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winecountry
12-06-2010, 01:41 PM
This thread contains the posts and chat for the one month FREE webinar, given daily by computer. You will need to go to the link he posts, which is hosted by gotomeetings.com They will ask for name and email to register the first time. This is a legit site used by many companies, so it's OK to give that. Many of us have already done this with him and we are still alive and kicking :lol: When you join you will be able to hear him, see his desktop as he demos and explains and ask your questions by chat.

Afterwards this thread will be the place to post and comment and get his comments back on your work and questions.

This is a daily meeting for one month here is his invitation and link, you do not need high speed connection, adjust the time for your zone here (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html)

As promised I am opening the Webinar at 5 pm EST. Here is the link to get in. If you are asked to register just type your first name and initial your last name. If you want to keep your email private just type in a bogus email address. Hope some of you can make it:

1. Please join my Webinar.

https://www3.gotowebinar.com/join/385314374
2. You will be connected to audio using your computer's speakers

IMO this is the best teaching bar none I've ever gotten on landscape, tho I own DVD's and books galore. No teacher has shared what he's giving and have to say it's not some little tip, but absolute fundamentals that have changed my painting overnight. He makes the concepts easy to grasp and remember with his conversational style and genius for visual image analogies
that just put the whole concept in simple unforgettable ways.


if you want a sample of his information or some classes and comments he's already given you can check out these links

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=778261

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801791

Please join us, both beginners and advanced painters are welcome, the only thing required is for you to have dedication and commitment to improve your work, in other words you are serious about your painting.

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 04:18 PM
The webinar access code is this one for tonight Monday December 6. The subject will be "All you need to know about evergreen trees".

Click on this link to access the room
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/186041342

Hope you can make it!

Davkin
12-06-2010, 04:37 PM
Unfortunately I'm at work until 6:00 EST, hopefully you'll go overtime as usually and I'll at least be able to catch the tail end.

David

Donna T
12-06-2010, 08:36 PM
Thanks for the great information on painting evergreen trees, Johannes! Everything you provided was very useful and much appreciated. I will be on the lookout for meatballs in the trees and the Great Wall of China (or Jackson Hole) from this point on. I am just getting to the point where I feel I can give myself permission to move trees to improve a composition so seeing your demo helped to show how important that concept is. I lost the audio connection near the end tonight but hopefully that was just me.

Davkin
12-06-2010, 08:38 PM
Even though I arrived quite late I still got nearly 2 hours of wonderful information. Thank you for being so generous with your time and knowledge Johannes.

You again expressed your desire that more people post for critiques and questions. The reason for holding back has been that I'm a beginner and haven't really done much, and also I'm primarily interested in drawing, at least for the foreseeable future. However 90% of what you are teaching us is just as relevant for drawings as it is for paintings. Heck, much of what you are talking about would be relevant to many subjects, not just representational landscape.

I'm currently working up a "design" for my next drawing and did this sketch of a winter scene, so in the interest of participating instead of just lurking I'm posting it and would like your opinion of it's design;

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/201970-sketchbook-05036.jpg

Thanks

David

susanc
12-06-2010, 08:38 PM
thnks--I learned more about evergreens in this webinar than in my 4 years of art classes at school!
Susan

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 08:47 PM
Even though I arrived quite late I still got nearly 2 hours of wonderful information. Thank you for being so generous with your time and knowledge Johannes.

You again expressed your desire that more people post for critiques and questions. The reason for holding back has been that I'm a beginner and haven't really done much, and also I'm primarily interested in drawing, at least for the foreseeable future. However 90% of what you are teaching us is just as relevant for drawings as it is for paintings. Heck, much of what you are talking about would be relevant to many subjects, not just representational landscape.

I'm currently working up a "design" for my next drawing and did this sketch of a winter scene, so in the interest of participating instead of just lurking I'm posting it and would like your opinion of it's design;

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/201970-sketchbook-05036.jpg

Thanks

David

Hey I like that. I do feel the place. You need to show more value contrasts though and be careful not to clone those two trees.

deanster04
12-06-2010, 08:49 PM
I feel more motivated to paint trees now, thanks for caring and sharing your information with us :grouphug:

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 08:49 PM
Pointers on Painting Evergreen trees

• They usually appear dark in paintings but try to keep them no darker than a value 7. If need you can make them into a mid value. Avoid real dark evergreen trees unless necessary. When grouped together avoid repeating the height of their tips. Also avoid that they can connect with a ruler. Think in clumps of trees all connected into one mass. Don’t paint one a time.
• Try to vary their angles and widths. Also some end up having more blunt tips. Others have sharper more pointed tips. Think like a butter knife vrs. A steak knife.
• To avoid a “wall” effect place smaller evergreens in front of larger ones.
• Show different rows of evergreens. Show some behind others. Also avoid a straight line at their bottoms. Show a few closer than others so your grass doesn’t end up in a straight line.
• You can never have too much brown in your evergreens. In fact prioritize the browns
• The last evergreen tree in a row can lean forward to avoid an abrupt stop. This last tree can be accompanied by a foliage free dead one. It looks great when it is curved.
• A burnt sienna and/or Indian red evergreen tree in the midst of a bunch of normal olive green helps offset the monotony and increases the beauty of the focal point.
• Avoid mirrored sides on the trees. By placing them in a group this will help. Triangle shaped evergreens bother. Think of biting into the positive shape to make them less symmetrical.
• The dark part of evergreen trees off in the distance take on a mauvy look.
• Place bare tree trunks only under the overhanging boughs. Some of these trunks should lean. Also place branches on these trunks from west to east.
• After several inches a group of evergreens get boring. Enhance the mass by adding dead trees, round ones, or leafless winter trees.
• Visualize boughs protruding toward you.
• Place a group of evergreen trees in a pyramid line up.
• Avoid the tip of an evergreen from pointing to the tip of a mountain.
• When you have evergreen trees in different planes the furthest plane should contain softer edges than the trees in front.
• When grouping evergreen trees avoid the hacker saw effect where the tops of them are in a zig zag.
• Check the concave negative entrances as well as the positive protrusions. Basically avoid repeating the same diameter, the same height and avoid any cloning of negative gaps.

oldradagast
12-06-2010, 09:06 PM
This was an incredible web seminar - thanks Johannes!!

A few things (of many!) that stuck in my mind:

1) The concept of applying the melodic lies everywhere: I sort of figured out the concept when applied against the background sky, but I never thought of applying it to other places, such as a long a shoreline, or along the BOTTOM of a group of trees. Very enlightening!

2) Breaking the "wall of trees!" Okay, I'm guilty of creating walls of trees at various times. Breaking them up via using the 1/3 or 2/3 rule (don't let the wall stretch solidly across the painting) and applying the melodic line to both the top and the bottom - by pulling trees forward (baby trees, etc.) was an eye-opener to me.

3) It was also very interesting to see how many photographs (even those of the most beautiful and "artistic" areas of the world - the Grand Tetons National Park) would not work if copied directly, regardless of one's ability to paint in ultra-detail. The fact is that that if the abstract shapes don't work, the painting falls apart, regardless of detail level.

4) All the little "traps" nature can throw at you: walls of trees, boring triangular hills, dull and repetitive Christmas-tree style conifers, and so on. Again, if you paint what the photo shows, you'll still end up with a boring painting.

5) An end to inky evergreens! Don't make your conifers black or "near black" or you just produce dead zones in the painting. Amazingly, some of the examples had conifers that were lighter in value than surrounding areas (catching low angle sunlight) and it worked well. So, there are more choices to evergreen color than "shades of black."

greg p
12-06-2010, 09:06 PM
thanks for taking the time to do this Johannes, this would have been my first art lesson since high school and you really opened my eyes to many facets of painting composition i wasn't aware of, musical harmony,assessing values, i will tune in again. unfortunately wasn't able to hear the other students questions? being not too good with the computer perhaps i messed up. no drawing today ,but this, will pick up sketch book in morning.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/201483-DSCN1563.JPG again thank you, greg

robertsloan2
12-06-2010, 09:07 PM
Johannes, thank you! Tonight's class on evergreens solved a different problem - the problem painting I mentioned in my email. Here's the painting in its current iteration. I'm not going to rework it, I'm going to do another version of it from scratch since I doubt there's a quick and easy fix.

You've shown me tonight why it didn't win anything in the contest I entered it in. But that's okay, another painting of the same view is going to be so far beyond it that I might as well be a different guy. I can see a lot of the problems you talked about in this, but I'd like your eyes on it too. I think the shape of the hill with the cliff is boring and that I repeated the cliff rocks with that left brain evening-up problem... and when I think of the actual scene, I distorted it by doing so.

Attached in order are:

The watercolor preliminary version I did that everyone likes better than the pastel painting.

The pastel painting, current iteration, sitting on my corkboard for me to mull on it and see if I can do better.

The crop I made for composition

The reference photo I made the crop from, reduced to 800 pixels. It's actually 1200 and does have some detail.

It's a painting for the lady that helped us move, who grew up in the house on that cliff, done from her favorite lookout spot on Mt. Petit Jean. When I offered to do her a pastel painting, she was very definite about which view she wanted. She's now waited a year and a half for this return-gift for her incredible housewarming efforts for our family. I want to give her a painting truly professional in quality, which neither of these iterations is in my opinion. I've done tons better. I've even done better landscapes.

Thanks to tonight's lecture, I can understand some of where I went wrong with it. Lines that aren't musical and nothing to really point toward the focal point (her old house) other than contrast and sitting on the Rule of Three point. I also turned most of the trees into green meatballs all the same size. Yeesh, it's almost cloned!

All critique appreciated, from you and anyone else in this thread!

robertsloan2
12-06-2010, 09:14 PM
Also, here's my notes from tonight's class. Again I jotted little example trees in Pitt pens and wrote notes on what you were saying mingled with my occasional observations. All of these marker drawings are done with Pitt Artist Pens, brush tip, and I've been using them more like the brush work you described. Sometimes laying the pen on its side to swing it around like a brush instead of holding it like a pen.

The first little black pine was done like that, just scribbling a pine to show what it was about.

When you said it wouldn't work to have the jagged sides of the tree because of the eye height of viewer vs. a 40 foot tree, that reminded me of perspective on cylinders and cones -- eye height would be close to the bottom and the successive "umbrellas" of foliage would be farther and farther above eye height. Thus that perspective diagram, a tangential observation on page 41. What I thought you were about to say before you started talking about why to go looser in depicting it.

It works much better treating even evergreen foliage as masses with light and dark areas and only detailing it in areas where I want to focus attention. That's something I learned in Colorix's still life pastels class but apply in landscapes too.

I also tried to put in examples of melodic lines and copy some of your examples with shortened text.

Hope these notes help some others including lurkers! Please, please correct me if anything I put in them is wrong, because I'm not too proud to say you are way beyond me. Even when some of the things you say are familiar, it's because I was doing them intuitively from observation and not because I understood the principle or could articulate it.

Applying the rule of thirds to the composition as a whole was something I was familiar with. Applying it even to details like where to place a tree that falls in a gap is awesome, that's like fractals. It'd unify the whole thing.

Breaking the Great Wall by pushing a third of it back farther into the composition to make a space to walk around in a zigzag is great.

Not doing the pines down to the deepest darks, the value range for the whole painting can work a lot better. I have that written down in my other notes - drop values 1, 9 and 10, use 8 for accents and group the others for sky, mid-darks and mid tones with a couple of values each to give definition. Then use hue and temperature to push things farther forward and back. I got a lot of color to push things forward and back in Charlie's pastel class, this reinforces that lesson so much and it's helping me apply it in landscapes.

Thanks for giving my mind a good workout. There's a lot for me to remember from tonight, more than is in these notes. I've also got some pages of typed ones that are a lot less organized about the composition stuff. Breaking up repetitions applies to both types of trees and probably to rocks, clouds and other elements too.

I'm going to stick with this and do a lot of sketching, then after I've gotten a handle on it in quick sketches start applying it in serious painting. I've learned so much in just two days that I now have a good idea of how to go about fixing the problem painting, though I'm sure you may have other things to point out about it too.

Last, I noticed in your own paintings that you also use shadows from clouds to focus intense light on some elements of your composition and de-emphasize others. So it's not just moving the things I can see within the painting to give emphasis. It can also involve moving what I can't see within the painting: the angle of the sun and placement of shadows to cool and darken some areas.

Chrisp47
12-06-2010, 09:24 PM
:clap: Thank you Johannes, for your wonderful Webinar. Even though I am a relatively new painter and gained a lot of insights into painting basics of design and composition. Most notable for me were: abstract massed, melody lines, as well as some of the nuggets regarding the painting of trees.
Well done.

dollardays
12-06-2010, 09:56 PM
Thanks for a great evening of instruction Johannes. Learned a lot about shapes and how to make them more INTERESTING!!!!

Here is a recent painting, and some changes I did in Photoshop based on what I learned tonight. I know they help the piece quite a bit; is there anything else I should do?

Thanks!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/3589-September-Barn-WITH-CHANGES.jpg

allydoodle
12-06-2010, 10:04 PM
Johannes,

Thanks so much for giving your time and knowledge so generously. It is so very much appreciated, you have no idea. Right now I'm in the middle of two portrait commissions due for Christmas, so I'm squeezing in the Webinar to glean as much as I can from your instructions. Doing some painting excercises will have to wait until I finish these two portraits. I am feverishly taking notes, and the visuals you provide really do lock the information more easily into my brain :lol: .

I printed out your pointers on painting evergreens and am posting it in my studio. I'm wondering if you have a similiar list of pointers for the two previous webinars you've done (trees, and the first one, not sure what the subject was)? I took lots of notes during the trees webinar, but I didn't know about the first webinar, so I missed it.

Again, thanks so much for your generosity.

Grainne
12-06-2010, 10:46 PM
Tonight was quite a learning experience! You were very giving, as any true teacher is, and I appreciate that! So much to think about, not just about evergreen trees but about composition in general.

I work in watercolors, and although your examples were in oil, I'm hoping to "translate" what I am learning in your webinairs. Do you have any tips specifically for watercolors and what the watercolorist might have to pay particular attention to in the application of the principles you are teaching?

For example, here is one of my watercolors that contains evergreen trees in the landscape. Any suggestions about how I might have handled them better in watercolor?

Loved all the information about the melodic line and visual music too :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Mar-2010/28471-Birdies.jpg



Thanks again ever so much!!
Grainne

winecountry
12-06-2010, 11:13 PM
Great job on that note book Robert everything readable and really clear so I'm not going to add much here, maybe the best hint I have to give is that you can get free apps from the internet that let you take screen shots, mine is called Grab. I take the window he's demonstrating on and click it, it takes a camera shot and I get a numbered screen shot. I put that number next to my notes and after class make small pics in PS and print and number them to put next to the notes I took, very time consuming tomorrow I'm going back to how Robert does it, more direct. But this is one sure way not to lose anything going on. Tomorrow going to try a combination of both ways, and just Grab a few of the more complex ones.


The very good part is there is mostly just a few major concepts, melodic lines, being the big one, and how that applies to all, and he goes over them time after time by analyzing different paintings, the concepts are not hard, nor do you have to remember the words, the way he teaches, you just pick it up, as we go along he adds more small parts to them and how they are used, but the major part is still the same.

Best one today probably came from a question on the chat board, as he said
"Yes, it's not easy, or simple, you do have to work and the best high level paintings are that way because the artist is highly skilled and knowledgable."

There are no cookie cutter ways you do have to paint always aware of every little stroke you use, and what is happening. Richard Schmid really shows this in his DVD's how aware he is of every movement of his brushes.

That said I could have painted years before finding out all he has revealed in 3 days of my life. My mind is reeling and I will take some time to work it all out. I have commissions too right now so will be slow in painting some of this but with my notebook feel confident I can.

Johannes is training us to see, and with this we can keep on even if he is not here to guide us. One of the gifts of his teaching is to keep us from becoming dependent on him, we can however depend on the principals he's teaching which are awesome!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/103030-note_book_3326.jpg

winecountry
12-06-2010, 11:18 PM
This is one tip I think is not up here yet,

He drew a evergreen, saying in Nature it's about 40' high, so on 16x20 painting it is reduced to 6", so you cannot just copy the shape. he drew a 4 story condo next to the tree, saying if you look at a person on the first floor and one on the 4th floor, you cannot see each person in detail all at once, in the same way you can't see each branch on the whole 40' tree, on only a few in one place will be in focus, the rest will soften in your peripheral vision and not be all sharp and hard edged and detailed.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/103030-tree_and_condo.jpg

rugman
12-06-2010, 11:37 PM
Thanks again, Johannes!

Up to nine pages of notes.

"Learn to paint how the eye sees"- this phrase has stuck in my mind.

Cant wait to put all this knowledge into action!

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 12:38 AM
This was an incredible web seminar - thanks Johannes!!

A few things (of many!) that stuck in my mind:

1) The concept of applying the melodic lies everywhere: I sort of figured out the concept when applied against the background sky, but I never thought of applying it to other places, such as a long a shoreline, or along the BOTTOM of a group of trees. Very enlightening!

2) Breaking the "wall of trees!" Okay, I'm guilty of creating walls of trees at various times. Breaking them up via using the 1/3 or 2/3 rule (don't let the wall stretch solidly across the painting) and applying the melodic line to both the top and the bottom - by pulling trees forward (baby trees, etc.) was an eye-opener to me.

3) It was also very interesting to see how many photographs (even those of the most beautiful and "artistic" areas of the world - the Grand Tetons National Park) would not work if copied directly, regardless of one's ability to paint in ultra-detail. The fact is that that if the abstract shapes don't work, the painting falls apart, regardless of detail level.

4) All the little "traps" nature can throw at you: walls of trees, boring triangular hills, dull and repetitive Christmas-tree style conifers, and so on. Again, if you paint what the photo shows, you'll still end up with a boring painting.

5) An end to inky evergreens! Don't make your conifers black or "near black" or you just produce dead zones in the painting. Amazingly, some of the examples had conifers that were lighter in value than surrounding areas (catching low angle sunlight) and it worked well. So, there are more choices to evergreen color than "shades of black."

Brilliantly worded. You keyed on some of the most important factors is painting. Clyde refers to to those traps as nature throwing punches at him.
I'm sure now that this has sunk in your paintings will go up a notch.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 12:39 AM
thanks for taking the time to do this Johannes, this would have been my first art lesson since high school and you really opened my eyes to many facets of painting composition i wasn't aware of, musical harmony,assessing values, i will tune in again. unfortunately wasn't able to hear the other students questions? being not too good with the computer perhaps i messed up. no drawing today ,but this, will pick up sketch book in morning. again thank you, greg
No one hears each others questions. They type them in a window that you can bring up to see.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 12:43 AM
thanks for taking the time to do this Johannes, this would have been my first art lesson since high school and you really opened my eyes to many facets of painting composition i wasn't aware of, musical harmony,assessing values, i will tune in again. unfortunately wasn't able to hear the other students questions? being not too good with the computer perhaps i messed up. no drawing today ,but this, will pick up sketch book in morning.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/201483-DSCN1563.JPG again thank you, greg

This painting is a prime example of what I have been talking about. Look at the trees at the right behind the barn. See how they appear to be cloned? They have the same "belt size" and the concave negative shapes are identical. I will be giving a talk about buildings also from here to December 22. Stay tuned.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 12:51 AM
Tonight was quite a learning experience! You were very giving, as any true teacher is, and I appreciate that! So much to think about, not just about evergreen trees but about composition in general.

I work in watercolors, and although your examples were in oil, I'm hoping to "translate" what I am learning in your webinairs. Do you have any tips specifically for watercolors and what the watercolorist might have to pay particular attention to in the application of the principles you are teaching?

For example, here is one of my watercolors that contains evergreen trees in the landscape. Any suggestions about how I might have handled them better in watercolor?

Loved all the information about the melodic line and visual music too :)





Thanks again ever so much!!
Grainne

Will you be attending the session tomorrow. i would love to address this painting in photoshop and on mike. Meanwhile I will take some photos of my watercolors to show how to do some of these areas. My wife insists that I display my credentials but I hate to do it because I want my art work to talk not my awards but I will tell you anyhow. But she says people will believe you more if you do. So here it is. I have many years of experience in watercolor and have won the number one place in Mexico in 2000. The former Present of Mexico inaugurated one of my exhibitions. So yes I can offer you some good tips on watercolor.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 12:57 AM
Johannes, thank you! Tonight's class on evergreens solved a different problem - the problem painting I mentioned in my email. Here's the painting in its current iteration. I'm not going to rework it, I'm going to do another version of it from scratch since I doubt there's a quick and easy fix.

You've shown me tonight why it didn't win anything in the contest I entered it in. But that's okay, another painting of the same view is going to be so far beyond it that I might as well be a different guy. I can see a lot of the problems you talked about in this, but I'd like your eyes on it too. I think the shape of the hill with the cliff is boring and that I repeated the cliff rocks with that left brain evening-up problem... and when I think of the actual scene, I distorted it by doing so.

Attached in order are:

The watercolor preliminary version I did that everyone likes better than the pastel painting.

The pastel painting, current iteration, sitting on my corkboard for me to mull on it and see if I can do better.

The crop I made for composition

The reference photo I made the crop from, reduced to 800 pixels. It's actually 1200 and does have some detail.

It's a painting for the lady that helped us move, who grew up in the house on that cliff, done from her favorite lookout spot on Mt. Petit Jean. When I offered to do her a pastel painting, she was very definite about which view she wanted. She's now waited a year and a half for this return-gift for her incredible housewarming efforts for our family. I want to give her a painting truly professional in quality, which neither of these iterations is in my opinion. I've done tons better. I've even done better landscapes.

Thanks to tonight's lecture, I can understand some of where I went wrong with it. Lines that aren't musical and nothing to really point toward the focal point (her old house) other than contrast and sitting on the Rule of Three point. I also turned most of the trees into green meatballs all the same size. Yeesh, it's almost cloned!

All critique appreciated, from you and anyone else in this thread!

right off the bat the first thing that hit me was that you are dividing the painting almost in half diagonally so we have conflicting masses. One has to yield some territory.
Also follow or better yet draw a line over the side of the hill and see if you have a melodic line, if not create one. Look for the swedish meatballs the left brain produces. Also a gradation of value starting from the bottom corner and gradually getting lighter as it rounds off will convey a more three dimensional look.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 01:03 AM
Even though I arrived quite late I still got nearly 2 hours of wonderful information. Thank you for being so generous with your time and knowledge Johannes.

You again expressed your desire that more people post for critiques and questions. The reason for holding back has been that I'm a beginner and haven't really done much, and also I'm primarily interested in drawing, at least for the foreseeable future. However 90% of what you are teaching us is just as relevant for drawings as it is for paintings. Heck, much of what you are talking about would be relevant to many subjects, not just representational landscape.

I'm currently working up a "design" for my next drawing and did this sketch of a winter scene, so in the interest of participating instead of just lurking I'm posting it and would like your opinion of it's design;



Thanks

David

If drawing is what you like for landscapes I recommend two books:
Drawing Landscapes in Pencil by Ferdinand Petrie and Landscape Drawing by Frank Rines.
If you bring this up in the session at the beginning I will give you some tips on how to render the shapes in pencil.

skappy
12-07-2010, 01:49 AM
Thanks Johannes I joined in last night great infos, as Donna I lost the sound at the end.
It is great to be reminded stuff we tend to forget or not apply thoroughly the way you demonstrate it give it more sense.

I just thought about it , there is a software called IshowU that allows you to film your screen It works both on Mac and PC , maybe that can interest you Johannes or some of us If you do not mind that we do record your tuition . It is very easy to use, you just choose the size of the window you want to record and press the record button [do not forget to press STOP at the end:lol: it ll fill up you disk quickly as video takes a lot of space]
For the sound source you can use in the app preferences built in micro or line the micro ll gives you the sound of you presence and the echo from the room mixed with the actual sound, the line will record directly from you CP sound card
I ll make a test during the day to check the disk space used by the minute I suggest you do it on an external disk now you can get a 2000 Gigas for a hunded dollars or so great for backups BTW [Backups save tears]

I bet there are other softs that do the same thing
If you need advise you can PM me

I think the most important is that Johannes Agrees the fact some ll record it FOR PERSONAL USE
Robert:cat: :wave:

PS I just did a test I choose a window size aout the sme size as I remember it showed on the screen preference 30 frames per second quality very good [not maximum] sound 44,1 k [cd quality] to record one minute it took 6Mo disk space. so four hours will be 1.44 giga less than what I thought:)
to reduce the disk space used you can lower the sound to 22K you ll not even notice the difference as it is not a violin concerto you can also recuce the frame rate to 15 per second as in Laurel and Hardy movies:wink2: this ll divide the volume of the file by two and you ll get the same info:angel:

Johannes I suggest that you record it you never know? you can edit it and publish it:thumbsup:
Robert:cat:

winecountry
12-07-2010, 04:15 AM
this is a first attempt at dry brushing foliage. I didn't go for comp just a study of these two trees one dead, one alive, both California live oaks along a small seasonal watershed.

including the ref, cormorants love to sit on the dead one and dry off.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/103030-laguna_de_santa_rosa__oil3331.jpg



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/103030-laguna_de_santa_rosa_trees3329.jpg

Davkin
12-07-2010, 09:29 AM
If drawing is what you like for landscapes I recommend two books:
Drawing Landscapes in Pencil by Ferdinand Petrie and Landscape Drawing by Frank Rines.
If you bring this up in the session at the beginning I will give you some tips on how to render the shapes in pencil.

I already have the Petrie book, I'll look out for the Rines book. I also have the Diane Wright book, I really like her stuff as well.

Unfortunately I'm at work until 6:00 pm EST, so I'll miss about the first 1 1/2 hours. I'm not even sure I can ask questions, I don't see any of the chat from the other attendees in the chat window.

David

Grainne
12-07-2010, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by grainne
Tonight was quite a learning experience! You were very giving, as any true teacher is, and I appreciate that! So much to think about, not just about evergreen trees but about composition in general.

I work in watercolors, and although your examples were in oil, I'm hoping to "translate" what I am learning in your webinairs. Do you have any tips specifically for watercolors and what the watercolorist might have to pay particular attention to in the application of the principles you are teaching?

For example, here is one of my watercolors that contains evergreen trees in the landscape. Any suggestions about how I might have handled them better in watercolor?

Loved all the information about the melodic line and visual music too



Will you be attending the session tomorrow. i would love to address this painting in photoshop and on mike. Meanwhile I will take some photos of my watercolors to show how to do some of these areas. My wife insists that I display my credentials but I hate to do it because I want my art work to talk not my awards but I will tell you anyhow. But she says people will believe you more if you do. So here it is. I have many years of experience in watercolor and have won the number one place in Mexico in 2000. The former Present of Mexico inaugurated one of my exhibitions. So yes I can offer you some good tips on watercolor.


I'll be there, and eager to learn! Although I will have to figure out how to ask questions . . .

Grainne

Dougwas
12-07-2010, 10:11 AM
David- You don't see comments and questions from others. Only Johannes sees them. Just type a question in the box and hit send and he sees them right away.

Doug

oldradagast
12-07-2010, 10:31 AM
Here's a screen capture most of the way through the "breaking up the wall of trees" part of the webinar. The original photo - despite being taken in a very beautiful area of the world - had a terrible wall of trees straight across it AND lacked any harmonic line across the bottom of the row of trees. So, your eye crashes into the tree barrier and the viewer is left disappointed. Even with perfect detail, the original photo would have produced a doomed painting.

Johannes then showed how to break up the wall of trees, and it was rather amazing since, in an instant, as he added the melodic line to the bottom of the tree row, everything suddenly popped into 3-D. Depth was added so quickly where there was none before.

Take a look at the attached photo that has been tweaked by Johannes to have a proper melodic line along the tree row. Also notice how he pushed back the left 1/3 of the tree grouping so now the "wall of trees" is broken. Finally, the boring, staight edges of the often triangular hills have also been broken up.

Very useful information, especially since the "wall of trees" tends to show up everywhere in nature (not just in evergreens) as do dull, triangular hills.

Technical Note: Hitting "Print Screen" on a Windows computer will actually capture the screen image. It can then be Pasted into Microsoft Paint and saved as a standard image file (JPG, BMP, whatever.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/153201-breaking_the_wall_of_trees.JPG

oldradagast
12-07-2010, 10:43 AM
One more thing I forgot to mention as another interesting lesson learned from yesterday:

Handling Dead Evergreens: Careful placement of a few dead evergreens in a forest helps break up the abstract shape and add interest to the mass. Of particular note was the proper placement of branches on a dead evergreen: the upper region of the tree should be mostly bare of branches and - surprisingly - the dead evergreens look better when nearly all of the remaining branches are on one side of the tree.

Johannes had a demo of this, where he started with a photo of a dead evergreen tree. It looked decent, but not particularly artistic. Then, he removed nearly all of the branches from one side, and it suddenly "popped" - it looked much better and more artistic. I'm not really sure *why* this works, but it does work, so we should keep it in mind.

Johannes: would the same theory apply to dead broad-leafed trees? Also, if you have a several dead conifers in a painting, should some variety be applied to which side gets to keep its branches? I'm guessing "yes" is the answer to that one, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks!

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 10:57 AM
Thanks for a great evening of instruction Johannes. Learned a lot about shapes and how to make them more INTERESTING!!!!

Here is a recent painting, and some changes I did in Photoshop based on what I learned tonight. I know they help the piece quite a bit; is there anything else I should do?

Thanks!


Can you make it to the webinar session tonight? It's easier for me to tell you on the mike and illustrate it.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 10:59 AM
Thanks Johannes I joined in last night great infos, as Donna I lost the sound at the end.
It is great to be reminded stuff we tend to forget or not apply thoroughly the way you demonstrate it give it more sense.

I just thought about it , there is a software called IshowU that allows you to film your screen It works both on Mac and PC , maybe that can interest you Johannes or some of us If you do not mind that we do record your tuition . It is very easy to use, you just choose the size of the window you want to record and press the record button [do not forget to press STOP at the end:lol: it ll fill up you disk quickly as video takes a lot of space]
For the sound source you can use in the app preferences built in micro or line the micro ll gives you the sound of you presence and the echo from the room mixed with the actual sound, the line will record directly from you CP sound card
I ll make a test during the day to check the disk space used by the minute I suggest you do it on an external disk now you can get a 2000 Gigas for a hunded dollars or so great for backups BTW [Backups save tears]

I bet there are other softs that do the same thing
If you need advise you can PM me

I think the most important is that Johannes Agrees the fact some ll record it FOR PERSONAL USE
Robert:cat: :wave:

PS I just did a test I choose a window size aout the sme size as I remember it showed on the screen preference 30 frames per second quality very good [not maximum] sound 44,1 k [cd quality] to record one minute it took 6Mo disk space. so four hours will be 1.44 giga less than what I thought:)
to reduce the disk space used you can lower the sound to 22K you ll not even notice the difference as it is not a violin concerto you can also recuce the frame rate to 15 per second as in Laurel and Hardy movies:wink2: this ll divide the volume of the file by two and you ll get the same info:angel:

Johannes I suggest that you record it you never know? you can edit it and publish it:thumbsup:
Robert:cat:

There is a recording option that I have already in the webinar program. Im waiting to see if wetcanvas can host these videos.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 11:03 AM
this is a first attempt at dry brushing foliage. I didn't go for comp just a study of these two trees one dead, one alive, both California live oaks along a small seasonal watershed.

including the ref, cormorants love to sit on the dead one and dry off.



I will be glad to comment on this during the webinar. It is much easier than typing it all out and I can single things out with the cursor. I can see already some improvments.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 11:12 AM
I already have the Petrie book, I'll look out for the Rines book. I also have the Diane Wright book, I really like her stuff as well.

Unfortunately I'm at work until 6:00 pm EST, so I'll miss about the first 1 1/2 hours. I'm not even sure I can ask questions, I don't see any of the chat from the other attendees in the chat window.

David
Yeah Diane's drawing are nice but she needs to think more abstractly, meaning fewer symetrical shapes as seen in her rocks. She also needs to create more melodic lines. Think less in realism and more in interesting designs. By the way removing values 1, 9 & 10 do not apply to pencil drawings. Ignore all that because you dont have color to rely on. You need all those 10 values. You must get the book, "Drawing with the Artist's Brain" by Carl Purcell. He draws more abstractly. His shapes are more pleasing.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 11:23 AM
One more thing I forgot to mention as another interesting lesson learned from yesterday:

Handling Dead Evergreens: Careful placement of a few dead evergreens in a forest helps break up the abstract shape and add interest to the mass. Of particular note was the proper placement of branches on a dead evergreen: the upper region of the tree should be mostly bare of branches and - surprisingly - the dead evergreens look better when nearly all of the remaining branches are on one side of the tree.

Johannes had a demo of this, where he started with a photo of a dead evergreen tree. It looked decent, but not particularly artistic. Then, he removed nearly all of the branches from one side, and it suddenly "popped" - it looked much better and more artistic. I'm not really sure *why* this works, but it does work, so we should keep it in mind.

Johannes: would the same theory apply to dead broad-leafed trees? Also, if you have a several dead conifers in a painting, should some variety be applied to which side gets to keep its branches? I'm guessing "yes" is the answer to that one, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks!

Because any line you add becomes a visual pointer it would be recommendable to aim these into the painting and if possible to point to the focal point. The dead brown conifer you are mentioning should not be placed in the "no fly zone" . Anything that can stand out should be avoided in the no fly zone. Keep them in the inner boundries of the painting.

crazywoman53
12-07-2010, 11:26 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/137465-137465_A-Day-at-the-Bay.jpg

Johannes, Thank you so much for sharing your time and knowledge with us last night. You turned on so many light bulbs I came away feeling like a Christmas tree. I post an image of a pastel painting I started back in Oct. Painting is 9 x 12 inches. I was unhappy with the way it turned out and after last night I now understand why a little more. I see that I lost my melodic line at the base of the trees when I put in shadows there and also the tops of the trees especially on the left side are in need of changes.The original ref had a wall of trees and I cropped the left side. I also think the masses possible need some adjusting?? The ref photo which I do not have, had two white buildings at the base of the trees. I originally was going to put one in and then decided not to. Now I am wondering if that addition would help with the scale of this painting when seems to be part of it's problem. There is nothing to tell if the trees are 30 feet or 3 feet. I have been so frustrated with this painting I have set it aside. I would greatly appreciate your comments on it.

I also was unable to figure out how to post questions. I clicked on a few things and thought I lost the whole session for a min so was afraid to keep clicking. My first experience with something like this. If someone could tell me where you type the question I would appreciate that as well.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 11:53 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/137465-137465_A-Day-at-the-Bay.jpg

Johannes, Thank you so much for sharing your time and knowledge with us last night. You turned on so many light bulbs I came away feeling like a Christmas tree. I post an image of a pastel painting I started back in Oct. Painting is 9 x 12 inches. I was unhappy with the way it turned out and after last night I now understand why a little more. I see that I lost my melodic line at the base of the trees when I put in shadows there and also the tops of the trees especially on the left side are in need of changes.The original ref had a wall of trees and I cropped the left side. I also think the masses possible need some adjusting?? The ref photo which I do not have, had two white buildings at the base of the trees. I originally was going to put one in and then decided not to. Now I am wondering if that addition would help with the scale of this painting when seems to be part of it's problem. There is nothing to tell if the trees are 30 feet or 3 feet. I have been so frustrated with this painting I have set it aside. I would greatly appreciate your comments on it.

I also was unable to figure out how to post questions. I clicked on a few things and thought I lost the whole session for a min so was afraid to keep clicking. My first experience with something like this. If someone could tell me where you type the question I would appreciate that as well.

Actually your painting is better then you think. yes it could use a few adjustments but in this case I feel you are too hard on yourself. Will you attend tonight's session? It is less work and I can say much more on the mike. I am a two fingers typer. LOL

crazywoman53
12-07-2010, 12:00 PM
Yes, I will be there for tonights session. I have to stay after work, because it starts the last hour I am here so it is hit and miss that first hour but if I drive home afterwards then I miss even more. Good thing the boss doesn't mind me staying here after hours! I am looking forward to the class.

robertsloan2
12-07-2010, 12:08 PM
Johannes, thank you! That's brilliant. Yep, I can see that division of space is what makes the watercolor preliminary painting look so much better than the pastel preliminary painting. When I looked at the reference, I had a better melodic line in the reference than in the paintings, both of them. In this case, if I go truer to the reference and then exaggerate those bumps and jigs just a bit more, it'll come out both accurate and more beautiful.

I want the one Barbara gets to be so good people think she got it in a gallery. With these changes, I think I'll succeed. I'm going back to the planning stage with it because the division of space is so basic. Also if I push the focal point back farther and don't zoom in on it, I don't have to worry about trying to get the little house on the cliff accurate beyond what I could see or capture with the photo.

I've also noticed that the more often I paint something from one of my own photos, the easier it is to remember what it looked like at the time I took the photo. Is that something natural, that as you learn to see better your visual memory improves even for things you saw before you knew how to paint/draw that well?

Also, I'd like to thank everyone else who posted notes and images from Johannes's class. Many important things I remembered are now a lot clearer to me and easier to remember for when I settle down to use all this!

Thanks for starting this thread and discussion. I'm looking forward to tonight's class. I love getting these crazy leaps of skill where overnight everything looks different and everything I did before is flawed. It even affects everything else I do.

The concept of melodic lines articulates something I was intuitively doing in novel pacing, chapter lengths and types of incidents in a long story. Everything about balance and composition applies to emphasis in a story too, so this is improving my writing skills as well.

I thought I had too many bison hunts in my novel. What I can do to rebalance that is to make sure each of them is different - one with an emphasis on the basic process, one that's more about how they divide the meat, one that's long and difficult, one that's tragic for a hunter. Like making individual pines tall or fat or thin or dead, varying my bison hunts enough will keep me from boring my readers. If I think of my plot as something like an abstract picture, I can group scenes by type into masses and make sure the theme of the book gets emphasized.

deanster04
12-07-2010, 12:13 PM
You were right drawing trees with a mouse is not easy:envy:
trying to get different shapes,sizes and colors

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/75724-Untitled-2.jpg

Davkin
12-07-2010, 12:38 PM
Yeah Diane's drawing are nice but she needs to think more abstractly, meaning fewer symetrical shapes as seen in her rocks. She also needs to create more melodic lines. Think less in realism and more in interesting designs. By the way removing values 1, 9 & 10 do not apply to pencil drawings. Ignore all that because you dont have color to rely on. You need all those 10 values. You must get the book, "Drawing with the Artist's Brain" by Carl Purcell. He draws more abstractly. His shapes are more pleasing.

Yes, I understand Diane's style is a little more on the "quaint" side but some of her techniques are useful to learn. I also understood that I can't get away without the darks. I've done two drawings recently, one where I didn't really use 9 & 10 much, (or even 7 & 8 for that matter) and the more recent one I did use 9 & 10 alot as well as a fair amount of 1. I thought the previous drawing was pretty good, but now with the two drawings placed side by side I'm actually a little embarrassed of the previous one and it's largely the greater use of darks that made the difference. I do have Carl Purcell's book as well and have read the first half about drawing but I still need to do some of the exercises.

David

Dougwas
12-07-2010, 01:01 PM
I spent a couple of hours last night studying some of Clyde Aspevig's paintings while checking my notes. It's all there. Everything Johannes has taught us. I feel I am looking at paintings differently now. Johannes has opened my eyes and I am starting to know why I will like a painting.

Tonight, I plan on studying Johannes' paintings.


Doug

Colorix
12-07-2010, 01:10 PM
I don't have words for how fantastic I think this is, Johannes, thank you so much!

I've started a study trying to handle fir-tree lines...

Meanwhile, here's one where I did some work on 'redecorating' the far shore, It was a straight line, with two bands of colour: trees and reeds. It started life as a plein air, but this is the studio version. Skyholes are not as bright in reality. Anyhow, it felt too horizontal + vertical, so I broke in some sky, and distanced the far shore. And then I wondered why it didn't work...

I see some neat clones of meatballs in the far tree... And melodic lines... :music: well... "can't carry a tune"... yet!

Hebe, pastel, ca 16x12

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/117343-Hebe-bright-ChHerczfeld.jpg

Michaelmcg
12-07-2010, 02:56 PM
Here's a 14" x 18" plein air I did earlier this year. Sold it off the easel, and since it's unlikely that the buyer is watching, feel free to critique it. I can already see a lot of things I would do very differently if doing it again. The two things which jump out at me are the missed opportunities for "melodic" lines along the left riverbank and along the tree line - and yes the left brain was working overtime when painting those trees!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/115446-CIMG5555a1.jpg

Michael

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 02:59 PM
I don't have words for how fantastic I think this is, Johannes, thank you so much!

I've started a study trying to handle fir-tree lines...

Meanwhile, here's one where I did some work on 'redecorating' the far shore, It was a straight line, with two bands of colour: trees and reeds. It started life as a plein air, but this is the studio version. Skyholes are not as bright in reality. Anyhow, it felt too horizontal + vertical, so I broke in some sky, and distanced the far shore. And then I wondered why it didn't work...

I see some neat clones of meatballs in the far tree... And melodic lines... :music: well... "can't carry a tune"... yet!

Hebe, pastel, ca 16x12

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/117343-Hebe-bright-ChHerczfeld.jpg

Are you coming into the webinar tonight? This is a delicious painting but I'd like to give you a few pointers.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 03:02 PM
Yes, I understand Diane's style is a little more on the "quaint" side but some of her techniques are useful to learn. I also understood that I can't get away without the darks. I've done two drawings recently, one where I didn't really use 9 & 10 much, (or even 7 & 8 for that matter) and the more recent one I did use 9 & 10 alot as well as a fair amount of 1. I thought the previous drawing was pretty good, but now with the two drawings placed side by side I'm actually a little embarrassed of the previous one and it's largely the greater use of darks that made the difference. I do have Carl Purcell's book as well and have read the first half about drawing but I still need to do some of the exercises.

David
Hold on! Maybe you misunderstood me. I mean you NEED to rely on those darks because you dont have color to show planes. So feel free to use 8,9 & 10 values in pencil drawing. However I would recommend that overall the drawing should end up in a predominant mid value.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 03:05 PM
Here's a 14" x 18" plein air I did earlier this year. Sold it off the easel, and since it's unlikely that the buyer is watching, feel free to critique it. I can already see a lot of things I would do very differently if doing it again. The two things which jump out at me are the missed opportunities for "melodic" lines along the left riverbank and along the tree line - and yes the left brain was working overtime when painting those trees!


Michael
Michael you have a knack for simplifying things and putting ideas into words. Again waht you are seeing is correct. If you create more melodic lines along the trees the sky shape will become more interesting. Always view each section in your paintings as abstract shapes and as such make them interesting. You will be way ahead of the game when you do that.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 03:09 PM
Here's a 14" x 18" plein air I did earlier this year. Sold it off the easel, and since it's unlikely that the buyer is watching, feel free to critique it. I can already see a lot of things I would do very differently if doing it again. The two things which jump out at me are the missed opportunities for "melodic" lines along the left riverbank and along the tree line - and yes the left brain was working overtime when painting those trees!



Michael

You have an ability to immediately put into practice what you learn. You are right again just like you word things so well. The tree tops need a more melodic line which in return will create a better shape in the sky. Visualize your whole painting like a puzzle in which you snap in abstract shapes. When you do that you will be way ahead in the game.

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 03:10 PM
Yes, I will be there for tonights session. I have to stay after work, because it starts the last hour I am here so it is hit and miss that first hour but if I drive home afterwards then I miss even more. Good thing the boss doesn't mind me staying here after hours! I am looking forward to the class.

Just let me know when you come in to talk about it ok?

Johannes Instructor
12-07-2010, 03:20 PM
Tonight's topic starting at 5 PM EST! All you need to know about skies:

Click on this link to access the room
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/186041342

Above is the link to the webinar.
About the first half hour though I will talk about some paintings that were posted in the thread.

Davkin
12-07-2010, 03:34 PM
Hold on! Maybe you misunderstood me. I mean you NEED to rely on those darks because you dont have color to show planes. So feel free to use 8,9 & 10 values in pencil drawing. However I would recommend that overall the drawing should end up in a predominant mid value.

I think I understood you, I just failed to communicate properly myself. :) The drawing is still predominately mid value, but without darks a drawing ends up looking very flat, which is now what my previous drawing looks to me.

David

Colorix
12-07-2010, 04:03 PM
Johannes, I'll be there, and I'd be delighted if you'd give advice! Since I made it, I've been working on getting better transitional colours.

I see the negative shapes do line up. The far ('farthest') reeds meet water in too straight line. The low tree/bush echos the line of the statue's back, giving a rectangular oblong negative shape. Tree is 'hollow', not umbrealla shaped. Limbs, trunks not lost/found, do not get paler as they go up. The low boxwood 'hedge' is very regular and dark at the lower left. Etc, etc...

Would you say something more about *why* to avoid points (as you showed with Aspevig's mountain and lake towards the end of yesterday's session), where you showed how to avoid making points in the lake? Also, you yourself work a lot with what some call 'lead ins', will you mention that in any session?

I'm working on hills with pines, not showable yet.

smad3
12-07-2010, 04:44 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/89075-TofinoHarbour.jpgI see a couple of issues with this after taking part in the seminar.
Near shore does not provide much of a melody and the separation in the tree tops is too similar.
I would appreciatre advice on any other areas of concern.
thank you.
Stephen

SonyaJ
12-07-2010, 04:53 PM
Johannes - looking forward to this afternoon/evenings meeting :). The amount of information I got from the past two sessions has been hugely helpful, and going back through some of my recent paintings, some of the issues you brought up became really obvious. It was like a light bulb went off.

I don't know if it's too late to add this recent painting in for consideration during your talk today, but I'd love feedback on it. This is a slightly re-worked version of the one I posted on my blog last week, but before I listened to any lectures.

I was working in pastels for about a year, but decided it was time to do oils as well, and am teaching myself oil landscapes by starting with a road trip series through the Four Corners region. So, this is my 45th oil painting.

What I liked about the reference was the asymmetry of the trees - something I love about cottonwoods anyway. And, believe it or not, I went to efforts to make the patches of sand have "melodic lines", even before I was familiar with the concept.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/187416-tes-neh-iah-cottonwood.jpg
Tes Neh Iah Cottonwood
11x14 oil on canvas panel

Any suggestions for things to adjust or correct would be great!

Michaelmcg
12-07-2010, 05:18 PM
You've been talking about buildings this evening, Johannes. Here's a street scene I did recently outside a gallery hosting a solo show of mine (just to get people in - we've got to hustle huh!). I don't usually do streets scenes, so this is way outside my comfort zone - any critique most welcome.

Michael

Colorix
12-07-2010, 05:38 PM
It is running, Paula, hope you've gotten in.

Michaelmcg
12-07-2010, 05:44 PM
Here's another one with some evergreen trees. Feel free to critique,
Johannes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2010/115446-P1000494b.jpg

Michael

Paula Ford
12-07-2010, 05:45 PM
It is running, Paula, hope you've gotten in.

Yes I got in Charlie. My firewall was preventing it for some reason. Thanks!

Esmeralinda
12-07-2010, 09:18 PM
What an incredible art session this was :thumbsup: Thank you so very much Johannes ! You share such enthusiasm and energy ! I have learnt a great deal in a few hours. Merci beaucoup ! :heart:

robertsloan2
12-07-2010, 09:37 PM
Johannes, thank you so much for these lessons! They run long but cover so much material, it's great! Tonight reinforced so many things you mentioned before that I understood but hadn't really seen or wasn't sure of, as well as some new tricks like violet flowers on green grass. I will have to put some in the next time I've got a spring or summer scene!

Here's my first four pages of notes:


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-46.jpg
Tonight's class with Johannes Vloothuis started with critiques and the whole four hour session became critiques that helped me understand so many things.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-47.jpg
Last night he mentioned the "No Fly Zone." Tonight, now I understand what it is. The area not to put anything too interesting. I think it's proportional to the size of the painting, on an ACEO it'd be about 1/4" or 3/8".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-48.jpg
This page, he critiqued a painting by Colorix that I love, showing improvements. I was stunned. It had looked perfect to me, probably because the problems were so minor relative to its strong points.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-49.jpg
I am definitely going to try this - paint in plein air while only looking at the focal point of the scene I'm doing. Try to get everything else in by guess with peripheral vision. I could probably try it even working from a photo if I blow it up big on my screen.

robertsloan2
12-07-2010, 09:50 PM
Four more pages of notes. Tonight was intense. I'll try to keep them a bit more concise from now on, otherwise I'll just fill up this sketchbook that quick!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-50.jpg
More elaboration on how to keep the focal area interesting (and not drag the viewer out of the painting).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-51.jpg
Some important, interesting design tips most of which I have not run into in any books I've read. Balancing front to back is new for me but completely makes sense. I usually just try to push things back so there is some depth, but now I can see why I do. If that makes any sense.

If all the cool stuff is in the foreground, then why bother with a background and not just give it a short field of interest? If all the good stuff's deep in the back, there at least needs to be some cool things to point toward it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-52.jpg
More tips on doing buildings. Also on dealing with edges like shorelines and sharp-angled corners. Johannes Vloorthuis tries to break up any V shape anywhere, at any angle. Also any obvious too-simple geometric forms in favor of melodic lines that can include overlapping things of similar value or flaws or any irregularity.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-53.jpg
The answer to my question on seascapes. One answer was very simple - if the horizon is that straight and the painting is far out at sea, soften it and fog it up. Other examples had waves nearer the viewer break it up even if there's no land. Or heavy surf if it's near the shore. Rocks out in the water can be moved to break the horizon. So there's a lot of ways to do it. Even something that by definition becomes a flat horizon line can be broken up with something cool.

I had never made the connection that good seascapes I liked didn't have that hard flat horizon. So many reference photos of the sea do that I thought that's just how it is, part of what's there. But weather can break it up.

Thank you for giving us your time, skill and attention, Johannes. My eyes are opening every day now and it's incredible.

I'm now rather glad Ms. Barbara hasn't seen the preliminary versions of her painting yet. Once I do the real one, they'll be laughable.

SonyaJ
12-07-2010, 10:01 PM
More great information passed on in this evening's lecture, with much of it spent critiquing paintings posted here and emailed directly to Johannes. I've always found such critiques to be extremely useful, even when not of my own work. So, it was great to see his suggestions for handling paintings in different styles and media.

A big no-no that I'm guilty of doing in many of my paintings is putting some clutter in the immediate foreground...usually shrubs or grass clumps or something. So, avoid have anything rising up from the bottom edge of the canvas - it is never a good thing! For me, it was a) because it was there :o , and b) because I wasn't sure how to resolve the foreground without said foliage there. I'll use the excuse that most of the paintings I did this in were small and relatively quick studies :lol:. It's definitely something I will be mindful of in future paintings.

-keep detail out of the "no fly zone" along the periphery, and remove or really de-emphasize objects that are there.

-when painting in oils, consider using the edge of a business or credit card to apply paint to form thin branches

-consider removing green from your palette, esp. for winter scenes, and definitely ditch the yellow-greens for winter. Blue-greens or burnt sienna-based earthy colors are more harmonious with snow.

-More emphasis on harmonic lines, interesting and abstracted shapes, and getting rid of triangles and other shapes that are boring or lead the eye out of the painting

-in figure painting [using Charlie's painting as an example of what works], avoid placing the figure in the middle, and make sure the distances between subject and top, bottom and sides are all different.

Those are a few things off the top of my head. I look forward to incorporating these into my future paintings.

Thank you again, Johannes, for all the time you put in for these webinars :) . The information is invaluable, and I'm sure I speak for everyone in attendance that we are grateful for your generosity in sharing this information.

I'll look forward to all the upcoming events I can attend :thumbsup: .

Grainne
12-07-2010, 10:03 PM
Incredible notes, Robert! Thanks for sharing them! Mine are not nearly so organized and so visual!


Grainne

Grainne
12-07-2010, 10:09 PM
Johannes, what a wealth of instruction and information you are giving us so generously! It doesn't get much better than this :) The hours just fly by!
Your skill with the computer in illustrating your analysis makes everything so clear, and your examples, anecdotes and analogies are so entertaining, as well as instructive. I think you had everyone in the "room" on a painterly high tonight :)

Thank you!!!

Grainne

oldradagast
12-07-2010, 10:13 PM
Thanks to Johannes for these lectures and for the folks here for sharing their notes.

No point in restating what has already been said, but I think the biggest surprise for me was the importance of avoiding clutter in the foreground.

There is such a strong temptation to clutter that area to "add interest" and "hey, it's the foreground - it's supposed to have a lot of random details there." While foregrounds in photos may be cluttered, it is a big "no-no" to have a cluttered foreground in a painting. As Johannes said, a cluttered foreground would make sense - if the painting was about you looking down at your shoes! Since that's rarely the subject of a painting, keep it simple and let the eye flow back into the scene.

winecountry
12-08-2010, 12:12 AM
Roberts note say and show it all, very distilled and clear.... so no need to add more from me:lol:

He has sessions planned until Dec 22, at 3-4 hours per session hope I last out, it will be the last class I'll need in landscape for sure, and finding things that apply to portraits too, major concepts work for any painting, and find I'm seeing every work in a different way now

skappy
12-08-2010, 02:13 AM
Thanks Johannes for the nice lecture I really learnt a lot to bad I could nt stay to the end due to time diference I ll check at he others notes Robert'S seems well illustrated and accurate from what I have seen
Robert:cat:

edtree
12-08-2010, 04:06 AM
Robert Slone - Your notes are beautiful AND informative. Thanks so much for taking the time to do these, and post them! I'm looking forward to seeing your revision of Ms Barbara's painting! :)

Thanks Johannes! I was in attendance for the last couple of hours only but it was great stuff as usual. I enjoyed your critiques especially - very helpful to see what works and what doesn't in others' paintings and most importantly...WHY.

Elizabeth

appydax
12-08-2010, 05:19 AM
Robert, can I copy your notes please :wink2:
Missed all but the Tuesday one as I just found out about it.
Didn't take notes last night, but after seeing yours I realized just how
much I need to. Wow, after reading the latest I could instantly remember
those points......you are so visual in your note taking :thumbsup:

Thank you once again Johannes.

Sharron

Colorix
12-08-2010, 05:42 AM
Robert, you're a gem!

Statue: If I got it right, there could have been more value shifts on the statue, to help shape the cylindrical form. Reflected colour, yes, but it is also reflected Light. Just as in the flowerpot reflected light to the right in your notes.

Depth-balance: I've just started to discover that it was used, before Modernism. Remember the 'steelyard'... it can be in back-to-front too (that was an eye-opener).

Other artists to look at, recommended by Johannes:
Pickering, for seascapes
Scott Christensen (sp?)
Paul Strisik

Hedges: Desaturate at edge of canvas/paper, saturate where you want interest, like entrance gap.

Get the feeling of a place, not the look of it.

dollardays
12-08-2010, 07:11 AM
Thanks once again to Johannes for the webinar and to the artists here willing to share their notes- I feel like I am in art school - learning stuff I never picked up before. Johannes critiqued my barn painting and I fixed it based on many suggestions- the only thing I can't do at this point is move it to the left so there is room on the right for the light to enter. But I have posted the before and after and you can see the huge improvement. I will do a studio painting of it at a later date.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2010/3589-September-Barn-before-after.jpg

Esmeralinda
12-08-2010, 07:55 AM
Thank you for those notes, Robert ! Such help as mine were not so clear this morning :D
Johannes, I will try to attend as many as possible :thumbsup:

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 09:52 AM
Thanks once again to Johannes for the webinar and to the artists here willing to share their notes- I feel like I am in art school - learning stuff I never picked up before. Johannes critiqued my barn painting and I fixed it based on many suggestions- the only thing I can't do at this point is move it to the left so there is room on the right for the light to enter. But I have posted the before and after and you can see the huge improvement. I will do a studio painting of it at a later date.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2010/3589-September-Barn-before-after.jpg

Now that's better! Im sure you are more pleased with it. Soften the edges of your evergreens so they recede.

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 09:55 AM
Robert I read your notes carefully. Not one concept is misquoted.

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 10:01 AM
Here's another one with some evergreen trees. Feel free to critique,
Johannes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2010/115446-P1000494b.jpg

Michael

Michael I really like this piece. Especially the left side. That is yummy. Many times artists try to fit things in a box. This is because we grow up in a world where things are not cropped but become faint in our peripheal vision.
Look at the modification below where I cropped off some of those evergreens. When it comes to cropping think out of the box. Also the symetrical triangle of the grass clump was removed.

crazywoman53
12-08-2010, 10:23 AM
Thanks Johannes for all your information last night. The information is so valuable. Robert your notes are SOOOOO much better than the ones I took, Mine say the same thing but no one here would be able to read them with the clearity yours provided. Guess I need to redo mine. Also thanks to the different artists who were willing to share their work to be critiqued. I'll definately be working on mine come this weekend.

antgeek
12-08-2010, 10:36 AM
Unfortunately will be working during most of these seminars (west coast usa) but the couple I caught on the W/e were amazing! Johannes, I hope W/c will be able to host the recordings as you mentioned. The notes posted in this thread are tremendously helpful; Robert Sloan is a real standout there! I have rated this thread 5 stars; it deserves to be in the stickies.

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 10:53 AM
Thanks to Johannes for these lectures and for the folks here for sharing their notes.

No point in restating what has already been said, but I think the biggest surprise for me was the importance of avoiding clutter in the foreground.

There is such a strong temptation to clutter that area to "add interest" and "hey, it's the foreground - it's supposed to have a lot of random details there." While foregrounds in photos may be cluttered, it is a big "no-no" to have a cluttered foreground in a painting. As Johannes said, a cluttered foreground would make sense - if the painting was about you looking down at your shoes! Since that's rarely the subject of a painting, keep it simple and let the eye flow back into the scene.

I just visualized that - thought it'd be fun to do a painting looking down at my feet. Then realized that the "No fly zone" would be around the heels of my shoes and still there, the lower edge of the painting would not get the most emphasis and the cool stuff like the toes of my boots would be up around where the middle ground usually is.

It works even if you're painting what's down between your shoes.

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 10:58 AM
Thanks once again to Johannes for the webinar and to the artists here willing to share their notes- I feel like I am in art school - learning stuff I never picked up before. Johannes critiqued my barn painting and I fixed it based on many suggestions- the only thing I can't do at this point is move it to the left so there is room on the right for the light to enter. But I have posted the before and after and you can see the huge improvement. I will do a studio painting of it at a later date.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2010/3589-September-Barn-before-after.jpg

Wow! Definitely vast improvement! I liked it before but this is stunning. I'd love to see you do a studio version with the added space to the right now that you've done this, it's gorgeous.

Johannes, every critique you did last night taught me something wonderful. Especially when you critiqued people who paint better than I do, it's giving me huge leaps ahead.

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 11:19 AM
Robert I read your notes carefully. Not one concept is misquoted.

Thank you! Both for giving these classes and for critiquing my notes. I have to paraphrase sometimes for space and usually get ideas for my own examples, so knowing that I've got it right helps me so much.

This morning I felt self conscious about posting eight pages of notes, but not any more. So many people are finding them useful that I'll go on posting them after every session. Sketching and jotting them helps me assimilate more of the information. When I do that, I think it sticks in a different part of my brain.

A lot of what you're demonstrating is right brain stuff. I think my right brain learns too though, some of these things are not obvious even if I zone out completely into right brain thinking.

I'm also finally getting how even in a portrait or a landscape that has to be a portrait of a landmark, so many elements can change including the light and emphasis. I didn't copy your demonstration of the elderly man's portrait because that was familiar from my portrait sketching days, one of the things I did intuitively.

I was trying to get the likeness of elderly tourists with pastels in only half an hour or so (the average patience of a tourist for a sitting). So I'd try to get in all the wrinkles but had to choose the most important ones and worked with pastels - a blunt instrument. That made my wrinkles looser and I'd choose a value that wasn't too far from the face, not the deep crease value because a broad swath of that would look more like face paint than a wrinkle.

They inevitably thought my portraits were flattering even when I was trying for accuracy. Now I finally understand why!

I hope you'll cover birds and animals in landscapes too sometime during these webinars. They're a big challenge to me, though now I can see that in one sense they're also a solution. Birds and animals are definitely movable elements that could come in to change a composition for the better.

Thank you again for sharing your lifetime of knowledge and skill. Every night there are eye-openers, one after another, all so important I don't want to forget them and will use them in everything from sketches to oil paintings. Thanks to you, 2011 is when I'll actually try oil painting again.

What do you think of the W&N Griffin Alkyd paints? I have a wider range in those than in W&N Artist oils and know I have Viridian and Indian Red in those already.

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 11:40 AM
Thank you! Both for giving these classes and for critiquing my notes. I have to paraphrase sometimes for space and usually get ideas for my own examples, so knowing that I've got it right helps me so much.

This morning I felt self conscious about posting eight pages of notes, but not any more. So many people are finding them useful that I'll go on posting them after every session. Sketching and jotting them helps me assimilate more of the information. When I do that, I think it sticks in a different part of my brain.

A lot of what you're demonstrating is right brain stuff. I think my right brain learns too though, some of these things are not obvious even if I zone out completely into right brain thinking.

I'm also finally getting how even in a portrait or a landscape that has to be a portrait of a landmark, so many elements can change including the light and emphasis. I didn't copy your demonstration of the elderly man's portrait because that was familiar from my portrait sketching days, one of the things I did intuitively.

I was trying to get the likeness of elderly tourists with pastels in only half an hour or so (the average patience of a tourist for a sitting). So I'd try to get in all the wrinkles but had to choose the most important ones and worked with pastels - a blunt instrument. That made my wrinkles looser and I'd choose a value that wasn't too far from the face, not the deep crease value because a broad swath of that would look more like face paint than a wrinkle.

They inevitably thought my portraits were flattering even when I was trying for accuracy. Now I finally understand why!

I hope you'll cover birds and animals in landscapes too sometime during these webinars. They're a big challenge to me, though now I can see that in one sense they're also a solution. Birds and animals are definitely movable elements that could come in to change a composition for the better.

Thank you again for sharing your lifetime of knowledge and skill. Every night there are eye-openers, one after another, all so important I don't want to forget them and will use them in everything from sketches to oil paintings. Thanks to you, 2011 is when I'll actually try oil painting again.

What do you think of the W&N Griffin Alkyd paints? I have a wider range in those than in W&N Artist oils and know I have Viridian and Indian Red in those already.

I trust all the professional quality Windsor and Newton products. Their alkyd
products don't have the colors I like though.
About facial wrinkles, a good portrait artist will exploit "character wrinkles" and down play the aging wrinkles.

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 12:34 PM
That's what came as such a great surprise to me. I hadn't really noticed there was a difference between aging wrinkles and character wrinkles. I thought of all facial wrinkles as character wrinkles because expression affects them so much. But you're right, things like those wrinkles on the upper lip don't really say as much about expression as just that someone's old.

It's another great eye-opener. I think I did it intuitively sometimes, so this is one of those "Now I get it!" moments. I'd pick the ones I thought were the most interesting - and those would tend to be the character wrinkles now that I think about it.

Another puzzle solved! About a quarter to a third of the time your classes explain something that I've done for a while on observation or intuition and help me understand why it works. This is doing wonders for helping me trust my right brain nonverbal intuition too.

gakinme
12-08-2010, 12:36 PM
Johannes, thank you so much for these pointers and critiques. I am on the West Coast and work full time and would never be able to join these web lessons during the week. It's like instant lessons without having to read books and books to find the principles.

And thanks to everyone who posted notes and illustrations. Without them, I wouldn't be able to see what was shared.

susanc
12-08-2010, 01:18 PM
Robert and Sonya--thanks for your notes from yesterday. Life got in the way so I missed out on several things and truthfully, I don't want to miss out on a single thing. IMO, this is the most amazing opportunity of a lifetime! Thanks, Johannes.

I thought I'd try to create a self-critique sheet with some of Joe's composition principles. This is by no means the “whole enchilada” of Joe’s knowledge—just a few composition basics that stood out to me.
Naturally, Johannes, please re-arrange, correct, add or subtract anything since it’s your info!

1. What is my painting about? The mountains, the terrain, the water, the sky, the trees? Does that area predominate in my painting?
2. Have I made good use of 2/3, 1/3 divisions? (Avoid dividing the painting in half anywhere.)
3. Have I thought in terms of masses instead of single items? (Massing applies to shapes, like evergreens or rocks, and also to values—avoid scattered, unconnected objects or lights, darks, etc. )
4. Is my painting constructed of unique, good abstract shapes that are interesting on their own? (Have I avoided rectangles and triangles, Swedish meatballs, clones, symmetrical shapes, etc.? Did I use Mama, Papa, Baby bear variations instead of clones?)
5. Did I make use of melodic lines? (Snakes are far less appealing than melodic lines!)
6. Are horizontals and diagonals broken up or interrupted somehow (incidents), so the eye doesn’t travel too fast across the composition?
7. Did I think in 3-D, from front to back? (Ideally, buildings at ¾ view, no trees lined to make a perfectly straight row—but some breaking through the bottom of the tree line as though coming forward, softened back edges, etc.)
8. Do I have a No Fly Zone, the outer margin where all contrast is reduced in color saturation, value, detail and texture? Nothing too “interesting” or in sharp focus along edges of picture. Nothing seeming to take root along the bottom edge of the picture.
9. Is there an unobstructed path, allowing the eye to travel into the middle ground? Does it have an interesting movement, like an “S” curve line?
10. Can anything be taken out to make the composition stronger? Error on the side of simplicity. John Poon and Scott Christensen are good examples of non-cluttered painters.
11. Does anything draw my eye away from my focal point?

The adventure continues. Tune in tonight, same time (5 EST), same place for more…

I reluctantly accepted a children’s book commission recently. (She offered to pay more than I asked for and was also content with the deadline I suggested. I was unprepared for all that and caved. It’s self-published so I’m in charge of everything visual). While it’s really fun, I’m torn up that I can’t participate fully in this opportunity with Johannes until I’ve finished it, and there’s a lot to illustrate. But I’ve applied some of what I learned from Johannes to the pictures, which improved my compositions. (Any suggestions for painting snail and caterpillar characters, Johannes?) :) kidding...
Guess I’d better get back to it…
Susan

winecountry
12-08-2010, 02:11 PM
Susan don't know what J has to say, but IMO this really puts it all in a nutshell and I was there the whole time....


Was just thinking today, tho these classes are not just convenient for all, that think of it this way, you don't have to travel, spend money on rooms, workshops, car or plane, you don't have to buy new equipment or supplies, don't have to eat out or even dress up, and every day you have a 2-3 hour workshop, that really has everything you will need to know about landscape, with everything condensed, demonstrated and put in easy to understand forms all at once and in one place, where you can take a break when you want, eat your meal while the teacher is talking, hear questions from the rest of the class, and have one of he most dedicated knowledgeable teachers show you the pricinciples not only with his art but the best of the field in many styles, and it's all FREE...... Worth getting up early, staying up late, neglecting your duties?:lol:

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 02:16 PM
What I find interesting is that none of you who posts notes have misquoted me or erred in your understanding. That means that you are really intaking this. I guess the visual illustrations is imperitive. I'm so glad this is not going to waste.

winecountry
12-08-2010, 02:21 PM
[QUOTE=robertsloan2

Another puzzle solved! About a quarter to a third of the time your classes explain something that I've done for a while on observation or intuition and help me understand why it works. This is doing wonders for helping me trust my right brain nonverbal intuition too.[/QUOTE]

Yes this is my experience too!

Grainne
12-08-2010, 02:48 PM
Was just thinking today, tho these classes are not just convenient for all, that think of it this way, you don't have to travel, spend money on rooms, workshops, car or plane, you don't have to buy new equipment or supplies, don't have to eat out or even dress up, and every day you have a 2-3 hour workshop, that really has everything you will need to know about landscape, with everything condensed, demonstrated and put in easy to understand forms all at once and in one place, where you can take a break when you want, eat your meal while the teacher is talking, hear questions from the rest of the class, and have one of he most dedicated knowledgeable teachers show you the pricinciples not only with his art but the best of the field in many styles, and it's all FREE...... Worth getting up early, staying up late, neglecting your duties?:lol:


You got that ^^^ right!!! :thumbsup: :D

With lodging, travel, meals, & tuition, the four day workshop I just took in October cost me about $1200.00, and I didn't even get to eat while the teacher was talking :D

What did perplex me about the workshop I took, there were a vocal few (out of 25 participants) who didn't really want to follow the instructions of the presenter or participate in any of the really valuable exercises she took the willing ones though, which were designed to train the eye and perfect the skill level, especially the drawing skills. While the rest of us were hanging on the artist's every word and eagerly doing every preparatory exercise, they complained that they just "wanted to paint" and that this was "supposed to be a painting workshop." We progressed and learned a great deal while "they" showed little or no progress at the end when we all displayed our work. Why spend all that money for someone else's expertise if you are just going to continue to do things your way without opening yourself up to fresh insight and the possibility of new growth? But the truly bothersome thing was on the last day when a live model was brought in. The instructor wanted the overhead studio lights to be turned off and spotlights used so we could see and draw and paint from the strong shadow shapes formed on the model (it was a portrait workshop). "They" complained so loudly that all the lights needed to be left on so that they could sit at their stations and "just paint" that the instructor caved, and the rest of us didn't get the full experience of that lesson. :rolleyes:

Not me! I am eager to learn and I know that it takes a cooperative, teachable spirit to be able to grow.


Grainne

Esmeralinda
12-08-2010, 03:04 PM
What I find interesting is that none of you who posts notes have misquoted me or erred in your understanding. That means that you are really intaking this. I guess the visual illustrations is imperitive. I'm so glad this is not going to waste.
Me too ! It is really helpful :thumbsup:

So many people are finding them useful that I'll go on posting them after every session
Robert, that is great because I won't be able to see all of them..

Also, I have no microphone so cannot communicate live but it's okay as there's so much wonderful instruction that I am learning enormously !

Thanks again Johannes :clap:

Michaelmcg
12-08-2010, 03:13 PM
Michael I really like this piece. Especially the left side. That is yummy. Many times artists try to fit things in a box. This is because we grow up in a world where things are not cropped but become faint in our peripheal vision.
Look at the modification below where I cropped off some of those evergreens. When it comes to cropping think out of the box. Also the symetrical triangle of the grass clump was removed.

Definitely better, Johannes. I think I got away with it because of the eyecatching pond/reflections!

Michael

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 03:54 PM
As you can see Michael in my painting above, cropping evergreens really helps the eye to go elsewhere where it should. Whenever a shape is cropped or partially blocked in a painting sends the message, " You are not that important". Whenever you show a shape such as evergreens in their entirety it will send a message that they are important. So you play the game of what to show and what not to show to suit your composition.
Here is one. I will show more of my watercolors on the webinar tonight.

Titled: "Seeking for Warmth"

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 03:58 PM
Me too ! It is really helpful :thumbsup:


Robert, that is great because I won't be able to see all of them..

Also, I have no microphone so cannot communicate live but it's okay as there's so much wonderful instruction that I am learning enormously !

Thanks again Johannes :clap:
None of you are being able to speak to me on the mike. That option is deactivated to avoid all the back feed. You can type questions however in the question box.

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 04:02 PM
As you can see Michael in my painting above, cropping evergreens really helps the eye to go elsewhere where it should. Whenever a shape is cropped or partially blocked in a painting sends the message, " You are not that important". Whenever you show a shape such as evergreens in their entirety it will send a message that they are important. So you play the game of what to show and what not to show to suit your composition.

Colorix
12-08-2010, 04:04 PM
Was just thinking today, tho these classes are not just convenient for all, that think of it this way, you don't have to travel, spend money on rooms, workshops, car or plane, (snip) and it's all FREE...... Worth getting up early, staying up late, neglecting your duties?:lol:

Collen, in three days, I've saved US $4000, roughly. I'd have to travel overseas to get this kind of education! I gladly 'pay' by losing sleep! I'd be mad if I didn't attend!

Wouldn't it be nice if WC would have and host this kind of high-quality live interaction classes and critiques -- mentoring -- for us members?

Johannes mentioned in Tuesday's session that he hopes this can continue in some way, and that would be wonderful!

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 04:24 PM
Collen, in three days, I've saved US $4000, roughly. I'd have to travel overseas to get this kind of education! I gladly 'pay' by losing sleep! I'd be mad if I didn't attend!

Wouldn't it be nice if WC would have and host this kind of high-quality live interaction classes and critiques -- mentoring -- for us members?

Johannes mentioned in Tuesday's session that he hopes this can continue in some way, and that would be wonderful!

I think that THE ARTIST MAGAZINE company would do very well because of all their advertising power to have live and interactive classes such as I am doing with the critiques and all. It is all set up. Maybe someone from their magazine will take notice and drop by to see the potential of these classes and decide to institute this as part of their services. That way they have the videos they can sell, the magazine and the live classes. Personally once I'm done on December 22 they would be wasting an opportunity if this fades out. I for one would be willing to collaborate with them on something permanent.

crazywoman53
12-08-2010, 04:52 PM
"Seeking the Warmth" is a perfect example of the color choices you were describing last night for a couple of us who had green tree problems. So much of what you are showing helps to "sink in" what you are talking about. I used to teach classes in emergency med. and one of the things that was ingrained in me head when taking instructor classes was how people learn. We learn from seeing something done, hearing it and doing it. Some people learn better in one form over another but everyone learns better if they encorporate all three. While it is not possible to paint at least for me while you are instructing I think it is imperative to implement these new little gems as soon as I can so that they all become a part of my regular of thinking while I am painting. I know you grumble at your mouse useage but in someways it is better than watching an artist paint and only seeing their back or hand move and not being able to see what is happening on the support material. I can't wait for the next session!!!

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 04:57 PM
Johannes, it'd be wonderful if WC or F&W can host these so they're available at other times. I hope you've been able to record them or someone has. They're fantastic.

Dharma_bum
12-08-2010, 04:59 PM
Where is today's link?

Dan

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 05:03 PM
1. Please join my Webinar for today Wednesday Dec 8. This is the link for everyday.
https://www3.gotowebinar.com/register/186041342


Webinar ID: 186-041-342

GoToWebinar®
Web Events and Online Meetings Made Easy™

granddad
12-08-2010, 08:36 PM
Wow, I just tuned in today and boy did I learn a lot. I am sure sad I missed the other days but I do plan on being there from now on. I am really grateful that you are doing this and it is so helpful. I really, truely, appreciate what you are doing. james

Davkin
12-08-2010, 08:39 PM
Again, thank you so much for your time and knowledge today Johanness. I only made the last 1 1/2 hours today but it was an amazing how much I learned by just being there half the time. The bit about not stacking values alone was a huge golden nugget!

David

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 08:55 PM
Pointers to keep in mind for painting skies


1. A blue sky is darker and cooler at the zenith and gradually becomes warmer and lighter at the horizon. Near the horizon, it will tend to become more yellow then shifts to orange as the sun sets. If it is not late afternoon the horizon tends to be turquoise. Early morning skies tend to be pinkish near the horizon.
2. Because of perspective clouds at the zenith are larger than the ones that approach the horizon.
3. The fluffy whiteish clouds are cooler at the zenith and warmer near the horizon, again becoming more yellowish then shifting to orange as the afternoon progresses.
4. The reverse is true for the shadow areas of clouds which are warmer and darker at the zenith, then gradually becoming cooler and lighter as they recede in the horizon. Also clouds at the zenith are larger and gradually become smaller as they approach the horizon. The shadow (blue-grey) parts of your clouds can be lighter than the blue sky or darker depending on how close it is to raining. Rarely do cloud shadows get darker than the blue sky.
5. Avoid a 50-50 blue sky vs cloudy sky. Avoid a solid patch of blue sky.
6. Indicate small cloud off-springs from larger clouds so you don’t have solid blue patches in the sky that will make it appear they were painted with a roller.
7. For more interest avoid the left and right side corners of your sky as being similar.
8. You may want to plan a visual path in your cloud patterns originating from the top left corner just like how you read.
9. Placing the tip of a mountain against a white cloud will enhance the illusion of its height.
10. The smaller mass you dedicate to the sky, the less texture it should have to avoid an overstated sky. The sky also provides an opportunity as a rest area.
11. If snow patches on a mountain is your focal point, clouds with equal value will compete. Darkening the clouds will avoid competing with the snow. Also if you keep your shadow areas of your clouds the same value as the sky, it will read better as a general mass. I tend to use value 1 for my snow patches and use value 2 for my fluffy parts of my clouds. This way you avoid a stacking effect.
12. Plan your skies to suit your composition. If you have a dark evergreen tree tops and you don’t want this to stand out, disguise it in the dark of a rain cloud.
13. Turquoise skies harmonize better in predominately green scenes rather than blue ones.
14. The highlights of your rocks, tree trunks, snow etc should reflect the sky highlights. Example. A late sunset with it reds and oranges should be the highlights of your rocks. Just as well, the cool blue sky should also echo on the shadowed areas of your rocks, tree branches etc to tie the painting together.
15. Remember not to leave out the smaller wispy clouds that break off and float away from its mother clouds.
16. Echo the terrain colours into the bottom of the clouds. If you have golden grass then the bottom of your clouds should have this color repeated in the bottom shadowed part of your cloud. If you have green trees and/or green grass this also should repeat in the bottom areas of your clouds. The same applies to red-orange trees in which case that hue will be repeated in the cloud shadows.
17. The shadow part of your clouds can be darker, the same value or lighter than the blue sky. That depends on how dark you want to make your clouds according to the drama you wish to convey. If the sky is not a major component in my painting I tend to match the value of the violet dark part of the cloud with the value of the blue sky so the whole mass reads as one.
18. Skies can never be too light, but they can be too dark.
19. To create a more majestic look to your skies add the dark portion of your cloud in one of the corners.

LynnM
12-08-2010, 08:56 PM
I agree, worth every minute of time spent! I have taught landscape photography, but this brings in the great choices as painters that we have....too much choice, without the knowledge that you are giving us we flounder around. Well done!

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 08:57 PM
There I just released more wikileaks.

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 09:00 PM
Wow! Thank you again for a wonderful class. I learned tons and have taken seven pages of notes from all the critiques. I didn't repeat examples if I remembered something from before, trying to keep the notes concise but still ran to seven pages. I love what you did with skies.

The texture Clyde Aspevig uses on skies is similar to some I've seen in pastels too and I'm so glad that at the end you mentioned it's not just white being brought up into the sky texture in those "specklies" or shading strokes. It's actually a bit of the predominant landscape color (warm) brought into those micro-highlights like little snowflakes, right? So if there's a lot of reddish vegetation they are pinkish, or if it's a golden field it'll be just a touch of yellow ochre pale into the white before working it in like that.

I hope at some point you'll touch on doing nocturnes and whether it's okay to shift the whole value scale down a couple of notches, so the values 8, 9 or even 10 for accents are the darks, the previous mid-darks middle and the previous middle becomes the lights. That was the one way I thought actual black (10) could work in a painting, though still more just for accents.

Uh oh, the uploader's not working for me so I'll attach the notes. Two more attachments on next post.

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 09:01 PM
Last two pages of tonight's notes. Please, correct me if I skipped something important or garbled anything!

susanc
12-08-2010, 09:08 PM
I was just going through both the threads that lead to this one--I'd forgotten how many great tips Johannes has already shared in them. This link to his composition principles is also outstanding, packed with a lot of info in one place, so I thought I'd repeat it for this thread:

Johannes' Composition Principles (http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/135/120/)

I was able to record what Johannes said tonight (audio only), but his greatest strength is in giving visual examples that clearly illustrate what he means. I think he's genius at that. With some dvd's I've watched, my left brain battles with communicating to my right brain and I finally get so worn out, I fall asleep. (well, that's what I like to think anyway!) But that hasn't happened to me during Johannes' webinars. I'm amazed.

Robert, thanks so much. You are truly amazing, too.

winecountry
12-08-2010, 09:12 PM
Today was terrific for really understanding skies, as well as the other nuggets given on critiques.

Just wanted to share this painting, my first After Johannes work ( from now on AJ:D compared to BJ before)

Please keep in mind I've only been trying seascapes for two months. But this is by far a huge leap ahead for a very difficult subject, I have painted this spot plein air, but this is done from one of my photos, and I want to list the principals I used in it from Johannes classes

Melodic lines
3 main masses of value values grouped by 2s within each mass.( Ie no value 7 in the sky:lol: )
nothing darker than value 8 and that is only for accents.
Gradation
no fly zone quiet
abstract little paintings if you run a cut out square over the surface( no spot more than 2" stays the same color or shape)
lead in to the focal point ( the golden hills) I hope
using land colors in the sky
putting the colors in more than one spot, ie the golden land is in the sky and water, tho the photo does not show this well,
massing the rocks from the photo so they are not so spotty
simplifying the photo, ( probably still put in too much)
making one mass ( the land) the subject, got a bit too much sky left it in for
now I can crop it later...
soft edges for distance, bluer lighter the same, but warmed for time of day

Although I'm sure this can be improved ( couldn't get rid of triangle at one pesky corner) and I look forward to seeing what he thinks, the is the most sense I've made of this kind of view by far. And I knew what to do to keep correcting it as I went , so I was no longer clueless as to why it was not working. It is better in real life as the color here could not get balanced no matter what I did, I feel at last like I might have the makings of a landscape painter, and with more practice I can really do it.

This is a very late light, after sunset, foggy day, about 90 degrees from the sunset line so light is very soft muted ( some might say boring:lol: )

I still probably put too much in...8x10 oil on linen

Chrisp47
12-08-2010, 09:23 PM
Thank you again, Johannes.
For me it is like a prospector going out through years, searching for gold and finding some gold dust and maybe even a few nuggets, and then walking down a busy street coming to a bank that is offering gold bars free for the taking. Absoulutely wornderful.

Also a big thank you to Robert; your notes are wonderful. I combine them with my own. Keep them coming please.

It would be super if F&W would host a webinar in this format. It is truly great stuff.

I would like to nominate Johannes for President of Canada.:D
Robert can be his VP.

odieO
12-08-2010, 09:33 PM
Joe, I'm so enjoying your teaching. Thank you for sharing.
My head is spinning with all the information see you tomorrow.
Shirley

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 09:57 PM
Thanks! I'm copying everyone else's notes from this thread too, we all share notes and it really helps.

Colleen, I like the late evening light in your two seascapes. A painting doesn't always have to be the same time of day! Cool melodic lines in the rocks. I love the color of the dark wet sand in the second one, it draws me right in and makes me feel sand squishing between my toes.

allydoodle
12-08-2010, 10:06 PM
I would like to nominate Johannes for President of Canada.:D
Robert can be his VP.

They have my vote! Fantastic stuff, absolutely full of information I've never seen or heard articulated in any DVD or book I own, read or viewed.

Robert, you are an angel to post your notes - thank you so much. I cannot always stay for the entire seminar, as I have a family to feed, and a child to escort to and from after school events. I actually ate my dinner tonight while watching/listening, as I was by myself for a bit. I then had to pick up my daughter at an event, came home and heard the end. So, I did miss some stuff, but got most of it.

I'm wondering what that special sky nugget was that Clyde Aspevig uses in his skies? I actually had to leave just before that was revealed.

Again, thank you so much to Johannes for your generosity of time and energy hosting this event, and to Robert for his unending kindness in posting all his very thorough and really cool :cool: notes. :heart: :heart:

Dharma_bum
12-08-2010, 10:06 PM
Johannes---Thanks for the critique of my pastel, I agree that the violets in the shadows harmonize nicely with the greens and the rocks. I agree that the breaking up of segments into Youtube clips would be extremely time consuming, hope that another solution can be found. I am finding the repetition of the various principles to be helpful in getting them through my thick skull. :D

Dan

robertsloan2
12-08-2010, 10:12 PM
They have my vote! Fantastic stuff, absolutely full of information I've never seen or heard articulated in any DVD or book I own, read or viewed.

Robert, you are an angel to post your notes - thank you so much. I cannot always stay for the entire seminar, as I have a family to feed, and a child to escort to and from after school events. I actually ate my dinner tonight while watching/listening, as I was by myself for a bit. I then had to pick up my daughter at an event, came home and heard the end. So, I did miss some stuff, but got most of it.

I'm wondering what that special sky nugget was that Clyde Aspevig uses in his skies? I actually had to leave just before that was revealed.

Again, thank you so much to Johannes for your generosity of time and energy hosting this event, and to Robert for his unending kindness in posting all his very thorough and really cool :cool: notes. :heart: :heart:

My example in my notes isn't that good in a drawing, because it's a painting technique. It's putting "little sparklies, like snowflakes" bringing in just a little light color that's white mixed with a touch of the predominant land color.

Like if it's a golden field, you'd do off white with Yellow Ochre Pale and then lightly brush that into the blue of the sky, shading it up and also mottling it a little with flecks of the light color showing. Don't mix it till it's deadened, part of its charm is that the brush strokes show.

I've seen Colorix (Charlie) use the technique in pastels too, covering the sky with a texture of short strokes going all directions that are very close in value and hue but not exactly the same, shading it toward the light. In oils I guess you do that by putting the not-quite-white on the brush and then brushing it right into the blue sky, with more of the not-quite-white where you want the sky lighter.

She did that in Orangerie, the painting I bought. She used a very pale pink into the sky blues and did use a green-blue for the sky with bits of other blues. Charlie is a colourist who probably used about six or seven different pastels in the sky delicately shifting the hue and value as it went closer to the light. Using bits of all the predominant colors of the painting everywhere in it (at the right value and balanced amount in the mix) is a way to unify even a very intense high saturation painting.

I could understand it but didn't have room for two paragraphs of explanation or any better way to show it in Pitt pens than stippling in two shades of blue with a little light pink going up into it from a russet landscape.

Grainne
12-08-2010, 10:33 PM
For me it is like a prospector going out through years, searching for gold and finding some gold dust and maybe even a few nuggets, and then walking down a busy street coming to a bank that is offering gold bars free for the taking.

This comment really sums it up :)


I was really bummed tonight. :( I was able to participate the first two hours, but then just as the part about skies began I had to leave to go see about my mother. So while I am grateful for Robert's notes which are very visual, yet it is certainly brought home to me how much more meaningful it is to watch Johannes analyze paintings and work them over to illustrate his points right before our eyes.

As I said in the webinar tonight, this is an amazing way to learn and I am so grateful that I happened into the landscape forum in time to find out about Johannes' generous offer to coach us this way.


Grainne

*Violet*
12-08-2010, 10:38 PM
excellent !! ... truly excellent !! ... i cancelled plans to view tomorrow's !! ... :)

rugman
12-08-2010, 11:37 PM
Thanks again, Johannes! Your willingness to do all this blows me away! I will have to pick me up another legal pad of paper, as I have 15 pages of notes so far and will run out of paper soon. (not as nice and legible as Robert :) )

Your right, Johannes, about getting addicted to this stuff.

My kids are now trained not to interrupt dad (me) during my art class.

My wife has reluctantly accepted the fact that she will not have any of my attention for a few hours in the evening!

and.. I work thru lunch and "sneak" away early to get home in time for the class (benefit of self employment).

Johannes, you've really found a niche where many artists, like myself, are starving for this kind of information.

Thanks, Robert for sharing your notes.
NICE painting, Coleen!

JTMB
12-08-2010, 11:51 PM
I echo all the positive comments - the sessions have been absolutely wonderful! Coming late to art (a bit over two years ago when I retired) I wasn't sure how much I would be able to learn this late in life. Though pleased with my progress so far, I am now really encouraged by Johannes' support for focused obsession. My wife would vouch that I've been pretty obsessed since starting art, and now that approach has been validated by a master...! :o :)

Colorix
12-09-2010, 06:49 AM
Talk about obsession, yes, painting is the only thing I've stuck to for more than a couple of years.

Some screen clippings I managed to remember to take, and their 'shorthand' titles:

Character line (first time this painting was crit:ed):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Character_line.JPG

Clump Rocks (with the margin called "no-fly zone")

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Clump_rocks.JPG

Echo Colour (into shadows) A:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Echo_colour.JPG

Echo Colour B:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Echo_colour_2.JPG

Hedge saturation/desaturation (including mini harmonic line of curb):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Hedge_sat.JPG

Colorix
12-09-2010, 06:55 AM
S-shaped lead-in:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Lead_in_with_s_shape.JPG

Melodic changes to barn:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Melodic_changes_to_barn.JPG

More No-Fly zone:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-NoFlyzone.JPG

Soft melodic line:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Soft_melodic.JPG

Light up barn corner, with gradation:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-Barn_corner.JPG

Esmeralinda
12-09-2010, 08:41 AM
Another very interesting session ! :thumbsup:
Thank you Johannes.

Thank you Robert for your great notes. May I ask to clearify one area with the clouds. I had to leave for 10 minutes and missed this :
Colour of sky at zenith and horizon.......and colour of clouds at zenith and horizon !
I did get that white clouds warm up with distance.......

Thank you to all for sharing !

Judibelle
12-09-2010, 08:59 AM
Many thanks to Johannes for the lessons, and Robert and Charlie for the reviews....mcuh appreciated!
I managed to hold on til 8 pm, when my brain was so loaded I couldnt retain another thing! today I will review and retain a bit more....
I am learning so much!
Judi

Colorix
12-09-2010, 09:39 AM
Clips from Wednesday, Skies:


Three sections of sky, blue, underside (usually dark), and white fluffy:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_sky.JPG

Atmospheric colour perspective recession of undersides of clouds, going from warmer to cooler, warmer by Zenith, cooler by Horizon --Violet to Blue Violet to Blue:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_clouds_dark.JPG

Zenith is up, Horizon is down. Sky (blue) is darker and cooler towards Zenith, and warmer and lighter towards horizon:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_clouds_w_text.JPG

White gets warmer and darker towards horizon.

Value of dark of cloud (and light), numbers indicate values. Beware of making ground same value:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8__cloud_value.JPG


B/w version, where you see cloud bottom and sky are same value.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_in_bw.JPG

Colorix
12-09-2010, 09:48 AM
More clippings from Wednesday:

How to balance a painting, and add melodic line to tongue of land:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-9_balance.JPG


Masses and values of them:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_masses.JPG

More masses and values, land must be different value than sky (snow in direct light always lighter than sky):
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_more_masses_values.JPG

Colorix
12-09-2010, 09:52 AM
Note: See Robert's great notes for thorough review, I only post the images, as Robert says it all about the content!

And some of Johannes' thoughts on second focal points:

Second focal point:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_sec_focal_from_tutorial.JPG

Second focal point should be in the diagonal to the primary fc:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_diagon_focal.JPG

Advice on how to get 3D in painting. Point 5 should read "Heavier texture..." :

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/117343-8_3D_a.JPG

Deborah Secor
12-09-2010, 10:03 AM
Thanks so much, Charlie! I have a lot of the same screen shots, but missed the sky discussion.

Grainne
12-09-2010, 10:23 AM
Since some of us were anxious to see the presentation on skies but weren't able to hang on for it last night, I hope Johannes presents a review at the beginning of the webinar tonight.

I will even say "Pretty please!" :) :crossfingers:


Grainne

oldradagast
12-09-2010, 10:30 AM
Thanks Johannes for another great session!

All of the information was really helpful, and you do a great job not only presenting complex concepts, but linking them together as well.

The color flecks in the sky was particularly interesting. I saw that in Clyde's work (at least based upon low-res photos online), and it obviously worked, but I didn't know why - now I do!

The use of lavender colors to balance out and cool down greens in "extreme green" forest scenes was also particularly interesting since that may help me handle forest interior scenes. I seem to be hit or miss with them - there's often so much "stuff" in the scene that sometimes the end result is "detailed chaos" vs. an actual interesting painting.

Thanks again for taking the time to teach us all!

Esmeralinda
12-09-2010, 10:37 AM
Thank you Charlie, I have now my answers as I was away for those 10 precious minutes ! :thumbsup:

robertsloan2
12-09-2010, 11:24 AM
Another very interesting session ! :thumbsup:
Thank you Johannes.

Thank you Robert for your great notes. May I ask to clearify one area with the clouds. I had to leave for 10 minutes and missed this :
Colour of sky at zenith and horizon.......and colour of clouds at zenith and horizon !
I did get that white clouds warm up with distance.......

Thank you to all for sharing !

That was complicated. There are three different things:

Color of the blue sky is darker and cooler at the zenith, lighter and warmer at the horizon. Say, cobalt blue at the zenith and a turquoise tint at the horizon.

Color of the cloud shadows is darker and warmer at the zenith (close to or right over the viewer), cooler and lighter at the horizon (farthest away).

Color of the white fluffy highlighted part of the clouds: cooler and lighter at the zenith (closest to you) while warmer and darker at the horizon (farther from you).

The result is that the contrast of lighter and darker reduces at the horizon - highlights are darker and shadows/sky color lighter.

In a class on snow with Deborah Secor, the actual hue of cloud highlights will have a touch of yellow closest to the viewer, then fade through orange to pink. This works for snow highlights near and far too, and can even go to lavender highlights. It's because the yellow drops out first in aerial perspective and then the reds drop out, leaving the blues.

In cloud highlights, Johannes pointed out these are value 2, just one step darker than white, barely enough to tell what color it is. They still read as white in context but look tons better. If there's any value 1 pure accents on the clouds (where you don't have any white snow and the snow patches are blue or something) they would be right at the zenith.

Don't put white surf on a seascape or white snow on mountains with white cloud highlights in the sky. One or both has to be tinted so the other stands out. If the snow's the focal point it can have more contrast. If the clouds are, then tinting the snow or surf works better.

Also, the predominant color of the landscape under the clouds will reflect up into it - very subtle reflected color. You have a violet underside to the cloud and it's over russet bushes, then add just a little pink with the same red earth you used on the russet bushes into that shadow in patches. If it's over yellow ochre fields, then mix a little yellow ochre pale into the cloud shadows. If it's over green fields, bring green up into the undersides of clouds. Not a lot, just enough to be part of the mix and help unify the painting.

There's everything I remember this morning about the cloud colors. Hope this helps!

Charlie, thank you for posting and captioning all those screen shots! I took some too but haven't edited them or sorted them out. Just titled them and mentioned the titles in my typed notes, which are much more chaotic than my written ones since they're intermittent. I don't post my typed notes, they'd take too much editing and just repeat what I put in the sketchbook anyway.

LOL - I'm going to have to switch sketchbooks soon, this one's filling up! The size seems to be perfect for note-taking though, so I got out a spiral bound one about the same size.

winecountry
12-09-2010, 11:26 AM
One more addition for the sky discussion, the WHITES of the clouds get warmer as they go to the horizion,( the rest cool) because for a reason he does not know whites go warmer in the distance.

Robert and I cross posted, but never hurts to hear it again, was thinking one reason whites go warmer is full on white is cooler in color to start so it appears to warm in contrast , perhaps picking up land colors as it goes.

the other point that I'm starting to see and celebrate, is we are all looking at each others work with new eyes and mentioning, melodic lines, values masses, no fly zones etc. Which means to me after the class and Johannes getting a life besides us:lol: when he travels and teaches again. WE will continue to move on to better and better work. True we will have a "jargon" newbies might not understand, but we can refer to this thread so it can be learned by anyone.

This will do us all so much good, and help lift eveyone's work to new levels so much more that just being nice and polite and giving encouragement, which is OK too, but often leaves gaping holes in what could be done to improve.( IMO) and has been one of my great frustrations here, now we can have LMHI crits without personal agendas, and using a measuring stick we all know, agree with and have had proven to us by Johannes and all the work he shows us from the best artists. Can't wait to see where we all are a year from now. :thumbsup:

Johannes Instructor
12-09-2010, 12:05 PM
Remember you can type questions in here and they will be answered tonight.
We still have pending to learn:
1. How to do mountains and where to place them.
2. Water reflections
3. Seascapes
4. More on mass and value designing
5. How to do rocks
6. How to paint snow
7. Insight on how to depict buildings.
8. Waterfalls
Is there anything else you would like to know?

sallspaw
12-09-2010, 12:28 PM
I would love to attend tonight's webinar....will you be providing a link? and will it be at 5pm EST?

Colorix
12-09-2010, 12:31 PM
Whites: Well, we're talking white sunlight on highly reflective surfaces as clouds and snow. Neither are really 'white', as such, they only *look* white. Water droplets or ice particles absorb little light.

Seems to me that there are many factors, and a few would be:
-The more intense the light, the quicker the eye 'shortens out', and views light as 'white'.
- The blue part of the spectrum is scattered more widely in the atmosphere than the other parts (hence blue sky)
- the light that reaches clouds have a bit less blue in it
- the light bouncing off more distant clouds has a longer way to travel to our eyes than the clouds right above us
- if there is less blue in the light reaching the clouds, the additive mixing system would give more red and green light mixing into -- yes, yellow. Very likely the green fades next, leaving mostly weak red as the distance to the clouds increase.

But, don't take my word for it, it is a guess.

Johannes Instructor
12-09-2010, 01:07 PM
I would love to attend tonight's webinar....will you be providing a link? and will it be at 5pm EST?

1. Please join my Webinar.
https://www3.gotowebinar.com/register/186041342 (https://www3.gotowebinar.com/register/186041342)

Yes, 5 PM EST until topic is exhausted.
You can put in bogus data in case you don't want to leave your email in the registration form. Please show up early to guarantee your spot. There is a lot of demand. It has been growing due to the frenzy and word getting out. There is a limit to the capacity of the demo program I am using . The session will be open 30 min before the scheduled time. I believe some may be left out tonight. There are 136 registered plus what will accumulate over the day. The free program I am using as it stands can only host 100. Of course the program can host any number but not the free demo version.

beejane
12-09-2010, 01:20 PM
We still have pending to learn:
1. How to do mountains and where to place them.
2. Water reflections
3. Seascapes
4. More on mass and value designing
5. How to do rocks
6. How to paint snow
7. Insight on how to depict buildings.
Is there anything else you would like to know?

I haven't posted in this forum for so long but have to get over my political pout because of the generosity of Johannes. Unbelievable classes! I have taken a few workshops, and never have I had this quality of teaching. Not all artists can teach, and sometimes they are more interested in showing how they can paint than in what you can paint. This method of teaching, with examples and sketches and diagrams and reviews of other top artist's paintings and personal and professional art critiques really makes the points sink in. You can say, "paintings work for reasons they work" forever, but that's not going to help you or tell you anything. Johannes is telling us! I would love to see you paint, Johannes, but maybe because you are right now interested in getting us to be better painters, than in you producing a painting, you are able to make the points sink in.
I am interested in all the lessons to come, especially the buildings and snow and water reflections. Mountains and seascapes with large waves are out of my realm, but perhaps you could include the reverse, which is no mountains or hills with perfectly flat landscapes, and little waves and moving water like you see on the Great Lakes.
Your critiques of works sent to you are a part of the teaching and I'm sure everyone who was lucky enough to get some personal attention is going to be a better painter. With these classes going so long, though, would you be able to put the critiques after the lesson? Sometimes it's difficult to stay the whole time, especially now with Christmas approaching.
Barbara
who was lucky enough to get her house and barn critiqued.

skappy
12-09-2010, 01:27 PM
Hi everybody Thanks Johannes for the great demos I watched until the end last night @ 2 30 am local, then cats woke me up at 5 30 and had to drive to Paris under difficult snow conditions here I'm back I'll be there tonite hope until the end
Robert:cat:

Johannes Instructor
12-09-2010, 02:21 PM
This is to let you know that the amount of people that have registered for tonight's class has grown two fold and I am 35% over the limit as far as the registration report is concerned. Unfortunately it is possible that some of you won't be able to get in tonight. If you cannot enter tonight I am sorry. I took on a demo version of gotomeeting and it allows only up tp 100 people. However if you make it in the room and are no longer paying attention please exit the webinar to allow others on standby to come in. Tonight I will do more critiques and if we have time I will teach all you need to know about water reflections. I will open the webinar at 4:30 PM EST. It will have to be first come first get. Remember to raise your hand so I can give you the mike to make comments or ask questions. Aldo you can type your question in the question window. See you tonight.

Grainne
12-09-2010, 02:22 PM
painter. With these classes going so long, though, would you be able to put the critiques after the lesson? Sometimes it's difficult to stay the whole time, especially now with Christmas approaching.
Barbara




I second this motion! :)


Grainne

Dharma_bum
12-09-2010, 02:34 PM
I second this motion! :)


Grainne

That makes good sense. I find the critiques to be very helpful too, but to guarantee that the other material gets covered, this might be the way to go.

Dan

Dharma_bum
12-09-2010, 02:57 PM
Question about blue sky color temp:

I think of greenish blue as being cooler than reddish blue. Ultra marine is considered a warm blue, cerulean or prussian are considered cool, greenish blue in relation to ultramarine.

Yet, in my notes I have sky color at zenith is cool blue, at horizon is warm blue. Ultramarine was suggested for zenith, cobalt plus yellow (or cerulean) for horizon. Now yellow is certainly warm, but I've always heard that cerulean is a cool blue, and the sky does tend more toward green as it approaches the horizon, which to me means cooler rather than warmer, unless it's at sunset. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks,

Dan

sallspaw
12-09-2010, 02:58 PM
thank you Johanne, I will be attending! I'm anxious to see what you have going on here...this all sounds so great :)

Davkin
12-09-2010, 03:17 PM
1. Please join my Webinar.
https://www3.gotowebinar.com/register/186041342 (https://www3.gotowebinar.com/register/186041342)

Yes, 5 PM EST until topic is exhausted.
You can put in bogus data in case you don't want to leave your email in the registration form. Please show up early to guarantee your spot. There is a lot of demand. It has been growing due to the frenzy and word getting out. There is a limit to the capacity of the demo program I am using . The session will be open 30 min before the scheduled time. I believe some may be left out tonight. There are 136 registered plus what will accumulate over the day. The free program I am using as it stands can only host 100. Of course the program can host any number but not the free demo version.

Well, bummer. All the more reason to find a host for all the recordings of the webinars. Unfortunately I won't get there until after 6:00 so I'll most likely get froze out.

David

SonyaJ
12-09-2010, 03:24 PM
I haven't posted in this forum for so long but have to get over my political pout because of the generosity of Johannes. Unbelievable classes! I have taken a few workshops, and never have I had this quality of teaching. Not all artists can teach, and sometimes they are more interested in showing how they can paint than in what you can paint. This method of teaching, with examples and sketches and diagrams and reviews of other top artist's paintings and personal and professional art critiques really makes the points sink in.

Totally agree with you, Barbara! I was thinking the same things last night when I was explaining to my DH how great these webinars are and how much I've learned :).

For me, the combination of having these concepts repeated throughout each session, and coupled with numerous examples of different artist's work, has been huge in helping clinch them in my mind. I read a lot of art instruction references, both books and magazine articles, and I'm always trying to find new sources to help improve my painting techniques and understanding of the principles I read. But, honestly, there is just something about listening and watching Johannes explain a concept, and then show examples of exactly what he explained that transcends anything I've learned (or tried to learn) before.

Concepts I was intuitively applying in my work suddenly gelled when he explained them. Things that I didn't like in my own or other's work were often difficult for me to pinpoint (and if I knew what the mistakes were, I'd have not made them in the first place :o ) suddenly became really obvious after listening to Johannes' lectures. Concepts I understood intellectually but didn't have a good practical understanding of suddenly had clarity when examples were given and explained.

Another thing I've noticed is that when I pulled out one of my books on composition to re-read, I started seeing some of the concepts Johannes talked about jumping out in both the text and the examples - things I simply did not see before. So, another benny of these webinars is that you'll probably be able to go back and get a lot more out of some of your books. I bet if I re-read Carson's book, much more will sink in.

You can say, "paintings work for reasons they work" forever, but that's not going to help you or tell you anything. Johannes is telling us! I would love to see you paint, Johannes, but maybe because you are right now interested in getting us to be better painters, than in you producing a painting, you are able to make the points sink in.

It's so true. Johannes has a way of articulating the "whys" of a successful or unsuccessful painting via his examples that is tremendous. And, it's so true that just because someone is at the top of their game is no guarantee that he or she will be a good teacher. Johannes even said as much about Clyde A., which is maybe one reason he doesn't offer workshops :lol:.

Someone said in an earlier post that he felt like the information being given in these webinars were like walking past a bank handing out free gold bars after spending years panning for gold in various placers, hoping for a few nuggets. Perfect analogy for me as well. I just can't believe my good luck and fortune to have found and followed the initial thread and joined in on that second webinar and all subsequent ones.

I'm actually interested in all the topics listed and will be happy to take whatever you'd like to share with us, Johannes. It's all good :thumbsup:!

Barbara - it's too bad you don't post to WC (although I totally understand why you wouldn't want to; I find it best to lurk as well :wink2: ), but I'm glad you shared some of your paintings in the webinar - they were lovely!

BTW, for all the people paranoid about putting your real email address in the registration form, I can assure you that there's no spam - just a daily reminder of the upcoming webinar and a direct link to it with the time [and you can opt out of the reminders]. Once you've registered, you don't need to do anything except click on the link and accept the applet installation.

Dougwas
12-09-2010, 03:33 PM
Question about blue sky color temp:

I think of greenish blue as being cooler than reddish blue. Ultra marine is considered a warm blue, cerulean or prussian are considered cool, greenish blue in relation to ultramarine.

Yet, in my notes I have sky color at zenith is cool blue, at horizon is warm blue. Ultramarine was suggested for zenith, cobalt plus yellow (or cerulean) for horizon. Now yellow is certainly warm, but I've always heard that cerulean is a cool blue, and the sky does tend more toward green as it approaches the horizon, which to me means cooler rather than warmer, unless it's at sunset. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks,

Dan

Dan, I had problems with that too, but then I figured: If you add more blue to turquoise it becomes cooler, and if you add more green, it becomes warmer. So any blue would make turquoise warmer.

It took me until about an hour ago until I could wrap my head around that. If I am wrong, somebody please tell me.


Doug

SonyaJ
12-09-2010, 03:48 PM
Question about blue sky color temp:

I think of greenish blue as being cooler than reddish blue. Ultra marine is considered a warm blue, cerulean or prussian are considered cool, greenish blue in relation to ultramarine.
Actually, according to most sources I've read, UB is the coolest of the blues (trending towards red-violet) and I believe cerulean blue is the warmest (trending yellow-green). Cobalt and pthalo blues are in between. I've never seen UB as anything but a cool blue, myself, and on the rare occasion where I saw it stated as a warm blue, I simply ignored that ;). I'd recommend Margaret Kessler's book Color Harmony in your Paintings (http://www.amazon.com/Color-Harmony-Paintings-Margaret-Kessler/dp/1581804016), as she goes into more detail about color, with emphasis on the Munsell color system, and shows all the blues together. It's very clear which are warm and which are cool :). I found that book at my library, and it's definitely going to be part of my permanent reference collection.

You can easily test these out by mixing your UB with a cool red (eg - Alizarin crimson) and a warm red (cadmium red medium) and you'll see distinct differences in the purples - one will be much grayer than the other. Mix those same two reds with cerulean blue and you'll see the same thing.

Yet, in my notes I have sky color at zenith is cool blue, at horizon is warm blue. Ultramarine was suggested for zenith, cobalt plus yellow (or cerulean) for horizon.Now yellow is certainly warm, but I've always heard that cerulean is a cool blue, and the sky does tend more toward green as it approaches the horizon, which to me means cooler rather than warmer, unless it's at sunset. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks,
Your eye and the notes are correct; the categorizing of cerulean as a cool blue is incorrect and that's what is causing the understandable confusion you have :) .

Johannes Instructor
12-09-2010, 03:53 PM
Wow sonyaj I don't have words to address your last post. It leaves me speechless. I really appreciate all of your messages. I am falling in love with all of you.
I know how hard the path is to climb to the level where you have all the answers for to build a solid painting. We look everywhere for it but yes all the nuts and bolts to solve problems in paintings are not out there. I was writing an instructional book on how to paint from photos and design successful paintings. Things that I don't see yet published. I suspended it for a while because of writer's dry spell but all your wonderful comments for the past week have motivated me to continue on. I owe that to all of you. Today we will be doing some critiques. Please feel free to email me more of your paintings.
[email protected]

Esmeralinda
12-09-2010, 04:19 PM
Actually, according to most sources I've read, UB is the coolest of the blues (trending towards red-violet) and I believe cerulean blue is the warmest (trending yellow-green). Cobalt and pthalo blues are in between. I've never seen UB as anything but a cool blue, myself, and on the rare occasion where I saw it stated as a warm blue, I simply ignored that ;). I'd recommend Margaret Kessler's book Color Harmony in your Paintings (http://www.amazon.com/Color-Harmony-Paintings-Margaret-Kessler/dp/1581804016), as she goes into more detail about color, with emphasis on the Munsell color system, and shows all the blues together. It's very clear which are warm and which are cool :). I found that book at my library, and it's definitely going to be part of my permanent reference collection.

You can easily test these out by mixing your UB with a cool red (eg - Alizarin crimson) and a warm red (cadmium red medium) and you'll see distinct differences in the purples - one will be much grayer than the other. Mix those same two reds with cerulean blue and you'll see the same thing.


Your eye and the notes are correct; the categorizing of cerulean as a cool blue is incorrect and that's what is causing the understandable confusion you have :) .


Now I am really confuse ?? :eek: I also thought of UM a warmer blue compared to cerulean....I have learnt this in previous books such as Painting the effects of weather by Patricia Seligman ?

I need to research more as this will completely change my way of seeing and understanding what seemed to be sinked into my brain forever :rolleyes:

winecountry
12-09-2010, 04:45 PM
it is the same link everyday now see post 102 in this thread

1. Please join my Webinar for today . This is the link for everyday.
https://www3.gotowebinar.com/register/186041342


Webinar ID: 186-041-342

GoToWebinar®
Web Events and Online Meetings Made Easy™

winecountry
12-09-2010, 04:50 PM
re Ultramarine Blue...
there are many kinds, UB blue, UB reddish, UB greenish, UB deep and then every brand will be slightly different, there is not one standard UB blue but generally cerulean is "warmer"...this is where the precision of the Munsell color scale is so helpful, you could find it exactly by number, hue value chroma

SonyaJ
12-09-2010, 05:00 PM
Now I am really confuse ?? :eek: I also thought of UM a warmer blue compared to cerulean....I have learnt this in previous books such as Painting the effects of weather by Patricia Seligman ?

The easiest way to demonstrate is to just mix these blues with white - UB and white is a piercing, intense and chilling blue. Add white to Cerulean to get the same value and you'll see it just looks much warmer, and it's more towards the turquoise/yellow/green end of the spectrum. I don't have either cobalt, pthalo or prussian blues in my palette, but these would be easy to assign temperatures to if you mixed them with a bit of white and compared them to each other. Sometimes, that's the best way to tell.

I need to research more as this will completely change my way of seeing and understanding what seemed to be sinked into my brain forever :rolleyes:

Yes - I'd recommend Ms. Kessler's book, and there are so many resources on color, as well as just doing your own color charts, which is what I do frequently. If you've had trouble producing the colors you want, it could possibly be because of temperature differences in the pure paints you used in your mix.

And, adding to the confusion is that the temperature can vary depending upon the manufacturer of the paint! Back when I was doing realistic equine sculpture (mixed media, painted in oils), burnt umber was a staple color. I got used to using a cool version and when I replaced it with a different brand that was warmer, it didn't work for the mixes I used. The burnt sienna I use, by Gamblin, tends to be cooler and more bluish. I frequently have to offset that in my landscapes by adding some cadmium orange, which is an unambiguously warm color :lol:.

Dharma_bum
12-09-2010, 05:03 PM
Every book I've seen that talks about a split primary palette list cerulean as the cool blue, ultramarine as the warm blue. There are cool and warm greens as well, and I see cerulean blend greens as cooler than ultramarine mixes, which tend more toward the olive.

Dan

mcbru
12-09-2010, 08:29 PM
This is four days in a row, and I am amazed at the knowledge and sharing. Thank You very much for your insights. If you do have a workshop in Jackson, I would be very interested.

John

winecountry
12-09-2010, 08:38 PM
thanks Johannes :clap: :clap:

always wondered how they did that rock under water thing...., I'm sure Robert will post the notes on how to paint rocks under water, the other new to me thing was where you put water in to make a stream, a river or a lake, again I'l let Robert's notes show you that....if no one else put it up I took screen shots of some of Aspevigs work that show the principle, it always takes a couple of hours to sort my notes and shots together. back later...

Strawberry Wine
12-09-2010, 08:38 PM
Thanks Johanne for a extremely informative 3 hours. I have been glued to my monitor. Hoping I will be able to read my scribbled notes tomorrow.

Lynn M placed a link to this thread in the watercolour forum yesterday. I am sure there were a lot more watercolourists that joined in this evening... I appreciated your added comments regarding the watercolour technique for many of your demos.

I am looking forward to your posting of the water reflections tips in this thread and tuning in again tomorrow evening.

Cheers,

Gail

robertsloan2
12-09-2010, 08:56 PM
Johannes, thank you again for tonight's wonderful webinar. I loved finding out about the water reflections. Things I knew before became much clearer and easier to do, things I didn't understand made sense and brand new gold nuggets emerged that are so fantastic.

I always liked the rocks under water thing but didn't understand why it worked so well. I thought it was because it added another plane to the painting, one laying flat (the division of water and land) for more depth. It does that. But it also allows the gradation of warm to cool! That's so great!

As for whether violet-blue or green-blue is the "cool blue" - that's something that about half the authors I read say "violet blue is the cold blue" and half say "green blue is the cold blue." Like you I lean toward violet-blue as the cold blue, since in atmospheric recession the yellow vanishes before the reds do - violet-blues appear in the far distance and green-blues are closer.

But some people make arguments for "leans toward red" as the colder. I figured it didn't matter much what I called it as long as I used the right blue - GS or RS - in the right context.

Tonight's seven pages of notes, complete with Pitt pen doodles!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-64.jpg

I loved the melodic lines of the tree you sketched into the blue painting to replace the green ones, so I sketched something like it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-65.jpg

A better example of violet with yellow-greens on this page, plus some cheesy calligraphy...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-66.jpg

Reflections

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-67.jpg

Three more pages of notes in my next post!

robertsloan2
12-09-2010, 09:00 PM
The other three pages! I love this. It helps me so much in understanding all your examples. I've skipped some but not all repetitions.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-68.jpg

Rivers, Streams and Lakes created by what edges they enter on! That was completely new to me and makes sense in the same way that less sky in a painting makes a mountain look bigger. Sorry I couldn't blur the edges of the reflecting rock example with these pens though. Imagine them blurred.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-69.jpg

Rocks Under Water - oh I can believe they sell paintings as soon as they're seen. Good reflections do too. I've watched sales of some friends' paintings and anything they did with reflecting water sold and got bid up like crazy. Combining that with rocks under the water is something I've seen in winning place in a number of big competitions.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2010/70184-Coffee-Cigs-Pg-70.jpg

Enjoy! I hope I didn't leave out anything critical that was only mentioned tonight. I did have to run for a bathroom break during one critique, so I hope others have taken notes too.

SonyaJ
12-09-2010, 09:14 PM
Every book I've seen that talks about a split primary palette list cerulean as the cool blue, ultramarine as the warm blue. There are cool and warm greens as well, and I see cerulean blend greens as cooler than ultramarine mixes, which tend more toward the olive.
<shrug> I don't know what to tell you, Dan. You asked a question, and I took time to answer it, and not with a random, uninformed opinion. You asked it again to Johannes this evening, and from what I heard, he reiterated what was in my post.

No confusion on my end - I don't believe everything I read, and tend to go with what makes sense based on what I observe. One of my books (Tolley) says UB is warm, the others say it is cool. It does not look warm, it does not mix warm, so I'm not going to assume it's warm just because someone else says so. I modify UB with either a warm (sap) or cool (pthalo) green or an earth neutral, like yellow ochre, depending upon what color I want my sky to be and where it is in the horizon, following the principles Johannes discussed yesterday, which I already knew from lots and lots of personal observations of the sky :) .

Thanks for the reminder as to why I prefer to lurk on WC ;) .

SonyaJ
12-09-2010, 09:37 PM
Another great session tonight - thanks again, as always, Johannes! I think we all sit there with our brains like sponges, glued to the monitor.

Robert - you're really quick with getting all those notes scanned/photographed and up in the thread! :clap:

I was so pleased when Johannes basically said to forget all the mathematical stuff regarding the length of land objects reflecting in the water, and basically go with what "works", rather than getting caught up in measurements and all that. Bravo! I've heard artists say that the reflection can never be longer than the actual height of the object, and I knew that was wrong, based on personal observations of reflections, and tons of photos I've taken of them.

Johannes - if you do have a workshop in WY this summer, please keep us posted. And, I agree that videos of you painting and demonstrating these techniques you've generously shared would be the next step after listening to the lectures. I love watching YouTube videos of artists painting. Most, however, are speeded up quite a bit.

Please thank your family for allowing you to spend all this time with a bunch of us artist folk who want to learn stuff :lol:.

Grainne
12-09-2010, 09:48 PM
Another wonderful session! except I keep getting my supper on my keyboard because I get so excited at what I am learning :D

Robert, you ARE fast! Thanks!


Grainne

Johannes Instructor
12-09-2010, 09:56 PM
Robert again not one misquote and well summed up. You are just awesome. I cant believe you are on page 70. WOW.

Johannes Instructor
12-09-2010, 09:57 PM
Pointers on Water reflections

• Avoid any hard edges in your water. If painted in oils drag a dry brush over everything to soften. If painting watercolours do it all wet on wet.
• Color saturation becomes more dull in their reflections. If a yellow orange bush glows on dry land, it should not be mirrored in the water.
• Whatever is dark on dry land will be lighter in the water. Whatever is lighter on dry land will be darker in the water. In other words avoid extreme lights or darks in water reflections. If reflecting a white object do not repeat it. Whites should have a grayed color in water.
• Usually any body of water such as the sea or lake will be darker then the sky.
• Make your lakes more attractive by indicating wind ripple bands.
• The most effective way to create the illusion of reflections is to paint vertical bands then go across horizontally until it all softens.
• Do not repeat the same mass from dry land into water. To avoid parallel shapes. Usually it is effective to crop either the water or the masses on dry land to avoid a 50 – 50 proportion.
• If your subject is about water, give it considerable amount of space in your painting. You may want to place the shore line or horizon line 2/3 up.
• When dealing with rivers and streams create as “S” movement to enter the painting making sure the two visual lines do not start at the same side. One line should come in from the horizontal edge of your painting, the other from the vertical edge. A “C” movement works well too but not as effective as the “S”. Try not to mirror the line so the river or stream will not follow a highway look. The “S” movement will also apply to waterfalls.
• If a subject such as a fence post leans towards the left. The reflected sversion does the same and in an equal angle.
• When you depict ripples or wavlets, make sure they get smaller and smaller into the distance. Also the distance between them gets more narrow.
• Placing blue lines on top of the water reflections will create the glass look of water.
• Placing rocks under water shows depth and makes the viewer’s jaw drop. Also it provides the opportunity to show a gradation from warm in the foreground to cool in the distance.
• Reflections get blurrier as they recede from their source.


• All verticals will reflect. Anything with steep slopes will reflect (example 45 degrees) but less than the vertical. Anything that gradually slopes will not reflect. Anything horizontal will not reflect.
• The Rule of thumb is the more you look down into the water whether you are high up or very close to the object being reflected, the shorter it will be. The more you look across the water the longer the reflection will be. Remember your angles.

odieO
12-09-2010, 10:03 PM
I agree, I have eaten my supper in my office for the last three nights. I have been looking for some way to improve on my landscapes, thanks Joe for graciously providing a venue where I can have the tools I need to improve.
Now to find time to practice, so little time, so much to do.
S.

Paula Ford
12-09-2010, 10:47 PM
I wasn't able to attend tonight BUT I did receive the book Painting with the Artist's Brain today, that Johannes recommended. I'm really looking forward to reading it. Hopefully I can join in tomorrow night. Hubby will be away.

aolaranora
12-09-2010, 11:17 PM
Totally terrific sessions!

For me personally it is a crash course on... just about everything!..

I know very little theory and just trying to trust me feelings when I paint. Often it works out and often takes me into deeps woods... (and not the once what good for landscape painting either!). Super impressive. I wish I would have more landscapes to put up for C&C, but I only have what I did during my last year. Hopefully after this sessions whatever I'll attempt to paint next year will be better.
WOW it is cool! Just like somebody is sitting just near by and playing with my own Photoshop (Illusion is so complete that time to time I have to stop my own attempts to safe some files on my hard drive! Somebody also has similar problem ?... :-)

Thank You, Johannes!

And I guess you are right - we all are "slightly abscessed."

Robert, thank you too for all your wonderful notes!.

Mary Y
12-10-2010, 12:32 AM
Johannes,
Thank you for taking time to share your wealth of painting knowledge. I am really enjoying your lectures and the points you post after each session.I also find the critiquing very informative .

Robert, wonderful notes.I am especially grateful today as I had to go to work very early this morning and could only listen for an hour.

jbercx
12-10-2010, 01:19 AM
Have a question, because I am living on the other site of the Ocean, it is alway nighttime for us. Is there somewhere a recap (or video stream online) where I can see these instructions?

winecountry
12-10-2010, 01:49 AM
He's been trying to work that out, but so far WC has not been able to offer anything, and due to the interactive nature, it's not youtube fodder....Best bet for you is Robert's excellent notes posted here.

Michaelmcg
12-10-2010, 03:51 AM
One more addition for the sky discussion, the WHITES of the clouds get warmer as they go to the horizion,( the rest cool) because for a reason he does not know whites go warmer in the distance.

Robert and I cross posted, but never hurts to hear it again, was thinking one reason whites go warmer is full on white is cooler in color to start so it appears to warm in contrast , perhaps picking up land colors as it goes.

the other point that I'm starting to see and celebrate, is we are all looking at each others work with new eyes and mentioning, melodic lines, values masses, no fly zones etc. Which means to me after the class and Johannes getting a life besides us:lol: when he travels and teaches again. WE will continue to move on to better and better work. True we will have a "jargon" newbies might not understand, but we can refer to this thread so it can be learned by anyone.

This will do us all so much good, and help lift eveyone's work to new levels so much more that just being nice and polite and giving encouragement, which is OK too, but often leaves gaping holes in what could be done to improve.( IMO) and has been one of my great frustrations here, now we can have LMHI crits without personal agendas, and using a measuring stick we all know, agree with and have had proven to us by Johannes and all the work he shows us from the best artists. Can't wait to see where we all are a year from now. :thumbsup:

Couldn't have put it better, Colleen. Now we can all give each other objecive critiques without risking offending anyone. "Wow" and "clappies" are nice, but don't help us to improve. This is one of the best things to happen on Wetcanvas since I joined it.

Michael

Michael

seejay
12-10-2010, 04:15 AM
Thanks very much everyone posting their notes, and of course thanks to Johannes!:clap:

I can't join in the fun because my operation system isn't supported, so I'll take what I can from this thread.

Colleen - the WHITES of the clouds get warmer as they go to the horizion,( the rest cool

There is an explanation in this free ebook (http://www.archive.org/download/manualofoilpaint00colliala/manualofoilpaint00colliala.pdf), pages 100 - 104 that seems to make sense. The book is called 'A manual of oil painting' by John Collier. It is an old book, but the theory seems okay. Until I read this book a couple of months ago I only knew the 'things get bluer in the distance' rule, which is obviously wrong in certain cases. Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ruthie57
12-10-2010, 05:30 AM
I attended last night for the 2nd time and want to thank Johannes for imparting his knowledge so freely and so very well!

I only got 10 minutes into the tutorial when I had to go to bed because my eyes were closing....I so wanted to stay but it was nearly midnight here and I'm not a late night person!

So special thanks to Robert for the wonderful notes and sketches!

I may not be able to attend over the weekend but will be back next week. I'll try to have a midday nap so I can stay 'til the end...lol

Barbara01
12-10-2010, 08:50 AM
I've come to this thread a bit late perhaps, but I did create a login for the webinar from Johannes link to find a page displaying all the beautiful landscapes, but no video or sound to be found. Perhaps it was over since I logged in around 9:30pm EST (I'm in Southern Ontario). I'll try again today.

Thank you so much for offering all this help Johannes, you are a very fine and giving person. WC is a very exciting place as of late!

Thank you Chris for sharing the ebook by Collier, I've heard of this book, but never had the opportunity to read it.

Johannes Instructor
12-10-2010, 09:05 AM
Today was terrific for really understanding skies, as well as the other nuggets given on critiques.

Just wanted to share this painting, my first After Johannes work ( from now on AJ:D compared to BJ before)

Please keep in mind I've only been trying seascapes for two months. But this is by far a huge leap ahead for a very difficult subject, I have painted this spot plein air, but this is done from one of my photos, and I want to list the principals I used in it from Johannes classes

Melodic lines
3 main masses of value values grouped by 2s within each mass.( Ie no value 7 in the sky:lol: )
nothing darker than value 8 and that is only for accents.
Gradation
no fly zone quiet
abstract little paintings if you run a cut out square over the surface( no spot more than 2" stays the same color or shape)
lead in to the focal point ( the golden hills) I hope
using land colors in the sky
putting the colors in more than one spot, ie the golden land is in the sky and water, tho the photo does not show this well,
massing the rocks from the photo so they are not so spotty
simplifying the photo, ( probably still put in too much)
making one mass ( the land) the subject, got a bit too much sky left it in for
now I can crop it later...
soft edges for distance, bluer lighter the same, but warmed for time of day

Although I'm sure this can be improved ( couldn't get rid of triangle at one pesky corner) and I look forward to seeing what he thinks, the is the most sense I've made of this kind of view by far. And I knew what to do to keep correcting it as I went , so I was no longer clueless as to why it was not working. It is better in real life as the color here could not get balanced no matter what I did, I feel at last like I might have the makings of a landscape painter, and with more practice I can really do it.

This is a very late light, after sunset, foggy day, about 90 degrees from the sunset line so light is very soft muted ( some might say boring:lol: )

I still probably put too much in...8x10 oil on linen
I liked your piece posted in wetcanvas. Personally like foggy scenes that have some color in it, not just grey. I tend to make them somewhat into a warm lavender. I slightly changed your scene from sepia to that lavender. If you place the rocks somewhat touching each other and overlapping the shapes scattered shapes will become a unit a read better. I am sure you wanted to use the stones as a visual path but we have to hop scotch rather than eye flow to get to where you are leading us. The foam lines placed in a "S" movement provides a good visual path. I also chnaged the tops of several stones to vary their angles and create a more melodic line across the tops of the stones. They way you had them, there were repeated pyramid shapes. Remeber always check your cloning. the left brain (the enemy) will creep in when you least expect it. I love the way you put that warm light in the next plane. That makes athe focal point and very inviting. I attached another version where some of the sky is cropped out. Remember we spoke about budgeting the masses so the eye can stay focused in a predominant mass. I feel the sky mass was stealing some attention away. See what you think. If you glaze with alizarin crimson that will chnage the temperature. I also gradated the sky for more interest.

robertsloan2
12-10-2010, 09:23 AM
These critiques of anyone else's paintings help me so much. Thank you, Johannes! I like colorful fogs too. Thanks for validating my notes. I'm never sure if I got it right, writer insecurity.

I'll be switching to another sketchbook tonight. That's page 70 of an 80 page sketchbook that was half full when I started going to your class, also there's other pages in between the class notes ones. I need to leave space for some of those other projects so I'll just switch over to one the same size for notes.

Esmeralinda
12-10-2010, 09:29 AM
Thank you for those notes again, Robert !

Lovely changes with this already nice seascape, Johannes.
I love colourful greys !
I think Colleen will be happy !

I need to get things done today if I want to watch again today :crossfingers:

Johannes Instructor
12-10-2010, 09:32 AM
These critiques of anyone else's paintings help me so much. Thank you, Johannes! I like colorful fogs too. Thanks for validating my notes. I'm never sure if I got it right, writer insecurity.

I'll be switching to another sketchbook tonight. That's page 70 of an 80 page sketchbook that was half full when I started going to your class, also there's other pages in between the class notes ones. I need to leave space for some of those other projects so I'll just switch over to one the same size for notes.

Would you consider including the previous notes?

Strawberry Wine
12-10-2010, 09:57 AM
Hi Johanne and Everyone

As I mentioned in a previous post, last night was my first night attending the Webinar and this morning I have been printing out your tips pages as well as Robert's notes.

Thank you Robert, your notes and doodles are wonderful :thumbsup: Thank you for sharing.

I do have a question regarding the "no fly" zone. You mentioned it a few times I am assuming that it is an area of a painting where no detail should be painted... but of course I may be wrong on that.. Can you provide me with more information.

At the moment, I have no working microphone so I am unable to raise my hand and ask a question.

I am looking forward to tonights class. If one submits a painting to be critiqued is the painting to be from the subject of the previous night's class? and how do we go about submitting it to you?

Cheers,

Gail

Johannes Instructor
12-10-2010, 10:14 AM
Hi Johanne and Everyone

As I mentioned in a previous post, last night was my first night attending the Webinar and this morning I have been printing out your tips pages as well as Robert's notes.

Thank you Robert, your notes and doodles are wonderful :thumbsup: Thank you for sharing.

I do have a question regarding the "no fly" zone. You mentioned it a few times I am assuming that it is an area of a painting where no detail should be painted... but of course I may be wrong on that.. Can you provide me with more information.

At the moment, I have no working microphone so I am unable to raise my hand and ask a question.

I am looking forward to tonights class. If one submits a painting to be critiqued is the painting to be from the subject of the previous night's class? and how do we go about submitting it to you?

Cheers,

Gail
Please ask the no fly zone question in the forum again tonight. Mail submissions to:
[email protected]

JimS
12-10-2010, 10:23 AM
Hi Gail,

You don't need a microphone to take part.

You should see a text box on the right of your screen or a small red box with an arrow. Clicking on it will open the text box and you can type your question to Johannes, real time!

Hope that helps

Jim

ZanBarrage
12-10-2010, 11:03 AM
Jo (AKA Wikileakes),

I want to take a moment to acknowledge that what you are sharing with us is more than just tips and tricks. These are the knots and bolts and key "secrets". Some are simple and most of should know them but a reminder is never enough while others are things I am hearing for the first time.

I have to tell you I am always late because I commute from work and get home about an hour or more after you start. For catchup, I am indebted to the members here and espcially to Robert and his notes. I feel like the lazy kid who always borrows someone elses notes at school :)

I have not had any time to implement ANY of the learning yet which is a shame. Work - Jo - Sleep - work - Jo - Sleep so far. But I can't wait to get brush to canvas this weekend.

ZanBarrage
12-10-2010, 11:19 AM
I find UB tends towards red (blue violet) which is warmer than Pthal Blue which tends towards Green (Blue Green) Being the coldest. Cerl. Blue tends towards Yellow so also warm actually to imitate cerl blue from UB just add lemon yellow and white.

Strawberry Wine
12-10-2010, 11:44 AM
Thanks Johannes and Jim

Cheers,

Gail

susanc
12-10-2010, 12:14 PM
If you ever see an older middle-aged woman with her foot in her mouth, say "Hi, Susan," because it will undoubtedly be me. I don't plan to offend, but I'm going to walk a very delicate line here. This thread, the webinars and also the people participating here have seemed truly exceptional to me. Seeing others echo this creates a overwhelming sense of awe that it's not just me--I really had the good fortune to stumble into a little piece of art heaven. I want to protect it and nurture it, and to encourage and help everyone and I hope that's ultimately what comes across in this message.

Compared to the long history of art, color theory is a bit of a newcomer. It's difficult to relate to the excitement and wonder that the Impressionists must have felt as color science evolved and opened up during their lifetimes. Supposedly, many artists would go out to paint with Ogden Rood's 1879 book, "Modern Chromatics" (http://books.google.com/books?id=IyAaAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Ogden+rood+%22modern+Chromatics%22&source=bl&ots=EsNtUKpxl-&sig=kVFMr2hEFf3VMuMSTj0yeoN_7Og&hl=en&ei=plICTeyBJImWsgOQstX4DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false), tucked under their arm, consulting it almost like a Bible, adapting his theories into their painting methods. And there were also several other color theorists that artists consulted and read.

I don't know, maybe the relative newness of color science accounts for this, maybe the amount of people working individually outside the traditional art ateliers on it, or maybe it's just subjective choice, but it really surprised me and confused me to find that art books written by competent, well-known artists do contain conflicting theories about color temperature. I always thought there should be only one answer, like in math, for color principles.

I personally tend to see ultramarine as cool, but everyone has the freedom to disagree. For example, Stephen Quiller's Color Choices: Making Color Sense Out of Color (Which Nita Leland (http://www.nitaleland.com/books/colorbooks.htm) described as a "good book") says on p. 22:
"Blue colors to the left of pthalo cyanine blue, such as cobalt blue, ultramarine blue, and ultramarine violet have increasing touches of red as they move toward the primary red, which is alizarin crimson. They are referred to as warm blues, or 'red' blues."

So, I'm sure we'll encounter people here who were taught one way, and some the other. Maybe this will have to end up being a case of "paint what you see" rather than "use this particular blue color because it it warm" or maybe of "do what's best for the painting"? I just wanted to show that there is a very good reason for all the confusion about blue...because there are conflicting books out there, it would be surprising if there wasn't! any confusion or disagreement in here.

susanc
12-10-2010, 12:25 PM
Newbie here. Colleen, what does "LMHI crits" mean?

thanks, Susan
I really agree with with what you said. It can be encouraging to get a pat on the back, but it's much more helpful to find out what you can do to improve. That's my goal in being here.

LarrySeiler
12-10-2010, 12:34 PM
Whenever a shape is cropped or partially blocked in a painting sends the message, " You are not that important". Whenever you show a shape such as evergreens in their entirety it will send a message that they are important. So you play the game....

simple...well put!

susanc
12-10-2010, 12:37 PM
Sorry, one more thing before I drag myself away to draw snails, worms and caterpillars! One of my favorite things that Johannes said Wednesday--

"You don't need to have talent to be a good artist because you can drive yourself in learning and working, but if you have it, obviously it makes it easier. But it's not essential."

My first art teacher in college said something similar on the 1st day of school. "Someone with less talent can pass you by in a hurry if you don't apply yourself."


Back to my bugs--sigh
Susan

winecountry
12-10-2010, 12:50 PM
I thank you for this critique, and so sorry you had to type it, I didn't send it because I thought it not really worth your time yet, was just so excited for the first time to a actually create a composition out of the chaos of our coast line and that is all due to your teaching

I liked your piece posted in wetcanvas. Personally like foggy scenes that have some color in it, not just grey. I tend to make them somewhat into a warm lavender. I slightly changed your scene from sepia to that lavender.

in real life there is much more warm than the photo shows, I think in redoing it I will punch up the jade of the water to give more visual play in color, I like to try and see more than one color in the fog, when I'm out there it changes a lot from warm to cool but it takes about 20 min of looking for the eyes to attune to the subtle tones, in the future I'm going to make notes and play with it, I don't like fog paintings that have one over all tone to it, they are fine at first look, very lovely, but like eating too much of one taste after a while.

If you place the rocks somewhat touching each other and overlapping the shapes scattered shapes will become a unit a read better. I am sure you wanted to use the stones as a visual path but we have to hop scotch rather than eye flow to get to where you are leading us.

Yes and too contrived, I find the space now too empty of visual interest, so one way would be to make the water more playful in the new space.


I also changed the tops of several stones to vary their angles and create a more melodic line across the tops of the stones. The way you had them, there were repeated pyramid shapes. Remeber always check your cloning. the left brain (the enemy) will creep in when you least expect it.

they look better now but I think there is more about this that I can do to make it even more lovely to look at, I'm so amazed at Clydes's work on this magic he works, and mine has a clodhopper feel compared to what he does.

. I attached another version where some of the sky is cropped out. Remember we spoke about budgeting the masses so the eye can stay focused in a predominant mass. I feel the sky mass was stealing some attention away. See what you think.

I had already seen that and I've cropped it even more than you did, thanks for that one thing alone gives me so much help, but have to get the message deeper into the subconcious, I know it but don't do it naturally yet.

If you glaze with alizarin crimson that will chnage the temperature. I also gradated the sky for more interest.

Not a fan of AC....but may try some Florentine Lake, or may use some lovely Michael Harding yellow ocher deep that is an amazing clear and transparent tinter.

Johannes, you are an angel and what you are showing me will be the foundation of my work as a landscape painter and spills into my other work as well. I could never express the gratitude I feel for your gift to us. I am not a workshop attendee, as you can see I argue with the teacher too much to be an obedient student:lol: and it is disruptive to be this way in a workshop situation.

So with respect to your skills and way of seeing, I don't discard anything you say I test it then see the results, if I get better results it becomes part of my own way. There is something extraordinary in the light here in the No Cal coast, I'm after that, and so far it's only come in small glimpses and a couple of pa paintings of the hundreds I've done., I think color is the most personal part of art, as I've been painting 40 years my eye has developed in unique ways a beginner's eye has not. So I will have to go my own way and find that magic that has so far eluded me. The other problem is the tones are so subtle that the camera is missing about 40% of the paler shifts so you are not seeing what I'm painting....I wonder if I should punch it up even more, and that's why I asked for samples from Clyde, thanks for sending them.

Again many thanks for the critique, when I do something that really deserves your time I'll email it, and leave you open for all the many many people who are sending you work and may not have had as much time with you as me. Promise if I do something really fine, I'll crow like a rooster.

crazywoman53
12-10-2010, 01:01 PM
I just wanted to take a few minutes to thank you for the class again last night. This is the best Christmas present I could ever ask for! From reading all the posts it is obvious there is such a great need for instruction and an even greater desire to really learn the basics plus all the nuggets and insight only experience can bring to an accomplished artist and instructor. Robert..thanks again for your wonderful notes. I'm looking forward to another night even though like many others at the end of the work day there isn't time left to paint, that time will come with renewed insight.

odieO
12-10-2010, 04:19 PM
HI, this is a painting I did on site in Jackson Hole. I tweeked it when I got home some. These sessions are serving to refresh and add to my knowledge of Landscape painting, for the last two years I have been concentrating on Portraits and Still lifes.
I posted this but I can't upload the photo.
Sorry.
S.
www.shirleyflinn.com (http://www.shirleyflinn.com)

winecountry
12-10-2010, 05:02 PM
Let Me Have It, no holds barred, you don't have to be nice, you can be honest about the reaction to the painting, good or not so good.

Ruthie57
12-10-2010, 05:32 PM
Re blues....I have no training/teaching at all on colour theory and hardly ever use paint, being a pastel freak. But I was surprised to hear that many consider a green/blue to be cooler than a violet/blue.
My completely uneducated mind says ultramarine...blue with a hint of red, is cooold and any blue which edges over towards green is not as cold.

winecountry
12-10-2010, 05:55 PM
I don't know, maybe the relative newness of color science accounts for this, maybe the amount of people working individually outside the traditional art ateliers on it, or maybe it's just subjective choice, but it really surprised me and confused me to find that art books written by competent, well-known artists do contain conflicting theories about color temperature. I always thought there should be only one answer, like in math, for color principles.


Temperature is always subjective, and not easy to quantify....the best system to make it "scientific" and precise, so for instance you and I could talk about the same color and be precise, is to use the Munsell description (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system) . We would not talk about Ultramarine Blue we would say Purple Blue 74.6 ( hue) 9.9 (Chroma) 3.1 ( value) and we'd both be saying the exact same thing, even if we didn't see the tube of color. ( no I haven't memorized the chart I looked it up in my book)

Munsell was an artist at the time of the new color theories, and his system over 100 years old is now the industry( all industry and manufacture), in soil science( so precise it can be used in the field to identify different strata), and is the standard world wide. As a painter if you are interested try looking at the RationalPainting.org site and all the info is there, if you are interested in learning enough to be plenty for a painter, don't buy the $600 Munsell chip book, get the Student book. After years and systems of color theory, it is the single most important information I've had. Gamblin has a sort of simplified system of this called the Color Space.

Some artists balk at to precise or go into overwhelm but it is understandable with a bit of effort and took me only a month or so to get the basics, I don't talk about temperature anymore unless in my own work, I think of hue chroma value, and only use temp when I have to talk to some other artist who only has that to speak from, that's because temp is a relationship to it's surroundings, what's warm one place can be cool another, and as you see people have different feelings about what "warm" and "cool" is.

B4painter
12-10-2010, 06:06 PM
I joined in the webinar last Sat. with Joahannes, and just finally got a few minutes to check out this forum. Thanks to the people who have posted their notes and also to Joahannes for doing the teaching! Can anyone tell me if there is another webinar tomorrow? or when the next one will be.

sundiver
12-10-2010, 06:32 PM
I joined in the webinar last Sat. with Joahannes, and just finally got a few minutes to check out this forum. Thanks to the people who have posted their notes and also to Joahannes for doing the teaching! Can anyone tell me if there is another webinar tomorrow? or when the next one will be.


According to post #181 there is one tonight, going on now.

ZanBarrage
12-10-2010, 08:07 PM
Ruthie,

If you look at a colour wheel the violet blue is moving towards red so cooler than green blue which is moving towards green. Yellow blue (cerulean) is the one closer to yellow and therefore warner as well

Marty C
12-10-2010, 08:38 PM
Temperature is always subjective, and not easy to quantify....the best system to make it "scientific" and precise, so for instance you and I could talk about the same color and be precise, is to use the Munsell description (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system) . We would not talk about Ultramarine Blue we would say Purple Blue 74.6 ( hue) 9.9 (Chroma) 3.1 ( value) and we'd both be saying the exact same thing, even if we didn't see the tube of color.

Well put, Colleen. Colour has long and often been discussed and described in terms of temperature, but that by nature must be imprecise, and will mean different things to different people and in different contexts.

Using the three characteristics of colour, Hue, Value and Chroma, and understanding what each of them mean, will allow far greater control of colour, improve your work tremendously in terms of colour, and provide for far clearer communication. This is every bit as important as the tremendous composition and design techniques provided by Johannes.

VladK
12-10-2010, 08:55 PM
Johannes, thank you so much for your effort. This is a great idea and I learned a lot already, just need to practice :) This is really unique approach and your painting analysys open eyes to different world, never seen before. Now when I look at my paintings, I see what I missed and what I did wrong.

Thank you again and I hope you can continue your mission.

Robert, and your notes are exceptional. Thank you too for posting them.

Grainne
12-10-2010, 09:22 PM
Another phenomenal session this evening! :clap: :clap: :clap:

The fantastic thing about Johannes is that he is able to give critique about various media, and is very careful to address the watercolorists in the room as he is working on an oil or a pastel, pointing out how you would handle the given principle in the other media.

I feel really blessed to have been given this opportunity.

Sure hope that F&W/Artists Network pick up on this opportunity too, to provide this kind of more immediate instruction in such a unique way. I've bought their DVDs and subscribed to their videos, read their magazines and books, but nothing has created the "learning explosion" for me like these sessions which Johannes has done.

As an educator myself, I know that you must never underestimate the value of the teacher being able to interact with the learner for maximum learning to take place. I can envision this kind of instruction being done in several ways, from watching him paint and problem-solve "live" and being able to ask questions to having live critique sessions like he's been doing, but with paint as well as Photoshop.

This is definitely an idea whose time has come! And I for one would be willing to pay a subscription fee to be able to do this on an ongoing basis. Much more so than to pay a fee to merely watch DVDs.


Grainne

robertsloan2
12-10-2010, 09:23 PM
Thank you, Johannes! I was wondering what I could do with that orange mountain and blue sky - and I didn't even think of using violet shadows no matter how much I love them. That's going to come out so much better. Here's my painting as it stands now. I'll post the new version when I rework it.

I also saved the screen shot of your suggestions and can just see how the violet shadows and new contours will look, plus the peach in the clouds echoing the orange. It'll be beautiful.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Dec-2010/70184-Dec-Western-SW-Challenge-Arches.jpg

This is just the "Before." I love all of the suggestions and since it's gouache, I can definitely make the changes. I've even got an idea of how I might get the sky looking right and still soft and wet on that side.

By the way, the page numbers on my previous notes are only what page it is in my Sketchbook Project journal. The first 46 pages were other subjects, many of them sketch illustrations of my November novel project, others WDE images, Scavenger Hunt sketches and other projects. There are no missing Johannes Vloorthuis notes pages, though if I can get to watch the first lecture's recording I'll definitely make notes on that too!

Here's the first three pages of my notes for tonight:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-10-1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-10-2.jpg

My shack got too tall, so I turned it into an outhouse to use the proportions for what they are.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-10-3.jpg

robertsloan2
12-10-2010, 09:26 PM
Second three pages of my notes for December 10th:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-10-4.jpg

Sorry no pictures on this one.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-10-5.jpg

Sketched the tree fading lighter as the branches got smaller and weighted toward the picture rather than the edge.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Dec-10-6.jpg

robertsloan2
12-10-2010, 09:45 PM
I might be late to class tomorrow.

We're going out to pick out our family Christmas tree at a tree farm that has a hay ride and caroling and hot chocolate and lots of special stuff. We're going at around one in the afternoon with both grandkids, it's a whole family event that's my Christmas present to the family. This has been planned for weeks.

We're trying to go at a time that I'll be back here in front of my computer at 4pm Central (5pm Eastern) but if anything slows it up (frequency of hayrides, traffic, you name it) I could be late to class.

Please, everyone else try to take notes especially before I arrive. I know I might miss some of it and I love this class. I don't want to miss the cool things that went on before I arrived entirely, so please, everyone jot down the important stuff Johannes is saying. I don't expect little sketches like mine or anything, but if you take screen captures and post them that'd be great.

Thank you. Wish I could be there consistently but sometimes a six year old granddaughter and four year old grandson do take priority.

aolaranora
12-10-2010, 10:47 PM
Thank You, Robert!

Great notes from another great session!

antgeek
12-11-2010, 12:44 AM
I was able to attend tonite's webinar, yay! it is so helpful to watch Johannes make changes on paintings that were sent in for critique, really brings home the concepts he speaks about.
And I am still copying Robert's notes cuz they are more detailed than my own!
Good night all...

nvcricket
12-11-2010, 12:46 AM
Thank you so much for your generosity Johannes!

I thought I'd share a few thoughts about tonight's class (Friday 12/10/10)...
I was very impressed with the critiques that were done. Not only were you able to critique the paintings (from novice to advanced) but you were able to enhance every one of them. You transformed them from good to great, from flat to dimensional, from bland to vibrant, all with the limited tool of powerpoint. If class were in person I can just see you digging your brush into the palate and making corrections. You have incredible skills both with your knowledge of painting landscapes, and with the computer. Then you would further enhance these corrections by showing examples of how professional artists resolve these dilemmas. You also made many references to recommended landscape books. Thank you for giving the time to actually type out their names and the book titles. I'm putting the Drawing Landscapes in Pencil by Ferdinand Petrie, and Drawing Landscapes by Frank Rhines on my Xmas list! All these "nuggets of knowledge" I can absorb and look at my own work with a more critical eye. Thank you.

Get rid of the straight lines - was a common theme. Use of melodic line as described in Roberts incredible notes. This "nugget" gives us the ability to use artistic license to force the viewer to amble into a painting, not to rush right up to the "focal area".
Transition, transition, transition - Three transitions in a background, the last transition should be a lavender color. Transition everything!!! darker to lighter, or gradate color temp ( two of the many the examples were a roof and the side of a barn) Transition shadows! They should be darker toward the base of the object then lighter as it lengthens, place some sky color into the shadow. A great example was given with shadows in snow. Here's another "nugget" ...Great snow paintings will have at the very edge of a shadow a hint of orange or pink. This transition using a warm color causes vibration. The color of lavandar behind green trees also causes a vibration. Transition the sky, transition the kitchen sink. (just kidding about the kitchen sink).
Shadows, sun patches, sky holes - If there is a path in a painting and it is leading the viewer out of the painting a cast shadow will work. While you are at it throw some light patches in the shadows. Here is another "nugget" The smaller a patch (or tree hole)-the darker the value, the bigger the patch-the lighter the value.

It was nice to recognize a bunch of my mates from the pastel forum participating in this class. I will make every effort to attend Saturday (tomorrow)12/11/10. You promise us snow....tis the season. I'm ready!

Again, thank you :thumbsup:

Carol

:smug: I am a recreational painter- just for the pure sheer enjoyment.

winecountry
12-11-2010, 03:31 AM
thanks for another intense session....great notes from Robert, one great advantage is I can read his writing better than my own:lol:

Hoping for snow tomorrow...:thumbsup:

edtree
12-11-2010, 06:55 AM
Johannes...I know I'm pretty quiet in the tutorials, but I am in attendance every night. I appreciate so much your sharing your knowledge, your resources and your sense of humor. Loved the reference to the robot on Lost In Space last night by the way - great way to illustrate the point for those of us (like me) who are from that era. You do this often and it DOES help to remember the things you're teaching us.

I have to say too, one of the (many many) things that has been especially helpful to me is your showing us the importance of studying other artist's paintings. I’ve spent a couple hours this morning on Clyde's and Scott's web sites looking with new eyes, at the paintings. Before, if I wanted to paint say an evergreen tree, I would have looked for photo references and tried to make it look real. Because of you, I now know that the most important thing is not to make it look real, but to make it look good.

There are not enough words to express my gratitude for what you are doing for me...for us. These classes are providing the opportunity for us to take our painting to a higher level. It would be interesting to know just how many lives you change because of your generosity. Thanks for teaching us to see, so brilliantly. :heart:

Elizabeth

edtree
12-11-2010, 07:03 AM
I might be late to class tomorrow.

We're going out to pick out our family Christmas tree at a tree farm that has a hay ride and caroling and hot chocolate and lots of special stuff. We're going at around one in the afternoon with both grandkids, it's a whole family event that's my Christmas present to the family. This has been planned for weeks.

We're trying to go at a time that I'll be back here in front of my computer at 4pm Central (5pm Eastern) but if anything slows it up (frequency of hayrides, traffic, you name it) I could be late to class.

Please, everyone else try to take notes especially before I arrive. I know I might miss some of it and I love this class. I don't want to miss the cool things that went on before I arrived entirely, so please, everyone jot down the important stuff Johannes is saying. I don't expect little sketches like mine or anything, but if you take screen captures and post them that'd be great.

Thank you. Wish I could be there consistently but sometimes a six year old granddaughter and four year old grandson do take priority.

:wave: Robert - your holiday adventure sounds wonderful! What an awesome gift for you to give your entire family. We will miss your beautiful notes of course, but this is a very important event. Though perhaps not as eloquently, maybe we can all share the responsibility for notes tonight. I can’t illustrate like you, but I can jot. J Thank you for all you do.

Elizabeth

appydax
12-11-2010, 07:59 AM
Johannes, I am another being totally silent.
I haven't yet done a landscape painting but that looks all set to change now :crossfingers:
I am learning just so much, but one thing you said really punches through for me. *Values do the work, colour gets the credit* :thumbsup:
I am not only learning, but seeing more as a result, each time I get quicker at seeing on the critiques where adjustment can be made.
You have a knack of explaining and showing what can be done, with enthusiasm and without knocking the artists confidence and showing in such a way that we can all benefit by the knowledge.

I too also appreciate Robert's notes, visual and accurate as a reminder.
Have a great day with the grandkids Robert....but hurry home :D

Sharron

Strawberry Wine
12-11-2010, 10:05 AM
Great lesson last night Johannes. Thanks !

Not sure what tonight's lesson plan is but unfortunately I will not be glued to my monitor as we have a previous engagement in Toronto and no Internet access.

Johannes, Wondering if at some point you could demo a painting or provide a photo and we could all paint the same image. for your critique. Our interpretations of what to "take out", leave in, change, the choice of medium etc. would be varied and interesting.

Barbara your street scene with the church in it was lovely. I would hang it on my wall in a minute. The scene seems very familiar. Can you tell me where the location is?

I will check back in late this evening.

Cheers,

Gail

Esmeralinda
12-11-2010, 10:08 AM
Robert, your days sounds Divine :heart: Thank you sooooo much for the notes.

Johannes, you are one of a kind ! A very big Thank you for your professionalism and enthousiasm !

I won't be able to attend this pm....:( So I'll see you and all on Monday's session !

Take care all :wave:

Judibelle
12-11-2010, 10:15 AM
...Another 'silent' attendee here...(Havent figured out how to respond with notes...) But have been avidly watching each night's wonderful gems.

My landscapes have mostly been done with not much planning. Now I see why they often dont work.
Havent had a chance to try any of this knowledge out yet, but hope to soon!
Thank you, Johannes, for sharing your vast knowledge with us, and thanks to Robert for his wonderful re-caps!
Judi

Colorix
12-11-2010, 10:40 AM
Johannes, Wondering if at some point you could demo a painting or provide a photo and we could all paint the same image. for your critique. Our interpretations of what to "take out", leave in, change, the choice of medium etc. would be varied and interesting.
Gail

I second Gail, that would be interesting, it is always fascinating how different artists interpret the same scene, and if we all have struggled with it, we'd know it intimately and would soak up the advice even better.

Me too, I'm usually quiet in the lessons. All my focus is on seeing and hearing, and flipping the brain between left and right mode (both seeing it works, and also understanding verbally why it works). No room in the head for chewing gum and walking down stairs at the same time. :) Plus, classes go on until 3 am... (my time).

Paula Ford
12-11-2010, 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by Strawberry Wine
Johannes, Wondering if at some point you could demo a painting or provide a photo and we could all paint the same image. for your critique. Our interpretations of what to "take out", leave in, change, the choice of medium etc. would be varied and interesting.
Gail
Oh yes, that sounds like fun!

appydax
12-11-2010, 11:08 AM
Although I am a silent one, I too would love to participate if it was possible.

Sharron

Chrisp47
12-11-2010, 11:18 AM
Johannes, Wondering if at some point you could demo a painting or provide a photo and we could all paint the same image. for your critique. Our interpretations of what to "take out", leave in, change, the choice of medium etc. would be varied and interesting.
Gail

I agree this would be lots of fun and informative.

Johannes Instructor
12-11-2010, 11:30 AM
Ok, I can see that there is popular demand for a live painting demo. I will do this this Sunday at 2 PM EST until completion. I will announce to you all the link to see the video tonight. I'm going to paint while some people from the Ontario Plein Air Painters association of Ontario will be watching so i will take advantage to broadcast the video to you all.
Once again there are 187 people registered for these classes and it is growing, growing, growing. If you are in the webinar and no longer paying attention please exist to allow more to come in.

robertsloan2
12-11-2010, 11:31 AM
Great lesson last night Johannes. Thanks !

Johannes, Wondering if at some point you could demo a painting or provide a photo and we could all paint the same image. for your critique. Our interpretations of what to "take out", leave in, change, the choice of medium etc. would be varied and interesting.

Gail

That'd be great.

Johannes, there are several good references posted for the December Landscape Challenge that might make good starting points. I looked over them yesterday when I did the Western & Southwestern Challenge photo with the red rocks at Arches Cliffs. Not one of them has a good composition as it stands. Every one of the December Landscape Challenge paintings would need rearranging - so they'd make good candidates in my opinion.

They all also have interesting scenes with a lot of cool things in them that have natural musical lines. They're just good references demanding that you pay attention to your own composition and choose your elements.

Johannes Instructor
12-11-2010, 11:46 AM
Robert it is very rare to find a photo that needs no modification at all. This is why I am writing a book.

Johannes Instructor
12-11-2010, 11:55 AM
Colleen I worked on your painting a bit more by darking the sand by the foam to connect better to the rocks. I also desaturated it a bit more.

B4painter
12-11-2010, 12:10 PM
Thanks Wendy for letting me know about last night's session.
Roberta and Johannes
Would it be OK if I passed the notes onto the Edmonton Art Club please?
I'd like to put them in my own words and have them published in our monthly newsletter. Please reply via these posts and I'll keep checkin, them. Thanks

Johannes Instructor
12-11-2010, 12:19 PM
Thanks Wendy for letting me know about last night's session.
Roberta and Johannes
Would it be OK if I passed the notes onto the Edmonton Art Club please?
I'd like to put them in my own words and have them published in our monthly newsletter. Please reply via these posts and I'll keep checkin, them. Thanks

yes under two conditions. I promised I would not work aside wetcanvas. So you can use the notes if:
1. Give Robert Sloan and I the credit the credit . Robert will have to approve that though.
2. You advertise these online classes on behalf of wetcanvas and you give them the link to the wetcanvas this forum and thread so they can sign up and key in, There are about 100 members of that organization and it would be great if they can become part of this fast growing movement.

B4painter
12-11-2010, 12:32 PM
Hi Johannes, Yes, by all means, I will wait until I hear from Robert - and I was wondering if you could post the actual links for me, so I get them correct please. Then I give you both all the credit! You may have to find a new bigger computer if they all come to see what's happening here LOL.
Thanks again, I too have learnt so much from these sessions. I am currently working on my large painting to make some of the improvements from what I've learnt then I'll post it for your critique.
Oh yes, wanted to say I've emailed Jennifer too say how much these sessions mean to me too.

sundiver
12-11-2010, 12:39 PM
I think that THE ARTIST MAGAZINE company would do very well because of all their advertising power to have live and interactive classes such as I am doing with the critiques and all. It is all set up. Maybe someone from their magazine will take notice and drop by to see the potential of these classes and decide to institute this as part of their services. That way they have the videos they can sell, the magazine and the live classes. Personally once I'm done on December 22 they would be wasting an opportunity if this fades out. I for one would be willing to collaborate with them on something permanent.

Since an F&W staff member, sallspaw, posted here and apparently joined in the other night, they are aware of this, so we'll wait to hear from them. They'll know all the legal and technical issues involved. They did have a live presentation by Richard McKinley recently but it wasn't so interactive.
In the meantime, let's do the next-best-thing.

Expecting Johannes to edit all those hours into 10-minute YouTube segments would not be reasonable, especially considering all the hours of his time he has already given WC!
Would someone please start a new Webinars thread on Monday. Then I'll copy this past week's thread into our mod/guide room and edit out all the non-specific chitchat to make a new, meat-and-potatoes thread which will then go into the Landscapes Hall of Fame (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403318). (The original thread will be untouched.)
So if Robert and the rest of you keep posting all those wonderful summaries, screenshots and diagrams we'll have collected a wealth of information that all members can access. If Johannes critiques one of your paintings, hopefully you can take a screenshot and post it with a summary of the crit and what you learned. We can make an edited Hall-of-Fame thread for each week's set of webinars
I'm going to try to attend a few Webinars myself but will be at least an hour late on weeknights. I'm certainly enjoying all the stuff you have all been posting!

Colorix
12-11-2010, 12:46 PM
To comment in the webinar, there is a separate little window called something like "control panel". It shrinks automatically to a tiny oblong (on my computer it is to the top right of the screen). It has a very red arrow pointing to it, click on the arrow to enlarge the control panel.

The control panel has a section for "Ask question of staff" with a typing window. In this case 'staff' = Johannes.

Microphone: Johannes may give you the microphone. If you try and isn't heard, you may have to 'un-mute' yourself. I accidentally discovered one way of doing it: At the top of the control panel, there is a link called something like 'sound check'. I opened it, and then clicked closed, and it told me I was on the mic, but still muted at the receiving end, as the group is muted. Only Johannes can un-mute on that end.

Barbara01
12-11-2010, 12:54 PM
I attended the webinar last night for the first time, but had to pop out for an hour or so, but returned to find that you were still hard at work. Talk about dedication!

You mentioned that it would be very difficult to find this kind of information in most art classes, which is true. I'm one of those people who has a fine art degree and never encountered such in-depth painting instruction, in part because the classes were so large and painting styles so diverse, making it very difficult for the teacher to cover everything.

What you're offering in a very valuable learning experience that goes above and beyond standard offerings that people need to learn in order to further their artistic endeavours. I hope to see you continue your work in beyond the month.

I'll be sure to pop in to the webinar again tonight and again on the Sunday painting demos when I can do so. I'm finding that much of the information you offer has been taught to me at some point but not at this depth with such a hands-on demonstration.

Very impressive stuff! Btw, this may sound like a silly question and forgive me if it's been mentioned before, but are you an art teacher as well?

Johannes Instructor
12-11-2010, 01:11 PM
I attended the webinar last night for the first time, but had to pop out for an hour or so, but returned to find that you were still hard at work. Talk about dedication!

You mentioned that it would be very difficult to find this kind of information in most art classes, which is true. I'm one of those people who has a fine art degree and never encountered such in-depth painting instruction, in part because the classes were so large and painting styles so diverse, making it very difficult for the teacher to cover everything.

What you're offering in a very valuable learning experience that goes above and beyond standard offerings that people need to learn in order to further their artistic endeavours. I hope to see you continue your work in beyond the month.

I'll be sure to pop in to the webinar again tonight and again on the Sunday painting demos when I can do so. I'm finding that much of the information you offer has been taught to me at some point but not at this depth with such a hands-on demonstration.

Very impressive stuff! Btw, this may sound like a silly question and forgive me if it's been mentioned before, but are you an art teacher as well?

Barbara thats because these little nuggets are not around except in the hands of a few. Most top artists don't have the time or the demenor to go into all the details. They also protect their own interests by holding on to these concepts and just realease a few in workshops. There are around 150 secrets to landscape painting. Some of these have been revealed in this thread already. I only take students now and then. Several people have asked me for mentorship. If I do this it has to be with artists that are very dedicated. The reason I got involved is that I noticed people expressing that they would like to know Clyde Aspevig's techniques. He is the top landscape artist in the USA. I know his techniques and I know how he thinks. So when I saw the thread where people were expressing great interest I got involved and spoke about one of his main approaches to landscape painting. For some reason the threads grew in interest so I kept on giving out more. I never expected it to reach these levels. After seeing the eagerness I decided to put some of my time to good use and decided to start webinar courses in the evening.
You can see some of my work at this link:

http://cyberartlearning.com/onlinegallery

I guess artists are too intelligent to watch the dumb content on TV which has gone into these ridiculous reality shows or celebrity worhshipping. So instead of watching TV they are putting their time into creativity and are expressing themselves with art. They have tapped into what makes us happy that many in the world have not found. Look at all the rich famous people on drugs. I applaud my fellow artists that they are more awake than most of the world sleepers numbed by politics and TV. I am getting philosophical here and off track so i will stop now.
Welcome aboard Barbara!

Deborah Secor
12-11-2010, 01:30 PM
Would someone please start a new Webinars thread on Monday. Then I'll copy this past week's thread into our mod/guide room and edit out all the non-specific chitchat to make a new, meat-and-potatoes thread which will then go into the Landscapes Hall of Fame (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403318). (The original thread will be untouched.)
So if Robert and the rest of you keep posting all those wonderful summaries, screenshots and diagrams we'll have collected a wealth of information that all members can access. If Johannes critiques one of your paintings, hopefully you can take a screenshot and post it with a summary of the crit and what you learned. We can make an edited Hall-of-Fame thread for each week's set of webinars

Yay! Thanks Wendy. That would be a terrific resource for all of us.

Does anyone know if there's a particular topic for today? I wasn't able to attend yesterday for very long, so if it was discussed I missed it.

Thanks again, Johannes! I hope you're blessed as a result of all you're giving. :D

Dougwas
12-11-2010, 01:50 PM
Deborah- I think tonights topic is "Snow." I am looking forward to it, because I am surrounded by the stuff.

Doug

crazywoman53
12-11-2010, 02:58 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed the session last night. I haven't had time to paint today as you (Johannes) requested. I needed to do firewood today in preparation of the next cold session next week. I live up in the mountains where high speed internet is not available and guess I am lucky to have a phone. Does anyone else participating use dial up internet connections? So I don't know if dial up will be fast enough tonight to watch but I am certainly going to try. I have been staying in my office in town at night to watch all week. So I do hope someone takes notes in case I can't see what is going on. Robert thanks again for posting your notes!!! I too would be up for a group painting lesson.

robertsloan2
12-11-2010, 04:21 PM
B4painter - yes, thank you for including my notes. Sure, just credit me for them. If you want to include the link to my oil pastels site too (it's in my signature), I'd appreciate that. I agree with Johannes that adding the link to WetCanvas and this forum and thread so people can find out about it too would rock.

I haven't had time to rework my gouache painting yet, today was too busy with the hayride and tree buying. We got a fantastic tree, it's gorgeous. They even threw in great armloads of greenery to make wreaths and garlands with, so I'll have a wreath up in my room to give it a good holiday pine scent.

My cat waited at the door till I came home and then trotted upstairs next to me, he's purring and curled up on the bed. So I'm here with plenty of time to take notes from the top of the webinar tonight. Yay!

Johannes Instructor
12-11-2010, 04:43 PM
Thanks Wendy for letting me know about last night's session.
Roberta and Johannes
Would it be OK if I passed the notes onto the Edmonton Art Club please?
I'd like to put them in my own words and have them published in our monthly newsletter. Please reply via these posts and I'll keep checkin, them. Thanks

Barbara you have green light from both of us to post Robert's notes in the Edmonton Art Club newsletter.

yes under two conditions. I promised I would not work aside wetcanvas. So you can use the notes if:
1. Give Robert Sloan and I the credit the credit . Robert will have to approve that though.

2. You advertise these online classes on behalf of wetcanvas and you give them the link to the wetcanvas this forum and thread so they can sign up and key in, There are about 100 members of that organization and it would be great if they can become part of this fast growing movement.

RPut
12-11-2010, 06:03 PM
Wow!!! I am not able to participate in the webinair, but sure am soaking up all the discussions and notes here! Thank you sooooo much for all the sharing, the amazing generousity, and the opportunity to learn from such talented artists and teachers!

Barbara01
12-11-2010, 09:49 PM
Another good session tonight but unfortunately I had to leave since there is a good migraine buildings with that impending storm that you mentioned.

Agreed 100% about the tv nonsense, I don't turn the thing on much anymore, there are many better things to do such as learning to paint artistically!

I took many notes and a few screen captures from the last couple nights if you or anyone else would fine useful. Let me know and I'll post them to this thread or where-ever.

Thanks again for all the wonderful info.

crazywoman53
12-11-2010, 09:58 PM
I would appreciate anything anyone has to post. My dialup internet service was too slow. Couldn't see any images and the voices were just bits and pieces .. :(//// I'll pick back up on Mon from the office.

Johannes Instructor
12-11-2010, 10:40 PM
Message to all:

Please ignore the webinar message you are getting for 5 PM EST tomorrow. I will start the webcam demo at 2 PM not 5 PM. until topic is exhuasted.

Strawberry Wine
12-11-2010, 10:45 PM
Hi there !

We just got in from Toronto where we celebrated my MIL 89th birthday so I did not get a chance to see any of the webinar tonight..

Did someone say the topic was snow... Geeze I was really looking forward to that one.. Missed the one on evergreens as well :( I do have Robert's notes though.. :) Thanks again Robert !!!

Johannes did you post the link to your demo video for tomorrow (Sunday) at 2 p.m. during class tonight ? If so could you or anyone else post it here in this thread as well. Please and thanks. I am going to get all my chores done before 2 tomorrow afternoon.

Cheers,

Gail

robertsloan2
12-11-2010, 10:49 PM
Twelve pages of notes. They do include the URL for tomorrow's video demo that starts at 2pm Eastern (1PM Central) and will run till the topic's exhausted or Johannes is.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-1.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-2.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-3.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-4.jpg

robertsloan2
12-11-2010, 10:51 PM
Second batch of notes. Tonight he did list both his Oils Palette colors and Watercolor Palette colors for those (like me) who'd like to fill out our collections of paint to include the pigments he finds most useful. They're in the third batch. (Edit)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-5.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-6.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-7.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-8.jpg

robertsloan2
12-11-2010, 10:54 PM
Third batch of notes:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-9.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-10.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-11.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/70184-Class-Notes-Dec-11-12.jpg

winecountry
12-11-2010, 11:03 PM
Let it snow Let it snow Let it snow ( but not where I live:lol: ) I now have all I need to paint it. Thank you Johannes:thumbsup: ..... It was a lot, Robert was there for most of it, so I'll just put in a few things
•Snowscapes have one more value mass than regular landscape 4 instead of 3, and they tend to be high key.

•creating rest areas in front of the focal area makes a painting less busy

• White= silence in music, find creative ways to make the blank snow areas visually interesting with cast shadows etc.

•Snow shadows, don't mix colbalt and white and expect a good painting, tho that is what you may see, so emphasize the reflected colors in the shadows

• the crest of the hill of snow is getting reflected sky color it's bluer, what ever is 90 degrees to the sun gets full intensity light and will be the lightest white in the painting, he demoed this Aspevig to show this one also has where he was showing you'd get reflected light in the snow from the trees and then where only the tree would reflect right underneath so the snow would be greenish there. There are only 3 sources of light, the sun, the sky and reflected light, all three are in this workhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2010/103030-3.jpg

winecountry
12-11-2010, 11:09 PM
I have to go out of town tomorrow, so take good notes and have a great session everyone...:wave:

hewill4giveu
12-11-2010, 11:51 PM
I unfortunately did not get in on the beginning i feel i have missed so much. After hearing the last two days of instruction. His teaching is just wonderfull something i have so needed. I am a beginner to art plus a senior. Im not able to sit at a school to learn so i get what i can on line. This is excellent teaching I have learned so much in two days. Now to put it to work. Thank you for having this and making it free. I could have never afforded to pay for what i am getting via this coarse. Teresa Howell

hewill4giveu
12-12-2010, 12:15 AM
There is also a software freebee that lets you copy what ever is on your computer screen with voice. I used it today on the lesson and it caught everything for hours. Its called. DEBUT VIDEO CAPTURE SOFTWARE

marionh
12-12-2010, 03:20 AM
Joined in yesterday for the first time. Wonderful tuition. Unfortunately I was only able to join in for a very short time as the webinar starts at 11pm my time.
I am going to have a siesta today to see if I can stay awake tonight:lol:

In the meantime I will look into that video capture software.

Thank you Johannes for your generosity.:heart:

marionh
12-12-2010, 03:21 AM
PS thank you Robert and everyone for taking such detailed notes and posting them. That is also much appreciated.

edtree
12-12-2010, 06:08 AM
While looking through the photo reference library this morning I came across this photo and thought it was a good example of two of the points Johannes told us about last night - reflected light/colors in reflected light, and colors/values in light spots. I don't think I had ever noticed before the colors especially in reflected light. Pretty amazing when the eyes become open. It's tidbits like this that will seperate okay paintings from really good ones. Thanks Johannes! I can wait to try putting more color in my shadows and sun spots. Please correct me if I did not lable the areas correctly. I am including the photo by Rockchick (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=118261&cat=all&limit=last1):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Dec-2010/94944-shadows_and_reflected_light.JPG

edtree
12-12-2010, 06:14 AM
Johannes...Great session on snow last night. One of the things that really struck me was that the whitest snow was not on the top of the snow but in the angled areas (according to the position of the light source). I have already gone back and looked at my snow scenes with new eyes. Really valuable information, as always. I'm heading off now to study professional artists' snow scene paintings so I can further cement the info. Thank you!

Robert, as always, excellent illustrations and notes! Thank you!

Elizabeth