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Deb
03-25-2000, 11:16 AM
I've been painting for about a year. First in watercolor and now in water soluble oils, teaching myself as I go along. This painting of a window in St Tropez is my second in oil. It's on a 16x20 canvas and painted from a photo in a travel magazine.The sidewalk bothers me...it looks more like the wall. I also feel that I may need something on the right of the window. I would welcome any suggestions.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/window2.jpg


[This message has been edited by Deb (edited March 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Deb (edited March 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Deb (edited March 25, 2000).]

cagathoc
03-25-2000, 11:18 AM
Can't see photo Deb...

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Cindy Agathocleous

"What if imagination and art are not, as many of us might think, the frosting on life, but the fountainhead of human experience?" - Rollo May from The Courage to Create

paintfool
03-25-2000, 02:35 PM
i have to agree with Arlene about the perspective issue regarding the sidewalk. Try angling the cracks upward from left right as well as receeding them. also, it seems, there is a problem with your shadowing. the light source (sun) is comming from the right, which you have depicted with your shading of the inner window frame, beautifuly, might i add, yet the shutters have shadowing on the outer patr of the RIGHT one. it sholud be on the left shutter.this makes your light source come from one direction only. as far as composition, i agree w/ Arlene the wall needs nothing more. It's quite beautiful all in all & i am really impressed! Greetings from a fellow Floridian artist!...Cheryl

henrik
03-25-2000, 02:54 PM
paintfool - maybe I am wrong, but the light comes from the left as I see it - I see no problem at all with shading; shadows should fall to the right.

oleCC
03-25-2000, 09:59 PM
I see no railings or sidewalk ?! I was going to suggest a few more shadows on the red wall in the upper left area to break up the red just a bit....but... not seeing the whole picture makes a difference too. Nice work !
http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

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http://www.artistnation.com/members/lofts/olecc

RyderArt
03-25-2000, 10:27 PM
Deb...
I love this piece!! I agree with Hendrik...the light source seems to be consistent. I think that once you solve the sidewalk problem...it will all come together.
Keep up the good work.

Stephanie

arlene
03-25-2000, 11:26 PM
i agree with henrik. the shading is correct as it is. truely the only thing is the perspective on the stones.

[This message has been edited by arlene (edited March 25, 2000).]

arlene
03-26-2000, 12:45 AM
only doing art for a year?
excellent!
the reason the sidewalk is bothering you is because the perspective is not correct.
The stones even if they are even with each other need to have a feeling of going to a vanishing point. From what I can determine your vanishing point should be above the 2nd railing on the right about halfway up.
Fix that and I think the picture is fine the way it is. I wouldn't add anything to the wall. The starkness is a wonderful contrast to the window.

henrik
03-26-2000, 04:35 AM
I must admit that I first thought the stones at the bottom to be part of the wall - making some small changes to make them look more like part of the wall is probably easier than turning them into a sidewalk.

paintfool
03-26-2000, 06:37 AM
Deb, seems that i jumped the gun on that one! They are right and i was wrong about your shadows. I went back & looked again. this time i gave your beautiful painting the time that it deserves. I extend my humble apologies...Cheryl

MichaelRH
03-26-2000, 08:41 AM
Deb, I hope you can resolve the walk/wall to YOUR satisfaction! You have painted a beautiful painting..love the colors!!, and the wonderful way you've handled the shadows and detail elements. Quite nice!
See you in the Cafe! MichaelRH

bruin70
03-30-2000, 07:40 AM
your shadows are ok. acually, unless you want to be picky, only the major shadows are of concern. you can noodle the rest to your mood.you have all the important shadows covered. what is the odd shaped shadow that falls just below the window sill on the green grey wall? it's telling a different story about the shapes involved. the tree shadow on the sidewalk is off. it should almost be kinda like a reverse image to the shadow on the wall. one trick you might want to add to really set that tree shadow, is to paint one of those elongated "light holes(where the sun peeks thru the cast shadow)" to the wall bottom and onto the sidewalk. this way, you can accentuate both the wall and sidewalk planes better. the perspective on the sidewalk should line up to the same perspective as the lines on the sill. if you extend THOSE lines to a convergence point, the sidewalk lines would point to the same vanishing point. the vanishing point is on the same horizontal plane as the your eye level. if you are 6 ft tall, the VP is on the horizon line of 6 ft. if you are on a ladder looking at this scene from 10 feet high, the horizon is at the 10 foot level and the VP is somewhere on that horizon line...over all, you have a very perceptive eye. nice painting, nice design.....milt

[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited March 30, 2000).]

bruin70
03-30-2000, 08:25 AM
my stupid mistake...sorry. there are no lines on the sill,,,those are cast shadows from the grill. duh!!! you are almost straight on perpendicular to the window. the only evidence otherwise is the very slight angle view of the inside wall of the window. it appears, looking closely, that the vanishing point is aligned with the right side of the window, at you eye level. therefore all parallel lines(like the sidewalk lines) should point to that spot.

bruin70
03-30-2000, 08:43 AM
here's your perspective ....assuming that the horizon here is roughly your eyelevel. all parallel lines go to that vanishing point. but then a thought occured to me. what if the sidwalk stones are irregular?there a couple of solutions. one is to KIND OF line up the irregular lines to imply the vanishing point. that would be the best solution, i think. the other would be to reconstruct your composition. as it is now, the sidewalk just drops off the canvas. showing the edge of the sidewalk would help. also doing a makeshift perspective on the stones,,,make the stones near the sidewalk edge larger than the stones near the wall. that would make the sidewalk look like it was angling away. overall, though, a linear interpretation of perspective is the simplest solution...and you never want to get too complicated for the viewer....milt

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/window2redo.jpg

[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited March 30, 2000).]

ReNae
03-30-2000, 10:15 AM
Deb,
Beautiful, beautiful! You have a great eye! I love the contrast in your painting. If I may offer a tiny bit of advice. I love painting stones and noticed there is no shadows on the bottom stones. If the light source is to the left, those crevices should have a little bit more of shading to indicate the roughness and texture of the stone. I do not see a sidewalk, but maybe if you hinted to one it might help tie it all together.

Wonderful job! Applause, applause!

ReNae

arlene
03-30-2000, 11:11 AM
Bruin,

I think the vanishing point should be over to the left a bit from what you drew, at the point where the mullions in the center of the window meet, above the second railing from the right.

I think you'll see that even the perspective of the window ledge reaches to that point.

[This message has been edited by arlene (edited March 30, 2000).]

paintfool
03-30-2000, 01:23 PM
with all due respect, Arlene, i have to go with Bruins' 'fix' on the vanishing point. I too ReNae love to paint rocks & stones!! wonder what that says about us? by the way, Arlene, tried to view your work the other night after chatting but for some reason or another, couldn't get there. Woulld you pleas e-mail the address to me again? Thanks, Cheryl

arlene
03-30-2000, 02:40 PM
Cheryl,
I beg to differ.
If you take a straight edge from the vanishing points on the ledge under the window, you will see that the lines lead to where I was saying, which is where the mullions meet above the second vertical railing from the right [or the middle of the right-hand window]. Unfortunately, I don't have a paint program to show you.

bruin70
03-30-2000, 03:35 PM
arlene,,,the reason the VP is where i put it is because we're lined up with the right side of the wall INSET. i hope "inset" is the proper word. i'm talking about that part of the red wall that goes in. you can see more of this wall on the left than the right. in fact we are exactly on the same plane as the right "inset". therefore the VP can be at no other vertical line. if the VP was further in than i showed, we would see more of the right, inside part of that wall,,,like we do the left, only not as much. as a matter of fact, the VP should be EXACTLY on the right wall edge, since we are on its plane. i just placed it a bit in for the hell of it. OR,,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe deb miscalculated her drawing. but rather than place THAT onus on this daring, artistic soul,,, maybe these old cities were built,,,,,,,whacky. they shoulda used a straight edge. nonetheless, i'm curious as to what you're using as a guide. first, what's a mullin? second what guides areyou taking off the ledge? all i see are the shadow lines of the grill, which aren't related to the VP. and a crooked crack that extends to the ledge front. the only guide is the left bottom edge where the red wall meets the top ledge. and irregardless, THAT line should intersect the vertcal line of the right wall edge. that's where the VP would be...milt

[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited March 30, 2000).]

arlene
03-30-2000, 07:57 PM
Milt,
A mullion is the bars that hold the window panes in.
I looked over the pic again and I still see the vanishing point where I stated.
But...this might be a function of my computer screen, so...
the best advice would be for Deb to take the actual painting and intersect the two point to find the actual vanishing point and to use that as her guide.
I used where the wall went in towards the window using both the top and bottom.

[This message has been edited by arlene (edited March 30, 2000).]

bruin70
03-31-2000, 01:15 AM
arlene...look at it this way. there are several lines in the window that one could use to find the VP.and they could all misalign if deb is not EXACT. assume that she is not EXACT because she probably didn't use a straight edge, not plan the drawing like a schematic. she probably eyeballed the whole thing. then what is the most obvious element to deal with in interpreting the perspective. i think it is the alignment to the side. she can fudge everything else. try this.....lets say you stand in the middle at one end of a big room. looking straight down the room, all the horizontal(ceiling and floor) lines will converge to a VP that is directly in front of you. your viewpoint is at the horizontal and vertical axis of the VP. horizontal being your eyelevel. you see both sides of the room converging to the VP. now,,,if you could stand looking right down one wall, you will see the other wall angling to the VP, but not the wall you're looking down at. this is because that wall and you stand at the same vertical axis. and just as in the previous scenario, since you're aligned parallel with the room looking straight ahead, you share the same VP as the room. this what is happening with the window. the painting shows that we are aligned with the right wall. that is why you see the inside left wal, but not the right. the vertical axis of the right wall and you are the same. therefore, the VP MUST rest on that vertical.in the image on the left, we are at the center of the room and see what i indicated... on the right we are at one end of the wall and see what is indicated. the right image is what deb is giving us. we see the inside left wall, but we don't see the inside right,,, and is why the VP aligns to the right wall. the blue dot is where we are, the green is the VP at that viewpoint...forgive the touchpad drawing...milt

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/perspective.jpg



[This message has been edited by bruin70 (edited March 31, 2000).]

CarlyHardy
03-31-2000, 01:48 PM
Deb, I love your painting! one of my favorite subjects to photograph and to paint are shuttered windows, especially ones with a lot of character. I don't think you need to add anything to the right side of the painting...let the viewer think what might be there.

However, a black cat (you know the slinky kind) sitting and staring up at that vanishing point might be interesting!
carly

cagathoc
03-31-2000, 02:03 PM
no cats, ppppppllllleeeaaaassseee!!!!

arlene
04-03-2000, 02:53 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/window3.jpg

Here are the changes I tried to explain before. As Milt and I have gone back and forth, it all depends on where you see the vanishing point. This is my version.

[This message has been edited by arlene (edited April 03, 2000).]

Deb
04-04-2000, 12:09 AM
I just got back from vacation and had a chance to read the posts. Thanks everyone for your help and kind words. Milt, you are right in that I just looked at the picture and tried to paint what I saw. I didn't quite understand the VP or how you determined where it was but I am going to study it so in my next paintings I will have the perspective right. I think I will set this one aside until it is clear to me how it should be fixed.

arlene
04-17-2000, 04:07 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/window21.jpg
the yellow lines are the ones used to determine the vp. this was based on your artwork. the pink lines come from the vp to make the cobblestones.