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m_a_r_t_i_n
03-24-2001, 01:32 AM
This is a horse and her foal done on panel mounted 180gsm cartridge, done with pencils 4h and hb and finished with an oil glaze for age ehhancment. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Mar-2001/horses.jpg" border=0>


[This message has been edited by m_a_r_t_i_n (edited March 24, 2001).]

Crias
03-24-2001, 01:57 AM
Hi there,

Great start! I really like the background effect of this drawing/painting, and how the colors blend together. You've created a neat texture on both horses.

I hope you don't mind my comments, but there are some anatomical "flaws" that I see in the drawing, especially with the mare. Her eye is too small, and the skin under her eye seems too thick. The ears are also slightly too thin. Also the line from throatlatch jaw (cheekbone area) looks to have an angle in it...usually this is a smooth curve. I also read her as being a little too thick across her muzzle, just above where her chin area.

The foal looks to have kind of a short, thick neck and the line from back to croup is usually a bit more sloping...There is also something quite "mature" about the foals head, but I can't pinpoint what. Perhaps it is due to the thickness of the neck. It is difficult for me to tell how old this foal is suposed to be.

I tinkered with the drawing a bit in photoshop. Please let me know if you would like to see what I did.



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Cathy Sheeter
Sheeter Zoo Crew Animal Art
www.geocities.com/sheeter_zoo_crew/

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-24-2001, 02:06 AM
Is there anything at all right with it http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif lol
Animals are not really my subject, I am most used to people, and to be honest I am never really too concerned with exact anatomical correctness anyway, infact I deliberately alter anatomy as it tends to look better and if I don't it can tend to look too much like a photograph which I hate.
I would however love to see what you did with this in photoshop, any improvement you can make is much appreciated http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by m_a_r_t_i_n (edited March 24, 2001).]

Crias
03-24-2001, 02:30 AM
I'm sorry...I think I came across as more critical than intended. I did make some minor changes in photoshop...though I am really bad with photoshop (still learning). Overall you have a great work started here and the style/technique is awesome! I think the thing that bothers me the most is the mare's eye. Everything else is just little nit-picky things. I'm sorry if I came across wrong. Please accept my appology.

Sorry I am so bad with photoshop, so the shading is not good, but you might be able to see some of the areas that I was talking about. I also am not photoshop litterate enough to extend the foals neck. If you like it great, if not no prob.

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Mar-2001/horses2.jpg" border=0>



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Cathy Sheeter
Sheeter Zoo Crew Animal Art
www.geocities.com/sheeter_zoo_crew/

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-24-2001, 02:40 AM
I can't see any difference on this, could you post it at the original size with pointers indicating what you have done http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif
Sorry to put you to all this trouble, and btw no offence taken with the critique, I am interested in honest opinion. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Crias
03-24-2001, 02:56 AM
Sorry...I didn't save this in full size.

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Mar-2001/horses2copy.jpg" border=0>



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Cathy Sheeter
Sheeter Zoo Crew Animal Art
www.geocities.com/sheeter_zoo_crew/

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-24-2001, 03:17 AM
I see what you mean now, I'm not familiar with horse anatomy so I was unsure what you were talking about earlier.
I like the mare as it is even with it's anatomical flaws, but you are right about the foal, what you have done is much improvement, I thank you for the time you have taken to point these things out to me, I don't intend on doing anymore horse portraits, I'll be sticking with people portraits which is what I enjoy most, but it was fun to try something different for a change http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Roan
03-24-2001, 03:25 AM
I agree with Crias corrections, however the cheekbone on the mare still bothers me and I'd make the eye a little bigger still -- unless the mare is pig-eyed or something. The cheekbone doesn't look like a cheekbone -- it looks like muscle rather than a bone. Right now it blends in hard with the throatlatch and the eye area and doesn't protrude outwards. It almost looks as though there is a muscle running underneath it or something. I'd lighten the shading a tad and blend that "muscle" in with the rest of it so that it's a continuous arc.

I think the foal's eye is too small as well. That might be what is giving it an "old" look.

Just my 2 cents.

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">"Bu shoilleir a dhreach, 's bu luath
Shiubhal: Sith-fada b'e ainm." --</FONT c>
<FONT size="1">"Shining his coat, and speedy
His pace -- Si-Fada his name."
Si-Fada = "long pace"</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;--- supply resources for pastelists!

Roan
03-24-2001, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by m_a_r_t_i_n:
. . .I like the mare as it is even with it's anatomical flaws, but you are right about the foal, what you have done is much improvement. . .

Bah, this is a damn good portrait and overall I agree with Crias' assement that the ONLY real thing that is "wrong" with this is the mare's eye. The foal can stand on his own (no pun intended), it's the mare's eye that detracts from the overall picture.

Personally, I'd like to see more horsies from you, Martin :P

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">"Bu shoilleir a dhreach, 's bu luath
Shiubhal: Sith-fada b'e ainm." --</FONT c>
<FONT size="1">"Shining his coat, and speedy
His pace -- Si-Fada his name."
Si-Fada = "long pace"</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;--- supply resources for pastelists!

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-24-2001, 04:20 AM
Thanks Roan, but figure and portraiture is where my heart lies, besides I didn't realise that horse portraiture was so strict with regard anatomy, I think in that respect it is probably greatly more difficult than figure painting, I think I will leave it to the experts.
I am dreading the day I have to paint a nude on horseback http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

animal
03-24-2001, 09:44 AM
Martin,

Thanks for posting this. I have drawn horses before from an art instruction books but have started drawing horses even more realistically recently. I agree with Roan and Crias but I like the textures you have achieved with the pencils. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

sajemak
03-24-2001, 10:19 AM
I don't know ANYTHING about horses and anatomy, but I did want to say that I love the picture. I especially like they way they look like velvet!

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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-24-2001, 10:25 AM
Thanks for your comments http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif
Bye the way I was thinking, doesn't the anatomy of a horse vary breed to breed?, like the length of neck or size of eyes and stuff?, couldn't this just be a new type of breed? http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Roan
03-24-2001, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by m_a_r_t_i_n:
Thanks Roan, but figure and portraiture is where my heart lies, besides I didn't realise that horse portraiture was so strict with regard anatomy, I think in that respect it is probably greatly more difficult than figure painting, I think I will leave it to the experts.
I am dreading the day I have to paint a nude on horseback http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

No, it's not more strict, Martin, it's the same as figure painting and just as hard. The BIG difference between the two is that human subjects are easy to find -- you are one yourself -- and you can learn by using your own body. You're familar with it and you know how it works.

Horse subjects are not easy to find and the body is alien. When you spend a lot of time around horses, as most of us obviously have, you get to know a horse as well as your own body. It becomes a second nature type of thing. Even if the horse person isn't an artist, they will know if it's right or not.

As an example, suppose you painted a portrait where the eyes did not fit in with the imaginary line to the mouth -- they too wide apart. Almost everyone in critiques would catch it because it's a person and the rules are well known. If you did the same with a horse, only those who know horses or has studied them would notice.

See what I mean? You just have to learn what the "rules" are :P

You've got equine talent and a great technique, no doubt about it, Martin! This portrait is great, seriously. You just happened to post it at a time when we have a lot of horsie types around.

Hugs!

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">"Bu shoilleir a dhreach, 's bu luath
Shiubhal: Sith-fada b'e ainm." --</FONT c>
<FONT size="1">"Shining his coat, and speedy
His pace -- Si-Fada his name."
Si-Fada = "long pace"</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;--- supply resources for pastelists!

Roan
03-24-2001, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by m_a_r_t_i_n:
Bye the way I was thinking, doesn't the anatomy of a horse vary breed to breed?, like the length of neck or size of eyes and stuff?, couldn't this just be a new type of breed? http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Yes it does, but not only are the things we've pointed out common to all breeds, but we can tell what 'breed' this would fit into just by looking at your drawing. It's obviously a thoroughbred-type horse. There are lots of breeds that fit into that category -- standardbreds do tend to have a piggy eye, but the foal doesn't look like a standardbred.

Now, if you had listed a breed you would have gotten more comments :P

Quit posting while I'm posting, darn you! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">"Bu shoilleir a dhreach, 's bu luath
Shiubhal: Sith-fada b'e ainm." --</FONT c>
<FONT size="1">"Shining his coat, and speedy
His pace -- Si-Fada his name."
Si-Fada = "long pace"</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <--- supply resources for pastelists!

[This message has been edited by Roan (edited March 24, 2001).]

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-24-2001, 10:31 AM
appologies roan http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Roan
03-24-2001, 02:53 PM
Shirl said what I was trying to say, only much better, of course :P


Now, quit with the flared nostrils, woman! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">"Bu shoilleir a dhreach, 's bu luath
Shiubhal: Sith-fada b'e ainm." --</FONT c>
<FONT size="1">"Shining his coat, and speedy
His pace -- Si-Fada his name."
Si-Fada = "long pace"</FONT s>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;--- supply resources for pastelists!

Shirl
03-24-2001, 03:35 PM
Well now I did. I did not add that comment under Jerry's "equestrian" pic http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif now did I....

Shirl (so tempting tho...)

pgetha
03-24-2001, 06:09 PM
Funny, I do horses for a living and feel the same way about people portraits! I'd rather do a horse any day though I think I can do acceptabl people also. I think you did a wonderful job on this portait and the detail is really good. I do agree with the others' assessments of the anatomy issues but it still is very good. Horse anatomy is difficult, even for seasoned artists and it helps to have some hands on experience with horses.

I think it is great that you try a different subject. It is refreshing. Critiques can be brutal sometimes but they are meant to be constructive. You obviously have a good grasp of the medium and could probably draw anything that you set your mind to so keep it up. I think it is ironic that folks who paint/draw animals really have a tough time doing people and just the opposit is true for those who do people.
Pat

GC
03-24-2001, 11:48 PM
Hi Martin,

Don't feel to bad. I also agree with the original anatomical corrections, Have spend many years around Horses.
If you had it anatomical correct, your painting would be a msterppiece, because I really like your approach with the aging coloration and the parchment feel of it all.

I did a ship recently and I don't know a thing about ships.
I received tons of email by maritime people correcting me in every way. Wrong rigging... wrong masts. I called a schooner, oh boy you should have read one e-mail giving me a 3 page differentiation explanation about the different types of ships.
Oh well I thought... so much for ships.

Ginette

Shirl
03-25-2001, 12:56 AM
Okay, I also agree with the corrections, but goodness, great first try!!! If you did this well not knowing horses at all, just think what the future will be--that is, if you want a future in horses LOL.

Shirl (needs flared nostrils... http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-25-2001, 07:34 AM
Very funny GC http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif lol
Ships are another toughy, havn't tried one yet, doubt I'll bother now hearing your tragic experience http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

ironhorse
03-25-2001, 07:56 AM
I think it's a great start too. The eyes are always a focal point in horses. So must be treated with care. I've done many a portrait where the horses eyes were small, but if drawn the actual size the owners think it's too small. Horse people are very picky.

One point I'd like to bring up is to make sure not to plagerize photos out of magazines. I know this image was in a magazine in the recent past. If you intend to sell this image make sure to obtain the photographers permission.

This should actually be done before you start any piece. But I'm guessing your just using it to learn with.

Don't be discouraged horses can be tough. I always have a hard time wiht legs. And find people a even bigger challange :-0

ironhorse www.kodiakmet.com/ironhorse (http://www.kodiakmet.com/ironhorse)

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-25-2001, 09:32 AM
Thanks ironhorse for your comments http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif
I did this drawing about 4 years ago when I was first learning to draw, it's not the greatest rendering and I honestly can't remember where I got the source imagery, but good points, I have no intention of selling this, just as I have no intention of selling any of my early or practice pieces. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

tammy
03-25-2001, 04:06 PM
I think that it's wonderful and with the corrections ...well it'll be great!

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Don't worry, its gonna be all right....
Tammy's Home for Artists (http://tammy.artistnation.com)

dodger
03-25-2001, 10:32 PM
Martin, it is a great piece, but these guys REALLY know their horses! (Roan, you break me up! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif )
Don't let it scare you off, though...try hanging out with some equines, & do some sketching. You might grow to love the sound of munching grass & whisking tail.
Love the pencil/oil effect.

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Judy

m_a_r_t_i_n
03-26-2001, 11:32 PM
Thanks tammy and dodger for you comments http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Mar-2001/crazy_mouse.gif" border=0>