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sundiver
12-19-2010, 10:24 AM
Week 2 thread here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=811971)
Week 1 edited thread is in the Hall of Fame thread stickied on the Landscapes Forum main page.
Have a happy Week #3!

Johannes Instructor
12-19-2010, 11:03 AM
Today Sunday December 19 you are all invited to watch a free live painting webcam demo at 2 PM EST. In case you are in another time zone and you don't know what time that is in your area you can refer to this time zone converter:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html

Here is the link for the webcam video:

http://cyberartlearning.com/webcam/webcam1size.html


It is only one click away. You do not need to install software.

Also if you wish to chat with fellow artists that will be watching all you need to do is create a username and password to log in. However to watch the video only you do not need to sign in.The subject for the painting will be a waterfall called, " Running Eagles Falls" inspired by a real scene in Glacier National Park.

luvs2paint1
12-19-2010, 12:53 PM
This posted by Susan C, "You gotta move fast. When you start to think too much, the left brain kicks in. Make mental notes to go back. Don't interrupt the flow."
and this posted by Michael "I've been reading Edgar Payne's thoughts on this in recent days. As far as I can recall, he recommends doing all the analytical stuff in between, and to work mainly intuitively when painting. I often think painting is a bit like learning how to play golf. Ideally you should do all the learning on the practice ground and never while playing - otherwise you become too mechanical. Makes good sense to me anyway."

Are so true, and something I have to watch out for. Painting always goes so much better when you are in the flow. MOre proof that thumbnail sketches and design b4 painting is SO important.

I also very happily sent out the two emails. I hope they listen, cause this is good stuff, to say the least.

Colorix
12-19-2010, 02:25 PM
I'm watching, but can't log into the demo, so no chatting. :-(

Can only 30 ppl be logged in at the same time?

winecountry
12-19-2010, 05:55 PM
Demo was a gem...so revealing, it amazes me, I've made every session but one and tho he hits on major concepts again and again, every session also has new tips I've never heard before....really amazing breadth of knowledge here.

Grainne
12-19-2010, 05:58 PM
Tremendous demo today! :clap:

Again what a way to learn!


Grainne

robertsloan2
12-19-2010, 05:59 PM
Happily, Charlie did get into the chat as well as the demo and we all had a great time watching Johannes do a new version of his snow scene "Seeking the Warmth." It's gorgeous and it was wonderful seeing his stages.

I've got eight pages of notes of course, including a new experiment.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Video-Dec-19-1.jpg
Used the big brush pens for that brushwork example. Didn't overlap completely because I wanted the strokes showing to show the pattern. In oils I'd overlap them completely and use a flat brush.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Video-Dec-19-2.jpg
Big Brush again in green and brown.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Video-Dec-19-3.jpg
Hard pastels for the Pinkish Grayish Bush, didn't try to get that in Pitt pens.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Video-Dec-19-4.jpg
Whoops, just a page of text.

LynnM
12-19-2010, 06:02 PM
Thank goodness for Robert! I couldn't make it today at all, so that will certainly help. I've sent my two emails!

robertsloan2
12-19-2010, 06:06 PM
Four more pages of notes including today's Experiment.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Video-Dec-19-5.jpg
Rocks in water is such a fantastic effect and so simple to do. Seeing him do it was wonderful.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Video-Dec-19-6.jpg
My Experiment: sketching trees in gouache badly and then cutting into them with the sky color to give the whole a better shape, then reorganizing the highlights and shadows inside the shape doing both positive and negative with each stroke. It worked, to my happy surprise. Got to do more gouache painting.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Video-Dec-19-7.jpg
Just a pen sketch...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Video-dec-19-8.jpg
And a cartoon at the end since I had space left.

ZanBarrage
12-19-2010, 08:26 PM
The gouache work is AMAZING Robert!!! You have to get into this medium it seems to be your natural medium!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sharon Hazen
12-19-2010, 08:30 PM
Johannes Vloothuis is one of the most generous art instructors with his time and knowledge. One cannot help but feel inspired after one of his classes.

Johannes Instructor
12-19-2010, 08:30 PM
Dear fellow artists,

Tomorrow we will do critiques so please send me photos of paintings at
[email protected]

Esmeralinda
12-19-2010, 08:48 PM
Ohh! Robert, you are such an :angel:
Love your little cartoon !!

Again a big thank you to Johannes ! :clap:

wc3f4o9r1um
12-19-2010, 09:09 PM
Johannes, I sent an email to Jennifer Lepore, but didn't get all of Sarah's last name down. Don't see her email on this site the way that it showed on your computer.

Little Mary
12-19-2010, 09:41 PM
I have found your demos very educational. I am looking forward to the others ones that you will do in new year. I am eager to learn more in a classroom setting. Once again, thank you.:)

sundiver
12-19-2010, 09:49 PM
Johannes, I sent an email to Jennifer Lepore, but didn't get all of Sarah's last name down. Don't see her email on this site the way that it showed on your computer.
You can private-message her through WetCanvas. Her username is sallspaw.
Click on Private Messages in the upper right of this page.
Welcome to WetCanvas!

B4painter
12-19-2010, 10:10 PM
[email protected]
[email protected]


Hello fellow members: Lets keep these fantastic demos coming, email these two people and tell them just how much you appreciate Johannes and his hard work! This is the only way he can continue...he needs our support!:clap:

Johannes Instructor
12-19-2010, 10:28 PM
[email protected]
[email protected]


Hello fellow members: Lets keep these fantastic demos coming, email these two people and tell them just how much you appreciate Johannes and his hard work! This is the only way he can continue...he needs our support!:clap:

The emails to them was not for the demos but for the regular classes that would take place starting January 8th. However if some did not read my post earlier they may not know what you are talking about.

hewill4giveu
12-19-2010, 11:28 PM
He did make movie clips on the same sight you went to today incase you didnt get the video.

Chrisp47
12-20-2010, 12:20 AM
Fantastic stuff again today, Johannes.
I sent my two emails as well.
I sincerely hope we can continue in the New Year.

skappy
12-20-2010, 02:57 AM
Hi thanks Johannes for the demo too bad I had a connection problem I never saw the end
Robert

robertsloan2
12-20-2010, 04:04 AM
Johannes, thank you for that wonderful demo. There's so much about actually handling paint that's easier to see in a video. The classes all week leading up to the demo help me to understand it, so when I'm watching you paint a lot of times I look at how you hold the brush and the thickness of the paint, how you apply it, how the physical process works for oil painting.

The way you paint, I might be able to handle it come spring when my arthritis lightens up. I might even try a small one up in my room if I get a really good day. I've got new oils coming tomorrow with your palette. I think of it as the muted palette while my original more chromatic Mayfair Box assortment is the colourist palette. Paintings would come out very different using one or the other.

Zan, thank you for your compliment on my gouache vignette. I think gouache works quite a bit like oils in miniature even if it dries very fast, it mixes like oils. I didn't even use my artist grade ones, got out the Art Advantage set that gakinme sent me in a swap and tried them for the heck of it because I had to see whether it'd work cutting in around trees that had a bad shape. I deliberately overworked the trees and let them get nasty before putting in the sky, then reshaped them with a few added highlights and shadows.

Johannes is right. I've been looking at abstract shapes more and seeing them in everything. One thing I've noticed might become an indicator that abstract shapes and irregular intervals happen.

If I start seeing random faces, camels, various things in the shapes, the kind of fleeting imaginary images you see looking at clouds, then the shapes of the area turn out to be abstract: not geometrically regular or symmetrical. Especially distorted, cartoonish faces with huge jutting noses or brows or chins. It's a right-brain, imagination process like the spinning girl, but when shapes are genuinely abstract that's when it happens.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this yet. I've been seeing goblins and dancing figures and nudes and animals all through Clyde Aspevig's shapes and Johannes's paintings. When I see that in my own and filter through the "is it abstract?" checklist, it's come out abstract every time.

Perhaps it's that more regular shapes and cloning and symmetry break up the chance to see random imaginary things in shapes. Maybe that only happens if something is truly abstract and irregular.

Very often the same part of a line will become a different face or imaginary subject depending on how I look at it. I'll see the figure of a Tim Burton-like fat wizard, the face of a hook-nosed goblin or a camel's head, all in the same irregular line. The same projection becomes the camel face, the goblin's nose or the hat brim on the wizard.

I don't think it's that I'm painting faces into trees or that Clyde Aspevig or Johannes do. I think it's more that if it's really abstract, your right brain will start finding funny things like in clouds and ceiling cracks.

jbercx
12-20-2010, 06:42 AM
Robert, I fully agree with youre statement. Johannes gives us a drive and a honest way to look into stuff, to learn and to see art on a different way. A way that learns us to be a better painter.

Also, thank you again for dropping the notes on the forum. It is appreciated!

marionh
12-20-2010, 07:22 AM
Ditto.

sundiver
12-20-2010, 07:27 AM
Johannes is right. I've been looking at abstract shapes more and seeing them in everything. One thing I've noticed might become an indicator that abstract shapes and irregular intervals happen.

If I start seeing random faces, camels, various things in the shapes, the kind of fleeting imaginary images you see looking at clouds, then the shapes of the area turn out to be abstract: not geometrically regular or symmetrical. Especially distorted, cartoonish faces with huge jutting noses or brows or chins. It's a right-brain, imagination process like the spinning girl, but when shapes are genuinely abstract that's when it happens.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this yet. I've been seeing goblins and dancing figures and nudes and animals all through Clyde Aspevig's shapes and Johannes's paintings. When I see that in my own and filter through the "is it abstract?" checklist, it's come out abstract every time.

Perhaps it's that more regular shapes and cloning and symmetry break up the chance to see random imaginary things in shapes. Maybe that only happens if something is truly abstract and irregular.

Very often the same part of a line will become a different face or imaginary subject depending on how I look at it. I'll see the figure of a Tim Burton-like fat wizard, the face of a hook-nosed goblin or a camel's head, all in the same irregular line. The same projection becomes the camel face, the goblin's nose or the hat brim on the wizard.

I don't think it's that I'm painting faces into trees or that Clyde Aspevig or Johannes do. I think it's more that if it's really abstract, your right brain will start finding funny things like in clouds and ceiling cracks.

I think it's the left brain that sees clowns, etc. Right brain sees abstract shape, left brain attempts to label it something representational. But, if it works for you it works! I just finished teaching that to my eighth-graders, and one exercise involved drawing the Mona Lisa (a line version) upside down . Left brain can't cope because the picture is upside down, so right brain takes over and does the job. I learned that back in the 70's but it's explained very well in Betty Edwards' book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.

Now I'm going to be looking for goblins in your paintings, Robert!:D

Esmeralinda
12-20-2010, 09:59 AM
That book of Betty Edwards is what started me to draw and eventually paint :clap:

Johannes Instructor
12-20-2010, 10:10 AM
Robert there is no way we think about animal or things when we create these
abstract shapes. If some end up looking like that it would be a fluke. Here again is the best definition I can give to the term abstract shapes. Maybe this term can be confusing since people might think we are literally referring to abstract shapes like in abstract art.
Maybe it should be called, "Non symetrical designed shapes"
These would end up being:
a) Non symetrical
b) None repetitive on both sides
c) None repetitve in concave and convex protrusions
d) Somewhat angular and not to too roundish in areas
e) The contour ends up being melodic

When we are painting we will convert all areas in our mind as puzzle pieces and redesign them somewhat similar to what we see but more appealling

ScottCooper
12-20-2010, 10:16 AM
Johanne's demo was an inspiring way to spend a Sunday afternoon; great to watch a painting develop in this format. The biggest problem right now seems to be finding a balance between sitting down for the webinars and finding painting time. I think I'm going to do a little rearranging of my studio space to set up my laptop and be able to work a bit at the same time. Thanks for your generosity Johanne.

wcjan
12-20-2010, 10:26 AM
Was yesterday's demo recorded? Unfortunately, I was not available during the broadcast time, so I'm wondering if there is a link to a recorded version.

-Jan

Tattau
12-20-2010, 10:54 AM
If I start seeing random faces, camels, various things in the shapes, the kind of fleeting imaginary images you see looking at clouds, then the shapes of the area turn out to be abstract: not geometrically regular or symmetrical. Especially distorted, cartoonish faces with huge jutting noses or brows or chins. It's a right-brain, imagination process like the spinning girl, but when shapes are genuinely abstract that's when it happens.
...
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this yet. I've been seeing goblins and dancing figures and nudes and animals all through Clyde Aspevig's shapes and Johannes's paintings. When I see that in my own and filter through the "is it abstract?" checklist, it's come out abstract every time.
...
Very often the same part of a line will become a different face or imaginary subject depending on how I look at it. I'll see the figure of a Tim Burton-like fat wizard, the face of a hook-nosed goblin or a camel's head, all in the same irregular line. The same projection becomes the camel face, the goblin's nose or the hat brim on the wizard.
...
I don't think it's that I'm painting faces into trees or that Clyde Aspevig or Johannes do. I think it's more that if it's really abstract, your right brain will start finding funny things like in clouds and ceiling cracks.

“I cannot forbear to mention… a new device for study which, although it may seem trivial and almost ludicrous, is nevertheless extremely useful in arousing the mind to various inventions… when you look at a wall with stains… you may discover a resemblance to various landscapes, beautiful with mountains, rivers, rocks, trees… or again you may see figures in action, or strange faces and costumes, an endless variety of objects which you could reduce to complete and well-drawn forms.”

Leonardo da Vinci, Notebooks

susanc
12-20-2010, 11:46 AM
This posted by Susan C, "You gotta move fast. When you start to think too much, the left brain kicks in. Make mental notes to go back. Don't interrupt the flow."

I wrote those notes down as best as I could, word for word, straight from Johannes.

Sadly, I get so excited about painting, I just want to dive in and paint. Forget the thumbnails! But when it's all over, I always realize that if I'd taken the time to plan it out more thoroughly, it probably would have had a much greater chance of being better.

I also like how Joe said that these principles are there to help bail you out when you have a painting that you realize is sinking fast. You are in a better position to realize, "Oh, I've got a lot of cloning", or "That area is kind of difficult on the eye". I didn't have that kind of knowledge to rely on before. I went to school in the aftermath of Abstract Expressionism. Realism wasn't very "cool", and neither was teacher interference in the reigning "do your own thing" concept of art. I was so disappointed when Colleen said the Universities are going back to that, but what a gig if you're a professor--you don't have to know anything, and you can even feel a little smug about it! I was looking into getting my MFA recently. If the local university is into "de-skilling", there's no way I'll sink any money into that! (Especially since I was just a bit reluctant about the $35,000 price tag already.)

As luvs2paint1 mentioned, Johannes' principles are there first off to help in the planning stage with the thumbnails. They are also there to save us if we realize we're going down for the count and about to throw in the towel. But during the actual painting process, you want to be as right-brain as you can get...Is that partly why you paint so fast, Johannes?

JimS
12-20-2010, 11:56 AM
Leonardo Da Vinci...

Wasn't he that bloke in the film 'Titanic'?

robertsloan2
12-20-2010, 12:05 PM
“I cannot forbear to mention… a new device for study which, although it may seem trivial and almost ludicrous, is nevertheless extremely useful in arousing the mind to various inventions… when you look at a wall with stains… you may discover a resemblance to various landscapes, beautiful with mountains, rivers, rocks, trees… or again you may see figures in action, or strange faces and costumes, an endless variety of objects which you could reduce to complete and well-drawn forms.”

Leonardo da Vinci, Notebooks

Thank you - that's exactly the phenomenon I was talking about. What I realized last night is that it only happens with abstract shapes.

If a shape is a pizza pie or meatball or something like that, it won't create that effect. It's only the genuinely random that sets off that daydream. Marion, I think you're right that it's the left brain making up something to fill the void, trying to find patterns where none exist.

Johannes, thank you for the definitions! I copied that post off into a file of its own because it's so important. I'm curious about why the angularity is so important in these shapes and melodic lines, when curves turn up in so many beautiful paintings. I like art nouveau paintings and those often feature graceful curves that aren't symmetrical.

I can see how the angularity in an oil painting done with a flat brush tends to support a painterly look. It demands changing direction with the brush or lifting the brush and moving it rather than a continuous squiggly brush stroke. What I'm curious about is whether you'd apply that as a guideline in all mediums and styles.

marionh
12-20-2010, 12:27 PM
Marion, I think you're right that it's the left brain making up something to fill the void, trying to find patterns where none exist.

That wasn't me Robert. But I don't mind taking the cred:lol:
I think it was Susan.

susanc
12-20-2010, 12:35 PM
That wasn't me Robert. But I don't mind taking the cred:lol:
I think it was Susan.

Love you, Marion! She is actually attributing brilliant things to me!

Hopefully, it will be me one day...I just post a lot so it seems like I could have said almost anything. But sadly, I can't claim responsibility, either.

Today's probably my last day because of everything going on this week. I'll really miss everyone--and especially Marion! ;) Oh, and luvstopaint1. She gave me a nice credit in this week's thread, too.

susanc
12-20-2010, 01:33 PM
Leonardo Da Vinci...

Wasn't he that bloke in the film 'Titanic'?

Sorry, Jim. Close, but no cigar! He was actually a turtle super-hero character in the late eighties, early nineties. ;)

Anyone living in SoCal should not miss this one:
Santa Barbara Historical Museum (http://www.santabarbaramuseum.com/)
America's Grandeur: Landscapes of Clyde Aspevig (http://www.santabarbaramuseum.com/Current_Exhibition.html)
It ends Feb 7, 2011

I was bummed to see he actually gave a live painting demo there when the show opened and I missed it! Oh well. I probably would have just watched him push the paint around, missed how he held his brush, etc...

winecountry
12-20-2010, 01:34 PM
I don't think it's that I'm painting faces into trees or that Clyde Aspevig or Johannes do. I think it's more that if it's really abstract, your right brain will start finding funny things like in clouds and ceiling cracks.


More likely its the screaming left brain that simply must have it be something Sometimes ( due to earlier training) I think in terms of movement of color or value,...if you note when moving or dancing you don't have to have it be or mean any particular thing...watching Dawn Emerson's video and how she draw and paints is to literally dance the lines on.

robertsloan2
12-20-2010, 01:47 PM
Yeah. It is actually the left brain, whoever first said that to me. But it only seems to happen with abstract shapes, not meatballs or anything else.

I have no idea if this is the worst thing I've ever painted or if it worked. The photo shows the sky as much darker than it is in the actual painting, the real value of the sky is about the same as the yellow accents in the grass. I should knock the grass accents down to 4 from 3 but otherwise... well... it's what it is.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Autumn-Ramble-2.jpg
Autumn Ramble (scan)
Value of sky is more or less accurate in the scan.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Autumn-Ramble-Photo-stage-2.jpg
Autumn Ramble (photo)
8 1/2" x 11"
Unison soft pastels on brown Colourfix sanded pastel paper
Photo reference by Paula Ford for December Landscape Challenge.

I might have learned something from this even if it's a total botch.

jbercx
12-20-2010, 02:21 PM
Robert,I am not an expert, but I like it, fresh colors, nice soft mountains at the background to give it dept. It is certanly not the worst.

winecountry
12-20-2010, 02:31 PM
it has lots of energy and direct application, and also 8 and 9 values....with the result that gives:wink2:

JTMB
12-20-2010, 03:00 PM
Lots of stimulating (and entertaining!) discussion here. As to Leonardo, I think it could be argued that he was very heavily left brained in terms of his work. His right brain no doubt got involved in generating some of the conceptual ideas, but he was, to me anyway, much more about figuring out how things actually worked and then utilizing that knowledge in inventions as well as art. Certainly his figure work was heavily based on scientific study - including highly illegal activities such as corpse dissection - and almost a mathematical approach in many respects. Since he was very poor at actually finishing things he started, however, I guess that might argue for the right brain jumping in there often as well. :)

Dharma_bum
12-20-2010, 03:14 PM
Johannes---Thanks for the demo yesterday, though I had to pull out early to go to work. Will you please post a high res pic of the finished painting from yesterdays demo, as well as same from the second demo painting from last week? Thanks.

Dan

Davkin
12-20-2010, 03:43 PM
Yeah. It is actually the left brain, whoever first said that to me. But it only seems to happen with abstract shapes, not meatballs or anything else.

I have no idea if this is the worst thing I've ever painted or if it worked. The photo shows the sky as much darker than it is in the actual painting, the real value of the sky is about the same as the yellow accents in the grass. I should knock the grass accents down to 4 from 3 but otherwise... well... it's what it is.


Autumn Ramble (scan)
Value of sky is more or less accurate in the scan.


Autumn Ramble (photo)
8 1/2" x 11"
Unison soft pastels on brown Colourfix sanded pastel paper
Photo reference by Paula Ford for December Landscape Challenge.

I might have learned something from this even if it's a total botch.

I like the scanned version, it shows the raw strokes more, sometimes pastels get over-blended. I assumed it's more accurate than the photo? The only issue I see possibly is that if you pulled a blanket over the main tree on the right I think it might come out looking a bit too symmetrical. I'd be interested to see it converted to grayscale because I'm wondering if the mountains aren't still a little bit dark in value overall, but I could be wrong.

David

robertsloan2
12-20-2010, 03:50 PM
David, the scan is extreme in the other direction - the sky's lighter in the scan than it is in the painting and the mountains darker than they are in the painting. That's so frustrating. The actual painting looks better than that, it's somewhere between the scan and the photo. If you sort of average everything out, it's true. However, the dark tree does have 8 and 9 values, I did overdo the darks in it. I'd probably redo it differently.

I can see one thing now looking at it - using the dark paper affected how I handled my values, especially on the dark tree. I worked loose and the paper was more like value 8 itself, so in the sketch stage I was doing darks that stood out against the paper. Got to watch the values working on dark paper.

It's odd because usually I don't have that problem working on dark paper. So the main thing on this one is extreme values - a bit too light on the highlighted path in the grass, a bit too dark in the darkest areas. 8 accents are fine but I used 8 values in some fairly big areas there. The highlights do go up to seven but they should fill up more space.

Ah well. I'll get used to this. The point is to practice and keep trying, right? The scan is truer to what the strokes look like except in the sky, it shows them in more detail.

Johannes Instructor
12-20-2010, 04:23 PM
I like the scanned version, it shows the raw strokes more, sometimes pastels get over-blended. I assumed it's more accurate than the photo? The only issue I see possibly is that if you pulled a blanket over the main tree on the right I think it might come out looking a bit too symmetrical. I'd be interested to see it converted to grayscale because I'm wondering if the mountains aren't still a little bit dark in value overall, but I could be wrong.

David
I need to put finishing touches on it. But I can post the painting I used as reference.

Dharma_bum
12-20-2010, 04:34 PM
Johannes, I think you meant to quote me. :D

Thanks for the reference pic, good to see that for comparison. Will keep an eye out for the demo paintings.

Dan

Dharma_bum
12-20-2010, 04:40 PM
Yeah. It is actually the left brain, whoever first said that to me. But it only seems to happen with abstract shapes, not meatballs or anything else.

I have no idea if this is the worst thing I've ever painted or if it worked. The photo shows the sky as much darker than it is in the actual painting, the real value of the sky is about the same as the yellow accents in the grass. I should knock the grass accents down to 4 from 3 but otherwise... well... it's what it is.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Autumn-Ramble-2.jpg
Autumn Ramble (scan)
Value of sky is more or less accurate in the scan.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Autumn-Ramble-Photo-stage-2.jpg
Autumn Ramble (photo)
8 1/2" x 11"
Unison soft pastels on brown Colourfix sanded pastel paper
Photo reference by Paula Ford for December Landscape Challenge.

I might have learned something from this even if it's a total botch.

Robert, like your new pastel, very abstract! Do you have the capacity to do manual exposures on your camera? That's what's throwing off your photos, the camera is averaging everything to a neutral gray in auto exposure mode. If you set it manually, you can get much closer. Don't forget to set the white balance too, that will affect color accuracy. If your camera will do manual settings, I can talk you through the process, easiest by phone. Let me know.

Dan

robertsloan2
12-20-2010, 10:59 PM
I don't know if it can. When I do the changes on this that Johannes suggested, I'll fiddle with the settings and try again. I'm using a Logitech Webcam Pro and it's usually good but not when I try to take photos at night by my Daylight lamp and nothing else. It was also tricky getting set up for it with it on the easel.

I'll definitely try again after I make the fix and see if I can adjust it to get truer colors and sharp resolution. If I can get it to snap the photo while it's on its stand it'll get better focus too.

Here are tonight's notes, the first four anyway. 12 pages tonight! I have been trying to cut down so I only make at most two posts, but tonight I just got overexcited...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-1.jpg

Just got my Blick package today with replacement Pigma Micron pens and a Rotring ArtPen. Very glad too because I'd been using up my last pen and was down to using ball points on notes! So tonight has more pen sketching and less Pitt pen sketching since I was playing with the new pen.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-3.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-4.jpg

robertsloan2
12-20-2010, 11:01 PM
Second batch:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-5.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-6.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-7.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-8.jpg

robertsloan2
12-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Third batch! As always there were some new tips and tricks tonight that he'd never mentioned before, interspersed with new descriptions of familiar material. I think this is helping me understand melodic line and abstract shapes a lot better!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-9.jpg

New object! New tricks!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-10.jpg

Something so many friends have trouble with. Johannes explained it so well!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-11.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-20-12.jpg

Johannes Instructor
12-20-2010, 11:53 PM
Robert it goes like this:
If the eye wanders around in the painting, the mind wanders. When the mind wanders then the viewer day dreams. Day dreaming is good when stimulated by the painting. The viewer romanticizes the scene.
You forgot the "mind wanders" part.

Johannes Instructor
12-21-2010, 12:12 AM
I said, Clyde says, "Once I have the block in I get rid of the photo". I am paraphrazing him. You put in "get rid of the photo when the sketch is done", That would be too early.
Your little highway drawing on the right is a perfect solution to the highway problem.

hewill4giveu
12-21-2010, 12:29 AM
Well rode 12 hours today got in Iowa just in time to catch some of Johannes critics tonight. Learned some more very interesting ideas. I cannot wait to try all of this out. So until i get back home in a couple of weeks i will have to practice finding the abstracts of pics and best way to do them. Watching these webnars is like tasting fine chocolate . Once tasted you have to come back for more. Thank goodness for you Robert and your notes or i would loose out on very vital info. Going down the road im rattling on about art an all the things Johannes taught. My husband just kept saying uhuh , nodding his head politely. I finally said am i boring you . He just broke out laughting. HUM guess thats a yes. Well someone turned a light on in my dark room and now i can see so many things i didn't know was there im loving it.
Could someone tell me where we go from here. Did i understand Your closing your sight down you have now? Johannes will you still teach on Sats? I really want to carry this on after wed. Especailly when i can get some painting done maybe get a critic. I have only done 3 landscapes since starting art a year and half ago. Did a JerryYarnell painting. Looked at them again and wow sooooooo many mistakes.

jbercx
12-21-2010, 12:57 AM
Robert thanks for the notes, had night shift this night, was not able to watch this. Also tonight I have nightshift, so no online class for me again.
Does someone had a 'video capture" of the online class? Would be great it this can be shared/available for download.

Dharma_bum
12-21-2010, 01:19 AM
Well rode 12 hours today got in Iowa just in time to catch some of Johannes critics tonight.

Could someone tell me where we go from here. Did i understand Your closing your sight down you have now? Johannes will you still teach on Sats?

Critques yes, critics, no. :D

Everything is up in the air at this point, depending on the results of the deliberations with F+W.

Dan

robertsloan2
12-21-2010, 01:34 AM
Robert it goes like this:
If the eye wanders around in the painting, the mind wanders. When the mind wanders then the viewer day dreams. Day dreaming is good when stimulated by the painting. The viewer romanticizes the scene.
You forgot the "mind wanders" part.

Thank you! I'm doing a page of corrections that I'll post with tomorrow's notes so that these corrections get into the Facebook pages and the other threads I post them too.

It's true too. Shortly after I scanned my notes, I wandered onto Facebook and saw a new painting by Paula Ford. Immediately I was drawn into it and remembered a day at an arboretum with a girl I was in love with and afraid to speak up to in high school, when she put flowers in her hair. It moved me tremendously, made me wish I was there with a barefoot woman putting flowers in her hair. (Now that I'm old and secure enough to notice it and believe it if she's flirting!)

She intended that romantic feeling and she had wonderful massed flowers and musical lines, all influenced by your class. I kept looking around through that very simple scene and it didn't need her to paint a beautiful woman in jeans or flowing cotton dress - my past loves and my daydreams all peopled the meadow.

robertsloan2
12-21-2010, 01:36 AM
I said, Clyde says, "Once I have the block in I get rid of the photo". I am paraphrazing him. You put in "get rid of the photo when the sketch is done", That would be too early.
Your little highway drawing on the right is a perfect solution to the highway problem.

Thank you! As I was posting today's painting on Facebook, I glanced at the other images I have in my 2010 art album. I laughed out loud, some of them were so ghastly - paintings that only months ago I was extremely proud of as the best I've ever done. Thank you for the growth spurt!

That's a heady, dizzying, wonderful feeling to look back on last year's perfect best and see all its problems, knowing I could do better if I picked it up and did it now.

jbercx
12-21-2010, 02:01 AM
Is there a place on internet/website, where I can find more information and examples regarding the so oft mentioned value steps 1-9? I have misssed that part of the webseminars but it is very importants. Ones I have these examples, I can make my own value reference cards

Thanks for the input

Ruthie57
12-21-2010, 04:24 AM
Still couldn't stay up for the whole webinar last night but I feel it was really really useful and informative. Great notes again Robert.
Having seen the first critiques I tried to get Johannes to ignore my submission. I was squirming at it's amateurish look compared with the first ones.
However, it was a great critique. Johannes' obviously can tell my experience level from my painting (Giverny) but he's not in the business of ripping paintings to shreds, which he could have done with this one.
This is a great skill...being able to pitch the critique to the ability of the artist, pushing those who are already very good to get better and encouraging those who are nearer the start of their journey but not giving so much information that it confuses and dampens the drive to get better.
I think I'm in love....lol!

JimS
12-21-2010, 04:43 AM
Hi jbercx,

Have a look on Google for 'Value Scale' (without the quotes).

You will find a lot of results including scales that you can print off..

Hope that helps

Jim

Dharma_bum
12-21-2010, 04:54 AM
Is there a place on internet/website, where I can find more information and examples regarding the so oft mentioned value steps 1-9? I have misssed that part of the webseminars but it is very importants. Ones I have these examples, I can make my own value reference cards

Thanks for the input

Everything you wanted to know about value and more. Scroll down about a third of the page, you will find two value scales placed horizontally, one 9 values and one 11 values. Johannes uses the 9 value scale. There is a place to click to see it against a gray background, which is probably the most helpful way to look at it. The numbers are reversed for this one, black is one, white is nine, so just remember to reverse the order.

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color11.html

Dan

jbercx
12-21-2010, 05:00 AM
Thank you Dan!

marionh
12-21-2010, 05:59 AM
Thank you again Robert for your notes. I caught the first few critiques but that was it for me, before the land of nod called.

Does anyone know when do these webinars finish?

appydax
12-21-2010, 06:48 AM
Thank you from me too Dan :thumbsup:

Marion, I think we have just today and tomorrow left. :(

Sharron

Judibelle
12-21-2010, 07:57 AM
Robert...I got in late last evening and unfortuntely missed your critique and Charlie's...darn! Your notes are super...thanks so much!

So much good stuff to learn and remember! Thank you, Johannes, for your time, energy, 'nuggets', and overall information. I have learned a lot, now have to remember to apply it..
Judi

pezk
12-21-2010, 08:30 AM
thanks Robert for the wonderful notes. I always have to leave before the end.
Johannes, would you consider giving a lecture aimed at beginners to landscape painting? there is so much info in these lectures that it becomes overwhelming for a newbie. thx for all your hard work.
patk

Johannes Instructor
12-21-2010, 08:37 AM
Is there a place on internet/website, where I can find more information and examples regarding the so oft mentioned value steps 1-9? I have misssed that part of the webseminars but it is very importants. Ones I have these examples, I can make my own value reference cards

Thanks for the input

Professional artists constantly think what color they are putting on in grades of grays referred to as values. Many of them are more concerned to get the value right more than the color. What works for me is that based on a 10 value scale I try to work as much as I can in the mid value range where most of the colors show up nicely. Once you get too light or too dark the colors do not show easily. Considering white to be number 1 and black to be number 10, this is what I do. If the painting is not about a waterfall, clouds, snow or a white building I discard number 1 from the value scale. That leaves values 2 to 10. Obviously we dont use absolute black nor its value in any other color so I discard that one too. Now we have 8 values
2 to 9. Now, value 9 is too dark and creates the feeling of a gap in the painting so I discard that one too. Now I am left with values 2 to 8. Ok so now I need a value that I will reserve for accents to create the indentations that will result into a 3D effect. So now we are left with values 2 to 7 which are 6 values, all from light gray to dark gray. Because I do mass planning which means to group as many individual shapes into one whole value pattern and there are 6 gray values left I divide those into 3 so I end up with 3 value masses
Light mid - values 2 and 3
Mid - values 4 and 5
Mid dark values 6 and 7

I hope this is clear if not I can always go to Switzerland and make it clearer to you. :o) LOL!

marionh
12-21-2010, 08:42 AM
Or the South of France, Johannes:lol: :lol:

marionh
12-21-2010, 08:45 AM
Thank you from me too Dan :thumbsup:

Marion, I think we have just today and tomorrow left. :(

Sharron

thanks Sharron.
I will probably miss tomorrow's one. I will try to catch tonights one but may have to have an early night. I'm travelling to the UK tomorrow, and if last year is anything to go by, a short plane ride turns into and all day and nearly all night due to the weather.

JimS
12-21-2010, 09:12 AM
Johannes,

Any possibility of posting your 'Pointers for waterfalls' in here?

I find them really useful as an 'aide memoire'.

Thanks

Jim

Johannes Instructor
12-21-2010, 09:13 AM
Or the South of France, Johannes:lol: :lol:

Hey, I will travel anywhere if sponsored!

JimS
12-21-2010, 09:15 AM
Hey, I will travel anywhere if sponsored!

OK, who's up for a weeks' course in the UK, next year? :)

I'm happy to do all the organising, venue, accomodation, bookings, etc

:)

Johannes Instructor
12-21-2010, 09:38 AM
[
Quick Pointers for placing and depicting waterfalls

1. Make sure none of the running lines coincide with centre point.
2. Just like with portraits, check to make sure none the distances from the waterfall to the edge of the canvas have the same length.
3. Soften many of the edges to show water movement. Don’t trust photos for reference if they have still water frozen in a split second because of camera mili second aperture.

Create a blurred motion especially if the water running against the rocks. Paint the way the eye sees. Adding quite a bit of mist to the falling water where it meets rocks brings relief to the eye and even conveys more water motion.
4. Don’t paint with too much white. Limit your whites, rather use blue grays as the main colour for water foam. Then reflect all surroundings reflected colors. Think of your waterfall like a staircase with a fire truck hose running over it.
5. Cropping to zoom into the waterfall is usually the best policy.
6. Compare both sides of the fall and make sure they are not mirrored.
7. Placing rocks within the fall area helps show water thinness and more interest. Think of a bridal gown, You can partially thru the veil.
8. Think of a curtain. Create indentations to show dimension.
9. Avoid a curtain look by water falling vertically in a straight line.
10. Reflect surrounding colors in the blue areas of the water.
11. Make sure your waterfall does not have the same width as height. That would imply it is a square
12. Use tools such as sand paper or pastels to show sparkles for watercolour. Heavy impasto should be used for oils.
13. Reflect the waterfall in the water below.
14. Try to connect the whites of the foaming water to anchor them to the frame and enable eye flow.
15. Create a roller coaster linear movement. The “S” shape is usually the answer.
16. Most waterfalls because they are vertical will be more pleasing if painted on a vertical canvas, likewise with horizontal ones.
17. Try to depict the top of the waterfall of the river so it doesn’t look like it falls from nowhere. This also creates eye flow.
18. The “white” highlights of your waterfalls should have variances of oranges, yellows, and pinks (the latter appears if used elsewhere in the painting). NEVER USE WHITE OUT OF THE TUBE. Make sure you don’t add too little warm colours to your whites or too much. The warm colours should be barely noticeable. This also applies to white flowers, white walls and snow as well.
19. Place mist at the bottom of the waterfall to create a soft look. Optional especially for tall waterfalls with lots of thrust.
20. I most cases rocks around waterfalls are pretty much a dull sidewalk gray color. If we paint them this way they make look "real" (I'd still like to see a 1 inch rock in a painting look real. It would look like driveway gravel though.) but would look dull. So what I do is shift the hues to pink or orange rocks or a combination of both.

Johannes Instructor
12-21-2010, 09:39 AM
OK, who's up for a weeks' course in the UK, next year? :)

I'm happy to do all the organising, venue, accomodation, bookings, etc

:)
I love adventures and have travelled several places in North America to give workshops.

marionh
12-21-2010, 09:43 AM
OK, who's up for a weeks' course in the UK, next year? :)

I'm happy to do all the organising, venue, accomodation, bookings, etc

:)

Good in principle Jim.:thumbsup:

Esmeralinda
12-21-2010, 09:50 AM
I can't make it tonight :(

Thank you Robert for the precious notes !

Colorix
12-21-2010, 09:52 AM
Jim, Johannes, UK workshop sounds lovely, I'd love to! Now, it *rains* in England, though... so if we're going Plein Air...? If no PA, then by all means! I've been to Cotswolds, adorable! Or, it is said Northumberland has a very special beautiful light. Or, one of the canal islands? Or... endless possibilities!

lonelm
12-21-2010, 09:56 AM
Thank you Johannes for your generosity in sharing your vast knowledge. I joined this adventure late but am so very glad I did. In my limited exposure I have learned so very much and in a way that helps it stick. I love that you reiterate points helping them sink in. You are hitting all of the adult learning concepts and making it fun to learn. I buy tons of books but learn best using my visual senses so this is perfection for me.

Thank you Robert for pointing me in this direction and for your wonderful notes. They are helping me catch up and again in that visual way that I need. I look forward to a January class, if it goes, and I have sent my emails.

I would be happy if Johannes ran a workshop here because I am not that very far and an Ontario adventure would be great as well.

Good luck Johannes on getting your cyberlearning off the ground. Great concept and I think we all are loving the content. Fingers crossed that January classes happen.

JimS
12-21-2010, 09:57 AM
Johannes,

Thank you for the pointers kind sir :)

susanc
12-21-2010, 10:05 AM
About a week before all this started with Joe, I was surprised to be hit in the face twice (by a dvd and by a book) with a concept my teachers never mentioned--working the values in masses! (Maybe they did mention it, but I didn't understand them so it never sunk in.) I've always thought of each item as an individual piece, with its own individual light, dark, core, etc.--kind of like the painting equivalent of creating Frankenstein! (Or maybe to be kinder, almost a "paint by number" approach.) I never thought to work in painterly masses, like Johannes is teaching. Once I can finally change this old mindset, I think it will be a major leap toward what I've always hoped to accomplish.

A saying popped into my head early this morning about the laborer being worthy of his hire. I don't know how everything is going to turn out for Johannes, but I do know he is the best teacher I've ever had. Poor guy, won't be able to get rid of me! He is well-worth compensating so I'm keeping tabs on his whereabouts and willing to pay whatever it takes. (The price of an art book is more than fair.) I could tell last night he's still got more gold nuggets left yet. Besides that, his style of teaching is so different and valuable because he explains "visually" with photoshop alterations, helping you to understand, I believe, at a faster pace. I wish I'd found him earlier because I'd probably be so much further ahead by now! Thanks, Johannes. It's been eye-opening...and sometimes pretty close to mind-numbing overload! :) You really put your heart, mind and soul into it.

JimS
12-21-2010, 10:16 AM
I hate to break it to you Charlie, but it rains everywhere! :)

Perhaps you are thinking of Ireland or the West coast of Scotland, both of which tend to get more rain than most places in the UK. Oh, and the Lake District of course. That's why it has so many Lakes :)

The Pre-Raphaelites were out doing Plein air, 20 years before it was even called Plein Air, so the weather isn't all that bad.

Depending on the area though, you're right, we would have to be careful of our timing.

There is another factor though, which I have just remembered. Artists who visit the UK and receive remuneration for work done, must now apply for a temporary work visa I believe.

I seem to remember a story in the papers a few months back, about a couple of artists from the continent, who were refused entry to the UK to complete some public works. Even though they were invited by well known art organisations, they were still stopped until they got a certain visa and even though they were from the EU.

I'll have to see if that applies to visitors from the US or Canada.


I'll have to check that out...

susanc
12-21-2010, 11:29 AM
You can always join us in the wonderful world of oil painting! Supposedly, you can plein air paint in rain with oils just fine! :) I'm not sure I'm ready to prove it for myself by going out in the current downpour though! Oh, and yes, I've observed that kind of goofy-looking hats often seem to be a requirement for doing plein air...

Colorix
12-21-2010, 11:31 AM
Jim, I'm in Sweden, and I have it from a trustworthy source that Sweden is every bit as green as Ireland. Guess why it is...

Lake District, there's a place north of it, less known, as beautiful, and less expensive, I've heard.

OK, I thought it would be nice to follow Robert in posting work-development in these threads. (Guess this is the last thread for this round, as the every-day-webinars end soon.) As I'm trying to do most of what Johannes has taught so far, I'm hoping it might give a clue to newcomers too (as far as I've 'gotten' the teachings, mind, I'm no expert).

Reference:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/117343-AK_ref_small_3387.jpg

My own ref, feel free to use it if it interests you.

Then I did a drawing, trying hard to place things well, do melodic lines, and vary things. Pastel pencil on paper (Clairefontaine Pastelmat -- a very 'soft' paper that grabs dust really well.) Faint grid-looking marks are *not* grid, they are guidelines indicating the margin (no-fly zone), the "Union Jack" pattern of halving the surface vertically, horizontally, and diagonally (like a + and an x), which are where I avoid placing important edges, and of course for finding dead center, wich should not have anything important in it (unless it is an artistic decision to do that). Next I marked the tic-tac-toe ( # ) lines, to find the intersecting 'sweet spots' for the focal area. Johannes taught us that the upper right is the best spot, which is where I placed the orange deciduous tree. Different colours of drawing indicates only where I moved things, using another pencil for my own clairty.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/117343-AK-Drawing-3387.jpg

Then I blocked in the major masses. Johannes does that with oils and an earth colour (burnt Sienna?), wich he also uses for his drawing. The picture below is in greyscale (in order to not confuse you with the colours I use for the underpainting), and as I paint in pastels (where we usually put light over dark) the pic also shows how I have started to indicate where the darker bits are to go, but each major mass started as a solid value, including the group of trees. My starting values are 2-3 for sky, 4-5 for flat land and water, and 6 to 7 for trees, with only three basic masses, as Johannes taught us. (The path is lighter, but added on top of a solid 4 to 5 value. The lines for it was visible through the first block in, as was the differentiating of trees.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/117343-AK-st-2-bw-warnings.jpg

Oh, you who look up value scales, take note that they're sometimes numbered the other way around, and the number of steps may vary too. Mine is numbered 1-10, with 1 as black. Johannes's scale is numbered the other way, with 1 as white.

I saw I'd made two errors in the drawing (should have checked that before blocking in masses). Left hand intervals are nearly the same, have to change that, can't have equal amount of sky, water, and foreground. Remember, everything has to be unequal. Checking the right side, I found another near same measurements, so that has to be changed too. Then I have to watch out for that triangle in the middle, which I solved with streaks of windy water sweeping in, and the bottom part by reeds sticking up into it.

I struggled with the concepts of "melodic line" (harmonic, uneven and unequal, not curvy or jagged). With that large foreground, there had to be some things happening. The even-edged gravelled path (not road, path) got an irregular s-shape already in the drawing, but later I changed it a bit by curving the more straightish part. I lowered the left foreground shoreline, but at the very end of the painting that space felt in need of something, so the reeds at left edge got taller -- but, important -- as they are in the margin (the no-fly zone), it got low contrast and diffused edges.

Finished painting, pastel, size 12x16" (30x40 cm). Apologies for the blurry quality, and colours are off, but up here by the 60th latitude, we have no daylight to speak of at this time of the year, so night-time shots in artificial light it is, no other choice.

Bright version:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/117343-Herczfeld_Autumn_Kissed_72.jpg

Duller version, it is probably somewhere inbetween, and slightly bluer:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/117343-Autumn_Kissed_pale_Herczfeld.jpg

Oh, and if anyone took a screenshot or snipping of Johannes's critique of it, I'd be very happy if you could send it to me, I was so focused on what he said I forgot to take the image. He worked on the treetops, and I agree completely (best to agree with teacher, eh? ;-)... seriously, I do, as I knew yesterday's class was critique class, and I had to rush to get the image to the crit, so trees are not entirely finished.

Why I post this? I learn by trying to explain (listen-do-tell method of learning) and by trying to remember what Johannes teaches. And I hope it can be of help. Mostly, I hope that others will show *their* process too!

Charlie

LynnM
12-21-2010, 11:36 AM
Another interesting evening, I am impressed, too, with all the good artists involved here, what a great community it is!

Johannes was mentioning Paint as a handy tool for working up a image for painting, well it has other uses too! We were talking about screen capture a while ago. If you have a PC, it is simple (and free!), just hit Print Screen on your keyboard (upper right corner) which puts the image into the clip board. Then paste it into a graphics program (not Photo Shop, at least not Elements) like Paint in your Accessories menu from Start/All Programs, and you can save it as a JPEG. Maybe everyone knows about this, but I just found it out by doing a search for a free program.

We crossposted, Charlie, super presentation of your analysis, thanks for that! and lovely painting :)

JTMB
12-21-2010, 11:51 AM
Just wanted to chime in here and add more compliments to Johannes (and the participants) for making this such an incredible learning experience. I stumbled onto the original thread that preceded the online instruction and haven't missed a session yet (did have to leave slightly early a couple times for holiday 'honey-do' stuff). It has been a remarkable learning experience and particularly valuable to me as someone who was completely new to art (beyond laughable Pictionary attempts) just over two years ago. Even though I'm new, however, I'm in Johannes' 'sweet spot' for student demographics - lifelong interest in learning and, yes, borderline clinically obsessive about passionate interests :o :lol: of which art is going to be one that is the major focus of the rest of my life.

What amazes me about the amount of learning that I've gained is that since starting art I've done a ton of learning via other methods, and yet in just the few sessions Johannes has done, I feel like I've at least doubled my knowledge! I'm halfway finished with an associate in fine arts degree, have taken a number of workshops with nationally known as well as regional artists, devoured a ton of books and done a bunch of drawing and painting (although only about 30 oil paintings - the rest in other media) - and have done well enough to sell several pieces and get paintings in three juried shows this past summer. Yet, like Robert, I look at my older work now and wonder if I should just throw everything out and hit the reset button (just kidding, sort of :) ). That, coupled with my limited oil painting experience, is why I haven't thrown anything in the mix for critique yet, but I have been racing for the pochade box after the last couple of sessions, so the learning is being applied to the canvas.

Johannes - I hope you can work out something to keep this process going, as there clearly is a unique market there. As in your critique yesterday, you mentioned the issue of not doing business as usual, but doing business unusually - and I think you hit the nail on the head. I've been through three high tech ground-floor startup companies in my career (two out of the three were quite successful) and the one which was an absolute runaway success had difficulty in the early days attracting investor interest because of the uniqueness of the idea. After all our earlier struggles getting things going and the product became a major success, we had people beating down the door wanting to buy stock. Hopefully your passion for the idea and the students' passion for the instruction will result in something workable for the long run.

:clap: :clap:

RainySea
12-21-2010, 12:35 PM
Hello. . . I have been looking through threads for over a week now and just cannot find a link to how to get to the seminars. Have seen Robert's great notes and have searched for it but no luck. I am sorry for being so lame but was looking in pastel forum first and then was directed here to landscape forum but just not finding a link scrolling through threads. It sounds like a really awesome seminar!

Jerry Bridgers
12-21-2010, 12:41 PM
Thank you for the copy of waterfall tips.

Jerry Bridgers
12-21-2010, 12:46 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/74643-layers.jpg

This is a layering of the design-from-photo demonstration. I added some notes, but not all. It may be of interest to someone

robertsloan2
12-21-2010, 12:51 PM
Charlie, thanks for posting your photo reference and stages. I'm smiling about the color - the first time I ran into blocking in masses was in your still life class.

I remember one of the things Johannes stressed with your painting was that you could add a few hard edges here and there in the trees - especially in the focal area. Turning soft edges into hit and miss edges. I need to do the same thing to mine too.

Johannes Instructor
12-21-2010, 01:02 PM
Hello. . . I have been looking through threads for over a week now and just cannot find a link to how to get to the seminars. Have seen Robert's great notes and have searched for it but no luck. I am sorry for being so lame but was looking in pastel forum first and then was directed here to landscape forum but just not finding a link scrolling through threads. It sounds like a really awesome seminar!

Here is the access to the last 2 webinars left:
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/186041342

appydax
12-21-2010, 01:37 PM
Oh, and if anyone took a screenshot or snipping of Johannes's critique of it, I'd be very happy if you could send it to me, I was so focused on what he said I forgot to take the image.
Charlie

I sent you an email Charlie.

Sharron

RainySea
12-21-2010, 01:37 PM
Thanks!!! Its 2pm my time. . . will try to sneak in at work.

appydax
12-21-2010, 01:48 PM
I live in the north-east part of England and I have been listing places which are an artists haven all within 20 mins to a couple of hours of where I live.
I really must get out more :lol:

Alnwick castle....Harry Potter fame.
Northumberland countryside and Hadrian's wall.
Beautiful coastland and even Holy Island with a causeway to cross.
Yorkshire moors.
York city with it's cobbled streets.
Robin Hoods Bay, Staithes, Whitby.....picturesque fishing villages.
Durham.....castle and cathedral.

Loads more all well within a couple of hours.

Sharron

JimS
12-21-2010, 02:00 PM
Oh no, this isn't going to turn into a "My County's prettier than yours" thread is it? :)

flowergram
12-21-2010, 02:05 PM
I have to add my thank you to this thread, to Johannes, of course, and Robert, but also to each and every one who has participated, making this whole experience a "happening"! When I found the posting in wet canvas (big thanks to Christine, also) I had just spent the whole day trying to figure out how I was going to get the help I know I desperatly need. I have gone the whole route:

college courses: flop around on your own, hardly any instruction, the most I learned was to stretch my own canvas.

workshops: mostly from known artists who really aren't interested in helping unless you are at a fairly skilled level. (there was one exception, she said I had good ideas, I just needed to learn the basics, but she no longer offers workshops).

books: loads...

I have even tried to figure out how to go to the Art Students League in NYC.

When I started watching, I couldn't believe it! If this is not able to continue, I'll just cry (and I don't).

I haven't been able to paint, I've been working until 6:00, coming home and glueing myself to the computer, hubby hasn't had a meal in 2 weeeks (cereal is a great option, if it needs to be a hot meal, oatmeal works) but I'm done Thursday, hoping for classes this winter...

Hoping to be helpfull: one of the things I did (and still do) to help learn values is to take a picture of my mixed paints on my palate and convert it to greyscale. If you have a value scale, place it beside the piles for comparison in case there is a discrepancy in the photo. I forget where I learned that but it works beautifully. Went through a lot of paint in the begining, but if it's wrong, ditch it!

winecountry
12-21-2010, 02:12 PM
Thanks for posting this and welcome Jerry, I didn't get a shot myself of this, and I'm so glad you did, as I'm currently struggling along with this painting, and tho I have some of it, there are things here I needed to see.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/74643-layers.jpg

This is a layering of the design-from-photo demonstration. I added some notes, but not all. It may be of interest to someone

jbercx
12-21-2010, 02:20 PM
I hope this is clear if not I can always go to Switzerland and make it clearer to you. :o) LOL!

You are more then welcome Johannes, I presume I will get some private lessons during you stay in Switzerland?

ScottCooper
12-21-2010, 02:20 PM
Another option for simplifying shapes/value masses is to lay a piece of tracing paper or layout paper over your hard copy of a photo. All the detail disappears and the relative values become much more obvious. Then you can use chisel tipped gray markers to lay out your value masses. (20%, 50% and 80% would be a reasonable range) If you don't normally do a thumbnail this is a good way to simplify down to 5 or 6 or so shapes.

jbercx
12-21-2010, 02:22 PM
OK, who's up for a weeks' course in the UK, next year? :)

I'm happy to do all the organising, venue, accomodation, bookings, etc

:)

Johannes On Tour in Europe. I will help you with sponsoring etc.

susanc
12-21-2010, 02:23 PM
I've always wanted to go to Herefordshire since some of my closest immigrant ancestors are from there. It could be quite hard to paint, though. Photos show it as beautiful and so very, very green. So I guess Herefordshire's probably out?!

I'm afraid Johannes will have some imitators once people start to notice his concept, but they won't be ever be able to imitate his depth. That Artie guy seems etremely knowledgeable, though. ;) (bTW, what happened to Artie's voice during the painting demo? The change was kind of a relief--I could finally tell it was definitely Joe's site.)

crazywoman53
12-21-2010, 02:51 PM
Charlie I think your painting is really nice and thank you so much for posting your process. If you took a photo of the underpainting in color I would love to see that too. I have always appreciated your use of color.

winecountry
12-21-2010, 03:07 PM
Great tip Scott, thanks.

There are several new people here, so I want to air a little problem I ran into, We have now become a small group in this forum trying to use and understand the principals shared by Johannes. Even after the classes are done, and no matter what else comes along we can continue to help and support one another, whether you were in the webinar or only lurking doesn't matter the principals are there posted and understandable for everyone now.

I recently got in trouble commenting on a post in Landscape, and even tho my post was really a comment and a question, I still got cited (but not fined:lol: ) for giving a critique where there was no specific permission given to do so. It did not matter that the person and I had a relationship of commenting on each others work on another forum on wc, or even that the person( I wrote an apology) was totally surprised that I'd gotten in trouble and really did value my comments.... on Landscape it is the duty of the guides and mods to enforce a "no fly zone" regarding comments.

So will you all please please put on your signature C and C or something that will keep the mods life easier and my private mail clear of reprimands so we can use and practice what we are learning with each other. If you put it on each post, you may forget one time, then people ,who intend no harm, like me get in trouble.

When I first joined WC it took months before I figured out the signature thing so here is how

go to My WC in the blue menu bar about 3" from the top of your window directly down from the Wet Canvas logo and click on that link

On that page go to the left side under control panel, and click Edit Signature.
On that page a text box will open up and you can put C and C, that will be enough to give permission or make one you like, here is the one I use
I welcome constructive critiques and comments Colleen

From now on I will probably not comment on any work unless I know you are sharing the same frame of reference used here or something like it. Without this knowledge and understanding it just becomes a random opinion given, about values, or using lead ins, or all the other things this group now shares.

I've given a lot to WC over the years, and anyone can find my threads, tho the pics are gone on a lot of them.... so don't feel I'm withholding anything, just not my turn now....here's hoping I don't have to dread opening my email anymore.:thumbsup:

Colleen

susanc
12-21-2010, 03:23 PM
I still got cited (but not fined:lol: ) for giving a critique where there was no specific permission given to do so. It did not matter that the person and I had a relationship of commenting on each others work...

Ouch! Thanks, Colleen--I had no idea. I signed up 10 years ago and have forgotten all the caveats entailed. I am now prepared to post. If only I had a painting worth posting!

edtree
12-21-2010, 03:26 PM
Colleen...what happened saddens me. Critiques are the way we learn and grow. I will add something to my sig today and please always feel free to pull out all the stops any time on any of mine :)

Elizabeth

Tattau
12-21-2010, 03:27 PM
Wow. I had 'assumed,' that posting on an open forum, that C&C was inherent.

winecountry
12-21-2010, 03:30 PM
if you read the guidelines you will find it is not, and there are good reasons why, some people do not want any public crits of their work.

The new part for me is that it doesn't matter if you know them from another forum, when you come to Rome it's Roman rules, and if in Landscape then Landscape rules apply

Thanks Elizabeth, I posted not just for me but to spare any others the same fate:thumbsup:

Tattau
12-21-2010, 03:33 PM
There! I fixed it.

susanc
12-21-2010, 03:33 PM
Johannes On Tour in Europe.

:cool: Ah, yes. Now Joe's getting the rock star treatment he deserves! Make sure there's no red in the M&M's...he doesn't seem to like that color.;)

JTMB
12-21-2010, 03:41 PM
Reduce the number of green M&M's also - but definitely add more yellows! :)

Michaelmcg
12-21-2010, 03:45 PM
Jim, Johannes, UK workshop sounds lovely, I'd love to! Now, it *rains* in England, though... so if we're going Plein Air...? If no PA, then by all means! I've been to Cotswolds, adorable! Or, it is said Northumberland has a very special beautiful light. Or, one of the canal islands? Or... endless possibilities!

Or the Emerald Isle where the sun always shines! Part of the UK? Well, we are occasionally when we win a major sporting event (Jim may appreciate the humour here)! :lol:

Regardless of where, if I can drive there, I'm up for it. Anyway it would be great to see Johannes jetlagged (Europeans' revenge for all the late nights)!

Michael

JTMB
12-21-2010, 03:48 PM
A comment on Colleen's C&C experience...

Having been through the webinars is very likely going to change when and how I give C&C, and probably when I ask for it as well. I have a thick skin with critiques and enough confidence in what I do know (and a full acknowledgement of what I don't do well - :eek: ) that I feel comfy ignoring things that I think are off-base.

Now, however, if I ask for C&C on a landscape that I think is pretty good relative to Johannes' nuggets, I might get the following well-meaning but completely incorrect conventional wisdom..."You need to push your darks more, you don't have enough value contrast..." (even though I've got value 8 accents) or "That hill in the background needs to be lighter in value than your foreground..." (ain't necessarily so, as we've clearly seen many times now). And, in giving C&C, what makes perfect sense to us who have been through the forum might well be met by resistance in which case you either shrug or attempt to condense three weeks of webinars into a couple of paragraphs.

Sure argues for ongoing instruction...let's keep our fingers crossed.

Michaelmcg
12-21-2010, 03:49 PM
There is another factor though, which I have just remembered. Artists who visit the UK and receive remuneration for work done, must now apply for a temporary work visa I believe.

I seem to remember a story in the papers a few months back, about a couple of artists from the continent, who were refused entry to the UK to complete some public works. Even though they were invited by well known art organisations, they were still stopped until they got a certain visa and even though they were from the EU.

I'll have to see if that applies to visitors from the US or Canada.


I'll have to check that out...

That's it then...............it has to be Ireland!

Michael

Michaelmcg
12-21-2010, 03:53 PM
Oh no, this isn't going to turn into a "My County's prettier than yours" thread is it? :)

No, but maybe "my country's etc"! :lol:

Michael

susanc
12-21-2010, 04:02 PM
Wow, Michael. You're really on a roll!

Loved the green and yellow M&Ms comment from John, too.

I like to think I'm in right brain mode when I'm in a playful mood, joking around...Unfortunately, the left brain always kicks in a little too late to tell me I've got my foot stuck in my mouth! How I love the edit button. I think it should be renamed in my honor!

Colorix
12-21-2010, 04:27 PM
It would be so wonderful if this could develop to regular classes. Would be really smart of WC (F+W) to continue this! How often does a real pro actually *want* to teach people? If I were them, I'd not let this slip through my hands!

jbercx, you're a marvel, absolutely wonderful!

Comment on Colleen's observation: Yes, guys, beware, every forum has its own rules on WC. Generally, no crit is given unless explicitly asked for. Smart to put it in the siggy!

I agree fully with John:
C&C on a landscape ... I might get the following well-meaning but completely incorrect conventional wisdom..."You need to push your darks more, you don't have enough value contrast..." (even though I've got value 8 accents) or "That hill in the background needs to be lighter in value than your foreground..." In fact, I think I've only posted all of 4 paintings during 2010, I got tired of those two crits, and responding "yes, it is a mid-value painting with emphasis on colour, with a few dark and light accents".

My capital is prettier than yours! Well, I guess Venice would be prettier than Stockholm, though (but not be a capital city). But Stockholm *is* very pretty, as it is built on islands. And how many of you can boast of a bona fide archipelago, eh? And we have evergreens-- all those that didn't fit into Canada got shipped here and planted.

JimS
12-21-2010, 04:29 PM
That's it then...............it has to be Ireland!
I was thinking Jersey or Guernsey, Michael :lol:

Let's face it, Eire is only Cornwall, but with Guiness and without the Pasties! :)

JIm

Tattau
12-21-2010, 04:44 PM
I live in the north-east part of England and I have been listing places which are an artists haven all within 20 mins to a couple of hours of where I live.
I really must get out more :lol:

Alnwick castle....Harry Potter fame.
Northumberland countryside and Hadrian's wall.
Beautiful coastland and even Holy Island with a causeway to cross.
Yorkshire moors.
York city with it's cobbled streets.
Robin Hoods Bay, Staithes, Whitby.....picturesque fishing villages.
Durham.....castle and cathedral.

Loads more all well within a couple of hours.

Sharron

Many areas of Britain are absolutely beautful!
These from a trip there many years ago...

susanc
12-21-2010, 04:51 PM
I bet if there was an option for a poll to ask if Johannes was

1. The best teacher I've ever had
2. One of the best teachers I've ever had
3. Is there really a third option?

I think he'd get mostly 1's. This is the most incredible opportunity I think WC will ever get!

Colorix
12-21-2010, 05:01 PM
Lynn, thank you!

Robert, great addition, thank you!

Sharron, thanks!

Crazywoman53, your wish is my command!

Thumbnail (from which I deviated, simplified a bit) I *always* do thumbnails, saves no end of grief -- and Johannes definitely recommends it:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/117343-thumb_smallAK.jpg

and now, put on your :cool: here comes a colour riot, the first layer underpainting:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/117343-AK_st_1_wc.jpg

Dougwas
12-21-2010, 05:31 PM
Thanks for showing the colors of the first stage, Charlie. Love it! Love your finished painting too.

Doug

SonyaJ
12-21-2010, 05:36 PM
Having been through the webinars is very likely going to change when and how I give C&C, and probably when I ask for it as well. I have a thick skin with critiques and enough confidence in what I do know (and a full acknowledgement of what I don't do well - :eek: ) that I feel comfy ignoring things that I think are off-base.
Ditto that. I have pretty much stopped posting my work on WC, for a variety of reasons. The first time I posted to this forum, with one of my early pastel landscapes sometime last year, asking for critiques, crickets chirped :rolleyes:. I think only two people could be bothered to reply - not exactly a warm welcome to the forum. So, that was the first and last time I did that, and I've essentially lurked since then until Johannes and his Amazing Webinars came on the scene :lol:. I've done a few of the landscape challenges, but that's different.

And, I pretty much totally quit offering critique comments as well, even when someone asks for them and even when I see something that maybe doesn't work so well. Certainly, I could never offer anything remotely as useful or insightful as Johannes, so why bother? I'll just stick to lurking and the occasional comment on work posted that I like. I can't bring myself to do the "empty praise" thing, since I don't think it serves anyone.


Sure argues for ongoing instruction...let's keep our fingers crossed.
Agreed! :thumbsup:

I would happily pay Johannes to critique select paintings of mine; there are certainly plenty of professional artists who do offer paid critique services, and people willing to pay for them.

Colorix
12-21-2010, 05:43 PM
Conversing in Red inside quote

I have gone the whole route:

college courses: flop around on your own, hardly any instruction, the most I learned was to stretch my own canvas.

The very reason I didn't apply to art college, as the prep course was exactly like you describe it.

workshops: mostly from known artists who really aren't interested in helping unless you are at a fairly skilled level. (there was one exception, she said I had good ideas, I just needed to learn the basics, but she no longer offers workshops).

One really excellent workshop, teacher not holding back. For the rest, online workshops... eeehhhh... (Except Johannes!!)

books: loads...

Loads, yes, but usually beginner info. Hunted up some old books, used, or on web only, with great info.

When I started watching, I couldn't believe it! If this is not able to continue, I'll just cry (and I don't).

The amazing level was immediately evident, he's a real pro, and what a change it has been! I'd cry too, and I don't cry usually.

... glueing myself to the computer, hubby hasn't had a meal in 2 weeeks

Glue's been abundant here too! (But mine has cooked for me, the dear.)

Hoping to be helpfull: one of the things I did (and still do) to help learn values is to take a picture of my mixed paints on my palate and convert it to greyscale. If you have a value scale, place it beside the piles for comparison in case there is a discrepancy in the photo. I forget where I learned that but it works beautifully. Went through a lot of paint in the begining, but if it's wrong, ditch it!

Great advice. I set camera to monochrome (greyscale), and it works better than desaturating in the computer.

Maybe I didn't add, I just wanted to confirm and show I hear you!

Charlie

winecountry
12-21-2010, 07:38 PM
Well he hit the nail on the head for me today

speaking of painting not what's real but symbols that represent the real. Each artist finds ones that suit them for their work.

One of the big things holding me back is not having enough experience in landscape to store up the symbols I need. That's the reason I went strictly plein air for several months....but without the information today I would still be stuck and not know how to get beyond painting what's in front of me.

star quote from my notes

Artificial answers for artificial representation, ie when we stand in Nature we don't "crop" what we see.... so in painting we substitute a symbol that
re- presents the actual thing. You can't just copy the tree, you have to find symbols that stand for the real thing.

Tho he's said this many ways for some reason today it really sank in for me.

Then he described one of my guilty pleasures, copying masters. Doing that gives you a vocabulary of symbols, so do it and borrow or steal from the best he says....wow I think I will finally be getting somewhere on my seascapes....I even found a site where someone put together all these great inspiring seascape artists from all eras...I'm in heaven...so many symbols to see, I've already got out of the hole I'm in on the current work

Thank you so much Johannes.:grouphug:

JimS
12-21-2010, 08:04 PM
Have you seen this one Colleen?

http://marineoilpaintings.blogspot.com/

Jim

winecountry
12-21-2010, 09:30 PM
that's the one I found today Jim! great place

jacquip
12-21-2010, 10:33 PM
I just thought I'd jump in here. I have been lurking for a while, was late to catch on with the webinars and so glad I did. I will concer that Joe is a fantastic instructor with so much information to give and he offers it so well that I actually understand what he is saying. This has been an amazing opportunity and I am so glad I found it. I have already started to see my work in a new light following Joes tips and advice. I am sure it can only lead to improvements. We are so lucky to have the opportunity to access such a great artist and teacher. I certainly do hope that someone "up high" recognises the potential of what he is offering and helps him continue at a way that is still accessible. I love his demos and have started to take more advantage of Photoshop in my planning stages now too. It makes life so much easier.
Thanks again to Joe and to everyone here for continuing this great thread, least of all Robert for his wonderful notes.

robertsloan2
12-21-2010, 10:42 PM
Charlie, I love your first stage underpainting. It's too wild. Gorgeous thumbnail too. I don't always use the insane colors but when I do, the results are so good. I should do that again on one. Sometimes I take a short cut and just use similar hues to the mass.

It'd probably be more dazzling if I did go back to the wild colors though!

Tonight's notes begin with a correction to yesterday's notes:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-Corrections.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-3.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-4.jpg

Dharma_bum
12-21-2010, 10:47 PM
I wonder what would happen if the following critique was offered in a thread with those who have not been attending these classes:

"Well, I see too many meatballs, and there is some clutter in the no fly zone, too much cloning. There is some stacking, and you could use a little more melody." See if you can do something with that pizza crust in the left foreground.:D

Dan

robertsloan2
12-21-2010, 10:48 PM
Second batch of tonight's notes:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-5.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-6.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-7.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-21-8.jpg

JTMB
12-21-2010, 11:15 PM
:clap: :lol: :clap: Dan!

rugman
12-21-2010, 11:35 PM
And, I pretty much totally quit offering critique comments as well, even when someone asks for them and even when I see something that maybe doesn't work so well. Certainly, I could never offer anything remotely as useful or insightful as Johannes, so why bother? I'll just stick to lurking and the occasional comment on work posted that I like. I can't bring myself to do the "empty praise" thing, since I don't think it serves anyone.

I understand what your saying, but you certainly would have lots to offer in ways of critique (escpecially after watching Johannes critique painting after painting for two weeks). Dont sell yourself short. Critiqing ourselves and others, in a positive manner, helps us all learn.

We, as artists, are are own worst critics. So its nice to have fellow artist just say "good job" or "well done". I dont see how any kind of honest praise can be a bad thing, ecspecially for newcomers. Every painting has something good about it.

As Johannes himself stated Thursday, Dec. 16 webinar:

(paraphrase)- "No such thing as an ugly painting. The only ugly painting is a blank canvas. We think of how we can make a painting more beautiful."

What would Wet Canvas be if everyone just lurked, and did not participate? Im not good at giving critiques (or feel qualified for that matter:confused: ); but I do sometimes. And most people are appreciative, even if they dont agree with what I say. (like JohnTubbs was saying).

Its totaly ok to lurk. But for those of us who have participated in Johannes webinars, its our duty to "pay it forward". Not just with regard to critiques, but more importantly by our enthusiasm for art! As you know, Johannes enthusiasm is inspiring all by itself. By teaching, you end up learning several times over. (another paraphrase of Johannes)

What a great group of people! And thanks again to Johannes.

Tattau
12-22-2010, 12:12 AM
I usually "lurk," but this thread has kept me captivated since I had found it. I'm in a very remote area, and internet access is very limited. Unfortunately, I'm not able to participate in the broadcasts (video is near impossible) but the dialog, and ESPECIALLY Robert's wonderful notes, has been an incalculable benefit to my learning. I'm planning on "blowing the whistle" on the whole process, and sharing what I've learned with all the striving artists I meet.

Thank you so much Johannes. You are a saint among teachers. I would also particularly like to thank Robert... your notes and illustrations have made this entire opportunity available to me.

jbercx
12-22-2010, 12:59 AM
[quote=Colorix]
jbercx, you're a marvel, absolutely wonderful!

quote]

You're all welcome. It would be great if Johannes can proceed with this great stuff and I am pround if I can make a small contribution to this.

I only hope that he will find another time frame. 1700 hours USA time is difficult for me and a lot of other followers because of the time difference between USA and Europe.Also, It would be a good idea to have the classes online afterwards, available for download (only for those who are registered as student, so that if you are not able to follow the classes live, you can download/recap the missed class)

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 01:15 AM
[quote=Colorix]
jbercx, you're a marvel, absolutely wonderful!

quote]

You're all welcome. It would be great if Johannes can proceed with this great stuff and I am pround if I can make a small contribution to this.

I only hope that he will find another time frame. 1700 hours USA time is difficult for me and a lot of other followers because of the time difference between USA and Europe.Also, It would be a good idea to have the classes online afterwards, available for download (only for those who are registered as student, so that if you are not able to follow the classes live, you can download/recap the missed class)

The next series of classes if approved by F&W publishing will be from 9 PM to 12 AM Zurich time on Saturdays for 1 course and Sundays for another course. Does that suit you John?
Now that John open the can of worms regarding the contribution I want the people of this thread to know that he offered me a considerable not a small donation to ensure the continuation of these classes. This one done solely for the cause not his best interest because he was even thinking he would not be able to attend the classes. I have not taken him up on this donation yet because I need to see how it would be applied to maximize this project to everyone's benefit.
I have received a tremendous outpouring of compliments and gratefulness, not only in this forum by by email as well. I just want to thank you all for even trusting me to help you along your artistic growth. I assure you I have read all the posts. We have one more day on the freevwebinar then it will expire. Maybe you want to let your friends know so they can visit the session tomorrow.

jbercx
12-22-2010, 02:45 AM
[quote=jbercx]

The next series of classes if approved by F&W publishing will be from 9 PM to 12 AM Zurich time on Saturdays for 1 course and Sundays for another course. Does that suit you John?

That would be a perfect timing Johannes!

And, I want to thank you for the time and effort you have put in into this, even when I could not attent all classes, in fact, I could only attent 4 classes because of time differences/work.

I really hope you can start a follow up on this one!

@Robert, thank you for the notes, these are gold for me. I have add them all into a word document, including important notes made here on the formum. Meanwhile, it is a 200 pages document. If someone is interested, I will transform it into a pdf file and sent this to you per mail.

winecountry
12-22-2010, 03:14 AM
I wonder what would happen if the following critique was offered in a thread with those who have not been attending these classes:

"Well, I see too many meatballs, and there is some clutter in the no fly zone, too much cloning. There is some stacking, and you could use a little more melody." See if you can do something with that pizza crust in the left foreground.:D

Dan
Already had a comment on this from another forum, that's just how it goes, if you use language and a group understands the meanings, that group uses a jargon that others don't get. like sports or dentists. So if we crit, we either have to use 5 sentences to explain the short cut phrases we got in the seminar, or just refer them to the threads for info.

I think the reason he uses the metaphoric images, is it activated the right brain to get the concept which then slips in easily and stays put...you can tell he's a teacher by heart because he's willing to say these things over and over...I on the other hand am not a teacher at heart and eventually I get tired of saying things, so my comments are getting shorter and dumber and more vanilla all the time. No one seems to notice tho...:lol:

winecountry
12-22-2010, 03:23 AM
Here is the painting that J used for a demo of how to work with a photo a few days ago.

here is my take
it is one of the best pieces of this difficult spot I've done
it has the color and light of the day
it has the forms of the land there, and the water is moving

On the other hand it is IMO not a good painting, and has few redeeming traits, Id not be at all interested to buy it or hang it in my home.

I spent a few hours today going over tons of seascapes, and could find a bare few that takes this viewpoint, I think I have too much in it , on too small a canvas, and the land and water are too equal. The one part I do like has almost nothing in it( the far left quarter) I've decided I need to copy some seascapes I do love and figure out why and what to paint, it does feel good to have accomplished being able to paint this place and get it right as a description.

photo is a little dark and dull, its night here...9x12 oil on linen
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/103030-bodega_headlands3412.jpg

jbercx
12-22-2010, 04:12 AM
Hi Colleen, from my perspective, it is a well done painting. The movement of the water, the color of the rocks, the dept, the sky.

Michaelmcg
12-22-2010, 04:28 AM
Ditto that. I have pretty much stopped posting my work on WC, for a variety of reasons. The first time I posted to this forum, with one of my early pastel landscapes sometime last year, asking for critiques, crickets chirped :rolleyes:. I think only two people could be bothered to reply - not exactly a warm welcome to the forum. So, that was the first and last time I did that, and I've essentially lurked since then until Johannes and his Amazing Webinars came on the scene :lol:. I've done a few of the landscape challenges, but that's different.

And, I pretty much totally quit offering critique comments as well, even when someone asks for them and even when I see something that maybe doesn't work so well. Certainly, I could never offer anything remotely as useful or insightful as Johannes, so why bother? I'll just stick to lurking and the occasional comment on work posted that I like. I can't bring myself to do the "empty praise" thing, since I don't think it serves anyone.


Agreed! :thumbsup:

I would happily pay Johannes to critique select paintings of mine; there are certainly plenty of professional artists who do offer paid critique services, and people willing to pay for them.

My experience with WC is that there are two types of posts which draw multiples responses, those rare exceptionally good paintings and when someone asks for very specific critique such as "I'm not sure about the placement of that tree on the right". The latter can be a good tactic if you want constructive critique, because even though you will get conflicting opinions, you can go with those whose work you admire.

But the one or two replies thing is useful too, because it tells you something. For whatever reason, most artists have difficulty seeing mistakes in their own work (I'm with that group!).

The only concern I have with all of this is that there may be a danger that some of us start speaking a different language than others on WC, so let's share what we've learned so far in language that everyone will understand. Also there are a wide mix of artists on WC ranging from experienced pros to very inexperienced amateurs. Not everyone is ready for a lot of this stuff, and most would benefit more quickly from just going outside to paint more.

Michael

Dharma_bum
12-22-2010, 04:36 AM
Colleen---I can't remember what the reference looked like ( I did just find the one that was drawn on a couple pages back, but it's pretty washed out so is hard to "read"), so it might help us that are commenting if you could post that too. What strikes me about this is that the lower rock projections don't feel very solid, there are few hard edges there, and those that are seem close enough in value due to the yellow ochre and greens that they make optical hard edges (do you remember that term?).
The business of the brush strokes in those rocks adds to feeling of non stability. I think if you are going to have busy water, you need calmer rocks to contrast with it. Might be time to break out the shrink wrap. :>) Maybe a few straight lines in the lower rocks would help too, provide a little rest for the eye. I'm finding those melodic lines are much harder to do convincingly than it would seem.

What is your focal area, the lower fingers of rock, or the larger, more colorful one in the midground?

It might be telling that the area you are most happy with is the least busy.

Dan

Michaelmcg
12-22-2010, 04:38 AM
Well he hit the nail on the head for me today

speaking of painting not what's real but symbols that represent the real. Each artist finds ones that suit them for their work.




I've previously heard some artists speak of developing a visual "language" or shorthand. I think most eventually go on to develop their own visual language or "mark" sub-consciously, but it's good to hear someone explain clearly why it's necessary.

Michael

bcraver
12-22-2010, 05:23 AM
My, my, some of us are up late! (It's 1:16 a.m. here in Alaska), so I know it's later in Washington. But looks like it's 10 a.m in Ireland - that's reasonable.

Anyway I just don't get what Johannes means when he says "tangents", a tangent is a line that just touches one point in a circle or is a change in direction.

Is he saying that a tangent is when one element (or significant point in a design) lines up with another vertically?

Maybe I need some illustrations, but I don't understand this term. If someone can help me before the next webinair that would be good!

Robert, I don't know if this was covered before, and I missed it in your notes, but at this point, maybe someone can just explain.

Thanks so much!!!

mij
12-22-2010, 08:47 AM
I have been lurking these pages for 'some time' now and have only called in on the odd occasion. Latterly coloured pencils and pastels.

I've found the key to this a bit late in the sequence, purely my own fault as the computer jargon leaves me ignorant of what to do.
Very many thanks to Johannes for these sessions, and also Robert for the very descriptive notes which I have cribbed.

Excellent stuff, I do hope I can partake in the new year.

Note to jimS, I'm in the SE and would want to be anywhere that Johannse is teaching if you manage to organise anything - but I do have some D&S holiday breaks planned. Please PM me if you'd like my addy.
cheers
jimW

Colorix
12-22-2010, 08:50 AM
Barbara, in mathematics, tangent is an 'event', where for example one straight line touches a curve, or two curves touch. What we call "kissing". (I'd call it a 'peck' more than a smoochy 'kiss', though :-). It can also be the point where two planes touch, like a sheet of paper on top of a sphere.

The root of the word is Latin "tangere", which simply means 'touch'. Don't touch me -- "noli me tangere". So, in art, it is used about where lines and masses touch in an undesirable and uncomfortable -- or confusing -- way. It can be the "mwah" of two pears side by side, or a tree touching the edge of the frame. It can be a fir continuing the deer's antlers. It can be the line of the background hills lining perfectly up with the deer's back as it grazes, and the brain gets momentarily confused, is the deer a part of the hills or are the hills part of the deer?

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 09:35 AM
Colleen I did bring up your painting in the webinar last night but noticed you were not present so I did not proceed. I will talk about it tonight

edtree
12-22-2010, 09:40 AM
It's taking some time, but things are beginning to sink in. Last night Johannes critiqued one of my paintings and while it had some redeeming qualities, it was more failure than success. (For those who were there, it was the one with the huge vertical rocks) I ponder the few successful paintings I've created over the past few years and then the many so-so paintings, and consider the examples from professional artists' and Charlie’s beautifully designed and executed pastel from Monday…and finally it clicks with what Johannes has been saying: Before beginning a work, pay attention first to the design!

Not only for my paintings, but how many paintings do we see here on WC that are nice, but not memorable? How much better could they, could MINE be, if more attention was paid to the design - not only the composition, but the values, the patterns, the lead-ins, the visual path, etc.

I wondered the other day why my paintings seemed to have taken a nose-dive since starting these classes and it dawns on me that technique without design will not produce a winning painting. So what if I can paint a rock…if I put the rock in a stupid place, it will not be a successful rendering. Also very interesting to note is that the paintings I've done in the past that were successful were flukes as I've never given any thought to design before. LOL!

For those who might think Johannes is teaching us all to paint his way, it is just not true. For me, this is a new way of thinking…of taking my own style and enhancing it by attending to and practicing the nuts and bolts that go into a winning painting and not relying on sheer luck.

Thanks for allowing me this ramble. I wonder if anyone else has had a similar epiphany.

Elizabeth

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 09:42 AM
My, my, some of us are up late! (It's 1:16 a.m. here in Alaska), so I know it's later in Washington. But looks like it's 10 a.m in Ireland - that's reasonable.

Anyway I just don't get what Johannes means when he says "tangents", a tangent is a line that just touches one point in a circle or is a change in direction.

Is he saying that a tangent is when one element (or significant point in a design) lines up with another vertically?

Maybe I need some illustrations, but I don't understand this term. If someone can help me before the next webinair that would be good!

Robert, I don't know if this was covered before, and I missed it in your notes, but at this point, maybe someone can just explain.

Thanks so much!!!

Tangent oops I cannot upload again. I will try again later. I had a picture to show this

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 09:49 AM
Ditto that. I have pretty much stopped posting my work on WC, for a variety of reasons. The first time I posted to this forum, with one of my early pastel landscapes sometime last year, asking for critiques, crickets chirped :rolleyes:. I think only two people could be bothered to reply - not exactly a warm welcome to the forum. So, that was the first and last time I did that, and I've essentially lurked since then until Johannes and his Amazing Webinars came on the scene :lol:. I've done a few of the landscape challenges, but that's different.

And, I pretty much totally quit offering critique comments as well, even when someone asks for them and even when I see something that maybe doesn't work so well. Certainly, I could never offer anything remotely as useful or insightful as Johannes, so why bother? I'll just stick to lurking and the occasional comment on work posted that I like. I can't bring myself to do the "empty praise" thing, since I don't think it serves anyone.


Agreed! :thumbsup:

I would happily pay Johannes to critique select paintings of mine; there are certainly plenty of professional artists who do offer paid critique services, and people willing to pay for them.

If F&W proceeds with the classes next year there will be crtique sessions every Sunday from 3 to 6 PM for 12 weeks starting January 9.

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 10:06 AM
Robert correction the size of the square for the grid system to see if we have a dead spot is not 1/8 or 1/10 of an inch. Rather the sixe varies according to the proportion of the painting. I tell my students to use this window size for an 18 X 24 painting.

http://www.dickblick.com/products/viewcatcher/

If the painting is smaller then the grid window reduces but let's say the window would be about an inch and a half by an inch and a half.

Colorix
12-22-2010, 10:45 AM
FWIW, here are some cool examples of tangents:
http://emptyeasel.com/2008/11/18/avoiding-tangents-9-visual-blunders-every-artist-should-watch-out-for/

Elizabeth, thank you, and yes, I've had epiphanies galore during these webinars. I so hope WC and F+W will see what an invaluable thing weekly classes would be, especially as they have the resources. WC could be a real tool for growth and learning, and help create great artists!

I'm sure we all learn different things, depending on what we've been struggling with. I've planned and designed pictures for quite some time now (have both of the Purcell books on Artist's brain, they are indeed a must-have), often spending up to 4 hours on the planning, and I have worked with masses (but not only three of them). What has been an eye-opener to me is the Melodic Line, and the Abstract Shapes.

Reading books, watching DVDs, well, they've taught some things -- intellectually. The really BIG thing with Johannes is that he's taught the practical use of it, and *shown* it. (We're visual people, right, so words without pictures do not convey even half of the info.) We *need* to really see it: the transformation of our perfectly competent paintings into hightened beauty happening before our eyes -- nothing beats that. We *get it* this way.

About not getting texts, now... well, I get by with the English language, so I don't think that is the problem, I think the verbal is so 'left-brained' that it simply doesn't have any impact when really letting go into the Flow of 'right-brain' painting. (Probably why we discover mistakes *after* a painting session, but not during. Also, why it is important to 'left-think' -- compare, measure, etc -- in the planning and design stage, before launching into painting.)

What I find is that things I've learned before, theoretically, suddenly makes sense and have real meaning, it is not intangible concepts anymore. Plus the entirely new stuff Johannes has been teaching, of course.

It is nearly scary (in a very positive way!) how much that which Johannes has taught and shown has changed how I look at paintings now. And he has just opened the door, I've seen there is a great outdoors there, maybe taken a step over the threshold, and I delight in the whole world of exploration that unfolds in grandeur in front of me.

The next step is to do, under supervision, and internalize it all. Of course we need 'B' after 'A' is said!

Thank you, Johannes!

mcbru
12-22-2010, 11:43 AM
Elizabeth,
The answer to your epiphany thought is yes, I am in the same boat that you are. Also, I'm not certain I would call your painting more a 'failure than a success'. How about another tool in the toolbox. I can't tell you when the last time I personally did a painting and when finished had a 'that's the stuff feeling', as soon as the painting came off the easel, it just doesn't happen as often as any of us want it too. Thanks to these classes, this forum, and all of the comments, I am becoming better equipped, for a new adventure!! The best holiday gift anyone could ever receive.
John

ZanBarrage
12-22-2010, 11:53 AM
Here is some excellent scumbing from the main man!
http://www.monet2010.com/en#/galerie/110/hd/

Colorix
12-22-2010, 12:20 PM
Zan, thank you! I've seen The Great Canal Venice in real life, it is incredible, it glows with an inner light, totally outshining anything else in that room. In fact, I spotted the glow from four rooms away.

Zan, thank you for being the camera man!

crazywoman53
12-22-2010, 12:28 PM
After reading through all the various post subjects I think everyone is in a whirl wind of new thoughts and ideas as I am.

First off Charlie.. thank you for posting your underpainting. I see the color triad you were heading for there although I see that the pink for the water works I doubt that would have been the color I would have chosen because I probably wouldn't have know what color to choose except now that I see it fits with the triadic and supporting colors.. Am I correct in this? If not please enlighten me.

Secondly... as for critiqueing other's work: The main reason I became addicted to this site to begin with was I could get lots of "very nice" comments from friends or family but those comments while appreciative don't help me grow or learn or correct problems. The handful of artists that stepped out and were willing to comment in a constructive manner were the ones I thank to this point for bringing my art from a very beginner's level to where it is now. Even most of them have commented, unsolicited that they see a big jump in my work. So I encourage all of you to find a way to comment even if you have to use other words to describe a melodic line and point them to the links of all that we have been so lucky to share. Keeping what we've learned under our hats because we think no one else will understand us would be like Johanne keeping his knowledge secret because he didn't think we could understand it. We do understand it and so will others. We don't have to teach an entire course.. teach on one little thing and it will help.

I also think the landscape section would benefit by a section where critiques are wanted and one for just comments as other areas in W/C are set up. That way if you want a critique you post there and get it and if not you post in the other. And those who really want to learn and share are spared getting their hands slapped.

And lastly.. I, like so many other's here, am almost overwelmed with the opportunity that has been gifted us through Johannes generous offer of time and teaching. I too want to see this go forth and to grow and learn and become a better artist because of it. There are not sufficient words to thank the many people who make this site wonderful... (I have a long list of names) and of course Joe.. This has truely been a Christmas miracle for me.

johndill01
12-22-2010, 12:32 PM
I wonder what would happen if the following critique was offered in a thread with those who have not been attending these classes:

"Well, I see too many meatballs, and there is some clutter in the no fly zone, too much cloning. There is some stacking, and you could use a little more melody." See if you can do something with that pizza crust in the left foreground.:D

Dan
I would dearly love to see the responses to this. :angel:

John

LynnM
12-22-2010, 12:35 PM
Thanks for that, Zan, how beautiful they are!

I am also having a problem now in critiquing paintings from people who are not familiar with Johannes' approach.....the revolution for me has been that I can now put words to things that vaguely bothered me about a painting. Now the challenge, in cases where I think the artist can be helped by a comment, is to put it into words that can be understood generally and are not a put-down.

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 01:20 PM
Thanks for that, Zan, how beautiful they are!

I am also having a problem now in critiquing paintings from people who are not familiar with Johannes' approach.....the revolution for me has been that I can now put words to things that vaguely bothered me about a painting. Now the challenge, in cases where I think the artist can be helped by a comment, is to put it into words that can be understood generally and are not a put-down.

Wow Lynn you are in Dundas. Just a short drive from me. Well next time I do an online webcam demo maybe you would like to see it done personally. Hopefully Zan is able to film it.

appydax
12-22-2010, 01:42 PM
Johannes, I am presuming you will keep all of us informed of how and what is to come, for those who have signed up with our email addresses to your webinars :confused:

I haven't submitted anything for crititque and must admit to have yet to do a landscape because I am supposed to be concentrating on a Pet Portrait course I am 2/3rds through ..... but you have me fired up to attempt one now that I have some of those *nuggets* :wink2:
I am another who has read about reflected light, etc. yet until actually seeing what and how it is applied, basically just flew over my head...whoosh :lol: never mind the values, no-fly zone, etc.

As for being a city/country being a better than yours scenario .....nope, not really.....I just couldn't believe the opportunities awaiting me for plein air painting which before Johannes, I thought was a ludicrous idea....why not take a photo and do it in the comfort of home :eek: Now I know better and am already thinking of how to manage to get some kit together for when the weather warms.....2 dogs, kit and camera......maybe even my husband if I pack a picnic :)

So thank you again for all that you have done for us and hopefully long may it continue. :crossfingers:
Zan, thanks for the great camera shots :thumbsup:
Robert, your notes have been great and your little monologue with your cat was brilliant. :lol:

I will be there tonight for the first hour to hour and a half but shall record the rest to savour with my breakfast and coffee and a wide awake brain instead of a sleepy one. It's going to be an emotional one though :(

Sharron

flowergram
12-22-2010, 02:09 PM
I also think we should have wine and cheese this evening. I have a nice bottle of chardonnay and Maytag Blue... and grapes.
Clink-clink....

bcraver
12-22-2010, 02:16 PM
FWIW, here are some cool examples of tangents:
http://emptyeasel.com/2008/11/18/avo...watch-out-for/

Tak su mikka Charlie!!! That was a great link, and really helped me see how the term is being used. I know about "kissing" (blush) but I think Johannes often was pointing out the vertical tangents in his design of that seascape with the rocky headlands.

Thanks again!

robertsloan2
12-22-2010, 02:23 PM
I understand what your saying, but you certainly would have lots to offer in ways of critique (escpecially after watching Johannes critique painting after painting for two weeks). Dont sell yourself short. Critiqing ourselves and others, in a positive manner, helps us all learn.

We, as artists, are are own worst critics. So its nice to have fellow artist just say "good job" or "well done". I dont see how any kind of honest praise can be a bad thing, ecspecially for newcomers. Every painting has something good about it.

As Johannes himself stated Thursday, Dec. 16 webinar:

(paraphrase)- "No such thing as an ugly painting. The only ugly painting is a blank canvas. We think of how we can make a painting more beautiful."

What would Wet Canvas be if everyone just lurked, and did not participate? Im not good at giving critiques (or feel qualified for that matter:confused: ); but I do sometimes. And most people are appreciative, even if they dont agree with what I say. (like JohnTubbs was saying).

Its totaly ok to lurk. But for those of us who have participated in Johannes webinars, its our duty to "pay it forward". Not just with regard to critiques, but more importantly by our enthusiasm for art! As you know, Johannes enthusiasm is inspiring all by itself. By teaching, you end up learning several times over. (another paraphrase of Johannes)

What a great group of people! And thanks again to Johannes.

Two kinds of responses really help artists.

Support is necessary because we all live in a society that's hostile to the arts. Non-artists perceive Talent as some mysterious magic that some people have and others don't - because what they see and compare everything with is finished paintings by skilled professionals who've spent a lifetime learning art and are still learning. Kids who start early because they took an interest get labeled Talented because they're a few years ahead of other kids.

Anyone else gets discouraged from even trying. That's just how life is. It's socially acceptable to put down other people to make yourself feel better or because you're jealous. "He was just jealous" is supposed to make it forgivable when someone insults your best work and ruins your day. I still don't get that.

So there's a reason for not giving critique and for forums where it's not allowed without request. It may not be as helpful if the painting's already sold anyway or hard to rework.

But I comment in no-critique forums all the time because of an art workshop I organized in the 1980s. I dragged in two dozen raw beginners who were scared of even showing their drawings to anyone, too burned out by constant personal criticism when they tried. So I set a rule of no negative comments on finished drawings. Instead, me and two really good artists and several other intermediates all noticed what was wrong and broke it down topic by topic, presenting exercises to correct the common problems all beginners have.

Wow. Within six months most of those scared beginners were selling their sketches. I was stunned at how fast they grew. We were all doing positive-comment critique - noticing every tiny improvement and commenting specifically on it so the beginner who got it by accident understood why it worked and looked good.

To this day, sometimes the things I try for the first time work but look awful to me compared to what I'm comfortable with. I'm used to my competence on what I've practiced. I'm sticking my neck out and taking risks when I try something that isn't my usual way of doing things. It's fun. It's a thrill. It's a shock when something I think might be horrible turns out better than what I did before - and I can't always see that when I'm alone looking at it.

So there's ways to give critique in a Support Zone that don't discourage anyone but still give useful information.

Johannes casually mentioned a few days ago in a session "Robert, you draw well. You have no problem with rendering."

That was as useful a comment as when he points out a line that isn't melodic - because that told me I don't have to be afraid to scrape off an entire tree to change a painting. If I don't like the result, I can put it back and the new tree will look as good or better than the one I removed. That comment told me I'm on the right track focusing on composition and on removing elements that crop up in the wrong place, like the no-fly zone or blocking the path into the painting.

I got a gorgeous little color combination on the side of the painting he critiqued that got cropped out on my scanner. One that I'll use again, I'm sure. The painting looks better with the crop. The scraps sometimes looked good in themselves, but I know I can do it again on purpose in a better context and make that little gem shine instead of letting it diminish the painting it first happened in.

So that's all part of it. Positive critique can even include neutral statements such as "You used a complementary red-green color scheme" and that does help the artist who might not have realized that was why the colors looked good together. We're all teaching and learning, it's just that in some forums it's important to filter critique to keep support primary.

Those are places to recharge when life gets too rough, as important as critique itself, a reminder that you are doing something good by painting and improving. No matter who you are, someone on WC paints lots better than you do and does things you wish you could with practiced ease. Others are just starting and techniques you know by habit are something they struggle with. We're all teaching and learning, that's why I love this site.

Johannes, thank you for bringing us this incredible class. I've been through another enormous skill leap. Now I'm looking at landscapes with the godlike perspective I have as an author. I can make it all up, create visual fiction. Steal a tree from the Grand Canyon and plunk it into Canada because it looks good next to a Canadian river. Put in an otter because my focal point needed something to punch it up and I know there are Canadian otters even if the reference was shot in a Midwestern zoo.

Every day I've learned something new and important in your class. I'll be back in January however you sort it out, eager to plunge in again and keep going into this unknown, wonderful territory. Thank you!

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 02:32 PM
I have an idea all!
Since there will be a party tonight, why don't we all meet in the wetcanvas chat room while the webinar is open. To get there go to the wetcanvas main home page, click on tools, then you will see live chat open.

Johannes

robertsloan2
12-22-2010, 02:35 PM
My experience with WC is that there are two types of posts which draw multiples responses, those rare exceptionally good paintings and when someone asks for very specific critique such as "I'm not sure about the placement of that tree on the right". The latter can be a good tactic if you want constructive critique, because even though you will get conflicting opinions, you can go with those whose work you admire.

But the one or two replies thing is useful too, because it tells you something. For whatever reason, most artists have difficulty seeing mistakes in their own work (I'm with that group!).

The only concern I have with all of this is that there may be a danger that some of us start speaking a different language than others on WC, so let's share what we've learned so far in language that everyone will understand. Also there are a wide mix of artists on WC ranging from experienced pros to very inexperienced amateurs. Not everyone is ready for a lot of this stuff, and most would benefit more quickly from just going outside to paint more.

Michael

I got rightly called on this in the Pastel Forum. I gave critique to a fellow class member who's been participating accurately without noticing she hadn't asked specifically for critique, because I knew her and knew she'd appreciate it and understand the terms I used. I forgot that all the lurkers would also read that and get hopelessly confused.

The answer is to define the terms within the post. Use only one at a time and make sure to give a good example of a melodic line, maybe even post an example of a nice melodic line with it. That way these terms can propagate throughout WC in all those other forums.

This time the Happening showed up in the Landscape forum. Half of Pastel Talk showed up for it because someone I am immensely grateful to started a thread about the class after the first day. Since I didn't usually check Landscape Forum daily, I might never have known about the class without that post.

But for everyone that posts art or comments on anything, there are on average about 100 lurkers who read and learn without posting anything. So writing for the lurkers too is important. It makes the post useful to everyone on WC and not just those of us who shared this incredible event.

Johannes asked us to pass it on, to share our new knowledge with anyone who's interested. I'm taking that seriously and will try to spread the terms and techniques wherever I roam. Last night he said something about melodic lines that finally clicked - "like a staircase."

That's important when trying to create variation, my first thought on variation was to alternate short straight sections with curves. The straight sections are stronger than I thought, the end result doesn't look choppy when it works right. So when I fix my painting I'll be looking for wavy bits to fix up.

The other thing that gets multiple responses on a post is to participate a lot in the forum, so that everyone knows you. If I comment on a dozen other posts by other people, then post my art, at least some of them will reciprocate. I get the most comments in forums where I'm consistently active for more than one day too, that's when my username gets familiar and people have some idea of what to expect in my drawings or paintings.

I hop around a lot and sometimes do get few responses - but that's always in forums where I haven't been consistently active. Commenting on other people's art is the best way to guarantee getting some responses on mine, it works everywhere.

Johannes, I hope you'll still hang around and participate even after you lose the webinar software tomorrow. I would love to get your feedback on my painting after I fix it and I don't want to lose touch over the holiday season even if you're still working out how to resume in January with the composition class - I sure need that one!

jbercx
12-22-2010, 02:45 PM
Hi All
I wish all a lot of fun and joy tonight during the last class! Unfortunally I am not able to be there because I have night shift. I hope that Johannes can go on with his plan he has in 2011.
@Johannes, thank you for calling me this afternoon. We will follow up soon!

winecountry
12-22-2010, 02:51 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/103030-bodega_head-1.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/103030-bodega_headlands_ref_2841.jpg

Colleen---I can't remember what the reference looked like ( I did just find the one that was drawn on a couple pages back, but it's pretty washed out so is hard to "read"), so it might help us that are commenting if you could post that too. What strikes me about this is that the lower rock projections don't feel very solid, there are few hard edges there, and those that are seem close enough in value due to the yellow ochre and greens that they make optical hard edges (do you remember that term?).
The business of the brush strokes in those rocks adds to feeling of non stability. I think if you are going to have busy water, you need calmer rocks to contrast with it. Might be time to break out the shrink wrap. :>) Maybe a few straight lines in the lower rocks would help too, provide a little rest for the eye. I'm finding those melodic lines are much harder to do convincingly than it would seem.

What is your focal area, the lower fingers of rock, or the larger, more colorful one in the midground?

It might be telling that the area you are most happy with is the least busy.

Dan

Very good observations here Dan and bang on how I feel too. Not going to fix this...better off doing it again....and I think it just doesn't make it as a comp...after looking at so many seascapes throughout history and in contemporary paintings, and not seeing this attempted much makes me think twice, if the top ones dont use this view, maybe I shouldn't either...and its so busy, the coast line here is busy, but a closer view might work better.

there is no focal area, I couldn't find one that worked, I'll try a few straight edges here and shrink wrap the rocks and repost.

Sure do appreciate the remarks they really address issues that have my attention.....the rock tutorial tonight should be helpful...I'll send this to Johannes it might make a good demo
Please accept my thanks for looking and commenting I value these remarks, My vision of what I want and what I can actually do is so far apart right now....I really have much simpler paintings in mind mostly the water, but want to get this rock thing too. So really tuning in tonight. :thumbsup:

winecountry
12-22-2010, 03:19 PM
Colleen I did bring up your painting in the webinar last night but noticed you were not present so I did not proceed. I will talk about it tonight


yesterday an appointment delayed me and I joined a half hour late...the only other time I leave is for a call of nature, and since I drink tea...well you know:lol:

Dharma_bum
12-22-2010, 04:01 PM
Colleen---Now that I see the reference, one of the difficulties I think is that it's totally in shadow.Very hard to get a sense of what to do with rocks when there are no highlights - which not only limits the range of value, but also the perception of 3D, which are tied together. Try going out again, figure out what time the sun will hit it optimally, and go back at that time with your camera and see what happens (assuming it is a reasonable distance).

The other thing is that I think the yellow greens in the foreground rocks are working against you. To me, green has a connotation of softness - grass, moss, seaweed, etc. I think rocks need to say "I'm hard". It will be interesting to see what Johannes has to say later on today.

I'm finding that while my knowledge has increased leaps and bounds, my actual painting ability has plummeted, as I struggle with melodic line and abstract shapes, and paint application. My particular nemesis at the moment is those &%$*^ ponderosa pines, followed closely by everything else. :D

Dan

winecountry
12-22-2010, 04:38 PM
I'm finding that while my knowledge has increased leaps and bounds, my actual painting ability has plummeted, as I struggle with melodic line and abstract shapes, and paint application. My particular nemesis at the moment is those &%$*^ ponderosa pines, followed closely by everything else. :D

Dan
Amen Dan, but that is usual I think as you have new knowledge to work out it just knocks the heck out of painting as you already know it, a good thing I think...I just got a Scott Christensen vid, the 3 lands scape one from smartflix a rental at $10, so I can watch him lay in, he does that melodic thing naturally, and describes it as "not repeating" which would not be that clear unless I had the melodic line thing from J.

BTW all just tried out the chat room on wc....works great but not sure how we will find the right room..., if there is only one then we are going to flood out anyone else there, but there was only one when I went...see you soon

sundiver
12-22-2010, 04:40 PM
Great tip Scott, thanks.

There are several new people here, so I want to air a little problem I ran into, We have now become a small group in this forum trying to use and understand the principals shared by Johannes. Even after the classes are done, and no matter what else comes along we can continue to help and support one another, whether you were in the webinar or only lurking doesn't matter the principals are there posted and understandable for everyone now.

I recently got in trouble commenting on a post in Landscape, and even tho my post was really a comment and a question, I still got cited (but not fined:lol: ) for giving a critique where there was no specific permission given to do so. It did not matter that the person and I had a relationship of commenting on each others work on another forum on wc, or even that the person( I wrote an apology) was totally surprised that I'd gotten in trouble and really did value my comments.... on Landscape it is the duty of the guides and mods to enforce a "no fly zone" regarding comments.

So will you all please please put on your signature C and C or something that will keep the mods life easier and my private mail clear of reprimands so we can use and practice what we are learning with each other. If you put it on each post, you may forget one time, then people ,who intend no harm, like me get in trouble.

When I first joined WC it took months before I figured out the signature thing so here is how

go to My WC in the blue menu bar about 3" from the top of your window directly down from the Wet Canvas logo and click on that link

On that page go to the left side under control panel, and click Edit Signature.
On that page a text box will open up and you can put C and C, that will be enough to give permission or make one you like, here is the one I use


From now on I will probably not comment on any work unless I know you are sharing the same frame of reference used here or something like it. Without this knowledge and understanding it just becomes a random opinion given, about values, or using lead ins, or all the other things this group now shares.

I've given a lot to WC over the years, and anyone can find my threads, tho the pics are gone on a lot of them.... so don't feel I'm withholding anything, just not my turn now....here's hoping I don't have to dread opening my email anymore.:thumbsup:

Colleen


Most WetCanvas forums , like the Landscapes Forum, have posting guidelines stickied at the top of the forum page. About half a dozen stipulate "no critiques unless requested", a couple say "if you don't want a critique, say so", many say "If you want a critique, ask for it", and some don't say anything.
It is hoped that posters read those guidelines before posting. If they miss seeing them, as happens now and then, it is the volunteer moderator's job to point them out. No one is reprimanded, in trouble, or gets a citation or a hand-slapping (someone else's words); they are simply told about the policy.
Some such posts may slip by without being noticed, but in general that's what we are supposed to do.
Here is an exact copy of my pm to you, complete with typo.
Hi Colleen,
I'm responding to your comments in *********'s thread. Please keep in mind that it the Landscapes Forum' policy to give critiques only when they are requested.
guidelines (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536238)
Of course, most posters do request critiques, and in those cases I know your thoughtful comments are very welcome.
Thanks !
Wendy
I have to admit to puzzlement as to what about this reminder would make you" dread opening your email".

Esmeralinda
12-22-2010, 05:01 PM
I believe this pm from Wendy to be very polite and respectful :)

Lets all have a positively nice time here :thumbsup:

Oops! time to hookup to the webinar ;)

winecountry
12-22-2010, 05:08 PM
Wendy this somehow is a bit different than I recall, so I stand corrected and would appreciate you dropping it now, and I got the point and will conform to the best of my ability as I have always done. I try to have fun here, being corrected for something I was unaware of is your job and it's been done thank you. The dread is as soon as I see a mod sending me a PM I know I'm in trouble as they never send one to say thanks or good job etc.

Irmaluz
12-22-2010, 08:20 PM
I want to thank you Johannes from the bottom of my heart. Your lessons have been invaluable to me. Everyone is right. No book or teacher has given lesson like you have. I am no longer afraid to put pastel on white paper anymore. You have given me the confidence to realize my dream of becoming a painter. I will miss you (you made me laugh many times) and everyone else on this webinar. But, I look forward to seeing you paint in Justin.tv.

irma

Davkin
12-22-2010, 08:48 PM
This past 2 1/2 weeks have been great, I've learned so much and am very greatful to Johannes for his willingness to share so openly.

However I have a problem. I'm so new to this that while all this info is great I can't really apply it much because I'm at the absolute beginner level and have yet to really find any instruction for brushwork and color mixing that works for me. I have a few books and one video but I've recently realized, (just before even starting Johannes lectures) that they only cover formula type painting which from what I can tell doesn't really even give me a good start towards the kind of painting I'd like to do, (the kind that Johannes is teaching). Even before the lectures I was beginning to see the difference between just craft and real art in landscape painting and now I think I have a real understanding of what the difference is thanks to Johannes.

I've really only picked up the brush a couple times and so I was hesitant to post this. I did email it to Johannes a few days ago but I don't beleive he ever got to it in his lectures, and that's okay it probably isn't good enough to be instructive there anyway. But I'll post it here and get some feedback from the group here, mainly so you can see where I am and maybe give me some advice on what I maybe should do to learn the basics. This is about 8X10, acrylic on paper;

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/201970-mill_hollow_road.jpg

I think maybe a crop that removes the evergreens on the right and take a bit off the mottom edge would help. I also think the lone evergreen on the left needs to go. However, more importantly to me right now is advice on how I should proceed to learn better basic brush handling and color mixing. I used mostly bristle brushes. I used Liquitex acrylic paint in a limited pallet, just titanium white, yellow oxide, cad red, cad yellow, burnt sienna and ultra blue. I'm actually still on the fence about wether to pursue painting or stick with drawing. (BTW, the only thing that Johannes teaches that I feel doesn't help with drawing is the info about using color) Maybe your advice will help me make that decision.

Thanks

David

PS, Here's the ref photo for the painting;

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/201970-mill_hollow_road_ref.jpg

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 08:49 PM
Amen Dan, but that is usual I think as you have new knowledge to work out it just knocks the heck out of painting as you already know it, a good thing I think...I just got a Scott Christensen vid, the 3 lands scape one from smartflix a rental at $10, so I can watch him lay in, he does that melodic thing naturally, and describes it as "not repeating" which would not be that clear unless I had the melodic line thing from J.


AMEN!

Johannes Instructor
12-22-2010, 08:58 PM
This past 2 1/2 weeks have been great, I've learned so much and am very greatful to Johannes for his willingness to share so openly.

However I have a problem. I'm so new to this that while all this info is great I can't really apply it much because I'm at the absolute beginner level and have yet to really find any instruction for brushwork and color mixing that works for me. I have a few books and one video but I've recently realized, (just before even starting Johannes lectures) that they only cover formula type painting which from what I can tell doesn't really even give me a good start towards the kind of painting I'd like to do, (the kind that Johannes is teaching). Even before the lectures I was beginning to see the difference between just craft and real art in landscape painting and now I think I have a real understanding of what the difference is thanks to Johannes.

I've really only picked up the brush a couple times and so I was hesitant to post this. I did email it to Johannes a few days ago but I don't beleive he ever got to it in his lectures, and that's okay it probably isn't good enough to be instructive there anyway. But I'll post it here and get some feedback from the group here, mainly so you can see where I am and maybe give me some advice on what I maybe should do to learn the basics. This is about 8X10, acrylic on paper;



I think maybe a crop that removes the evergreens on the right and take a bit off the mottom edge would help. I also think the lone evergreen on the left needs to go. However, more importantly to me right now is advice on how I should proceed to learn better basic brush handling and color mixing. I used mostly bristle brushes. I used Liquitex acrylic paint in a limited pallet, just titanium white, yellow oxide, cad red, cad yellow, burnt sienna and ultra blue. I'm actually still on the fence about wether to pursue painting or stick with drawing. (BTW, the only thing that Johannes teaches that I feel doesn't help with drawing is the info about using color) Maybe your advice will help me make that decision.

Thanks

David

PS, Here's the ref photo for the painting;



Im sorry this one slipped thru the cracks. It is better then you think. I will type something up tomorrow and post it

winecountry
12-22-2010, 09:05 PM
David, that's a great first effort way better than mine was, you have real potential....all it really takes is work.

robertsloan2
12-22-2010, 09:11 PM
Johannes said it, David. By not having gotten into bad habits first, you've applied Johannes's principles straight - this is a great little painting and I can see how much you've learned. So many melodic lines. Such good colors too. He'll go into detail on it, but don't be at all embarrassed about starting out. I think you just leap-frogged past any number of dumb things I've done in painting!

Watching him paint is great on the videos he's done. He'll be doing more through Justin.TV, the same as the weekend ones he's doing. Also DVDs with other good painters may help too because they show the brush strokes and techniques. There are lots of good books on oil painting to help with it too. But what you've got right now is fantastic, an immense head start on landscape painting.

Twelve notes for tonight from the last class. It's such a shock that was the last class, I already miss his voice and am looking forward to Tuesday's watercolor video - he said he was doing one on Tuesday so I'll be watching for the reminder. I followed his videos so I'll get it whatever day he does it.

I've worn out five Pigma Micron pens and a cartridge for my new Rotring ArtPen taking notes. I think now I know how long these pens last - but when I look at how many pages and sketches I've done it's still good.

First four pages:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-3.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-4.jpg

Chrisp47
12-22-2010, 09:17 PM
:thumbsup: David, although your painting is simple, and that is usually better; it has a lot of hits in it as far as I see. I'll let Johannes give you a better critique of it.
I feel you should definitely keep painting.

robertsloan2
12-22-2010, 09:18 PM
Second batch:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-5.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-6.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-7.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-8.jpg

robertsloan2
12-22-2010, 09:22 PM
Third batch of notes. I filled up the second sketchbook's blank pages and had to start a brand new one with the last three pages. LOL - these are voluminous!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-9.jpg

This page has the Big Nugget list in full:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-10.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-11.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-22-12.jpg

I hope I got everything right, Johannes. Please correct me if anything's off, just like you did yesterday.

B4painter
12-22-2010, 09:41 PM
Hi there everyone, It's been a wonderful couple of weeks! Johannes has been an inspiration of never-ending energy and knowledge! I for one shall never forget this special gift he has given to each of us. I too finally "saw the light" when I asked him about doing paintings from a magazine, the very next morning I took to looking up some of the things he's been telling us in the "artist websites" that he shared. Talk about information overload, I personally filled 22 pages of "the paper we used in grade school with the margin down one side". It along with Roberts' notes, you are an angel Robert for sharing them with us! will be transformed into a notebook while I get away from our Alberta cold and snow in January. Let's keep on talking up a storm and help each other along the way! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone:grouphug:

winecountry
12-22-2010, 09:54 PM
one of the things I'll miss is your wonderful notes making sense of all the info I just took in..

So many thanks Robert, you have really been a guardian angel for this group

lonelm
12-22-2010, 10:12 PM
I ended up with a bunch of connection issues tonight but got several chunks and with Robert's notes as always the icing on the cake. Johannes you have been so very generous to share all of this excellent knowledge with us and I think many of us had the "light bulb" moment in many aspects of the concepts you shared. It was most impressive and in the limited exposure I have had you inspired me to get out my paints. I think we all share in hoping for continued opportunities and if F&W don't see this then wishes that other avenues open. We are all anxiously awaiting a decision and hopefully a favorable announcement. Again thank you for giving us all this wonderful Christmas present.

Barbara01
12-22-2010, 10:17 PM
It's very sad that it's over for now, but I'll be happy to use the things that Johannes taught us over the last three weeks. Once I have some time to create more paintings influenced by his work, then I'll be sure to post them here. Hopefully these threads will remain active for several weeks if not months, so we may continue to benefit from Johannes and each other’s inspiration and hard work.

Many thanks to Robert for all the detailed and beautifully illustrated notes! I lost track of how many pages and screen captures that file my note books and hard drive! I'll have to compile the info in the New Year and see what all I've got, lots of typing for sure.

Sharon Hazen
12-22-2010, 10:20 PM
It has been a joy to attend the classes of Johannes Vloothuis. It takes a different kind of person to be a teacher and when that is combined with someone who is also a professional artist, the ability to relate to the student is felt deeply. His passion is contagious. Johannes has a belief that knowledge belongs to all people and does not hold back information. Sometimes we are not ready to hear apply the information and so there is reinforcement with repetition and lots of examples from the masters like Clyde Aspevig, Jim Wilcox, Matt Smith, Richard Schmidt, and Hurley Brown just to name a few. I sincerely hope that we can continue to be blessed and receive his teachings through the wet canvas forum:clap:

Sharon Hazen
12-22-2010, 10:23 PM
I would like to thank Wet Canvas for the opportunity to learn from Johannes Vloothuis of Cyberartlearning and thanks to all of the students who attended and gave generously with their art examples and notes (especially Robert Sloan whom I think takes incredible notes.):clap:

AlaskaDan
12-22-2010, 10:24 PM
thank you Johannes for the generous gift of your time and talents, and special thanks to Robert for his dedication in securing incredible reference notes...:thumbsup:

Sharon Hazen
12-22-2010, 10:27 PM
For my new artist friends you can see my art at
Edmonton Art Club, click on gallery, then name
SWCArtists.ca, (Society of Western Canadian Artists)
and
Edmonton Art Walk

There are various artists in these associations with members far reaching from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada:wave:

robertsloan2
12-22-2010, 10:55 PM
Carolyn Karch and I just started a Facebook group: Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni - a place to get together socially, post art done after class started, discuss melodic lines and other gold nuggets and of course interest others on Facebook in Johannes and his work.

So if you want to get in touch after class and don't know all the real names involved (like me) it's easy to find, just search for Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni in the search box on Facebook and join. I think you need to have a Facebook account to do that but it's free. Johannes did not turn up on a search so I don't know if he's on FB yet, though I hope he joins since his posts to the group would be solid gold.

Johannes, please consider that an invitation.

Big thanks to everyone who's using and enjoying my notes. I started doing them just for myself as a memory aid and got so surprised and happy others are enjoying them.

*Violet*
12-22-2010, 11:00 PM
kudos to you johannes ... for the fabulous and ever so generous infomative webinars and demos provided thus far .... i wish i'd have been able to been in attendance for each of them ... i do look forward though for future ones and will try my best to be able to attend and participate in them ... happy holidays to you and yours !!!

dotb
12-22-2010, 11:13 PM
David, you are off to a pretty good start...one thing noticeable right away is that you did not start paths in the lower corners! :), and you have colors blocked in that you see in the photo. Nice lines, and no little soldier tree line! Wish my first had been this good!

dotb
12-22-2010, 11:30 PM
Robert, a big thank you to you for your notes...I found the Johannes' webinar because of you and when I found out it was almost over, I was kicking myself for being away from WC too long...BUT...followed the links back to week 1 & 2 and found your great notes!
Between your notes, and all of the posts everyone put in, including Johannes', of course!...I was able to get the gist of things and the thirst for more, signed up for the last webinar, of which I saw about 1/2, but I heard it.
Thanks again.


ALSO, want to thank everyone else who shared their info, thoughts, and pix!

AND, to Violet, who told me how to see the webinar! :)

winecountry
12-22-2010, 11:32 PM
My take away gems from tonight, there are many, but here are two that instantly made my current work better,

• once you are done blocking in from the reference photo, put the photo away and start to paint using your painting fundamentals, not trying to copy a photo OMG this made such a huge difference and I am making a better job of it right off. Duh!

• when painting rocks lay them in with a stiffer square brush made for acrylics, it wil make the planes of the rock and give them strength with straight lines and edges instead of blended potatoish curves of a bristle brush.

• well one more, look at Roberts notes for the 90 degree angle of of light hitting a surface and how it changes as the angle opens up,

finally getting somewhere on Bodega, will post it when I'm done.

jbercx
12-23-2010, 12:58 AM
Carolyn Karch and I just started a Facebook group: Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni - a place to get together socially, post art done after class started, discuss melodic lines and other gold nuggets and of course interest others on Facebook in Johannes and his work.

.

Hello Robert, this is a great idea! I'm a newbie on FB, but I am sure it will be easy to find and use.
Also, many thanks for the notes! What a great effort!. Special for all of use who are living on the other site of the ocean / time differences, it is great to have these notes because I could only participate on 3 or 4 classes. I still hope they will be available soon for recap/download.

@Johannes, stay in contakt, I think I have found other interested sponsors. I keep these warm.

hewill4giveu
12-23-2010, 01:06 AM
I have posted many times but these are the things i have come away from this with.
A new awareness of art appreciation. I have only really started doing art for 1 year i piddle for half of year before then. I never thought looking at artists work was interesting other than there beauty. But Since Johannes lessons i have a desire now to just look threw pictures of other artists.

A greater stiring to learn even more than before. I did not know there was so much to learn by doing a landscape.

I have learned mountains, trees, waterfalls, rocks, stills well i think you get the picture.

This has been to me other than being here with my children for Christmas the best gift.

I enjoyed every day listening to critics , lessons and watching the actual live paintings. I know Johannes has left all of us with a wealth of information. Which im sure we will be processing for weeks to come in our pictures.

I think the books, dvds, are all needed i for sure have plenty. The webinar was such an awesome way to teach i just cant tell you how much i appreciate it. I have back issues i can't sit or stand for long periods so painting takes me a while. So being able to sit in the comfort of my home and get a lesson of any kind of art is just priceless. To be able to listen to others questions and have mine answered still more than i could ever begin to say how it helps me in so many ways. Thank you to Johannes , Wet canvas, and all the wonderfull artist who shared there questions, comments, and art so that i could learn just one more thing.

My only regret is i wish i had learned this when i was younger. But thankfull i can learn now and perhaps pass this on to my grandchildren.

My grandaughter asked me how often i was listening to this I told her from 3:00 to sometimes 11:00 at night. She said are you crazy LOL nope just so interested i couldnt stay away. That is due to Johannes' wonderfull way of explaining things. That is a gift not everyone has. Hope everything works out as planned. Teresa Howell

Micheline Hamelin
12-23-2010, 01:51 AM
From my view point, Johannes Vloothuis Landscape tutorials not only covered landscape issues, but has actually enhanced all of the aspects of what I do as an interdisciplinary. I sculpt, draw, paint, weave and write.

Too boot, I am presently striving for my BA in Fine Arts with a Creative Writing Minor and what I found is that the very lessons that Johanne took the time to illustrate are not, I repeat, are not covered in any of my drawing and painting classes. Being a self taught artist of 24 years, I returned to take classes to learn just that and never have received that most crucial instruction such as the pitfalls turning a good composition into a bad one, the gold mines of gradation to enhance your painting, the why fors and why nots in doing it one way versus another.

Johannes manner of instruction is unlike any other. We do not sit back and watch him paint, which of course is fine once in a while but Johannes individually took our works and critiqued them with us as a panel, he trained us to SEE landscapes as negative and positive space; more importantly as abstract shapes. Johannes taught us to see what the camera does not see, he taught us what the eye sees and not what the brain thinks it sees.

Johanne taught us to retain the integrity and the spirit of land yet recreate that very image with spice and vigor. He taught us not to copy a photograph past the main abstract shapes but to trust on composing an exciting landscape without the pitfall that many other artists fall prey too. Melodic lines and delicious tones convey our love of the land.

Johannes virtually traveled the world of landscape art to direct, tutor, and impress upon us what is good art as a total and what breaks a work.

To keep this short, those days that I spent with Johannes will always be responsible in my becoming a better artist.

mij
12-23-2010, 05:53 AM
Hi ya all.:wave:
I am one of those that have lurked these sites for some time.
It was seeing Robert’s notes that got me interested, I was unable to get the video though except for the last two sessions. But Robert’s notes made up for that. Thanks very much Robert.

Well the technicalities sorted I enjoyed the last session in it’s complete form and well worth it as well. I do hope it continues in the new year in some form or other. Many thanks to all that contributed especially to Johannes of course. I have learned much!
JimW

flowergram
12-23-2010, 08:20 AM
Robert, please add my thanks for your notes to the list. I sent you a private message.

Colorix
12-23-2010, 08:36 AM
Hi David,

Your painting looks good! You may feel like you flounder, but trust me, it is a good start with the principles applied!

Colour mixing is a science of its own... Looks to me like you do get it, as your colours are very near those in the reference, and, best of all, you've lightened what the photo shows as too dark, and you've done it within the appropriate "hue-family"! :clap:

FWIW, to me, there is absolutely no question at all -- if you want to go into painting, do! It is hard work to learn, yes, but as you can do this already, wow! Full steam ahead, and it all will start to make sense very soon, to you, you're good.

Charlie

lonelm
12-23-2010, 09:23 AM
Robert-Facebook is always something I swore I would avoid because of issues people I know have had concerning privacy and harassment. However, in my interest to Johannes I broke down and signed up albeit with a different name. I can not find your Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni either there or on google search. Not knowing too much about facebook maybe I am missing something but I see other people I know who have accounts.

Esmeralinda
12-23-2010, 09:29 AM
Thank you Johannes for this special gift of your time and instruction :heart:
I missed the Dec. 21st and had problems with connection last night but thanks to Robert's great notes I am still learning.....

Merci beaucoup et I wish you all here a wonderful Holiday :clap:

ScottCooper
12-23-2010, 09:47 AM
It has been an eye opening experience with Johannes over the past couple of weeks, and I sincerely hope that he/we can come up with a method to continue the sessions in the new year. The interactive concept has a lot to offer, and the technology that makes it possible can only improve.

It's also been interesting to see this group truly come together as a community. I haven't participated much, and I don't spend a great deal of time in forums (fora?) but I hope to continue here. Robert's notes have been terrific, and everyone's willingness to share, especially Johannes, has been very heartening. My experience with classes has been disappointing, with most attendees only interested in making copies of photographs and learning how to make things look "real," with no real aspirations to find a method of artistic expression. I could relate entirely when Johannes spoke about the social club type of art classes. This community has drive, passion, a desire to achieve and authentic creative voice. That is rare.

I would like to share my Christmas card image for this year, and wish all of this community a Merry Christmas and a blessed New Year. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2010/535891-winter_hillside.jpg

granddad
12-23-2010, 09:48 AM
I have attended all of Johannes lectures except the first two nights and I have learned so much. He is a great teacher!!! I certainly hope that someone picks this kind of teaching up so I can sign up for it. It would be well worth the money and the learning would be outstanding. Thanks Johannes for doing all of this. I feel that I have grown as an artist just by watching you. Its time to start practicing what you taught us now and see our paintings improve. thanks again for taking time out of your busy scdedule and sharing your knowledge with us. james

pezk
12-23-2010, 10:15 AM
As a beginning landscape painter, Johannes lectures have been the best Xmas present ever. Esp the next to last one where he talked so much about the difference between trying to paint a real "tree" and trying to see and paint the symbol for "tree" instead. What an eye opener, because who really tells the student that the representation should be the goal not the reality. WOW!!
I wonder if being able to draw well makes learning to paint difficult, because drawing is so much about observation and detail, so the eye sees everything whereas painting is more general, more cosmic. I have to think about these things.
I hope Johannes can continue with classes. I would be willing to pay for this type of teaching and knowledge.
And to Robert - thanks again for your wonderful notes. Having them to study and refer to will be such a blessing. Thx again.

Colorix
12-23-2010, 10:36 AM
I promised Robert to type my notes for the start of the lesson on the 21st. Meagre compared to his, I know, but here goes:

---
Still-life: Put hightlights on round objects (eyes, eggs, etc) even if the photo doesn't show them. "Cheat", so the object looks real and 3D and more alive. (My own note: might not always be a shine, might be a sheen, if light is low or object has texture.)

Tablecloths etc in drawing/painting is called Drapery.

Johannes prefers to vary the background in still-lifes, so it is not just one flat mass -- drop in colour variations.

Florals -- put all flowers inside the picture plane, OR let some flowers go "outside" as that will anchor them to the edges.

Trees + buildings: The outline (silhouette) of a tree behind a house should not be tangent to (should not touch or start from) any of the pointy corners of the roof.

--

Johannes Instructor
12-23-2010, 10:37 AM
Carolyn Karch and I just started a Facebook group: Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni - a place to get together socially, post art done after class started, discuss melodic lines and other gold nuggets and of course interest others on Facebook in Johannes and his work.

So if you want to get in touch after class and don't know all the real names involved (like me) it's easy to find, just search for Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni in the search box on Facebook and join. I think you need to have a Facebook account to do that but it's free. Johannes did not turn up on a search so I don't know if he's on FB yet, though I hope he joins since his posts to the group would be solid gold.

Johannes, please consider that an invitation.

Big thanks to everyone who's using and enjoying my notes. I started doing them just for myself as a memory aid and got so surprised and happy others are enjoying them.

Robert something weird is going on. The alumni page was removed and there is another Johannes Vloothuis facebook that is not mine that refers to me as being a CEO from Global TV. LOL. Maybe your received my wife's request to remove the false page but took the alumni off instead.

Johannes Instructor
12-23-2010, 11:41 AM
I have added a new page on facebook. Please add yourself to it. Search it under:
Cyberartlearning Art Classes
and please start your social networking

Chrisp47
12-23-2010, 11:46 AM
Thank you Johannes for sharing with us your time and extensive knowledge. I know my "vision" has improved vastly. I am going to work on my art so it does as well. I look forward to seeing more from you in the future.
Thank you Robert for your wonderful notes, I took copious notes as well, but you captured the essence of each of the Webinars, and your drawing is very effective at illustrating the various points.
I also wish to thank Johannes' family for letting us have him for the duration.
I found the group on facebook and joined, what a wonderful idea. Thanks Carolyn & Robert. Look forward to spending time in there as well.
This has been not only an awesome learning experience, but a tremendously enjoyable group of people to be associated with.
Happy Holidays everyone

Colorix
12-23-2010, 11:47 AM
Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni group is up on FB, Johannes. FB keeps changing all the time, so you might need to do a search of groups and not individuals? (FB is a mystery to me.) The words in bold are the official name.

I have two new people who asked about Johannes's classes. I've directed them here, to these threads, to find out more and read all the info/comments/discussions/teachings and Robert's notes!

Johannes Instructor
12-23-2010, 11:47 AM
It has been an eye opening experience with Johannes over the past couple of weeks, and I sincerely hope that he/we can come up with a method to continue the sessions in the new year. The interactive concept has a lot to offer, and the technology that makes it possible can only improve.

It's also been interesting to see this group truly come together as a community. I haven't participated much, and I don't spend a great deal of time in forums (fora?) but I hope to continue here. Robert's notes have been terrific, and everyone's willingness to share, especially Johannes, has been very heartening. My experience with classes has been disappointing, with most attendees only interested in making copies of photographs and learning how to make things look "real," with no real aspirations to find a method of artistic expression. I could relate entirely when Johannes spoke about the social club type of art classes. This community has drive, passion, a desire to achieve and authentic creative voice. That is rare.

I would like to share my Christmas card image for this year, and wish all of this community a Merry Christmas and a blessed New Year. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2010/535891-winter_hillside.jpg.
I really like that Scott. I cannot offer you a critique unless you request. This seems to be the policy of wetcanvas.

Johannes Instructor
12-23-2010, 12:02 PM
This past 2 1/2 weeks have been great, I've learned so much and am very greatful to Johannes for his willingness to share so openly.

However I have a problem. I'm so new to this that while all this info is great I can't really apply it much because I'm at the absolute beginner level and have yet to really find any instruction for brushwork and color mixing that works for me. I have a few books and one video but I've recently realized, (just before even starting Johannes lectures) that they only cover formula type painting which from what I can tell doesn't really even give me a good start towards the kind of painting I'd like to do, (the kind that Johannes is teaching). Even before the lectures I was beginning to see the difference between just craft and real art in landscape painting and now I think I have a real understanding of what the difference is thanks to Johannes.

I've really only picked up the brush a couple times and so I was hesitant to post this. I did email it to Johannes a few days ago but I don't beleive he ever got to it in his lectures, and that's okay it probably isn't good enough to be instructive there anyway. But I'll post it here and get some feedback from the group here, mainly so you can see where I am and maybe give me some advice on what I maybe should do to learn the basics. This is about 8X10, acrylic on paper;

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2010/201970-mill_hollow_road.jpg

I think maybe a crop that removes the evergreens on the right and take a bit off the mottom edge would help. I also think the lone evergreen on the left needs to go. However, more importantly to me right now is advice on how I should proceed to learn better basic brush handling and color mixing. I used mostly bristle brushes. I used Liquitex acrylic paint in a limited pallete, just titanium white, yellow oxide, cad red, cad yellow, burnt sienna and ultra blue. I'm actually still on the fence about wether to pursue painting or stick with drawing. (BTW, the only thing that Johannes teaches that I feel doesn't help with drawing is the info about using color) Maybe your advice will help me make that decision.

Thanks

David

PS, Here's the ref photo for the painting;



I am able to critique this because you are asking for advice. This piece has potential. You used a good reference photo and let me tell you many don't choose good ref photos and struggle too much. I like the simplicity of your painting. Like I said I have yet to see a painting that is too simplified. Also you were not enslaved by the photo and you changed the hills in the back to a lighter value. That was good! You do have a better line of the tree tops that the photo had originally. So you are editing. Good for you. The idea is for you to get the answers before it is too late. I really like the way you mixed greens. I advice you to keep that formula. The key is you went for the gold, meaning, you intermixed yellow ochre.

a) Yes, remove that conifer from the mass. It is darker than a value 7 so it is taking up too much attention. If if you changed it to value 6 or 7 the mid dark value would fracture that overall mass. You could also change the value of it to a mid value and be part of its surrounding mass that's hosting it and see if it works if you still want it to be there
b) The road ends too abruptly. In general allow roads, streams, and paths to taper off gradually just like a song slowly ends. You can move the bush to the right.
c) In the bottom right you have a triangle. You can offset this if you create a melodic line by depicting some of the grass to overlap the road.

To reinforce what I taught last night.
The sky is a shape. Within that shape vary colors and gradate the value if you can. What I would do is make one side warmer and lighter then gradually get cooler and darker as it goes to the other side. This works if there are no clouds

Davkin
12-23-2010, 12:49 PM
Thanks a bunch Johannes, I'll keep all this in mind for my next attempt at a painting that I hope to start tonight that uses a somewhat similar ref photo. I do understand what you say about there being no such thing as a too simple landscape painting but I do want to gradually work more detail into my paintings as I go along. At this point just adding more variegation and gradation would probably accomplish that.

I do plan on joining your weekly classes however you work that out.

Thanks again.

David

Ruthie57
12-23-2010, 01:08 PM
I'm so sad I had to miss the last webinar but I just want to add my voice in thanking Johannes so much for the gift he's given us.
If it is possible I will sign up for any further such tuition. I really hope that happens! I have yet to put what I've learned into practice and it would be great to know that I can continue the learning, get further critique and take part in exercises set by Johannes.
Scott...thanks for the card! I like this too.

LynnM
12-23-2010, 01:22 PM
Just to add my 2 cents worth, I think I am in withdrawal! The only way to fix it is to paint, my gouache is waiting for me as soon as all the presents are made. It is going to take a while to absorb everything that Johannes presented, it will only happen with use!

ZanBarrage
12-23-2010, 02:10 PM
I think I also need a period of absorption. I will be painting away for an extended period and then rejoin when I feel I have applied my learning. Otherwise I feel jumping from one class to another without application is very hard.

Baimer
12-23-2010, 04:05 PM
Instead of Sugar Plums dancing in my head, I have Joe's Golden Nuggets. Thank you Joe again for this outstanding lecture series over the past few weeks. You are one of the best Art Intstructors I have every been exposed to and I hope you continue with Wet Canvas in providing on going instruction as I have definitely drank the Kool Aid. Your mentor program sound extremely inviting. I am staying tuned for more details. Have a very merry xmas.

winecountry
12-23-2010, 04:13 PM
Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni group is up on FB, Johannes. FB keeps changing all the time, so you might need to do a search of groups and not individuals? (FB is a mystery to me.) The words in bold are the official name.

I have two new people who asked about Johannes's classes. I've directed them here, to these threads, to find out more and read all the info/comments/discussions/teachings and Robert's notes!


THANKS! so much Charlie, I'm a fb klutz but plan to get up to speed this year, it sure is where it's all happening, and many artists, I used to follow here are over there now, cant wait to figure it out and also to communicate with all the group I think there is a kind of freedom with fb and how it works.

ZanBarrage
12-23-2010, 04:20 PM
I can't find the FB page!

Colorix
12-23-2010, 05:04 PM
Zan, I've tried to invite you, see how that works.

aolaranora
12-23-2010, 05:40 PM
This is a link to his FB page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cyberartlearning-Art-Classes/121082251292346

and this is a link to group page of people who attended his seminars:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_184426631570594

robertsloan2
12-23-2010, 06:17 PM
Full circle - I checked and the Johannes Vloothuis Landscape Alumni group is up on Facebook - it's a Group, not a Profile Page. I typed it into the search window and it showed with the name and "group" under it. I've also just posted a link to this thread and to WetCanvas on it, explaining that students who found the classes through Facebook can find more information in the threads and that WC is free to join and has other resources like the Reference Image Library.

I've been posting my notes on my Facebook profile all along, started an album for them. A number of students were friends of mine (and probably some friends of Tatiana's and other students active on Facebook) who joined because of our Facebook links. It's just another way to connect, but I haven't forgotten WetCanvas or stopped making it my main hangout.

I was just offline most of the day catching up on my granddaughter and spending family time with my daughter, something that was very curtailed while class was going on due to its timing from right after she got home from school to or past granddaughter's bedtime and my daughter being insanely busy with other things. She had time today, so we finally got to spend some time together.

Just wanted to break up the idea that I'm trying to move this discussion to Facebook. More like open up cross connections and also get some of my Facebook artist friends interested in WC too.

Scott, your painting is gorgeous. I love the impression of tall straight trees you gave while the bark textures create melodic lines and none of them are standing absolutely vertical to the painting, also the beautiful abstract shapes of the shadows. Fantastic, very simple landscape. The shapes of the shadows also do a lot to make the ground flatten and tilt so it's got depth - that's so powerful.

I had wonderful sunlight today and needed it. But with all that family time I still didn't get a chance to paint. I looked over the pastel landscape I'm reworking that's clipped on my easel and noticed a couple of other things I want to change in it that Johannes didn't mention in his critique. Jotting them in this post is helping me remember them.

I could gradate the sky better in value as well as hue from left to right. In person it's all one light value and gradates in color from soft yellow-orange at the left horizon over to a cool violet-blue at the far right.

I can knock back the value 8 tree to value 7 with value 8 accents too, especially since I did get my Unison Shadow colors set and have Unison violets to work with that are mid-value instead of very dark.

I can gradate the tree lighter at the top to make it look bigger and scumble a little of the sky colors over the very tops of the foliage masses to give a hint of reflected sky light on it.

I can knock down the value of the pale yellow path in the grass by one value step so that it doesn't stack with the sky value, something I didn't really see at first because I was distracted by the hue differences. It'll still read as a path.

I also played in Gimp today with a new photo of it taken when my daughter took a bathroom break and the sun was up. I discovered a new Gimp function - the Perspective tool lets me take a slanted trapezoid shaped painting in a photo, select it and then straighten it out to a rectangle. That also corrects the distortion of the shapes within it. So here's a Gimp-corrected pre-edited version of the painting I'm talking about:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2010/70184-Autumn-Ramble-New-Photo-Unedited-Cropped.jpg
The colors and values in this photo are truer than either the old photo or the scan. I didn't even have to correct color! But you can see the value problem, right? I think that's called "stacking" even if the hue difference makes it subtle, or there's another term for "matching the value of a mass even if the color's different."

Johannes suggested that I fix the two humps in the background mountain range that sort of repeat, so I'll knock the second one into a concavity and play with changing it using the sky colors. He also pointed out the top clump of foliage on the big dark tree was a jagged problem area that should be a more solid foliage mass while he suggested the one facing toward the focal area (the bright orange little tree and patch of light around it) was a better example of the foliage.

Looking at the photo and the painting, I think adding another gap or two into the big dark tree to show more of the background would help give depth. So spending a few days looking at this painting and thinking about it critically has shown me a lot of things I can do to improve it.

If I'd reworked it right after class or even first thing the morning after class when Johannes critiqued it, I'd have made his changes and might not have seen the others. Now it's proved itself to me - he's right. Taking a while with the painting looking at it and living with it can show ways to improve it. I wasn't satisfied with this the day I did it but today I know why. I'm pretty sure now that when I do rework it, I'll have one I'm proud of and happy with.

Thank you again, Johannes, for teaching so much. Not least of which the skill of critique and self critique, something I've applied to fiction a lot more often than to my art. I'll make sure to remember to say "Critique appreciated" when I post in this forum so anyone can comment.

Anyone who has any further suggestions on this painting, I'd appreciate seeing them. This is the one I'm currently working on.

winecountry
12-23-2010, 06:57 PM
it took a bit but I finally got on...one thing is you have to request to join the group even if you are already a fb member and get permission ( in this case Robert) to say yes, and then you get the buttons to leave posts and other options.

Nice to see everyone there.

I like the idea of both sites, they each have their strong points and work well together

lonelm
12-23-2010, 06:59 PM
I have never been on Facebook. How does one join Johannes' facebook group or do you need to be invited? No idea and I don't see anyway to join other than like and that really does not seem to do much.

robertsloan2
12-23-2010, 07:22 PM
Judy, as long as you connect here that's fine. Part of the point of the Facebook group is to connect with students who aren't on WC and introduce them to those of us who are, get discussions going in both places. If you don't want to use Facebook, I'm sure everything that's posted there will probably wind up here too in this thread and whatever successor threads we post.

This one will eventually get so long it needs another one for the discussion as long as we keep working on each others' paintings and critiquing.

One thing that might help communicate well in this forum where critique's only permitted if requested is for us to remember to ask for critique. What I just did helped me remember that - self-critiquing during my post.

Johannes is teaching us to self-critique as well as critique each other, it's one of his most valuable lessons. Charlie did that too in Colourful Still Life. So it may help me to know when I'm going too far with changes to discuss my ideas for them and see what others have to say in what Jo calls "Art Court."

lonelm
12-23-2010, 07:28 PM
Yes I would prefer here to facebook. I have never been a fan of social networking and have seen some pretty scary things happen as a result of becoming a member. I am very tech savvy but just do not like the whole idea of that type of communications. Just a personal thing. I love to be social but prefer doing it without social networking. Thanks again for clarifying things.

Davkin
12-23-2010, 07:29 PM
Almost seems like we need a separate "Johannes Art Instruction" section on WC, maybe a forum within the landscape forum?

David

winecountry
12-23-2010, 08:25 PM
there is such a thing as a "sub forum" within forums but how to get one is very hard it takes a bit, and I'm not sure it would meet critieria. We did one in the Animal forum for equine art it only lasted a while before people started dropping out back to the main one

...maybe we could do a monthly thread like the challenge...ie January Johannes critiques...that shouldn't get too long nor be hard to find and we could all read each other and whatever Johannes has to say in one place and not flood the main forum with posts. Remember if we do that we have to say we want critique on the post.

Davkin
12-23-2010, 08:33 PM
...maybe we could do a monthly thread like the challenge...ie January Johannes critiques...that shouldn't get too long nor be hard to find and we could all read each other and whatever Johannes has to say in one place and not flood the main forum with posts. Remember if we do that we have to say we want critique on the post.

That could work, but then it would be nice to have a sticky just for all of the monthly Johannes threads so they don't get lost.

David

winecountry
12-23-2010, 09:38 PM
they could go into the hall of fame maybe

Marty C
12-23-2010, 09:40 PM
We are not keen to institute subforums if we can possibly avoid them.

They add even more complexity to what is already a huge site, and add extra workload onto volunteer staff.

From past experience they also seem to facilitate the forming of cliques, which result not only in the isolation of those forming the clique from the mainstream in severe cases, but tend to make it difficult for newbies to enter that clique and participate in the sub forum. This is unfortunate if the subforum actually has content and discussions which could greatly benefit the wider community.

Sub forums are only added if there is a demonstrated need for one, in that the requirements of a significant sub set of a forum's members are not being met adequately in the main forum.

At this stage I do not know how F&W intend to structure the proposed instructional webinars. The webinars may be embedded within a relevant forum, or perhaps there will be a separate webinar forum.

There is already a sticky for the Hall of Fame threads, and it would seem that most of the Johannes threads would qualify in that regard. Current threads are very popular, and remain near the top of the forum due to the high posting levels, so stickies are not needed. To date these Johannes discussion threads seem to be an effective and efficient method of disseminating the information to hand.

ScottCooper
12-23-2010, 10:38 PM
.
I really like that Scott. I cannot offer you a critique unless you request. This seems to be the policy of wetcanvas.

I didn't really expect a critique, thanks Johannnes. I can point out any number of problems myself. I'll change my signature for future posts.

Scott
C&C always welcome

ScottCooper
12-23-2010, 11:20 PM
Okay, I've just had a quick look back through some of these last pages, and Robert's self-critique impressed me. (Thanks for your kind comments, Robert) It's too easy for me to say I can identify any number of problems in my painting without actually doing so, so here goes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2010/535891-winter_hillside.jpg

To start, please recognize that this was a fairly quick sketch, probably no more that 2 or 2 1/2 hours, 8 x 10 in acrylic, done without reference and specifically for this year's Christmas card. I admit that I didn't do a thumbnail, either. This was also done before the webinar series began.

The scan doesn't show it well, but there is some warmth in the brightest spotlight area of the snow. Overall, the snow could use more colour variation, as could the shadows. (There is some colour variartion in the shadows.) The shadows are probably too dark in value and should gradate to a lighter value as they move further from the trees that cast them. The angles of the shadows are not consistent on the uphill slope, and they should widen as they lengthen to indicate branch shadows. The sky holes in the bushes at the top of the hill are too polka-dotty, not abstract shapes. The trees have some cloned elements, and the sky shapes between the trees need more variation. The reflected light on the tree trunks is probably too dark and there needs to be more colour variation between the trees and within each individual tree.

That's what I want to see corrected/modified when I enlarge this sketch and do a more finished studio piece. Anyone else, especially Johannes, is welcome to comment and critique further.

Johannes Instructor
12-23-2010, 11:24 PM
Read this all! Sound familiar?
http://business.highbeam.com/138173/article-1G1-15388025/achieving-harmony-through-design

winecountry
12-23-2010, 11:27 PM
wow I'm impressed Scot for the self critique you really got it bang on.

However one way to view this particular work would be a more decorative rendition...that leaves you free to take a bit more liberties than representational. and on that score this is very appealing, at least you did not clone the sizes of the trees overmuch and the play of pattern is very nice.

great little bit on that link right from the Man himself thanks Johannes

Johannes Instructor
12-23-2010, 11:42 PM
Okay, I've just had a quick look back through some of these last pages, and Robert's self-critique impressed me. (Thanks for your kind comments, Robert) It's too easy for me to say I can identify any number of problems in my painting without actually doing so, so here goes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2010/535891-winter_hillside.jpg

To start, please recognize that this was a fairly quick sketch, probably no more that 2 or 2 1/2 hours, 8 x 10 in acrylic, done without reference and specifically for this year's Christmas card. I admit that I didn't do a thumbnail, either. This was also done before the webinar series began.

The scan doesn't show it well, but there is some warmth in the brightest spotlight area of the snow. Overall, the snow could use more colour variation, as could the shadows. (There is some colour variartion in the shadows.) The shadows are probably too dark in value and should gradate to a lighter value as they move further from the trees that cast them. The angles of the shadows are not consistent on the uphill slope, and they should widen as they lengthen to indicate branch shadows. The sky holes in the bushes at the top of the hill are too polka-dotty, not abstract shapes. The trees have some cloned elements, and the sky shapes between the trees need more variation. The reflected light on the tree trunks is probably too dark and there needs to be more colour variation between the trees and within each individual tree.

That's what I want to see corrected/modified when I enlarge this sketch and do a more finished studio piece. Anyone else, especially Johannes, is welcome to comment and critique further.
Scott I think you just covered it all if a sense of representing realism would be pursued! This is a stylized painting so it still works fine the way you painted it. It would be interesting to see how it would end up if you changed it applying your observations. Scott is right about the shadows getting wider. Way to go! That was an advanced hit.

Now I have trivia for the thread participants. Here is the question and let's see who nails it.
In case a sense of realism is the goal in a painting similar to Scott's where we have shadows running flat on the ground and then they run uphill, as far as value is concerned which portion of the shadow would be lighter and which portion would be darker and why?

Any takers?

Johannes

robertsloan2
12-23-2010, 11:52 PM
I think the shadows flat on the ground ... hmm... we just did this. It's the dome of the sky light, blue light coming in from all angles except from behind the hill. The patches of shadow on the slope itself have more of the sky light cut off from them.

Here's what I visualize - base of the hill they're darkest. About where they change direction. They'd fade lighter as you go up the hill (less hill behind them blocking angles of sky light) and as you got away from the hill itself (less hill blocking them.)

Am I right or did I just create optical science fiction and curving light rays?

Aha - and for the two areas as a whole, the flat is lighter because there's the blue light from the sky and the reflected light off the snow on the hill to lighten it. There. I may have just made my optical science fiction plausible?

Or... errr... I blooped big time and would've just done a really silly painting no one except Venusians would enjoy? (Their planet is completely cloud covered so they don't "get" shadows. lol)

You also perfectly explained why I felt the way I did about Scott's painting.

I liked it exactly the way it was and couldn't think of a way to improve it because it's fine for exactly what it is. It's bright, it's cheery, it says the season, it's got a lot of cool little hits in it despite not having gradation and all that. It's stylized in a pretty way. It can also be a basis for a grand painting that's just as beautiful in its grander way.

So that tells me that I don't always have to use all of these techniques in every painting I do - it goes back to your saying "Don't solve a problem the same way in every painting." It's okay to not gradate in a stylized painting. Doing so is something that'd make a painting look cool but there are other ways to make a painting look cool.

Johannes Instructor
12-24-2010, 12:26 AM
[quote=robertsloan2]I think the shadows flat on the ground ... hmm... we just did this. It's the dome of the sky light, blue light coming in from all angles except from behind the hill. The patches of shadow on the slope itself have more of the sky light cut off from them.
quote]

WOW AMEN. Perfectly explained Robert about the shadow value.
Yes, when we stylize paintings of course with strong abstract shapes, the painting holds nicely together. Any painting style would work as long as its abstract design in the negative and positive spaces is obvious. That is the mother of all techniques. Same with Dave's painting posted earlier. If he were to make those changes he would have a strong painting even without the detail. I hope he does work on it to see it again. Someone with little experience but trained in design can take a very experienced realist artist who does not use abtract design to the cleaners. David would be perfect candidate to get this training before it is too late. That's why it is key that he sees the shapes and melodic lines very earlier before he develops bad habits. His painting has a lot of promise if he works on it a bit more. As you can read in the link above Aspevig did not put it together as long as he was trying to make things look real, When he gaves this up and represented the scenes in his own pictorial language and shapes did the whole thing come together for him. He took the hard way though. Read it from his own confession from the link below.

http://business.highbeam.com/138173/...through-design

Many of you if you apply what I shared with you and don't fall back into the photo trap will progress very quickly. Hopefully I can be part of this to make sure it you don't fall into the trap like so many artists.

jbercx
12-24-2010, 12:43 AM
Read this all! Sound familiar?
http://business.highbeam.com/138173/article-1G1-15388025/achieving-harmony-through-design

Interesting and very familiar.....

winecountry
12-24-2010, 01:10 AM
lets see flat on the ground and running up hill...the flat ground is getting more light, and the uphill is the slant so it is darker in value...( assuming light is more overhead and not shining 90 degrees to the hill. I believe it will be darker on the flat for one thing the contrast is greater, and lighter on the hill, but still darker than the hill assuming it is being cast so the ground plane is closer to the object and the hill is farther...



But in Scots pic it seems the light is 90 degrees to the slant of the hill therefore the contrast is greater than the flat land....so it may appear due to contrast to be darker on the hill, but I think I'd still paint it the normal way ie darker by the object casting, and lighter as it goes further away from the object....if I was there I'd really squint down to see what was happening..in case some reflected light was being cast into it.

Could be wrong but that's how I'd paint it. :crossfingers:

AlaskaDan
12-24-2010, 03:20 AM
this is a rework of a recent painting, I'm pleased with the adjustments made. C&C welcome...:)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2010/168427-Portage_Valley-1-5.jpg

Michaelmcg
12-24-2010, 04:01 AM
this is a rework of a recent painting, I'm pleased with the adjustments made. C&C welcome...:)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2010/168427-Portage_Valley-1-5.jpg

I think it's a big improvment, Dan, but the composition still bothers me. I recall Johannes showing in one of the webinars how a photo can yield several paintings (one with a river, mountains and sky, much like this one). For example if this painting is about the mountains, which look really good to me, then crop out a lot of the lower foreground. At the moment, I think they are both competing with each other for the viewer's attention.

Michael

Johannes Instructor
12-24-2010, 10:13 AM
lets see flat on the ground and running up hill...the flat ground is getting more light, and the uphill is the slant so it is darker in value...( assuming light is more overhead and not shining 90 degrees to the hill. I believe it will be darker on the flat for one thing the contrast is greater, and lighter on the hill, but still darker than the hill assuming it is being cast so the ground plane is closer to the object and the hill is farther...



But in Scots pic it seems the light is 90 degrees to the slant of the hill therefore the contrast is greater than the flat land....so it may appear due to contrast to be darker on the hill, but I think I'd still paint it the normal way ie darker by the object casting, and lighter as it goes further away from the object....if I was there I'd really squint down to see what was happening..in case some reflected light was being cast into it.

Could be wrong but that's how I'd paint it. :crossfingers:

The 90 degree angle concept only applies with the sunlight. Once something is in shadow it only relies on the sky light plus reflected light. So in this case the 90 degree angle does not apply. Therefore the horizontal plane gets more "blue dome" light than a slanted plane. which blocks out a portion of the "blue dome" skylight so it gets less overall light.

Johannes Instructor
12-24-2010, 10:18 AM
I think it's a big improvment, Dan, but the composition still bothers me. I recall Johannes showing in one of the webinars how a photo can yield several paintings (one with a river, mountains and sky, much like this one). For example if this painting is about the mountains, which look really good to me, then crop out a lot of the lower foreground. At the moment, I think they are both competing with each other for the viewer's attention.

Michael
Wow Michael good observation!.
On a positive note, the overall yellow ochre predominant is quite harmonious. The mountain itself is well done. Overall the painting looks so much better when we get rid of dark masses as you can plainly see. Nothing is stopping the eye from looking around that painting. Michael is right it is a good policy that if the painting is about the mountain and you want that to be the predominant mass then it should take up the most square inches. Next time try reducing the bottom part and increasing the mountain mass. You will see that the mountain will appear more majestic. . Also you could reduce the sky mass and place the peaks closer to the top edge. That will also help it grow. Remember I referred to this as mass budgeting. In spite of all this that painting has good hits and it did turn out well. I would be proud of it. Honestly Dan, that painting is as good or better than many paintings that appear in the Art of the West Magazine and Southwest art as well as some high end well known galleries and I am not flaterring you by making this up. Check out the more mountain streched version below. Another possibility is you give priority to the terrain part over the mountain as you can see in the cropped version below. In this canse the eye will romanticize the river and grass.

Chrisp47
12-24-2010, 11:20 AM
Here is my go at the challenge, presented by Johannes.
The shadow of the tree would get darker on the hillside, because part of the sky light is being blocked by the hill.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2010/165919-Image1.jpg

Johannes Instructor
12-24-2010, 11:23 AM
Here is my go at the challenge, presented by Johannes.
The shadow of the tree would get darker on the hillside, because part of the sky light is being blocked by the hill.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2010/165919-Image1.jpg


YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSS! You guys are getting scary! Once you understand how light works you can do portraits, still lifes, correct things that look to flat in landscapes, etc.

Colorix
12-24-2010, 11:30 AM
Hm, if a shadow is darkest nearest the object casting it, getting lighter and lighter as it recedes, I vote for the shadow on the horizontal being darker than the part on the hillside. However, the cast shadow on the hillside might optically look dark, as the sunlight is so strong there, while sunlight on ground is less intense. Still, I belive the tree-shadow on ground really is darker than that on hill.

Ah, it *feels*, intuitively, as if the ground should be darker, never mind trying to reason out why, it just feels right.

Merry Christmas, God Jul, Hyvää Joulua!

deanster04
12-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Can someone help me to understand why cast shadows are darker than form shadows?

robertsloan2
12-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Wow, thank you, Johannes! So my visual fiction is sound, plausible to the viewers! That's so cool. It's something for me to remember especially if I'm making up a scene or using a photo where the light can be really distorted. A lot of posters mentioned that a shadow can look darker by what's around it too, so that'd be very intense in a patch of sunlight with a shadow that'd be darker anyway.

I've seen what you were talking about in relation to paintings with loose techniques or simple techniques and good design versus realist paintings that have bad design. Heck, I've perpetrated quite a few of those over the years as I got so good at details - I think of it as a stage I grew through. For me this is also the big leap between painting from photos or life and painting from memory and imagination.

Davkin, if you didn't read his latest response, page back and look at it. You're leap frogging, avoiding a whole host of problems that realism and exact copying of photos brings.

Here's a link I thought everyone here might appreciate - it's the recording of Johannes's December 19th video demo: http://www.justin.tv/artofjohannes/b/275991572?utm_campaign=live_embed_click&utm_source=cyberartlearning.com

winecountry
12-24-2010, 12:57 PM
Are you saying this?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2010/103030-cast_shadow-1.jpg

and based on where the sun is and where the observer is placed in relationship to the tree?, and what would change if the light might be filtered from surrounding trees behind the observer....would things change? In the forest here light pierces through only in some places all others get lots of fill and reflected light. If you squint is there that much difference in the shadow right next to the tree and the hillside?

and If I look at the base of the tree, my focal area is more sharp so wouldn't I have to judge based on where I decide my focal area is to be, if the hill side then I see the shadow sharper and darker and less so on the peripheral of my vision.?

winecountry
12-24-2010, 01:21 PM
here is the update after rock lecture...they are way better but really this painting is just not a good comp for me right now and so I'm stopping...however there are a few places I like and some things that I've not done before are better understood...I'm going to go on with some rock studies and a closer view which I will post here as they will be part of the rock lecture the last session.

it improved a lot after the rock lecture, there are still some cloned places, but all in all it's a big step ahead for me. painting this big a view on such a small size has limitations too, but even so managed to get in some reflected light which really makes a difference. tho the photo does not show it much.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2010/103030-bodega_head_final_3422.jpg

detailhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2010/103030-bodega_head_detail_3422.jpg