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J.Dillon
04-09-2000, 09:48 PM
Here's one I did a while ago. I think the figures need work, perhaps some shading.
About 4" of the right side is missing of the 12"X18" Acrylic on masonite. How about the rest of the painting ? Thanks JD http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=259042&a=1928336&p=16748017&Sequence=0

bruin70
04-09-2000, 10:20 PM
i think the painting needs about four inches on the right side.....milt

bruin70
04-09-2000, 10:45 PM
who was that wise ass who posted that reply??? anyway, the cloud seems to lay atop the sail. i would overlap more.

the perspective is wrong. see where the horizon hits the sail,,,,measure that point to the water line on the boat. that is how high you are(or how hight the point of view is) so if it's, say it's 22 feet from the waterline to that point on the sail/horizon...you are 22 feet in the air or viewpoint. anything that is 22 feet high will hit the horizon level. if you painted another boat in the distance, and it was 22 feet high, it's top would hit the horizon line. if it was 44 feet high, it would be another 22 feet(or double the height) above the horizon. the boat, by that measure, is about double the distance above the horizon, so would be about 40 or so feet high. now,,,,look at the land mass in the background. you have made the mountain about 55 feet high. if you continue the horizon thru the mountain, the mountain base( i'm assuming it is where the shore is) to the horizon would be 22 feet. and so i gauge the remainder of the moutain to be about one more 22 foot length plus another ten or so feet. to correct the mistake all you need do is almost flatten(bring up) the shore to a horizontal plane close to the horizon. you would be shortening the unit of measure from mountain base to horizon, so that the rest of the mountain is now many multiples more than the 22 foot measured unit......milt

sandyartist
04-09-2000, 11:16 PM
On the money Milt..amen, amen.

paintfool
04-10-2000, 02:42 AM
Milt. Is there any way that you can edit this image so that i may understand your comments a little more clearly? or do i have to THINK? J.Dillon you have a most interesting way of using color! Very nice! The only thing that I, personaly would do with the figures is to soften them a bit. They're very sharp edged for being that far away. Cheryl

bruin70
04-10-2000, 02:45 AM
btw,,,,with all that perspective talk,,,,i forgot. the coloring of the white sail and the sailors is the wrong temperature. they're too white. in situations where there is a lot of color, the placement of isolated whites don't work well. white would stick out. the best thing to do is just get the value right and use many different colors in your whites so that they cancel each other out. it'll appear white, neutral, and have enough color to set in the painting well......milt

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"he who thinks he know all and knows nothing is king in a kingdom of one,,,,,or a critic" - the kobe

bobsart
04-10-2000, 08:06 AM
The sails are too opaque. Since the light source is behind the sails, I would have lightened them and added the mast and rigging shaddows...and ditto milt.

bob

[This message has been edited by bobsart (edited April 10, 2000).]

LarrySeiler
04-10-2000, 10:39 AM
Another rule of thumb, is to not end a mass behind something, but go beyond it. In this case, it is visually disturbing to end the mass of the background land behind the sail where it cannot be seen, better to let the land jut out a bit beyond the left side of the sail.

To help the boat stand out better, the far side or port side of the boat could reflect by its edge the light of the setting sun, and create a necessary contrast from the water which is too similar in values. Same with the far edge of the rudder/control, and part of the upright mast. I would also play to death the opportunity to put the effects of the sunset light on the wake trailing the boat.

Sail material is light, and some of the glow of the sun should be sensed through them.

And at this time of night...the sailors would nearly begin to appear as silouettes, thus the whites (with exception of reflecting the light of the sun) would nearly not be visible.

peace,

Larry

J.Dillon
04-10-2000, 02:54 PM
Hi all who critique my effort. I wish to express my thanks for taking the time to study the rendering. You have given me valuable insight for improving my work. It will take me some time to digest your prespective remarks and effect repairs to all the comments made here.

What books are there that would coach someone in sea type paintings. I know the ships pretty well and I can recall in my minds eye how they should look on canvas but to do it ?,,, Ah that is where we all struggle in varing degrees.

LarrySeiler
04-10-2000, 04:32 PM
My recommendations "J" is to make a habit of simply looking at paintings, and study them. I would frequent the bookstores, and make sure to pick up "American Art Review"

they say it takes 21 days to develop a habit, and I literally cannot recall the last day I did not pick up magazines at home and study works. I don't leave the house and head to a restaurant without taking one. (my wife doesn't always approve...!).

Larry

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"Art attacks can skill!"

henrik
04-10-2000, 06:27 PM
I have a Walter Foster book called "The Sea in Action" by Earl Daniels - it has some breathtaking seascapes.

I think you will also find plenty of valuable information about plein air painting and perspective at this site http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/1location.htm
(This page is big - lots of information and diagrams - scroll down a bit from the start - there is a section on seascapes as well - enjoy. I think it will give you some illustrations of the info Milt posted earlier).



[This message has been edited by henrik (edited April 10, 2000).]

bruin70
04-11-2000, 02:04 AM
cheryl,,,,,

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/Viewagain.jpg

bruin70
04-11-2000, 02:22 AM
cheryl....if we assume that the eyelevel is 22 feet, and therefore anything 22 feet would be at the same level as the horizon(because the horizon and your eyelevel are the same heighth),,,,,,and that the base of the mountain is approximately at the shore. btw, my redraw is not accurate to the painting so go with me on this. then the red line is about 22 feet and the green line to the mountain top is about 60feet. this is what dillon painted....milt

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/perspective1.jpg

sandyartist
04-11-2000, 02:31 AM
Good grief Milt, Bob...Larry...do youse guys always have to be so...well, right!? Not knowin' a sail from a riggin'...we don't have too many sea-goin vessels in ol' KY..jus' a few lil' ones on the Ohio River...I cannot speak to the technical aspects of sailin'...however, from an artistic consideration standpoint, I would say...you are on the money and J should take it from here, show us the improvements 'n the blue ribbon...nice work guys! Sandy

bruin70
04-11-2000, 02:32 AM
i raised the base in the redo. so now,,,if the red is 22 feet, then the green(mountain heighth) is about 300 feet.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/perspectiveredo1.jpg

arlene
04-11-2000, 10:00 AM
Milt,
Even with your redo, something still is hitting me wrong, and I can't put my finger on it. [Never did get the hang of landscapes] I think it's something with the way the boat is drawn, but I could be wrong.

J.Dillon
04-11-2000, 05:32 PM
Milt , Henrik

When your right your right I can see the improvement ya did to my scene. Thanks again and I hope others can learn from my mistakes. Gosh this Forum is great I hope the government doesn't figuue a way to tax it, or is that a topic for the cafe ?

Im going to try a nude next as a change of pace, never done it before. JD

bruin70
04-12-2000, 02:18 AM
dill,,,,just thought i'd goofed around with imagery. once again, 22 feet is the eyelevel. i drew down the shore to the foreground. i put people in at different distances. i put an 18 foot tree in the water, and a 30 foot telephone pole next to it,,,,both on the same level as the second figure........milt


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/prespstuff2.jpg

[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited April 12, 2000).]

paintfool
04-13-2000, 12:40 AM
Thanks Milt. This info is so helpful to me & i understand very well now. I did some sketching to make sure i comprehended & wella!...Cheryl

J.Dillon
04-15-2000, 11:54 AM
Milt, Back to perspective 101. How did you determine that 22 feet is the distance from the horizion to the boats waterline ? Did you base it on the standing sailor ?

Also if I wanted to represent the base of the distant mountain, and a shore line from the base coming back to the viewer at an angle then to a form peninsular. How would I do that ? In your last example with the tree, T. pole, the illustration is clear especially with people of different sizes to create the illusion of distance but it goes long into the fore ground, something not factual to the situation I was trying to depict.

Thanks and pardon my ignorance. JD

Old Florida
04-15-2000, 10:12 PM
Hi JD,
Since you like to do marines, I recommend you obtain a copy of "Painting Ships, Shores, and the Sea," Rachel Rubin Wolf is the editor, 1997, published by North Light Books. There are various well-known contributors, all of whom are members of the American Society of Marine Artists. They explain in great detail how to avoid many of the common problems of this genre and offer some gorgeous examples of their work. You can order a copy from the internet through either of the big booksellers. Old Florida

bruin70
04-15-2000, 11:28 PM
yes,,,i approximated the heighth of the boat based on the sailors. remember that as you see far distance, measurements get closer together. as in, if you look down a railroad track, you'll see that the cross beam thingys show space near you but get clustered as the tracks go into the distance. at the distance that the mountain is at in your scene, all space gets very tight. see how the figures get clustered in the far shore. so,,,,,the space to show mountain base and shore line coming toward you is negligable. just show a VERY thin light line depicting the shore. the only way to show the shore will be in profile, as it juts sideways to the mountain's left side.

J.Dillon
04-17-2000, 12:08 AM
Thanks again Bruin and Milt.

Old Florida,

Thanks also for putting me on to a good book for marine painting technique. I will be sure to get it and expect it will me improve my work. It seems you also share intrest in this subject. Have you posted any paintings in the past or expect to ? JD

bruin70
04-17-2000, 09:35 PM
there's an oddness here that i might be reading into too much. see what you think.
forget about the perspective for a second. if the boat is in deep sea, then the profile you set up for the land is confusing because since the shore starts towards you, it IMPLIES that the boat is just off shore. a better view would be to show the WHOLE land as backdrop to the boat. in other words, if i was viewing the boat far out to sea where you have placed it, which is in the foreground,,,,,then looking back to the land, i would see the land as backdrop...not partially as you show. hmmmmmmmmmmm,,,i don't think i explained it right...i will post an image.....milt

bruin70
04-18-2000, 03:41 AM
here's what i mean. the comp you did(the cropped area) implies to me that the shore comes toward me and therefore the boat is not out at sea but more closer to the shore(the full pic).....milt

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/one.jpg

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"he who thinks he know all and knows nothing is king in a kingdom of one,,,,,or a critic" - the kobe

bruin70
04-18-2000, 03:45 AM
this implies more to me thyat the boat is out to sea and the land is far in the background...just my opinion.....milt

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/two.jpg

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"he who thinks he know all and knows nothing is king in a kingdom of one,,,,,or a critic" - the kobe

arlene
04-18-2000, 10:27 AM
Dillon,
What is the actual size of the boat? How many feet long and wide?

paintfool
04-18-2000, 10:49 AM
UH OH...far be it for me to argue with you Milt,but...I feel more like the boat is closer in with the backdrop being all land. The first & original post, with the land being off to the side makes me feel more 'far out'. However, if the entire background were to be land, in order to feel far out you'd want to make the mountains in the background very very small. This is my very humble opinion.....cheryl

anita
04-18-2000, 06:22 PM
Just a note.. There seems to be a big void on the bottom right side..I like the way you treated the shoreline on the land..I like the colors of the sunset..Good job.
THe positon of the flag bothers me..IT keeps attracting my eye away from the sailors..The ship seems to be traveling to the right and the flag causes your eye to move in the opposite direction.YOu might want to mute the colors,too since the flag is so much higher up.IT seems to fight your beautiful sunset..

ReNae
04-18-2000, 08:39 PM
Dillon,
I've really enjoyed all of your marine paintings. The one thing that always strikes me is the flag. If you look at the perspective of the sails - the flag looks like it is waving in the opposite direction.
Anyway, keep up the great work. I cannot wait to get my scanner!!

ReNae

"Nothing in the world is accomplished without passion."

bruin70
04-18-2000, 09:14 PM
aha!!!!! well,,,,three solutions. bring the penninsula over to the left, short of the edge. that way there may be room to bring in a shore line, faintly, on the right. the other is to raise your eyelevel. that will allow you to see more shore line. the third is to bring the penninsula closer, allowing you to show more shore on the right as it comes toward you......milt

bruin70
04-18-2000, 09:18 PM
one more solution, and maybe the easiest one.......make your mountain higher. extend the tip of the penninsula past the sail and raise the mountain to correct it's heigth problem......milt

bruin70
04-19-2000, 12:11 AM
true cheryl....but what i was trying to show dillon is that the POSITIONING of the two elements makes a difference. in my interpretation, it looks like you're out in sea looking back at land. in dillon's, i feel like the land might wind back TOWARDS the boat, which i don't think i dillon's intent. pay no mind to the scale. i wasn't trying to be true.....milt

J.Dillon
04-19-2000, 12:19 AM
Milt, The boat is coming into a larger(unseen in the scan) bay off to the right. A peninsular is one end of another smaller bay, connected to the distant mountain by the smaller bay's shore.
I think the penisular is confusing things as the easy solution is to simply paint it out.

Arlene, The boat is about 32' long with a 8' beam (width). JD

J.Dillon
04-19-2000, 09:01 AM
ReNae' Anita, This painting was a kind of commission for the shipmates in the boat. It depicts an event that happened 50 years ago. The flag is important to us. It is flying correctly as the wind is just fwd. of the port (left)side. Not shown in the scan(its too small) is a US Navy ship off in the distance,anchored in a harbor behind the peninsular. ( I'll E mail the story to those interested) JD

mark71565
04-21-2000, 04:36 PM
Well, I "think" I know what Milt is talking about, although the numbers are a bit too much math for me. **grins**

But... Perhaps the third man from the left knows more about the situation at hand that the rest of us. He seems to be looking over his right shoulder; concerned perhaps at the coming "swell."

Since the horizon is a bit higher than normal, it seems to create a "tidal wave" effect. Nothing too ominous; just a large, powerful wave that amy or may not capsize the craft.

It's just an idea http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

Mark

bruin70
04-21-2000, 08:48 PM
mark,,,,,,heheheheh