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winecountry
12-04-2010, 02:45 PM
This is a place for discussion and whatever notes or ideas you got from the Saturday webinar with Johannes.

There is way too much to put down at one time so I'll keep adding as I use them and now I'm fried so later I will start to distill things,

The is the most amount of useful information in one spot I've ever encountered so it will take a bit to order it...hang in there

winecountry
12-04-2010, 04:06 PM
First, we should all know what he wants from us, really serious study and work, the more we can show this the more we will get from him. He's totally obsessed with teaching serious committed painters, nothing in judgement if you only want to paint for a hobby or relaxation.

His goal is different than that and he's one of the most committed teachers I've seen so he's asking for people to have the same committment to working. The more we show that the more he will respond, and he wants the discussion to be here on WC he really emphaszied that, and as lively as we can make it so take of the nice gloves and be honest.

For this post I'm just going to give some of the Tree information
Please add or correct or question as you read it, it's just my notes


"the most delicious line is hit or miss for the tree edge"
he drew a hard straight line A
drew a line where it was hard and soft B
drew an all soft line C

Line B works best at it creates a close and far edge making the tree more 3D

Most artists light the top of the tree, but really the lightest warmest is the spot at a 90degree angle to the sun not the top which shares some of the sky color and so is a little cooler that the spot where the sun hits, ie the top is a mix of sky and light color.

To paint a tree think of a clock, 12 at top 6 at bottom, then let the brush work go from the outer edges always down to 6 just like a tree grows, sorry some of this need pictures. and I don't have any yet,

In painting greens put your brush in the lightest color first, he uses yellow ocher pale, then that impregnates the bristles, then touch it into the viridian green that way you won't have over powering neon greens that are too dark....if you use viridian first, then you have a very hard time to get it light enough.

gfuller
12-04-2010, 04:27 PM
It was over 4 hours, and every minute was instructive. Thanks Johannes.

There were lots of interesting tips, but I think the overall thing I took away is to paint what works. I've seen lots of discussion on painting what you see vs painting what you know, and how the history of western art progressed along those lines.

This webinar was about modulating values, lines, hues, masses, shapes etc, to make the painting a better painting - painting what works.

susanc
12-04-2010, 05:32 PM
I'm happy that Colleen started with trees. Right now they are the bane of my painting! Please correct me if I got this wrong--

The canopy of trees is roughly confined to an oval shape BUT you do not actually want the silhouette to look oval (boring). Additionally, the left side of a tree should never mirror the right side. One way to make the silhouette shape look more interesting is to take a "bite" out of the edges now and again, like bites out of an apple. Clyde Aspevig rarely uses sky holes. In his opinion, it gives a painting a polka-dotted effect. He prefers on occasion to use sky gaps, which are much bigger gaping holes in the canopy.

Johannes suggested assigning the times from a clock face to a tree, painting from the outer edges of the tree with strokes that pull down toward the number 6, which is located at the trunk base: from 12 toward 6, from 10 toward 6, from 2 toward 6, etc. This might be just what I needed to improve my trees.

Unfortunately, I came in late, just as Johannes was talking about tying a mass of trees together with a shadow value. I missed what came before that. I am not really clear on accents in trees. Are they just the darkest shadow areas?

I'm so glad that Johannes posted a webinar link on the Clyde Aspevig spin-off thread this morning because my bookmarked link didn't work for some odd reason. I would have missed it completely otherwise.

Thanks, Susan

winecountry
12-04-2010, 05:54 PM
In case my remark seems judgmental about hobbies, just want to say the key is if you are really dedicated to your painting and art, if you are then that's who he's looking for.

here are some sketches to explain the clock thing and the 90degree light and cooler(slightly) top of how light can be painted for trees, have to put up with my drawing with a mouse in photoshop any other way is too time consuming.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2010/103030-tree_webinar-1.jpg

Most artists light the top of the tree, but really the lightest warmest is the spot at a 90degree angle to the sun not the top which shares some of the sky color and so is a little cooler that the spot where the sun hits, ie the top is a mix of sky and light color.


The clock is the direction the brush work takes,( how the tree grows too) and more broadly the brushwork follows the lay of the land

winecountry
12-04-2010, 06:01 PM
Unfortunately, I came in late, just as Johannes was talking about tying a mass of trees together with a shadow value. I missed what came before that. I am not really clear on accents in trees. Are they just the darkest shadow areas?



Ill just say this once and from now on assume it, whatever I say is my own understanding, so don't take it as gospel

the answer is yes maybe:rolleyes: , mostly keeping in mind the accent is not darker than value 8, and even those are sparing so it could be the darkest shadow in the tree is just one of the two values for the main mass they are in, and a variation on temp is how it is further defined. Sometimes the dark on the tree is an accent value, but not always

JDWooldridge
12-04-2010, 09:47 PM
What a fascinating concept!! Can't wait to try that out!

In case my remark seems judgmental about hobbies, just want to say the key is if you are really dedicated to your painting and art, if you are then that's who he's looking for.

here are some sketches to explain the clock thing and the 90degree light and cooler(slightly) top of how light can be painted for trees, have to put up with my drawing with a mouse in photoshop any other way is too time consuming.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2010/103030-tree_webinar-1.jpg



The clock is the direction the brush work takes,( how the tree grows too) and more broadly the brushwork follows the lay of the land

winecountry
12-04-2010, 09:54 PM
post it here when you do, so we can see, you could put it out as a thread too but a sample here will help us all...

sundiver
12-04-2010, 11:05 PM
some more good stuff, that was posted on the old thread:



Great webinar. Terrific job. That was very generous of you.

At one point you mentioned that you hoped you weren't being to technical or presenting too much info. I just want you to know my feeling is the more the better.

I'm personally not looking for instruction how to mix paints or apply paint with a brush, but instead for theory analyzing paintings. There's lots of the basic how-to out there, but much less of the detailed analysis of painting structure. I really appreciate that you were focusing on detailed deconstruction of paintings. Great job.

First, I want to thank Johannes for the awesome lecture and demonstration this afternoon. I was glued to my computer screen for the entire time! If any of you have reservations about attending a future session with Johannes, Iíd like to put your mind at ease. It is the most valuable painting instruction Iíve ever had. Johannesís enthusiasm for sharing his knowledge is fueled by our interest. We will all benefit from everyoneís participation in this thread and in future webinar sessions so jump on in!

One of the things Iím most anxious to put into practice is the lesson on values. This is the first time I didnít hear ďpush the darksĒ or ďadd drama by using strong lights against strong darks.Ē

The concept of using three basic value structures within each landscape painting now makes so much sense. During the webinar, Johannes used many, many examples of paintings by other artists, sometimes sketched the information and sometimes both together.

Some notes on the three value structures:


The three structures defined: Mid light, mid, and mid dark.
The values should not repeat from one value structure to another.
Mid dark value areas should be visually connected
On a value scale of 1 to10, the values 9 and 10 should be thrown out.
Number 1 value should be saved for snow or waterfalls.
The above is not all inclusive. Iíve got 8 pages of notes and didnít get everything down!

Iím attaching a hideous painting that has been sitting on my easel staring at me for a couple of months because I havenít known where to go with it. Iím now inspired to go forward using what Iíve learned about the value structures, melodic lines, tips for making great water reflections, the no-fly zones, etcÖ but first asking myself the big question: ďWhat is this painting about?Ē I am open for suggestions as well.

Though I am just a hobby artist, Iím dedicated to improvement and looking forward to the discussion here, and attending future webinar sessions.

Thanks again, Johannes, for the excellent instruction and to my classmates for the great questions!

Elizabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2010/94944-DSCN00560002.JPG

(After looking at all the GREAT paintings today, I'm sort of embarrased to post this.) :o

this is the real deal, he just finished a whole section on how to best use a photo, or to paint on site, by choosing one speaker to take the predominate role...more later on this. Same place could yield a mt painting a sky painting a tree painting or a water....by choosing ONE feature to be the star

winecountry
12-05-2010, 01:27 AM
Edtree,
was just looking at this moved from the other thread, and I see a comment I made from my notes that was moved as well, that may be something that pertains here,

by choosing one speaker to take the predominate role...more later on this. Same place could yield a mt painting a sky painting a tree painting or a water....by choosing ONE feature to be the star

tho very nicely painted composition wise who is starring here?

edtree
12-05-2010, 05:38 AM
:wave: Thank you Colleen, Paula and Michael. I would not mind having this painting used for teaching purposes. Link to comments in other thread: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=778261&page=12

Michael, I agree with every point you made and I appreciate so much your detailed assessment. The main issue: "What is this painting about?" was something I should have thought about first, along with the composition and value structure...so many things.

This time, before painting, I made the decision to make the tree line the focus of the painting.

The first thing I did was to lower the value of the water area according to Johannesí advice on painting reflections. (Paint reflections of sky in water one value lower than the sky color). I also wanted this area to be the mid-range value mass.
I followed this by over-painting the foliage on the left upper quadrant to raise the value as it was originally in the 7-8 value range Ė way too dark!
I then lightened and blurred the strong reflections in the water as best I could.
These corrections improved the painting, but still, the point of the painting was not evident.
Next I attempted to lighten the entire tree line and give the bank a more melodic line. After trying to correct these things, Iím finding that it was/IS a very valuable lesson in pre-planning.The painting is a mess right now but Iím not upset about it. It was a failure to begin with and Iím learning a lot through this process. I would also be pleased to know that my blunders might help someone else. :)

Elizabeth

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 10:00 AM
I'm happy that Colleen started with trees. Right now they are the bane of my painting! Please correct me if I got this wrong--

The canopy of trees is roughly confined to an oval shape BUT you do not actually want the silhouette to look oval (boring). Additionally, the left side of a tree should never mirror the right side. One way to make the silhouette shape look more interesting is to take a "bite" out of the edges now and again, like bites out of an apple. Clyde Aspevig rarely uses sky holes. In his opinion, it gives a painting a polka-dotted effect. He prefers on occasion to use sky gaps, which are much bigger gaping holes in the canopy.

Johannes suggested assigning the times from a clock face to a tree, painting from the outer edges of the tree with strokes that pull down toward the number 6, which is located at the trunk base: from 12 toward 6, from 10 toward 6, from 2 toward 6, etc. This might be just what I needed to improve my trees.

Unfortunately, I came in late, just as Johannes was talking about tying a mass of trees together with a shadow value. I missed what came before that. I am not really clear on accents in trees. Are they just the darkest shadow areas?

I'm so glad that Johannes posted a webinar link on the Clyde Aspevig spin-off thread this morning because my bookmarked link didn't work for some odd reason. I would have missed it completely otherwise.

Thanks, Susan
I suggest we do a good session on trees next Saturday, Sound good?

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 10:03 AM
I submitted some suggestions to Elizabeth in the other thread.

sundiver
12-05-2010, 10:15 AM
I would also be pleased to know that my blunders might help someone else. :)
Elizabeth


We all learn from each other's "blunders", don't we- that's what I love about this place.
The water line is really beautiful; my favorite part. I find that tree on the end, although it does a good job of preventing the eye from zooming off the page, competes for my attention from the rest. Maybe if it were smaller or lighter? Just a thought. Here's a (clumsy) manip to show what I mean. (That ok? I'll delete it if not.)
There's a lot to like in this painting!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Dec-2010/6393-9494manip.jpg

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 10:16 AM
If you look at the photos you will see that if you follow the tree trunk all the way to the top that one branch will point to 12 o'clock. That's where you divide the tree into two parts, left and right. Follow the individual branches and you will see that the branches at the right point to the different times on the clock and the branches on the right do the same thing. Your brush strokes should resemble this.

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 10:25 AM
I missed what came before that. I am not really clear on accents in trees. Are they just the darkest shadow areas?


Thanks, Susan


I will go into detail about this tonight at 5 pm est. The light will come on. Now it's time for your trees to be jaw dropping my dear.

The canopy of trees is roughly confined to an oval shape BUT you do not actually want the silhouette to look oval (boring). Additionally, the left side of a tree should never mirror the right side. One way to make the silhouette shape look more interesting is to take a "bite" out of the edges now and again, like bites out of an apple. Clyde Aspevig rarely uses sky holes. In his opinion, it gives a painting a polka-dotted effect. He prefers on occasion to use sky gaps, which are much bigger gaping holes in the canopy.

Johannes suggested assigning the times from a clock face to a tree, painting from the outer edges of the tree with strokes that pull down toward the number 6, which is located at the trunk base: from 12 toward 6, from 10 toward 6, from 2 toward 6, etc. This might be just what I needed to improve my trees.
Susan
Amen on all the above Susan. Look at this painting. See how different the two sides are? By the way see how it is a bit cooler at the very top of that tree? We will talk more about the accents tonight at 5 PM and how to make trees look 3 Dimensional.

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 10:29 AM
This is a notice to all. I have three more weeks of free webinar usage. After that I won't be able to use it because it would require a payment. I propose I work with you by opening a session every day from 5 pm EST to 6 PM EST. Anyone who wants to come is invited. You may want the other members from other forums who have not seen this thread in on it. Tonight I will give techniques and secrets that Clyde uses for his trees. I will post the session link in this thread just before the session starts.

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 10:30 AM
Also do you think it is pertinent that we open a forum that says "Landscape Painting Instruction" so it becomes wider open?

antgeek
12-05-2010, 11:54 AM
Glad to see this thread up; I had to leave after the first hour of instruction yesterday. Today I will have time to paint and try to incorporate some of the landscape painting concepts discussed. Thanks Johannes!

Colorix
12-05-2010, 12:03 PM
Anyone who wants to come is invited. .... I will post the session link in this thread just before the session starts.

Thank you! Thanks to Paula posting about in Pastels, too!

edtree
12-05-2010, 12:12 PM
CROSSPOSTING FROM OTHER THREAD: Thank you for your critique, Johannes and again to Michael too. YES! I do like your version better. I believe I've had some success with all points except for raising the color saturation. (oops, and I see a couple hard edges I need to fix in the water!) Iíve posted an update below.

ADDING: Thank you Wendy! Now I almost wish I hadn't messed with the bank! And I agree with you about that awful tree to our right. I'm still trying to make it presentable. Also, I tried to build up some of the other trees so that the right and left were not acting like goal posts for the viewer. I appreciate so much your thoughts and compliments!

By the way, Iím working in acrylics on paper. It is not very cooperative with these edits, especially lightening. I may not be able to achieve all I want to in this one, but will for sure know much better for the next painting.

Johannes...your idea to have open sessions each evening is wonderful! I will be there as often as possible...definitely tonight. Maybe I'll wait to work further on my trees until afterwards. :)

And now for a question: You talked at length and showed us many examples for determining values for our three masses yesterday. I would like to know to what value would a figure or animal be in a painting? For instance, a cow in the foreground?

Elizabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Dec-2010/94944-DSCN03030001.JPG

rugman
12-05-2010, 12:28 PM
I have question similar to Elizabeth regarding figures, livestock, wildlife in landscape paintings. I have always admired the great cowboy artist because they incorporate beautiful landscapes, figure, and animals all into a single painting. A painting from Federic Remington comes to mind, where there are cowboys, on horses, roping a grizzly bear, with beautiful mountain landscape; all in a single painting... but it works.

What are your thoughts about figures, livestock,wildlife in landscapes? Are they a separate mass, or part of a larger? Are they darker valued? Any other helpful bit of info?

Thanks a bunch!

oldradagast
12-05-2010, 12:30 PM
Tree branches being spaced and aligned like hands on a clock... I hadn't really thought of that idea, but it is a remarkably effective way of looking at trees.

Great stuff here!

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 04:34 PM
I have question similar to Elizabeth regarding figures, livestock, wildlife in landscape paintings. I have always admired the great cowboy artist because they incorporate beautiful landscapes, figure, and animals all into a single painting. A painting from Federic Remington comes to mind, where there are cowboys, on horses, roping a grizzly bear, with beautiful mountain landscape; all in a single painting... but it works.

What are your thoughts about figures, livestock,wildlife in landscapes? Are they a separate mass, or part of a larger? Are they darker valued? Any other helpful bit of info?

Thanks a bunch!

As always there is a lot to say and lots of techniques. I once had a barbeque with David Wade, one of America's, foremost widlife artists and he told me he even hunts certain animals and disects them to understand their bone structure etc. So the sky is the limit but I can give you some pointers or quick fixes:
a) If you have one animal placing it in a 3/4 position is always the best. If you have several animals make sure none of them are equally position. The more you add the more you will have to modify their positions by flipping them, have some of them lying on the ground, one at 3/4 position, one at profile, another from behind etc.
b) Unless you are into hyperealism place the animal in the middle ground, not foreground becayse if you do you will need to make it look real which requires loes of work to detail fur etc. of course some species such as birds are more simple to produce so I guess you could place some of those up close.
If you paint the animal at close up like a portrait then sharpen the edges where the animal is closer to the view and gradually soften the edges as the figure recedes. Obviously if it a furry animal it iwll be much easier until you lose the fur into the background.
If the animal is moving then blur the edges of its feet and kick up dust to almost disappear the bottom part of its legs. If you see Gerald Harvey's work he is a master at this.
c)blur the entire background so the eye can focus easily on the animal. I'm sure you have seen Hollywood movies where there is a conversation and the camera blurs one of the subjects out, usually the one who is not speaking.

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 04:36 PM
Tree branches being spaced and aligned like hands on a clock... I hadn't really thought of that idea, but it is a remarkably effective way of looking at trees.

Great stuff here!
And there lies the solution to trees, especially bare trees.

robertsloan2
12-05-2010, 04:37 PM
Is the webinar about to start or am I off about which direction Central Time is from Eastern Time?

Colorix
12-05-2010, 04:40 PM
I'm too expecting the link to show up soon, and I'm further away, timewise, and thus more confused. :-)

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 04:43 PM
As promised I am opening the Webinar at 5 pm EST. Here is the link to get in. If you are ask to register just type your first name and initial your last name. If you want to keep your email private just type in a bogus email address. Hope some of you can make it:
1. Please join my Webinar.
https://www3.gotowebinar.com/join/385314374

2. You will be connected to audio using your computer's speakers

robertsloan2
12-05-2010, 08:22 PM
Thank you! That was incredible. I've tried the last exercise, creating trees by cutting into a black oval in Gimp. So here it is - laugh if you want.

They didn't turn out the way I expected at all, but they came out with character! I thought I'd be doing happy trees, majestic pine and full-leafed summer deciduous tree... these look much more Tim Burton!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Dec-2010/70184-Negative-Space-Trees.jpg

I thought the one on the right was deciduous but they both look like dead pines now that I look at them again.

sundiver
12-05-2010, 08:24 PM
Also do you think it is pertinent that we open a forum that says "Landscape Painting Instruction" so it becomes wider open?


Do you mean a forum or a thread? A whole forum is complicated. I think you mean a thread.

You can make a new thread ( click on "new thread" at the top of the Landscape Forum page) whenever you think the old one is too long, daily even.

Most of the threads here are instructive if the poster asks for critiques, but you could title your threads, for example, "lesson on trees", if you have a specific topic, or "Today's Landscape Lesson Dec 8", something like that. When people who are interested see that you started the thread they'll jump right in.

winecountry
12-05-2010, 08:38 PM
OK I give up ! There is no way to share this with you who are not there, he knows so much and gives so intensely each time there is no way to share it all. so be there, even if its not every session, he will repeat concepts several times in different ways....so show up even if you come in late or miss some .

One of the biggest concepts he ties things to is working on the right side of the brain in abstract shapes, not left side knowledge and to get this get the Carl Purcell books mentioned several times in these threads.

Today he gave out an exercise to work with that right side.

Create and oval like with charcoal or acrylic paint, then make trees out of it by CARVING AWAY THE DARK either with an eraser or paint, in otherwords creating the tree by negative shapes.... here are two examples he showed and said for us to post ours and he will comment

here are some he did with a mouse the one with the circle is where he said he would use a drybrush not try to paint in, and he spent a lot of time on drybrushing to create small branches and the ends of trees.

There was way more than this maybe others can post some of it. But anyone can do this exercise.

edtree
12-05-2010, 08:51 PM
Thanks for tonightís session, Johannes. The tips on painting branches and dry-brushing were especially good. I've already tried the dry-brush technique on the painting I've been working on and moved a few branches. Dry-brushing works a little different for acrylics, or maybe I'm doing it wrong? Instead of loading the brush fully, I had to keep it quite dry or it put down too much paint. I found the technique for applying by holding the brush parallel to the painting and dragging to render awesome effects. I will try this with the liner brush tomorrow for some branches. Iím going to enjoy and employ this often from now on. Thanks again!

Elizabeth

PS - I will also get to the oval exercise hopefully soon.

edtree
12-05-2010, 08:52 PM
Robert - I especially like the second one. It looks as if they are dancing! Nice!

Elizabeth

winecountry
12-05-2010, 09:02 PM
Here is my exercise, I used pastel and an eraser



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Dec-2010/103030-oval_tree_exercise3323.jpg

allydoodle
12-05-2010, 09:53 PM
Fantastic stuff - extremely helpful. I took notes, but I missed the first half hour and the last 45 minutes. My family was getting hungry :lol: . I definitely will be attending more lessons, as many as I can (my family might have to learn to cook!)

Thanks very much Johannes!

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 09:54 PM
Thanks for tonightís session, Johannes. The tips on painting branches and dry-brushing were especially good. I've already tried the dry-brush technique on the painting I've been working on and moved a few branches. Dry-brushing works a little different for acrylics, or maybe I'm doing it wrong? Instead of loading the brush fully, I had to keep it quite dry or it put down too much paint. I found the technique for applying by holding the brush parallel to the painting and dragging to render awesome effects. I will try this with the liner brush tomorrow for some branches. Iím going to enjoy and employ this often from now on. Thanks again!

Elizabeth

PS - I will also get to the oval exercise hopefully soon.

It should work with acrylics too. The trick is to hold the brush parallel to the canvas abd just tickle the canvas with lots of paint on the brush so that it "peels off". do not press down.

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 09:58 PM
Wow Collen thats not bad at all. now go back with your charcol and work on the positive shape and remove any repitition from both sides of a tree. I always tell my students to avoid airplane wings. Check you concave shapes also and make sure these indentations do not line up.

winecountry
12-05-2010, 11:03 PM
this was quite a job on the small size about 3 " I chose Can't imagine how it is going to be over the surface of a whole painting, harder than one thinks it may be, but very useful as you said, and I can feel the shift in my head looking at the shapes instead of objects, really feel more at home on the right side, since I was trained as an abstract painter, perhaps it will come back easier for me, and could be one reason I've been so frustrated painting stuff.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Dec-2010/103030-tree_revised_3324.jpg

Paula Ford
12-05-2010, 11:17 PM
Definately much harder than it looks!

I did 2 of them in Gimp.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Dec-2010/1978-Exercise1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Dec-2010/1978-Exercise2.jpg

Dharma_bum
12-06-2010, 04:04 AM
I had to work today, so I missed the tree lesson. I hope that these are being recorded and there is a way to make them available to those of us who can't always be in attendance. In the first one on Saturday, it was said that finding a place to host could be a problem, but if I recall, one of the mods said they could be hosted on WC, so I hope that is explored further. I know for sure I need help with trees! :D I'll try the exercise shown.

Dan

edtree
12-06-2010, 06:03 AM
It should work with acrylics too. The trick is to hold the brush parallel to the canvas abd just tickle the canvas with lots of paint on the brush so that it "peels off". do not press down.

I was holding the brush correctly and did not press but I will work on an even lighter touch. Remembering something else you said last night, I think what might also hindering is that the painting I'm working on is small. It is 9" x 12" paper and very smooth. I'll do some experimenting on a larger surface (canvas) when I get home from work tonight. Thanks for your response!

Elizabeth

Colorix
12-06-2010, 08:34 AM
Thank you Johannes, and thank you who posted the excercise, I had to leave at my 1 a.m. ... so I missed that. Can only say the first two hours were packed with really good stuff!

robertsloan2
12-06-2010, 08:40 AM
Colleen, yours came out beautiful especially after the changes. I'm impressed, you did it with physical media.

Paula, yours are so cool. I love the shapes on your massed pines, they're each distinct and different. Of course you're actually a professional painter, so yours are awesome.

Johannes, thank you so much for yesterday's class. I learned a lot in it. Some of your golden nuggets were things I already did but hadn't articulated, just sort of come up with here and there out of looking at nature, many more were total eye-openers.

I haven't done oils often. I got frustrated with my results a couple of years ago trying to paint some black eyed susans outdoors. The painting is all right but neither as realistic nor as powerful as I wanted. I know there are painters who do great things in oils and yet mine fall flat - I do better in watercolors or pastels or even occasionally acrylics. Your suggestion to load the brush with yellow ochre pale first and then dip into the green or blue to modify it made complete sense. I think it'll give me much better foliage.

My oils set is a Winsor & Newton Mayfair Box, artist grade full size tubes with all the tools included in a nice wood box that I picked up on Clearance. It has Yellow Ochre but not Yellow Ochre Pale, Winsor Lemon rather than a Cadmium Yellow, Winsor Blue (Pthalo) Green Shade and Sap Green. I'm very comfortable with pigments and color mixing from using watercolors, would I have a problem approximating the Viridian with a bit of Winsor Lemon into the Pthalo Blue and the Yellow Ochre Pale with a bit of white into the Yellow Ochre, or should I start buying more colors than will fit in the box?

I thought it was all right with split primaries, a green, black, white and Burnt Sienna but added a Burnt Umber tube because I'd been sent one by mistake on another order and kept it. That comes pretty close to the palette that I'm used to in watercolors, is it different for painting landscapes in oils?

I'm studying this now but will probably only be doing acrylic, pastel and watercolor studies till it's spring and warm enough to paint outdoors. My room hasn't got much ventilation so I've got to wait till I can haul the goodies outside into the yard to use oils. Your classes are great for it though, your oils tips are giving me a lot of confidence that next summer's attempts will be much better paintings.

Also, would you please have a look at my two dead trees in the carving out exercise? I posted them early so they wound up on page two, you might not have seen them. I thought I'd do happy trees with lots of healthy foliage, instead I wound up carving them out to gnarled dead bare ones. C&C gratefully appreciated.

Michaelmcg
12-06-2010, 08:55 AM
I'm very comfortable with pigments and color mixing from using watercolors, would I have a problem approximating the Viridian with a bit of Winsor Lemon into the Pthalo Blue and the Yellow Ochre Pale with a bit of white into the Yellow Ochre, or should I start buying more colors than will fit in the box?



I don't remember whether Johannes said it or not, but one of the advantages of Viridian Green (I use Winsor & Newton) is its low tinting power. This makes it much easier to control than most other greens.

Michael

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 11:09 AM
I don't remember whether Johannes said it or not, but one of the advantages of Viridian Green (I use Winsor & Newton) is its low tinting power. This makes it much easier to control than most other greens.

Michael

Yes, Michael again you are right. That's exactly the reason plus it is on the green-blue side of the color which will help it being too garish

Again here are the color mixtures I use for greens:

Yellow ochre pale
burnt sienna
viridian green
Cadmium yellow (to remove the chalky effect)
Try to bring it to the likeness of an olive.
Run away from all pigments that say "deep or hue". They are too over powering.

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 11:12 AM
would I have a problem approximating the Viridian with a bit of Winsor Lemon into the Pthalo Blue and the Yellow Ochre Pale with a bit of white into the Yellow Ochre, or should I start buying more colors than will fit in the box?

I thought it was all right with split primaries, a green, black, white and Burnt Sienna but added a Burnt Umber tube because I'd been sent one by mistake on another order and kept it. That comes pretty close to the palette that I'm used to in watercolors, is it different for painting landscapes in oils?

C&C gratefully appreciated.

Believe I have tried all kinds of options. Some of my students in order to use up what they already had had problems with greens. They thanked me for making them go to the store and buy the colors I told them to.

Try this for greens in watercolor.
Ultramarine blue
transparent yellow
burnt sienna
raw sienna

All of the are transparent.

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 11:14 AM
this was quite a job on the small size about 3 " I chose Can't imagine how it is going to be over the surface of a whole painting, harder than one thinks it may be, but very useful as you said, and I can feel the shift in my head looking at the shapes instead of objects, really feel more at home on the right side, since I was trained as an abstract painter, perhaps it will come back easier for me, and could be one reason I've been so frustrated painting stuff.

Big improvement Colleen. As you can see the negative concave shapes no longer line up.

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 11:27 AM
Colleen I can't find the way to start a new thread. Would you be kind enough to start a new one that says, "Johannes Art Instruction".

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 11:31 AM
Still pay more attention to negative shapes.

Colorix
12-06-2010, 12:37 PM
Oy, this wasn't easy... (re-training the ole brain never is).

PSE oval, carved into. Amazing how shapes get cloned, and are aligned! This is roughly the third attempt. Edit: Trunk is trunkated, cropped. No ground, didn't try to 'root' it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/117343-Carved-tree.jpg

winecountry
12-06-2010, 01:50 PM
Done Johannes,
here is the link to the new thread Johannes Art Instruction for Landscape (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11629041#post11629041)

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 02:19 PM
Oy, this wasn't easy... (re-training the ole brain never is).

PSE oval, carved into. Amazing how shapes get cloned, and are aligned! This is roughly the third attempt. Edit: Trunk is trunkated, cropped. No ground, didn't try to 'root' it.


Be patient it needs several attempts and work. However we don't see repeated shapes on the outside so it is starting to work.

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 02:25 PM
Maybe some of you want to post a dry brush example that would represent a cluster of leaves?

sundiver
12-06-2010, 03:25 PM
Colleen I can't find the way to start a new thread. Would you be kind enough to start a new one that says, "Johannes Art Instruction".


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/6393-forum_page.jpg

Johannes, go to the Landscapes Forum page ( via the Forum Jumo dropdown at the bottom of this thread) and click New Thread on upper left of page. :)

deanster04
12-06-2010, 03:44 PM
Ive been working on my tree. Still needs some work though:wave:


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/75724-Untitled-16.jpg

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 04:13 PM
Ive been working on my tree. Still needs some work though:wave:


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/75724-Untitled-16.jpg

I think you did a good job. Be careful not to repeat convex shapes. Look at your right side of the tree. You will see 3 equal "meatballs" from 1 to 5 o'clock. Maybe you want to continue working on it and repost.

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 04:16 PM
The webinar access code is this one for tonight Monday December 6. The subject will be "All you need to know about evergreen trees".

Click on this link to access the room
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/186041342

Hope you can make it!

deanster04
12-06-2010, 04:29 PM
I always seem to fall into bad habit of making the same shape over and over again

thanks for your critique:clap:

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Sorry the registration says Tuesday just ignore that but the access link is still correct
The webinar access code is this one for tonight Monday December 6. The subject will be "All you need to know about evergreen trees".

Click on this link to access the room
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/186041342

Hope you can make it!

robertsloan2
12-06-2010, 04:50 PM
Johannes, thank you! I knew the one on the right came out better than the one on the left and didn't see why - now I do. Looking forward to tonight's on evergreens. I have a feeling I've been doing stereotyped ones whenever I do them from imagination.

I guess on the oil colors I'll have to just break down and pick up a few more. It's such a heartbreak for a confirmed art supply addict. Besides, the sap green will still be useful when I'm doing flowers.

I love using raw sienna or burnt sienna in watercolor greens, it comes out very well with Ultramarine. But I vary the greens a lot and tend to roam all over the place with them, it depends on the feel and intensity of the painting I'm doing whether I want to mute them or get them brilliant. I also like using quinacridone burnt orange instead of burnt sienna sometimes for its transparency, that'll give some gorgeous results. Still need to try the W&N Transparent Yellow, another one for the supply list.

I hate to ask but could you post your palette here again so that I know what other colors I'm missing? I had some but not all of them. The three that I know I need are Yellow Ochre Pale, Cadmium Yellow and Viridian (which I think is a Hue in W&N and acts a bit differently than Pthalo Green, much as I love Pthalo Green as a base). But there might be others I haven't already got.

edtree
12-06-2010, 04:55 PM
Barely got this done before tonight's session. Used charcoal to fill, removed with kneaded eraser. I see some areas that are cloned but did not have time to repeat. I will do this again later until I get the old right brain really cooking! ~Elizabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Dec-2010/94944-DSCN03060001.JPG

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 08:44 PM
I hate to ask but could you post your palette here again so that I know what other colors I'm missing? I had some but not all of them. The three that I know I need are Yellow Ochre Pale, Cadmium Yellow and Viridian (which I think is a Hue in W&N and acts a bit differently than Pthalo Green, much as I love Pthalo Green as a base). But there might be others I haven't already got.

For oils or watercolor?

robertsloan2
12-06-2010, 09:31 PM
For oils and watercolor. Odds are I have most or all of them in watercolor. I've got almost 100 different watercolors in several artist grade brands including Winsor & Newton. But it'd still be cool to know what they are so that I can load a palette with that palette and get any particular color or two I'm missing.

Most of my watercolors are Daniel Smith. If there are proprietary Winsor & Newton colors I don't have I can always pick them up on my next supply order. I've also got a 48 color half pans set of Lukas 1862 that's a treasured gift from my daughter and do have half a dozen Cadmiums in W&N Artists. I gave away all the Cotman ones to beginner friends when I started getting the Artist grade ones.

For oils so that I can throw those right in my cart at Blick and remember to get them the next time I order any supplies. They're not that expensive in W&N and I can always shuffle some of the flower colors out when I'm doing landscapes. Or ditch the black that came with the set to make room for one, that sort of thing.

I do want to try realism in oils with a grisaille underpainting so the black will be useful for that - but that's not what needs to go with me out in the yard or up to Mt. Petit Jean next summer. If I've got your palette and go up to Mt. Petit Jean, I can have a go at a good plein air study.

The oils that I have are good for a Colourist approach, very pure spectrum colors. I took Charlie's class (Colorix) and bought Painting Radiant Light and Color in Oils and Pastels, which was some of what made that set appeal to me so much - it'd be great for the colourist method. Your method's very different and seems more tonalist.

I'd like to learn both. I'd like to be able to look at a painting I want to do and get it to come out the way I want that painting to. In watercolors I don't stick to the same palette every time. I got used to all my colors and choose the pigments and transparency and hues that fit the effect I want. I think it's probably going to be the same way for oil painting - that depending on the type of painting I'm doing I'll need different reds, yellows, etc.