Another self portrait!

[WFMartin]

Boy, It seems to be the week (or month) for self portraits! Everyone seems to be having so much fun doing those, I thought I'd get in on it.

I'm painting this in oil on 14" x 18" canvas. I used the same technique that I used for the portrait of my granddaughter. That involves no sketch. Printing out an 8" x 10" photo of a normal portrait of myself, then a slightly blurred version (gaussian blur of 7, in Photoshop), and then a greatly blurred version (gaussian blur of 25, in Photoshop).

Using the 8" x 10" with the greatest amount of blur, and upside down, I did the initial underpainting. using slightly darker mixes of the colors that I intend to be representing the final colors.

This one that I'm posting actually represents some work, done rightside up, of the slightly blurred version. So, I'm actually into the second phase.

I'm reasonably pleased with the progress, and the fact that I wear glasses is sort of being represented in the painting automatically by doing it this way. I'm actually amazed. What a great way to begin a portrait! I'm really enjoying this. (Never mind that it's MY ugly mug--wrinkles, gray hair, bags under the eyes, and all). I guess they call that "character," huh?

Bill:D

[artbabe21]

Lookin' good Bill, and that's far from an ugly mug---I certainly admire your unusual approach!!

[Isabella]

Holy cow Bill! This is great!! Now if I understand this, you are using the blurred version to guide you for the painting of the values/tones...? Thus you are avoiding "detail" for now.

I am guessing that painting it upside down keeps you from painting a "face," instead of getting the tones/etc. Yes/no?

This is inspiring. I think I might try one of my granddaughter!

P.S. No ugly mug here...:)

Would you mind telling us what colors comprise your palette?

:clap:

[guillot]

Hi Bill,

You should see me........I look like I've been working in a coal mine. I have charcoal all over me! Not too happy with myself just yet though.

This looks fantastic and shame on you.....that's not an ugly mug! I like the approach that you are using. I'm trying verdaccio's way, doing the charcoal drawing on canvas, then I'm going to TRY, let me say that again............TRY to do a verdaccio underpainting, G_d willing.

Keep going man..........you're doing wonderful!!


PS.......yes with all the excitement, you would think we had a competition going on around here or something :rolleyes:

Tina

[Isabella]

To Bill,
P.S. You know of course that grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children. :cat:

[JamieWG]

Bill, you handsome devil you, this is looking fabulous! I have to try that method on my next portrait!

Jamie

[seanbone]

Great Photoshop tip....I don't have the program yet, but I'm working on getting a copy. I like the look of this painting and can't wait to try the new technique. I wear contacts and find when I squint (to look for tones) that my eyes haze over too much from my contact lenses...blurring everything out way too much.

[DanaT]

Bill,

This is wonderful and so very colorful!

So tell me, is there a self-portrait project running around?

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by Isabella
To Bill,
P.S. You know of course that grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children. :cat:

Oh, Isabella,

You really nailed it with that comment! I have a plaque bearing that inscription hanging over my Lazy-Boy chair in the family room.

YES!

Bill:clap:

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by DanaT
Bill,

This is wonderful and so very colorful!

So tell me, is there a self-portrait project running around?

DanaT,

No, not really a "project" per se, but lots of us seem to be inspired to do it all of a sudden. Tina and Noble, just recently, and Zarathustra awhile ago. I just simply needed to do a portrait once more to prove to myself that this newfangled technique with which I had such success on my granddaughter's portrait wasn't just a fluke.

Although I've not yet brought this self portrait to a conclusion, I have a good feeling about it, and am enjoying it as much as I did when painting my granddaughter's portrait. The most challenging aspect of this portrait is the glasses. I have not yet done a portrait of anyone wearing glasses. I am not real confident of my future success in that respect.

It's really odd, that once you get into your "self portrait", you totally lose the concept that it's "YOU", and begin analyzing tones and hues to the extent that you tend to forget all about just what it is that you are painting. I believe that's a good thing, and is what I've been trying to do. That's why I turn my original upside down when doing my initial underpainting. It seems to have advantages for me! Sort of a "right brain" thing, actually.

And, thank you for all your comments. I'm really having fun with this!

Bill:)

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by Isabella

Would you mind telling us what colors comprise your palette?

:clap:

Isabella,

Sorry I ignored your request here.

My palette consists of the following colors: Ultramarine Blue, Prussian Blue, Thalo Blue, Burnt Umber, Burnt Sienna, Cadmium Red Deep, Venetian Red, Cadmium Red Light, Cadmium Orange, Yellow Ochre, and Flake White. ( in that order around my palette.)

I had laid out Rose Madder on my palette, but barely used it at all.

All are Grumbacher pretested oil colors, except Flake white and Yellow Ochre, which are Old Holland.

I was quite surprised at the advantages of Cadmium Orange! When mixed with a lot of white, it seems to lend itself very well to male fleshtone highlights.

Thank you for you interest.

Bill:)

[guillot]

Originally posted by WFMartin


It's really odd, that once you get into your "self portrait", you totally lose the concept that it's "YOU", and begin analyzing tones and hues to the extent that you tend to forget all about just what it is that you are painting. I believe that's a good thing, and is what I've been trying to do. That's why I turn my original upside down when doing my initial underpainting. It seems to have advantages for me! Sort of a "right brain" thing, actually.

Bill:)

Hi Bill, That was exactly my problem at the get go. Couldn't get past the concept that it WAS me! Turning your work upside down is a great technique to get the shapes correct and in proper form. Also, holding it into a mirror helps to, it reverses the image for you, and sometimes you can catch things that way as well.

Still working on mine. I'm in no rush.

Tina

[Isabella]

Ah, very good, thank you Bill! About the glasses. I just read somewhere a description of how one artist did his. I think he said he used a size 0 brush some liquin and white (very thin) and put them in last. (I guess his glasses were white rims.)

I know...instead of putting in the glasses, you could just pretend you've had lasik (eye) surgery and don't need glasses anymore! :D

[sonjalee]

Bill,

I think you are doing a great job here and the technique you are using definetly works for you!

Keep up the great job, I'm also looking forward to seeing your finished painting.

Sonja

[DanaT]

Originally posted by WFMartin


I was quite surprised at the advantages of Cadmium Orange! When mixed with a lot of white, it seems to lend itself very well to male fleshtone highlights.

Bill:)

Bill,

Cadmium Orange is wonderful. I bought some after I saw a book where Charles Reid, the watercolorist author, used it in some of his portrait demonstrations.

For a vivid redhead, cadmium orange and alizarin crimson makes the most wonderful hair color. And mixed with any other warm, its great for evoking warm skin tones.

[WFMartin]

Tina, DanaT, Sonja,

Thank you for your comments and insight. Isabella, I'm not quite sure just what I'm going to do when I get to painting the glasses. I may detail them to perfection, but I may just leave them rather impressionistic. I don't know.

This self-portrait thing is quite wierd, .....but FUN!

Thanks, all.

Bill:)

[WFMartin]

Jamie, and Seanbone,

I didn't mean to leave you two out.

Jamie, you'd have lots of fun with a portrait, especially a self-portrait.

Seanbone, Photoshop solves a ton of preparation problems, and you'll really appreciate it when you get it.

Bill:)

[Isabella]

Bill, please keep us updated. I'm eager to see how this turns out!

I have a plaque bearing that inscription hanging over my Lazy-Boy chair in the family room

I have been looking for that saying on a plaque for a few years now. I almost started to do it with needlepoint on a pillow. But, I just don't have the time.

My other favorite saying is....If I had known grandchildren were going to be so much fun...I would have had them first!

Ah, the pleasures of getting older.

[JamieWG]

Originally posted by WFMartin
Jamie, you'd have lots of fun with a portrait, especially a self-portrait.Bill:)

ROFL! Bill, those who know me know that I never let myself have fun with a portrait! But portraits are less torturous for me than they used to be. I've done 8 in the past month (still a couple of them to finish up) and I think that is enough torture for now. :evil: At some point, when I'm feeling especially masochistic, I will do a self-portrait! And sometime I would like to try the "working from blurry" technique. Looking forward to seeing you work this one through to completion.

Best wishes,
Jamie

[snakum]

Wow ... there must be something in the water lately. It seems everyone is doing self-portraits lately. I've always thought they were excellent preparation for attending life-drawing sessions. I think I started a trend.

For my next trend ... nude, full-length self-portraits. If we learn nothing from those (except that we all need to hit the gym) at least we'll have plenty to laugh about for the next few weeks.

OK Bill, you go first. Lets get those clothes off and get in front of a mirror man! I'm right behind you ... :D

(That last sentance made me feel weird :rolleyes: )

Minh "Nude Self-portrait" Thong

[David O]

Nake-um?

[Gia]

very good....love the refreshing colours!

[snakum]

Bill - could you speak a little bit about your technique on the face, i.e. skintone mixes, working sequence, etc? And especially, how did you build the folds in the skin?

Getting proper-looking wrinkles has been very difficult for me, and you did an excellent job on the folds in yours so I'd like to steal whatever info I can from you.

Danke Schon,

Minh

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by snakum
Bill - could you speak a little bit about your technique on the face, i.e. skintone mixes, working sequence, etc? And especially, how did you build the folds in the skin?

Getting proper-looking wrinkles has been very difficult for me, and you did an excellent job on the folds in yours so I'd like to steal whatever info I can from you.

Danke Schon,

Minh

Snakum,

Hey, no self-portrait nudes for THIS artist! Yeeeooowwwie!!

However, I will post a second WIP, and a close-up of my right eye (left side of the painting) where I'm working on the wrinkles. Actually, this is rather a good likeness of my mug. Sort of the "George Jones" wrinkles, you might say.

Bill;)

[WFMartin]

And, Snakum,

Here's the closeup of the above WIP.

Wrinkles are hard to do, but take your time, and blend, blend, blend. No super-hard lines. After all, it really is skin, and that's soft.

If you think this is cool, let me know, and I'll post a more detailed description of my method.

Bill:D

[Isabella]

Bill, this is terrific!!:clap: Excellent job on the glasses. Bet that was difficult.

[WFMartin]

Isabella,

The glasses, as well as a lot of other stuff, is just roughed in, so far. The eye on the right side (my left eye) looks pretty droopy, and needs lots of work. I have to work on everything lots more.

I'm glad that I have such a George Jones face, as I'm getting lots of experience on wrinkles. Sounds kind of wierd, but it's fun working on this.

I'll post more as this progresses.

Bill:D

[Isabella]

Sounds kind of wierd, but it's fun working on this

I can imagine! It's fun just watching the progress. I just find it so informative when someone does a WIP like this. The conversation swirling around it is usually loaded with tidbits of information.

Nothing wrong with wrinkles. I've earned every one of mine and danged proud of them! Now the gray sprouts growing out of my head, I blame on my children.

[guillot]

Bill, you handsome devil you!! Super Fantastic job!!! I love the way you have handled everything here. The glasses are great, the wrinkles, the skin tones, just everything!! Congrats on a job well done!!!

Tina

[snakum]

WOW! :clap:

I'm not usually one of those 'back-patting' 'goo-goo' posters but this is excellent, IMHO.

Yes, yes ... details ... details? How you git dem wrinkles?

Minh

[Tay]

Bill, I am enjoying your WIP so much. It is really looking wonderful. I had read about this method and have been considering trying it. Now that I have the digi camera figured out I need to get photoshop. Is it hard to use? I'm a computer flunky.

A funny thing: I tried smearing vasaline over the lenses of an old pair of glasses to get the 'blurred' affect. Well it blurred everything so much I couldn't hit the paint on the palete with the brush.

I look forward to seeing your completed (and any steps inbetween) portrait.

[David O]

Tay;
You look kinda young. Does your Dad know you are using his computer?

WF;
A George Jones face is a fine thing to have. I like your painting.

[Tay]

David O,
The little head is my oldest daughter. I use the camera so there are no good pictures of me.

Bill,
would you post the blurred photo that you used as your initial reference?

[WFMartin]

Minh,

I first want to address your question regarding the technique I have been using for skin folds/wrinkles.

I am posting a 4-up progress schematic.

Upper left: Using a small, round brush, mix up some Burnt Umber with some Ultramarine Blue, with maybe a touch of Cad Red Deep to keep it warm. Paint in the crease hard and heavy.

Upper right: With the same brush, cleaned, pick up some white mixed with Venetian Red, Burnt Sienna, and perhaps a touch of Yellow Ochre (whatever you feel the local area demands, colorwise). Use this to paint along the edges of the crease.

Lower left: Soften more with the same brush, blending out from the crease with some strokes, and following the crease with others. Keep most of the strokes parallel with the crease.

Lower right" With a small, clean, flat brush, drag it LIGHTLY over the entire "build" of color (the crease and the surrounding painted area) running parallel with the crease.

Cadmium Orange and Cadmium Red Light are also intermixed with the other colors mentioned, for more or less warmth in the skin tones.

That's about it.

Bill :)

[Isabella]

Woah! That was a great schematic! Do you teach painting? You should! :)

[WFMartin]

Tay,

As you requested, I'm posting the greatly blurred photo from which I did my initial sketch, using it upside down as I painted from it, as I mentioned.

Isabella. No, I don't teach painting; I'm too busy LEARNING it! LOL. But I used to teach techniques related to the lithographic industry. HS., Jr. High, Voc School, Ariz State Univ. Glad you appreciated my little graphic.

My painting is really coming together, now. It's one of those that I'll find things to fiddle with forever, I'm afraid, but when I'm done I'll post the final version. Maybe another WIP, yet, as well.

Bill:D

[guillot]

Bill, thanks for sharing your detailed process!!! You've done such a wonderful job on this :D

Tina

[Isabella]

when I'm done I'll post the final version.

Please do! I'm eager to see it. Also eager to see another WIP. It's so educational.

:)

[snakum]

Wow ... thanks Bill!

I've been having trouble with wrinkles, as I have a few between my eyes near my forehead. Thanks for the tip!

Minhberg Thongstein

[WFMartin]

For those who have been interested in my posting another installment of my self portrait, I have just photographed the results of my work this morning and afternoon.

Using the same palette that I described previously, I accomplished some more work to the face area. I still have the shirt to refine, and the background to put some finishing touches on.

Here is the latest version of my mug.

Bill:D

[Isabella]

Gracious! This is awesome Bill! You have just done such a terrific job on this! Thanks for posting again, I was wondering how it was coming along.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by Isabella
Gracious! This is awesome Bill! You have just done such a terrific job on this! Thanks for posting again, I was wondering how it was coming along.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you Isabella. It may sound odd to say this, but I'm just enjoying the heck out of doing this! Never mind whose mug it is. I just gave the last portrait that I did, which was of my granddaughter, to her yesterday, for Valentines Day. She enjoyed it (she's 4 yrs. old), but my son and his wife really appreciated the improvement that I've made in portraits in the past few years. And they loved the painting, too.

This technique of working from a blurred image is the key. Apparently the first one (my granddaughter) was not just a fluke, because this one seems to be progressing equally satisfactorily.

I work my regular job during the week, and don't get to paint much except on weekends, so the progress on this doesn't move as quickly as does work by other painters who are full time artists.

My son, (Mishell's dad) has as his occupation, a quite unusual job. So, for a real HOOT, check out his website: http://www.illusionarmoring.com/, and tell me--is this not also some cool art?

Bill:D

[artbabe21]

Bill, I am currently struggling with my own self portrait challenge and your WIP has been so informative!! The blurred thing is the squint thing and the upside down is the Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain exercise as I see it and these are such wonderful tools to aid with portraits and you have put them together in a way that nobody I know ever has!!

On the folds or smile lines...I assume you do this wet on wet...how do you not make a muddy mess? By doing it very carefully??? Thanks so much for that demonstration, makes a lot of sense!!
Great portrait, you are very talented!!

[guillot]

Cathleen, with the wet-on-wet thing, just from my experience, I believe alla prima is the same thing. Someone please explain if I'm wrong here. Wet on wet you still work all at once, or at least I have at times, mostly all of the time. Maybe the difference is that wet-in-wet you can still come back the next day and work some more before it's dry, with alla prima.......all at once to the finish. I've done both, and I find that when it comes to detail in these processes, a controlled hand helps. Very carefully laid strokes and careful blending to prevent muddy excursions.

Bill, your link didn't work for me. I would love to see what you are talking about, can you check the reference for us????? PRETTY PLEASE??? Your portrait is gorgeous, to say the least!!!! Be proud of your accomplishments, we are proud of you :D

TIna

[JamieWG]

Bill, I love seeing your fabulous progress. Wow. Excellent skin tones too, and I love your blues in the background and shirt.

Jamie

[shrinkinviolet]

Ah, but blurring it gets rid of most of the wrinkles! Good idea;) :clap: Cheaper than a plastic surgeon.

[WFMartin]

The "wrinkle" technique is a wet in wet process. However, it is performed as a layer over an existing underpainting. Therefore, it probably should not be considered an alla prima technique, per se, as it utilizes the previously dried underpainting. But, yes, the method used for creating the wrinkles is wet in wet.

Sorry the link to my son's website was incorrect. I think it was because a comma got included at the end of the address. Here it is again. This time I'll check it out after I post it.

Here it is, once more. http://www.illusionarmoring.com/

Thank you, all for commenting on my WIP of this painting. I am having lots of fun, and getting lots of comments from my family. My grandchildren seem to like it. "That's YOU, Grandpa!" they say.

Try the link again.

Bill:)

[artbabe21]

Originally posted by WFMartin
The "wrinkle" technique is a wet in wet process. However, it is performed as a layer over an existing underpainting. Therefore, it probably should not be considered an alla prima technique, per se, as it utilizes the previously dried underpainting.

Bill,
So the only part dried is the underpainting then...that's what I was getting at, it appeared you were working wet into wet with no drying between your steps and I was thinking how well you did it w/o taking the original darks out!thanks...:)

[guillot]

Cool website Bill :cool: !!!!!!!!!

Tina

[ginatec]

Hi Bill
This second portrait is great...I also loved the first one of your grandaughter. It has been very helpful watching the step by step. I am going to try this upside down method soon!
Loved the web site...he is so clever to make all that armour

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by artbabe21
Bill, I am currently struggling with my own self portrait challenge and your WIP has been so informative!! The blurred thing is the squint thing and the upside down is the Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain exercise as I see it and these are such wonderful tools to aid with portraits and you have put them together in a way that nobody I know ever has!!

On the folds or smile lines...I assume you do this wet on wet...how do you not make a muddy mess? By doing it very carefully??? Thanks so much for that demonstration, makes a lot of sense!!
Great portrait, you are very talented!!

Artbabe21,

Yes, the blurred image is a version of the "squint-to-see-shapes" idea, and the upside-down idea is mine, which certainly does use the right side of the brain approach. These are both methods of creating a situation where the artist gets involved in painting shapes instead of things.

Mixing mud is a statement which sometimes gets misunderstood. Most of the items we see every day in the real world are of a neutral color (which some may term, "mud"), slightly skewed toward a particular hue. Most persons' flesh tones are actually nothing but gray with a slight bias toward red. (That's why an underpainting of gray or grayish-green works so well, when thinner layers of flesh tint get layered over it.)

You asked whether the wrinkle thing was just done very carefully. Yes, it was! I believe that we, as artists, often tend to minimize the effect of taking a great deal of time, and being careful when performing intricate operations. When you observe a painting that looks as though it had an enormous amount of time spent on it in getting it to look the way it does, chances are--it HAS had that amount of time! I don't think there's any kind of easy-out gimmick that can be substituted for great care and time. I used to think differently, but not any more. When my right brain kicks into this mode, an hour seems to pass like 5 minutes, and I am totally engrossed in the experience. I really do love the feeling.

I feel that I have gone from a very poor portrait painter to a fairly acceptable one, mainly because of points of interest and instruction that I have picked up on these forums. Thank you, ALL! And I feel the desire to pass along some of my revelations to anyone who might benefit from my experience.

Wow! Enough of this babble. Tina, thank you, and I enjoy seeing your work, too!

Bill :D

[WFMartin]

Well, I'm getting close to signing this one. I need a few touch-ups, yet, as I moved the glasses to square them up, and left a few thin areas as I repainted.

Thank you, everyone for enjoying this experience with me. Now that it's almost finished, I am going to need to think about what to do next. It'll probably be a watercolor, as I haven't done one in a while.

Bill:)

[guillot]

Originally posted by WFMartin
It'll probably be a watercolor, as I haven't done one in a while.

Bill:)

How ironic, I was just playing around with some watercolors. Have learned that, LOL........I don't have a watercolor clue :D

Tina

[WFMartin]

I don't know why it didn't upload my image, but I'll try once more.

Bill:)

[guillot]

Wow Bill, totally awesome!!! A beautiful piece of work you have done.

Tina

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by guillot
Wow Bill, totally awesome!!! A beautiful piece of work you have done.

Tina

Tina,

Thank you. Your comments are always welcome. How's your self portrait progressing?

Bill:)

[Tay]

Bill, have you given yourself a pat on the back yet? You certainly deserve one. Maybe you are headed in a new direction now. Your portrait is sensational. Is another portrait in the near future?

[artbabe21]

Bill....you handsome devil, thanks! I've learned a lot following your WIP and I appreciate your sharing it with all of us!!

[andyvry]

I've been following this thread with GREAT interest, Bill. What a magnificent piece of work. :clap: :clap: :clap: :D

andy.

[WFMartin]

Thank you, Cathleen, Tay, and Andy. I have a few touchups left to do, but basically it's complete now. I still have a couple of thin spots where I moved the glasses, leaving the old rims to be covered with paint. One layer wasn't quite enough.

Cathleen, I've recently been observing your work on the self-portrait, and may I be so bold as to say that you really have quite an attractive model from which to work! Portraits are really tough, but this technique of an upside-down blur has made it lots of fun. It seems to follow that if I can duplicate all the colors and blobs in that initial blur that I am then well on my way to achieving the final portrait--and without touching a pencil to a sketchpad or canvas, as well. It's all done with paint. It takes real guts on the first attempt, though.

Thanks all! It's been a pleasure for me.

Bill:D

[artbabe21]

Originally posted by WFMartin
Portraits are really tough, but this technique of an upside-down blur has made it lots of fun. It seems to follow that if I can duplicate all the colors and blobs in that initial blur that I am then well on my way to achieving the final portrait--and without touching a pencil to a sketchpad or canvas, as well. It's all done with paint.

Thanks{blush} Bill.....I am taking a painting class with a really good artist here who can actually paint & teach! He will have us massing in form this week, no drawing, so I will learn a lot & perhaps have the moxie to try the upside down blurred image, either for another self or of my daughters. Thanks for showing me another way!!

[DanaT]

Bill,

This portrait is really beautiful. It almost looks like a watercolor. I can't wait to see what you do when you paint a watercolor.

[WFMartin]

Everybody,

Thank you for all your comments. This has been a very enjoyable thread for me, posting my works in progress.

This is the last, and final version, I promise. It has had the final touch ups and is now signed. I will now be looking for a frame. My boys, daughters-in-law, and grandkids all seem to love it, and that surely pleases me!

Thanks, all, for observing this in progress.

Bill:D

[paintfool]

Well i DO feel humbled!! :D Way to go Bill! I can't tell you how much i've enjoyed all of these self portrait threads and this one is certainly no exception!!! You've inspired me! I will be attempting another self portrait very soon and i've learned valuable things here! I'm pretty excited about using your upside down, blurred method of developing the intitila shapes!
Great portrait, handsome guy! ;)
Thank you
Cheryl

PS please help me to rate this thread.

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by paintfool
Well i DO feel humbled!! :D Way to go Bill! I can't tell you how much i've enjoyed all of these self portrait threads and this one is certainly no exception!!! You've inspired me! I will be attempting another self portrait very soon and i've learned valuable things here! I'm pretty excited about using your upside down, blurred method of developing the intitila shapes!
Great portrait, handsome guy! ;)
Thank you
Cheryl

PS please help me to rate this thread.

Cheryl,

You are so, very welcome!! (And, thanks for the compliment.) For anyone who's having difficulty at all in painting portraits, this blurred upside-down approach really seems to solve many problems. It solves the problem that most of us have of painting "things", (eg. nose, ears, eyes, etc.) instead of painting "shapes", as we should be doing. It solves the problem of getting "too tight" too early, as the initial painting is one complete blur! That allows one to form some sharp edges, while selectively leaving some soft. And, I for one find it only short of a miracle that I never did a pencil sketch, at any time. I "formed" the initial blurred image with paint on the first application, and upside-down, to boot!

I am extremely excited about this method, and I'm surely willing to help anyone out with whatever suggestions I could supply, as I am quite sold on this technique, now.

Thanks, again, all!

Bill