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jackiesimmonds
01-19-2003, 07:01 AM
okay, I have taken a lot of stick from some of you cheeky people lately .... insinuating that I am tough as old boots, you rotten lot..........so just to show that I have a soft heart, have a look at these, one pastel, (wip)and one photo I have taken.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jan-2003/1805-sharing_a_secret.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jan-2003/1805-baby_group.jpg

Don't you just LOVE this photo???

Jackie

Luvy
01-19-2003, 07:11 AM
Jackie that photo is so cute You have to do it or some of it The expressions are priceless *S* Love your painting also *S*
Boy what a reference pic you could have all kind of paintings from that one LOL

sunny
01-19-2003, 07:59 AM
Jackie,

On your drawing..i love the way the diagonals of your strokes go one way and the little ballerinas go the other way...

The photo is pretty cute..

As far as old boots...I have a pair that I'll never get rid of...because they are tough..I can rely on them...and that worn in feeling makes them very soft...my favorite pair...

We value your words...the tough ones and the softer ones...:)

Dark_Shades
01-19-2003, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by jackiesimmonds
okay, I have taken a lot of stick from some of you cheeky people lately .... insinuating that I am tough as old boots, you rotten lot..........so just to show that I have a soft heart, have a look at these, one pastel, (wip)and one photo I have taken.

Jackie

Ooooo I dont know what you mean lolol :D ... awww look at the photo lol...... so adorable..... look how they are all fidgeting hee hee

... your painting is lovely Jackie...... the colours in the dress gorgeous!!
I know you struggle with figures and these look quite good... the image is a bit too small.... but the little girl on the left .... her arm could be a bit 'iffy' and maybe the placement of her hand.. if you could post a larger pic to help
Its a lovely composition... but the only thing I really do have a problem with is the background... I know this is still WIP but at the moment.... Im not sure if thats a back wall or the floor? If all the darker blue is the floor I would check your perspective as it gives the impression of slopping upwards to the lighter wall.

Glad to see you joining in the fun . :) lol you should see some of my threads..... they are a riot lolol!!

sundiver
01-19-2003, 08:48 AM
On a cuteness scale of 1 to 10, this photo is a 15!
...and your pastel is lovely as always. Love the colors in their dresses.

meowmeow
01-19-2003, 08:52 AM
I am tough as old boots

lol! Now why would anyone say that! Besides, I LOVE my old boots...they are comfy and fit perfectly. There are times that nothing else will do! lol!

I see your soft heart peeking through though...your pastel is wonderful. The girls are so engrossed in what they are doing. Beautiful.
ANd yes, I do love that photo. Lots of good reference material there. WE expect to be seeing tons of pastels of little dancer girls.

Thanks Jackie...and we do love you. REally! :D

Sandy

Katherine J
01-19-2003, 12:28 PM
Love the dynamics of the two little ballerinas and the colours. And that photo, well it's just a classic! What do you do - do you just go to a ballet school and ask if you can take photos, or do you have an 'in' with someone?

Katherine

jackiesimmonds
01-19-2003, 02:22 PM
glad you all like the pics, pastel and photos.

Yes, Dark Shades, I am aware that the floor and background don't look quite right - yet. Hopefully I will be able to sort it out. It isn't a good photo, and the arm appears to have light patches, which dont appear in the original. Most odd. The hand doesn't worry me too much - I know it might not be accurate, but I dont feel it matters really,I dont want it to attract too much attention anyway.

Katherine ...Yes, I do visit a local ballet school. The woman who runs it was amazing ... without batting an eyelid, she said I could sit in on any of the the classes, and either sketch or photograph. I offered to give her copies of all my photos, which she was delighted about. I was thrilled, as you can imagine, and I have used loads of the photos, particularly some they allowed me to take "in the wings" when they put on a show. Here is one of my favourites, of a group of bigger girls:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jan-2003/1805-adult_group_in_the_wings.jpg

It doesn't have the "cute" factor of the little kids, but I am pleased with the end result in terms of drama. I composed it, using about 4 of my photos, and a bit of artistic licence!!

I also work with a "model" at home, and have done quite a few pics from those sessions, and to back up my drawing in general, I attend a life class - well, I did before Xmas anyway. Now I am panicking, and trying to get loads done so that I will have enough I like, to choose from for the exhibition invitation. I tend to be my own hardest critic, and never think anything is good enough!

Jackie

Dark_Shades
01-19-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by jackiesimmonds

Yes, Dark Shades, I am aware that the floor and background don't look quite right - yet. Hopefully I will be able to sort it out. It isn't a good photo, and the arm appears to have light patches, which dont appear in the original. Most odd. The hand doesn't worry me too much - I know it might not be accurate, but I dont feel it matters really,I dont want it to attract too much attention anyway.
Jackie

Sorry Jackie .... probably sticking my neck out here.... but I Do feel that when portraying figures and bodily parts :D .... it very much matters, in portraying them correctly!.. perhaps thats why you struggle with them because you dont think it matters - attention is brought by them being incorrect - obviously if you are happy with it thats fine.... its your painting.... just trying to help


Why are you taking life drawing classes and have a model if when you paint a figure it doesnt matter to you if your proportions are wrong?

Katherine J
01-19-2003, 03:24 PM
Jackie that 'in the wings' one is just deleightful. I'm always so impressed when someone takes a number of photos and then composes a piece. The colour, placement of figures and drama of the shadows is so pleasing. You've certainly given me an idea about approaching our local ballet school. I'd really like to get into doing something with figures.

I'd sure love to be able to see your exhibition.

I too go to weekly life drawing, and have been for 6 years, so in theory it should help if I tried something like this. I'm now doing a 10-week painting life drawing - my first effort was pretty scary - definitely room to improve there!

Katherine

crumbedbrains
01-19-2003, 03:39 PM
Hey Jackie,
Now "as tough as ol' boots" is a tad strong but I gotta tell you, you've got passion & gusto!!! . . .saw your thread in Still Life after I got no response to my first post there and I thought . . ."Now THERE'S a woman!!!" LOL
As far as the soft centre . . . . starting to draw the parallel with chocolates . . and I'm not going there!! :D
Thanks always for your input!
Crumby (with NO L!!!) . . I can be assertive too y'know!:D :D

KarenU
01-19-2003, 09:59 PM
Your little girls are just precious, both the pastel and the photo. I absolutely love the dramatic lighting you've used with the older girls waiting in the wings!

llis
01-19-2003, 11:14 PM
Bravo Jackie.

Hey...aren't you the same artist that said you couldn't paint people? Give us a break... there is nothing you can't do. :)

Mikki Petersen
01-20-2003, 01:06 AM
Oh, Jackie, that photo of all the little girls just cries for painting. I can see several really winning pieces coming from there.

As for being"tough as an old boot"...I do not see how anyone can look at your paintings and not know you are a warm compassionate person. Your paintings just cry of it. These two paintings for instance, the little girls are obviously sharing a moment and the scene in the wings brings back all those butterflies int he stomach feelings of stage fright or performance excitement. In fact there is a fluttery feeling about the girls that is evocative of butterflies.

jackiesimmonds
01-20-2003, 03:33 AM
"Why are you taking life drawing classes and have a model if when you paint a figure it doesnt matter to you if your proportions are wrong?"

Well, the answer to this is that of course it matters to me if proportions are wrong, I hate that .........what I was trying to say was that in this instance, I do not feel that the hand is "wrong" or that the proportions are out. It is just somewhat unresolved, and hopefully slightly hidden in the folds of the dress. I have looked long and hard at Degas' figures, and I can see that sometimes, elements such as hands, and even feet, are left unfinished, and are left as simple shapes, just enough information there to suggest that it is a hand or a foot. I felt that the proportions were right in this instance, and I did not need to add more information. I have shown the picture to quite a few people, and no-one has commented (especially my hubby, who is a hard one to please) about that hand, so I figured it was probably OK to leave it as it is. The main thrust of this picture is the dynamics of the positions of the two little girls, and the echoing curves in the image. I am sorry if the hand offends you ....I value your judgement so I will have another look at it and see if I can make any improvement!!

Thanks everyone else for your comments, they are very heart-warming. I know I give out the impression of a tricky character because of my perhaps too-outspoken approach ......... the last comment, quite funny really, is that I reminded someone of a Rugby Team!!! Wow.

And yes, lets not talk about chocolates. This week, I MUST DIET. Ho hum.

Jackie

Dark_Shades
01-20-2003, 08:43 AM
no..... I didnt say the hand was wrong but the placement of it ..... I can totally understand not being able to view the hand completely has is hidden in the folds of the dress..... what struck me initially is the angle...... as her body weight is leaning towards the other little girl ..... felt a normal position would be the hand placed firmly flat on the floor to take the weight - perhaps its my misunderstanding of your interruptation of how to read your paintings :confused: when I see a painting that catches my eye, after the initial ohhhh ahhhs :) ..... hopefully it keeps my eye after the initial impression of the overall picture and then I actually 'Look' at what I am viewing for eg. your second painting..... gorgeous colours as we expect from you ..... but after the initial impression as its a painting of figures I start to look at each and every one...... whats she looking at..... what she doing..... but, when I do ..... I find also there are a couple of figures that do not look right to me ...... take it with a pinch of salt Jackie.... no one else has commented on them, so it must look fine to them and you - I suppose it boils down to a matter of view point...... is that a grey dog or a dirty dog? .. glass of wine half empty or half full

lol perhaps I should just stick to .... Ohhh thats lovely :D

jackiesimmonds
01-20-2003, 10:36 AM
Dark Shades ....Well, the thing is .... I know that I do not paint figures perfectly ......but then again, I don't paint ANYTHING perfectly! It's just that if it is flowers, or buildings, or landscapes..... you wouldn't notice !!! I agonised over this before deciding to tackle this ballet series, and looked hard at other artists' works of figures - and in almost every case, I found things I could criticise about the figures. (Particularly in Degas' pictures, funnily enough! AND he worked from photos!) And in the end, I decided that I was not going to stop myself from having a bash at painting these figures "in situ" as it were, because a) they are not "figure paintings", they tell more of a story and b) if I wait until I can do everything perfectly, I will never do a darn thing!

If people like the picture enough to buy it, despite its faults, then I have managed to achieve something, in that picture, that appeals to a buyer, and if the anatomy isn't quite right, and they spot it and STILL buy, then clearly they don't mind! Sometimes, the faults are what gives a bit of interest and life to a picture, I keep telling myself!

Having said that, I wouldn't leave something that really bothered me - heads too large, distorted proportions - things that screamed out "Wrong Wrong!" to me - but there is NO WAY I can get it perfect, so I just have to do the very best I can. Often the more I fiddle, the worse it gets! I am happy with the two figures right by the stage, but know that there are some problems with the ones in the group, if I "dissect" the picture hard enough. But this picture is not about accurate figure drawing. It is about the light streaming through from the stage; the anticipation and absorption of the watching pair; and all I wanted out of the group on the left was a SUGGESTION of waiting dancers. However... please fire away and tell me which ones bother you, and what you would do to correct it. It might be that I just haven't seen it, and I would really value your input.

As I said before, I will look again at that hand, but will have to wait until I can get someone to pose for me!

Incidentally - I am not even beginning to set myself up alongside Degas, (though it doesn't hurt to dream!) but just for a moment, have a go at dissecting the figures in these pictures - it is rather enlightening:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2003/1805-degas2.JPG


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2003/1805-degas1.JPG

I shall check back for the help with the dancer group............
Jackie

jackiesimmonds
01-20-2003, 12:09 PM
There is a lot of truth in the saying that goes something like "you can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc".

Dark Shades, I want you to know that you are totally responsible for my headache and backache.
After writing the above post, I couldn't leave it alone, could I, so those pics both went back up on the board and I studied them carefully, trying to see with YOUR eyes.

As a result, I have completely altered the hand of the seated child, and have adjusted the ballerinas in the wings ... quite a bit. Even to my somewhat un-fussy eyes, they do look better.

Anther saying goes something like "be careful what you ask for.............."well, I got more than I bargained for - but I have to say thanks to you . I may not have changed things without your comments, and I am glad I did.

I spent 7 hours at the easel yesterday, tackling that "line-up" pic, which I could not resist ( and no I am not going to post it, goodness knows how many corrections I would have to do) - and now these corrections - I am completely wrecked and am off to stare at the TV.

Jackie

Mikki Petersen
01-20-2003, 02:59 PM
Someone recently posted a comment to me regarding a piece I was troubling over: If you want a perfect image, use a camera. As with the Degas paintings you posted, Jackie, I believe that often the feel and impression the painting gives off is what's important. Often errors in perspective give off a disharmony and then I look for what's wrong. I do not feel any disharmony looking at these ballerina paintings.

On the other hand, I have learned to trust Dark-Shade's eye. She has a very detail oriented approach to reviewing a painting and always seems to be able to pick out anything that is at all off.

Anna Marie
01-20-2003, 03:21 PM
Well this is an interesting thread where to start. Having one of Jackie's flowerpainting Videos and heard her voice I have always thought her a big Softee so there and its very healthy to be assertive and a Softee in fact its the only way.

MUCH more important reading this thread has given me a startling realisation. Its the Degas thing and I had never ever remembered it until today. When I was 9 or 10 I painted Horses galloping and dogs (border collies). When I was 27 I started Horseriding and I still love border collies but I just realised that when I was about 13 one of the nuns that taught Art gave me a poster of a Degas Ballerina and it was the first time I ever understood what an Artist was and thought I would like to do that. I never wanted to paint Ballerinas but get emotion and some sort of feeling into a picture.

I used to be one of those cute little ballet girls as well and I dont think a painting should be true to real life it should Portray what the Camera misses but it is difficult because if you are a perfectionist you are never happy. Although I suppose if one of Jackies Ballerinas had one leg a foot shorter than the other we might notice it a bit more.

Its interesting too to read Dark Shades comments as I didnt focus in on some of these points until her beady eye spotted them
far more useful than the bloke wot sits in my armchair and tells me I dont see what your making a fuss about it looks alright to me (this of course referred to a crisis when a dogs eyes were wrong)

Dark_Shades
01-20-2003, 04:08 PM
Yikes.... what alot to comment on ..... will come back to Jackie in a bit :)
Originally posted by 1mpete
Someone recently posted a comment to me regarding a piece I was troubling over: If you want a perfect image, use a camera.


lolol I think this was Jackie :D


On the other hand, I have learned to trust Dark-Shade's eye. She has a very detail oriented approach to reviewing a painting and always seems to be able to pick out anything that is at all off.

Thank you Mikki for this comment, it is much appreciated ..... and I hope Im adding something of value to to the thread

Dark_Shades
01-20-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Anna Marie


Its interesting too to read Dark Shades comments as I didnt focus in on some of these points until her beady eye spotted them
far more useful than the bloke wot sits in my armchair and tells me I dont see what your making a fuss about it looks alright to me (this of course referred to a crisis when a dogs eyes were wrong)

:eek: I dont have beady eyes :p ... they are big and brown... thank you :D lol

Dark_Shades
01-20-2003, 04:37 PM
I am not sure where to begin ....... but will just pick at things here and there ....Originally posted by jackiesimmonds
Dark Shades ....Well, the thing is .... I know that I do not paint figures perfectly ......but then again, I don't paint ANYTHING perfectly! It's just that if it is flowers, or buildings, or landscapes..... you wouldn't notice !!!

..... landscapes... yes, flowers yes .... buildings no! - you would have to get your perspectives right, even with an impressionistic portrayal I would of thought.
(Particularly in Degas' pictures, funnily enough! AND he worked from photos!) ..... I went and looked at some paintings by Degas, if they were here now in WC .... he'd be getting the same comments from me to him as you are Jackie :D

And in the end, I decided that I was not going to stop myself from having a bash at painting these figures .. I should hope not too!
as it were, because a) they are not "figure paintings"
.. but the paintings have figures .... so why cant they be in correct proportions?..... like I said before...... Perhaps I just do not understand impressionism :confused: - it doesnt matter that figures are out of proportion ....... its a matter of the whole mood of what the painting conveys? .... I dont understand abstracts either.

If people like the picture enough to buy it, despite its faults, then I have managed to achieve something, in that picture, that appeals to a buyer, and if the anatomy isn't quite right, and they spot it and STILL buy, then clearly they don't mind!
Yup ...... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.......

Having said that, I wouldn't leave something that really bothered me - heads too large, distorted proportions - things that screamed out "Wrong Wrong!" to me - but there is NO WAY I can get it perfect,

... this is really the point I am trying to get at ...... why doesnt it look wrong to you? .... I asked you the question in another thread... which you didnt reply to ...... the one with the Neck.... you obviously didnt think it looked wrong, but clearly it was - Im trying to find out why you dont think they look wrong ...... Im wondering if its that you are concentrating sooooo much on the colours ... shadows etc



I am happy with the two figures right by the stage, but know that there are some problems with the ones in the group, if I "dissect" the picture hard enough.[
... thats the difference I didnt have to disect it .... just saw it straight away
But this picture is not about accurate figure drawing. It is about the light streaming through from the stage;
what would you say to someone whose thread you had commented on about use of tones and shades etc... and their reply to you was..... well its not about light and shade... its about a figure painting?

However... please fire away and tell me which ones bother you, and what you would do to correct it. It might be that I just haven't seen it, and I would really value your input. - thank you Jackie.... will post in a little while

[/QUOTE]

Dark_Shades
01-20-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by jackiesimmonds
[B]

Dark Shades, I want you to know that you are totally responsible for my headache and backache. Ha! and you for mine minus the backache ..... were quits!

After writing the above post, I couldn't leave it alone, could I, so those pics both went back up on the board and I studied them carefully, trying to see with YOUR eyes.
As a result, I have completely altered the hand of the seated child, and have adjusted the ballerinas in the wings ... quite a bit. Even to my somewhat un-fussy eyes, they do look better. ..... well there ya go..... I rest my case :D

Anther saying goes something like "be careful what you ask for.............."well, I got more than I bargained for - but I have to say thanks to you . I may not have changed things without your comments, and I am glad I did.

Well Im glad your'e glad that you did :D

Ha! next time you paint a figure..... I will appear on your right shoulder :angel: .... I promise NOT to comment on your paintings in future ..... unless of course you invite me to :evil:

Dark_Shades
01-20-2003, 05:34 PM
I am Very Fussy .... and VERY particular :D ... as for comments on perfect images and why not use a camera .... Look at the works of Gaka, Crumby, Eclipse... JD Hillberry ..and many others....... have brought realism to another level and beyond... for their artistry in being able to duplicate an image that fools you into first believing its a photograph, but goes beyond that with their skills of colour tone and shading....atmosphere and so on..... that you feel you can reach out and touch...... amazing I say!

..... oops nearly got carried away then hee hee.... Jackie was going to post the pic..... but not very good with PSP ...... so hope its the two that you worked on ........ the two figures to the left...... one seems to have an incredibly long body... dropped waist.... the other.. the colour you have, makes (well in my opinion that is) a very large thigh....... also the length of it she would have to be alot taller than depicted

.... thats it.... all I have to say :)

jackiesimmonds
01-20-2003, 06:52 PM
I never know how to do those blue boxes, so I will just reply to some of the questions. Sorry - this is a bit epic. I will understand if you cannot be bothered to read it folks - just scroll down. It was cathartic for me to write it tho.

Why don't I see abnormalities? Well ...........I was told, as a student, that I would never get proportions right because I simply do not "see" them properly - so perhaps it is my "eye". I have to measure everything. And yes, sometimes I get carried away with the painting's abstract qualities of line, tone, colour, atmosphere etc, and definitely feel that they are more important than pure accuracy. You said it ... you would criticise Degas .... but to me, those pictures are throbbing with life and vitality, and I don't give a hoot that there are some odd legs and hands and arms in there - I am aware of them, but they do not offend me at all. All I see, and marvel at, are the wonderful echoing shapes and rhythms.

Re buildings ... if I get the perspective right, but the proportions slightly wrong, you would not know, unless it was a building you knew well.

I do not think I was the one who said "if you want perfection, use a camera" ... but actually, I do believe that!! Much as I admire the work of Gaka and Crumby for their stunning technical ability, I would not want to paint like that, and would not buy a painting produced in that way. So I cannot relate to that way of working in terms of my own position as a painter. They are totally different painters, producing totally different kinds of work to me. They are realists; I am much more of an impressionist. And yes, for me, the atmosphere and the overall impact of the picture are more important to me than correctly drawn hands and feet. As I said before, I do try to get proportions right ... but do fail from time to time, and do not always see it right away.

What would I say to someone, when commenting on their approach to light and shade, if they replied that this was not what the painting was about? Well - I guess it would depend whether the light and shade elements were clearly the main thrust of the picture rather than anything else, and they weren't working. I cannot answer that out of context. I can only defend my own position by saying that I feel there is a difference between a "figure painting", and a narrative piece like mine. Think for a moment of the work of Klimt. He had figures IN his pictures ... but they weren't figure painting. They were stylised figures, often stretched and distorted, but that didn't matter at all, the picture was much more about abstract shapes, colours and patterns.

In fact, she said, warming to her theme, I sometimes find accuracy in drawing to be somewhat sterile and mechanical. I would rather see less accuracy, and more passion, more sensually rhythmic lines, shapes and forms, more expressiveness. I want to see something of the character of the artist in a drawing or painting ... and I want to see, and sense, delicacy, sensitivity, sorrow, happiness, anger - whatever it is the artist is feeling about the subject, which goes beyond photographic accuracy. Bonnard painted figures in situ - they were slightly odd shapes though, not accurate figure drawings. But Bonnard painted with his heart and soul. The photos of that bathroom show a cold, plainly-tiled room ... but oh the warmth and colour in those paintings! And the singing, joyous colour in that badly-drawn figure! Those paintings "reconstructed" the visual world in a unique and special way, and spoke volumes about Bonnard's inner vision and creativity and joy in painting, rather than his technical abilities.

Of course, it would be great to be able to have accuracy TOGETHER with all these other important elements, but if I have to sacrifice anything, then accuracy of detail it is, I am afraid.

We clearly come from different places in terms of what sits comfortably with our eye, so we will have to agree to differ.

I doubt I will tackle another series of pics, which include figures, for a long time after this!!! My confidence was wobbly before I started, and I have regular crises of confidence in relation to this series. But I am committed now for this upcoming exhibition, so I thank you for your help, and I shall try to do better! Let's put this to bed now, shall we?

Jackie

Dark_Shades
01-20-2003, 07:30 PM
We clearly come from different places in terms of what sits comfortably with our eye, so we will have to agree to differ.

I doubt I will tackle another series of pics, which include figures, for a long time after this!!! My confidence was wobbly before I started, and I have regular crises of confidence in relation to this series. But I am committed now for this upcoming exhibition, so I thank you for your help, and I shall try to do better! Let's put this to bed now, shall we?

Yes as I was reading your last comments.... it was very clear that we have different appreciations of art, though I can still appreciate what you do - and those of many other artists and their mediums within WC whose style may not match my own, I applaud them all - from the humble newbie with their first tentative offering to the top commissioned artists - we all need encouragement and a helping hand no matter where we are on the ladder, if only a pat on the back and a 'well done' - I adore this site, there is so much to learn from and the sharing and caring. The 3 L's ... Look, Listen, Learn.
One thing We ALL have in common...... deep down....We're All Struggling Artists (in one form or another)

.... I wish you success in your exhibition...... and what you have said about impressionism you have no worries, as the people wouldnt give a hoot if the figures are right or wrong - we agree on something else :D .... yes lets put this to bed.... and myself also.... for some strange reason I have a terrible headache

nite nite

....phfff * blows out the candle

chookbrown
01-20-2003, 09:46 PM
Hehehe... we knew you were sweet really.. it does show... LOL

Wow Jackie you've done it again!!!! That first ballet pic is absolutely adorable and I would love to do something like that line up pic in colored pencil it would be gorgeous!!!

But as for that last ballet pic of the older girls... It took my breath away.... I used to dance and I instantly got the jittery feeling in the pit of my stomach like I used to when i was backstage waiting to go on.... it moved me so.. you captured that moment perfectly.... MARVELOUS!!! yes I'm raving but I can still feel the excitement...

Bravo Jackie....


Colleen.. :D:D:D

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Lulu
01-21-2003, 12:05 AM
I love your work and your style Jackie. Am a great fan of yours (why else would I have two videos and a book:D - I bought those before joining wetc) and although I don't have much time at wetc any more if I see a thread or post of yours I always look. Your contribution in teaching and painting is tremendous and hopefully we will get to see more paintings, and teaching, which I have found so valuable.
Please continue with figures, they speak to me of all that you are trying to portray and more ............

Best of luck with your exhibition, I am certain that you will do well.

jackiesimmonds
01-21-2003, 02:42 AM
Sorry about the headache, Dark Shades .....

Funnily enough, Colleen, I did that line-up, using pastel pencils, "copying" it fairly closely because really, I didn't want to change a thing. The only difference is that I had a second photo, with a simply divine extra child on the end, with her toes pointed inwards and her right arm behind her back with her right hand peeking out around her waist while she chewed on her left hand. (So cheeky ... I wanted to kidnap her! She bossed all the other girls around. Perhaps liking her says something about me.........)
It is a somewhat "illustrative" piece , without much painterly input, but it does have the cuteness factor of the photo!

thanks all you girls for all your support and help and encouragement.

J

MarshaSavage
01-21-2003, 07:03 AM
Jackie and all --

Wonderful discussion, great for art! I love your pictures Jackie, they have a wonderful feeling of movement and a moment in time.

In fact, she said, warming to her theme, I sometimes find accuracy in drawing to be somewhat sterile and mechanical. I would rather see less accuracy, and more passion, more sensually rhythmic lines, shapes and forms, more expressiveness. I want to see something of the character of the artist in a drawing or painting ... and I want to see, and sense, delicacy, sensitivity, sorrow, happiness, anger - whatever it is the artist is feeling about the subject, which goes beyond photographic accuracy.

I have cautioned my students many times, I would rather they paint from the heart, even if it means there are some small technical errors with regard to drawing. This does not mean, they should not try to paint as accurately as possible. But, we don't want illustrations, but paintings! Though, I do realize some people want photo-realism and others want abstract, and all those places inbetween.

Keep up the good work -- and I hope to see more figures from you. I think you have a wonderful knack for producing thought-provoking paintings with figures in them -- they have a story to tell and that is what "I" think painting is about.

My two-cents worth!

gredelin
01-21-2003, 02:52 PM
I just have to say: Dark_Shades, your eye for detail is amazing!

And Jackie: so is yours for composition! Your comments about drawing accuracy made me think of Picassos drawings. So much feeling, so much freedom in a simple line.

It's so interesting how we all look at art differently - as different as people listen to music, where some get caught up in the beat, some hear the melody and some only hear the lyrics.

/Gunilla

Anna Marie
01-21-2003, 03:03 PM
I would like to thank both Jackie and Dark Shades (who I now know has big brown eyes not beady ones hee hee) I think this has been a very valuable discussion.
I have a bit of Jackies problem in getting proportins right. Sometimes I will sketch something do it wrong measure it up and my hand and eye put it back exactly as it shouldnt be.

It is really interesting the different form art takes and our perception. I didnt like abstract art and now I can appreciate some of it and adore some of it (but sadly not Picasso).

I did not like impressionists and then went on a workshop with a Japanese lady who did fantastic theings to Rhododendrons and Azaleas this opened my eyes further and now I adore some impressionistic paintings.

So gettting to the point we all have a different perception of what is Art what is Beauty and what we are aiming for isnt that wonderful.

I will however take a long time to see Art in a Pile of Bricks Dead sheep or dead bodies!

jackiesimmonds
01-22-2003, 01:14 PM
Quote: "I will however take a long time to see Art in a Pile of Bricks Dead sheep or dead bodies!"

Me too. I dislike those things. AND I am not at all sure it IS art. I suspect it's more a case of the King's New Clothes! But one thing is for sure ... the "artists" who produce those works certainly would not like what I produce!! So, the dislike is pretty mutual.

:)

Jackie

ps PLEEEEEAS will someone tell me how to do blue boxes ?

Dark_Shades
01-22-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by jackiesimmonds
Quote: "I will however take a long time to see Art in a Pile of Bricks Dead sheep or dead bodies!"

Me too. I dislike those things. AND I am not at all sure it IS art. I suspect it's more a case of the King's New Clothes! But one thing is for sure ... the "artists" who produce those works certainly would not like what I produce!! So, the dislike is pretty mutual.

:)

Jackie

ps PLEEEEEAS will someone tell me how to do blue boxes ?

on the bottom where you view the last persons comments... there is options... search.. profile etc.... on the right is a button 'quote' ... click this and it will automatically take what that person has said and place in the 'blue box' or you can simply type in any comment by typing [Q u o t e] which tells it to start the box...... and when to finish by typing [ / Quote ] (but not spaced out.... this was just to prevent it from putting in blue box :D

jackiesimmonds
01-22-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Dark_Shades


on the bottom where you view the last persons comments... there is options... search.. profile etc.... on the right is a button 'quote' ... click this and it will automatically take what that person has said and place in the 'blue box' or you can simply type in any comment by typing [Q u o t e] which tells it to start the box...... and when to finish by typing [ / Quote ] (but not spaced out.... this was just to prevent it from putting in blue box :D

Thanks D-S . I shall be using LOTS of blue boxes from now on. After a dreadful day spent hunting for a really important record book (all the paintings I've sold since 1999) without any success - tho I do have a very tidy studio now - I shall try to forget my frustration by seeing how many blue boxes I can create.



J

llis
01-22-2003, 01:50 PM
Jackie:

Thank you so much for putting this work up and allowing all of us to discuss and learn from it.

I hope that everyone will come back to this thread and click on the Rate button at the bottom so a copy of it can be moved to the Pastel Hall of Fame. There is a lot of learning in this thread...and more than just about Pastel work. :)

Thanks again... I'm going to rate now... how about you?

Dark_Shades
01-22-2003, 03:00 PM
There has been something niggling at me with this thread – came away not feeling happy ….. sort of gut reaction, which instinct tells me something isn’t right. Ive spent days mulling over what it could be. So Im sort of thinking out loud here to myself. Many comments come back to mind…… Jackie’s of flowing line and curves….figures not important ….. Shadows, atmosphere… Gaka’s and Crumbies works. (personally no way could I spent that many hours on one painting….. and wouldn’t want to)…..
I think every artist no matter what level they are at or medium they use, puts a bit of their soul into each and every painting, and hopefully conveys a sense of feeling/emotion, a story ….
.. Am I the only one to see how I do? …..
Ha! Have quite often felt like the little boy from the story of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’ (funny you should of used that too)
So what IS the problem I have……????
What IS Impressionism The most conspicuous characteristic of Impressionism was an attempt to accurately and objectively record visual reality in terms of transient effects of light and colour
Would I have really commented on Degas’s figures……. Maybe yes… maybe no …… was it beyond he’s ability to draw figures better? Lowry’s matchstick people doesn’t give me a problem…… so what does?….. studied Degas figures … the hands not drawn give me no problem….. they are disappearing into light.. so whats wrong with this picture?…. Then I Hit the nail on the head of whats been bothering me…. Degas (though feel he could of perhaps drawn them better or maybe he couldn’t)… when he’s figures were wrong (IMHO) he got them ALL wrong!!….. so your eye excuses the errors.. all he’s figures are of similar/complimentary shapes and sizes.
Jackie: your paintings hit you with your wondorous colours…. Hues… lights and shadows…. Can imagine the atmosphere…… as for all artists its not just a matter of first impressions….. you want to keep their gaze, their attention… draw them in closer… so your eyes wander around the painting…. The story…. You look deeper…. See the figures at the wing….. your eyes feast on perhaps what you would call the lines… curve… flow….. my eye goes to the figures to the left…the flow stops.… two rogue figures…. My eye stops.

Im sorry Jackie…… I just really had to work out what I felt was bothering me….. I thank you for allowing us to view your work and comment……. I have learnt a great deal from these comments……I really NOW can put this to bed.
Perhaps I DO view things differently from anyone else…… just think of me as ……

The boy from the story of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’

jackiesimmonds
01-22-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Dark_Shades


Im sorry Jackie…… I just really had to work out what I felt was bothering me….. I thank you for allowing us to view your work and comment……. I have learnt a great deal from these comments……I really NOW can put this to bed.


Well, I thought we had put this to bed, agreeding to disagree.

Let me be clear here. I did NOT say that the "figures are not important". In fact, I agreed that the figures in my works aren't always "right", but what I DID say is that for me, this is LESS important than the overall atmosphere.

You may, Dark-Shades, be able to "put this to bed" .... but while you may have cleared your mind, in the process you made some remarks which I do not think were necessary - "rogue figures" is NOT a pleasant phrase. I am now feeling quite panic-stricken about my entire output for this exhibition, and I am worried sick. Someone said to me in a pm that they hoped this thread would not have put me off a) posting to WC and b) doing more figure paintings ...........but sadly, it has. I won't post any more of these pics, because although I recognise that it is good to correct serious faults, I also recognise that it is not at all good to begin to question everything one does.

This has taken me right back to my college days. I would have a tutor come up behind me and say "Jackie, I think you had better look harder at that, it just isn't right. Maybe you should start again." I would sit and feel dreadful, until 30 minutes later another tutor would come up behind me and say "Oh Jackie, that is one of the best things I have seen you do in ages".

The bottom line is, therefore.........learn to trust your OWN judgement. I am a HUGE fan of Arthur Maderson, who once wrote: "...we alone must assume responsibility for developing within ourselves our capacity to respond more sensitively, more creatively, and more affectionately, if we are to paint with heart and soul." I try, in every painting, to respond in this way, and to paint with my heart and soul. But this determination can so easily be undermined. While I can handle helpful suggestions like "perhaps you could have another look at that hand", I cannot handle comments like "two rogue figures". particularly when I have been open enough to admit to a) lack of ability and b) vulnerability, so, folks, I am bowing out of this "discussion" RIGHT NOW. Sorry, one and all, but enough is enough.

J

Jackie

Dark_Shades
01-22-2003, 05:43 PM
Im am very sorry Jackie that you feel this way ..... no slur or hurt was my intention.....
Im trying as you are to learn and understand - I hoped I was helping.

I apologise if my turn of phrase upset you.... I am not as clever as you with words.

I have not questioned all what you have done only the figure :confused:

You have countless times commented on peoples works in correction... did they take offense, your tone and manner too have been mentioned...... I use ONE word and I get this !!!

Am I not allowed to comment on your work? Is there one rule for you and one rule for me :confused:

I have openly admired your work ....... in this thread a number of times and in others...... this one ill choosen word has caused this reaction :confused: :confused: :confused:

Redsy333
01-22-2003, 05:48 PM
IRONY works in many ways;)
Here is a fine EXAMPLE of a thread I posted not long ago on How one perceives ART! I was shut down not to long after posing the question, I did however get a few excellent comments from a few.
The question was along the lines of:
Is there such a thing as Bad ART?
You see it was my argument that everyone perceives beauty/Art differently.
So is it fair to say there is such a thing as "Bad Art"?

I find it unfair to judge art in a way that would change or corrupt it, just to suit a personal preference. Whether it be a LANDSCAPE, STILL LIFE, or even a FIGURE! Many times when Critique ones work we often forget that it "Someone Else's" work , not our own!
So we neglect to factor in that persons style and creativity, which is really a very IMPORTANT factor when critiquing a Picture.

This whole thread is a wonderful example of walking a fine line of what is viewed as right and wrong!
IMHO We should step back and realize ...... There is no such thing as "BAD ART"! When ever anyone creates something its a wonderful thing!

sunny
01-22-2003, 06:12 PM
Well said..Redsy...and I am in complete agreement.

This thread is a learning experience as many have mentioned...and it should be percieved in that manner...it would be a shame to see it turn into something of such a personal nature.

I only see a lot of caring supportive comments thru out....its amazing how just a few are the ones that are dwelt on....It has come down to two different points of view..which are both valid...

Everyone is trying to learn..and grow as artists...because it is our passion..our love...our sense of being...it is the way I express myself best..I fumble with words...to let one or two words or phrases....interupt the flow and beauty of what you are creating...would be a shame...especially since they were expressed from the point of learning...

There is room for everyones creativity..you have the power to choose...I choose to see the encouragement, the talent, the interesting points of view...

:)
There is too much to create..and so little time

Mo.
01-22-2003, 06:50 PM
Well said Redsy and beautifully put Sunny.

I think the day we stop learning as artists is the day we hang up the canvasses/brushes etc.,. I feel we never ever reach perfection try as we might, but what we all can do is give something ourselves in every painting we paint for others to enjoy.
Many years ago when I first started painting, I attended a leisure painting class, the tutor there said something to me that has always stuck, {quote} When you have finished this painting, make sure your next one is an improvement, the day you cannot improve on your ability is the day you stop learning. {unqote}
I have valued what that man said to me and still do.

We all strive to improve, we all make mistakes, but still carry on because we love what we do and want to be master of it.

Mikki Petersen
01-22-2003, 09:14 PM
Redsy, Sunny and Mo, you ladies are very eloquent in stating the simple truth. Thank you.

Zarathustra
01-23-2003, 06:23 AM
Wow Jackie, I knew you'd planned to do these drawings, but I haven't seen them until now! I'm familiar with Degas' pastels in the same theme and I'm guessing you've drawn a lot of inspiration from his work? However you've gone about it, it's really paid off. :D

lol - tough as old boots. I don't think anyone really believes that, you're more like one of those pastels that is hard on the outside and soft on the inside... er, hold on a minute I don't think such a pastel exists!

jackiesimmonds
01-23-2003, 06:52 AM
Thanks, Z. Just think of me as a cactus.

J;)

Zarathustra
01-23-2003, 07:30 AM
lol. Some of the cacti on my windowsill have poisonous sap Jackie! How about those trebor mints, they have a hard coating and a soft centre. :)

jackiesimmonds
01-23-2003, 01:40 PM
Yeah, ok, I'm happy with being a mint.

angecald
01-23-2003, 11:24 PM
Jackie, I love the dancers-in-the-wings picture. The bright stage light just splashing into the shadows, and the red glow - the glow of passion - and the suppressed excitement of the dancers. You've got it all. That's more important and less easy to achieve than perfect anatomy. Should you have waited until you could drawn a perfect human form before attempting the picture? No way!

jackiesimmonds
01-24-2003, 03:26 AM
thanks, Agnes. Just how I felt. Now I have to wait and see whether the buyers agree!!!

Jackie