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susanc
11-08-2010, 09:24 AM
What incredible tips, very thoughtful and very thorough. My mind is revving from all that concise knowledge--I can't wait to give it a try. I know I have to be patient because I will only improve as I keep practicing, but I felt I was definitely going down a blind alley with my foreground and needed to somehow make a sharp U-turn to get it going in a better direction. I believe that's now going to be possible with those suggestions.

I really appreciated the tip about "killing" a tree in your painting. Most seasoned artists seem to have more "red" in their greens than I do. I keep forgetting that.

I am overwhelmed to receive such generous help and suggestions. Thanks so much! I'm afraid I could spend time here all day asking questions! But unfortunately it's already time to get my family up and going.

Thanks again, Susan

susanc
11-08-2010, 01:02 PM
I can't believe I forgot to mention how much I appreciated the photo details that were posted. Thanks to everyone who went to that trouble. I can see the brushstrokes so much better in them and they really help to make your point.

The discussion about values was intimidating! I thought Aspevig was amazing before I read that discussion but now I am completely in awe. He works in those few values and still creates definite form and the illusion of sunlight?!! I never realized that before. I've see many landscapes done in limited values that appeared mushy to me. Sometimes a person resorts to outlining objects (especially rocks) because they got their values too close to create the distinct impression of the plane changes. I didn't want to outline, so I had been planning to use a slightly greater value range. I guess that wasn't the best remedy after all. Now I'm stymied--almost overwhelmed about ever being able to paint a good landscape! :)

Johannes, sorry this is probably an inane question after everything you've written, but could atmospheric conditions (quality of light) and the amount of panorama depicted (atmospheric perspective) partly influence the value range we use? I ask this because we had Santa Ana's all last week. They blew away the dust and every hint of humidity and as a result, the sun was abnormally painful and blinding. To me, the shadows nearby were fairly dark by contrast--darker than usual. So if I was painting a fairly intimate landscape of the immediate area, (like in Land Snorkeling?) maybe I could get away with slightly darker shadows when it's this specific circumstance of extreme brightness and/or limited panorama? Maybe? (I'm using a laptop and unfortunately, the values I see shift depending on the tilt of the screen!)

I understand your point about not wanting to stop the eye from moving throughout the painting and I agree that the darker areas draw the eye to them. I don't want people's eyes stuck uncontrollably at places that aren't the focal point. As you suggested, I'm going to turn some paintings to grayscale to study the value changes. I've taken so much for granted visually. The information shared on this thread has been eye-opening!

And you are also right about learning from copying, as long as it's not the end-goal. I remember fellow painting class members who told me they wanted to remain true to their own style, not become clones of our teacher. The ones who said this ignored every piece of advice the teacher gave. I saw for myself that at the very least, being the teacher's clone (if it really had been possible) would have been a huge step forward in every case! (The people who told me the teacher was jealous of their style and wanted to undermine them were a bit scary--especially if you'd seen their paintings.)

Thanks! Susan

Johannes Instructor
11-15-2010, 04:33 PM
Johannes, sorry this is probably an inane question after everything you've written, but could atmospheric conditions (quality of light) and the amount of panorama depicted (atmospheric perspective) partly influence the value range we use? I ask this because we had Santa Ana's all last week. They blew away the dust and every hint of humidity and as a result, the sun was abnormally painful and blinding. To me, the shadows nearby were fairly dark by contrast--darker than usual. So if I was painting a fairly intimate landscape of the immediate area, (like in Land Snorkeling?) maybe I could get away with slightly darker shadows when it's this specific circumstance of extreme brightness and/or limited panorama? Maybe? (I'm using a laptop and unfortunately, the values I see shift depending on the tilt of the screen!)

Definitely atmosheric perspective is a very good way to create distance in a painting however there is a misconception that ALWAYS things get lightter and cooler in the distance. This is true as long as you have a day with a clear blue sky. If we stick with this principle we would be depriving ourselves from creating different planes and assigning predominant values to those planes. What will happen if a cloud passes over the sun and throws a distant plane into shadow? All bets would be off with things getting lighter. Background trees could become much darker than foreground trees bathed in direct sunlight. Also yellow dry grass in the foreground would be cooler if it is shadow than grass getting sunlight in the background. So a predominant mid dark background vs a predominant mid value foreground would not be unheard of.
Here are some principles that help create the illusion of distance
1. Overlapping - placing one object in front of another where the closer one allows for a portion of it to partially cover the distant object.
2. Atmospheric perspective
3. By creating a predominant value per plane. Picture is pasted below. Notice how the mid dark foreground pushes the other plane into the distance. (A good practice in general is to make vertical objects darker than horizontal ones). In fact most artists place the darkest mass in the middle ground or background to avoid a balance problem.
4. softening edges for distant objects
5. Simplify detail (A mother bear behind a cub will be more suggested)
6. Warm colors come forward. Cooler colors recede.

Johannes Instructor
11-15-2010, 04:39 PM
Keep the questions coming. I have yet to reveal the most important 6 points about landscape painting.

DaveInPA
11-16-2010, 08:09 PM
so reveal what you have.

fishpimp
11-17-2010, 09:47 AM
I don't know the question to ask... School me, please!

Johannes Instructor
11-17-2010, 12:36 PM
This will be hard to explain because many visual examples will be needed to show this but I will do my best. One of the biggest secrets to successful landscape painting is:
1. Visualize and re-design all the material into abstract shapes. If you were to cut out these shapes they would appear as abstract puzzle pieces. Override realism.
2. Within those abstract shapes variegate colors from cool to warm.
3. Gradate the values to avoid a "wall effect"
4. Make those shapes appear "cubic" or 3 dimensional by making areas go deeper and come forward. Think front to back. Punch holes into these shapes so they dont look flat. Always think 3D.
5. Determine the edges to see if it soft, hard or a hit and miss combination of both.
6. Create "musical lines" (quote from Aspevig) or better understood as melodic lines where one shape meets another.
Avoid any 2 X 2 " area that is flat and has none of these above.
Plan your entire painting into basically 3 masses, mid light, Mid, mid dark and connect all shapes inside these masses by keeping the values close together.
Look! This will be impossible to understand thru text. I propose giving you a free lecture on this using a whiteboard. Please reply in this forum if you are interested. If I get enough people I will do it. It will be love so i can show slides of Clyde's paintings to single out what I am talking about. Later we will try to agree on a day and time.

deanster04
11-17-2010, 05:34 PM
Thanks for posting those helpful tips. I have your pdf tutorials I got years back and the more I learn the better looking my painting are becoming

brookstream
11-17-2010, 07:36 PM
I'm in!

rugman
11-17-2010, 09:35 PM
I wanted to ask about shapes, the "bones" of a painting. What does C. A. say about them.

Since its first on your list, maybe you could show us about shapes? Good place to start. Im sure there are many interested people.

Some personal questions:
1. how many abstract shapes? can there be too many? to few?
2. do dark shapes or masses need to be connected in some way? (the beginning, block in stage)

Using Clyde's paintings as examples would be great.

Thanks artofjohannes for posting all those beautiful Clyde Aspevig paintings in the other thread. Great inspiration and info.

Michaelmcg
11-18-2010, 07:43 AM
I was about to post a new thread on the Plein Air Forum regarding the reasons some paintings works and others don't (it's that time of year when most plein air painters do more musing than doing!). But then I came across this very interesting thread here. Having spent most of the morning looking throught the Clyde Aspevig thread and all the great video links therein, I find myself agreeing with pretty much all of it, so hopefully I am learning to do a lot of the right things.

I have always been drawn to paintings which convey a strong impression of "visually real" light. I can still remember being totally gobsmacked the first time I saw one of Monet's haystack series in the Musee d'Orsay in Paris. The light effect was achieved with a very limited value range and the shadow areas were full of colour. But the effect was absolutely stunning. Some twenty-five years later, I still feel the main reason I paint is to try to capture similar effects in my own work. I'm not Monet of course and will probably never come close to achieving my painting goals, but like most things in life, the reward comes in gradual progress rather than in immediate achievement.

When I started thinking about why some paintings work better than others, I felt initially that it had to be a combination of the effective use of values, colour and design (composition). There are of course other things such as varied brushwork, texture and edges, but I feel these are perhaps secondary to the other three. But when I started converting my favourite plein airs from this year to grey scale, I quickly realised that the power of the effective use of colour totally outweighs the other two.

Here are some examples:-


Sunny Spring Afternoon, Dunmore East
(14" x 18" Oil on Canvas)

While the impact of this painting lies to some extent in the dramatic counterchange (value shift), to my eye anyway, the greyscale version lacks the punch of colour in the foreground rocks. I could, of course, have gone much darker on the foreground rocks for greater counterchange, but it would have been at the expense of colour, and in my opinion, resulted in a weaker painting.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-Image1.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-Image1b.jpg




Haybales, Near Screen
(12" x 10" Oil on Canvas)

The importance of observed colour and lighter values in the shadow areas is even more evident in this one. The greyscale version has very little visual impact. The real power of this painting lies in the subtle hue shifts in the shadow sides of the bales. The light values in those areas also strongly suggests intense summer afternoon sunlight, with the reflected light permeating even the darkest shadows.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-Image2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-Image2b.jpg




Autumn Afternoon, Carnivan Bay
(10" x 12" Oil on Canvas)

The left-hand side of this painting work well in greyscale because of the strong value shifts in that area, but again I feel the real strength of the painting lies in the observed colour shifts and relatively light values of the foreground cliffs which are mostly in shadow, but picking up reflected light from the cliff face immediately below me.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-Image3.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-Image3b.jpg




Winter Sunlight, Carne
(10" x 12" Oil on Board)

The final one below is perhaps the most interesting, because it was painted last Sunday morning in very strong sunlight, but with a very low winter sun. Even though the shadow areas are darker than they are in my summer paintings, they are still light enough to have clearly discernible colours within them. The greyscale version still has a lot of impact because of the greater value contrast, but it's nothing compared to the coloured version.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-P1000596b.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-P1000596b1.jpg


I'm not blowing my own trumpet here (OK well maybe a little! :lol: ), so please feel free to critique any of the works or completely disagree with me for that matter. But I just wanted to add my own thoughts to the thread, essentially reinforcing what Johannes has already said regarding the necessity for colour and hence lighter values in shadow areas. I think it also suggests that anyone new to landscape painting will learn much more quickly through direct observation from nature by spending a lot of time working en plein air.

Michael

Michaelmcg
11-18-2010, 09:27 AM
Rather than just using my own stuff, here is a painting by Colin Page which I absolutely love. When converted to greyscale, it is clear that it is nearly all mid-value range, and even the darkest and lightest notes are only a step or so above or below the mid-range values. The huge visual impact is down to accurate observation of colour shifts between and within the shadow/sunlit areas.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-intersection_new11.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-intersection_new11b.jpg


Michael

Johannes Instructor
11-18-2010, 06:40 PM
Rather than just using my own stuff, here is a painting by Colin Page which I absolutely love. When converted to greyscale, it is clear that it is nearly all mid-value range, and even the darkest and lightest notes are only a step or so above or below the mid-range values. The huge visual impact is down to accurate observation of colour shifts between and within the shadow/sunlit areas.



You got it michael. Finally this blog is going somewhere. That was a prime example. If you do the same thing your paintings will improve dramatically. Just try. I'gm glad you realized this.


Michael

Johannes Instructor
11-18-2010, 09:59 PM
Michael I took the liberty to modify a couple of your paintings to emphasize the melodic lines and the abstract shapes. Your bails painting no doubt is the best of them all. I like the mood and the placement of the bails. It was well thought out.
Now in your original paintng where the grass meets the bushes you have a diagonal somewhat straight line. I feel this does not convey enough "Visual music' (Aspevig's reference) or as I say "melodic line". The line is practically straight which creats a fast visual thrust. If you make the line more interesting by making it melodic will slow the eye down as it travels and makes it dance on this line. Please compare both paintings. I also made the shape of the sky more abstract. It almost fell into a rectangle because the trees lined up. I brought the large tree forward as well to create more depth instead them all lining up with tha straight diagonal line.

Johannes Instructor
11-18-2010, 10:16 PM
Michael also look at these two paintings. In the first one you can see the contour line of the rock is very jagged, not melodic on the diagonal angle and where the rock meets the water. Now compare to my edited version which now contains "visual music" lines or melodic lines. The eye will appreciate more a melodic contour line.

Johannes Instructor
11-18-2010, 10:32 PM
Also check you negative shapes where the "concaves" do not line up or are repeated. Many artists only pay attention to make sure the positive shapes don't repeat and they neglect the inverted shapes known as negative shapes. Look below.

Michaelmcg
11-19-2010, 04:59 AM
Thanks so much, Johannes, for taking the time to re-work the paintings I posted. I was fully aware of the issue in the haybale painting (I softened part of the daigonal line in an attempt to vary it, but your solution is much more effective). Interestingly, elsewhere, you've picked up on a tendency which I still struggle to overcome (repeating shapes or "cloning" as I've seen it described somewhere). Apparently, there is a natural human tendency to put order on things which are random, and yet such order in a landscape painting irritates to some extent. An apparent contradiction, but probably a left brain/right brain struggle. Clyde Aspevig's music analogy is very helpful in this respect, because it is easy to remember and it's something I will plant firmly in both sides of my brain to make sure I don't make that mistake again!

Thanks again for taking the time to give such an informed critique. I hope a few more of the many accomplished artists here contribute to this thread, so that we can all learn from it.

Michael

Wayne Gaudon
11-19-2010, 06:38 AM
great information all around

Esmeralinda
11-19-2010, 06:47 AM
Very very interesting and instructive, thank you :thumbsup:
I am not yet finish reading the first thread :D It is good to come back a few times because of all the info.

JDWooldridge
11-19-2010, 10:33 AM
I'm involved!! Just been lurking, reading, and digesting!

oldradagast
11-19-2010, 12:27 PM
Oh, gosh... cloning... yep, that is a difficult one to overcome. Even if you are aware of it on the larger scale and make sure that the most obvious elements in a painting don't suffer from cloning (such as trees or background mountains), it is so easy to miss it on the next scale down, perhaps among the bushes, small shoreline rocks, or mid-distance trees.

I think one of the other things that may trigger cloning is thinking of each element in a painting separately while missing the whole. For example, if you think of a forest just as "a bunch of trees" there's a temptation to paint each tree separately and disconnected from its neighbors. Not only is this not accurate - in a real forest, the trees are influenced by each other and there's plenty of underbrush, etc. - but it can trigger the creation of a fake-looking forest where all the trees look the same. The same concept could apply to seeing clouds as disconnected from each other, rocks being completely separate from each other, etc. In each case, you end up with a lot of clones that don't mesh together.

Great thread!

Johannes Instructor
11-19-2010, 01:58 PM
One way you can get away from cloning is to think use the Goldilocks idea.
Think of Papa, Mama, kiddie bear while painting for example evergreens.
lso negative painting helps avoid symetrical shapes. If you paint the sky into the tree you will be suprised how you end up with shapes you did not expect. When you do this you would work from the right brain and the right brain does not have symetrical shapes stored in its memory.

Michaelmcg
11-19-2010, 07:23 PM
One way you can get away from cloning is to think use the Goldilocks idea.
Think of Papa, Mama, kiddie bear while painting for example evergreens.
lso negative painting helps avoid symetrical shapes. If you paint the sky into the tree you will be suprised how you end up with shapes you did not expect. When you do this you would work from the right brain and the right brain does not have symetrical shapes stored in its memory.

I looked at a Ken Howard DVD today and guess what, he said the same thing about painting the sky against buildings and a building reflection (on a wet sidewalk) against a black traffic light. His logic was that doing it this way made you think of shapes rather than "known" objects. Great to hear something voiced here echoed by a renowned landscape painter on this side of the pond.

But, and this may be heresy to many, I regard Howard's work as being too tonal. But having said that, I've never seen any of his paintings IRL, then again, by his own admission, he is more of a "tonalist" than a "colourist". Nothiing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned, but not a direction that particularly excites me, unless it's really well done. I suppose it just goes to show that there are certain "truisms" in landscape painting which are common to all artists regardless of whether they have a tonalist or colourist preference (I hate labels but hopefully it helps to explain what I mean).

Michael

brookstream
11-19-2010, 08:40 PM
I'm here! But I don't know much so I'm just observing :thumbsup:

rugman
11-20-2010, 12:21 AM
Thanks Johannes for answering my questions! Thanks also for outlining the shapes in some of Clive A. paintings over in the other thread. The pages from the book explaining darks and connecting them are excellent. Appreciate your time in going to all that work.

The more I paint, the more important the initial shapes seem to be. If the main shapes are "off" or not "right", then perhaps something will be lacking in the painting, no matter how well everything else is done. This probably explains why many artist do thumbnail sketches before actually painting.

Lots of great information here, looking forward to what is yet to come.

Al Skaar
11-21-2010, 08:51 PM
Keep the questions coming. I have yet to reveal the most important 6 points about landscape painting.
I just posted this painting, then thought I would also add it to this thread because I was dealing with this very issue - keeping the values to mid-range with darkest darks and lightest lights confined to accents - and not too successfully in this instance. I'm thinking that this one is a little too dark overall but would like other eyes to check it out and critique as well. Here is the painting in color, and a grayscale version. Thanks in advance for your critiques and comments!

- Al

600471

600481

oddman99
11-22-2010, 09:30 AM
I would say you have a fine painting as it stands. If this is the scene as you saw it and expressed it, then so be it.

But, if you want to pursue the notion of reduced value range of the main elements, there is scope for adjustment. If the vertical face of the canyon and its cast shadow are similar in local colour and tone, then normally the cast shadow, being on an inclined plane and skylit, should be lighter in value than the shaded vertical face.

Therefore, for the sake of your experimentation, even if the local colour of the talus is darker than the canyon wall you could still fake it and make it lighter. After all, you are the artist. Your task is to create the painting, not the scenery.

Michaelmcg
11-22-2010, 09:48 AM
I hope Johannes chips in here, Al, but I think Oddman has already spotted what may be bothering you. I've spent a lot of time over the last week or so looking at both my own stuff (those which I'm pleased with) and some of my favourite paintings/artists on the web. Invariably, the paintings that do it for me have very realistic separation of:-

- light and shadow masses,

- foreground from midground from background, and

- vertical from horizontal planes.

I think the last of these is particularly critical when both planes are in shadow. I also feel the key to doing this effectively lies in accurate observation of the differences in hue, chroma and value in each instance. I have no idea as to how one can do this other than with an accurate colour plein air sketch. But I suppose it is possible that those with years of plein air experience can make educated guesses in the studio.

I look forward to seeing more feedback on this one.

Michael

Johannes Instructor
11-22-2010, 10:16 AM
[quote=Al Skaar]I just posted this painting, then thought I would also add it to this thread because I was dealing with this very issue - keeping the values to mid-range with darkest darks and lightest lights confined to accents - and not too successfully in this instance. I'm thinking that this one is a little too dark overall but would like other eyes to check it out and critique as well. Here is the painting in color, and a grayscale version. Thanks in advance for your critiques and comments!

- Al
We cannot trust photos to determine values but here is one rule of thumb you may apply. There are three sources of light. That is: the sun, the sky and relfected light. Whatever lines up at a 90 degree to the sun receives the most intense light. This light will diminish however as the angle opens. So let's say we are looking at a highway and the sun is positioned at 2 PM position on the clock (not clock time, just position). The flat part of the highway which is positioned about 120 degrees with get less light than the portion of the highway that would go up a hill and end up at a 90 degree angle to the sun which would receive 100% direct sunlight.
Now when it comes to the sky light this no longer applies because the sky is in a dome so all areas influence the value. However when it comes to a wall this will only get partial light (about half) from the sky. Now let's look at your painting. Do you see the foreground where you have a canyon wall then an upright plane where the wall becomes a hill. Well the wall will be darker than the hill because it gets less blue dome sky light that the hill which gets more. So basically as the hill extends out from the wall it will get lighter and the blue sky will also cool the color.
I believe that what you were sensing was not working that well was that the values from the side plane and the upright plane were the same value.
A good way of assessing your value masses is to try avoid any value going past a number 7 on the scale.

Johannes Instructor
11-22-2010, 11:10 AM
I would say you have a fine painting as it stands. If this is the scene as you saw it and expressed it, then so be it.

But, if you want to pursue the notion of reduced value range of the main elements, there is scope for adjustment. If the vertical face of the canyon and its cast shadow are similar in local colour and tone, then normally the cast shadow, being on an inclined plane and skylit, should be lighter in value than the shaded vertical face.

Therefore, for the sake of your experimentation, even if the local colour of the talus is darker than the canyon wall you could still fake it and make it lighter. After all, you are the artist. Your task is to create the painting, not the scenery.

Very good oddman. I am applauding your reply!

Davkin
11-22-2010, 11:10 AM
I'm lurking as well since I'm just a beginner and have nothing to add or to be critiqued, just trying to absorb all this information.

David

fishpimp
11-22-2010, 12:29 PM
Keep it comin'! There's plenty of lurkers I'm suet trying to absorb all yer info, but, like me are beginners and don't know the questions to ask.

sundiver
11-22-2010, 08:57 PM
Yes, unfortunately only a few are involved in this blog. Honestly I don't get it. I wish there was more passion for art.
.

While there is no question you have a lot to offer and are being most generous with your knowledge, members and others are free to comment in this thread, or not, as they wish, without it being any indication of their level of "passion". :)
The tendency to "clone" leads to a lot of frustration, doesn't it? I have read about the Goldilocks idea in a Craig Nelson book. Except he recommends Papa, Baby, Mama, in that order so it's a more uneven progression.

Michael, I also love that Colin Page painting, and spent an hour looking up his work after seeing that one. Beautiful.

cremo
11-23-2010, 05:32 AM
Thank you for teaching us all this basic knowledge, I was missing lots of the rule you are telling us.

Your posts are much appriciated!
Gianluca.

Johannes Instructor
11-23-2010, 10:11 AM
Thank you for teaching us all this basic knowledge, I was missing lots of the rule you are telling us.

Your posts are much appriciated!
Gianluca.

There are about 100 priniciples that are used to create successful landscape paintings.

Al Skaar
11-23-2010, 08:20 PM
Do you have the original photo of your "Malad Gorge"? Can I offer you another suggestion? Instead of trying to make things look real and rearrange all those little areas into larger more abstract shapes, you will be much more pleased with it. If you look at the other thread on Aspevig you will see that I mapped out the abstract shapes. If you can do this and work from the right brain your paintings will look more designed. Here is the link:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14410&page=8
Hi Johannes - The large shapes in this landscape are what attracted me to the scene and I did consider them when doing the painting. I also kept in mind the direction of the light and Carlson's discussion of planes and how they affect values.

I guess I don't subscribe to the right-brain/left-brain theory so I need a more concrete description of what you mean regarding the abstract shapes and "melodic lines".

Here is the original photo of the scene and the part of it I used for the painting.

602971

I drew the shapes as I see them. The arrow at the top indicates the direction of the light.

602981

Thanks in advance for your comments and clarification!

Johannes Instructor
11-23-2010, 11:32 PM
Hi Johannes - The large shapes in this landscape are what attracted me to the scene and I did consider them when doing the painting. I also kept in mind the direction of the light and Carlson's discussion of planes and how they affect values.

I guess I don't subscribe to the right-brain/left-brain theory so I need a more concrete description of what you mean regarding the abstract shapes and "melodic lines".

Here is the original photo of the scene and the part of it I used for the painting.

602971

I drew the shapes as I see them. The arrow at the top indicates the direction of the light.

602981

Thanks in advance for your comments and clarification!
Ok I am looking at your design. I feel you were to true to the photo. Allow yourself to stretch or contract areas and shapes as well as redesign them into more abstract shapes. Below is your outline which I have assigned letters.
1. Shapes a and b are dividing right in the middle. The same applies to shapes c and d.
2. Shape c ends up in a geometrical shape not ABSTRACT shape. This also forced the river to flow in a "C" whereas a lazy "Z" movement would be more pleasing.
3. Notice how shapes a, d and f all line up in a tangent. You can almost use a ruler to draw a straight line which resulted in the sky shape to end up in a rectangle.
4. If you look at the cast shadow near the river, you will see two equal protrusions. When we clone shapes it takes a toll on the painting. The cast shadow shape is not abstract therefore.
You may say that you used the photo and copied what you saw but I have still yet to meet a top artist who will just use a photo at face value. If you are in my age group you may remember a toy called, "Silly Putty". I remember I used to spread this out on a comic book and end up with a copy of that comic picture printed right on the putty. Then I was able to stretch this image any which way I wanted. This of your photo like that. Pretend you can stretch and contract shapes to make the design more pleasing.

Johannes Instructor
11-23-2010, 11:47 PM
Here is a painting I am working on. After careful observation I located the three main masses; the sky, the mountain range and the terrain. I will assign a predominat value to each mass. I decided on the following

1. Terrain: lightest value
2. Sky: the in between value. Usually I designate the sky to be the lightest mass, but when it comes to sunlit dry grass that ends up being lighter than the sky. That plus white snow or white water foam would be the only exceptions, otherwise the sky takes on the lightest value.
3. Mountain range: the darkest value

I noticed that the terrain mass and the mountain range mass shared the same amount of square inches so I asked myself what mass is most important. As far as equal square inches, the sky was not that far off either. The next step is to decide which mass would get the largest pictorial space. I opted for the mountain mass to be the most important and the sky the least important. Therefore I stretched the mountain higher and ate into the sky to reduce its size. So now I did my drawing to ensure each mass would be obviously different in size. The mountain range, the largest mass, the terrain the second largest, and the sky the smallest mass.
The next thing I did was to transfer the IDEA (not the actual photo) onto my masonite board. I chnaged the lines to make them more melodic and the shapes more abstract. By doing the latter I tapped into my right brain as much as possible. (The book "Painting from the Artist's Brain by Carl Purcell) deals in depth with this. It is one of the best books I have ever read.). If you look at the photos below you will see the procedure of my block in which I am thinking in abstract shapes. This is not a completed painting yet. But even so if I were to stop right there I would still end up with a pleasing design and could call it an abstract landscape painting.
The details that I add later will of course make it more realistic. As I progress in the painting I will paint abstract shapes within the abstract masses. I keep painting more abstract shapes within these abstract shapes until I end up as small as accents which are also abstract shapes.

Al Skaar
11-24-2010, 08:24 PM
Ok I am looking at your design. I feel you were to true to the photo. Allow yourself to stretch or contract areas and shapes as well as redesign them into more abstract shapes. Below is your outline which I have assigned letters.
1. Shapes a and b are dividing right in the middle. The same applies to shapes c and d.
2. Shape c ends up in a geometrical shape not ABSTRACT shape. This also forced the river to flow in a "C" whereas a lazy "Z" movement would be more pleasing.
3. Notice how shapes a, d and f all line up in a tangent. You can almost use a ruler to draw a straight line which resulted in the sky shape to end up in a rectangle.
4. If you look at the cast shadow near the river, you will see two equal protrusions. When we clone shapes it takes a toll on the painting. The cast shadow shape is not abstract therefore.
You may say that you used the photo and copied what you saw but I have still yet to meet a top artist who will just use a photo at face value. If you are in my age group you may remember a toy called, "Silly Putty". I remember I used to spread this out on a comic book and end up with a copy of that comic picture printed right on the putty. Then I was able to stretch this image any which way I wanted. This of your photo like that. Pretend you can stretch and contract shapes to make the design more pleasing.

Hi Johannes - Thanks very much for your critique and clarification.

Regarding your comment #2: I don't understand what you mean about shape C being geometric, rather than abstract. It doesn't look like a geometric shape to me. What do you mean by "geometrical shape" and "abstract shape"?

Regarding your comment #3, about the tangent... I adjusted the levels of the canyon rim so that they didn't line up perfectly, and maybe I can exaggerate that a little more, but avoiding that rectangular sky shape is a real challenge with land as flat as a table top. Perhaps I could raise the horizon line and reduce the amount of sky so that the trees and distant mountain would have a bigger impact on the sky shape - and maybe make the mountain a little bigger.

#4: Those pesky clones! That is an easy fix.

Thanks again Johannes, for taking the time to analyze and critique this piece, and for defining some of the terms you use to describe the principles you talk about.

- Al

edtree
11-24-2010, 08:46 PM
Thank you for all this great information, Johannes. I read with interest your thought process as you worked out the composition of your painting. I have been guilty to this point of most times not giving these things a lot of pre-thought. My lack of study is probably one of the reasons I am not a successful artist.

And so, these lessons are sending me back to the drawing board. I decided to try three abstract rock shapes, trying my darndest NOT to clone, keep the three shapes different values, and making abstract shapes within the shapes. I have progressed and adjusted from the photo below but my computer is having port problems (sigh).

If you remember the repetitive rocks from the painting I shared a week or so ago, I hope you see an improvement. Thanks again for your expertise.

Elizabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Nov-2010/94944-DSCN02320001.JPG

Johannes Instructor
11-25-2010, 12:31 AM
Hi Johannes - Thanks very much for your critique and clarification.

Regarding your comment #2: I don't understand what you mean about shape C being geometric, rather than abstract. It doesn't look like a geometric shape to me. What do you mean by "geometrical shape" and "abstract shape"?

Regarding your comment #3, about the tangent... I adjusted the levels of the canyon rim so that they didn't line up perfectly, and maybe I can exaggerate that a little more, but avoiding that rectangular sky shape is a real challenge with land as flat as a table top. Perhaps I could raise the horizon line and reduce the amount of sky so that the trees and distant mountain would have a bigger impact on the sky shape - and maybe make the mountain a little bigger.

#4: Those pesky clones! That is an easy fix.

Thanks again Johannes, for taking the time to analyze and critique this piece, and for defining some of the terms you use to describe the principles you talk about.

- Al

What caught my eye immediately was that the land mass that meets the water has a almost perfect triangular shape. It points like an arrowhead. You can change the angle or remove the pointy arrow portion to make it more interesting.
The river flows in a "C" movement. If you change this to an "S" movement the flow will be more pleasing.

Dharma_bum
11-25-2010, 12:52 AM
Johannes, I just discovered this (and the main Aspevig) thread. I don't quite understand what you meant a while back about doing a "free lecture" using a whiteboard. How would we view this? I for one would be interested, just don't know how you would go about it. I hope you will continue to share your knowledge about the landscape. I know I supper from overly dark paintings, hope I can make some adjustments based on what I've seen here so far. I also ordered the Purcell book.

Dan

sundiver
11-25-2010, 05:35 AM
Johannes, I just discovered this (and the main Aspevig) thread. I don't quite understand what you meant a while back about doing a "free lecture" using a whiteboard. How would we view this? I for one would be interested, just don't know how you would go about it. I hope you will continue to share your knowledge about the landscape. I know I supper from overly dark paintings, hope I can make some adjustments based on what I've seen here so far. I also ordered the Purcell book.

Dan

If it's a video, it can be put onto YouTube and then embedded right here in this thread.

greg p
11-25-2010, 06:06 AM
johannes thank you for the time and effort in sharing your knowledge with us, the examples are most helpful to a new guy who wishes to learn as i do. great reading! greg

Johannes Instructor
11-25-2010, 08:31 AM
Johannes, I just discovered this (and the main Aspevig) thread. I don't quite understand what you meant a while back about doing a "free lecture" using a whiteboard. How would we view this? I for one would be interested, just don't know how you would go about it. I hope you will continue to share your knowledge about the landscape. I know I supper from overly dark paintings, hope I can make some adjustments based on what I've seen here so far. I also ordered the Purcell book.

Dan
I have a virtual whiteboard where several people can watch while I display pictures and point out things. Also GoToMeeting is excellent for people to directly see my photoshop screen while hear me on mike. So far though you have been the only person that has taken me up on this. WHY? I have no clue. If more people were to jump in they would see that the techniques I would reveal will make so much sense.

Johannes Instructor
11-25-2010, 11:10 AM
Thank you for all this great information, Johannes. I read with interest your thought process as you worked out the composition of your painting. I have been guilty to this point of most times not giving these things a lot of pre-thought. My lack of study is probably one of the reasons I am not a successful artist.

And so, these lessons are sending me back to the drawing board. I decided to try three abstract rock shapes, trying my darndest NOT to clone, keep the three shapes different values, and making abstract shapes within the shapes. I have progressed and adjusted from the photo below but my computer is having port problems (sigh).

If you remember the repetitive rocks from the painting I shared a week or so ago, I hope you see an improvement. Thanks again for your expertise.

Elizabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Nov-2010/94944-DSCN02320001.JPG

In representational landscape painting objects are to be readily noticeable for what they represent. I was not able to discern what your drawing was without you defining it in words. Therefore the shape did not read by itself. I believe your shape has too many jagged edges. In this forum I posted a painting from Clyde Aspevig that he did at Otter Cliffs, Acadia National Park in Maine. I outlined all the abstract shapes of the rocks. If you want I can send you the photo of the painting. You may want to copy this painting. Also when I give my classes I ask the students to find some large gravel stones normally found at new home contruction sites and to handpick some stone that have interesting angles and draw them till they get blisters on their fingers.

Johannes Instructor
11-25-2010, 01:02 PM
Al Skaar,

I did an outline of your photo. You will see the visual music or melodic lines as the eye dances over these lines following its musical notes. I hope this clarifies what Clyde Aspevig does that places his paintings way above the norm.

dollardays
11-25-2010, 07:37 PM
Johannes-- Please post the proposed date and time of your whiteboard presentation here as I am sure many here are interested in participating.
Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge!
Nora

fishpimp
11-25-2010, 07:55 PM
Johannes, will you look at my post called "what next" in this forum an give me some ideas on how to finish or save it? Appreciate it, Phil.

Johannes Instructor
11-25-2010, 09:13 PM
Johannes, will you look at my post called "what next" in this forum an give me some ideas on how to finish or save it? Appreciate it, Phil.
Could you please be more specific. I can't find it. Please post the link for me.

Johannes Instructor
11-25-2010, 09:43 PM
Al Skaar,

Once I do my linear design I will do several thumbnail sketches in order to assign the three major masses, Mid Light, Mid and Mid dark. I try to plan each mass to be more predominant in square inches so they don't compete. As you can see in the figure below, the mid value mass takes up the most pictorial space followed by a subordinate mid dark and the mid light mass being the smallest mass. I try to make the largest mass end up in a mid value for most sunlit day scenes unless I am depicting a late afternoon, almost twilight mood. During the painting process I try to keep all the shapes and details in those masses approximately with the same value as the assigned mass. Example: the mid value mass would have areas whose values would not exceed a value 4 and 5. The Mid dark value mass would not have any shape in that mass go over a 6 and 7 and finally the mid light value mass would not have anything crossing over from a 2 and 3 (1 being white and 10 being black).
So in the painting that would result from the thumbnail sketch below I would make sure the river, the sides of the canyon,the rocks and the grass end up in a value 4 and 5 when seen in a gray scale conversion. The vertical canyon wall in shadow that was assigned a mid dark value would be a 7 and the slanted terrain would be a value 6. The sky value and the canyon flat planes would be the same value but their colors will make the distinction of what they are.
Try to connect all the shapes of equal value to the main mass. All the above will avoid a fractured look and I guarantee your painting will be much more pleasing than scattering all the different values all over the painting which ends up with a stacking broken effect, like poker chips all stacked in different colors.
The only exception to these priniciples would be accents (example: the hollow part under a bush) to make things look 3D which would be around a number 8 value. I will try to stay away from value 9 and 10 for these values will only appear as bullet hole in the painting. If I want something to look brighter I will use the paint chroma. For example a tree with cadmium yellow mixed in with green will still look sunlit even it it ends up being a mid value.Very few artists apply this concept. Very few artists know this concept and very few artists understand this concept. However this is one of the secrets I was telling you that the top artists know but you won't find it being revealed easily. Finally, what makes a painting look busy is not so much the detail in it but the hop scotching values scattered randomly making it hard for the viewer to process the visual information. Also this stops the eye in its path making it uncomfortable to assimlate.
Top professional artists are constantly thinking in grays not color when painting always comparing to surrounding ares to make sure the values are not being broken.

Johannes Instructor
11-25-2010, 10:48 PM
Johannes, will you look at my post called "what next" in this forum an give me some ideas on how to finish or save it? Appreciate it, Phil.

I am looking at the painting. Right off the bat I like the simplicity and the visual line of the roof tops is pleasant. Here is a quick recommendation that works all the time. Ask yourself this question when planning a painting. What is the painting about? Is it about the sky? If yes the it becomes a sky scape. The terrain? The Lake? The mountains? The buildings? Once you answer that question then the theme of the painting should take up most of the pictorial space and be the richest in information so it is entertaining. All the other areas should just compliment the main area and become subordinate. In this painting I would ask myself. What is the painting about? The answer is obvious. It is about the buildings. Therefore I will trim away all the other areas so they dont compete for pictorial attention. I made sure the sky and the dirt street would not share equal square inches. I decided to reduce the sky all the way down to show a portion of the building to be cut off. I have a policy in my work to avoid equal corners. Had I left blue sky on both sides we would've ended up with equal corners.
Look at the before and after of your painting. Notice how you seem to be more engaged with the buildings with the cropped version.

Johannes Instructor
11-26-2010, 03:04 PM
Johannes, I just discovered this (and the main Aspevig) thread. I don't quite understand what you meant a while back about doing a "free lecture" using a whiteboard. How would we view this? I for one would be interested, just don't know how you would go about it. I hope you will continue to share your knowledge about the landscape. I know I supper from overly dark paintings, hope I can make some adjustments based on what I've seen here so far. I also ordered the Purcell book.

Dan
I'm not getting enough seekers. I guess lots of people feel they don't need more knowledge. To each their own.

Dharma_bum
11-26-2010, 03:59 PM
Johannes,

Please have a little patience, I saw evidence of plenty of interest within this thread and the first one. Perhaps starting a new thread where all could see, not just the followers of this and the first thread, would put it out front of more people. Also, remember this is Thanksgiving weekend, many are preoccupied with food preparation, family, friends, recovery from the former, and Black Friday shopping. :)

Would everyone need to have the GoToMeeting software, or just you, the originator? I Goolged it, appears that a one month free trial is available, after which it's $49.00 monthly.

As others have suggested, if you propose a tentative date and time (including time zone) for the first "meeting", you would probably get a more accurate idea of the actual interest. This could then be adjusted if necessary to be able to include as many participants as possible. [I'd vote for afternoon or evening.] In addition to the plein air forum, I would also post the offer in the oil, acrylic, and pastel talk forums (fora?). And give some details as to how the session would work. I was completely mystified as to the mechanics of how a session could work before seeing the GTM page. If you do these things, I would not be at all surprised if you would have enough participants to make this happen. I think this could be a great opportunity for all involved. If the session/sessions could in some way be recorded and posted on youtube, that would be an additional benefit. both for those who couldn't make the live session, as well as for going back for review.

Dan

Johannes Instructor
11-26-2010, 04:37 PM
Johannes,

Please have a little patience, I saw evidence of plenty of interest within this thread and the first one. Perhaps starting a new thread where all could see, not just the followers of this and the first thread, would put it out front of more people. Also, remember this is Thanksgiving weekend, many are preoccupied with food preparation, family, friends, recovery from the former, and Black Friday shopping. :)

Would everyone need to have the GoToMeeting software, or just you, the originator? I Goolged it, appears that a one month free trial is available, after which it's $49.00 monthly.

As others have suggested, if you propose a tentative date and time (including time zone) for the first "meeting", you would probably get a more accurate idea of the actual interest. This could then be adjusted if necessary to be able to include as many participants as possible. [I'd vote for afternoon or evening.] In addition to the plein air forum, I would also post the offer in the oil, acrylic, and pastel talk forums (fora?). And give some details as to how the session would work. I was completely mystified as to the mechanics of how a session could work before seeing the GTM page. If you do these things, I would not be at all surprised if you would have enough participants to make this happen. I think this could be a great opportunity for all involved. If the session/sessions could in some way be recorded and posted on youtube, that would be an additional benefit. both for those who couldn't make the live session, as well as for going back for review.

Dan

None of the attendees need to worry about the subscription. I have it covered. All you would have to do is click on a link and just install a brief sotware and voila you are in. Also you would need a head set to hear my voice. What I like is for an artist who is really in love with landscape painting that I would mentor in exchange of promoting these online classes in the forum. Maybe you are the one? The condition is you must be crazyily obsessed with representational landscape painting and want to improve more that anything else. Most people I have dealt with make weak attempts at art. They are not head over heels with it and the only way to get good is by taking an athlete's attitude. None of the top artists get that good just by goofing around. I saw Jim Wilcox for example visit the same seascape 5 days every morning in a row to memorize the scene and understand how water moves against rocks. That's what it takes.

Johannes Instructor
11-26-2010, 05:16 PM
There seems to have been a bit more interest in the live online lecture. We will be analysing techniques from top artists such as Clyde Aspevig, Matt Smith, Scott Christensen and Jim Wilcox. The proposed time is 12 pm EST on December 4 which is a Saturday. In case you are interested snd me an email to give you instructions to sign up. This will be free. I will not ask for any credit card information. My email is [email protected]

sketchZ1ol
11-26-2010, 06:48 PM
hello
a very lively and informative thread
and imho, a genuine exchange between artists.
one thing that strikes me is that
most of the scenes have an inherent opportunity to
emphasize depth by the location
and how the viewer makes sense of it by
visual recollection/comparison

as a side comment, my own conclusion about values is that
the Colour of a dark value is hardest to read,
depending on light source and surrounding highlights,
at between 200-300 feet and therefore appears closest to
black
- that one painting with the road, buildings, and foliage
uses that idea

i'll try and post something that i've painted to add to this discussion

:} Ed

Johannes Instructor
11-26-2010, 07:34 PM
hello
a very lively and informative thread
and imho, a genuine exchange between artists.
one thing that strikes me is that
most of the scenes have an inherent opportunity to
emphasize depth by the location
and how the viewer makes sense of it by
visual recollection/comparison

as a side comment, my own conclusion about values is that
the Colour of a dark value is hardest to read,
depending on light source and surrounding highlights,
at between 200-300 feet and therefore appears closest to
black
- that one painting with the road, buildings, and foliage
uses that idea

i'll try and post something that i've painted to add to this discussion

:} Ed

That's right when you look at a section from 10 feet away and you cannot call out its hue it is too dark.

Johannes Instructor
11-26-2010, 07:46 PM
"as a side comment, my own conclusion about values is that the Colour of a dark value is hardest to read, depending on light source and surrounding highlights,"

That's why if you read back I recommend that the majority of the painting end up in a mid gray value where the colours show well.

sketchZ1ol
11-26-2010, 08:00 PM
hello
yes, and yes
the piece shown of Colin Page is what brought the observation to mind
and in his piece the darks are a point of reference for
the changes of depth and temp, no ?
:} Ed

Johannes Instructor
11-26-2010, 08:39 PM
Well the other paintings of Colin Page do have mid dark masses. The one done at Acadia National Park on Cadillac mountain called, "Bald Rock Puddle". has a mid dark mass. By me knowing where the scene is from without Colin mentioning where the scene is from tells you I have been there done that. I have done 1000's of outdoor paintings. I even know exactly where that spot is. My visual memory does not fail me. LOL

sketchZ1ol
11-26-2010, 11:04 PM
hello
no challenge to your expertise
my point was simply an observation/conclusion
from real life -
it's the absence of any distinctive colour
at that value and distance
which appears black in a relative way

how that is dealt with, artistically, is
part of making the painting

i respect dedicated landscape artists as much as i trust my eyes
- that 'something' that makes a painting :)

:} Ed
ps. use of colour/value in a painting is something which may be approached, but never matched with photo, film, etc
so i'm on board with you

climber-man
11-27-2010, 01:23 AM
Ok guys, I've read this thread, and I'm rambling, but stick with me. How do we as artists take the evidence of Aspevig's sense of color, and convert it into something simple for us to use. Maybe it's just saying use warm and cool, but I don't feel like that meets it. Maybe which colors to mix together? I don't know, but I do notice that Aspevig does an incredible job taking accurate color which presents what we expect to see, and enhanced color which is an exaggeration of how we see the world, and creating amazing paintings. I always find that the most basic understandings are the most profound, unfortunately, it's hard to put that knowledge gained by experience into knowledge that can be gained by reading.

Johannes Instructor
11-27-2010, 11:57 AM
Ok guys, I've read this thread, and I'm rambling, but stick with me. How do we as artists take the evidence of Aspevig's sense of color, and convert it into something simple for us to use. Maybe it's just saying use warm and cool, but I don't feel like that meets it. Maybe which colors to mix together? I don't know, but I do notice that Aspevig does an incredible job taking accurate color which presents what we expect to see, and enhanced color which is an exaggeration of how we see the world, and creating amazing paintings. I always find that the most basic understandings are the most profound, unfortunately, it's hard to put that knowledge gained by experience into knowledge that can be gained by reading.
Yes, I agree that Aspevig has the best color results. The problems mostly appear when dealing with greens so I will just address that issue for now. When copied from nature greens tend to be too neon looking. Green grass looks good in real life but very hard to make it work in a painting. Clyde will use yellow ochre very often and mix that color in the greens as well as burnt sienna. If you compare most of his green trees they match up with a martini glass olive and he tries not to make the value go so light so the trees won't shout. I would strongly recommend not to use sap green or any neutral yellow that would be a primary color. Sap green only works for flowers. My palette is quite similar to Clyde Aspevig's. I use Windsor and Newton artist quality because I like the huge tubes of 200 ml. in which I can squeeze out a generous amount and not feel I lost a big amount. Besides Windsor and Newton has great deals on their largest tube sizes. Clyde likes Holbein.

My palette is

Titanium white
Cadmium Yellow
Yellow ochre pale
burnt sienna
Cadmium orange
Cobalt blue
Ultramarine Blue
Viridian green
Indian Red

When I mix green highlights for trees I use
Cadmiun Yellow (to avoid chalky results. I only use enough to avoid the chalky look)
Yellow ochre pale
Burnt sienna
Viridian Green

I have hundreds of photos of Clyde's paintings many of which I have taken from his work personally. One things that you will see quite often is that he limits the greens in his paintings and works more with the golden colors allowing greens just for touches and variety to the yellows, somewhat like spice rather than a main ingredient. He prefers the yellow orange to red orange color scheme. Clyde hardly uses medium and when he does he uses Liquin.

Stay way from all Winton or other student quality paints unless you want to create heavy impasto in which white would be ok as long as you apply it on a dry surface. I will not use student quality pigments for general mixing and painting. I was sponsored once to use Graham paints but I had to turn them down because it was very difficult to place layer upon layer. Their walnut oil based paints are too slippery and it takes a long time to dry. When compared to the large tubes of Windsor and Newton you really dont save that much.
Below is one of my paintings I just completed. The original scene has more green grass in it but I altered that to dry grass.

Johannes Instructor
11-27-2010, 01:00 PM
Melting Glaciers 36 X 48" oil on Masonite

climber-man
11-27-2010, 02:04 PM
Thanks Johannes, and it really did address my question. Paying attention to the greens and specific colors is about as direct as can be, it should be easily put to use!

winecountry
11-27-2010, 11:33 PM
Posting this for critique.........ArtofJohannes, I'm very new to landscape, just a few months.

Here is my first attempt to put into use many of the things pointed out in this and the other thread. It was done plein air...and it was a very unfortunate choice of composition of 2 very disparate trees, so mostly it was an exercise to overcome the cloning thing which has been bugging me no end. I'm posting photos of the place, I had to quit before I was done as a major downpour started and I had to run for the car. I moved rocks and some trees from the refs, and tried to simplify, and keep from getting too dark I saw the trees as 2 abstract shapes, the water, and the sky, but that disappeared as it kept changing from blue to stormy to flat and the willow tree obscured it at last. So mostly I want to know how I did on value, and not cloning, the rest is pretty much a mess. the keeping of different intervals and melodic line is so hard, if I take my mind off it for one second it starts to get even...I'm sure with practice is will become second nature, but now ...whew

I think I'm on the Edison composition track. Edison did 16,000 experiments to find a filament for the first lightbulb, he was asked how he found it and said I eliminated everything that didn't work and that left what did...:lol: Hopefully I'll learn faster than that.

oldradagast
11-28-2010, 07:42 PM
ArtofJohannes: That melting glacier painting is very helpful in explaining how the grass isn't really just "green" - I remember being shocked when I realized just how much yellow is actually in the grasses (and trees, bushes, etc.) painted by skilled landscape artists.

Thanks for all the lessons thus far!

fishpimp
11-28-2010, 08:48 PM
Could you please be more specific. I can't find it. Please post the link for me.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=787981
I appreciate tips for future referrence and need help mostly with what or how to finish this.

Johannes Instructor
11-28-2010, 09:10 PM
A quick suggestion to this painting. Avoid creating two equal sides on opposite sides of the painting. In this case we pratically have a mirrored effect with the evergreen trees. Jerry Yarnel as much as he he has some pleasant areas in some paintings I feel he overworks them and creates many left brain areas rather than right brain asymetrical areas. If has his trees similar to your painting then he cloned the second area. He could benefit from reading the book called, "Painting with the Artist's Brain" from carl Purcell.

winecountry
11-28-2010, 11:05 PM
Stupendous examples, thank you so much really explains your points. And that underpaint thing also helps something that has really flustered me. I've been solving it by scraping it back off, would be nice not to do it in the first place.

fishpimp
11-28-2010, 11:15 PM
Thank you.

antgeek
11-29-2010, 01:24 AM
I just discovered this awesome thread, and hope to join in the whiteboard discussion. My work is begging for me to learn these concepts! I sent an email to Artof Johannes.

Johannes Instructor
11-29-2010, 08:38 AM
Stupendous examples, thank you so much really explains your points. And that underpaint thing also helps something that has really flustered me. I've been solving it by scraping it back off, would be nice not to do it in the first place.

Yeah, next time just rub the paint on when the intention is to paint over top.

deanster04
11-29-2010, 10:18 AM
Im interested in your online lecture that you were talking about the other day
\/


:wave:

There seems to have been a bit more interest in the live online lecture. We will be analysing techniques from top artists such as Clyde Aspevig, Matt Smith, Scott Christensen and Jim Wilcox. The proposed time is 12 pm EST on December 4 which is a Saturday. In case you are interested snd me an email to give you instructions to sign up. This will be free. I will not ask for any credit card information. My email is [email protected]

deanster04
11-29-2010, 10:20 AM
I was looking at clydes paintings on his website and wondering how does he get his water to look so wet and glossy. Does anybody know his technique. I always have trouble with my water

smad3
11-29-2010, 05:22 PM
Hi All:
My intention is to take part of the Dec 4 meeting on this thread.
Sure hope to have more join in as it looks to be an interesting and informative time.
regards
Stephen

sundiver
11-29-2010, 07:32 PM
Hi All:
My intention is to take part of the Dec 4 meeting on this thread.
Sure hope to have more join in as it looks to be an interesting and informative time.
regards
Stephen

From the looks of it, it will not be on this thread or even on WetCanvas, which is unfortunate IMO, because an embedded video here, even if not "live", would reach so many more WC members and would not be time-sensitive.

Johannes Instructor
11-29-2010, 07:47 PM
From the looks of it, it will not be on this thread or even on WetCanvas, which is unfortunate IMO, because an embedded video here, even if not "live", would reach so many more WC members and would not be time-sensitive.
I prefer live interactive events because that way the attendees can ask questions that concern their own issues. Also the live critiques will be personalized. Every other online class is not live and interactive. Hopefully some of you will have some questions ready to address in the lecture. I wish to emphasize that this will have no cost. I have finished my painting commissions and have some free time on my hands to share techniques with all of you. I know how difficult it is to go higher in painting level without certain uncommonloy known keys. Let's say I am defending traditional art and putting my two cents in so people can improve and become more skilled artists. There is still time for some of you to let me know if you will take the December 4 lecture at 12 pm EST. All you need to do is click on from "gotomeeting.com" to get in. You can take a look at my artwork here:
http://cyberartlearning.com/onlinegallery

edtree
11-29-2010, 08:38 PM
In representational landscape painting objects are to be readily noticeable for what they represent. I was not able to discern what your drawing was without you defining it in words. Therefore the shape did not read by itself. I believe your shape has too many jagged edges. In this forum I posted a painting from Clyde Aspevig that he did at Otter Cliffs, Acadia National Park in Maine. I outlined all the abstract shapes of the rocks. If you want I can send you the photo of the painting. You may want to copy this painting. Also when I give my classes I ask the students to find some large gravel stones normally found at new home contruction sites and to handpick some stone that have interesting angles and draw them till they get blisters on their fingers.

Thank you, Johannes, I would appreciate the opportunity to copy the Otter Cliffs. I'm sure I would learn a lot from the experience. Also, I will scrap the failed experiment I posted earlier and try the exercise you recommend by finding some large gravel stones to practice on. I would also like to attend your upcoming class though I am having surgery tomorrow. I hope to be up to the class by Sunday. I'll send you an email though my attendance will be tentative.

Elizabeth

Davkin
11-29-2010, 09:11 PM
I prefer live interactive events because that way the attendees can ask questions that concern their own issues. Also the live critiques will be personalized. Every other online class is not live and interactive. Hopefully some of you will have some questions ready to address in the lecture. I wish to emphasize that this will have no cost. I have finished my painting commissions and have some free time on my hands to share techniques with all of you. I know how difficult it is to go higher in painting level without certain uncommonloy known keys. Let's say I am defending traditional art and putting my two cents in so people can improve and become more skilled artists. There is still time for some of you to let me know if you will take the December 4 lecture at 12 pm EST. All you need to do is click on from "gotomeeting.com" to get in. You can take a look at my artwork here:
http://cyberartlearning.com/onlinegallery

Well, I'm up for it. I need to install some software before hand? I get that from gotmeeting.com? How do we get to your specific meeting at the appointed time?

Thanks

David

winecountry
11-29-2010, 09:24 PM
when an artist is willing to share so much so generously, respecting the boundaries they set seems worthwhile to me. Also tho some cannot for reasons out of their control attend, it does make one have a stronger comittment to be there and not just say oh well I can always do it later.

Johannes Instructor
11-29-2010, 09:58 PM
Thank you, Johannes, I would appreciate the opportunity to copy the Otter Cliffs. I'm sure I would learn a lot from the experience. Also, I will scrap the failed experiment I posted earlier and try the exercise you recommend by finding some large gravel stones to practice on. I would also like to attend your upcoming class though I am having surgery tomorrow. I hope to be up to the class by Sunday. I'll send you an email though my attendance will be tentative.

Elizabeth

The class is Saturday Dec 4 12 pm est

Johannes Instructor
11-29-2010, 09:59 PM
Well, I'm up for it. I need to install some software before hand? I get that from gotmeeting.com? How do we get to your specific meeting at the appointed time?

Thanks

David
I will send all of you the link on Tuesday along with instructions.

Johannes Instructor
11-29-2010, 10:04 PM
Hi All:
My intention is to take part of the Dec 4 meeting on this thread.
Sure hope to have more join in as it looks to be an interesting and informative time.
regards
Stephen

This thread does not host a gotomeeting embedded option. So you will not be able to visit it thru this thread. In the upcoming days I will post the link to visit the event.

JTMB
11-29-2010, 10:36 PM
I'll be attending as well - great info here.

winecountry
11-30-2010, 05:15 PM
well lets hope this thread stays up.

I know WC has all kinds of rules about what can be posted and probably with good reason, esp on solicitation. But Johannes is for real and there is nothing he wants, no scam or bait and switch or " marketing " of any kind so there would be no reason to take this down. Just saying it before hand so hopefully the community can share with me some of what he freely gave in a 2 HOUR session I did with him on Skype, I didn't have a mic so I typed and he talked, there is no charge for skype, and it was my first time using it.

He is one of the best teachers I've ever encountered( I have two degrees in art and 40 years of painting so I've had a lot of teachers) using clear examples and metatphors to explain his points, He used one of my posted paintings to start then got onto bigger concepts, and used other art to explain and show, He def is not promoting himself and is exactly as he says wanting to help artists gain skills that have been lost to us for a long time, things the old landscape painters of say 1850-1950 knew and were taught.

Here are some of the highlights of my session, and by all means tune in on Dec 4 as he will be explaining this better than I can.

These are just random sentences I wrote down
trees
•If you are cropping a tree in the pic frame crop at 1/3 or 2/3rds not 1/2
•Evergreen trees sides of positive and negative shapes are different for each side not like a farmed christmas tree shape.
•If you are working on say an 11x14 surface then a 4 story tall tree is going to be scaled to about 6 " so you can't just copy the shape, you don't see 30 jagged edges, you see only a few in one place the rest are blurred shapes in your vision. You need to slow down the line and create a symbol of the tree that represents the real object, in other words invent a visual equivalent of the the experience, that is lovely to look at.

The picture frame is 4 straight sides, so the abstract shapes within it have to compensate for that, tune in Dec 4 its too much to type here, on this issue but it is crucial for making a good painting.

His clear and simple explanation of values in masses means, bottom line, only 2 values per mass, mid light, mid and mid dark areas, and he clearly showed me how the values compress and gave me a perfect guideline to figure it out in the field. I'll try that out today.

He talked about making gracious shapes and lines, I love that word it means so much more is going on that trying to capture some object.


So if there is anyway you can be there Dec 4 don't miss out on this opportunity to really go beyond what ever level you are and skip years of groping piecemeal.

I could see why he wants to do it his way, He had the whiteboard and drew on it in realtime, and I could hear easily and follow along, just like a live demo, and I could ask questions that were immediately addressed. His style is conversational not dogmatic, and he clearly addresses what you ask.

A more gracious and generous artist I have never met :thumbsup:

Johannes Instructor
11-30-2010, 07:19 PM
Everyone here is welcome to attend the upcoming free lecture-class on landscape painting this Saturday December 4, 2010 at noon EST. I am reserving two hours but if there is lots of interest I may extend the time. I will be revealing some of the most important techniques that I have learned from top landscape artists such as Clyde Aspevig, Matt Smith, Jim Wilcox, Scott Christensen etc. Also if time allows I can do some critiques on some of your works or if you have questions submit them to:

[email protected] ([email protected])

Here is the link for the online event. All you need to do is click on this link and it will prompt you for a small software. This comes from a third part professional company called, "GotoMeeting.com". No financial information will be asked for.

https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/960971438 (https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/960971438)

To see my work:

http://cyberartlearning.com/onlinegallery (http://cyberartlearning.com/onlinegallery)

Looking forward to seeing you.

PC-based attendees
Required: Windows® 7, Vista, XP or 2003 Server Macintosh®-based attendees
Required: Mac OS® X 10.4.11 (Tiger®) or newer

Davkin
11-30-2010, 07:37 PM
Is it possible to record the session for future reference?

David

Johannes Instructor
11-30-2010, 08:02 PM
Is it possible to record the session for future reference?

David
I prefer people show up to make it live and interactive.

Davkin
11-30-2010, 08:17 PM
Yes, I understand that, I was talking about for future reference. Even if I could somehow record the whole session directly to my own computer while I'm in it I'd be happy to do that. Does anybody know of freeware that will do that? I know I'll forget much of what is taught, so being able to bring up a video to view again in the future would be very helpful.

David

winecountry
11-30-2010, 09:51 PM
Here is a rework of the Spring Lake work after the session with Johannes to apply some of what he taught me. I think you can see a difference, tho of course I need to do many more paintings to get it set in, but I think this is a big change for only one lesson with him.

the first onehttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Nov-2010/103030-spring_lake_first_image.jpg

the new one
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Nov-2010/103030-spring_lake_revise3309.jpg

winecountry
12-01-2010, 12:06 AM
thanks Johannes, beautiful examples....I'm going to take a walk over there, where I sit is so far away I can't see the shore line well, I'll inspect it up close so I can see what is happening and add it to my next work.

Sure do feel excited to have the new info you gave me and know it's going to make a big difference in how I work.Thank you again, I'm very grateful you came on WC to offer this.

Michaelmcg
12-01-2010, 02:33 AM
Please do record it, because there probably are other "unfortunates" like me who do not have access to sufficient broadband speed to enable skype!

Michael

Johannes Instructor
12-01-2010, 10:50 AM
thanks Johannes, beautiful examples....I'm going to take a walk over there, where I sit is so far away I can't see the shore line well, I'll inspect it up close so I can see what is happening and add it to my next work.

Sure do feel excited to have the new info you gave me and know it's going to make a big difference in how I work.Thank you again, I'm very grateful you came on WC to offer this.
You may not see the harmonic lines in nature so you make them up. You may see partial harmonic lines but not enough in nature so you exaggerate them. Think of a movie that is BASED on a real life event but the writers do not report it exactly as it was experienced.

Johannes Instructor
12-01-2010, 10:51 AM
Please do record it, because there probably are other "unfortunates" like me who do not have access to sufficient broadband speed to enable skype!

Michael
We won't use skype. We will use gotomeeting software called WEBINAR.

Davkin
12-01-2010, 11:08 AM
You may not see the harmonic lines in nature so you make them up. You may see partial harmonic lines but not enough in nature so you exaggerate them. Think of a movie that is BASED on a real life event but the writers do not report it exactly as it was experienced.

This is also what makes a painting potentially superior to a photograph. A camera and only capture what is there, a painter can improve the design.

David

Michaelmcg
12-01-2010, 12:21 PM
We won't use skype. We will use gotomeeting software called WEBINAR.

I think it's still unlikely to work for me, Johannes. I have a nominal bandwidth of 2 Mb, but I rarely get that and it's a bit "lumpy" too so doesn't lend itself to "real time" interactive video. So it looks like I'll just have to learn second from those who participate.

Any other suggestions on books? I got the Carlson book and think it's great, especially regarding the treatment of edges - things I've observed out there but didn't trust my own vision enough.

Michael

Davkin
12-01-2010, 12:49 PM
I've been reading "Landscape Painting" by Mitchell Albala and it seems to be pretty good. I'd imagine it overlaps Carlsen's in many areas, but so far it doesn't seem to cover many of the things that Johannes is talking about. I have the Carlsen book coming from Amazon.

I met a plein air painter on site a few weeks ago and he told me that the Carlson's book is all I needed. I really doubt that since it's only B&W and I don't see how you can describe very well issues regarding color without actually having color printing. The Albala books seems to cover color pretty well.

Aspevig's book is coming out soon, right? I think I'll have to save my pennies for that one, I'm sure it will be good. I read the excerpt printed in Southwest Art magazine.

David

winecountry
12-01-2010, 01:07 PM
You may not see the harmonic lines in nature so you make them up. You may see partial harmonic lines but not enough in nature so you exaggerate them. Think of a movie that is BASED on a real life event but the writers do not report it exactly as it was experienced.


Yes, I figured this out too, but since I have no stored info on how banks go, I thought looking at this one would reveal to me how it is then I can use that to structure something for the painting....I think seeing it will give me creative fodder to use, sort of like knowing the anatomy of an animal lets you make up things that are really in keeping with the "reality" of how it might move or stand.

winecountry
12-01-2010, 01:15 PM
I've been reading "Landscape Painting" by Mitchell Albala and it seems to be pretty good. I'd imagine it overlaps Carlsen's in many areas, but so far it doesn't seem to cover many of the things that Johannes is talking about. I have the Carlsen book coming from Amazon.

I met a plein air painter on site a few weeks ago and he told me that the Carlson's book is all I needed. I really doubt that since it's only B&W and I don't see how you can describe very well issues regarding color without actually having color printing. The Albala books seems to cover color pretty well.

Aspevig's book is coming out soon, right? I think I'll have to save my pennies for that one, I'm sure it will be good. I read the excerpt printed in Southwest Art magazine.

David
I have the Carlson book and it was the first one I got and I think very much a great book for a solid base. I also have the Albala book again excellent, but more of a fleshing out of some areas of painting.

What I got from Johannes yesterday is not in either of them, and IMO is much deeper in the concepts of what is actually going to get you results, and in a way for some reason I just picked up easily and haven't forgotten. The way he put it is so logical and fits together so smartly it just seems perfectly logical and natural to use, can't really explain it, just seems like " of course, I know this" maybe some of it is the info is going in through several senses at once, sight, sound and kinesthetic....so it just flows in and stays.

Seems like those without computers that are high speed, you could maybe find a library or a friend with high bandwidth to borrow for that time.

Johannes Instructor
12-01-2010, 01:25 PM
I call photos the artist's "satan. The scene is convincing but full of deceit. Since that's all most artists can go by since many don't paint outdoors there needs to be a suitable approach to their usage. When I walk into galleries or see art work I can tell right away if the artist does plein air painting or not.
a) Do not trust the photo for value
b) Do not trust the photo for colors
c) Do trust the photo for shape and detail but in most cases those shapes are not abstract enough to be appealing.

Take into account a photo is a scaled down version of the scene and when painted in that scale usually ends up in a mediocre rendering. In other word the painting does not reflect the way the eye sees. For this reason experienced artists will recreate the landscape symbols using their own pictorial language to represent the scene.
Jim Wilcox still thanks me for recommending him to buy a large high resolution TV so he would not have to print out the photo and lose a lot of its information and that if he sees the digital photo on the large TV screen it will be more accurate. A unprinited digital photo viewed from a monitor is much better than printing it. The colors and values are more reliable there must be restraint to copy them. That's why many artists do field studies to develop a strong visual memory and use the field study for color-value reference but consult the photo for details. If you are a serious artist buy the largest high definition TV you can afford or if you can't then place your computer monitor next to your canvas or watercolor paper. Avoid printing the photo if you can.
The bigger the painting the more details and texture you can put in. The smaller the painting texture shoud be reduced and it should be more simplified.

Davkin
12-01-2010, 01:49 PM
I haven't done any plein air painting yet but I've done tons of outdoor graphite pencil sketching from life and I understand what you mean. I've taken photos of the scenes I've sketched, opened them up at home on the computer and was very suprised to see the loss of so much visual information, especially in the shadows. Some of that can be retrieved by adjusting the brightness of the image but then you lose information in the highlights. It helps to have two photos for reference, the original, and one adjusted to be brighter to recover some of the information lost in the shadows.

Unfortunately a large screen is not in my budget for the foreseeable future, though my art room and computer room are the same room, (makes it a little cramped however) and the computer is near my easel so I can have the photo up on the monitor at least for quick reference but I can't put it right next to my easel.

Since I have a strong aversion to cold weather I won't be doing any plein air painting until spring, but I do have a nice little scene of my neighbor's sheep barn visible through my dining room window, so I'll be painting that two or three times during the winter. :D

David

Johannes Instructor
12-01-2010, 01:49 PM
I have the Carlson book and it was the first one I got and I think very much a great book for a solid base. I also have the Albala book again excellent, but more of a fleshing out of some areas of painting.

What I got from Johannes yesterday is not in either of them, and IMO is much deeper in the concepts of what is actually going to get you results, and in a way for some reason I just picked up easily and haven't forgotten. The way he put it is so logical and fits together so smartly it just seems perfectly logical and natural to use, can't really explain it, just seems like " of course, I know this" maybe some of it is the info is going in through several senses at once, sight, sound and kinesthetic....so it just flows in and stays.

Seems like those without computers that are high speed, you could maybe find a library or a friend with high bandwidth to borrow for that time.
What I spoke about with you the masses is addressed in the Carlson book but in such a brief way that it will be easily overlooked. There has to be several pages and plenty examples to make this understandable. And yes there quite a few things that would not appear in that book. From what I remember not more than a paragraph. A far cry from the emphasis it should be given.

Johannes Instructor
12-01-2010, 01:53 PM
I think it's still unlikely to work for me, Johannes. I have a nominal bandwidth of 2 Mb, but I rarely get that and it's a bit "lumpy" too so doesn't lend itself to "real time" interactive video. So it looks like I'll just have to learn second from those who participate.

Any other suggestions on books? I got the Carlson book and think it's great, especially regarding the treatment of edges - things I've observed out there but didn't trust my own vision enough.

Michael

My friend I will not be broadcasting streaming video. What you will be seeing is my graphic programs live. The program takes snapshots of it every second or so. As far as I know you will be ok with that bandwidth.

Johannes Instructor
12-01-2010, 02:00 PM
To clarify something. You do not need a headset to attend the meeting. You do not need a microphone either. Only if you want to verbally talk to me you do. But your comments or questions can be typed as well. All you need is to be able to hear sound from your computer.
I hope many of you can make it becuse what you will be told will revolutionize for the better the way your paintings will look. You will recognize that the golden nuggets will make so much sense. I got an email from one of you who said that I was the Wikileaks of the professional artist coverup of secrets. I thought that was funny!

Johannes Instructor
12-01-2010, 02:15 PM
I appreciate winecountry's kind comments. For the record we met just recently here from the wetcanvas forum. I spent 2 hours with Colleen one on one to address one of her paintings.

sundiver
12-01-2010, 04:31 PM
Those interested in composition might also like to visit WetCanvas' Composition and Design Forum (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=23). It's not specifically for landscapes but you can post your piece in a thread and get advice there as well as here in the Landscape Forum. (Check out this thread called Composition Checklist (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179525)- it's very good.) Johannes I'm sure your input would be most welcome there as well!
Also if you haven'tbrowsed through the thread on landscapes books (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124651)stickied here in our forum, it's worth a peek.

Johannes, any chance you can tape a copy of Saturday's lesson to post here for those who couldn't attend? I'm assuming it would be like your sample class that is on your website. That would be most appreciated by all.

Johannes Instructor
12-01-2010, 05:08 PM
Those interested in composition might also like to visit WetCanvas' Composition and Design Forum (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=23). It's not specifically for landscapes but you can post your piece in a thread and get advice there as well as here in the Landscape Forum. (Check out this thread called Composition Checklist (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179525)- it's very good.) Johannes I'm sure your input would be most welcome there as well!
Also if you haven'tbrowsed through the thread on landscapes books (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124651)stickied here in our forum, it's worth a peek.

Johannes, any chance you can tape a copy of Saturday's lesson to post here for those who couldn't attend? I'm assuming it would be like your sample class that is on your website. That would be most appreciated by all.

Ok Colleen just because you asked for it. Here is my little contribution to composition. LOL
http://cyberartlearning.com/CompositionManualpage1.htm
Click on that link. There are 9 pages to it.

sidbledsoe
12-01-2010, 10:26 PM
Ok Colleen just because you asked for it. Here is my little contribution to composition. LOL
http://cyberartlearning.com/CompositionManualpage1.htm
Click on that link. There are 9 pages to it.
That same article is also here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/135/120/) in the Wetcanvas Article Index.
What a lot of information there in those links Wendy, thanks.

winecountry
12-01-2010, 11:13 PM
very good Johannes, I know most of this stuff, but it's better to see it illustrated this way...thanks a lot....

winecountry
12-02-2010, 01:58 AM
it was a great review, and I'm glad to know that I can always find it here so thanks for both links.

Johannes Instructor
12-02-2010, 08:12 AM
Actually the link sid posted has a larger version

susanc
12-02-2010, 11:20 AM
Johannes, thank you for the manual on composition. haven't been to the site for a long time and I hoped that the Aspevig thread was still going. I was ecstatic to find that you've shared all this with us. I've noticed that you offer great information very concisely before so I'm sure the 9 pages are packed full of information.

Thanks again for the manual. I'm off to download it. Just wanted to thank you first before I got too caught up in reading and re-reading it!

Susan

timonsloane
12-02-2010, 12:26 PM
I just ready through Johannes' composition writeup. Very good stuff. One point stood out for me that I'd like to discuss:

. Logic doesn’t apply to art. What counts is the visual impact. Sunlight on a field of grass may appear even if it is a cloudy day. Linear and atmospheric perspective can be distorted if the result is a better look. Cast shadows can be longer than they would appear at a specific time of day. Feel free to use your artist’s license.. http://cyberartlearning.com/tutorials/compmanual/Fig_10.jpg Fig. 10 Observe how the trees give the appearance that the wind is blowing from right to left. However the direction of the rain shows the opposite direction.

This point got me thinking. In addition to art I also have a scientific background and I tend to flip between right and left brain thinking when painting. I am very conscious of how objects would interact in nature. Thing like:

what is casting the shadow?
how water flows and interacts with rocks and waves
how wind and water will erode and shape objects over many years
how animals would beat a natural path through certain foliage
how trees interact and make space for each other as they grow
how reflections align with the objects casting themI wholeheartedly agree with changing nature to serve the purposes of the painting, but personally I think that alterations need to follow some laws of nature to look and feel right. The specific example you show here where the implied wind direction is different on these two objects personally would bother me. When I see discrepancies like this a painting they break me away for the pure pleasure of enjoying the painting.

I'd be interested in others' thoughts and experience. In no way do I want to tarnish your comments Johannes - I greatly appreciate your willingness to share and take time to post. I'm just on an endless quest to keep learning and observing, and maybe I could/should experiment with taking even greater liberty when 'molding' nature?

Timon

Johannes Instructor
12-02-2010, 01:39 PM
You are very analytical which is good to understand the complexity of art design. Do you remember the Beatles songs such as "Sargeant Pepper, Yellow Submarine, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, etc."? The lyrics never made sense but the songs were hits. Art works the same way. It is the visual impact that counts.

JDWooldridge
12-02-2010, 01:47 PM
Hey Timon

Sounds like you and I are in very similar boats. I'm an engineer and tend to analyze all those things you discuss. I think they are all very good things to be thinking about and should not be ignored. Most all of our rules of thumb about making atmosphere and depth are very soundly based in technical fields of study, most notably optics. Like you, my suspension of disbelief is disturbed when too much liberty (or more precisely, hamhanded liberty!) is taken with the physical reality.

More recently though, I've tried to harness that analytical aspect and put it to work more in terms of the mechanics of the painting itself. Both in the technical minutiae of the application of paint but also in the abstract mechanisms of the piece itself. How will this brushstroke or this line or this color affect the path of the viewers eye, etc. I'm trying to analyze that more than the "reality" of what I know to be there. I am, if you will, engineering the picture itself and not analyzing nature. Sometimes that works well...other times, I out-think myself and put together a total stinker.

winecountry
12-02-2010, 01:56 PM
It's funny I would not have picked this up, because I'm willing to enter the world of the painting, and accept the laws there, if I find the shapes colors and design pleasing, the other things of reality are subordinate.

Having lived in New Mexico. with hundred mile views, I can imagine this happening as several storms can be seen at one time and they may differ some depending on local conditions. Gusts may come up whirling near me that do not go the same as the storms highup and far away.

Since I find the shapes colors and design very pleasing in this one, and something I like to go into, I sort for different facts than you perhaps. Just my thoughts

JDWooldridge
12-02-2010, 02:14 PM
Looking at the picture shown, I also don't see anything I would specifically say is a violation of physical law. In actuality, many storms will have zones of in-flow where the low pressure system is more or less sucking the air in toward it and thus the painting as shown could possibly be very much be in line with physical laws.

skappy
12-02-2010, 03:34 PM
Wonderful thread thanks for all the informations I wish I could be there saturday but with the time diference it wo'nt work too bad:crying: :envy:
Robert:cat:

oddman99
12-02-2010, 05:33 PM
Timon,
I share your concern about reality in the painting, but I accept that the painting's needs always trumps reality. Find this van Gogh painting "Road with Man Walking, Carriage, Cypress, Star and Crescent Moon" at www.booksplendour.com.au/bs_vangogh.htm

The sun on the left of the cypress illuminates the moon, but the crescent is backwards! Despite this obvious discrepancy I, and so many others, would dearly love to own this painting.

Johannes Instructor
12-02-2010, 05:36 PM
Colleen you were going to send me another painting for critique.

Johannes Instructor
12-02-2010, 05:58 PM
I checked the registration form and have noticed that already many have registered for the upcoming lecture class. However the report informs me the double amount clicked on the registration form but only half followed thru with the registration. The only thing you are being asked is to fill in your full name, email address and country. If you feel uncomfortable filling this in you can type in your first name and type "void" in the second line where your last name would go. You can also type a bogus email in too. If you do the latter I won't be able to send you a typed summary of the event. Your pick.

Johannes

susanc
12-02-2010, 06:18 PM
I signed up for the webinar and my stomach flopped when I noticed (as I was sending my information, of course) that I put in "com" instead of "net" on my email. I was about to put a bookmark on the resulting page that gave me my personal link information, but that page disappeared very quickly. I hit the "back" button, hoping to retrieve my personal link information, but found just the empty submission form. Johannes, can I sign up again or can you figure out my real email from the information given here so I can get the link? Really sorry about that!
Thanks, Susan C.

Marty C
12-02-2010, 07:14 PM
I checked the registration form and have noticed that already many have registered for the upcoming lecture class. However the report informs me the double amount clicked on the registration form but only half followed thru with the registration. The only thing you are being asked is to fill in your full name, email address and country. If you feel uncomfortable filling this in you can type in your first name and type "void" in the second line where your last name would go. You can also type a bogus email in too. If you do the latter I won't be able to send you a typed summary of the event. Your pick.

Johannes

I would strongly urge all Wet Canvas members not to enter any of their details such as email addresses on a third party site. We have no idea who can harvest those details, nor to what use they will be put.
If Johannes is unable or unwilling to embed a You Tube video of his lecture here, at the least he can publish the summary of the event here for all Wet Canvas members to access and read at any time. We realise that the majority of members will be unable to attend his lecture due to time and personal commitments.
Again, supplying personal details to an unknown third party site is a dangerous practice, and Wet Canvas does not endorse this practice in any shape or form.

Do not supply your real name or your email if you register for this event.

rugman
12-02-2010, 07:25 PM
I have science background as well. But I am really excited about incorporating abstract shapes in the beginning of paintings. Had fun last night making small notans just to practice making abstract shapes, even in non landscape scenes.

Johannes:

Some questions from reading this thread:
1. The Aspevig paintings that you've shown as examples: how where they painted- studio from plein air studies, photos, combinations, all plein air?

2. How big are the originals? Does he has a particular size he like to use?

3. I noticed your painting on masonite. I like masonite as well. How do you prep your masonite? I have been doing 2-3 coats acrylic gesso, but not sure if thats archival enough. Does it need some sort of oil primer?

Thanks for willingness to share your knowledge. Looking forward to Saturday.

winecountry
12-02-2010, 07:48 PM
I have to put my email address in everytime I want something from the internet, so I have a special one I use just for that.....since I'm about to change my email I don't care, but putting in a bogus one is an option if you are worried

Johannes Instructor
12-02-2010, 10:02 PM
I signed up for the webinar and my stomach flopped when I noticed (as I was sending my information, of course) that I put in "com" instead of "net" on my email. I was about to put a bookmark on the resulting page that gave me my personal link information, but that page disappeared very quickly. I hit the "back" button, hoping to retrieve my personal link information, but found just the empty submission form. Johannes, can I sign up again or can you figure out my real email from the information given here so I can get the link? Really sorry about that!
Thanks, Susan C.
Yeah I think you would be able to sign up again. Try it

Johannes Instructor
12-02-2010, 10:11 PM
I would strongly urge all Wet Canvas members not to enter any of their details such as email addresses on a third party site. We have no idea who can harvest those details, nor to what use they will be put.
If Johannes is unable or unwilling to embed a You Tube video of his lecture here, at the least he can publish the summary of the event here for all Wet Canvas members to access and read at any time. We realise that the majority of members will be unable to attend his lecture due to time and personal commitments.
Again, supplying personal details to an unknown third party site is a dangerous practice, and Wet Canvas does not endorse this practice in any shape or form.

Do not supply your real name or your email if you register for this event.

First of all as some of you have been watching the past posts of mine in this forum. It is obvious that I know what I am talking about so I am not pretending to be interested in sharing these techniques for the sake of harvesting personal information. If that is the case then why did I mention for you to type bogus information in the blanks if you were concerned? I believe all of you know enough about painting to realize my posts are professional tips. I don't know if the moderator is referring to me as a third party but "GotoMeeting" is a world wide professional system that advertises on TV. I cannot post a youtube video of the event because it does not stream thru youtube. Please do your own research on gotomeeting. I understand Marty's concern but there was no way to deactivate the email request in the gotomeeting webinar setup for registration. The blank field comes up by default.
As a matter of fact Richard McKinley just gave an hour presentation that was endorsed by the Artist Network who is married to Wetcanvas and he used gotomeeting (webinar). They had to type their email in there was well. Very soon when the event takes place you will trust what I have to say and see this as a opportunity to show you very good techniques to improve your paintings. I hope Marty shows up next Saturday and joins us. He may feel more confident as time goes by. Maybe there is someone such as an editor from the Artist Network that will read my previous posts and will assess that what I have been typing is accurate and high in its content.

sidbledsoe
12-02-2010, 10:32 PM
Go to this page (http://www.gotomeeting.com/fec/online_meeting_support)of FAQ's for gotomeeting and learn how to easily record a meeting and then send or post it on a website. Very simple stuff.

Johannes Instructor
12-02-2010, 10:39 PM
I have science background as well. But I am really excited about incorporating abstract shapes in the beginning of paintings. Had fun last night making small notans just to practice making abstract shapes, even in non landscape scenes.

Johannes:

Some questions from reading this thread:
1. The Aspevig paintings that you've shown as examples: how where they painted- studio from plein air studies, photos, combinations, all plein air?

2. How big are the originals? Does he has a particular size he like to use?

3. I noticed your painting on masonite. I like masonite as well. How do you prep your masonite? I have been doing 2-3 coats acrylic gesso, but not sure if thats archival enough. Does it need some sort of oil primer?

Thanks for willingness to share your knowledge. Looking forward to Saturday.

Yes once you switch to the right side of the brain you will actually feel the same joy creating abstract shapes much like a musician feels when he plays his instrument. I find it interesting that you indicated you had fun creating those shapes.

Answers to your questions:

1. Usually professional artists will do a field study as well as take photos and work from both of these sources. The field studies serve the purpose of
getting the colors right, the photo to remind the artist of the details. If you want I will give some hints about plein air painting day after tomorrow. Like I indicated earlier in the forum, the larger the painting the more details it can support. A small painting runs the risk of getting busy if it has lots of details. A field study is normally done in about 2 hours. There is like a competitive pride issue amongst artists if they can complete a field study in less than 2 hours. Sometimes weather conditions do not allow one to paint outdoors and is travelling and has no option but to rely on a photo. All in all, see field studies like working out in a gym. A professional tennis player does not only play tennis to work out. He goes to the gym. The same applies to devoted artists. They exercise their visual muscles out in nature to develop a visual memory. That way when you put a color on you can feel it is not right and you will even contradict the photo colors. What Clyde does is that he uses the photo to mainly block the info in and then puts the photo away and relies on his visual memory and creativity to do the rest. Clyde says his visual memory is that good now that he can do a landscape with no reference. Most top artists' field studies are about 9 X 12 ", 11 X 14 inches. In many cases they keep their field studies. The excpetion to this is Jim Wilcox. He will go out an paint on a 12 X 16 linen panel. Then if necessary he brings it into his by the way beautiful studio which he calls the "Jimnasium" and may work on it a bit more if necessary then take it downstairs to the gallery, frame it an sell it.
2. Clyde does quite a few 24 X 30 inches paintings. Others can go as big as 50 X 72 inches. He likes big paintings. Contrary to Matt Smith who we keep insisting he should biggie size. But you will see all kinds of sizes from Clyde.
3. I like to prepare my own panels yes. I use birchwood though. Masonite warps too easily and is heavier. The price difference is minimum. This is how I prepare it. a) I use modelling paste for the first layer, then I follow thru with 2 or 3 layers of gesso. While doing this I create mini "X" movements with my brush. To tell if your surface has enough gesso do this test. Paint a letter with burnt sienna reduced with a bit of solvent. Let it sit for a few moments. Then remove the letter with your rag and the solvent. If the letter is till readable then the surface is not well gessoed yet. If you can wipe away the letter so it is not legible then you are fine. In case you will add anotehr layer of gesso make sure you wash the left over with dish wash soap and water to remove the pigment oil or the next layer of gesso won't stick. Many professionals order their plein air panels from Source Tek. Linen is the preferred surface. I find the grooves to be too mechanical. That's why I prepare my own.

Dharma_bum
12-02-2010, 10:53 PM
I just registered I think... from the original page where I gave my info I was briefly directed to another page which disappeared after just a few seconds, so I didn't get a chance to read it, and I ended up at Johannes's art page. So I don't know if the software I need was installed or not. I also don't know how to get to the class on Saturday. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Dan

Johannes Instructor
12-02-2010, 11:21 PM
Many of you have asked questions in the registration form which is good. I think we should all make provision for additional time on Saturday. Time goes by real fast and 2 hours may not be enough.

rugman
12-02-2010, 11:37 PM
Yes once you switch to the right side of the brain you will actually feel the same joy creating abstract shapes much like a musician feels when he plays his instrument. I find it interesting that you indicated you had fun creating those shapes.

Yes, I surprised myself on this one! Doing notans never interested me, I considered it a "chore". The key was to draw negetive shapes as much as possible. And breaking down the shapes into the three values, light, mids, and mid darks. Thats what broke the mental barrier, I think.

Great answers to my questions, thanks so much.

Marty C
12-03-2010, 12:00 AM
First of all as some of you have been watching the past posts of mine in this forum. It is obvious that I know what I am talking about so I am not pretending to be interested in sharing these techniques for the sake of harvesting personal information.

This may not be the intent, but the reality is that garnering this type of information is expressly forbidden under the Wet Canvas User Agreement, clause 14m:
m. Obtain or attempt to obtain any materials or information through any means not intentionally made available through this web site, including but not limited to harvesting or otherwise collecting personal or contact information of other users;

This clause exists to prevent possible exploitation of Wet Canvas members by another member or by a third party site to which members may be referred or linked, as in this case. We are not in a position to vet every third party site, hence we urge WC members to conduct as much discussion and teaching as possible within the confines of Wet Canvas. This has the double benefit of protecting members, and also making all that information available to ALL members, indefinitely.



I hope Marty shows up next Saturday and joins us.

For me to attend, the hours are 1:00am to 3:00am, hardly convenient, and therein lies one of the main problems with this exercise. The time excludes most of the members of Wet Canvas.

Go to this page of FAQ's for gotomeeting and learn how to easily record a meeting and then send or post it on a website. Very simple stuff.
This indicates there should be no reason why such a lecture cannot be recorded and made freely available to ALL Wet Canvas members, without the need for registration or supply of personal information.
From the GTO FAQs:

Depending on the size, meeting recordings can be zipped and sent by email, sent by FTP or posted on a website.

I am completely in favour of as much education and learning as possible, and I applaud and am grateful to anyone who wishes to instruct or help other Wet Canvas members. However, I am not supportive of such instruction where other Wet Canvas members are excluded for whatever reason, or where members are directed to sites of which we have no knowledge or control, and where personal information is collected. Such instruction is not inclusive and is against the spirit of sharing and support we encourage on Wet Canvas. The information so far in this thread is excellent and available to all, the off site lecture is discriminatory by nature.

Johannes Instructor
12-03-2010, 12:17 AM
This may not be the intent, but the reality is that garnering this type of information is expressly forbidden under the Wet Canvas User Agreement, clause 14m:


This clause exists to prevent possible exploitation of Wet Canvas members by another member or by a third party site to which members may be referred or linked, as in this case. We are not in a position to vet every third party site, hence we urge WC members to conduct as much discussion and teaching as possible within the confines of Wet Canvas. This has the double benefit of protecting members, and also making all that information available to ALL members, indefinitely.





For me to attend, the hours are 1:00am to 3:00am, hardly convenient, and therein lies one of the main problems with this exercise. The time excludes most of the members of Wet Canvas.


This indicates there should be no reason why such a lecture cannot be recorded and made freely available to ALL Wet Canvas members, without the need for registration or supply of personal information.
From the GTO FAQs:



I am completely in favour of as much education and learning as possible, and I applaud and am grateful to anyone who wishes to instruct or help other Wet Canvas members. However, I am not supportive of such instruction where other Wet Canvas members are excluded for whatever reason, or where members are directed to sites of which we have no knowledge or control, and where personal information is collected. Such instruction is not inclusive and is against the spirit of sharing and support we encourage on Wet Canvas. The information so far in this thread is excellent and available to all, the off site lecture is discriminatory by nature.

Once again I need to use a program called go to meeting. How can I lecture using slides and audio here on wetcanvas? I will be drawing live, highlighting areas, doing modifications etc live. We are artists and as such we are visual. We learn visually. How can text tell us what we need to see in pictures. Are you set up for this? There is so much to say. As far as I know wetcanvas is a type only forum and provides no audio format. Why would I want to discriminate? The idea is to include as many as possible. I chose an hour to my convenience since I am the presenter. Marty if you cannot make it maybe you will ask a fellow moderator to show up to supervise.

Yorky
12-03-2010, 04:29 AM
You can embed YouTube videos in wetcanvas posts using the [ANTV] tags including sound see here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=597481).

Doug

sundiver
12-03-2010, 06:11 AM
On your home page, Johannes, there is a demo from a recorded lesson, and in the tuition section there is mention of lessons being recorded, so it appears it is possible...
I keep seeing the word "generous" in this Wetcanvas thread. Members (in this WC thread) are being invited (through this WC thread) to a private group lesson off-site, one that most WC members cannot attend. It appears that at least one member has had a totally private critique (apparently coming from WC and this thread) and has been offerred another.
"Generous" IMO would be for critiques to be shared (in the forum) with the membership and for the Saturday session to be recorded and posted here for all WetCanvas to see.
I've been a member of WC for years, mainly because of the "generous" spirit of the website. Members post their art in a thread dedicated to that piece of art, ask for a critique, and get one from other members, but everyone else who happens to read the thread learns, too. Over the years we have had and still have many , many accomplished (and in many cases full-time professional) artists who give freely and generously of their time and expertise right here WetCanvas. I have read countless testimonials from members about how they've grown as an artist because of the generous spirit here at WetCanvas.
Posting a recording of the session, which was arranged through WC, on WC for the rest of the membership to see, would be continuing that generous spirit.

Al Skaar
12-03-2010, 01:48 PM
Lots of artists give generously of their time and expertise on Wet Canvas, to help other artists who have questions or who ask for help. Having a place to share your work, get some good critiques and some positive strokes too, is a great concept. It has been a wonderful resource for many people. The key is that this exchange is freely given and, for the most part, graciously received. But this is the first time I have observed a member being publicly criticized for not doing enough and being pressured by the forum management to give more. What's up with that? It makes me ponder.

- Al

JTMB
12-03-2010, 04:06 PM
Now that I'm retired, I try to stay away from politics or controversy in any form. But, being a relative newcomer to WetCanvas (and very active on the site) and finding it a fantastic resource, I'll add my two cents here. I also see enough value in the site that I contribute financially to it as well.

I stumbled on this thread somewhat randomly, checked it out and immediately put it on my favorites list, and was really pleased to find out about the webinair. I've signed up, and don't see any issues with doing so - in various businesses I've been in, we used gotomeeting.com and it is a legitimate site and doesn't require any info except name and e-mail, which is easily available many other ways.

While there probably is some reasonable upper limit to the number of people who can sign up to the webinair, it seems to me there was nothing but generosity involved here in offering it to people who were willing to take the few simple steps and a couple hours of their time. My hat's off to Johannes, whose work I hadn't seen before, but now that I have I'm really impressed.

On the conceptual level, I understand WetCanvas's desire to provide the info as broadly as possible to members, but would look at this as being a nice-to-have in a situation like this, not a requirement for the person (volunteer!) making the offer to do. My argument for that view would be that the site is so amazingly diverse, so huge, and has so many experts who may not be known to the broader group of users that it is almost impractical to expect that something of this sort would be able to be accessed by everyone on the site who might potentially be interested. Despite closing in on 3,000 posts and having spent many, many hours on the site, I'm still finding wonderful nuggets of info (and people providing them) that I had to put in a little extra effort or time or just stumble across to find. The offer here fits what I perceive as the WetCanvas model pretty well. If I felt the offer was somehow limited to an 'in group' on the site, excluding broader membership, or overtly promoting some separate business, then a line would be crossed - but I don't personally feel that is the case here.

I definitely am a huge fan of the site, and if I'm not aware of some policy that is at work here that is a problem, then my apologies. Just wanted to put in an opinion for consideration.

Thanks for reading this probably-too-wordy post! :)

sundiver
12-03-2010, 05:04 PM
It looks as though everything is going to work out very well.
There are some grey areas with the owner's User Agreement and it is always the (unpaid and time-consuming) task of moderators and admins to make sure all are in compliance. That can make the moderators and admin unpopular sometimes. Solicitations to go off-site have to be investigated and possibilities of staying on-site must be considered. In this case things are looking good! I wish I could say there haven't been previous cases which were found to be not so good, which is why we always have to check.
So enjoy your session tomorrow- we are eager to hear all about it!

Rich Williams
12-03-2010, 06:37 PM
Yes we should keep on task and not let our baggage from the past color our future.

winecountry
12-04-2010, 01:41 AM
a few more little nuggets given by Johannes from statements of Clyde about painting

• Don't ask how to do it, ask why you are painting that and the why will tell you how

• Make the focal points subtle, not like a flag man waving at you on the road

• Focal points are not a place to stop, but a place to keep revisiting,
( Johannes said like a visit to a friendly neighbor...a nice image I think)

And just from my time with him the following. He know so much in so many ways, his genius is to give you a great visual image, like the flagman thing above, that represents the whole concept and you don't forget since it's visual not mental......


I find him at his best and most passionate when you ask a good question and let him run with the answer and illustrations of his points. Otherwise he can wander from one point to another, the question gives him focus and you really get concise and pointed facts. Working this way with him I don't have to talk much, he keeps me engaged with little checkins and more questions, so he's not just lecturing, it's more conversational and openended. So get your questions out, no matter where he starts he comes into the basics each time, the meat of the matter....

Boy it's great to be back on topic here:lol:

I'll take notes tomorrow, and I find this helps as he gives out so much, you need a little "notan" of the points that interest you, or sometimes just a little sketch, I find as I go back I remember it well, and I didn't write a lot , just short sentences.

sundiver
12-04-2010, 06:43 AM
• Make the focal points subtle, not like a flag man waving at you on the road

• Focal points are not a place to stop, but a place to keep revisiting,
( Johannes said like a visit to a friendly neighbor...a nice image I think)




I like that.
Thanks:)

Johannes Instructor
12-04-2010, 11:16 AM
The webinar for today's event is now open so you can join. You may want to chat amongst yourselves meanwhile and test everything.
To join click on this link:
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/960971438

winecountry
12-04-2010, 11:56 AM
Webinar is open he is showing us a lot of Clydes work and explaining some of his techniques to us, feel free to join he has not started the main lecture yet,

winecountry
12-04-2010, 01:39 PM
this is the real deal, he just finished a whole section on how to best use a photo, or to paint on site, by choosing one speaker to take the predominate role...more later on this. Same place could yield a mt painting a sky painting a tree painting or a water....by choosing ONE feature to be the star

Michaelmcg
12-04-2010, 01:40 PM
I'm watching the "webinar" on a dodgy broadband link and working great. Good stuff rom Johannes.

Michael

timonsloane
12-04-2010, 03:20 PM
Watching it too. Very good stuff. Johannes is quick with photoshop and is doing live markups as a way of illustrating what he's saying. Nice format for presentation.

Paula Ford
12-04-2010, 03:22 PM
So excellent!! Thank you so much!!

timonsloane
12-04-2010, 03:22 PM
Sorry I couldn't comment or say thank you during the web session, but the chat feature wasn't visible for me. Not sure why.

winecountry
12-04-2010, 03:25 PM
I just put up a new thread to keep all of the Webinar notes from all of us and his responses on topic on one thread the link is Sharing Notes/Chat from Sat Webinar (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801791)

So Admin can let us have it on one topic, that way, since he's going to do another one later and we can put it here or on a new one if this gets too big

Paula Ford
12-04-2010, 03:32 PM
Sorry I couldn't comment or say thank you during the web session, but the chat feature wasn't visible for me. Not sure why.

I couldn't see it either.

susanc
12-04-2010, 03:46 PM
I wanted to thank Johannes for taking the time to share all his information on the webinar. I've read a lot of art books before, but he brought up a lot that I didn't know even from all those previous readings through the years. Painting to 6:00 on trees, for example.

It also helped me to see that Colleen had apparently done this webinar thing before and survived it just fine...I'm really glad I dropped by for it today. He hopes to another one this month if you missed out today...Anyway, let's keep this thread going. It's been really great to learn all this.
Susan C.

JTMB
12-04-2010, 04:01 PM
When I found out about this webinair, I begged off another commitment that my wife could fill in on for me in order to be on the webinair. Great decision! Johannes is brimming with great info and the format with live demos using Photoshop coupled with his running commentary worked excellently. Thank you, Johannes!!

winecountry
12-04-2010, 04:21 PM
If you all would rather we could continue on this one, I had concerns admin would not let us as a single topic, but we could always try, I personally think it would be nice to have a new one clean one of all the controversy that went on here. just my opinion


Unable to say how much gratefullness I feel for this amazing generous man to give all this to us I think the only way to repay it is to make much better paintings than I have ever done
Thanks Johannes.:heart: :thumbsup: :grouphug:

timonsloane
12-04-2010, 04:23 PM
Great webinar. Terrific job. That was very generous of you.

At one point you mentioned that you hoped you weren't being to technical or presenting too much info. I just want you to know my feeling is the more the better.

I'm personally not looking for instruction how to mix paints or apply paint with a brush, but instead for theory analyzing paintings. There's lots of the basic how-to out there, but much less of the detailed analysis of painting structure. I really appreciate that you were focusing on detailed deconstruction of paintings. Great job.

Michaelmcg
12-04-2010, 04:27 PM
I didn't notice the chat option for about 15-20 minutes, so I guess that is why there weren't more questions (there was a small icon on the top right-hand of the screen which had to be clicked to open the chat window). Many thanks to Johannes for a very informative lecture - looking forward to the next one.

Michael

Dharma_bum
12-04-2010, 04:35 PM
I'd like to add my thanks to Johannes for generously sharing his time with us in this most instructive webinar. I agree that a new thread is in order.

Dan

susanc
12-04-2010, 04:44 PM
Today after the webinar, this description finally made sense to me--On his site he [Clyde Aspevig] says, "I have not rendered a single blade of grass. The "idea" of grass is made up of glazing pure color over white with intermediate opaque colors over that, all highlighted with heavy impasto."

If I understand correctly, in this instance he glazed thinned color over a white canvas (possibly thinned with liquin), painted over that with different brushstrokes using either slightly thicker paint or paint mixed with white or maybe of some other opaque pigment composition, and at the end, used a loaded brush with a light-valued thick paint for texture...?

I'm not married to this thread--Sorry if I seemed to be making demands about it! I'm happy to just go with the flow, following wherever the discussion leads. I think my current goal is to paint more luminous landscapes--and fewer ugly trees. Any thread that will get me there is fine with me.

Susan

rugman
12-04-2010, 04:45 PM
Thanks Johannes so much for your time. You are excellent at explaining techniques and concepts. I do hope this (or a new thread) continues. You HAVE to tell us Aspevigs sky technique!

I didn't notice the chat option for about 15-20 minutes, so I guess that is why there weren't more questions (there was a small icon on the top right-hand of the screen which had to be clicked to open the chat window).

I had no idea how to do that.....:rolleyes: Guess we'll know for the next time!

edtree
12-04-2010, 05:31 PM
First, I want to thank Johannes for the awesome lecture and demonstration this afternoon. I was glued to my computer screen for the entire time! If any of you have reservations about attending a future session with Johannes, I’d like to put your mind at ease. It is the most valuable painting instruction I’ve ever had. Johannes’s enthusiasm for sharing his knowledge is fueled by our interest. We will all benefit from everyone’s participation in this thread and in future webinar sessions so jump on in!

One of the things I’m most anxious to put into practice is the lesson on values. This is the first time I didn’t hear “push the darks” or “add drama by using strong lights against strong darks.”

The concept of using three basic value structures within each landscape painting now makes so much sense. During the webinar, Johannes used many, many examples of paintings by other artists, sometimes sketched the information and sometimes both together.

Some notes on the three value structures:


The three structures defined: Mid light, mid, and mid dark.
The values should not repeat from one value structure to another.
Mid dark value areas should be visually connected
On a value scale of 1 to10, the values 9 and 10 should be thrown out.
Number 1 value should be saved for snow or waterfalls.
The above is not all inclusive. I’ve got 8 pages of notes and didn’t get everything down!

I’m attaching a hideous painting that has been sitting on my easel staring at me for a couple of months because I haven’t known where to go with it. I’m now inspired to go forward using what I’ve learned about the value structures, melodic lines, tips for making great water reflections, the no-fly zones, etc… but first asking myself the big question: “What is this painting about?” I am open for suggestions as well.

Though I am just a hobby artist, I’m dedicated to improvement and looking forward to the discussion here, and attending future webinar sessions.

Thanks again, Johannes, for the excellent instruction and to my classmates for the great questions!

Elizabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2010/94944-DSCN00560002.JPG

(After looking at all the GREAT paintings today, I'm sort of embarrased to post this.) :o

winecountry
12-04-2010, 05:40 PM
wonderful notes here, and I think the key word is dedicated not hobby or not, I didn't have the luxury of full time painting until recently but I've always been dedicated, it was a passion not a pastime, so that is the key I think you could copy and paste this to the new thread if you wanted here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801791)


there is some commenting on this thread that is not really appropriate to what we are now as a group creating, the new thread will be clear of all that for anyone new who comes along, leave the old baggage here...IMO

hemisavoy
12-04-2010, 07:11 PM
A very worthwhile lecture and demonstration today by Johannes...lots of information shared...thank you!

sundiver
12-04-2010, 10:57 PM
If you all would rather we could continue on this one, I had concerns admin would not let us as a single topic, but we could always try, I personally think it would be nice to have a new one clean one of all the controversy that went on here. just my opinion
:

No rules being broken either way, but a new thread is a good idea, like you said.
I'll copy some of the more specific posts from here to there, too

winecountry
12-04-2010, 11:08 PM
thanks Wendy

Paula Ford
12-05-2010, 12:44 AM
Oh my goodness Elizabeth!!! Don't ever be embarassed to show this painting!! It is absolutely GORGEOUS!!! Beautiful work!!

Michaelmcg
12-05-2010, 03:35 AM
First, I want to thank Johannes for the awesome lecture and demonstration this afternoon. I was glued to my computer screen for the entire time! If any of you have reservations about attending a future session with Johannes, I’d like to put your mind at ease. It is the most valuable painting instruction I’ve ever had. Johannes’s enthusiasm for sharing his knowledge is fueled by our interest. We will all benefit from everyone’s participation in this thread and in future webinar sessions so jump on in!

One of the things I’m most anxious to put into practice is the lesson on values. This is the first time I didn’t hear “push the darks” or “add drama by using strong lights against strong darks.”

The concept of using three basic value structures within each landscape painting now makes so much sense. During the webinar, Johannes used many, many examples of paintings by other artists, sometimes sketched the information and sometimes both together.

Some notes on the three value structures:

The three structures defined: Mid light, mid, and mid dark.
The values should not repeat from one value structure to another.
Mid dark value areas should be visually connected
On a value scale of 1 to10, the values 9 and 10 should be thrown out.
Number 1 value should be saved for snow or waterfalls.The above is not all inclusive. I’ve got 8 pages of notes and didn’t get everything down!

I’m attaching a hideous painting that has been sitting on my easel staring at me for a couple of months because I haven’t known where to go with it. I’m now inspired to go forward using what I’ve learned about the value structures, melodic lines, tips for making great water reflections, the no-fly zones, etc… but first asking myself the big question: “What is this painting about?” I am open for suggestions as well.

Though I am just a hobby artist, I’m dedicated to improvement and looking forward to the discussion here, and attending future webinar sessions.

Thanks again, Johannes, for the excellent instruction and to my classmates for the great questions!

Elizabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2010/94944-DSCN00560002.JPG

(After looking at all the GREAT paintings today, I'm sort of embarrased to post this.) :o

To my eye anyway, Elizabeth, the tree shapes are good here. I think you may have put your finger on the main issue here regarding what exactly the painting is about. Remember the how Johannes showed how a painting can be about sky, mountains, trees or water in the example he used and the idea of one third/two thirds. If the reflections were what caught your eye here, then perhaps less sky. Also I think the reflections are too similar to the trees in terms of value and colour intensity. They are also too defined - need to blur them more, as water on a relatively large expanse of water is never entirely still. If I understood Johannes correctly, then perhaps you have overdone the mid-light value mass here - need to make the mid value mass dominant.

Just my tuppence worth, but if Johannes has the time to come in on this, that would be great, because everyone learns from his critiques.

Michael

edtree
12-05-2010, 05:32 AM
:wave: Thanks Colleen, Paula and Michael! I'm putting a detailed response in the other thread.

Elizabeth

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 09:46 AM
To my eye anyway, Elizabeth, the tree shapes are good here. I think you may have put your finger on the main issue here regarding what exactly the painting is about. Remember the how Johannes showed how a painting can be about sky, mountains, trees or water in the example he used and the idea of one third/two thirds. If the reflections were what caught your eye here, then perhaps less sky. Also I think the reflections are too similar to the trees in terms of value and colour intensity. They are also too defined - need to blur them more, as water on a relatively large expanse of water is never entirely still. If I understood Johannes correctly, then perhaps you have overdone the mid-light value mass here - need to make the mid value mass dominant.

Just my tuppence worth, but if Johannes has the time to come in on this, that would be great, because everyone learns from his critiques.

Michael

A painting does not have to fulfill all the requirements to be a successful painting. I actually do like this piece. As pleasing as it may be will can still take it up one notch. Michael is correct. When doing water reflections that look "glossy" keep in mind the following principles.

* Whatever is dark on dry land becomes lighter in the water.
* Whatever is light on dry land becomes darker in the water. In other words the values become closer.
* Reduce color saturation that appears on dry land in the water.
*Eliminate all hard edges in the water.
* In most cases if you darken the water compared to the sky the painting will read more three dimensional by avoiding the "value stacking" like poker chips effect.
The technical reason for this is that the water molecules absorb more light than air because of the heavier mass. Therefore the light photons don't bounce off as much.
I also agree that the land and water seem to divide the painting in half or close enough to the half point, probably a 55 -45 ratio.
Look at the version I edited. See if you like it more.

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 09:55 AM
I want to thank you all for your kind comments about the session yesterday. I realize I tried to fit a lot in but you will be getting the recording so you can watch it again and slow it down
If you want a follow up session next Saturday please indicate so. If we get enough people like last Saturday it will be a go. Meanwhile feel free to post any questions. The idea is to keep this thread flowing

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 09:57 AM
A very worthwhile lecture and demonstration today by Johannes...lots of information shared...thank you!

Larry I find your art work to be quite pleasing. You simplify well and you create very nice backgrounds. Those soft edges are well handled.

Paula Ford
12-05-2010, 09:59 AM
A follow up session next Saturday would be so wonderful!! Thank you so much for all the information you shared yesterday. It was fantastic! I got there really late and am looking forward to the link with the recording.

There is another thread started to continue the discussion...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801791

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 10:43 AM
This is a notice to all. I have three more weeks of free webinar usage. After that I won't be able to use it because it would require a payment. I propose I work with you by opening a session every day from 5 pm EST to 6 PM EST. Anyone who wants to come is invited. You may want the other members who have not seen this thread in on it. Tonight I will give techniques and secrets that Clyde uses for his trees. I will post the sesssion link in this thread just before the session starts.

edtree
12-05-2010, 12:05 PM
:wave: Thank you for your critique, Johannes and again to Michael too. YES! I do like your version better. I believe I've had some success with all points except for raising the color saturation. (oops, and I see a couple hard edges I need to fix in the water!) I’ve posted an update below.

By the way, I’m working in acrylics on paper. It is not very cooperative with these edits, especially lightening. I may not be able to achieve all I want to in this one, but will for sure know much better for the next painting. One GOOD thing though about this being on paper is that I can physically crop it, and I probably will. The area in the right corner has no redeaming qualities.

Your idea to have open sessions each evening is wonderful! I will be there as often as possible...definitely tonight. Maybe I'll wait to work further on my trees until afterwards. :)

And now for a question: You talked at length and showed us many examples for determining values for our three masses yesterday. I would like to know to what value would a figure or animal be in a painting? For instance, a cow in the foreground?

Elizabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Dec-2010/94944-DSCN03030001.JPG

Michaelmcg
12-05-2010, 02:53 PM
This is a notice to all. I have three more weeks of free webinar usage. After that I won't be able to use it because it would require a payment. I propose I work with you by opening a session every day from 5 pm EST to 6 PM EST. Anyone who wants to come is invited. You may want the other members who have not seen this thread in on it. Tonight I will give techniques and secrets that Clyde uses for his trees. I will post the sesssion link in this thread just before the session starts.

I'll be there if I can stay awake (close to bedtime here!).

Michael

Johannes Instructor
12-05-2010, 04:47 PM
As promised I am opening the Webinar at 5 pm EST. Here is the link to get in. If you are ask to register just type your first name and initial your last name. If you want to keep your email private just type in a bogus email address. Hope some of you can make it:

1. Please join my Webinar.

https://www3.gotowebinar.com/join/385314374



2. You will be connected to audio using your computer's speakers

dollardays
12-06-2010, 08:14 AM
I will be there tonight! Thanks, Joannes!

susanc
12-06-2010, 09:23 AM
Trees. How perfect. I have to pick up my son from school at that very time but I'll join in as soon we get back. Thanks so much!

Susan

Esmeralinda
12-06-2010, 09:37 AM
Just came back from a 3 day trip and missed it all :crying:
I will be there tonight :crossfingers:

skappy
12-06-2010, 09:42 AM
Could'nt do it on saturday gonna do my best tonight 11 pm here I guess

do i need a special software? I'm using use a Mac

Robert:wave::cat:

SonyaJ
12-06-2010, 09:58 AM
do i need a special software? I'm using use a Mac

Robert:wave::cat:

Nope- works great on a Mac. I attended yesterday afternoon's session. You get a prompt to install the software, which you know Mac's do flawlessly :). Took a few seconds and that was it.

I've never done/attended a webinar of any type before, but this was really neat. Definitely worth the time - Johannes passed on lots of painting technique and composition pearls, as well as addressing bigger issues that frequently get overlooked when painting trees, which is what his focus was in yesterday's meeting.

Also, even though the examples he uses are of contemporary realism, the concepts are applicable to pretty much any painting style.

I'll try to attend today's session if I'm not outdoors :thumbsup:.

skappy
12-06-2010, 10:56 AM
Thanks Sonia in otherwords I just have to click on the link when it appears in this forum and that is it? I have never done that conferences before:o

Hope it ll work
Robert

susanc
12-06-2010, 03:30 PM
Oh no! It looks like I missed the trees class so I appreciate seeing everyone's homework on it. I'll still be there this afternoon, though, even despite the different subject matter. ;) If I weren't such an indulgent mother, I'd be able to catch all the class--it's only an 7 mile walk home for him...

Looking forward to whatever I can catch of it.
Susan

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 04:40 PM
The webinar access code is this one for tonight Monday December 6. The subject will be "All you need to know about evergreen trees".

Click on this link to access the room
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/186041342

Hope you can make it!

Johannes Instructor
12-06-2010, 04:47 PM
Sorry the registration says Tuesday just ignore that but the access link is still correct
The webinar access code is this one for tonight Monday December 6. The subject will be "All you need to know about evergreen trees".

Click on this link to access the room
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/186041342

Hope you can make it!

appydax
12-08-2010, 05:12 AM
Thank you for doing these webinars Johannes :thumbsup:
Just found out and my first one was last night.
I got to the end of Charlies pastel but had to go.
I'm learning so much and next time I will be taking notes :D
They start around 10pm UK time (my bedtime) and although I
am tired my brain is on overdrive. :clap:

Sharron

Judibelle
12-08-2010, 09:15 AM
I was able to watch last night for the first time, also. Learned a lot. Hope to catch tonight's as well. (the timeing is a bit awkward, as it is suppertime here...)
thank you so much for offering these amazing learning tools...
Judi

fishpimp
12-08-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm getting my tail kicked at the hospital and jealous of all the knowledge I'm missing out on... Will you put this whole thing on video or is there a way for a computer illiterate such as myself to save these classes? I would pay for them if that's what it takes.

winecountry
12-08-2010, 02:08 PM
maybe you could find a friend to loan you a laptop for a few days, do hospitals have wireless...also if you read the other thread JOhannes Art Instruction, Robert posts his notebook and he is doing a steallar job of note taking with illustrations hope you get well soon

Johannes Instructor
12-08-2010, 05:04 PM
1. Please join my Webinar.
https://www3.gotowebinar.com/register/186041342

2. You will be connected to audio using your computer's microphone and speakers (VoIP). A headset is recommended.

Webinar ID: 186-041-342

GoToWebinar®
Web Events and Online Meetings Made Easy™

Donald_Smith
12-08-2010, 05:20 PM
I've tried 3 times to connect to the webinar. I can't get connected. I'm guessing it's because I'm using satellite, I wish DSL was available in my area, but it's not.

Guess I'll have to enjoy Robert's posts "with 8x10 color glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back, explaining what each one is to be used for." Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie

Thanks Robert and Johannes! I hope I got those names spelled right! :)
Donald

KristinaB
12-08-2010, 08:31 PM
I would love to get in on this, but alas, I am total deaf and would never understand what was going on. I have to rely on "The Written Word" or captions. Bummer! :crying:

fishpimp
12-08-2010, 11:12 PM
maybe you could find a friend to loan you a laptop for a few days, do hospitals have wireless...also if you read the other thread JOhannes Art Instruction, Robert posts his notebook and he is doing a steallar job of note taking with illustrations hope you get well soon

Thanks, but What I meant was I am busy working in the hospital (ICU RN). the notes are excellent it's just that learn better with stuff in front of me. Hopefully soon...

winecountry
12-09-2010, 12:52 AM
Oh my, no one has to work harder than a nurse....hope you get some days off, read Roberts notes, Johannes goes over the same principles each time, just different examples... and tho the little hints are just great the real meat is the three or 4 things he hits on, melodic line, massing values and keeping them in the right places, so you will get a lot of it down with only a session or two.

Don maybe a library will work

LarrySeiler
12-10-2010, 12:21 PM
When converted to greyscale, it is clear that it is nearly all mid-value range, and even the darkest and lightest notes are only a step or so above or below the mid-range values. The huge visual impact is down to accurate observation of colour shifts between and within the shadow/sunlit areas.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2010/115446-intersection_new11b.jpg


Michael

nothing to disagree with how nice the color variation is...but, Michael as few and as slightly varied as those values above and below midrange are...how important and lovely. If those darker value accents not been here, I doubt the painting would have the same power to suggest depth illusion and space.

Those few accents of darks and lights above and below midrange I think make even this grayscale version most delightful. I like this grayscale conversion...even as is, and would make space on my wall for it...

luvs2paint1
12-10-2010, 10:12 PM
I can't believe I've missed a whole weeks worth of classes : ( Is there going to be a class tomorrow, Sat. Dec. 11?

brookstream
12-10-2010, 10:44 PM
I can't believe I've missed a whole weeks worth of classes : ( Is there going to be a class tomorrow, Sat. Dec. 11?

If you follow the link it gives dates and times...Looks like there is one tomorrow.

winecountry
12-10-2010, 10:51 PM
yes he's booked everyday until Dec 22, same link each day....


Click on this link to access the room
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/186041342

luvs2paint1
12-11-2010, 08:56 AM
Thank you so much brookstream and winecountry. Looks like there's a class tonight at 5 est, which would be 4 central standard time. I do NOT want to miss any more classes. I haven't really been to wetcanvas in the past, but I will definately be keeping my eyes on these two wetcanvas links.

bobeva melaine
02-13-2011, 07:17 PM
would love to have you do the whiteboard class you suggested on Carl Aspevig. Love the class you are teaching, it will make me a better painter, I hope, and a better photographer!

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 07:24 PM
would love to have you do the whiteboard class you suggested on Carl Aspevig. Love the class you are teaching, it will make me a better painter, I hope, and a better photographer!

You mean Clyde Aspevig.

tukai
03-06-2011, 10:54 AM
I can understand the value concept better in black and white, but to judge my own painting in color it is difficult.
I am trying to rectify my non melodic lines and learn abstract shapes, I need lot of practice.
Thank you for your fabulous lessons, you are a remarkable teacher .

Johannes Instructor
03-06-2011, 11:40 AM
I can understand the value concept better in black and white, but to judge my own painting in color it is difficult.
I am trying to rectify my non melodic lines and learn abstract shapes, I need lot of practice.
Thank you for your fabulous lessons, you are a remarkable teacher .
Tukai we all have that problem. That's why we only think in 3 gray values. We can't do more.

spudsmom
03-06-2011, 12:59 PM
I'm interested so please count me in.

bluemoonstar
03-07-2011, 06:00 PM
I've just found the webinar classes last weekend - and so happy to find this thread, too. Great examples, I love seeing how Johannes can tweak what looks to me like a great painting, and make it even more interesting. Great demonstrations of the methods he's teaching. thank you!