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robertsloan2
01-07-2011, 12:19 AM
Here we go! I started the new thread since someone suggested it on the previous Johannes Vloothuis thread.
(http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12241932#post12241932)
Here's a link to the post where Johannes announced next Sunday's seascape demo and posted the reference photo he's using. Yum! I love that reference photo. He's a heck of a great photographer too!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12226362&postcount=585

And since the old thread was getting huge, here's a new one for discussing all our class projects from January classes and demos. Hope no one minds my just jumping the gun to start it.

jbercx
01-07-2011, 02:07 AM
Would be great if Johannes would also do a pallet knife demonstration.

marionh
01-07-2011, 03:09 AM
Thanks Robert.

Dharma_bum
01-07-2011, 03:34 AM
Would be great if Johannes would also do a pallet knife demonstration.

I don't think he uses a knife much. I think he commented that a knife tends to give random results, and that he would rather people make their marks in a more deliberate manner, at least until they can do it consistently.

Dan

Devonlass
01-07-2011, 08:36 AM
""That made me realize it's a nocturne palette. There's several really good deep darks at Value 9 and plenty of Value 7 and 8 colors as well as 5 and 6. It's just there's hardly anything in the 2-3 value range and very few 4's - so I tried something different.""
( don't know how to lift a quote from a previous posting, so I had to cut and paste your remarks - this was from one of your posts about 3 pages back in the old thread)

Robert, I'm puzzled by this statement, I took another look at my value finder and I don't see how there could be deep darks at value 9 when that is right next to value 10 which is white. Am I missing something, or not understanding what you are saying?

Davkin
01-07-2011, 09:23 AM
Your value scale is backwards from what Johannes uses, that's why the confusion. In Johannes' value scale (and most I've seen) White is #1 and black is #10.

David

Devonlass
01-07-2011, 10:55 AM
How can there be two values scales???? It either is the value or it isn't. I bought mine from Dakota and it's produced by the Color Wheel company. I'm horribly confused. It definitely shows white as value 10 and black as value 1. Help!!

Johannes - if you catch this post, please chip in with your thoughts.

susanc
01-07-2011, 11:12 AM
Thanks, Robert and Wendy! That felt like the never-ending thread.

Yes, the value scale is one area where two different ways are taught, depending on which art book you consult. Black is 1 in one book, or black is 10 in the another. (Warm vs. cool colors is another other area where there is some difference of opinion among art books.) Some of us learned one way, some the other. Art, I guess, is a bit on the rogue, creative side--unlike math which has one right answer. ;)

I'm not saying one is right or wrong, but maybe we could try to approach these concepts the Johannes way on this thread since we're hanging out here and it's a bit less confusing if we're all on the same page for now? I'm going to try my best, at least. :)

Davkin
01-07-2011, 11:13 AM
How can there be two values scales???? .

Because there is no one single standard. It's not regulated or anything. Some value scales don't even have ten steps, some have 9 some even have 5. The value scale that Johannes has adopted starts with white as #1 and ends with black as #10, so just renumber your Dakota value scale accordingly and the discussions here won't confuse you anymore. :D

David

Colorix
01-07-2011, 11:33 AM
1 = 10
2 = 9
3 = 8
4 = 7
5 = 6
6 = 5
7 = 4
8 = 3
9 = 2
10 = 1

Just turn the numbers around if you happen to have one where 1 is black and 10 is white.

robertsloan2
01-07-2011, 11:46 AM
I got a value finder from Daniel Smith that's numbered with 10 as white. So I took a Pigma Micron and renumbered it right in the middle of the swatches so that value 10 was black. Charlie got it right.

Whether you assign value 1 or value 10 to black is arbitrary. About half the time books will assign value 10 to white. But the general idea is the same and in discussing values in relation to his classes, it's easier to do it Johannes's way for clear communication with everyone - and for understanding his lessons. He will often mark the value range of an area on screen during a lesson, like 2-3 for the sky, 4-5 for the mid value and 6-7 for the mid darks. 8 is the deep dark in most of his paintings.

But all that bumps down to deeper colors in a nocturne. The range is the same but everything shifts down darker by two values with 8-9 being the darks.

Devonlass
01-07-2011, 12:08 PM
Well thanks everyone. No wonder I was confused when Johannes said to do evergreens no darker than Value 7 (Value 4 on my value scale). I couldn't understand why they should be so light, but I thought to myself (He knows what he's talking about, so it must be right!). It's been a struggle to make them Value 4 I can tell you!!!! I'm going to go off a renumber mine right now.

Johannes Instructor
01-07-2011, 12:55 PM
Would be great if Johannes would also do a pallet knife demonstration.
That will be next week if time allows

Johannes Instructor
01-07-2011, 12:56 PM
I don't think he uses a knife much. I think he commented that a knife tends to give random results, and that he would rather people make their marks in a more deliberate manner, at least until they can do it consistently.

Dan

You are very correct. I tend to design everything into intentional shapes.

robertsloan2
01-07-2011, 12:58 PM
Carol, that would be trippy trying to do evergreens in Value 4! Maybe in the far distance where they have lots of mauves in them. Hope it gets easier for you!

Here's my latest pastel landscape sketch. Something about this one bugs me. One thing is when I placed the horizon line so that it wouldn't cut the painting in half, I wound up placing the star in the middle vertically. Another is how the wood fence looks. A third is that the pastels just did not behave for me on this paper, they're medium-soft and filled the tooth much faster than the hard pastels I've been using on the unsanded paper. I think W&N pastels want grit on the surface.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jan-2011/70184-Star-Gate-Open-Photo.jpg
Star Gate Open
8" x 10"
Winsor & Newton soft pastels
Aquabee Bogus Recycled Rough Sketch Paper
Photo reference by Paula Ford

Johannes Instructor
01-07-2011, 01:01 PM
Your value scale is backwards from what Johannes uses, that's why the confusion. In Johannes' value scale (and most I've seen) White is #1 and black is #10.

David
Some scales refer to White as being the number 1 and Black number 10
Here is the scale I will be referring to:

Johannes Instructor
01-07-2011, 01:04 PM
I got a value finder from Daniel Smith that's numbered with 10 as white. So I took a Pigma Micron and renumbered it right in the middle of the swatches so that value 10 was black. Charlie got it right.

Whether you assign value 1 or value 10 to black is arbitrary. About half the time books will assign value 10 to white. But the general idea is the same and in discussing values in relation to his classes, it's easier to do it Johannes's way for clear communication with everyone - and for understanding his lessons. He will often mark the value range of an area on screen during a lesson, like 2-3 for the sky, 4-5 for the mid value and 6-7 for the mid darks. 8 is the deep dark in most of his paintings.

But all that bumps down to deeper colors in a nocturne. The range is the same but everything shifts down darker by two values with 8-9 being the darks.
The reason I prefer the 2,3 being mid light- 4,5 being mid-6,7 being dark is because we tend to count starting from 1 not counting backwards from 10. That way we think more in the light subconsciously than in the dark. Does that make sense?

Johannes Instructor
01-07-2011, 01:05 PM
Carol, that would be trippy trying to do evergreens in Value 4! Maybe in the far distance where they have lots of mauves in them. Hope it gets easier for you!

Here's my latest pastel landscape sketch. Something about this one bugs me. One thing is when I placed the horizon line so that it wouldn't cut the painting in half, I wound up placing the star in the middle vertically. Another is how the wood fence looks. A third is that the pastels just did not behave for me on this paper, they're medium-soft and filled the tooth much faster than the hard pastels I've been using on the unsanded paper. I think W&N pastels want grit on the surface.


Star Gate Open
8" x 10"
Winsor & Newton soft pastels
Aquabee Bogus Recycled Rough Sketch Paper
Photo reference by Paula Ford
Is there a way you can avoid the fence post from stopping right in the middle?

Devonlass
01-07-2011, 01:08 PM
Johannes, I agree it makes more sense, but I didn't understand that it wasn't a standard numbering system. I'm still quite new at this and was very confused! From now on I'll be on the same page as you (and apparently most other people)

Johannes Instructor
01-07-2011, 01:10 PM
Things are looking quite positive about The Artist's Magazine being involved in my classes. The last information I got from head office is that they are drawing up a written agreement. It is quite possible we start the Composition course the weekend of January 15 & 16. Stay tuned. I have not forgotten you and am really looking forward to being part of your artistic growth. In the meantime to keep the candle burning I will do the Seascape Demo this Sunday.

flowergram
01-07-2011, 01:17 PM
An attempt. What I think I'm getting (sort of):

abstract shapes: the trees were a definite pie, I rounded the point at the left and chopped them off on the right.

melodic lines: except for the horizon, I think it's too far away?

gradation: failing on the trees...

texture: might be ok...

move the viewers eye: the clouds make me dizzy! maybe too much movement?

Anyway I decided to stop and get opinions since Jahannes said all bets were off with sunrises (this is) and sunsets. There is to be a sailboat in the lower left but I wanted to make sure I wouldn't have to paint it out...
photo ref attached.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jan-2011/96940-sleepingontheboat1.jpg

The lower corners are the same, don't know what to do about them.

Are the clouds creating a stacking effect?
Are the trees the right value?
Are there tree reflecttions in the water when the sun is behind the hill?
Is the water dark enough?
Anything else?

Thanks for any comments!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jan-2011/96940-01-06-2011-002.jpg

flowergram
01-07-2011, 01:35 PM
to keep the candle burning

What candle? We're sitting here at the bonfire, potatoes and fish wrapped in foil, steaks on a grill for those that wish, I'll bring a salad...

Colorix
01-07-2011, 01:55 PM
Robert, you know what? Maybe lose the star? ... it is sort of 'too cute', and will grab *all* attention, also being so pointed. A close-up of the star itself would work great, as an 'outdoor portrait' of it.

Flowergram, that is a really tricky reference, as you have to make basically everyting up, the ref is really monochromatic blue. One thing Johannes mentioned early on, I think, is that it is best to work from good references. The straight bg line isn't a problem, as he said there can (should?) be one straight line somewere, to provide stability. You've clearly thought of all he's been teaching, but the lack of info in your ref photo is making it more difficult for you. Best advice I can give you is that you go and find a ref that has most of what you want to say already in it, and then make small adjustments to get it just right. Considering the ref, you've done miracles in the painting.

Johannes Instructor
01-07-2011, 02:25 PM
Robert, you know what? Maybe lose the star? ... it is sort of 'too cute', and will grab *all* attention, also being so pointed. A close-up of the star itself would work great, as an 'outdoor portrait' of it.

Flowergram, that is a really tricky reference, as you have to make basically everyting up, the ref is really monochromatic blue. One thing Johannes mentioned early on, I think, is that it is best to work from good references. The straight bg line isn't a problem, as he said there can (should?) be one straight line somewere, to provide stability. You've clearly thought of all he's been teaching, but the lack of info in your ref photo is making it more difficult for you. Best advice I can give you is that you go and find a ref that has most of what you want to say already in it, and then make small adjustments to get it just right. Considering the ref, you've done miracles in the painting.

Colorix is right. Notice the strong reference photo I will be using for my seascape painting. Many many photographs must be tossed out before you find a treasure chest. I remember the first time I visited Jim Wilcox in his studio and I was left alone for a while. He had a stack of 6X4 inch photos by the side of his easel that I would die for. I felt like pocketing them all. No kidding there were about 50 great photos to use for paintings. Again this to me was a confirmation that we need strong ref photos. Our first class on composition that I am aiming for that may begin next weekend from this will be about forming a criteria of what photos to choose. Of course this is subjective to each one of us but myabe if I give you my personal ideas it may give you some insight.

Johannes Instructor
01-07-2011, 02:48 PM
An attempt. What I think I'm getting (sort of):

abstract shapes: the trees were a definite pie, I rounded the point at the left and chopped them off on the right.

melodic lines: except for the horizon, I think it's too far away?

gradation: failing on the trees...

texture: might be ok...

move the viewers eye: the clouds make me dizzy! maybe too much movement?

Anyway I decided to stop and get opinions since Jahannes said all bets were off with sunrises (this is) and sunsets. There is to be a sailboat in the lower left but I wanted to make sure I wouldn't have to paint it out...
photo ref attached.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jan-2011/96940-sleepingontheboat1.jpg

The lower corners are the same, don't know what to do about them.

Are the clouds creating a stacking effect?
Are the trees the right value?
Are there tree reflecttions in the water when the sun is behind the hill?
Is the water dark enough?
Anything else?

Thanks for any comments!



I don't see the shape of the green hill being abstract. It looks too close to being a triangle.

robertsloan2
01-07-2011, 02:55 PM
Johannes, thank you. You've always got exactly the right comment to change everything, like a good editor looking at a story of mine. That's what I'll do next time, forget about trying to put the star as the placement point but treat the end of the fence as it.

Charlie, yeah, that's an interesting idea. I will try a version of this without using the star. Like the tree in the flower meadow, I wanted to do a version that did include the star but I can see how much more leeway I'd have with this scene without it. That'll be cool. Also for some reason the fence will feel more movable without it.

Star Gate Open is no longer reworkable due to its surface, but I'm definitely going to try it again at least once, probably a couple more times because I like it. This month I'm working on those Spotlight references as a series to get more familiar with landscapes so even when I don't use critique on the same painting, I'll definitely get to apply it on the next ones.

Here's the last, the very last final version of Autumn Ramble. After this I'm hanging it up and I'll take out a new piece of Colourfix. I can't get so hung up on reworking the same painting that I don't do any more good ones on sanded paper with Unisons.

My Unisons box is still open whispering color madness into my brain so I'll possibly do another one today too.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jan-2011/70184-Autumn-Ramble-Final-Jan-7-2010-sm.jpg
Autumn Ramble
8" x 11" approx.
Unison soft pastels on dark brown Art Spectrum Colourfix sanded pastel paper.
Photo reference by Paula Ford.
Final version of this painting!

susanc
01-07-2011, 05:03 PM
Things are looking quite positive about The Artist's Magazine being involved in my classes.

If this page had been paper, I would have worn it out, checking as often as I did for this news flash...Congratulations!

robertsloan2
01-07-2011, 07:55 PM
Things are looking quite positive about The Artist's Magazine being involved in my classes. The last information I got from head office is that they are drawing up a written agreement. It is quite possible we start the Composition course the weekend of January 15 & 16. Stay tuned. I have not forgotten you and am really looking forward to being part of your artistic growth. In the meantime to keep the candle burning I will do the Seascape Demo this Sunday.

Yay! That's so fantastic! I'm looking forward to the Composition course so much. Thank you! This is wonderful news!

So that's the candle burning comment. Yep. We're all standing around the roaring bonfire toasting Johannes in a loud and hearty voice. Skoal!

susanc
01-07-2011, 09:18 PM
Yep. We're all standing around the roaring bonfire toasting Johannes in a loud and hearty voice. Skoal!
I'm way too serious too get pulled into these things (yeah, right), ;) , but as long as we're at it, can we make it a bonfire at the beach, somewhere near bodega bay because Colleen has acquainted us with that area through her artwork? :) Sitting around a roaring fire at the beach as the sun is setting is definitely one of the most enjoyable ways to end a work week...

jbercx
01-08-2011, 03:11 AM
You are very correct. I tend to design everything into intentional shapes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbercx
Would be great if Johannes would also do a pallet knife demonstration.
That will be next week if time allows


Thank you!
There are a lot of us using the knife, or making complete paintings with a knife only.

JimS
01-08-2011, 09:41 AM
Talking of painting with a knife...

Here is a chap, Harley Crossley, who paints with knives only..some amazing work here...Truly shows the versatility of a knife when used correctly..

http://www.harley-crossley-studio.co.uk/browse_gallery.html/s/0?osCsid=hbttbarob68ir4l4e1nm5bc464

jbercx
01-08-2011, 09:59 AM
Hi Jim, thanks for the link. BTW, Esmiralinda does also makes a lot of great Knife paintings. Check her website! And how about BrianSimons...

Johannes Instructor
01-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Here Robert. I found some free time. This is now whispering not shouting. I also removed the tangent tree-mountain

crazywoman53
01-08-2011, 02:04 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/137465-Country-Winter.jpg

18 x 24 on Wallis paper, Assortment of pastels. This is my first official painting since taking Johannes classes. I am not sure about the fence on the right side. It looked too empty with out it but not sure the fence is the right thing to put there. Any comments/critiques are welcome.

luvs2paint1
01-08-2011, 02:16 PM
:thumbsup: Robert, you have very nice color varigation in this painting. The path is beautiful, nice movement and I love the warm and cool colors.
I think that maybe the thing that is bothering you is that the post seems to divide the painting in half. The cross bars on the fence are all the same width and distance apart too. There's a definate triangle where the midground hill and fence rail by the star meet. I've tried cropping it in photoshop but can't come up with a solution. It seems something is always in the middle, which is one of my big problems. The grass line could be more of a melodic line too.
I am very interested to see what Joe has to say, and to see if I know what I'm talking about. : )
I also want to tell you that you rock and are an expert note taker.

and now that I wrote this, suddenly pages 2 and 3 appear where I didn't see them before. shaking my head

luvs2paint1
01-08-2011, 02:18 PM
So for class today can we go to www.cyberartlearning.com and click on the yellow school bus? Will that take us to class?

robertsloan2
01-08-2011, 02:25 PM
Thank you both! I'm so glad that one's finished - many thanks for all the helpful critiques I had on it.

Today I started a new one using Pan Pastels. These pastels come in short little pots that look like makeup compacts. You apply them with special Sofft micropore sponges and tools that work more like brushes in oil or acrylic painting than the usual direct application of pastels sticks. I did this painting entirely with the Wedge Sponge, which works like a 5/8" flat brush in painting.

Critique and comments greatly appreciated! I have this up on my easel right now and it'd still be fairly easy to make changes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/70184-A-Wintry-Shore-pans-Jan-8-2011.jpg
A Wintry Shore
Pan Pastels on Clairefontaine PastelMat Buttercup color (darker gold)
Photo reference by Paula Ford

This time I don't have anything happening dead center in it.

luvs2paint1
01-08-2011, 02:29 PM
Wow, this is gorgeous Robert. Maybe soften the edge on the purple background hill. Are the pan pastels dusty?

luvs2paint1
01-08-2011, 02:33 PM
There is class today, Jan. 8 at 3 PM EST...right?

Colorix
01-08-2011, 02:48 PM
C&C most welcome!

Don't know how the below painting will show up here, it is a night-time shot... (daylight being scarce up here at the 60th). It might be too 'icecreamy' (pistachio, blueberry, lemon, and orange, plus candy icecream :) )

I'm afraid this is an overworked pastel (it fought back), size 12x16", on Fisher 400 paper (similar to Uart 400):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/117343-Rosersberg_Herczfeld_iz.jpg


It started life as a much smaller sketch, flipped, and with the rocks just at the edge of the NFZ (no-fly zone) efficiently blocking entrance into the painting, and with the shadows of the rocks dark and not joined, and a blob of dark opposite shore right at the margin. Mercifully, I could not continue working on it, as the light changed from sunny to cloudy. This is about how much I manage to do en plein air, and although it looks awful (one just have to love the spectator walking up on one at this stage...), there's some good info there I can use for the studio painting. Pastel, ca 6x9":

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/117343-Rosersberg_sketch.jpg

Charlie

Ruthie57
01-08-2011, 02:57 PM
Crazywoman, I love your painting! I agree you need something to break up the expanse of snow and I think the fence is a good idea. Rightly or wrongly I just want to tweak the second fencepost from the foreground and set it at an opposing angle to the first!
There's a lot of depth in it and the beautifully rendered stream leads the eye very well to the house. It's great!

Robert, already commented on your pan pastel one elsewhere but I'll say again that I really like it. It has a lovely loose feel, the differing hues of the trees are very pleasing and it is a very intelligent crop of the ref photo!

The following, which I did today, I've already posted in the landscape challenge thread and the pastel forum. But I'm putting it here too as I would like some *Johannes type* critique of it. Hope you'll oblige....
It's soft pastels on pastelmat about 11x8".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/189061-Distant_Mountains.jpg

Chrisp47
01-08-2011, 03:02 PM
There is class today, Jan. 8 at 3 PM EST...right?

No class today demo tomorrow, Jan 9 at 3:00 EST

Ruthie57
01-08-2011, 03:03 PM
Charlie, it must've taken me so long to type my post we ended up cross posting!
Maybe this is *icecreamy* but You can use these colours and still make a winner where others would, I fear, flounder! I love it. The flip and the re-positioning of the rocks is definitely an improvement on the plein air piece but I can see you've taken a lot from that piece, which is what it was done for, yes?
I love the elegant trees in this and the rocks are great! To me the line of the shore and rocks is so melodic it makes me sing! (erm, sorry, maybe going over the top there but you know what I mean!)

Chrisp47
01-08-2011, 03:05 PM
Here is my first completed painting since Johannes instruction:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/165919-winterbarn.jpg

and the reference I used from the RIL, Thanks ElleZee
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/165919-winterbarnref.jpg

acyrlic on 11"X14" panel

Colorix
01-08-2011, 03:09 PM
Christine, what a lovely winter scene! Love the warms with the cools, it really brightens this up. Possibly a wee bit too much, as the light is ambiguous, with bushes indicating sunlight. Is the bg mostly in shadow? Possibly, there could be darker snow-shadows in the fg, if it is more lit. The fence works well to lead the eye to the building, but the stream is such a lovely lead by itself. Maybe some directional variations in the snow?

I love it!

Charlie


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/137465-Country-Winter.jpg

18 x 24 on Wallis paper, Assortment of pastels. This is my first official painting since taking Johannes classes. I am not sure about the fence on the right side. It looked too empty with out it but not sure the fence is the right thing to put there. Any comments/critiques are welcome.

Johannes Instructor
01-08-2011, 03:22 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/137465-Country-Winter.jpg

18 x 24 on Wallis paper, Assortment of pastels. This is my first official painting since taking Johannes classes. I am not sure about the fence on the right side. It looked too empty with out it but not sure the fence is the right thing to put there. Any comments/critiques are welcome. Now that is a nice painting. The fence is fine. It is downplayed and leads us to the focal area. The stream line is definitely melodic. You have nice soft edges in the back ground. You could make the structure stronger though by either enlarging it or adding more elements to tell a story. I feel the snow is too yellow. Way to go. Lots of hits!

Johannes Instructor
01-08-2011, 03:24 PM
Thank you both! I'm so glad that one's finished - many thanks for all the helpful critiques I had on it.

Today I started a new one using Pan Pastels. These pastels come in short little pots that look like makeup compacts. You apply them with special Sofft micropore sponges and tools that work more like brushes in oil or acrylic painting than the usual direct application of pastels sticks. I did this painting entirely with the Wedge Sponge, which works like a 5/8" flat brush in painting.

Critique and comments greatly appreciated! I have this up on my easel right now and it'd still be fairly easy to make changes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/70184-A-Wintry-Shore-pans-Jan-8-2011.jpg
A Wintry Shore
Pan Pastels on Clairefontaine PastelMat Buttercup color (darker gold)
Photo reference by Paula Ford

This time I don't have anything happening dead center in it.

Triangle alert! top right. add another smaller conifer. That will solve it

Colorix
01-08-2011, 03:31 PM
Hi Ruthie,

Thank you for your lovely comment on mine!

Now, to yours: Love how the mountain is hinted at, very much a background thing. You sure have a delicate hand! The 'Child Tree' wants to grow up to be just like 'Papa Tree, so he bends the same way at the tip. Really lovely colour variations in the trees, Child tree definitely being further away, and you've watched out for the triangles of the big negative spaces of the lake. So, what is your center of interest?

How many landscapes have you painted now, all of 5? You're doing great!

Charlie



The following, which I did today, I've already posted in the landscape challenge thread and the pastel forum. But I'm putting it here too as I would like some *Johannes type* critique of it. Hope you'll oblige....
It's soft pastels on pastelmat about 11x8".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/189061-Distant_Mountains.jpg

winecountry
01-08-2011, 04:21 PM
hope you don't mind that I did this, I find it easier to show than tell these things... if you print out the pics and compare them you will find the differences. Besides the other suggestions I have some. BTW feel free to trash this if you don't agree.

Biggest problem I see is there seems to be 3 focal points...better to choose one
see pink circles
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/103030-revise_focal-1.jpg

Here are some issues I addressed there are other tweaks I'll let you find them but these are the main ones
...
I opened the water at the bottom still not great but think about the whole thing I added some little refinements all along the banks

moved the big bush in from the nfz and toned it down so the eye can travel up the stream

blued and lessened contrast on a lot of places...the bushes midground on the left for one.

Made the barn bigger, but lightened it , added some of the colors in the rest of the painting to it. softened edges

added a bit of snow to the trees on the left between the red bushes and the barn to help lead the eye over from that clump to the rest of the painting
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/103030-revise_2.jpg

I really love your color sense, and you have that well in hand IMO very harmonious

Colorix
01-08-2011, 04:24 PM
Hi Robert, cool how well the pans lend themselves to this method, lovely masses with enough variegation to make us believe these are trees! My eye goes to the distant purple mass, as the sky is so light, the contrast is there. The diagonal of the trees, it makes a near triangle of the sky, something more sticking up into the sky would solve that. You and the Pans are definitely friends, you handle them beautifully!

Charlie



Critique and comments greatly appreciated! I have this up on my easel right now and it'd still be fairly easy to make changes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/70184-A-Wintry-Shore-pans-Jan-8-2011.jpg
A Wintry Shore
Pan Pastels on Clairefontaine PastelMat Buttercup color (darker gold)
Photo reference by Paula Ford

This time I don't have anything happening dead center in it.

Ruthie57
01-08-2011, 04:26 PM
Thanks Charlie! It's so hard trying to do trees without repeating any shapes/angles etc. I was so concerned about not letting *child tree's* tip point straight up that I didn't notice the similarity. I actively decided to face it that way so as not to make it point towards the other one!
Centre of interest is s'posed to be the RH conifer, around the horizon level which is at eye level. Too far over isn't it. Maybe I should put another tallish one in next to it, maybe just a little further back.
I've actually painted more landscapes than any other subject I've tackled. It's just they are so much harder, for me, than animals, portraits, figures etc. 5 "reasonable" ones, maybe.

Johannes Instructor
01-08-2011, 04:26 PM
Real good lead in!. You managed to avoid the eye from going to the right. That was well done. One thing I had not mentioned and I will now is that we should always make the plane changes very clear. The way you had it the evergreens that are from a closer plane somehow bled into the everegreens that are in the very far back plane. If you see my edited version you can see the clear distinction of planes.

Colorix
01-08-2011, 04:43 PM
Johannes, thank you! Your suggestion is much better (of course!) -- I sort of only went halfway, if that, to break up that one landmass into two (it is one IRL, but that is too boring and too straight). Funny, it was there in the sketch, I did think about it then, but it had flown my mind.

Thanks a lot!

Charlie


Real good lead in!. You managed to avoid the eye from going to the right. That was well done. One thing I had not mentioned and I will now is that we should always make the plane changes very clear. The way you had it the evergreens that are from a closer plane somehow bled into the everegreens that are in the very far back plane. If you see my edited version you can see the clear distinction of planes.

crazywoman53
01-08-2011, 04:54 PM
Charlie your use of color always amazes me. I aspire to do as well as you one day. I think I am getting braver with color till I see your work and then mine looks bla lol.. Is the finished piece a flip of the PA? I was a little confused there.

Ruthie I love your foreground trees. It might be your photo but the mountian almost looks like a ghost to me. I'd like it to be a bit more prominant against the sky. It is hard to comment on the mountain J/style as I can't make it out.

Chris I like how you interpreted your ref photo. I'd like to see the road widened just a bit in the NFZ so it lays down a bit more. Not sure why but I think your clouds distract from this painting. The foreground is so beautifully painted and then the clouds seem to yank my eye away from them. I could almost do without them completely. Your barn has a lot of character to it.. nice touch with the ladder.

robertsloan2
01-08-2011, 05:10 PM
Charlie, thank you for that suggestion! Something in that painting wasn't quite right and you hit on it perfectly. I can do that easily, though might want to wait till tomorrow as my light is changing a lot right now - colors are going to be off if I continue.

Your painting is gorgeous. Johannes's suggestion is spot on, a tweak that'll make it even more glorious. I love your style. I need to do one in Pans using your mad colors one of these times, combine the techniques. Since I've gone through most or all of the landscapes in the Spotlight now, I can start recycling them and doing new variations on them - a Colourist one is definitely in the offing.

This month I'm going to be doing landscapes almost every day, so forgive me for so many postings!

I squeezed in another small one before the light changed:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/70184-A-Springtime-Walk-Jan-8-2011-Pans.jpg
A Springtime Walk
6" x 8"
Pan Pastels on Sienna PastelMat
Photo reference by Paula Ford

Inspired by a critique suggesting I get rid of the spring green highlight in my big Pans winter painting. I liked it, so thought I'd put it in its proper season doing the spring painting. If something comes out cool and out of place, it makes sense to just redo it in better context.

Critiques appreciated whether I make changes or apply them to future paintings! I will internalize all these principles!

Ruthie57
01-08-2011, 05:16 PM
Thanks for your comments Crazywoman. Well my plan was for the mountains to be far far away (just like in the photo, lol) so that is how I wanted them. The trees, particularly the one on the right, should be the area of interest in this but I think I may have failed and will go back tomorrow and maybe add some more.

I don't have photoshop but I have found that windows paint has a colour picker so I've been having a play with it and added a couple more trees.

Any comments on better/worse etc? (As you can see it's very crudely done!)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/189061-practice.jpg

Colorix
01-08-2011, 06:13 PM
Ruthie, I truly thought you'd painted only a few landscapes, sorry for the misunderstanding. I like what you did in Paint, yes it is better! This is really a difficult reference photo, composition-wise. One of those one has to fight and redecorate a lot.

Paint programme is nice to have, so much easier to test ideas with it!

Edit: was typing, didn't see Johannes's post until now. How clear the point is -- landscaping (not re-decorating).



Any comments on better/worse etc? (As you can see it's very crudely done!)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/189061-practice.jpg

Johannes Instructor
01-08-2011, 06:15 PM
Opps I had left a negative traingle shape between the evergreens. Also I worked on it a bit more to have the gradation of the shape.

winecountry
01-08-2011, 06:24 PM
Ruthie this hint is from all my seascape painting, if you leave the horizon line of the water that hard and dark you will always have a problem...so you have to find ways to soften it and strangely warm it just a bit....it could have haze or it can lighten at that end so the values are not so different...several ways to solve it...other wise it will just split the painting into sections.

PattiLou
01-08-2011, 07:00 PM
Ruthie I love your foreground trees. It might be your photo but the mountian almost looks like a ghost to me. I'd like it to be a bit more prominant against the sky. It is hard to comment on the mountain J/style as I can't make it out.

The painting and reference look like Mount Redoubt (a volcano) and this is how it looks in real life, at least when I visited ("like a ghost", visible, but sometimes floating.

I like your painting Ruthie, makes me want to visit Alaska again.

Johannes Instructor
01-08-2011, 11:33 PM
Now that is a nice painting. The fence is fine. It is downplayed and leads us to the focal area. The stream line is definitely melodic. You have nice soft edges in the back ground. You could make the structure stronger though by either enlarging it or adding more elements to tell a story. I feel the snow is too yellow. Way to go. Lots of hits!

I had some free time so I tweeked with your painting. It is pretty straught foward. Check out the negative painting in the background.

Davkin
01-09-2011, 12:09 AM
Just posting this so everybody knows I'm still here and trying to learn. C&C's are welcome but keep in mind this is an attempt at a copy of a Christensen plein study, so the design is essentially his though I failed to copy it even close to exact. I did learn a lot and it's on more step to help me learn how to handle brushes and acrylic paint. This is 6 3/4" X 12" on panel.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/201970-christensen001.jpg

David

Johannes Instructor
01-09-2011, 12:25 AM
Here is one of my paintings. This shows what I would consider melodic lines all over the place. mm the file upload is down again.

Johannes Instructor
01-09-2011, 12:30 AM
Just posting this so everybody knows I'm still here and trying to learn. C&C's are welcome but keep in mind this is an attempt at a copy of a Christensen plein study, so the design is essentially his though I failed to copy it even close to exact. I did learn a lot and it's on more step to help me learn how to handle brushes and acrylic paint. This is 6 3/4" X 12" on panel.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2011/201970-christensen001.jpg

David

Gosh a style is coming out. You have a talent for simplifying. There are some nice abtract shapes, but look also at your negative shapes. Do you see the two equal protrusions in the blue negative spaces in between two evergreens? Davkin you are better than what you think. I hope I can work with you. You will turn out even more beautiful work in a short time.

Davkin
01-09-2011, 02:10 AM
I think I see what you are talking about with the duplicate negative spaces. Not sure I can take much credit for the simplification on this one since it's a copy of a Christensen painting, though it's a bit simpler than the original, but that's partly just because it's smaller. I'm going to attempt another original of my own tomorrow, we'll see how that goes.

David

Ruthie57
01-09-2011, 07:34 AM
Thank you Johannes! I guess I subconsciously knew about making a platform to anchor the trees...it makes perfect sense. Thanks Colleen, you are right. My problem is still copying the effects and values in the photo. I'm starting to move away from it but it's a long haul! I haven't changed this one though as I'm so bad at straight horizontal lines!

I've worked on this some more and that's it for this one. But I'm going to do it again. Next time there will not be such an expanse of lake, there will be more interest (and lighter values maybe) in the foreground and it will be bigger.

It's been a great exercise. I've thought about melodic lines, no fly zones, negative spaces, distance from edges and fought to use lots of other colours apart from green.....I think I used too many colours.....:o

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/189061-amended.jpg

marionh
01-09-2011, 07:55 AM
Wow everyone has been busy. Too many for me to comment on but it is very interesting to see everyone's work and read the comments. It is invaluable. I'm feeling better and hope to be able to do something, if not today then tomorrow.

Charlie - what's wrong with icecrem LOL

A question for Charlie and Robert - would pan pastels be better for me seeing as I the dust form soft pastels seems to affect me?

Ruthie57
01-09-2011, 08:15 AM
The painting and reference look like Mount Redoubt (a volcano) and this is how it looks in real life, at least when I visited ("like a ghost", visible, but sometimes floating.

I like your painting Ruthie, makes me want to visit Alaska again.

Thanks PattiLou! It is Mt Redoubt. I liked the "floating" appearance.

Colorix
01-09-2011, 10:21 AM
Ruthie, beautiful! The 'platform' really made it!

Marion, definitely less dust with PanPastels, most of it end up in the sponges. Pans on Clairefontaine Pastelmat (French!) generates nearly no fall-off at all. (Use white or light paper, Pans are sheer, anything under them will show through.) Many of us use masks or air purifyers for indoor pastelling, too.

Johannes Instructor
01-09-2011, 10:22 AM
Thank you Johannes! I guess I subconsciously knew about making a platform to anchor the trees...it makes perfect sense. Thanks Colleen, you are right. My problem is still copying the effects and values in the photo. I'm starting to move away from it but it's a long haul! I haven't changed this one though as I'm so bad at straight horizontal lines!

I've worked on this some more and that's it for this one. But I'm going to do it again. Next time there will not be such an expanse of lake, there will be more interest (and lighter values maybe) in the foreground and it will be bigger.

It's been a great exercise. I've thought about melodic lines, no fly zones, negative spaces, distance from edges and fought to use lots of other colours apart from green.....I think I used too many colours.....:o

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/189061-amended.jpg

Now that is way better! The way to move away from photo dependancy is to apply these principles I have been telling you. Now you know, "Thou shalt not have tree growing from the bottom of the frame".

Johannes Instructor
01-09-2011, 10:25 AM
This painting I did has good examples of melodic lines

crazywoman53
01-09-2011, 11:25 AM
Thanks everyone for your comments. After sleeping and viewing my painting with fresh eyes I see Charlie that you are right about the foreground shadows. I used the same value for those as I did the background.. that's a no no... I also see that the one bush needs to be toned down some. ONe thing I wanted to clarify is that the foreground is snow over the dried yellow grass. In the original you can see more texture so it doesn't look as much like yellow snow or at least to me.. maybe because I know I wanted grass under the snow. Maybe it is still too yellow? hmmm. Johannes thanks for the comments and rework on my painting. I like the negative painting on the background trees. I was thinking about those last night when a light bulb went on about a "wall of trees" The trees in that area are all poplar and don't have any peaks to them but I guess I could still make more negative shapes than what I have. I drew the building four different times... smaller and larger. The larger size seemed to dimish the depth of the painting so I settled on the size it is now. Lastly the yellow in the photograph is not that strong in the real painting. I have never figured out the photographing to get accurate color reproductions. I am going to work on this some more today and will repost.

Ruthie your trees made a big improvement! The mountain is even more visible to me in this one so must have been your photograph on the first or perhaps the light in my room. It was awfully gloomy yesterday.

Robert I like your new painting. You are putting out a lot of work. I am dieing to see just a bit more detail in them though. I know they are just quick sketches but especially this last one I'd like to see you develope it a bit more.

See you all this afternoon for the demo!

oldradagast
01-09-2011, 11:25 AM
Wow - lots of good work here!

That canyon painting is not only a great example of melodic lines, but also of how to handle canyons themselves, which can turn into confused mud if one isn't careful.

oldradagast
01-09-2011, 11:31 AM
Here's my most recent painting... Mountains still scare me a bit, probably because I've never actually stood in the presence of a big "rocky" style mountain (though I've been to the Smoky Mountains, etc.)

I'm curious what my fellow students and our instructor think of this one - thanks for your comments and reviews!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/153201-towering_mountain_majesty1.jpg

robertsloan2
01-09-2011, 11:54 AM
Johannes, thank you for that example of melodic lines! I'm going to study that one before starting today's sketch.

Crazywoman, I might put more detail into some of them. It depends on the size and complexity of subject. One thing I might do is combine Pans with sticks in one this week - looking at doing many different styles. The Pans ones specifically are my working from a suggestion by Johannes to study Carol Marine's paintings.

http://carolmarine.blogspot.com/ - she often does 6" square Daily Paintings with a fairly big flat brush in oils. She got more detailed on today's with the guy walking away, but if you scroll down to Orange Extract that's very typical of her still lifes. That's what influenced my Pans style. I'm still working on it though.

I've got more detailed styles though and will definitely be doing some more that have a more detailed focal point.

rugman
01-09-2011, 12:51 PM
Wow, doesnt take long to get behind on this thread! :)

Great work Crazywoman, Robert, Charlie, David, Ruth, Matthew ( and anybody I forgot)

Ruth- Your changes are fabuous! What an eye opener to see the difference!

Matthew- your budgeting of masses is great. Perhaps some plane changes on the mountain. Some crevices, small cliffs etc to add variety on the mountainside. Think front to back. May have to just make it up. Less detail on evergreens, escpecially if mountian is what painting is about. Nice work!

crazywoman53
01-09-2011, 01:41 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/137465-Country-Winter.jpg

I worked on the tree/sky line line.. think it is better. Strengthened the mid tree line, strengthened the foreground shadows some. Got rid of some of the yellow on the left. The yellow in the grasses /bushes are still photographing too yellow. I think they all read ok now except that one middle bush. I toned it down but after looking at the photo and backing off the painting it still needs to come down some. Maybe God is talking to me and I should name this "The burning bush." lol Put in a few whiter highlights. Strenghtend the barn a little bit. Other than toning down the one bush I think I am going to stop here now as I feel like I am about to overwork this painting if I haven't already.

rugman
01-09-2011, 01:45 PM
This is what I've been working on this week during the evenings after work. 9 x 12 oil on Fredrix canvas pad. Just plugging away trying to learn and incorporate all Johannes info. Struggling with getting my colors mixed the way I want them to look... but getting better :) CC most welcome.

Things are a little washed out in this photo. There are some subtle violets and yellow in the background hills and sky that dont show up well, but I didnt want to spend all day tweeking it (if you know what I mean:D )

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/81164-creekAr.jpg

crazywoman53
01-09-2011, 01:57 PM
Matthew.. I have seen parts of moutains that have a definate directional line but I think if you changed the direction of the lines in the mountain so that there are different planes within the mountain itself it would be more interesting. Look at some photos of mountains to use for reference. I like the river.

Ron.. I see the violet peaking you are talking about. Getting a decent photo is harder than doing the painting I think. I get the feeling this pond is on the edge of a plateau which is not wrong just wondering if you intended it to be that way. If not there needs to be a transition between the foreground and the background a little more. It's a lovely scene!

marionh
01-09-2011, 02:08 PM
Matthew,
Very nice start. I agree that you need another plane between the mountains and trees. Otherwise, I like it - particularly your colours in that mountain. I shall leave it to more experienced to offer more insight :lol:

marionh
01-09-2011, 02:12 PM
Ron,
Very nice. My immediate observation is that the water, although well painted and nice colouring, it somehow does not read right. It needs to have more recession and I cannot make out if it is a river or lake as it seems equidistant side to side all the way. Does this make sense to you?

Colorix
01-09-2011, 06:20 PM
Ron, nice one. The mg trees are a tad 'clumpy', some hit-and-miss edges there would integrate them more. Oh, yes, there's a lot to keep track of, you're doing good!

Charlie

winecountry
01-09-2011, 06:22 PM
Seascape demo was really good today

Here is the final he finished in 3 hours...however before he would put this in a gallery or sell it he would do more finish work, on edges putting in the mist and other things so this is just the final of the demo.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_demo_wc.jpg

Biggest ah ha to me is pretty funny probably everyone but me does this, I kept seeing it in the pro vids and now it sunk in, you have to keep wiping your brush as you paint , 1 , 2, 3 strokes then wipe...no wonder I cant get the clean tones I want...( I've been oil painting 2 years and never heard this:o )

the other one was to put the palette vertical so the light was the same on the painting and the palette so your value is easier to get right...

Johannes Instructor
01-09-2011, 06:49 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/137465-Country-Winter.jpg

I worked on the tree/sky line line.. think it is better. Strengthened the mid tree line, strengthened the foreground shadows some. Got rid of some of the yellow on the left. The yellow in the grasses /bushes are still photographing too yellow. I think they all read ok now except that one middle bush. I toned it down but after looking at the photo and backing off the painting it still needs to come down some. Maybe God is talking to me and I should name this "The burning bush." lol Put in a few whiter highlights. Strenghtend the barn a little bit. Other than toning down the one bush I think I am going to stop here now as I feel like I am about to overwork this painting if I haven't already.

Lovely. You must be pleased with that!

robertsloan2
01-09-2011, 07:01 PM
Colleen, thank you for posting his finished painting! I've got eight pages of notes to post:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Notes-Jan-9-1.jpg

I loved the way he did the rain strokes. My approximation with pens doesn't do it justice but does show the direction of the strokes.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Notes-Jan-9-2.jpg

Another example of Melodic Line vs. wavy line for those just starting with JV.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Notes-Jan-9-3.jpg

Wave anatomy diagram. I love this.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Notes-Jan-9-4.jpg

robertsloan2
01-09-2011, 07:03 PM
Four more pages of them:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Notes-Jan-9-5.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Notes-Jan-9-6.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Notes-Jan-9-7.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Notes-Jan-9-8.jpg

Grainne
01-09-2011, 07:55 PM
Robert, I've said it before, but I have to say it again:

I don't know how you manage to take such terrific notes so quickly, but I sure am glad that you do! :clap:

And Johannes' demo this afternoon was outstanding as usual. I learned so much about how to think about and communicate the elements of a seascape. The resultant painting was beautiful. Thanks! :)


Grainne (aka Kaye)

Barbara01
01-09-2011, 08:21 PM
Johannes, thank you so much for the wonderful demo on painting seascapes, I’ve never tried one, or at least not one successfully, but my life has been entirely spent living inland in the Great Lakes area of Ontario.

I did have a question about the linen/birch panel support. I did get a roll of Belgium linen from Curry's with the intension of stretching it over a wood frame, but I have serious reservations about doing that after reading about all the problems people seem to have. So I'm curious about what you use to adhere the linen to the board. Would you mind elaborating on the topic?

It's good to hear that the Artists Magazine people are picking up with your webinars. Good luck with your project.

rugman
01-09-2011, 09:40 PM
Crazywoman- thanks for the feedback,... and yes, trying to get a decent photo of this was driving me insane!!!

Marion- good point about the recession of the water.. thanks!

Charlie- trees are giving me fits! :) but Im determined. This is probably around the 8th oil painting i've ever done, thanks for the encouragement!

Being a mainly a pastel person.... Has anyone else had trouble with oil colors looking fresh, and bright? Im I mixing wrong? Paint looks good under lights, been when out under normal room lighting, colors are really dull and drab. Maybe I have to many layers, or too thick of paint. I dont know. I use artist quality paints. Any pointers from anyone to help with this?

winecountry
01-09-2011, 11:08 PM
Being a mainly a pastel person.... Has anyone else had trouble with oil colors looking fresh, and bright? Im I mixing wrong? Paint looks good under lights, been when out under normal room lighting, colors are really dull and drab. Maybe I have to many layers, or too thick of paint. I dont know. I use artist quality paints. Any pointers from anyone to help with this?
I started making the switch 2 years ago, not you but the nature of the media...what pastel does for you in luminosity etc, you have to work like the dickens for in oil...your technique must be nearly flawless to work, but it can be done...

you will have to experiment with surfaces, mediums and final varnishes to suit you...there is a big learning curve, including the nature of each individual pigment. for instance if you are using bt umber and get it thick it will sink in and be dull...you have to find out how to use your paints...try the oil painting forum that's where I learned.

Johannes Instructor
01-09-2011, 11:24 PM
Johannes, thank you so much for the wonderful demo on painting seascapes, I’ve never tried one, or at least not one successfully, but my life has been entirely spent living inland in the Great Lakes area of Ontario.

I did have a question about the linen/birch panel support. I did get a roll of Belgium linen from Curry's with the intension of stretching it over a wood frame, but I have serious reservations about doing that after reading about all the problems people seem to have. So I'm curious about what you use to adhere the linen to the board. Would you mind elaborating on the topic?

It's good to hear that the Artists Magazine people are picking up with your webinars. Good luck with your project.

By the way since you mention "Currys" I live in Hamilton and also give personal classes. Most boards can be used as supports to which canvas, paper or other material can be glued. Use Liquitex® Matte Gel Medium (http://www.liquitex.com/products/gelmedmattegel.cfm) to adhere canvas to board. I use it all the time. No worrys! It really brings down the price compared to buying linen canvas. A few hours work and you will have tons of painting boards. Currys sells cheap panels too that don't warp.

chewie
01-09-2011, 11:43 PM
hello johannes. i am hoping for a crit on this piece. its plein air, pastel, 12x16.
638592

Johannes Instructor
01-10-2011, 12:44 AM
hello johannes. i am hoping for a crit on this piece. its plein air, pastel, 12x16.
638592

Referring to the painting above this box:

It is obvious that you are quite advanced. There is a nice visual path lead in placed in an "S" movement. This is the most preferred lead in. You handled atmospheric perspective nicely and you kept your painting simple. There is nothing that stands out that would need a correction however the painting does tell me one thing. Most artists have a tendency to depict a normal sunlit day but yet end up with an overall mid dark painting as if it is short of being night time. Because almost every pigment we use with the exception of yellow ochre, cadmium orange or cad yellow are all dark so when we mix these eventhough we want to create the feeling of light if we don't do it right we end up with a somber dark painting. What I tell myself is that if put my painting into a blender and make a smootie out of it, when I pour it out if it ends up as a mid dark value (aprox 7, 1 being white) I know I went too dartk unless I want to create a mood such as a sunset or twilight scene which I don't believe this is your case. If you push yourself to raise the value and work with an overall MID value and you mix the painting in a blender and pour it out, if it ends up into an mid value smoothie then you know you got light. Mixing greens is tricky. If we don't do it right we end up with too many dark areas.
Another concept I will be teaching is the usage of melodic lines. If you see your background rows of evergreens the lines are too straight.
I have a technique that will really bring the painting to a higehr level. I am referring to creating a more 3D effect. Your work eventhough it is good you want it to improve. I would need to teach you with several examples how to create depth in masses. Your tree masses look like walls, (again this is not wrong but it can be improved). The painting has depth because of logic and atmmosphere but there is an additional way to make it even enhance more the illusion of depth. It is too hard for me to explain this by typing. When we get the webinars going I will be able to illustrate this with examples.

winecountry
01-10-2011, 12:47 AM
OK this is pretty scary, here is the seascape demo that I did from Johannes's photo

When he put the photo up I decided to do it before he painted, I wanted to know what he would do different than me. I spent about 5 hours on mine to this point....the first photo ( blurry sorry) I took before the demo, then I took the piece and worked on it after the demo, trying to apply some of what I learned.

Right off you will notice that he simplified more than me...here is why I did not. I'm still doing studies, I've yet to paint a single seascape for a piece of art. This photo had so much going on that was interesting to me I wanted to see how I might paint each effect...I still tried to put it into order and I did simplify some, but I really wanted that wild splash and all its weirdness, tho I would not do that in a larger work maybe because it's too eye catching. In the rework I changed the sky...still like his better, and the front small wave, I simplified the rocks, that's about all. I will still work a bit more on it when it gets dry to tweak some edges and a few sticking out places, like a triangle in a prime place (see if you can find it)

Anyway, I do know that seascapes is what I want to do in landscape art. Don't have enough lifetime left to explore the whole field and this is what I have a passion for. I know he said they are easier, in a way yes, but since there are fewer things to work with, each one really has to be great, so in a way they are harder...mostly they will give me a chance to work with light as a main factor and that is probably why I'm drawn to them so.

Before
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_wip1_3687.jpg

after
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_demo_wip_2_3693.jpg

Johannes Instructor
01-10-2011, 01:08 AM
OK this is pretty scary, here is the seascape demo that I did from Johannes's photo

When he put the photo up I decided to do it before he painted, I wanted to know what he would do different than me. I spent about 5 hours on mine to this point....the first photo ( blurry sorry) I took before the demo, then I took the piece and worked on it after the demo, trying to apply some of what I learned.

Right off you will notice that he simplified more than me...here is why I did not. I'm still doing studies, I've yet to paint a single seascape for a piece of art. This photo had so much going on that was interesting to me I wanted to see how I might paint each effect...I still tried to put it into order and I did simplify some, but I really wanted that wild splash and all its weirdness, tho I would not do that in a larger work maybe because it's too eye catching. In the rework I changed the sky...still like his better, and the front small wave, I simplified the rocks, that's about all. I will still work a bit more on it when it gets dry to tweak some edges and a few sticking out places, like a triangle in a prime place (see if you can find it)

Anyway, I do know that seascapes is what I want to do in landscape art. Don't have enough lifetime left to explore the whole field and this is what I have a passion for. I know he said they are easier, in a way yes, but since there are fewer things to work with, each one really has to be great, so in a way they are harder...mostly they will give me a chance to work with light as a main factor and that is probably why I'm drawn to them so.

Before
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_wip1_3687.jpg

after
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_demo_wip_2_3693.jpg

I still need to do some tweeking on mine. I feel the yellow part of the sky is too strong, The rocks need more texture. I need to work some more on the foam in the foreground. I will take a picture in a few days and post it. Your rocks are more robust in the second version. What will really help is that I reflect the highlighted foam in the still water. The paint was too wet for me to do it.
I would define the wall of the wave more because it is a vertical format which means it picks up less light.

winecountry
01-10-2011, 01:23 AM
I think I need more "waterholes" in the foam Johannes what do you think? I did break the main wave the way it is in the photo so the eye can travel back past the wall of foam...what do you think about that? I know it's not the typical wave, but it does happen a lot that way in nature as one wave bounces back against another...if I follow the motion of the water I have a nice S that way... esp if I make that one finger of rock slight darker that comes to the surge going out.

All your hard work has made such a difference to me...thanks for downloading your brain into my work:lol: I'm going to a whole new level

BTW I told everyone you were not done with the demo when I posted it it today... so we're expecting and update:thumbsup:

marionh
01-10-2011, 03:03 AM
Colleen, I like your finished version. The sea really looks rough and I like the colours you have used. The difference between the first and second is amazing.
Looking forward to seeing the final version.

marionh
01-10-2011, 03:07 AM
Robert, wonderful notes again. They have helped me a lot.

Once again my sound was rubbish. Only had a period of about 15 minutes where the sound was clear. My connection told me it was at full strength so why this is suddenly so I've no idea.

Could someone please let me know what was said about the on-going demos and webinars/mentoring as I could not hear what Johannes was saying about this.

winecountry
01-10-2011, 03:27 AM
thanks Marion, I already see several places that need changing...and now that I've done my bit with each little thing and I know how I did it...time to take things out...and I think that burst will change too

wetbob
01-10-2011, 05:01 AM
Seascape demo was really good today

Here is the final he finished in 3 hours...however before he would put this in a gallery or sell it he would do more finish work, on edges putting in the mist and other things so this is just the final of the demo.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_demo_wc.jpg

Biggest ah ha to me is pretty funny probably everyone but me does this, I kept seeing it in the pro vids and now it sunk in, you have to keep wiping your brush as you paint , 1 , 2, 3 strokes then wipe...no wonder I cant get the clean tones I want...( I've been oil painting 2 years and never heard this:o

Thnx Johannes for your time! Hope i can see another for free! Had a lot of questions, like why didn t you add warm brown in the rocks, while winecountry did. Maybe strategy?
What i learned? I use the same method Johannes does. Maybe i solve problems if i use a larger canvas. I have to use more paint too and maybe another brand. I use often old holland. It was good to know using this technique it gives the the same problems for Johannes.

Thnx again,
WB

Ruthie57
01-10-2011, 06:28 AM
Just to say thank you to Johannes for another riveting demo! It was brilliant and I think I learnt a lot even though I rarely paint in oils.

I also want to thank you for your comments on my Mount Redoubt painting which is tons better now thanks to your advice.

Colleen, I love your re-worked version of the seascape. Looks like you learned a lot too...AND have been able to put it into practice.

Sorry no time to comment on other posts as this thread moves on so quick! Gotta get to the studio and paint landscape!

hewill4giveu
01-10-2011, 07:53 AM
I totally hear you about trees i have spent most of the night now and early morning listening to the tree videos Johannes did. I happened to miss that came in the second week. But wow its worth listening to. Im new to art totally so i am trying to just get the basics right. So today i will do just some trees. Then move on to other things. Trees are my issue too.








Crazywoman- thanks for the feedback,... and yes, trying to get a decent photo of this was driving me insane!!!

Marion- good point about the recession of the water.. thanks!

Charlie- trees are giving me fits! :) but Im determined. This is probably around the 8th oil painting i've ever done, thanks for the encouragement!

Being a mainly a pastel person.... Has anyone else had trouble with oil colors looking fresh, and bright? Im I mixing wrong? Paint looks good under lights, been when out under normal room lighting, colors are really dull and drab. Maybe I have to many layers, or too thick of paint. I dont know. I use artist quality paints. Any pointers from anyone to help with this?

Johannes Instructor
01-10-2011, 08:57 AM
I think I need more "waterholes" in the foam Johannes what do you think? I did break the main wave the way it is in the photo so the eye can travel back past the wall of foam...what do you think about that? I know it's not the typical wave, but it does happen a lot that way in nature as one wave bounces back against another...if I follow the motion of the water I have a nice S that way... esp if I make that one finger of rock slight darker that comes to the surge going out.

All your hard work has made such a difference to me...thanks for downloading your brain into my work:lol: I'm going to a whole new level

BTW I told everyone you were not done with the demo when I posted it it today... so we're expecting and update:thumbsup:

I think we need a more lazy "S" movement to the very front foam pattern. The line is running from side to side rather than leading us somewhere. You could add more "water plates" to the foamy area. Make sure you vary their sizes. Also don't forget to make the wave wall darker.

marionh
01-10-2011, 09:01 AM
Here is one that I am working on at the moment.
I have decided to try oils after someone asked me to join an art group painting in oils the week before Christmas. I only had 6 mini tubes of Winsor and Newton which I had given me years ago:lol: I tried to buy more locally but could not find much but managed to get an UB and Tit.white. After dabbling a bit this will be my first landscape in oil. At the moment, because I have so little paint, the paint has been applied quite thinly. I am waiting for an order from the UK.

This is painted from a reference of a watercolour landscape from a landscape book, but this has deviated somewhat from the ref, and is now mainly made up.

What I would like is for any ideas, comments on where to go from here - what's wrong compositionally e.g. should I get rid of that lhs water?. Is it worth persuing? It is on 30x30cm canvas. Tried to think of most of the nuggets. Not got a clue about oils of course but watching Johannes has helped.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/42113-Painting_crop_800x600.jpg

chewie
01-10-2011, 12:21 PM
Referring to the painting above this box:

It is obvious that you are quite advanced. There is a nice visual path lead in placed in an "S" movement. This is the most preferred lead in. You handled atmospheric perspective nicely and you kept your painting simple. There is nothing that stands out that would need a correction however the painting does tell me one thing. Most artists have a tendency to depict a normal sunlit day but yet end up with an overall mid dark painting as if it is short of being night time. Because almost every pigment we use with the exception of yellow ochre, cadmium orange or cad yellow are all dark so when we mix these eventhough we want to create the feeling of light if we don't do it right we end up with a somber dark painting. What I tell myself is that if put my painting into a blender and make a smootie out of it, when I pour it out if it ends up as a mid dark value (aprox 7, 1 being white) I know I went too dartk unless I want to create a mood such as a sunset or twilight scene which I don't believe this is your case. If you push yourself to raise the value and work with an overall MID value and you mix the painting in a blender and pour it out, if it ends up into an mid value smoothie then you know you got light. Mixing greens is tricky. If we don't do it right we end up with too many dark areas.
Another concept I will be teaching is the usage of melodic lines. If you see your background rows of evergreens the lines are too straight.
I have a technique that will really bring the painting to a higehr level. I am referring to creating a more 3D effect. Your work eventhough it is good you want it to improve. I would need to teach you with several examples how to create depth in masses. Your tree masses look like walls, (again this is not wrong but it can be improved). The painting has depth because of logic and atmmosphere but there is an additional way to make it even enhance more the illusion of depth. It is too hard for me to explain this by typing. When we get the webinars going I will be able to illustrate this with examples.

thank you johannes, i'll be waiting very anxiously for that lesson. and i fully get what you mean, and will take that into my next paintings. thank you very much!

robertsloan2
01-10-2011, 12:57 PM
Here is one that I am working on at the moment.
I have decided to try oils after someone asked me to join an art group painting in oils the week before Christmas. I only had 6 mini tubes of Winsor and Newton which I had given me years ago:lol: I tried to buy more locally but could not find much but managed to get an UB and Tit.white. After dabbling a bit this will be my first landscape in oil. At the moment, because I have so little paint, the paint has been applied quite thinly. I am waiting for an order from the UK.

This is painted from a reference of a watercolour landscape from a landscape book, but this has deviated somewhat from the ref, and is now mainly made up.

What I would like is for any ideas, comments on where to go from here - what's wrong compositionally e.g. should I get rid of that lhs water?. Is it worth persuing? It is on 30x30cm canvas. Tried to think of most of the nuggets. Not got a clue about oils of course but watching Johannes has helped.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/42113-Painting_crop_800x600.jpg

The first thing I can see is that it might help to start distinguishing some of the rocks with crevices that separate them - they flow together into quite large masses that look molded more than natural. It's something about how they're shadowed too, look close at Johannes's paintings of rocks to see how he handles the divide between one boulder and another. I'm not saying divide them into little bitty cobbles, more like two or three divisions in each of the rock masses so they look like a pile of boulders.

winecountry
01-10-2011, 01:42 PM
While there are things here to improve and take further along , I want to say this is one of the most amazing first landscapes in oil I've ever seen, you took on a very complex project, nothing is too dark, the whites have been reserved, ie you used colored whites, my eye can move through the composition there is a progression of planes wow, you really got a lot right!

susanc
01-10-2011, 02:02 PM
In my art classes long ago, this wouldn't have been a first landscape for anyone. We would have really struggled for a while to get to this point. I like the planes, too, like Colleen mentioned, and how you got a feeling of sunlight without resorting to the light/dark value contrast I used to think was so necessary. That's really nice. Maybe at the top of the falls, the 3 water divisions are a bit similar in width? However, I think you're definitely on the right track! Nicely done!

Johannes Instructor
01-10-2011, 02:25 PM
The first thing I can see is that it might help to start distinguishing some of the rocks with crevices that separate them - they flow together into quite large masses that look molded more than natural. It's something about how they're shadowed too, look close at Johannes's paintings of rocks to see how he handles the divide between one boulder and another. I'm not saying divide them into little bitty cobbles, more like two or three divisions in each of the rock masses so they look like a pile of boulders.
Robert I feel the rocks are too monochromatic and the one in the middle is too wormy. Create an abstract shape. Remember abstract shapes do not have equal sides on bith sides and much less parallel.

marionh
01-10-2011, 03:02 PM
Robert Thanks for your comments. I have just managed to get some more yellow ochre and al crimson so will try to continue tomorrow. The rocks are not really boulders i wanted to get the feel of some vertical jagged rocks. but at the moment they do look a bit 2D.

Susan and Colleen Thank you for your kind comments. You've given me the encouragement to continue.

Johannes Remembering all those nuggets is hard. I was trying so hard to keep the abstract shapes. Can you explain 'wormy'? I think I may make that mass larger and reduce the size of the left hand water.
Now I have a little more paint I will attack it with more gusto and maybe even get rid of the 'staircase' I can see now.

Johannes Instructor
01-10-2011, 04:47 PM
Robert Thanks for your comments. I have just managed to get some more yellow ochre and al crimson so will try to continue tomorrow. The rocks are not really boulders i wanted to get the feel of some vertical jagged rocks. but at the moment they do look a bit 2D.

Susan and Colleen Thank you for your kind comments. You've given me the encouragement to continue.

Johannes Remembering all those nuggets is hard. I was trying so hard to keep the abstract shapes. Can you explain 'wormy'? I think I may make that mass larger and reduce the size of the left hand water.
Now I have a little more paint I will attack it with more gusto and maybe even get rid of the 'staircase' I can see now.
"wormy" means a long shape with parallel sides. I would look a train or a snake something long and shapeless.

LynnM
01-10-2011, 06:49 PM
I have been so impressed with all the work shown here, people are working hard to advance and it is inspiring!

This is my second gouache landscape, painted in the last few days, I really struggled with the big rock and I know it has issues still, but I am hoping you can comment on the rest of the painting also.

Reference: my photograph

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/97813-Orchy-River-BW.jpg

6x9 gouache painted mainly impasto, Richeson and WN paint on black matt board.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/97813-Orchy-River-5.jpg

Johannes Instructor
01-10-2011, 06:53 PM
I have been so impressed with all the work shown here, people are working hard to advance and it is inspiring!

This is my second gouache landscape, painted in the last few days, I really struggled with the big rock and I know it has issues still, but I am hoping you can comment on the rest of the painting also.

Reference: my photograph

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/97813-Orchy-River-BW.jpg

6x9 gouache painted mainly impasto, Richeson and WN paint on black matt board.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/97813-Orchy-River-5.jpg

Have you looked at this in black and white? The overall value can use more light

winecountry
01-10-2011, 07:00 PM
good for you jumping right in...I notice the fore rock and it's trees are a bit cloned looking, and I think the background evergreens too bright and too big taking over visual space that they don't need as they are a minor element.

have never tried gouache; want to some day tho.

LynnM
01-10-2011, 07:08 PM
Thanks, Johannes, I'll look at that. I think it's partly the photo of the painting, but probably not enough variation.

Good points, Colleen. There some similarity to oils if you use it undiluted. I like that it dries pretty quickly, good for plein air.

winecountry
01-10-2011, 07:12 PM
this is the final...except for a few edges misted over when dry..there are weak spots but I'm ready to move on...making more paintings will help me understand what I didn't get here...over all it's not bad and I won't be burning it in the woodstove....:D ( yes I know about cads...)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_demo_finl.jpg

detail
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_demo_a_final_wc_crop_3697_.jpg

Grainne
01-10-2011, 07:16 PM
Colleen, I think it's beautiful and that it does your tutor proud! :)


Grainne

winecountry
01-10-2011, 07:18 PM
yes it wouldn't have happened without him:thumbsup:

LynnM
01-10-2011, 07:22 PM
It is beautiful, Colleen! I like your next wave that's coming in, too.

Barbara01
01-10-2011, 07:49 PM
By the way since you mention "Currys" I live in Hamilton and also give personal classes. Most boards can be used as supports to which canvas, paper or other material can be glued. Use Liquitex® Matte Gel Medium (http://www.liquitex.com/products/gelmedmattegel.cfm) to adhere canvas to board. I use it all the time. No worrys! It really brings down the price compared to buying linen canvas. A few hours work and you will have tons of painting boards. Currys sells cheap panels too that don't warp.

That's funny Johannes, I was looking at the Liquitex Gel Medium on their website the other day wondering how it might be useful. I'll get some of those panels and give it a try, I think they could be very useful for studies, which is something that I don't do enough of. I live about 45mins from Hamilton, and don't make it down that way too often, but a couple classes would be great. Did you go to school here in Ontario for art? Maybe you know some of my teachers..lol

Johannes Instructor
01-10-2011, 10:17 PM
That's funny Johannes, I was looking at the Liquitex Gel Medium on their website the other day wondering how it might be useful. I'll get some of those panels and give it a try, I think they could be very useful for studies, which is something that I don't do enough of. I live about 45mins from Hamilton, and don't make it down that way too often, but a couple classes would be great. Did you go to school here in Ontario for art? Maybe you know some of my teachers..lol

No, I went to school out in the field. lol Just kidding! I studied fine arts in Mexico City but the field was my best teacher.

Grainne
01-10-2011, 10:26 PM
Some of you wanted to see more watercolors. I did this painting in class today while my students followed along. You can see there are 5 planes in the background. This really gives depth.

1. Birch trees
2. Decidious trees
3. Evergreens
4. Leafless trees
4. Background mountain
Johannes

This is a wonderful watercolor . . . everything the medium is meant to be. When a watercolor is well done, nothing can touch it, in my humble opinion :) It sings its own kind of song!

I've been "chomping at the bit" to paint since the last couple of demos, but my family has been dealing with the sudden critical illness of one its members, who is taking a turn for the better in the last day or so. Perhaps it will be back to my brushes very soon. :crossfingers:


Grainne (aka Kaye)

rugman
01-11-2011, 12:39 AM
Nice job, Colleen!!!!
this is the final...except for a few edges misted over when dry..there are weak spots but I'm ready to move on...making more paintings will help me understand what I didn't get here...over all it's not bad and I won't be burning it in the woodstove....:D ( yes I know about cads...)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_demo_finl.jpg

detail
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2011/103030-seascape_demo_a_final_wc_crop_3697_.jpg

rugman
01-11-2011, 12:46 AM
Good to see so many starting to implement what we learned in the webinars.

Colleen- I was hoping for an easier answer to my question regarding oil colors. LOL. Thanks

Hewill4giveu- practice makes perfect? :)

Marion- nice start to your waterfall, Im a little behind on conversation, I think you already got some good suggestions.

Lynn- tough subject, but looking good!

Johannes- wow, what a great watercolor!!! Great webcam last Sunday as well. Thanks again!

winecountry
01-11-2011, 01:13 AM
thanks Ron, what question about color was that?

winecountry
01-11-2011, 01:37 AM
one of the gems for me yesterday was to put the palette the same angle and light at the painting...I didn't think I could do that, don't have enough room but then I figured this out...works great and like he says easier to get the values right....If you use a table like I do and put your easel on it and raise the bottom it might work for you too...

I use a homemade palette that folds closed, and stores on my bookcase. I made two and have one going for each painting or use it plein air. see this thread for what and how I made it.
(http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=701251)
next time I'll put the paints out a little further apart. but really happy with this set up and it is faster too, as he mentioned. So nice to have the light on the painting and on the palette the same and no glare off the paints from overhead light.

.My current rock struggle is on the easel.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2011/103030-palette_painting.jpg

marionh
01-11-2011, 02:25 AM
Colleen - Nicely finished (please post again when you have softened the edges). I like the sea colour and its reflections in the rocks. What colours did you use for the sea?

I look forward to seeing your new one develop. Interesting that you don't use a white palette, doesn't this make is difficult to see the exact shade of paint mix?

Ron - thanks

Lynn - Nice work so far I like that rock coloour against the trees. I would like to see more distinction in the planes e.g. the small bushes along the back bank seem to be the same colour and value as the rh trees. I suggest also raising the height of the right hand rocks a little to make them come forward a bit more. One other observation - the top of the that clump of evergreens hits the V in the mountains, maybe that tip should be moved a little? Never tried gouache it looks like an interesting mediium.

winecountry
01-11-2011, 02:35 AM
viridian, colbalt mostly and thalo blue in a couple of places.

well wood palettes were around long before white paper:) it' s a warm mid tone I like it, doesn't seem to be a problem so far.

marionh
01-11-2011, 02:38 AM
Thanks Colleen. The sea here is very blue/green (hence the name cote d'azur) and I think these colours would be great when I take the plunge into seascapes LOL You must be a night owl as it is my morning now.

winecountry
01-11-2011, 02:47 AM
I usually paint til midnight then go to bed, getting close night night:thumbsup:

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 08:08 AM
Your seascape is workling now Collen. This is the best painting I have seen from you.

rugman
01-11-2011, 09:13 AM
Colleen- This was your answer, I should have quoted it for you. The painting I've been working on, I coated the preprimed canvas with clear Colorfix pastel primer and then tried my hardest to keep paint thin or in thin layers. Much happier with colors and "glow"

I started making the switch 2 years ago, not you but the nature of the media...what pastel does for you in luminosity etc, you have to work like the dickens for in oil...your technique must be nearly flawless to work, but it can be done...

you will have to experiment with surfaces, mediums and final varnishes to suit you...there is a big learning curve, including the nature of each individual pigment. for instance if you are using bt umber and get it thick it will sink in and be dull...you have to find out how to use your paints...try the oil painting forum that's where I learned.

robertsloan2
01-11-2011, 10:11 AM
Johannes, that watercolor is breathtaking. I love the way you control the soft-edged wet in wet applications. That can only come with practice, getting so used to how it behaves at every stage of drying that you know how much to put on and which strokes to use. That rock in front of the house is gorgeous. Rock shapes always intrigue me and seeing something so simple come out that rugged and perfect is a delight.

Colleen, your oil painting of the seascape is beautiful.

marionh
01-11-2011, 10:22 AM
Here is another study of some rocks and a river. This is a river near where I live and normally it is quiet and a great place for kids to go paddling. However, we had some huge storms last year and it turned into a torrent.

The rocks here are all limestone so quite grey and white looking - quite hard to breathe life into them. I initially used a lot of cereleum but every thing was a monotonous bluey grey and it was difficult to tell the difference between rocks and water. After seeing Johannes's video of the rocks I though adding pinks and violets to the rocks might solve it. I would really like to paint these limestone rocks as most of the scenery here is limestone and there is no ochre in them.

I would like to turn this into a larger painting but would like some pointers, please don't hold back. In the painting the left hand side rocks and mini cascade would be more into the picture plane. I have not bothered much with the background foliage overhanging the bank.

It is 20x30cm (8x12") oil on gessoed mountboard

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2011/42113-016_800x600.JPG

purpleheather
01-11-2011, 10:50 AM
Robert, thanks so much for taking such detailed notes. I have trouble remembering the process and without your incredible notes much of what I watched was flushed down the drain.

Anne

LynnM
01-11-2011, 11:55 AM
Yes, Robert, I have all your notes saved and I know I will be looking back over them in the next few months....many thanks!

Thanks for your comments, Ron and Marion. I thought I had caught all the tangents, Marion :) I agree about the planes, I was trying to get more light into the distant shrubbery, and the evergreens that Colleen mentioned were already toned down, but what I did was not enough. I think I'll start again.

Your new painting looks promising, I like the concept, I'll be very interested as you work it out, as my favourite place to paint has a lot of white granite, and pink. One thing I notice is some cloning of your brush strokes on the rock, but I'm too new to go further!

Johannes, that's a super watercolour, your handling of the rocks in front is a good lesson for smooth rock....still has a few edges. You say 'your class', are you teaching in person in the Hamilton area?

marionh
01-11-2011, 12:11 PM
Thanks Lynn. Yes I see that cloning. Some of the brushstrokes are getting a bit heavy now as I went over the original which I had done impasto - that's my excuse anyway!

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Yes, Robert, I have all your notes saved and I know I will be looking back over them in the next few months....many thanks!

Thanks for your comments, Ron and Marion. I thought I had caught all the tangents, Marion :) I agree about the planes, I was trying to get more light into the distant shrubbery, and the evergreens that Colleen mentioned were already toned down, but what I did was not enough. I think I'll start again.

Your new painting looks promising, I like the concept, I'll be very interested as you work it out, as my favourite place to paint has a lot of white granite, and pink. One thing I notice is some cloning of your brush strokes on the rock, but I'm too new to go further!

Johannes, that's a super watercolour, your handling of the rocks in front is a good lesson for smooth rock....still has a few edges. You say 'your class', are you teaching in person in the Hamilton area?
Yes I have personal classes as well. I love teaching and see my students grow.

Colorix
01-11-2011, 01:02 PM
Marion, looking good! Before reading what you wrote, I thought "needs green and ochre reflected light in the stones". Operative word is *reflected*, those colours would bounce off from the foliage, so they would not be *in* the rocks but *on* them. For a bigger painting, a clear area of interest would really make it zing. Then there is a lot happening in the upper right corner: The topmost rock points right out of the painting, and is prominent, as it also continues the vector of the two rather parallel falls, and you also have the same angle in the mid left rocks (left outline of). This area, upper right, would make a good center of interest if it gets away from the edges and corner a bit more.

You clumped the rocks beautifully into shapes, clearly you massed in them and then added details :thumbsup:. It is a great second (or did I miss one?) oil. Looks like you and oils really work well together.

Charlie



... I though adding pinks and violets to the rocks might solve it. I would really like to paint these limestone rocks as most of the scenery here is limestone and there is no ochre in them.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2011/42113-016_800x600.JPG

winecountry
01-11-2011, 01:05 PM
I too thank you Robert, you created a gem and were so generous to share it all.

Johannes thank you, with your help I hope I improve lots more,
I have a question. Here is yours and mine in grey scale....all my paintings seem on the light side and lack some punch of darker values....It seems when painting I use the darks, but at the end they don't sing like yours...I've checked with my value scale and I have #7 and even 8 in them but still they all seem a bit grey and light...I know I want fog an soft light, but I want darks too, what am I missing here?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2011/103030-johannes_copy_grey.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2011/103030-Johannes_grey.jpg

winecountry
01-11-2011, 01:11 PM
Colleen- This was your answer, I should have quoted it for you. The painting I've been working on, I coated the preprimed canvas with clear Colorfix pastel primer and then tried my hardest to keep paint thin or in thin layers. Much happier with colors and "glow"

I started this way too, and even went further after I talked to Robert Doak one of the world's most revered color makers. Since he had the same idea 50 years ago, ie making the oils more like pastel, he gave me lots of help, one thing you can do is add ground leaded glass to the paint, it will act more like pastel that way...( the old Venetian painters did this) I had some people think my oils were pastel in my wildlife work...I now use just straight paint and a bit of his media, which is Spike of lavender, sun oil, and Canada Balasm, and using less of that now too...but it was a good way to transition...I painted on a sanded surface too as you are and now use mostly linen

marionh
01-11-2011, 01:59 PM
Marion, looking good! Before reading what you wrote, I thought "needs green and ochre reflected light in the stones". Operative word is *reflected*, those colours would bounce off from the foliage, so they would not be *in* the rocks but *on* them. For a bigger painting, a clear area of interest would really make it zing. Then there is a lot happening in the upper right corner: The topmost rock points right out of the painting, and is prominent, as it also continues the vector of the two rather parallel falls, and you also have the same angle in the mid left rocks (left outline of). This area, upper right, would make a good center of interest if it gets away from the edges and corner a bit more.

You clumped the rocks beautifully into shapes, clearly you massed in them and then added details :thumbsup:. It is a great second (or did I miss one?) oil. Looks like you and oils really work well together.

Charlie
Thanks Charlie, yes I forgot that reflected light from the trees. Good catch as some of that area is darker under the trees and so would have some good reflected light.

My area of interest was that rh back cascade so at least that worked. I was aware it was too close to the edge at the time and you have reinforced that - I suppose I was trying to squeeze everything into that size. But I am please that was noticable - that second waterfall was my brush taking over my brain, it was supposed to be a trickleover the rocks:lol:

Appreciate your critique as always, you have a good eye a nice succint way of explaining.

Yes, my second oil landscape plus 1 floral (of course). I am enjoying the oils and I am sure even more so when I get some decent supplies.

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 02:41 PM
I too thank you Robert, you created a gem and were so generous to share it all.

Johannes thank you, with your help I hope I improve lots more,
I have a question. Here is yours and mine in grey scale....all my paintings seem on the light side and lack some punch of darker values....It seems when painting I use the darks, but at the end they don't sing like yours...I've checked with my value scale and I have #7 and even 8 in them but still they all seem a bit grey and light...I know I want fog an soft light, but I want darks too, what am I missing here?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2011/103030-johannes_copy_grey.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2011/103030-Johannes_grey.jpg

First I want to congratulate you for looking at this in a gray scaloe to see how the values work. You can see that my wave part is in the light mid value and yours is still in the mid gray arounf value 4. Your rocks are the correct value. Remember you are able to use vaue 8 for accents to bring out the 3D look and define planes. I think that is what you are saying.

smad3
01-11-2011, 03:45 PM
Greetings to all:
Unfortunately, I have been away from my computer for a few weeks, but when I got back on Monday, I saw this really good reference photo which I understand was used for a Johannes demo the day before. Even though I missed the on line demo, I did do my own interpretation of the photo and have posted for any comments and critiques. Hopefully some of you (including Johannes) will now have some inside knowledge of what may help to improve this piece. Keep in mind I did not see the demo and this version is not cropped quite the same.
After finishing I now ask myself, is this about the water, the land or the sky?
My first impression on seeing the reference photo was the power of the ocean crashing into the shore but while painting this I forgot about why it was being painted and went for the whole view including most of the sky mass.
Also I am not sure I achieved as much distance as I wanted in sky either (i.e. cooler to warmer in the cloud shadows and warmer to cooler in the cloud highlights, front to back (that is if I have interpreted the info Johannes provided about sky structure correctly).
Thanks for looking.
Stephen

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2011/89075-Next_one_up.jpg

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 05:06 PM
First I want to congratulate you for looking at this in a gray scaloe to see how the values work. You can see that my wave part is in the light mid value and yours is still in the mid gray around value 4. Your rocks are the correct value. Remember you are able to use vaue 8 for accents to bring out the 3D look and define planes. I think that is what you are saying. If you want fog then you can scumble over the rocks behind the wave to show distance. I played with my unfinished painting in photoshop to give it a more foggy look.

winecountry
01-11-2011, 05:41 PM
First I want to congratulate you for looking at this in a gray scaloe to see how the values work. You can see that my wave part is in the light mid value and yours is still in the mid gray around value 4. Your rocks are the correct value. Remember you are able to use vaue 8 for accents to bring out the 3D look and define planes. I think that is what you are saying. If you want fog then you can scumble over the rocks behind the wave to show distance. I played with my unfinished painting in photoshop to give it a more foggy look.


Yes I see the light, and I used pure white on mine to try and get it but to no avail, it still did not get light...I will have to learn how to leave the white canvas there at the highest part of the light, even with impasto, it isn't bright.

are you maybe going to post your PS version?

LynnM
01-11-2011, 06:04 PM
Colleen, are you photographing your work, how big is it? I am having trouble getting mine to look as light as it is, on the computer....when you look at your picture is it still not white, or is it white but it is not showing up on the computer?

Colorix
01-11-2011, 06:31 PM
Colleen, trust your eyes more than the photo. Put something really black and really white next to the painting when taking a photo, and include in the shot, then you can use those two 'bookends' to adjust levels on your computer so it looks more right.

Also, uploading to WC tends to darken the lights, and tone down the brigts.

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 06:36 PM
Collen,

First I want to congratulate you for looking at this in a gray scaloe to see how the values work. You can see that my wave part is in the light mid value and yours is still in the mid gray around value 4. Your rocks are the correct value. Remember you are able to use vaue 8 for accents to bring out the 3D look and define planes. I think that is what you are saying. If you want fog then you can scumble over the rocks behind the wave to show distance. I played with my unfinished painting in photoshop to give it a more foggy look. This is not my final painted version.

crazywoman53
01-11-2011, 07:22 PM
Colleen...It seems to me that it is not the lights but the darker values/shadows under the wave that is missing. There is not enough contrast there between the highlight of the wave and the shadow. Johannes has a higher contrast which make it stand out/sing more.

Everyone is posting such nice work. Loved the watercolor Johanne.. makes me want to go dig out my brushes again. I wanted to thank you for your comments on my last painting. I did go back and add some more darker shadows under the foreground clump of grass after looking at it the next day it said hey to me. I've started a new painting but will see where I end up with it before I post.

Robert.. thanks for the notes. I had a headache last sunday and didn't take any notes.

winecountry
01-11-2011, 07:40 PM
thanks Charlie I'll try that..

Lynn and CW...I tweak it in PS to get close, but then uploading changes it and so do monitors. still every painting has the same problem so think I still have another step to go in getting the balance...for one thing my darks are going on too thick, then I go over and it mixes too much...another is getting bolder with the accents.

Scott Christensen puts all his darks in right away, he says he loses them otherwise so I may try that too.

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 07:45 PM
oops the other one is the wrong one. This one is better.

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 08:02 PM
Collen let me help you with the fog issue. The best way is to scumble or glaze starting from the back using a gray violet color. Below are 4 different variations of fog. The pictures start from less foggy until real foggy. I hope this helps you. When it is foggy whatever is close to you will still be seen quite clearly.
The third picture appears it is raining.

winecountry
01-11-2011, 08:11 PM
those are great Johannes...of course in mixing colors for fog, or I should say values maybe, it's a great lesson to get them just so...

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 08:14 PM
Still raining or foggy, starting to clear up in the back.

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 08:20 PM
Fog clearing and now sunlight peels thru the clouds hitting wave like a spotlight. It is never ending the effects you can create. Colleen honestly the whole idea of using fog in paintings as been undermined and not used enough. One thing it will always do is simplify a painting and set things into the distance as well as separate planes.

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 08:21 PM
I told you i would give support to all of you. Colleen is doing the seeking so she gets it.

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 08:34 PM
Here is another version with two focal point. It is starting to clear up now.

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 08:45 PM
Now the sun broke thru in another area and a clouds cast a shadow in the foreground. I hope this gives you ideas.

winecountry
01-11-2011, 08:51 PM
it sure does, I'm printing it out and saving it in my book, a whole lot to explore ahead, who needs clear days!:thumbsup:

Johannes Instructor
01-11-2011, 08:53 PM
Ok I am finished playing God. LOL!

winecountry
01-11-2011, 10:18 PM
I bow before the Master:lol:

seriously thank you, this bound to keep me busy for a while:thumbsup:

marionh
01-12-2011, 03:41 AM
It's amazing what subtle changes can do. That last one with the sun shining through really grabs me.

I have done some more to my first painting and will post later. In trying to put the cracks in I felt they looked very pasted on top. So I ended up blending them in again. Any tricks for this? Should I dilute the paint so that the cracks sink in more?

Ruthie57
01-12-2011, 03:52 AM
Great stuff Johannes...seeing all the different moods and effects which can be created!

winecountry
01-12-2011, 03:53 AM
lost and found edges help in cracks marion

I admit that I bit off way more than I could chew here...the goal was to do a lot of rocks together and get the planes separated and fogged over. But frankly I just don't have the chops for this complicated a painting ...I was also looking for the warm pinkish sunset lit fog, against a green water that almost glowed...that is not here either and you can see my idea that the reds in the rocks might tie them together :lol: ...But I did get a few ideas of what happens when one rock is behind another and how to do that...I'll be scraping this one off tho.... It was a gallant fight and I tried many times, but this one is over so I can live to fight another day:evil:

This is so bad I don't think even Johannes could rescue it... to start with the composition is not workable, so no matter what I did to the rest it wouldn't matter...well live and learn;)

8x10 coast rocks Salmon Creek beach
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Jan-2011/103030-failed_rocks_3698.jpg


ref and I had a plein air I used
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Jan-2011/103030-rocky_ref_late_4370.jpg

marionh
01-12-2011, 04:20 AM
Thanks Colleen - I think I have to practice practice and more practice. I think I might do several rock studies (I always thought that I could do rocks LOL)
It's a good job this isn't my masterpiece.

Colleen, if you've tried that is half way there and good basis for the next. I like the comp but I think you could loose those three foreground rocks, or group them and add more sand maybe to lead in. Your big foreground rock is blocking the entry into the painting. Perhaps move the large rock to the left so that the set of rocks are apart a little and create an S shape of water into the painting.

Colorix
01-12-2011, 06:25 AM
We're dealing with ilnesses in our family, so not much else getting done by me right now, but I thought I'd share a funny (peculiar) effect these classes have had. I googled (images) a landscape subject, and found that there is a clear visual difference between a photo and a painting, even in thumbnail size. (I'm talking high quality realistic paintings which look like photos in that small size.) "Oooo, that is a nice ref, I'll look closer at it. Oh... a painting." Finally figured out that it was the arrangement, the composition, that did the difference -- these paintings were complete, in a manner, while a photo is just as is, everything just 'tossed out' in nature.

It seems it might be that this sort of experience of 'satisfying completeness' (for lack of better words) is where the Lofty Art resides. The mark of the artist.

robertsloan2
01-12-2011, 07:30 AM
Charlie, you're right! I'm starting to get annoyed at references that back in October, I would've loved. I think that difference of completion is a bit like the difference between a story and a random selection of events. The structure of a good painting is clearer every time I see one of Johannes's or another good one, or when I try to paint - not always a success but I'm always trying.

Johannes, thank you for that lesson on using fog! That's fascinating and I love seeing mist and fog in paintings. I'm going to have to try that.

Johannes Instructor
01-12-2011, 09:33 AM
lost and found edges help in cracks marion

I admit that I bit off way more than I could chew here...the goal was to do a lot of rocks together and get the planes separated and fogged over. But frankly I just don't have the chops for this complicated a painting ...I was also looking for the warm pinkish sunset lit fog, against a green water that almost glowed...that is not here either and you can see my idea that the reds in the rocks might tie them together :lol: ...But I did get a few ideas of what happens when one rock is behind another and how to do that...I'll be scraping this one off tho.... It was a gallant fight and I tried many times, but this one is over so I can live to fight another day:evil:

This is so bad I don't think even Johannes could rescue it... to start with the composition is not workable, so no matter what I did to the rest it wouldn't matter...well live and learn;)

8x10 coast rocks Salmon Creek beach ref and I had a plein air I used

This is the same problem we would have in a field with sage brushes. Nature will scatter them randomly with no order. What we need to do is provide a visual path around the rocks. Much like how they make highways that search for areas around the mountains.

crazywoman53
01-12-2011, 10:47 AM
To me learning the compositional guidelines will be the biggest help. I nearly always start with a photo and before it is done it looks nothing like the photo. I keep fighting with it till I figure it out which teaches me a lot but is also very frustrating. I keep promising myself I will do more thumbnail sketches but even then when I transfer them to the larger piece of paper they still need adjusting. Can we post WIP here Johannes for your comment?

Johannes Instructor
01-12-2011, 10:50 AM
To me learning the compositional guidelines will be the biggest help. I nearly always start with a photo and before it is done it looks nothing like the photo. I keep fighting with it till I figure it out which teaches me a lot but is also very frustrating. I keep promising myself I will do more thumbnail sketches but even then when I transfer them to the larger piece of paper they still need adjusting. Can we post WIP here Johannes for your comment?

Yes of course

winecountry
01-12-2011, 11:28 AM
thanks for comments all...and Charlie for that insight, it all points to why I scraped it down, funny thing is I did sketches first, and wen starting had way fewer rocks a path in etc.. and as I went kept putting in more trying to balance it.... and unlike the sagebrush, these rocks are dark against the light water adding to the challenge.....I believe the biggest problem was choosing to focus on the large bg rock...I should have pushed it back into that foggy plane and left it simple then moved the foreground rock over and left a path of water in....maybe I'll try that in a quickie and see if that fixes the composition...I did get lots of practice painting rocks:lol:

I've been going through my photos to find one to do a series of 7 paintings of one comp based on what Johannes did with his demo piece, only using my own comp....and looking hard at the comps of the best seascape artists, I'm going to be careful this time to get the comp started right.

hewill4giveu
01-12-2011, 12:15 PM
I was going over the probably 500 pictures i have taken since being here in Wy. Some in yellowstone, tetons and rockys and im realizing now with Johnannes teachings they are vertually worthless to me now LOL. So i will be busy this summer along with taking pics i will be plein air painting something i have never done. Am i the only one who sees everything so different. Its just amazing to me how i see trees, land mass, snow, rocks as i ride down the road. I see the colors Johannes said you would see. Interesting i never noticed stuff like that before. Everything was a whole just amazing to me.Its like a whole new world to me. I just can't seem to get enough.

JTMB
01-12-2011, 12:25 PM
Oh believe me, you are not alone in that...! :)

The only problem this creates is that none of the landscapes I've done in the past look very good anymore either. :lol: I am kidding because that's a good thing.

My wife and I had an interesting experience last weekend. (She's been watching most of the demos with me, although she's not as obsessive about painting as I am right now.) Daniel Smith is headquartered in Seattle, and they have free demos by local artists at each of their stores pretty much every weekend - and some of them are good (plus my attitude is that you can always learn something by watching and studying) and so we go to them. I've been to several of them now, and the one this weekend was a landscape pastel. I wanted to stand up and yell - 'No, that's not a melodic line! or...'Stay away from the no fly zone there.' Fortunately I restrained myself. :) :o

I'm working on an oil landscape now for an oil painting project class, and the demos and lectures have really helped modify the reference to get a much better composition than I would have had using my past approach.

Johannes Instructor
01-12-2011, 12:44 PM
Oh believe me, you are not alone in that...! :)

The only problem this creates is that none of the landscapes I've done in the past look very good anymore either. :lol: I am kidding because that's a good thing.

My wife and I had an interesting experience last weekend. (She's been watching most of the demos with me, although she's not as obsessive about painting as I am right now.) Daniel Smith is headquartered in Seattle, and they have free demos by local artists at each of their stores pretty much every weekend - and some of them are good (plus my attitude is that you can always learn something by watching and studying) and so we go to them. I've been to several of them now, and the one this weekend was a landscape pastel. I wanted to stand up and yell - 'No, that's not a melodic line! or...'Stay away from the no fly zone there.' Fortunately I restrained myself. :) :o

I'm working on an oil landscape now for an oil painting project class, and the demos and lectures have really helped modify the reference to get a much better composition than I would have had using my past approach.

Again I feel in general we tend to rely too heavily on photos. I will be giving a course any weekend now to help overcome this dependancy. I am still waiting for F&W publications to send me the agreement for me to be sponsored to get started. The ball is in their court and I am waiting for them to make the next move. I've got my lessons already written and the material ready to go.

winecountry
01-12-2011, 01:17 PM
Just for learning this am I completely simplifying it. I'll work out the the comp at least before leave it.

I just listened to a dvd of Scott Christensen...only 1 of 30 of his paintings make it to the gallery, I watched another dvd of one of the top landscape artists in the country and he said painting A had real problems and he was going to rework it...Painting A to me looked perfect I would have been so happy to do it that well. The more you learn about your work, and advance as a painter, the more discerning your eye become and your standards rise....a way to check that out is go back 2 years and look at your work...are you happy with it, or do you see some weak areas you didn't notice when you did it.

In the interests of getting back on the horse after you fall off I did a quick recompose this morning, not going on but good to see I learned from the flop and this would def work better. and still conveys the rocky coast
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Jan-2011/103030-rework_rocks.jpg

granddad
01-12-2011, 01:45 PM
Yea, I am waiting on the lessons, can't wait for the lessons. I wish F&W publications would hurry up. I have been struggling with a landscape but will post it when done for C and C, but I know there is a lot wrong with it, just by knowing what Johannes has already discussed with us though Webinar. I just not to sure how to fix the problems, hince I struggling with it. Maybe one thing is its to big, its a 20 x 24. Next one I wil do smaller for sure. james

flowergram
01-12-2011, 02:05 PM
That's exciting news, I am anxious as well, am unable to watch the demos on justintv. Does anyone know if the watercolor demo and the critiques given in December are available as yet? Will these weekend demos be available?
Georgi

rugman
01-12-2011, 02:06 PM
I enjoy this thread, everyone learning together.

Colleen- kudos to you for sharing your "stinker" paintings.

Well, I reworked this painting. The paint was tacky enough to slop some more paint on it:). I spent an hour or so reworking, .... no more work on this, but CC definetly still welcome

Will post another tonight, got to get back to work... darn it...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Jan-2011/81164-BattlecreekR.jpg

winecountry
01-12-2011, 02:21 PM
Ron... what is the focal point here you know the place you want to keep visiting, what is most important for us to experience, ie the why of the work?

oldradagast
01-12-2011, 02:28 PM
Ron: Interesting work - nice underwater rocks by the way!

I agree with Colleen - the focus in this painting is hard to determine. It seems almost like 2 paintings. You could have 1 of the distance mountains and trees with some of the water in the foreground, or a 2nd composed of the foreground water itself with a nice look at those underwater rocks. As depicted, there seems to be a lot there overall, IMHO.

wetbob
01-12-2011, 02:39 PM
I like to follow the lessons! What s required?

Thnx again for your demo:thumbsup:

robertsloan2
01-12-2011, 04:45 PM
Ron, this is lovely. I like your underwater rocks. My eye follows that tree across the stream.

I can see an error in the reflections though, the two golden clumps of foliage should be reflected down in the same plane of the painting. You have them reflecting right under them but that patch of water is in the middle distance right before the cree bends. That problem is the only thing that breaks the illusion of depth in the painting. If they fell on and just in front of that clump of rocks breaking the surface it'd read true for reflecting that tree. Hope this helps.

Great treatment of the no-fly zone. I like the tree slanting across the creek on the sand. Everything else in this painting looks good - I'm seeing a center of interest at the end of the tree, that could be intensified to make it easier to see the focal area by adding a strong cast shadow. I see a secondary focal area at the start of the tree and then an easy path into the painting. Up to you how you want to handle that in the next one, but I do see this as having the tricky bit of multiple center of interest. The stones are good but not as grabby as the tree, my eyes followed the tree base to tip much more than that.

Hope that helps!

rugman
01-12-2011, 06:43 PM
Thanks guys for your thoughts.

Colleen- the original focal point was the trees in the upper right corner. But as the painting began failing, this basically turned into a practice exercise LOL (such as underwater rocks, pushing color, etc)

Matthew- thanks, very glad to hear my first attempt at underwater rocks was recognizable as such!

Robert- I always appreciate your time and comments! Good suggestions to think about. I havent commented much on your recent work (ie in pastel forum) but I have looked, and your getting better all the time. Such as color varigation, design, melodic lines and so on!

Johannes Instructor
01-12-2011, 07:03 PM
How to Paint Seascapes
Join us for a free live art class on January 16
Space is limited.
Reserve your Webinar seat now at:
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/988225350


Due to the success of the seascape painting live demo last Sunday, many of you are requesting to learn more about painting seascapes. Johannes is inviting you to take a FREE live and interactive online art class. Learn everything you need to know about painting seascapes. This class will reveal the anatomy of waves, how to do foam, placing rocks in seascapes, etc. Even if you do not paint seascapes several tips will be shared that will help you with your landscape paintings as well. Questions are encouraged not only pertinent to seascapes. There is no complicated software to install. All you need to do is register yourself with your name and correct email address. No financial information will be requested.

1:00 PM MST
3:00 PM EST
8:00 PM England
9:00 PM Switzerland

Title: How to Paint Seascapes

Date: Sunday, January 16, 2011

Time: 3:00 PM - 5:00 PM EST (Eastern Standard Time)


After registering you will receive a confirmation email containing information about joining the Webinar.

System Requirements
PC-based attendees
Required: Windows® 7, Vista, XP or 2003 Server

Macintosh®-based attendees
Required: Mac OS® X 10.4.11 (Tiger®) or newer

sherrysherman
01-12-2011, 07:37 PM
Ron (and Robert)--

I think Robert's comments just point to an issue I had with the painting - I think (emphasis on "think") that what you took to be a tree branch, Robert, is actually supposed to be the far shore of the stream. In that case, the reflections are in the right place. BUT the confusion caused by the tangent or kissing or the branch (or where a branch might be) and the far shore is an issue.

IF that is the far shore, there needs to be some gradation in the color, intensity, and/or value of the bushes (duller, cooler). Also, I would differentiate the bushes' color from the tree, and move or modify color/value of the shore beginning (just to the right of the tree) where it looks like a tree branch. Then, I also see some cloning in those bushes in the far shore.

Hope that was useful. I'd love to see it with that back shore modified.

Sherry

sherrysherman
01-12-2011, 07:39 PM
By the way, I tried to repost Ron's painting too, so you could see what I mean, but I'm not allowed to do that until I've posted twice on WC. So this is my second post and now I can post images too. :)

Sherry

winecountry
01-12-2011, 09:01 PM
Ron, working with the principals we are using, what the painting is about should have the most real estate, so your painting is about the water...if you wanted it to be about the trees, then you'd have to change your composition ....

robertsloan2
01-12-2011, 09:28 PM
Johannes, thank you! I've registered for the webinar, got my confirmation. Can't wait till this weekend! It's going to be a joy.

I love seascapes and want to do more of them. Not exclusively since I still like trees, rocks, lakes, mountains and nocturnes, but often as a major part of my landscape painting.

Also I wanted to thank you because today I sold a painting within four hours of when I made it available - thanks to all the principles from your classes. I'm painting almost daily to try to internalize them all and know this is starting to work.

Ron, glad you found my comments helpful. I'm itching to paint again and it's dark out, can't wait till tomorrow and hope it's sunny again!

Johannes Instructor
01-12-2011, 10:22 PM
Johannes, thank you! I've registered for the webinar, got my confirmation. Can't wait till this weekend! It's going to be a joy.

I love seascapes and want to do more of them. Not exclusively since I still like trees, rocks, lakes, mountains and nocturnes, but often as a major part of my landscape painting.

Also I wanted to thank you because today I sold a painting within four hours of when I made it available - thanks to all the principles from your classes. I'm painting almost daily to try to internalize them all and know this is starting to work.

Ron, glad you found my comments helpful. I'm itching to paint again and it's dark out, can't wait till tomorrow and hope it's sunny again!
Wow that must feel good huh Robert? Compliments are free but when someone puts the money down then the compliment is real.

winecountry
01-12-2011, 10:33 PM
way to go Robert, congrats on the sale... may there be many more....

I signed up for Sunday...that's a long way away...

rugman
01-12-2011, 11:15 PM
Ron, working with the principals we are using, what the painting is about should have the most real estate, so your painting is about the water...if you wanted it to be about the trees, then you'd have to change your composition ....

Yes, good reminder!

Sherry- Welcome to the forum, and this thread! Thanks for your thoughts, very much appreciated! I reworked this AGAIN. Like beating a dead horse (but am enjoying myself:) )! I did make some improvements, and will post photo tomorrow when I can get a daytime photo.... I cannot seem to get a decent picture of oil painting at night. Looking forward to seeing your work.

Robert- awesome news about the sale!

sherrysherman
01-13-2011, 01:33 AM
Sherry- Welcome to the forum, and this thread! Thanks for your thoughts, very much appreciated! I reworked this AGAIN. Like beating a dead horse (but am enjoying myself:) )! I did make some improvements, and will post photo tomorrow when I can get a daytime photo.... I cannot seem to get a decent picture of oil painting at night. Looking forward to seeing your work.

Thanks, Ron! I've done my fair share of lurking, including over the holidays all of the Johannes threads, beginning with the first one that started off about Clyde Aspevig. I heard about Johannes' December online lessons about 2 days after they ended. :( BUT I have had the opportunity to watch 3 demos and some of the recorded lessons -- still working on them. As I muddle through them, I'm feeling ever more uncertain about my work. Sigh.

(By the way, Just after Christmas I signed on to join WC so I could get in on the conversation while I still had more free time. For those who don't know, as a spam-prevention measure, new members now have to be approved by WC before they can post. Because of holiday issues, it took an unusual number of days for me - plus Paula Ford's help - thanks Paula! So to you other lurkers, just be aware you can't join and start posting immediately. If you think you'll eventually be inspired to post, join now.)

Hope I can contribute.

sherry

marionh
01-13-2011, 02:05 AM
Robert Congratulations.

Sherry Welcome. You'll gain much, and become more confident. I think many of us are feeling a bit at the bottom of the curve at the moment - but learning is what it is all about. We're a good bunch on WC and always willing to help each other.

jbercx
01-13-2011, 07:28 AM
Wow that must feel good huh Robert? Compliments are free but when someone puts the money down then the compliment is real.

When I try to "drop some donation in" it is failing (error 504 page)
Is there perhaps a bank account available to drop in a donation?

Colorix
01-13-2011, 07:31 AM
Robert, congratulations!

susanc
01-13-2011, 09:26 AM
Great, Robert! You've worked hard and it shows. 4 hours is an incredibly short time in this economy, too.

Mentally comparing the first paintings in my painting class (way more than 20 years ago) with the first paintings I've seen here after Johannes' lessons, there is no comparison. These first paintings are far better. To me, it's stunning and I can't wait to get past my commission commitment so I can try my hand at it now. Great work, everyone! Thanks, Johannes...can't wait for more classes! :)

Wait...if I do copies of paintings like Scott Christensen studies, I think it won't detract too much from my intensity of working on the illustrations. I'll give it a try, see how it goes. I'm worried that I'm not going to want to go back to the illustrations once I get started! ;)

rugman
01-13-2011, 09:50 AM
Ok, this is it, no more on this one (its like a bad addiction:) ). Im thankful for everyones comments on this. Hopefully theres no more confusion with this, although it was never intended as a "finished" painting.

Looking forward to seeing what everyone has been working on!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jan-2011/81164-BattleFr.jpg

Colorix
01-13-2011, 10:19 AM
Very nice, Ron, now the yellows are not 'stacked sideways'!

LynnM
01-13-2011, 10:39 AM
And it is good to see the path of the river now, much better!

Congratulations, Robert, wonderful to get that positive encouragement in what you are doing!

robertsloan2
01-13-2011, 12:10 PM
Thanks, Ron! I've done my fair share of lurking, including over the holidays all of the Johannes threads, beginning with the first one that started off about Clyde Aspevig. I heard about Johannes' December online lessons about 2 days after they ended. :( BUT I have had the opportunity to watch 3 demos and some of the recorded lessons -- still working on them. As I muddle through them, I'm feeling ever more uncertain about my work. Sigh.

(By the way, Just after Christmas I signed on to join WC so I could get in on the conversation while I still had more free time. For those who don't know, as a spam-prevention measure, new members now have to be approved by WC before they can post. Because of holiday issues, it took an unusual number of days for me - plus Paula Ford's help - thanks Paula! So to you other lurkers, just be aware you can't join and start posting immediately. If you think you'll eventually be inspired to post, join now.)

Hope I can contribute.

sherry

Sherry, welcome to WC and welcome to the Johannes Vloothuis landscape gang! It's not uncommon to feel a bit overwhelmed and extremely self critical for a while. Johannes imparted so much good information in such a short time that it's a mind bender.

Try doing a lot of sketches and small paintings, especially in pastels. Johannes mentioned several times that pastels are the most beginner-friendly medium for this type of landscape painting.

Also, Johannes is doing another webinar this Sunday, on the 16th. Here's the post where he announced it: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12375162&postcount=187 - be sure to register early and watch for the reminders in your email.

I know my notes help everyone else with these webinars. They help me most of all. It's much easier to remember these things when I jot them down. So try taking notes during Sunday's webinar, just write down everything interesting he says as he says it.

Keep a notebook and pen by your side and do little doodle sketches for examples. If you can get it at the moment in a doodle sketch it becomes a lot easier to get it when you're planning your next painting.

Date everything you do and look for progress rather than expecting to get it all in one go. Everyone here is that intense too, growing that fast. I think sometime we ought to post a "before and after" gallery choosing a typical landscape painting done before Johannes's classes and a latest-best one for each of us. I know I'm seeing that much growth in everyone here, even professionals whose paintings were already stunners before they started. You're in good company. Welcome!

robertsloan2
01-13-2011, 12:11 PM
Ok, this is it, no more on this one (its like a bad addiction:) ). Im thankful for everyones comments on this. Hopefully theres no more confusion with this, although it was never intended as a "finished" painting.

Looking forward to seeing what everyone has been working on!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jan-2011/81164-BattleFr.jpg

Great if unexpected finish! I didn't think you'd take the tree out, but it worked. Worked really well actually. Makes the river the main focus and the bend in the river is so gorgeous now that it's clearly visible.

Well done! Paint a new one!

susanc
01-13-2011, 12:28 PM
It's much easier to remember these things when I jot them down. So try taking notes during Sunday's webinar, just write down everything interesting he says as he says it. Keep a notebook and pen by your side and do little doodle sketches for examples. If you can get it at the moment in a doodle sketch it becomes a lot easier to get it when you're planning your next painting.
Even though Robert's notes are far better than mine, and it's so tempting to rely solely on them, his advice here is quite sound. I think I have higher retention when I also take my own notes. Of course, I've collected Robert's notes faithfully because I prefer them to mine, but whenever I took my own notes, too, it seemed like everything sank in deeper.
I think sometime we ought to post a "before and after" gallery choosing a typical landscape painting done before Johannes's classes and a latest-best one for each of us. I know I'm seeing that much growth in everyone here, even professionals whose paintings were already stunners before they started.I think this would be fascinating, and if the Artists' mag hadn't already made the super-intelligent decision of working with Johannes, they undoubtedly would have once they saw the hard evidence of how good a teacher he is! ;)

sherrysherman
01-13-2011, 12:40 PM
Sherry, welcome to WC and welcome to the Johannes Vloothuis landscape gang! It's not uncommon to feel a bit overwhelmed and extremely self critical for a while. Johannes imparted so much good information in such a short time that it's a mind bender.

Try doing a lot of sketches and small paintings, especially in pastels. Johannes mentioned several times that pastels are the most beginner-friendly medium for this type of landscape painting.

Also, Johannes is doing another webinar this Sunday, on the 16th. Here's the post where he announced it: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12375162&postcount=187 - be sure to register early and watch for the reminders in your email.

I know my notes help everyone else with these webinars. They help me most of all. It's much easier to remember these things when I jot them down. So try taking notes during Sunday's webinar, just write down everything interesting he says as he says it.

Keep a notebook and pen by your side and do little doodle sketches for examples. If you can get it at the moment in a doodle sketch it becomes a lot easier to get it when you're planning your next painting.

Date everything you do and look for progress rather than expecting to get it all in one go. Everyone here is that intense too, growing that fast. I think sometime we ought to post a "before and after" gallery choosing a typical landscape painting done before Johannes's classes and a latest-best one for each of us. I know I'm seeing that much growth in everyone here, even professionals whose paintings were already stunners before they started. You're in good company. Welcome!

Thanks, Robert. You've "met" me on fb, of course! I've definitely seen (and appreciated!) all of your notes. I have been very impressed.

I'm already signed up for Sunday, even though seascapes are not a biggie for me (so little sea out here in Colorado). I've done some (fairly calm water) from photos and have more photos I could use, but more importantly, the lessons always seem to cover more than just the declared subject.

I love pastels. The first "real" art I bought was a pastel (Desmond O'Hagan) and I vowed if I ever got into painting that's what I would use, so a few years ago, I did. I love the immediacy, the vibrancy, the "hands-on" aspect. I do sometimes wish I could modify a stick's color (like JV does with oils, with each brushload), but meanwhile, I'm sticking with the medium.

I have a few paintings still stuck to their boards, staring at me, begging for some rework. I thought they were nearly done, merely in need of some tweaking. Now I roll my eyes, worry about value (too dark, esp the darkest areas), lack of melodic lines, busy no-fly zone... and don't know whether to leave them as is, add those tweaks, rework them entirely, or not bother at all (just start another).

Maybe I'll post one or more and ask here.... :)

sherry

susanc
01-13-2011, 03:17 PM
I'm already signed up for Sunday, even though seascapes are not a biggie for me (so little sea out here in Colorado). Now there's a great excuse for taking a little vacation to the coast! ;) Corona del Mar beach is going to be 75 degrees tomorrow, Laguna will be74...I wish I'd taken advantage of taking more photos when I lived out that way! Probably would have had to trash them all, though, after Johannes' Photography book came out!:D

susanc
01-13-2011, 05:40 PM
Oh, learning about painting palm trees would also be great, but I'm probably alone on that one! :crying: (Trying for the sympathy vote with all those tears...)

winecountry
01-13-2011, 08:25 PM
Well tried to tackle this one today....remember it was a rock "portrait" from the series where that's all I painted studies for. I wanted to add birds...without going through all I went through to figure out a way to get them on...I started with 16 in the flock but now down to 11...

when I got them on, the rock had to completely change to make the birds work as they became the focal point. So all day I've been hacking at the rock and negative painting the water to get a better relationship...never going to work quite right as the rock is in the center but as a study it will work...The real problem is the tiny birds( about 1/2" or so) which need light and shade to be round, and the hardest part, must be done with one stroke of the brush for wings...otherwise they look pasted on and frozen...see the 3rd bird in from the left, just below the wave , it's the only one with the right color, angle and brush work to look like it's in flight... one thing discovered from my photos is they get to synchronized in wing beats, ie they are all at the same place in the wing stroke once they get going...makes a lovely pattern to work with...something bigger one day will be fun.

Before you jump in, remember this is way far not finished or even close I'm still altering the rock water thing, and no bird is finished yet, nor is the wave in back or the light finalized....lots to go, just need a break to think things over.

stopping for a while on this and starting a new painting, this one is going to go slow as it's a bit hard to figure, birds must be against light in some areas ( easier) and against dark in others( harder) and the rock and water are still in flux not right yet

old rock
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jan-2011/103030-piper_rock_.jpg

new rock with birds wip 8x10
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jan-2011/103030-sanderling_flight.jpg

crazywoman53
01-13-2011, 08:55 PM
Colleen I think you have improved the rock. I must be blind though as I don't see any birds at all. It will be interesting to see what you end up doing with this as a final painting.

Good news for me too.. I sold the Country Winter painting right after I finished it! Thanks Johannes!

See you all on Sunday.

winecountry
01-13-2011, 09:02 PM
congrats Crazy...:clap:

there are currently 9 birds painted in...2 or 3 yet to come...the idea is that you get the experience of them as you would there, fast fleeting part and parcel of their environment...so they will show more as I go along but they are there.

when I'm done I hope they are just at the edge of discovery, like see the light the rock and oh wow birds too...

hewill4giveu
01-13-2011, 11:30 PM
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz333/Graneet/beginning%20pastels/pic005-1.jpg

Okay i think im going to go with acrylics or oils pastels just look to blurry or im making them to blurry most likely. Not happy with this but i am trying to learn this stuff. I think i have a short in my wiring what i know and i see in my brain is not getting to my hands LOL . I did do a grey scale, the big trees with the white brings the value up . If i put dark colors in it stands out any suggestions? I was not going to post this just want it to be better but didnt wany anyone to think i wasnt trying. Thanks 2nd landscape in pastels.

Critics are more than welcome anyone

winecountry
01-13-2011, 11:58 PM
if only you beginners only knew how far up the ladder you are starting...not bad:thumbsup:

I'm only going to address one thing, cloning..I grey scaled it and put in pinkdots...what do you think, can you create a more varied tune?

Don't forget if you clone a positive shape you automatically create the same in negative space around it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jan-2011/103030-revise_pic005-1_winter_hewill.jpg

hewill4giveu
01-14-2011, 12:25 AM
OH i see i see it lol i was so worried about the trees forgot to check the other thanks winecountry. Going to do this or another in acrylics see if it is better. Thank you

winecountry
01-14-2011, 01:15 AM
can't see the forest for the trees eh hewill ?;)

I know what I'm about to share will seem to some to be too confining, but the way I work best when learning is to work in a series with defineable goals and actually measure them to see how I'm doing as I go....Most often this works best for me in a series, where I can really focus on one or two issues.

So inspired by the variations on a theme that Johannes did on his seascape, I'm starting one of my own of 7 paintings with the same subject each time. I set this up from one of my photos. Which I spent 2 days altering and simplifying, I realize it could be even more simple but I wanted to practice some reflections, rocks, wave and burst, and the main theme progressive fog, so I needed lots of distance to start so I could get more and more fogged in:lol:

I also wanted to have all the major themes of the coast where I live....I will do brief posts here and do a more detailed thread in Marine if you are interested. I plan to do all 7 first in grey, and then go back and either add color or do a fresh color one of each stage...A lot of work yes, it will get me what I need to understand so worth it and then some IMO. The grey works I will do with a time limit of half hour each, so I don't fuss. I checked the first one with the grey scale from Guerilla painter and put on the # on the post .
I admit I arranged it somewhat from what I already did from the ref from Johannes.

What I found out right away...I'm going to take a page from Scott Christensen, and put in deep darks right away, like he does...he gave me a clue when he said " I always eat up my darks, and have to really try to save them" the same happens to me and my paintings end up with no punch...or me having to repaint several times to get darker accents..

#1 late sunlight hazy day, all planes showing the photo is not accurate, but best I can get, # in pink are accurate.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Jan-2011/103030-7_stage_1_grey_3708.jpg

altered refhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Jan-2011/103030-_3_trial_7_copy.jpg

original ref from a spot I love a little beach with no official name but the creek that runs out to sea in the winter is called Scotty's creek, so locals call it Scotty's cove or beach. with this ref I get rocks stream, reflections waves, just had to stick in the far headlands which you cant see from this view point.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Jan-2011/103030-Scottys_Creek_ref_for_7_stage.jpg

Johannes Instructor
01-14-2011, 09:04 AM
Well tried to tackle this one today....remember it was a rock "portrait" from the series where that's all I painted studies for. I wanted to add birds...without going through all I went through to figure out a way to get them on...I started with 16 in the flock but now down to 11...

when I got them on, the rock had to completely change to make the birds work as they became the focal point. So all day I've been hacking at the rock and negative painting the water to get a better relationship...never going to work quite right as the rock is in the center but as a study it will work...The real problem is the tiny birds( about 1/2" or so) which need light and shade to be round, and the hardest part, must be done with one stroke of the brush for wings...otherwise they look pasted on and frozen...see the 3rd bird in from the left, just below the wave , it's the only one with the right color, angle and brush work to look like it's in flight... one thing discovered from my photos is they get to synchronized in wing beats, ie they are all at the same place in the wing stroke once they get going...makes a lovely pattern to work with...something bigger one day will be fun.

Before you jump in, remember this is way far not finished or even close I'm still altering the rock water thing, and no bird is finished yet, nor is the wave in back or the light finalized....lots to go, just need a break to think things over.

stopping for a while on this and starting a new painting, this one is going to go slow as it's a bit hard to figure, birds must be against light in some areas ( easier) and against dark in others( harder) and the rock and water are still in flux not right yet

old rock
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jan-2011/103030-piper_rock_.jpg

new rock with birds wip 8x10
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jan-2011/103030-sanderling_flight.jpg
We know logically that a rock is a rock and birds are birds and that birds would fly in front of a rock and partially block it. However, from a visual standpoint because of the similarity of value and color the way you placed the birds makes them visually (not logically) appear to be one with the rock which now has offset that nice shape you had. I would place the bird hovering over to rock and none of them appear to be touching it.

Johannes Instructor
01-14-2011, 09:06 AM
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz333/Graneet/beginning%20pastels/pic005-1.jpg

Okay i think im going to go with acrylics or oils pastels just look to blurry or im making them to blurry most likely. Not happy with this but i am trying to learn this stuff. I think i have a short in my wiring what i know and i see in my brain is not getting to my hands LOL . I did do a grey scale, the big trees with the white brings the value up . If i put dark colors in it stands out any suggestions? I was not going to post this just want it to be better but didnt wany anyone to think i wasnt trying. Thanks 2nd landscape in pastels.

Critics are more than welcome anyone

Do you see the repeated concave areas where the water line meets the snow on the right side?

rugman
01-14-2011, 09:20 AM
You did really well, dont be too hard on yourself. Nice design. You got lots of colors bouncing around, which is good. Cloning was the main thing I noticed as well. Its good that you shared it with us, helps us all learn.
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz333/Graneet/beginning%20pastels/pic005-1.jpg

Okay i think im going to go with acrylics or oils pastels just look to blurry or im making them to blurry most likely. Not happy with this but i am trying to learn this stuff. I think i have a short in my wiring what i know and i see in my brain is not getting to my hands LOL . I did do a grey scale, the big trees with the white brings the value up . If i put dark colors in it stands out any suggestions? I was not going to post this just want it to be better but didnt wany anyone to think i wasnt trying. Thanks 2nd landscape in pastels.

Critics are more than welcome anyone

robertsloan2
01-14-2011, 10:58 AM
Colleen, looking forward to that series you're doing. That's a great idea. Like your gray scale versions before color. I've been tempted to do some monochromes too now that I've done a fair number of pastels.

Agree with Johannes about the bird placement.

hewill4giveu
01-14-2011, 11:57 AM
Thank you all very much for you insite. Altho i did not want to post i know i must to grow. So busy trying to see the forest LOL (winecountry) i couldnt see the trees. It is so cotton picking easy watching Johannes explain and do things. I get done and say to myself oh i can do this WELL A GREAT BIG HA to me. But im going to keep going period.


Johannes nope i didnt notice but do now. Thank you
Thanks Wine country for showing where you seen the mistakes. The sky looks much darker too on here . Okay going to paint something in oil today see if i can fair better. Thanks

winecountry
01-14-2011, 03:41 PM
We know logically that a rock is a rock and birds are birds and that birds would fly in front of a rock and partially block it. However, from a visual standpoint because of the similarity of value and color the way you placed the birds makes them visually (not logically) appear to be one with the rock which now has offset that nice shape you had. I would place the bird hovering over to rock and none of them appear to be touching it.

Johannes probably has it right, but since this is a trial work...my plan is to get the light water running off the rock in the right place and put a bird in that area , just to see if it can be done that way...I know I can paint them off the rock easier, and might be a better painting, but won't know until I try what happens...that's the beauty of studies....


came back to edit this....just had a flash of insight...seems like mostly I paint to find out if something will work or how it works more that to make a painting...it seems to me most others here are painting to make a painting, to sell, or show or just to make a painting to have... hard to say this in words...but right now what I find out is way more important than the result...and like learning to walk...falling down is just as interesting as standing up. I have little interest in the final finished piece of work....that will change I hope as I finally get some skills and mastery to apply to making a real art work.

robertsloan2
01-14-2011, 05:16 PM
Colleen, that makes sense. It's a great thing to do. I think it's cool that you're mostly experimenting in these. I hope the critiques help even if you're not focusing on doing finished paintings yet.

susanc
01-14-2011, 06:23 PM
Yeah, I think I'm going to concentrate for a while on studies myself. Not nearly as complicated as your's, though! ;)

rugman
01-14-2011, 08:05 PM
...seems like mostly I paint to find out if something will work or how it works more that to make a painting...

Basically what I've been doing as well. I've learned a ton about scrapping off paint, reworking, how many layers to make mud, practicing abstract design, using idea photos, color mixing, etc, etc:) Most important for me is to PAINT, JUST DO IT, and incorporate Johannes techniques into the work. In fact I've lost a lot of sleep lately, staying up late painting.

I couldnt decide what to paint last night so I copied one of Clyde Aspevigs paintings. I think its a small field study or plein air.

Clyde's version:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Jan-2011/81164-clyde_aspevig_fall_color_690.jpg

My version. 9 x 12 oil. Spent about 2hrs. Not quite so strong of blues in real life, camera exaggerated them. It was surprising how fun this was. I didnt spend a whole lot of time trying to match colors exactly, just wanted something fun and not too time consuming.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Jan-2011/81164-AspevigcopyR.jpg

Davkin
01-14-2011, 09:11 PM
Hey, that's not a bad copy Ron! I'd be happy with that, especially since it's an Aspevig, his stuff ain't easy to copy!

David

winecountry
01-14-2011, 09:44 PM
isn't it amazing Ron, it looks so simple but when you go to paint it , it ain't!

Yes Robert critiques are always welcome.

mtnrunner
01-15-2011, 12:38 AM
Just now catching up with all these posts. Lots of nice work out there folks! I mostly lurk, but really enjoy the conversations, and very much looking forward to the demo on Sunday, and then the hope for the online classes to start soon!

I am just about finished with a still life.. not landscape, but many of the same priniples apply re: edges, cloning, design, composition, etc. etc. In fact, I was hearing a voice in my head while painting.
No cloning! Watch out for dreaded triangles! Consistent light effects!
No big empty spaces!
ha... wonder where that voice came from?:)

Davkin
01-15-2011, 12:59 AM
I finally have another one to show, however this one is not acrylics. Well, it started as an abandoned acrylic but I decided to overpaint it with oils. Yep Johanness, I was listening during the demo last Sunday, I just wasn't logged onto JustinTV so I couldn't respond. That was the push I need to try oils I guess. I never tried oils before and I was fed up with the acrylics. Painting with acrylics just wasn't fun for me, felt like I was fighting the paint all the time...not so with oils! I had so much fun doing this I lost track of time. Not that it's great or anything, I'm sure everybody here will see plenty of ways it can be improved, so I'm not calling this finished, I anxiously await suggestions to make it better. I have another failed acrylic I'll try to rescue this weekend. This photo isn't great, the only place I could find to photograph it without glare was the bathroom. :lol:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Jan-2011/201970-autumm_path-01.jpg

It's 8x10 BTW.

David

mtnrunner
01-15-2011, 01:30 AM
Beautiful colors!
One suggestion I have is to think about the "planes of light" (for all you John Carlson fans out there). The road or path is basically parallel to the source of light (the sky), so it gets more light than upright planes, like the trees. As a big shape, the trees present less of their mass directly to the sun or sky, so they appear darker. Though certain lighting schemes can change this (early morning, late afternoon when the sun is low) most of the time flat planes like fields, roads, marshes, etc. are lighter in value than the upright trees, and the slanted
planes of hillsides and mountains are somewhere in the middle there.
If you could put this in black and white, you would see that all the values are very similar. Maybe try lightening up the path.
Also, I am not sure if the area in the top left part of the canvas is a hillside, or more variations of trees. It might help to push that back in the distance by
both graying down the colors and softening the edges.

have fun with those oils!!
The thing I love about oils is that the paint itself is so sensual.... Getting variation of paint thickness and texture is so visually entertaining! I am not sure you can do that as well with any other medium.

Davkin
01-15-2011, 01:38 AM
Okay, here's a grayscale of it. I knew I should have done that.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/201970-Autumm_path-01gray.jpg

I did know that the hillside should be lighter and I tried to scumble some white on it but it's too wet, I'll try to do that tomorrow or Sunday. So you think the pathway should be even lighter? It's awfully hard to judge value with bright fall colors.

David

mtnrunner
01-15-2011, 02:02 AM
I think autumn colors are notoriously difficult! The bright yellows and golds appear lighter to our brain than they really are most of the time, and they seem to reverse the usual value structure..
anyway, I don't know how to do this in photoshop to show you, but it sounds like you have the idea.
Colors in the distance get both grayer and (generally) lighter in value.. Rather than scumbling white, maybe try mixing a grayer (less intense color) of the colors you have there, and soften the edges too.

The path has nice variations in its edges...

Colorix
01-15-2011, 04:37 AM
David, there's a lot in this that really works well, you're good at simplification! The pathway wouldn't necessarily be much lighter. Does it need to be lighter (or darker, for that matter) to make the painting say what you want it to say? If the path is important, make it clearer by either hue, value, or chroma, if it is not important, then it is fine as is now.

What really attracts attention is the upper third of the painting, as the contrasts are greatest there. The patches of snow on hillside could be toned down (darkened) considerably, as they indeed create a patchy look. Watch out for the spot where hill and treetrunk meet, to the right, in sky-hole. The hill ends where trunk starts, which causes the hill to come forward. Whatever is on one side of trunk should continue on the other side of it for there to be a space behind the trunk. Could be either hill or sky, or both but in a 1-third/two-third ratio.

To see Relative values of colours -- squint gently, look through roots of lashes. Reds are mid-dark and dark, oranges mid value, and yellows mid-light to light, approximately. The duller and greyer they get, the yellows can be mid-valued, like Ochre.

Michaelmcg
01-15-2011, 06:05 AM
It's awfully hard to judge value with bright fall colors.

David

Hi David,

I think you've stumbled upon one of the trickiest painting issues here. If you put two dabs of paint on your palette, one titanium white and the other cadmium orange, you will have no difficulty in identifying that the orange is a darker value than the white. Even if you mix up a light neutral grey instead of the white, you should still be able to see that the orange is a darker value. That proves to me that we do not usually confuse chroma/intensity with value.

The reason that the same situation causes problems outdoors is that quite often intense chroma coincides with intense "relative brightness". Take as an example a backlit scene with sunlight coming through bright orange leaves and a sunlit dirt track (much like your painting). There will most likely be much more light coming through the sunlit leaves than bouncing off the dirt track, which fools the eye into thinking it is a lighter value. The problem is that of course we cannot reproduce such situations in paint, since we cannot control the "relative brightness" or amount of reflected light coming off various parts of the painting.

The solution? Well I for one would be interested in what Johannes has to say on this (hopefully when the formal classes get up and running it is something he can address). I think the answer must start with an acceptance that you cannot always paint what you see, and then either crop/edit the scene to avoid having to deal with the problem, or use background dull complementary colours behind the bright leaves to make them appear to glow more than the sunlit track.

Michael

marionh
01-15-2011, 09:33 AM
Here's a fun exercise I did while taking some thinking time on one of my landscape paintings. Whilst rummaging around my 'pile' I came across a quick sketch I did for one of the oil forums monthly challenges.
Looking at it - not too bad I thought (or at least I did at the time :lol: ) I wonder if I can improve it. So here is the before and after.

What do you think?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/42113-landscape_2_800x600.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/42113-landscape_2_redo_800x600.jpg

On brown ingres pastel paper, A4 size.

PS looking at the uploads, they are not quite this dark

Davkin
01-15-2011, 11:04 AM
Definately an improvement Marion. There's a much greater sense of distance in the new version that leads you right into the painting. I like the addition of the ochres as well. The atmospheric perspective is much improved. I'm not sure I like the dark cloud in the corner though, can't really say why. Overall a huge improvement, time well spent.

David

ScottCooper
01-15-2011, 11:13 AM
David, wow! Great abstract colour shapes, one of the hardest lessons to learn, and these are terrific. Now they need a little more gradation/variegation. The pinkish shapes in the upper left seem a bit scattered. disconnected, that area doesn't read well for me.
As for the path being lighter, maybe that's an area to consider the dark-to-light transition that Johannes has mentioned as a helpful lead-in to the painting.
Well done!

Davkin
01-15-2011, 11:17 AM
Colors in the distance get both grayer and (generally) lighter in value.. Rather than scumbling white, maybe try mixing a grayer (less intense color) of the colors you have there, and soften the edges too.

The path has nice variations in its edges...

I'll try covering with grayer colors, it's just hard to do while the paint is still wet without making a mess of things. That's the tough part about oils I guess, it will definately take some getting used to since I'm not all that patient. I can focus on an activity that requires patience, but having to wait on something else before I take take the next step tends to drive me insane. :lol: That's why I liked the idea of acrylic underpainting. Once I learn how to paint right to begin with though I won't have to wait to do major reworking since it will be much closer to what it should be to begin with.

The solution? Well I for one would be interested in what Johannes has to say on this (hopefully when the formal classes get up and running it is something he can address). I think the answer must start with an acceptance that you cannot always paint what you see, and then either crop/edit the scene to avoid having to deal with the problem, or use background dull complementary colours behind the bright leaves to make them appear to glow more than the sunlit track.


Good explanation Micheal. That is one thing I'm learning to do more and more as a beginner artist, is to come to terms with the fact I can't draw or paint things exactly as I see them, and in fact it may not be advisable to anyway.

What really attracts attention is the upper third of the painting, as the contrasts are greatest there. The patches of snow on hillside could be toned down (darkened) considerably, as they indeed create a patchy look.

Thanks Charlie. I wondered while I painted if that was a good design, probably not but I wanted to try it anyway. Maybe if I tackled this design again I'd try less hill and more sky and maybe tone down the foliage in the upper right corner, though it is the closest to the viewer even though it's up high. BTW, that isn't snow up in the mountain but rather light dirt. Like MTN says I should gray down both the dirt and the "trees" and bring their values closer together, that should move the hill back in the distance and hopefully not make the dirt not be mistaken for snow. :lol:

David

Davkin
01-15-2011, 11:21 AM
David, wow! Great abstract colour shapes, one of the hardest lessons to learn, and these are terrific. Now they need a little more gradation/variegation. The pinkish shapes in the upper left seem a bit scattered. disconnected, that area doesn't read well for me.
As for the path being lighter, maybe that's an area to consider the dark-to-light transition that Johannes has mentioned as a helpful lead-in to the painting.
Well done!

Thanks Scott. The foliage in the upper left is supposed to be from a different tree, I guess that's why it looks disconnected. It apparently was a bad choice to put that in, but I had to try it. It would be impossibe to fix it though until the paint dries, but not sure I want to attempt any major rework on this one. Maybe do some small things and then let it be and move on to the next.....lesson learned. :) Maybe by tomorrow I'll be able try some of these great suggestions.

David

Ruthie57
01-15-2011, 11:56 AM
I can't keep up with this thread :o it moves so quick. So please accept my apologies for not commenting on all the great practice work on here. You are all an inspiration :thumbsup:

Colleen, I look forward to seeing your series of the same scene with different emphasis!

I thought I'd start a seascape today, bearing in mind what I've already learned (or trying to...) and then I can do either that one or another after the webinar tomorrow.

I've worked 2 hours so far and this is where I am. I hope to finish tomorrow.

I tend to flit from place to place in the painting. I still have to work on the rocks and the foam is not done to my satisfaction. I also have to blur some edges. The foreground is still at an early stage.

It's soft pastels on pastelmat about 16x12".

I'd be grateful for any comments and critique :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/189061-2.jpg

Devonlass
01-15-2011, 11:59 AM
I just got an e-mail from cyberartlearning saying the Seascape demo is today (Saturday) at 3.00 pm EST but I thought it was supposed to be tomorrow (Sunday). Does anyone know if it has been changed?

Ruthie57
01-15-2011, 12:11 PM
Hi Carol. I got a mail the other day saying Sunday was oversubscribed. The mail included an invitation to attend saturday instead. But, as I'd already registered and, hopefully, reserved my place for the sunday one, I didn't take that up. I hope there is still one on Sun and that I am in!

rugman
01-15-2011, 12:12 PM
isn't it amazing Ron, it looks so simple but when you go to paint it , it ain't!

You got that right! But like you were eluding to the other day, the journey itself, the struggles, failed paintings, the discoveries... are all part of what makes this so fascinating.

David- you got some great things happening there! Sounds like you got plenty of suggestions already. Just keep plugging away, you'll get things figured out with the oils. Good conversation you started too!

Ruth- Looking good. Remember to create some kind of lead-in, in the forground. oh yea- also remember when you have a rock that is separated from the group, it needs to be downplayed

rugman
01-15-2011, 12:16 PM
Yes, the new version shows improvement. Much more interesting shapes in my opinion. Just by adding some melodic lines makes a big difference as well. I like it.
Here's a fun exercise I did while taking some thinking time on one of my landscape paintings. Whilst rummaging around my 'pile' I came across a quick sketch I did for one of the oil forums monthly challenges.
Looking at it - not too bad I thought (or at least I did at the time :lol: ) I wonder if I can improve it. So here is the before and after.

What do you think?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/42113-landscape_2_800x600.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/42113-landscape_2_redo_800x600.jpg

On brown ingres pastel paper, A4 size.

PS looking at the uploads, they are not quite this dark

winecountry
01-15-2011, 12:34 PM
I just went to the link he gave for today, and registered, I paid the donation, and then a screen came up that said the webinar was over....it's 9:30 my time or 12:30 EST and it says its at 3pm EST....

I saw a new painting up as the sample for the webinar so I know it's not the last one...

Any ideas about this, has it happened for anyone else?

Ruthie57
01-15-2011, 12:38 PM
Hi Colleen. I just clicked on my link for Sunday's webinar and it says....come back later....so that's tomorrow then...I hope!

Devonlass
01-15-2011, 12:44 PM
I'm still a bit confused but it seems that it will be on both days, Saturday being the overflow day because too many people have registered for Sunday. I did register for Sunday so I guess I will be OK, though if I'm around this afternoon I will try and attend then, which may help the overcrowding situation on Sunday. (Is anyone following me!!!) I'm a bit concerned though as to why I got the Saturday e-mail when I am registered for Sunday. I'm afraid I will miss both.

Ruthie57
01-15-2011, 12:54 PM
Thanks for your comments on mine Ron. I'll look at making the left hand rock into a series as a lead in. Otherwise the main rocks could lead out......

And as you've brought it to this page can I just say...Marion, this is definitely an improvement to an already good painting. The line of the river looks better and the extra headland gives it more depth. I too am not sure about the dark cloud in the RH top though...it tends to pull my eye to it.

ScottCooper
01-15-2011, 01:17 PM
The same thing happened to me, after I registered for the webinar this morning it sent me to a page that said it was over. I'll go in just before 3:00 and see what happens...

Johannes Instructor
01-15-2011, 02:07 PM
I opened two webinars. One was opened for Sunday but it is now full. Because of that I opened another webinar that will take place today Saturday January 15 at 3 PM EST. If you have registered in the Sunday one you are in already. If you have not registered yet you can only do so for today's webinar. Here is the link:
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/662925766

Johannes Instructor
01-15-2011, 02:08 PM
The page doesn't say the webinar on Sunday is over. It says it is full

robertsloan2
01-15-2011, 06:36 PM
I'll come in a bit late tomorrow so that I'll be there to take notes if there's room. I was in today and got ten pages of notes, so I'll scan them now and post them. Thank you for a wonderful Seascapes webinar!

Here we go - first five pages:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-3.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-4.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-5.jpg

robertsloan2
01-15-2011, 07:04 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-6.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-7.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-8.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-9.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2011/70184-Class-Jan-15-10.jpg