glazing. turps alone ok?..or need oil too?

[ericbraks]

im getting some work close to the stages for finishing. [tho i admit im looking ahead by a couple of weeks!]. in doing finishing glazes, does there need to be oil content at all, or is the effect the same if its done purely with turps as the 'medium'?
ie...im hoping to get a really 'professional' surface finish to my figure work,
put another way..is it the oilyness of glazing that gives the depth/transparency effect? or will varnish end up producing that effect anyway?
...a pic for your interest [?].
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Dec-2002/5wa.jpg

[Titanium]

Eric,

here is one way to glaze.

Undercoat - white plus colour.
Keeping the tone very high in value,
say a 3 or 4 [ where 10 is black ].

Over coat - colour plus a very little
stand oil [ no solvent],apply thinly
using brush pressure.

This technique makes use of the
property of dispersing even the most
opaque pigments in a little more oil.
Allows more light to get through.

Here are a few Van Dyke examples to
explain visually a very sound glazing
technique that has lasted well through
the ages.

Read the image - base up.
Titanium

[Philippe]

For glazing in finishing state of a painting, I advice you to add oil to your painting-medium, it depends how thick your groundlayers are. How thicker the grounding, the more oil.
You can also glaze on dry surface with transparent color ,with pure color, no thinners. You just need to brush your paint wide open .

[Titanium]

The previous paint chip came from the
green curtain in this painting.

The Abbe' Scaglia adoring the Virgin and
Child - Van Dyck.

Titanium

[Titanium]

And another example -

[Titanium]

That paint chip came from this painting,

Charity by Van Dyck. Image added.

It takes a little while for the eye to read
these magnified chips.

Also used in some of Rubens' and Van Dyck's
are TRACES of pine resin - think Strasbourg
Turpentine or Canada Balsam [ not Venice
Turpentine ].

As Philippe,also stated - Transparent pigments.
I can offer no advice on Organic Pigments,but
they are very transparent on canvas.
Good Luck.
Titanium

* You can read all of this clearly in -
Volume 20
National Gallery Technical Bulletin.
[ all on Van Dyck and Rubens ]

As usual paint chip is read base up.
Chalk ground,then underpaint,red
and yellow lakes at the top.

[ericbraks]

thank you guys. wow, titanium...ill have to be a far better painter to be able to let myself put on so little pigment. ..haha..im trying for all im worth to really load up the brushes! thanks though for that info, its very interesting.
phillippe yes, thats also something i should not forget...i suppose the easiest glaze of all!
have a great sunday -e.

[impetuous]

Great thread! lots of useful info here.
From the very limited experience I've had with oils, I will say that turps alone leaves a dull and lifeless finish ...almost floury in appearance.

[Linda Ciallelo]

If you paint with a thin film of paint that has been highly diluted with turps, not only will the paint film look dull, but even after it has dried for a long time, you will be able to take a paper towel with turpentine on it and wipe the color right off. Your glazes won't be permanent. It's a dangerous thing to do. The safest way to glaze is with a mixture of varnish, oil, and turps. There are all kinds of recipes using all kinds of varnishes, oils, and dilutents, but they all contain a little of each in various proportions. The oils make the film flexible(so it won't crack), the varnish makes the film hard, and the dilutent, well, dilutes.:)
The recipes have an equal amount of oil to varnish OR more oil than varnish, but never more varnish than oil.
A list of varnishes might include:
Venetian turpentine(resin of the Larch tree)
Canada Balsam
Mastic varnish
Copal varnish
Damar varnish
A list of oils might include:
Black oil(linseed + lead)
walnut oil
stand oil
Linseed oil
poppy oil
A list of dilutents might include:
turpentine
oil of spike
mineral spirits
turpenoid
I think this is right, correct me if I'm wrong, all you out there who know these things.

[ericbraks]

thank you all for your information...im a real beginner on the oils scene, so i think then, ill stick to glazes in just oil and perhaps a bit of RAPID medium.
which of the oils would be best...obviously id be after one that doesnt yellow too much and dries fast-ish. ive heard the name 'stand oil' around these threads, would that be the one?
regards -e.

[Titanium]

Eric,

I am a great believer in keeping it simple soldier [KISS].
So I would introduce the idea of impasto or texture in
the Light and enamel smoothness in the Darks.

Any high quality paint,straight from the tube will produce
impasto/texture if applied thickly.The stand oil is used
to introduce the enamel quality.It is very strong and I
normally add 2/3 walnut oil to 1/3 stand oil to produce
a medium.
Solvent here is not needed as the walnut oil thins the
stand oil.Use sparingly when glazing and with a stiff bristle.
[ I use eterna - cheap chinese brushes ]

*******
Try to understand that texture,or enamel finishes are
only for the last coat.This is your show of force.
********

The underpainting is always smooth ,thin and textureless
If you wish to create a transparent dark at this stage,use
some of Grumbacher's transparentizer gel.It's a mix of
drying oil and alumina hydrate.It will make any pigment
transparent.No medium is used in the undercoat.

I strongly recommend Harold Speed's two books for reading.

Most people will confuse themselves at this stage as Oil
Painting is best learned from Opaque painting to other.
Usually and easily taught through doing Still Life/s and
the Posed Model.
Best of luck.
Titanium

*Try to think this out. If working in Layers.
Texture or Impasto is applied on top of the undercoat as
one shot,it must reflect confidence and is planned for in
your Cartoon or Oil sketches.

Do not mix up Alla Prima painting [ Zorn or Fechin ] with
Layer painting [ Rubens or Van Dyck ].Two different ways
of thinking.

[ericbraks]

thanks Titanium...so much info..i will find out about the books.
i want to do processed layered painting for my 'important' pieces for the sublime effects that can be gained. totally more timeless to my eye/ perception. i also intend to KISS. i need to work deftly, as is my natural way, and yet be able to develop the pieces toward that refined result. yes rubens has some fine examples..i tried to do a similar one to his 'leda and the swan' [style and colour wise] but somehow i went off track, and havent yet returned to it... though i know that would be a good exercise.
perhaps i can use one of my recent oil sketches to experiment with.
ps..yes im slowly coming to grips with the prep stage being sometimes quite separate from the final surface layer.
i get the results as youve seen from my posts..they are thin drawings, transparent darks with a little opaque white. but it seems there must be a point in which a painting kind of 'flips' around to being mostly opaque...thus leading to the stage of final touches. does that 'flip' happen all at once by just being bold with a whole new layer of paint? hmm...this will all seem so easy when i know how!..im sure ill stumble into a 'finished-looking' painting sometime soon, ill look at it for days!
thanks and regards -eric.

[Titanium]

Eric,

here in two stages is the difference between
what you doing and what I am doing.

Also why I can use white plus Mars yellow light,
Mars red cold and Mars Black [ goes blue with
white] as my undercoat.

This is a painting done in sun-light 8 to 10 a.m
keyed to nature.

Even if I were doing a painting in a cave the
process would remain the same.

The first stage is - Light and Shadow.
Note the Cartoon,that I am working off of.

Paint is from the tube, mars yellow light plus
white and a little solvent [ mineral spirits ]. Held
in a little New Zealand Fern Leaf 454 gm plastic
butter container with a cover.
Hope this helps.
Titanium.

[Titanium]

That should have been - if I were doing a painting
of a cave - apologies.

Stage 2 ,

applying flat colour mixed with white.
Using brush pressure to keep the paint
thin but opaque.In sunlight down here
there is much reflected light whiting out
shadows,so there was no need for any
attempt at transparent shadows.

Paint from tube,no solvent,no medium
just brush pressure [ remember I also
handmull ,so the paint is prepared a
little more fluid,like Rembrandt paints but
with much more pigment - no filler].b

The thin coats are opaque.

Over coat -
On top of these whited out coats [always
lighter than reality ] I applied colour,often
with no white and a little medium of walnut
oil and stand oil in the shadows or anywhere
else I believed to need it.

So for example the sky,which was Mars Black
and White,I applied Blue Ochre thinned with
medium.This allowed the effects built into the
undercoat to show through.
Also the grey blue of the mars black helped the
Blue Ochre to resonate.
Clouds were added with very little white and blue
ochre.

This is knowledge I learned from the paint chips
and applied to what I am doing.
Titanium

[Linda Ciallelo]

My painting method is a bit different from Titanium's. I never paint "impasto". My plan is more wet into wet at the beginning, with earth colors, and then some glazing at the end. I don't do grisailles.
I use Trekell bristle brushes with Loriva(unrefined) walnut oil(found in the cooking aisle section of your grocers) to which I have added 20% "Siccative de Courtrai"(lead dissolved in white spirit). If you add 20% of that mixture to your paint, the siccative de Courtrai would be 4% of your paint .
I also spray a layer of damar and turps between each layer of paint. I grid and do my drawing with charcoal then spray lightly with the damar+ turps, then paint with walnut oil, then spray with damar, then another paint layer. It is working very nicely. It is a good way to add the varnish to your painting, and sets up a nice surface to paint on and keeps it shiney.
The siccative de Courtrai helps the paint dry fast(two days ). Bouguereau used it. You can find it at New York central art supply. I'm using Lefranc & Bourgeios.
I have tried all those other combinations and have arrived at the Loriva walnut oil as being the one I like best. It dries faster than the refined walnut oil because it is unrefined with no preservatives.

[Philippe]

Linda using siccative is very bad fot the paint, it dries faster and due to that it is less stable. A restorer of paintings told me not to use it.

[river]

Siccative de Courtrai, the reason it is so potentially dangerous is because, unlike Cobalt drier and damar, they continue to dry even after the paint film hardens. The effects of damar and Cobalt progressively diminish as the paint is heading towards a dry state.

I dunno, if you use it only use it sparingly, or as Philippe said, not at all.

I've never used a siccative, but then again I've only been oil painting for about three months.

[Leopoldo1]

If one feels the need to use a drier because your painting style dictates so, then my suggestion is Doak's Liquid Lead. The only person I know that carries it. Lead can always be your friend. It is perfectly clear and of course dries inside out! It is lead corroded with acid, then washed to remove any residue of acids and finally diluted with spirits. Good stuff!.........L

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2002/leaddrier.jpg

PS: a test for Philippe: http://www.philippedesmedt.be/

[Linda Ciallelo]

Thanks Titanium. I know there is a lot of confusion about these things. The "Siccative de Courtrai" is like using lead white paint, or black oil, both of which have lead in them. Even Naples Yellow has lead in it. Lead is ok to use as a drier, especially if you're painting thin like me. Of course you don't want to use very much, but a little is a good thing.
I figure that if Bouguereau used it, it can't be all bad.


Leopoldo, if Doaks "liquid lead" is lead diluted with spirits then it must be the same thing as "Siccative de courtrai" which is "lead in white spirits". I didn't know Doaks carried this. I bet it's the same thing. That would be handy for me since I get all my paints from Doaks.
I am really liking the Loriva walnut oil(unrefined, no preservatives) with a little siccative de courtrai in it. I get around the lack of varnish by spraying each layer with diluted damar, very fast, and nice to paint on.

[Leopoldo1]

Which dries faster linseed oil or walnut oil? http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2002/banghead.gif.........L

[Leopoldo1]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
Leopoldo, if Doaks "liquid lead" is lead diluted with spirits then it must be the same thing as "Siccative de courtrai" which is "lead in white spirits". I didn't know Doaks carried this. I bet it's the same thing. That would be handy for me since I get all my paints from Doaks.
I am really liking the Loriva walnut oil(unrefined, no preservatives) with a little siccative de courtrai in it. I get around the lack of varnish by spraying each layer with diluted damar, very fast, and nice to paint on.

Linda, I am glad you reposted that brand of Walnut Oil. I remembered you posted that brand sometime ago, I copied it and then lost it. My painting style has so changed at this juncture, that I don't want it to dry fast. I have even been adding oil of gloves to keep it open longer. My understanding, walnut oil dries slower than linseed? Yes, no? http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2002/banghead.gifDoak uses it extensively in his pigments.........L

[Luis Guerreiro]

Originally posted by Leopoldo
Which dries faster linseed oil or walnut oil? http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2002/banghead.gif.........L

Hi Leo,

Please see below, it's the result of drying measurements on glass samples I did a few moths ago. Hope it helps:

http://www.oils-studio.co.uk/drying_oils.htm

Best regards

Luis :)

[Linda Ciallelo]

yes, Leopoldo, walnut oil does dry more slowly that linseed oil. That's why Doaks paints stay open so long, they are ground in walnut oil while most other paints are ground in linseed oil. I like the texture of the unrefined walnut oil better than linseed oil. It just seems more slippery, less tacky, dries harder, less sticky.
I was annoyed with the other combinations that I tried because they would set up into a "tack" very quickly and stay there for a long time. You couldn't paint over them or into them. The Loriva walnut oil(salad oil) stays slippery until it dries. There is no long period of tackiness.
I can get the Loriva walnut oil in my Giant(brand name) grocery store right next to the olive oil and the saflower oil. If you can't find it , I have the address of a website that you can order it from.
Try putting a little (1/5) of that liquid lead into it and see if you like it.

[Luis Guerreiro]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
My painting method is a bit different from Titanium's. I never paint "impasto". My plan is more wet into wet at the beginning, with earth colors, and then some glazing at the end. I don't do grisailles.
I use Trekell bristle brushes with Loriva(unrefined) walnut oil(found in the cooking aisle section of your grocers) to which I have added 20% "Siccative de Courtrai"(lead dissolved in white spirit). If you add 20% of that mixture to your paint, the siccative de Courtrai would be 4% of your paint .
I also spray a layer of damar and turps between each layer of paint. I grid and do my drawing with charcoal then spray lightly with the damar+ turps, then paint with walnut oil, then spray with damar, then another paint layer. It is working very nicely. It is a good way to add the varnish to your painting, and sets up a nice surface to paint on and keeps it shiney.
The siccative de Courtrai helps the paint dry fast(two days ). Bouguereau used it. You can find it at New York central art supply. I'm using Lefranc & Bourgeios.
I have tried all those other combinations and have arrived at the Loriva walnut oil as being the one I like best. It dries faster than the refined walnut oil because it is unrefined with no preservatives.

Correct!
Lead oxides used sparingly are excellent stabilisers of the paint film, preventing it from cracking. Used wisely do not yellow.

The SICCATIF OF COURTRAI Linda is mentioning here IS NOT the old 19th. Century Siccatif of Courtrai that has gained so bad reputation. The principle is the same, but new and modern industry standard processes made it a lot safer to use. Art Industries have also learnt from the bad experiences of the past and are now able to provide oil painters with better and safer siccatives.
I recommended LEFRANC & BOURGEOIS Siccatif of Courtrai because I use it all the time and it is safe to use.

This is it:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2002/LF_B_Siccative.jpg

NOTE TO LEO:

It sounds like it is pretty much the same as Doak's liquid lead, but less yellow. I don't know about Doak's recommended use of it. LEFRANC & BOURGEOIS. I retrieved some info I published on the 13th of April 2002. Here it is:

"LEAD & MANGANESE SICCATIVES

We have seen that the advantage of LEAD and MANGANESE siccatives compared to Cobalt is that Lead and Manganese dry the oil painting film from the inside out .
Of these, there have been some famous driers:

1. Siccatif of Harleem
2. Siccatif of Courtrai

Siccatives of Harleem have been discarded for a long time, because they were very dark and would tend to yellow and darken the picture.

Modern industrial practices have enhanced the methods of making Siccatif of Courtrai
There are 2 types of Courtrai Drier:

TYPE 1: Contains both Manganese and Lead salts and is the most powerful drier. Darker in colour, but modern industrial processes have managed to stop it from darkening pictures.

TYPE 2: Contains just Lead salts. Clear transparent it is not so powerful as type 1, but safer as it is safer to use with light colours or colours in which even a slight yellowing could pose problems.

The BEST Courtrai driers I ever experimented with and indeed used are manufactured by LeFranc & Bourgeois :

Product Ref. Code 1168 - Brown Courtrai Drier
Contains manganese and lead oxides

Product Ref. Code 3122 - White Courtrai Drier
Contains only lead oxides

MAXIMUM APPLICATION RATE: 1% to 5%, which means 2 to 3 drops of drier for a blob of oil paint of the size of a walnut.

These driers should be used only with slow drying colours, especially Brown Courtrai Drier. White Courtrai Drier may be used in the same proportions mixed in the painting medium."

Best regards

Luis:)

[Linda Ciallelo]

Thanks Luis, I only add my Courtrai to the walnut oil, and then the walnut oil to the paint in small amounts. It takes a couple of days for my paint to dry, and it dries hard with a nice texture.
Luis , where did you find your Lefranc & Bourgeois Courtrai Blanc? It's hard to find.

[Leopoldo1]

Muchas gracias Senor Luis y Linda tambien!

Great work Luis on your information pages. I applaud you!......L

[Luis Guerreiro]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
Thanks Luis, I only add my Courtrai to the walnut oil, and then the walnut oil to the paint in small amounts. It takes a couple of days for my paint to dry, and it dries hard with a nice texture.
Luis , where did you find your Lefranc & Bourgeois Courtrai Blanc? It's hard to find.

Hi Linda,

No probs.
Check the following list on our website:

http://www.oils-studio.co.uk/suppliers.htm

The TOP TWO suppliers have a mail service and sell LEFRANC & BOURGEOIS products. I know, I buy from them. I am sute they can send it overseas.

As for your method, it sounds good to me. Just a question: Does your medium create a precipitated deposit in the bottom, after a while? This is the only point to take into account in terms of safety. If it happens to be sugar of lead, then it is a good idea NOT to shake the bottle, but more expert input would be useful.

Regards

Luis

[Luis Guerreiro]

Originally posted by Leopoldo
Muchas gracias Senor Luis y Linda tambien!

Great work Luis on your information pages. I applaud you!......L

LOL! ;)

Leo, same question for you. I noticed a white deposit in the bottom of my medium bottles. I am using the following:

1 part stand oil
1 part pure gum turpentine
4% White Courtrai Drier from LeFranc & Bourgeois

I chose not to shake the bottle, so none of it mixes with my palette colours. I am not sure f it is sugar of lead or just white lead precipitated by contact with fatty acids contained in the oil.
What's your opinion Leo?
Many thanks

Luis

[Linda Ciallelo]

Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro


Hi Linda,

No probs.
Check the following list on our website:

http://www.oils-studio.co.uk/suppliers.htm

The TOP TWO suppliers have a mail service and sell LEFRANC & BOURGEOIS products. I know, I buy from them. I am sute they can send it overseas.

As for your method, it sounds good to me. Just a question: Does your medium create a precipitated deposit in the bottom, after a while? This is the only point to take into account in terms of safety. If it happens to be sugar of lead, then it is a good idea NOT to shake the bottle, but more expert input would be useful.

Regards

Luis
Thanks Luis, yes there is a bit of white deposit of some kind in the bottom of my medium. I did shake it today(first time). It might be paint since I dip my brush while I paint. There isn't any thing on the bottom of the Courtrai , or the walnut oil. I know that there is a similiar deposit on the bottom of my unused black oil.

[Luis Guerreiro]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo

Thanks Luis, yes there is a bit of white deposit of some kind in the bottom of my medium. I did shake it today(first time). It might be paint since I dip my brush while I paint. There isn't any thing on the bottom of the Courtrai , or the walnut oil. I know that there is a similiar deposit on the bottom of my unused black oil.

Ah! That's it, it's happening with you too. Nope, I think it is the medium, not dipping the brush, the reason for this precipitate. I usually make 2 or 3 bottles of it and all of them show the same white deposit.
I am wondering about this. I prefer not to shake the bottle for the moment. The medium dries fast and nicely anyway.

Luis

[mirza]

be lead?" I asked myself only today, after using a lot of flake and lead-tin yellow (ooh, do I love that stuff).

Linda, I'd seen you mention sicatif de courtrai and I'd heard (possibly you, Leo?) you need Doak's liquid lead for his lead primer--but I'd never put it together. Does it change the handling or for that would I need black oil?

It's like getting your prayers answered sometimes; I love this place. Thanks guys.

[Leopoldo1]

Originally posted by mirza
be lead?" I asked myself only today, after using a lot of flake and lead-tin yellow (ooh, do I love that stuff).

Linda, I'd seen you mention sicatif de courtrai and I'd heard (possibly you, Leo?) you need Doak's liquid lead for his lead primer--but I'd never put it together. Does it change the handling or for that would I need black oil?

Doak sells his lead white in a qt. paint container and it is so beautiful looking, pure white creamy stuff, and almost someone could substitute it by mistaken it for marshmellow topping at the local cooler at the grocery store. Anyway he suggests a drier, his of course, but any drier would work. That's all it does is speed up the drying process so one can get busy painting. You don't have to use a drier, but it might take a couple of weeks or longer for the white primer to dry. I don't like to use much black oil in my whites because that is exactly what it's color is, black and throws the white off a bit. Doaks lead drier is the clearest drier I have ever seen and when added to light colors no changed in value is observed. Handling is not effected by driers unless of course you way over did it and it set up too quickly.........L

[mirza]

Guess what's going on my Christmas list? (Oh, wait, that's a different thread.) Thanks, L.

[Leopoldo1]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
I know that there is a similiar deposit on the bottom of my unused black oil.

Me too! I suspect the lead salts over time settle a bit. I would sample taste it but I think the skull and crossbones is giving me a underlining hidden message. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2002/drool.gif This batch of black oil was made 11/28/00. Notice the inch of discoloration at the bottom. My double mastic and Doaks copal just to name a few all seem to settle a bit........L

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2002/blackoil.jpg

[Luis Guerreiro]

Originally posted by mirza
Guess what's going on my Christmas list? (Oh, wait, that's a different thread.) Thanks, L.

ROFL! :D

[Leopoldo1]

Originally posted by mirza
Guess what's going on my Christmas list? (Oh, wait, that's a different thread.) Thanks, L.

mirza, make sure you don't make the stupid mistake of adding the lead drier to the qt. container like I did, http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Dec-2002/bash.gifthinking once it was lidded again it would stay wet! Bad mistake just enough drier to the amount you think you will need..........L

[Luis Guerreiro]

Leo,

Yup, I know that too. In fact, Joseph Sheppard is adamant in his book ("How to paint like the Old Masters") that a precipitate will sink to the bottom of the bottle and after that one should not shake it.
But this is about black oil.
I am not sure if the same principle applies to the above white precipitate.
I mean, mixing say, 100 ml of stand oil with 100 ml of turps and then add 4%=8 ml of lead siccatif; all at room temp. no fuss... Couldn't be simpler than this. Yet, the precipitate will happen with a few weeks. What is it? Mistery! Dunno.
Sugar of lead?
Saponified matter?
Basic lead carbonate as a result of the reaction between lead salts (oxides) and fatty acids from the oil?

[Linda Ciallelo]

I used Williamsburgs white lead primer(before I knew that Doaks sold it) and also new York central Art Suppy's, and both were very nice stuff. It needed a lot of diluting with turpentine. I used half of the quart container at a time and mixed almost an equal amount of turpentine with it, and about 6 drops of cobalt siccative drier. Cobalt drier is a lot more powerful than lead drier. Like I said I used 6 drops to one quart of diluted lead primer. That was two years ago and the panels have held up nicely.

I keep my walnut oil in the fridge and my courtrai on the shelf, and only mix a little bit in a tiny bottle . So far it has lasted a long time.

[Titanium]

Folks,

I am sorry I spoke out on Linda's behalf,for
I have created a major digression in Eric's
request.

Please stop the entries on Lead/driers and
return to helping Eric.

The topic was Glazing......
I don't think will be very happy tomorrow
when he returns to the line and see all these
entries not related to his request.

I will ask Cheryl [Paintfool ] to remove the
irrelevant entries,beginning with mine.
Apologies.
Titanium

[Leopoldo1]

I wouldn't worry about it T, and don't lose any sleep over it, that is the way threads go sometime and invarible they come back into focus! BTW eric has a post WIP on his same theme, he posted today............L

[Linda Ciallelo]

All this information pertains to what Eric will use when he does his glazing. He can gather this information to make a more informed decision about what to try. It's better than just giving him a recipe that may or may not be good for him.

[ericbraks]

hello all...this is my lunchtime login...strawberry sandwiches with a bit of sugar, and instant coffee!
thanks Titanium for your consideration, but by no means should the 'off topic' posts be removed. i read them all, and am dumbfounded with the discussion, but it all goes toward my general knowledge ..'knowing what i dont know' so to speak.
with the 'keep it simple' philosophy, im not sure i will ever know what youre all talking about, but if it does turn out to be necessary to my work in future, at least ill be aware of the existance of these strange potions you all get involved with!
-eric.

[Titanium]

Eric,

as long as it's okay with you.You should
however be aware that as the word
came down from Conservation,they found
no Lead in the darks of the Old Masters.
[ there was however copper ]

The use of driers is supposed to be a
19th Century habit.

My concern is bombarding someone with
too much information and the confusion
that may follow.You have enough to
battle with.
Stay Well.
Titanium

[guillot]

Just wanted to say that this thread is fantastic. You guys remember to rate the thread at the bottom right of the page!!! This thread contains some wonderful information on a very complex subject.

Tina

[ericbraks]

absolutely good Titanium..i plan to do the fastest, no fuss paintings ever to begin with.
...later on i may learn the more refined aspects...but possibly even then, i may prefer the no fuss philosophy. even with regard to paint cracking...im not going to worry about it. someone posted a remark to the effect that many old artists couldnt be bothered waiting overly long for the paint to dry and so their works show cracking... sounds right with my temperament too!
..however thats not to say i dont care...i require of my work to become jawdroppingly excellent on the surface in terms of color/rendering and effects.

[Titanium]

Eric,

I am not sure what period your referring to but,
for the Renaissance and Baroque,the time taken
to paint a picture was for Titian years .As the
understanding of the technique grew,the time
grew a little shorter,but often the paintings
became simply decorative and weak.

Paintings painted with Lead White will crack after
50 years which is why I don't bother myself about
painting with lead paints.It's the nature of the
ageing of drying oils and stretched canvas.

Also stand oil dries by polymerisation.Any oil blended
with stand oil seems to also under go the polymerisation
process as well.So even if you don't use Lead the
paint coat will still have the durability of polymerised
drying.

If you follow the paint chip information I left for you,
and keep improving your drawing ability,I can assure
you,you will become much faster,but only at the speed
at which the oil dries.Then you can take the drier plunge
if need be.[ here Manganese will do more than Lead white
but there are drier properties to understand ]

BUT then why work in the same spot,if you can draw well.
This will make sense to you after a few attempts at
painting Multiple Imaginative Figurative works [ think
narrative or historical or just imaginative]

I use walnut oil because at our constant 25 to 30 deg.c
Linseed oil dries overnight or if with heavy use of a
15 % Zinc Oxide by weight 85%Ti02 White, in 2 days.
This also holds true for Lead White in Linseed oil,down
here.

I try to get the simplest information across,because there
is a great deal of out of date information being expressed
and it frequently fosters a great deal of useless
experimenting.
We have moved way ahead of the 19th Century and Doerner,
but painters still cling to romance.

Before I forget,the standard for excellence in Drawing when
training the eye is Charles Bargue [spelling ?],but I doubt
the ateliers will share those images with non attendants.
When you think of W.Bouguereau think of Bargue.
If you could find some of his examples,you would get the
standards in drawing your looking for.Good springboard
to jump off from.

Lastly,I remembered that you stated you had a time factor
to deal with,so I have tried to help you stay away from
the experimenting with mediums.
Composition and design will give you the jaw dropping
quality you seek.Texture or impasto is an individual's
response. Your surroundings in New Zealand,the
area being so beautiful,will assure a fantastic colour
sense,just tap into it.
Refined taste only comes with maturity/experience and
time.
Titanium

[Linda Ciallelo]

Originally posted by ericbraks

..however thats not to say i dont care...i require of my work to become jawdroppingly excellent on the surface in terms of color/rendering and effects.
Learning about and using good materials is a necessary part of producing paintings of "jaw dropping excellence". One of these days you'll see a painting that you really really like and wonder how they did that. Then you'll try to find this thread.

[Luis Guerreiro]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo

Learning about and using good materials is a necessary part of producing paintings of "jaw dropping excellence". One of these days you'll see a painting that you really really like and wonder how they did that. Then you'll try to find this thread.

Good point Linda. As usual.

Regards

Luis