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Alyona
11-04-2002, 02:48 PM
Hi everybody!

Arlene, I hope I didn't do wrong that post this question in colored pencils forum.
An artwork in colored pencils looks different than pastel, oil or watercolor and I have question: what kind of paper (glossy or not glossy) will be better for prints.
I just received my new printer Epson 3000 today. (I know, know, I heard all of bad stuff about it, how it breaks constantly, how slow it is, etc. But it is new, I have 2 years warranty and it is wide format printer (that what is most important for me)). So I am very excited. I am going to order archival ink for printer (Epsonís ink is not archival, even if they say so) and I am not sure about paper. I know, that it supposed to be an archival paper (I hope Stonehenge is archival enough for this purpose:) ). So, glossy or not glossy, that is the question:confused: .
Thanks for help in advance for everybody!

BTW, my client for dog drawing has deadline delay, so I am not in rush any more for a week. Promise to show progress as soon as I will have it!:)

Elankat
11-04-2002, 03:13 PM
I think it's probably appropriate here, since it is dealing specifically with how CP looks with prints. My inclination would be to buy specially coated watercolor paper for the prints. You should be able to get some at the same place you order the inks.

I guess I have a preference for a watercolor paper or matte paper because it makes me think of art and not photographs. Additionally, I'm not really certain how archival the glossy papers really are. I remember reading something about them not being truly archival.

Alyona
11-04-2002, 03:21 PM
Thanks LeAnne!
I think so too.
Glossy look is more for photographs, than for fine art work.
But it is my humble opinion.... maybe people who actually buy prints prefer the glossy look? Do you have any idea about it?
I am absolutely new in this area and just start doing my first steps, need help a lot!

And what is the special coating on watercolor paper? to prevent ink soaking? is it not so bumpy on the surface?


Thanks a lot again!

arlene
11-04-2002, 04:21 PM
they want prints to look like the original...use their papers only...other papers dont work...and their inks are as stated...I don't know about the 3000, but i'm assuming they use the pigmented inks? if so, they're archival for at least 100 years on their watercolor paper.

Alyona
11-04-2002, 04:34 PM
Hi Arlene!
Thanks a lot for responding!

You know, before invest this kind of money:o I read a lot about printers, inks and papers. Most information I have from this web site: www.inkjetart.com
Looks like they are specialists in this area and they say that Epson's ink is not archival so as Epson's paper.
I read about it not only on this web, but on few other sites.
Everybody strongly recommended to use third party archival ink of course if I am worrying about my future clients and reputation.
So I decided to do this. But still not sure in paper. I noticed that on the http://www.inkjetart.com./ they mention Arches WC cold press and Arches WC hot press paper. I never head deal with this paper. What would be better for prints? Is it very different with Stonehenge paper?

Still confused....:confused:

Thanks a lot!

mel-ink
11-04-2002, 05:35 PM
I just got some giclee prints back a couple of weeks ago done on matte watercolor paper and they look great! In fact, the lady at the gallery couldn't tell it wasn't the original at first :D . So my vote is for the matte watercolor paper also...your point about glossy paper being for photographs is exactly what I thought too!

Elankat
11-04-2002, 06:21 PM
The special watercolor paper has been coated so that it absorbs the ink evenly. Epson makes it, although it can be harder to find.

There is an excellent thread in the business forum in which Pixelscapes talks about the inks and paper. I know this thread also mentioned that Epson inks aren't as archival as they say. That being said, the thread is also older and I know Epson has reportedly improved their ink quality.

Others have very successfully used third party inks and papers. My own personal experience with my Epson 875 Photo is that if I don't use their ink and their paper, my image looks awful. Half the time, it still looks awful. It doesn't matter how much I mess with settings or clean the print heads, I get all sorts of junk print outs. I've been SORELY disappointed in my Epson printer, yet Epson printers are generally acknowledged as the best ink jet for prints. So, I'm not really sure what I'll end up doing if I have to make prints in the future.

arlene
11-04-2002, 06:52 PM
Epson inks are as the company says...these other companies want to sell their own inks...

My printer on Matte heavyweight paper is listed for 25 years bye the wilheilm institute...and I've seen tests run by some of the PC magazines.

Pixel's thread is over a year old and was on an older printer.

ZB3
11-05-2002, 07:24 AM
Hi, Alyona:

One paper you might want to think about trying is BFK Rives. I think it's a French paper, but it's widely available in the U.S.

I like digital art, as well as colored pencil, especially art produced by a computer program called Painter 7. There are Painter WOW books, which give neat tips and tricks. Anyway, the lady who writes the Painter WOW books likes to create digital art, then handwork the prints with colored pencil. She told me she uses Rives paper for this. (I emailed her and asked for paper recommendations...I don't know her personally.)

Rives is advertised as an inkjet paper, and I haven't seen anything that says it needs to be sprayed before printing. The reason you have to spray some papers (like Stonehenge) with an inkjet coating, is because the paper will soak up a lot of the ink and make your print dull.

I've only printed a sketch on Rives paper (basis for a CP painting that didn't work out), but the sketch looked fine...even at 10% opacity. :) I do intend to try the lady's trick of creating digital art and then handworking with pencils, though. :) It sounds like fun.

Good luck!

Jan

gemmag
11-05-2002, 09:21 AM
I use Bienfang Bristol Board, I use the Vellum finish. Here's a link at Dick Blicks:Beinfang Bristol (http://www.dickblick.com/zz133/02/products.asp?param=0&ig_id=964)
I also use Strathmore's digital art papers, Dick Blicks also carries that, here's the link: Digital Art Paper (http://www.dickblick.com/categories/digitalartpapers/)

I wouldn't use glossy, it looks to much like a photo and you want it to look as close to your original art as possible.

Gemma

arlene
11-05-2002, 12:01 PM
I have tried printing on alot of different papers, including stonehenge and all have given poor results...seems if u buy and epson printer you're best off using epson paper.

Elankat
11-05-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by arlene
I have tried printing on alot of different papers, including stonehenge and all have given poor results...seems if u buy and epson printer you're best off using epson paper.

I'd definitely agree with that statement. At least that's the case with my Epson. I wish I could remember where I saw the Epson watercolor paper. It was a website. Maybe it was the Epson site. Their matte heavyweight is available everywhere. I get mine at Office Max. The only thing I don't like about it is that the coated side is almost too brilliantly white.

gemmag
11-05-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by arlene
I have tried printing on alot of different papers, including stonehenge and all have given poor results...seems if u buy and epson printer you're best off using epson paper.

The problem with this the epson paper is typically for photos, not for fine art. I too, have tried several different types and found the ones I listed work quite well for art type prints. The nice thing about it is they are already pre-cut to fit the wide format printers.

Take Care,
Gemma

arlene
11-05-2002, 04:06 PM
gemma, is your epson pigment or dye based?

JamieWG
11-05-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Alyona
they mention Arches WC cold press and Arches WC hot press paper. I never head deal with this paper. What would be better for prints? Is it very different with Stonehenge paper?


I have both these Arches papers here. I'll try to run some tests when I get back from work tonight and report back.

Jamie

Alyona
11-05-2002, 07:37 PM
Thanks everybody for replies!
I had conversation today with couple representatives of Epson Company.
I discovered that my printer (I asked specifically for my printer Stylus 3000) doesn't have archival ink. It is dye-based ink and it is not archival at all. They said that only few desktop printers have archival ink and real wide format printers ($3000 and up). He said that company working now on replacing stylus 3000 with new model with archival ink. Any way, I am going to order third party ink - MSI water based pigment ink, which supposed to be good for my printer and not clogged heads. Although with this if something happened with printer, I will lose Epson warranty.
Now, about Epsonís paper. They answered that only one kind of paper is archival (and still not completely acid free) it is premium white and it is 24 lb. I think it is not what I want - too thin. So, looks like I am going to find as cheap as possible Arches hot press 90lb or140lb. It is not glossy, has relatively smooth surface and not coated. What is good about coating - it gives you sharp image, but for my printer is not very good. First of all they not recommend using more than 64lb paper, which I am going to do. And this printer has "pizza wills". If you use coated paper and coating is clay based, this pizza wills will left marks on the print. There is way to remove it from printer but in this case I will not be able hold paper in same place in printer (something about registration - not very sure how it works). Any way seems like it is better idea to change paper than modify expensive printer.
I heard about Epsonís paper and ink being not archival from different sources before. But today looks like two guys from Epson said exactly same stuff. Again, I am talking about my model Epson stylus 3000. I didn't ask what kinds of printers have archival ink (I think it is c80 and stylus2200 - not very sure in it)
Any way, that is my research for today.

JamieWG
11-05-2002, 08:56 PM
I just printed one of my sketches out on Arches 140 lb. hot press and I was very impressed. Mine is a large format HP ink jet printer, using HP colored ink (non-archival as far as I know). I was very surprised by what a good job it did on the Arches paper. I wouldn't hesitate to use this for greeting cards, etc. I didn't try it on the cold press, but I think for CP work, the hot press would be far superior anyway.

Jamie

Alyona
11-05-2002, 09:15 PM
thanks Jamie for your testing!
I think I am going for Arches hot press 140 lb too.
It is thick enough, has good and smooth enough surface, archival and I think almost every art supply company have it in stock. the trick is to find out the cheapest price.
Hope it will work good on my printer too!
thanks again!

BTW, cold press has rougher surface and I think will eat more ink than hot press. I dono.... let me know if you are going to test it!

Elankat
11-05-2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Alyona
I heard about Epsonís paper and ink being not archival from different sources before. But today looks like two guys from Epson said exactly same stuff. Again, I am talking about my model Epson stylus 3000. I didn't ask what kinds of printers have archival ink (I think it is c80 and stylus2200 - not very sure in it)
Any way, that is my research for today.

Not entirely true. It depends on your printer. Some inks are dye based and some are pigment based. Different Epson printers use different ones. The ink cartridges used in certain Epson printers use inks that are archival. Also, they make a paper called "Archival Matte" that is 45 lb. and 10.3 mill. thickness, sold in 3 different sizes and works with both dye and pigment based inks. There is also a watercolor paper that is used for certain Epson printers. It's only in large sheets, but can be cut down. They also have a line of acid free art papers. The problem is that they aren't for use with the printer you have.

Part of the issue is that your printer is using pizza wheels. Those limit the thickness of paper that the printer can handle. If you need printout that are on a thick paper, you have to get a printer that doesn't utilize heavy pressure pizza wheels and is as straight of a line as possible between the input and output.

Also, straight from the Epson site:

EPSON does not recommend refilling or using 3rd party ink
cartridges. Using these products will not void the Epson warranty,
however, if these products cause a failure, the repair of that
failure will not be covered under warranty.

Oh, and Jamie...I had an HP inkjet (on loan from my company when I was working from home). HP's are far more forgiving about the paper you put in. I could use non-HP paper in it without any problems. If I did that with my Epson, the printout would have splotches and lines and funky color. Once, I used HP paper with my Epson and the ink just wiped right off 3 days later.

JamieWG
11-05-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Elankat


Oh, and Jamie... Once, I used HP paper with my Epson and the ink just wiped right off 3 days later.

LeAnne, thank you for this. I won't give any more advice for Epson printer owners, knowing that my HP doesn't react the same way.

Jamie

Elankat
11-05-2002, 10:23 PM
Alonya, you may want to give these people a call and ask some questions.

http://www.inkjetart.com/

Alyona
11-05-2002, 11:07 PM
Sorry, LeAnne, it is not "Alonya", it is Alyona:)
Yes, if you take a look on my first post in this thread, I mentioned exactly this web site (I think more than once :) ).
And yes, I did call them and talk to them (I think 3 times so far) and I am going to order MIS ink cartridges from them. I think I can find the paper cheaper somewhere else.
And yes, I mentioned that some Epson printers have archival ink and Epson has archival paper, but it is too thin for me (24 lb or as you said 45 lb - I have not seen that one).
And yes, on http://www.inkjetart.com/ they explain how to remove the pizza wheel. But as I said before, I'll try to print first with the pizza wheel. (After all it is a new printer still under warranty.) If it doesn't work then, sigh, I may remove it.
So, generally, looks like we are talking about the same things :) .
Maybe it is my horrible English?:(
Hope it will be better later :).

Elankat
11-05-2002, 11:29 PM
My apologies. I have had sinus migraines for 2 days. I don't read or type well when dealing with them. I missed the post in the middle of the thread with the inkjet site.

A 45 lb. matte paper is a fairly decent weight for a print. It's not quite as heavy as Stonehenge, but it's certainly heftier than the standard paper. The paper is listed on the Epson website as well as the inkjetart site. For reference, 45 lbs is about as thick/weighty as a photo.

The point of my post was to let you know that there were several other archival papers available through Epson beyond the 24 lb. paper that the representative told you about. I also wanted you to know that use of other inks does not void your entire warranty and to let others know that there are several Epson printers that utilize resistant, lightfast, or archival. There are actually more than the two that you mentioned that have inks that last longer than the standard inks.

Alyona
11-05-2002, 11:46 PM
Oh, my poor LeAnne! :(
You too :crying: ?
I had sinus surgery :crying: in December 2000 and since then I have severe migraine every day (yes, every day!). My deck and night table covered with different pills. And I feel like drug addict these days. I am drawing between headaches attacks and visits to doctor. Today I was dead all day long and visited doctor too. He prescribed me new pills - doesn't help.
I so-o-o-o-o understand you! Feel better please; I know your misery so well!
And thanks for your work on WC and replies!:)

Elankat
11-06-2002, 12:24 AM
Thanks for the kind words. Mine are allergy induced. I have mold allergies and Fall and Spring get really nasty for me. I pop pain meds, decongestants, and antihistimines like they are candy.

It's been raining here for about a week straight, so the mold counts are up and the last two days have been pretty unpleasant. The best I can manage is getting the headache to a dull throb.

It's hard to draw with them. When they are really bad, the only solution is crawling in bed. So, I feel for you. I only have to live with them sporadically. I don't think I could handle it on a daily basis like you are!

Alyona
11-06-2002, 12:49 AM
Hey LeAnne, move to California!
We have high taxes but doesn't rain here very often!:D
I can show you around only if you will drive:D !
Feel better LeAnne!

BTW, just ordered MIS ink and cleaning cartridges.
I promise to tell about results as soon as I will test it!

gemmag
11-06-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by arlene
gemma, is your epson pigment or dye based?

Hey Arlene, I guess I should have clarified, I have an HP 1220cse printer and I've tried the epson paper in it, but found I liked the papers I listed better. From what I've been reading in this thread it sounds like the HP printer is much more forgiving with what type of paper you use. I have been getting really high quality prints with my HP, in fact, my framer says she thinks it's almost as good as the Giclee' prints. The other thing I really like about the HP is the printing heads are in the ink cartridges so you don't have to worry about heads glogging, you replace them when you change the ink. The cartridges are bit more pricey but to me it's worth it to not have that headache with the heads. I was able to print hundreds of prints and notecards with the one cartridge.

Take Care,
Gemma

frankie
11-06-2002, 09:42 PM
I suggest taking a look through your google search engine and look up the reports by "Flaar". These people have done some intensive research into the large format printing arena, and the use of dyes and archival inks. I trust these reports as being factual,,,,,good luck......frankie :D

Alyona
11-06-2002, 09:48 PM
Thanks frankie!
I already have report from them.
Great company!:D