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View Full Version : Upgrading from student quality paint - questions


kiwicockatoo
10-05-2002, 02:39 PM
Now that I'm starting to get commissions, I wonder if I should be upgrading to artist quality paint. Right now I'm using winton, and I'm a bit unhappy with some of the paints, especially some of the colors are extremely transparent and seem a bit short on pigment. I want to provide the best quality I can to my customers.

First of all, in your opinion, is there a very great difference in student and artist quality? If I try a new brand, can I mix it with my wintons safely?

Which pigment would you say I would notice the most dramatic difference?

And finally, for the professionals out there, what brands are you using?

Thanks!
Brenda

JamieWG
10-05-2002, 02:54 PM
Dear Brenda,

I was so frustrated by the lack of pigment in the Winton (and other student quality) paints that I sold them all on Ebay almost as soon as I bought them, and upgraded my paints. It was the best thing I could have done. I paint very thin, and as soon as you add a thinner to the Wintons, the color is gone and there's no covering power. Sure you could mix them with artist quality paints, but I don't know why you'd want to do that. I justified the switch because it wasn't enjoyable for me to struggle with the medium. It stopped being fun. My time is too valuable to waste on bad supplies!
Jamie

TedB
10-05-2002, 03:12 PM
go to the left top of this page - COMMUNITY......

scroll down to PRODUCT REVIEW.....

then read what various members have stated about specific paint brands.

artbabe21
10-05-2002, 04:39 PM
I know Luis extols the virtues of Winton........Wayne uses it as well. I think it's more for the painter who uses a LOT of paint, rather than one who paints thinly. I think if you are doing commissions you should be providing the best quality paints, not student quality, that's my personal opinion :) .......I talked to an artist who sells at our local gallery who paints VERY thickly and he told me he used Winton, and I believe it's more common then we have any idea...

JustjoGA
10-05-2002, 04:43 PM
I will just restate the mantra I've heard from many in this forum (and others) ... forget the student grade... buy the BEST you can afford!! You will be happier in the long run, and your customers will know you used better quality paint!

kiwicockatoo
10-05-2002, 07:03 PM
Ted - I read the reviews, I'm still not sure how the student quality compares to the artist quality. A lot of people here do swear by winton! I really do believe if someone buys a painting from me, they deserve the best in quality.

Originally posted by JamieWG
Dear Brenda,
I was so frustrated by the lack of pigment in the Winton (and other student quality) paints that I sold them all on Ebay almost as soon as I bought them, and upgraded my paints. It was the best thing I could have done. I paint very thin, and as soon as you add a thinner to the Wintons, the color is gone and there's no covering power. Sure you could mix them with artist quality paints, but I don't know why you'd want to do that. I justified the switch because it wasn't enjoyable for me to struggle with the medium. It stopped being fun. My time is too valuable to waste on bad supplies!
Jamie

Jamie, that's exactly how I feel. With my style, my paints are acting more like water colors than oil paint. I thought oils were supposed to be relatively opaque.

Still, is there a real difference, or is it my painting style that's to blame? Yeah, I know, buy one and try already....

nam26b
10-05-2002, 07:30 PM
I'm still not sure how the student quality compares to the artist quality.


I have Winton and W&N "artist quality" paints. I purposefully bought several pigments of both types (Cobalt blue and others...staying away from the 'hue' pigments, of course) and frankly, I can tell little difference. The Winton is a bit oilier and no doubt there is less pigment, but it's really not easy to tell when working with both types at the same time. They seem practically identical.

Weter this means that Winton is better than most student grade paint, or that the artist quality is not as good as some others, I don't claim to know. Just my experience after testing several pigments several ways.

My guess is they sell nearly the same product for 200%-300% more when packaged in the tube that reads "artist quality". I have never seen W&N on any professional artist's list of the best paints available, though, so I'm not really sure where it stands in quality compared to other brands, but the 2 lines of W&N seem quite alike.

Nathan


P.S. I would certainly buy the best paint available were I going to sell some work or embark on a comission....the client would have to buy me some Old Holland or similar!


Nathan

Wayne Gaudon
10-05-2002, 09:06 PM
kiwicockatoo
I use Winton because I am only doing studies and an occasional painting. Also, when I started using them I was doing more knife work than brush. Now I am doing more brush work than knife and I am thinking of buying a few tubes of better quality paints to give it a shot.

Thick paint does mean you can use cheaper paint and thin paint means you should use good quality paint. I've read it and I believe it. I've also looked at the price of moving on up and it's big time.

I have used Grumbracher artist grade and Winton Artist grade and now use Winton student grade .. of the three I didn't see enough of a difference to warrant any desire to use the artist grade over the student grade. That said, now, using the brush I can see that Winton are very stiff in comparison to let's say Van Gogh so for the brush, Van Gogh seem to be the better paint when it comes to spreading. As for color and tinting, etc. I haven't done enough with both to really compare.

I will try Rembrant next and see if I can see a noticeable difference. Probably a few tubes and do a few paintings with a limited pallet to see how they handle and how far they stretch. I do beleive the only way you will know is to evaluate it for yourself. However, until I start selling for 4 figures I don't think I'll be trying any of the top of the line paints. It's simple economics . I can't afford to.

Later,

TedB
10-06-2002, 12:49 AM
i guess it would be difficult for someone trying to interpret the product information. sorry for sending you on a wild chase.

i guess one has to think about economics. have you checked out the prices for UTRECHT paint ? the paint is rather good ! lots swear by it !

personally i dislike the winsor newton products, preferring handmade paints or old holland.....but, i do have some UTRECHT paint that i like. prices are very good.....a sale is going on now, i believe.

surely all the comments above will be helpful in your decision.

ted

scottb
10-06-2002, 12:52 AM
As was pointed out earlier in this thread, this is why we wrote the new product review system. :) Of course, as it is brand new, there aren't a lot of reviews in there yet.

I again encourage those of you who have experience with certain brands of paints to get in there and enter your opinions and ratings. The more reviews we accumulate, the more valuable this tool will be as a resource for all. :)

Again, not all categories are open (by far), but oil paints are. :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/Products

Cheers.
Scott

David Dowbyhuz
10-06-2002, 02:23 PM
I am notoriously frugal (cheap) with my paint-budget. I've used economical paints my entire "life" and have yet to be unhappy with the paint. (Unhappy with me is another matter! ;) )

I buy mid-range brushes, and again, have rarely been dis-satisified.

I remember not long ago going to the art store to restock the color rose dore (a wonderful color!). My last tube had cost $5.95 I seemed to recall, so when I picked up one for "$6.35" I was not outraged. Off to the cash I went. The clerk picked up the tube, and then looked at me. "You sure you want this?", he asked. Puzzled, I asked "Why, is there something wrong with it?". "No", he replied, "It's just you know this tube is $63.50, right?" "WHAT? Gimme that", I said. Sure enough, it was $63.50!

Needless to say, it went back on the shelf, and I found a tube of the $5.95 sort. I can't for the life of me reconcile paying over 10 times as much for a color. I don't care how good it is!

Titanium
10-06-2002, 03:01 PM
WOW !!
Iconoclast,being the cheap person I am the
$63.50 really floored me.
________________________

If you hand mull,then high pigment load will
make sense.Mars Red [ cold ] covers opaquely
with a whisper of a stroke.Just pigment and
oil.

Commercial stuff has fillers, some more some
less.This is why it is difficult to see the difference.
Only hand mulling against commercial would
probably be noticeable.

This is why I can opaquely cover a canvas with
paper thin coats and make no dent in the tube.
Cheapness reigns.
Titanium

JamieWG
10-06-2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by kiwicockatoo
Jamie, that's exactly how I feel. With my style, my paints are acting more like water colors than oil paint. I thought oils were supposed to be relatively opaque.

Still, is there a real difference, or is it my painting style that's to blame? Yeah, I know, buy one and try already....

Dear Brenda,

You're in exactly the same place I was at. I was trying and trying to build up in thin layers and _nothing_ was happening! I then tested the paints by taking a plain sheet of canvas paper and painting squares of different colors with different brands/qualities of paints. I think I tested Wintons, Grumbacher pre-tested, Rembrandt and Winsor Newton Artist....maybe a couple of others too. I dipped my brush in turp, wiped off the excess on the side of the container, took some paint on the brush, and painted a square. The Wintons covered like watercolor, only worse! All the others I tested fared better than the Wintons did; they were the worst at covering the white. Every square painted with a Winton color was streaky. That was enough evidence for me!

I talked to a very good artist and explained my predicament. I told him that I'd been planning to stick with the Wintons until I "graduated" from them. He looked at me and laughed and said,
"You just did!"

FWIW, upgrading the paints didn't cost me much. I bought lots of artist quality paints on Ebay for just a little more than I paid in a store for the Wintons. And I sold my Winton paints there for a good price! :-)

Brenda, I figure that I don't paint a whole lot---not nearly as much as I'd like to, and because I paint in thin layers, I don't go through a whole lot of paint anyway. So, it's not really costing me that much to paint with the artist quality paints. Life is too short to be frustrated by paint quality!

FWIW, I noticed a similar difference in watercolors between Winsor Newton's Cotman and the WN Artist line. The Van Gogh student grade colors, made by Talens, were far better than the Cotman student grade; neither rivaled the WN Artist colors, but the Van Gogh's were quite good, and certainly much better than what I expected, at a similar price to the Cotmans.

Jamie

Wes Hyde
10-06-2002, 03:58 PM
I use Winsor & Newton Artist Oil Colours, and am very satisfied with them. I've tried the Winton and find a great amount of difference in the two. The Wintons are more like spreading tar, and they clump up. When spreading them thinly, they dissipate, leaving blank spots where your brush stokes hit multiple times. I found this most evident with the raw sienna.

One word of caution using professional grade paints: read the labels; many of these paints contain lead/soluble lead & cobalt/soluble cobalt. Take proper precautions when using paints with these ingredients, and enjoy.

Wes

PS. I recently tried Grumbacher's so-called professional grade--they had a color W&N doesn't make--and found it to be garbage. The paint had pockets of almost solid pigment which were dry and coarse.

Fidget
10-06-2002, 07:12 PM
Does anyone use Pebeo?

My started kit was supplied with this brand.
And I still prefer them.
They tend to be more oily than some. But I like that.
Not too expensive. But not easily found at many locations.
And I've never seen them in larger tubes than 80ml
Other than their whites.

If I am looking for thicker paint, I would use Winsor & Newton.
They are easier to find and come in bigger tubes.
Well priced too.

Fidget

kiwicockatoo
10-06-2002, 07:54 PM
Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply to this. You've given me lots of food for thought.

I can't say that I would ever consider paint that is $63.50 worth the money. That's really steep!

As for the wintons - the consensus seems to be that they are great if you paint thickly! Wayne, you're a great example - I always drool over your colors and I had no idea you used wintons! Plus if you do paint thickly, cost is certainly a consideration.

Jamie and Wes, you're describing exactly how my paints are behaving. I'd rather paint than fight my paints.

Thanks again,
Brenda

PS Scott the product review system is great - the more people that reveiw products the better it will get.

sonjalee
10-07-2002, 12:58 AM
I am at the same stage as you are now as to wondering about the student grade and the artist grade paints. I am happy with the paints that I am using now, but me just being me I like to experiment.

So I went to ebay a searching....
There is the Marie's professional grade paints, GrumMAX Oils that I won and am going to test out. I also won a bid for 53 Daler Rowley Georgian Oil Paint tubes (which is the brand I started off using, got them at a 1/4 of the retail cost)

I think I am going to have some fun experimenting with many new colors.

Sonja

Verdaccio
10-07-2002, 10:35 AM
Old Holland
Rembrandt
M Graham
Gamblin
Utrecht

These are the companies that I choose to buy paints from. Within the brands, they are all very good paints and with the exception of OH, are almost indistinguishable. OH paints are very heavily pigmented, a little higher quality, and I just love them, but they can be pricey.

Throw your tubes of Winton away! Bad materials just make painting even harder than it already is. Use good paint, good brushes (www.trekell.com), and good surfaces and you won't be further hampered by bad materials.

Utrecht is a good entre into professional grade paint. They are pretty high quality and the prices are great. Splurge on a tube of OH someday and you will be hard pressed to go back.

One other thing: Compare the weight of brands in similar colors. Buy the heavier tube. The weight in paint comes from pigment and oil. A tube of Winton Raw Umber weighs about 1/2 of what a comparable tube of any of the above brands will weigh. That is Alumuna Sterate, a paint extender or filler. It's very light, very cheap and the more you put into your paint, the worse it performs.

Buy good paint.

nam26b
10-07-2002, 12:00 PM
wow, what a resounding denunciation of winton (whole theread, not just Verd.). In reality, I have considered W&N artist quality to be 'the good stuff' in my comparison, but it looks like that may not be a good assessment.

They are the only two types of paint I have ever used, so I can't comment on their quality w/ respect to other brands, but it looks like I mustbe missing out. I like them well enough, but if a guy grew up eating hostess apple pies, he'd be oblivious when I told him how good my mother-in-law's are (they're the best I've ever tasted by a HUGE margin).

Myabe I'll visit a site where I can find some cheap tubes of the brands mentioned.....anyone know of some online sales....and/or if any of the brands are especially slow drying (I'm looking or some paint I can leave for a day or two before it dries)?

Anyway, I started painting in Jan., and was sepecially careful in the beginning not to leave anything close to 'advice' on the forum. I will certainly be more mindful of my own limited perspective in the future.

Sincere thanks for the contributions of those who know,

Nathan

Wes Hyde
10-07-2002, 12:09 PM
http://www.misterart.com/index.cfm

artbabe21
10-07-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by nam26b
..anyone know of some online sales....and/or if any of the brands are especially slow drying (I'm looking or some paint I can leave for a day or two before it dries)?


Nathan,
Luis will disagree with Winton whipped for sure, he loves that stuff... I found it like cement to spread compared to say Grumbacher, Rembrandt, Da Vinci I've had for years. There IS a difference, I guess you get what you pay for.

I know Jerrys & ASW have had back to school sales which am not sure how long they lasted. Sign up for their catalog online & see, but in the future you'll get the sale flyers. I think ASW is a little cheaper then Jerrys, owned by same company I believe.

You might try walnut oil with your wintons {I have artists grade W&N which I think are gritty & thick} it's not toxic & extends drying time, plus you can clean your brushes with it!:)

nam26b
10-07-2002, 04:04 PM
I'm not sure if this proves anything, but I went to the university bookstore and found some M. Graham oil colors....they weren't real cheap, but they were reasonable, especially considering I get no-interest financing till the end of the school year (I.E. they're free for now).

Anyway, here are two strips of raw umber......

the graham is on top. From Right to Left, what you see is a blob of straight tube paint, then another, thinner blob f straight paint applied with a pallette knife, then a strip of straight tube paint, as close as possible in quantity of paint, spread as far as it would go, then a blob of paint mixed with 3 drops of medium each, then a bit of this mixture spread as far as it would go.

The picture was taken in natural light through the sliding door. It looks like they spread about the same distance, though the M. Graham does have a bit richer tone (more pigment no doubt).

Anyway, draw your own conclusions, I tried to be as exact as possible with th eamount of medium and other parameters.

The graham was less sticky and thinned more with the medium in it.

Nathan

Wes Hyde
10-07-2002, 04:07 PM
M. Graham uses walnut oil in some of their products. Is it listed on your label there, Nathan?

Wes

nam26b
10-07-2002, 04:13 PM
Wes,

Actually, they use it exclusively. That's one of the reasons I decided to try graham...it's supposed to dry more slowly.

Nathan

Wes Hyde
10-07-2002, 04:15 PM
Ah! This, I did not know. Thanks, Nathan.

bschuetz
10-07-2002, 06:18 PM
I use a variety of different kinds of paints. I do however always purchase "artists grade". If you watch the label, the pigments they use are the same as "student grade". The difference in the paints are the amount of pigments in the tube. (and sometimes the binder). I do sometimes purchase less expensive tubes of paint (when money is low) and I always use the paint up relatively quickly. As with the professional paints. a little bit goes a long way.

walden
10-10-2002, 11:53 AM
I paint rather thinly, and I have become unhappy with my Winton transparent pigments (the opaque ones seem to be ok)-- namely, ultramarine & perm. alizarin. So, I've been testing. I tried Utrecht ultramarine & really liked it in comparison-- I'm also going to try W&N artists grade. I like Utrecht & W&N because I paint a LOT, and most of the pigments I use are available in large tubes in both brands. For the record, I also analyzed W&N and Utrecht on a cost per ounce basis for both brands, both large & small tubes. The Utrecht is consistently less expensive, although often not by much, but in both brands, the large tubes, where available, are significantly less expensive than the small ones.

kiwicockatoo
10-10-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by bschuetz
If you watch the label, the pigments they use are the same as "student grade". The difference in the paints are the amount of pigments in the tube. (and sometimes the binder).

Thanks, I did not realize that. I just assume cheaper paint = cheaper pigments. If the more expensive paints use MORE pigment, that would explain to me how my wintons are acting. Walden - I find ultramarine and alizarin wintons behave just like watercolors when applied thinly.

Wayne Gaudon
10-11-2002, 10:08 AM
I bought some Rembrant yesterday and will check them out next week ... should be interesting .. company this weekend so probably won't get to doing a lot of painting .. maybe Sunday .. and I have a few hours this afternoon but I don't want to be rushed when I test drive ..

Later.

Wayne Gaudon
10-12-2002, 10:14 AM
Had 5 minuites so I though I would try this . Two Ultar Blues .. I used a number number 1 flat for the Rembrandt and a #3 for the Winton. I had to load the brush twice with Winton to get the same penetration even with the fact I used a larger brush. These are not brush strokes, they are scrubbed into the canvas.

The Rembrandt was a whole lot easier to appy as it went in with little need to really apply a lot of pressure while the Winton took effort and a whole lot more paint. I also like the color of the Rembrandt as it is more blue and not as blackish in appearance.

Later,

PS .. I know the Winto swatch is larger but that's because I had to load the brush twice to cover the similar area so it didn't take twice the paint but it did take more and an extra effor of loading the brush a second time .. Waste is more of a concern than use.

JamieWG
10-12-2002, 01:16 PM
Wow, Wayne, the Rembrandt is so much nicer! I have the Rembrandt Ultramarine Light and Rembrandt Ultramarine Deep and Winsor Newton Artist's French Ultramarine, but the cap on the tube of Remb. Light wouldn't come off, so I couldn't test that one. :-(

Here's the sample of the Rembrandt Ultramarine Deep, but I've got to say that the paint in person is beautifully luminous. I'm not sure how that will translate on the computer screen. This is my second test run of this color and I loved it both times.

JamieWG
10-12-2002, 01:19 PM
Oops...image was too big when I tried to post it. Here's the Winsor Newton Artist's Ultramarine, also not done justice by a photo!

artbabe21
10-12-2002, 01:23 PM
Jamie...hold the tube with the cap under the faucet w/real warm water running and then take a pliers and it should come open easily!
I have paints 25 years old I open this way...:)

JamieWG
10-12-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
Jamie...hold the tube with the cap under the faucet w/real warm water running and then take a pliers and it should come open easily!
I have paints 25 years old I open this way...:)

Hi Cathleen.

I did try that, but the tube itself twisted and now I'm afraid the whole thing is going to split open if it twists any more. Last night I held a match to the cap...didn't work. In the end, I nearly melted the darn thing. $)%#$(%$&!!! Maybe I should go try again with the pliers and if it doesn't work and the tube splits open, well......I can't use it anyway if I can't get it open!

Many thanks,
Jamie

nam26b
10-12-2002, 09:14 PM
Just got some m. graham paint, so thought I'd put up a shot of graham ultramarine. Like Jamie, I'm sure the picture won't do it justice. I shot it at night under a halogen light (orangeish, the opposite of the color I'm shooting....if it turns out too bad I might add a shot of it in natural light).

It's beautiful, and you can spread it ridiculously thin and still get good color.

Done w/ #4 filbert and 2 drops of walnut oil.

Nathan

artbabe21
10-12-2002, 10:47 PM
Nathan.....I take it you are enjoying your new Graham paints?

Tell us what you think?

JamieWG
10-12-2002, 10:54 PM
Hi Nathan.

Isn't it great to paint with good materials? One of the things I learned yesterday was that all the "artist quality" paints are so very much better than the student grades, and a little goes a long way. I drooled over so many colors that I spent today wiping down the counters in my studio. ;-) I tested five or six brands and all of them were delicious.

Jamie

Luis Guerreiro
10-13-2002, 01:10 AM
Sorry Guys,

I have read the thread and some of the posts are completely ridiculous.

W&N WINTON and any other economy oil paints are designed to perform the way they do. Among low-cost paints, WINTON still is the best brand.

Comparing WINTON to REMBRANDT is an unforgivable mistake. Rembrandt is Talens professional grade. How is it possible to compare a professional range against an economy range?

Then I read someone saying in a very disappointed way that WINTON Blue Ultramarine and Alizariin Crimson "just act like watercolours and look very transparent"... FOR GOD SAKE! Ultramarine Blue and Alizarin Crimson ARE MEANT TO BE TRANSPARENT. Nothing wrong with them!!! There are opaque, semi-opaque, semi-transparent and transparent pigments in oils.
Will someone complain of something equally clever, like Titanium White is "just too opaque"?

Also, for Jamie:

If you are so frustrated with lack of pigment, don't buy cheap. Buy the best. Don't be surprised to get chimps if you only pay peanuts.

Luis

Wes Hyde
10-13-2002, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by kiwicockatoo
First of all, in your opinion, is there a very great difference in student and artist quality?
Brenda


Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
Comparing WINTON to REMBRANDT is an unforgivable mistake. Rembrandt is Talens professional grade. How is it possible to compare a professional range against an economy range?

Personally, I believe Brenda asked a legitimate question, and recieved--primarily--what she asked for.

Wes

nam26b
10-13-2002, 03:24 AM
Cathleen:

Yes, as Luis mentions, the graham paints are obviously much nicer than winton.

Luis:

I agree that pitting winton against artist quality paint is like running 0-60 tests with a chevette against a lineup of formula one cars.

I disagree that the offense is unforgivable.....we're artists here, not physicists.....except for those of us trying to be both.

I think the "tests" with the swatches of paint should probably be termed "comparison tests" or something as the only purpose is to see how the different paints look. That's the only reason I posted the picture of the graham ultramarine....I wanted to see how it looked in comparison to the other brands.

Nathan

JamieWG
10-13-2002, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro

Comparing WINTON to REMBRANDT is an unforgivable mistake. Rembrandt is Talens professional grade. How is it possible to compare a professional range against an economy range?

Also, for Jamie:

If you are so frustrated with lack of pigment, don't buy cheap. Buy the best. Don't be surprised to get chimps if you only pay peanuts.

Luis

Dear Luis,

If somebody's painting with Wintons and doesn't know if it will be worth it for them to switch to a professional grade, seeing how the paints perform side by side is certainly a way to find out!

As for me, I did that side-by-side test awhile ago and don't have any student grade paints here to test (anymore). My WN and other tests the other day were done with all "professional" grade paints.

Best wishes,
Jamie

JamieWG
10-13-2002, 07:09 AM
P.S. Luis, what paints do you use?

Jamie

Luis Guerreiro
10-13-2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by artbabe21


Nathan,
Luis will disagree with Winton whipped for sure, he loves that stuff... I found it like cement to spread compared to say Grumbacher, Rembrandt, Da Vinci I've had for years. There IS a difference, I guess you get what you pay for.

Hi Cathleen,

Yes. I disagree. Deeply!
Going to the Artshop, buying low grade paint and then come here and have the snobbery to trash WINTON down, is a bit like beating a defenceless civilian to death. Ugly stuff.
Of course WINTON doesn't offer the performance of a high-grade paint, for example Old Holland. Well, that's hardly a surprise. It just is not meant to.
Compared to its DIRECT COMPETITORS (that is paints in the same grade as Winton - the CORRECT way to compare!!!), WINTON is by far the best of them all. No point arguing on this one. Just check WINTON against Lukas Basics, against Amsterdam, against others. Even against mid-range grades such as Lukas Studio, because WINTON performs better, offers better covering power.
Of all low cost grades, WINTON is the best one again, from a manufacturing stand point. It is thoroughly tested to the highest standards by Winsor & Newton (and no! this is not silly publicity, it is true, I have seen it with my own eyes at their factory in the United Kingdom).
And...
Where there is no money to buy high cost paint, WINTON is the choice, not of students, but of Professional Artists, WORLDWIDE. If you go to countries where it is not possible to buy high grade, WINTON has provided their best and most reliable choice, because it is made using the same linseed oils and ground in the very same way as high grade quality paint.
Just for the your information, a lot of paintings we all admire worldwide were made using WINTON. I daresay that blaming the tools for one's lack of skill is a not-so-good thing to do. WINTON can be, has been and will continue to be used for professional work in hundreds of places around the world.
I use Old Holland, W&N Artists, WINTON and others. The truth is, provided painters improve their painting skills, any paint made today is better than most paints used hundreds of years ago.
Another point to make about low cost paints is that to blame low cost on use of fillers alone (such as alumina stearate) is not entirely correct. A lot of cost cuts are the result of using replacement pigments (for example cerulean blue genuine is replaced by either a synthetic or a combination of synthetic pigments capable of reproducing the original colour as much as possible). Here is another common snobbery. Anything different from pigments considered the “real thing” is bad, cheap and not worth mentioning. Those snobs out there seem to forget that even the best paints use replacement “hues” in some cases. For example, even the very best range Ultramarine Blue IS ACTUALLY a HUE, not the real thing. Otherwise Lapis Lazuli would have to be used, at a cost of USD 2000 per ounce. Strangely enough, nobody seems to bother about using a synthetic Ultramarine Blue, even in the best Old Holland stuff.
These things need to be taken with a pinch of salt. The reality is that a bad painter will make a mess out of the best paint. A good painter will make a master-piece out of ½ dozen WINTON paint tubes. The master-piece will sell at Sotheby’s in 200 years time for tens of thousands of dollars, regardless of what paint was used. I am thinking of Picasso just now. He never used Old Holland. I believe he used Sennelier quite a lot. At least he is known to have contacted Matisse and Cezanne in order to find a brand to develop a soft oil pastel. Sennelier developed this for Picasso, out of a co-operation between the painter and Sennelier Colourmen. I don’t think Sennelier is the best paint around, do you? Do you think Picasso’s works will drop in price because of him using Sennelier paints instead of Old Holland? I am sure you will find the answer.

Regards

Luis

walden
10-13-2002, 11:24 AM
Luis, you're right and you're wrong. :) Of course, Winton to professional grade paints isn't a fair comparison-- it isn't supposed to be. There are many styles of painting and the cost/benefit calculation works very differently between them-- I believe that you paint very large pieces with a lot of impasto, whereas I paint very small pieces, rather thinly, alla prima. It's a completely different calculation as to which is better in each case. For me, the difference is maybe $100 in total paint costs over the course of a year-- for you the difference might be hundreds of dollars per month. If for my additional $100 a year I can get even a tiny improvement in my work, it will be money well spent.

Wintons have served me extremely well, and I may well continue to use certain of their paints in all of my work, and I will definitely keep them around for my experimental work. Their price/quality combination gives me the freedom to fool around & try different stuff, and to dump the result in the wastebasket if it belongs there-- yet to sell it for a nice price if it turns out well. On the other hand, when I'm painting something I know how to paint, with a clear vision, if I can spend a few pennies more on paint for even a fraction of a percent improvement in quality, that's worth it to me. Small paintings draw the viewer in close-- that fraction of a percent improvement may have a disporoportionate impact on the price I can sell that piece for.

G.L. Hoff
10-13-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
If you are so frustrated with lack of pigment, don't buy cheap. Buy the best. Don't be surprised to get chimps if you only pay peanuts.
Luis

Agreed. When I used student-grade paint, I was continually frustrated by lack of covering power in the opaques and lack of tinting power in the transparents. One tube of OH convinced me that the "economy" of buying student grade materials is a false one, for me anyway.

As to comparisons of brands and grades, I think the best way is to do what some have done in the thread: paint swatches of color next to one another on a scrap of support. The differences will be very easy to see in many cases. And I do agree about Winton being good quality at low price. I use it a bit, as well as W&N, but much prefer Doak, Dan Smith Autograph, and OH. Since good quality paint can last a long time in the tube, I don't worry too much about the cost.

(BTW, "real" ultramarine is either lapis lazuli OR the same chemical structure synthesized in the laboratory, and therefore isn't really a "hue"--if memory serves, the term hue is employed only for a substitution of a chemically different substance in the pigment. :)

Regards

artbabe21
10-13-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
Hi Cathleen,Yes. I disagree. Deeply!
Going to the Artshop, buying low grade paint and then come here and have the snobbery to trash WINTON down, is a bit like beating a defenceless civilian to death. Ugly stuff.


LUIS! I've never been a snob and YOU know that.....

saying that for me, my experience with Winton in comparison to WHAT I WAS USED TO with artist grade paints, it felt like cement,
was MY truth...like it or not

i realize it isn't designed to work as my artist grade, so this made it clear that i will stick to artist grade, as painting is enough of a challenge! :)

As for your comparison of beating a defenseless civilian....rubbish!

Luis Guerreiro
10-13-2002, 01:47 PM
Luis, you're right and you're wrong. Of course, Winton to professional grade paints isn't a fair comparison-- it isn't supposed to be. There are many styles of painting and the cost/benefit calculation works very differently between them-- I believe that you paint very large pieces with a lot of impasto, whereas I paint very small pieces, rather thinly, alla prima. It's a completely different calculation as to which is better in each case. For me, the difference is maybe $100 in total paint costs over the course of a year-- for you the difference might be hundreds of dollars per month. If for my additional $100 a year I can get even a tiny improvement in my work, it will be money well spent.

Dear Walden,

You know, I think you are 100% right. Your comments are spot on and I entirely agree with you.
I run Oils-Studio Ltd in London as you possibly know. We have a very large studio (3500 Sq. feet), a complicated budget and a lot of paint to use over a period of a financial year (11 months+2 weeks). Oil Paint budget alone for the 2002/2003 financial year will pass the USD 2000 mark. If using Old Holland alone, the budget can go up to USD 5000. The ratio price/volume is also crucial. Using W&N Artists alone is also a problem (tubes are too small) hence the need to go for larger volumes and synthetic pigment grades and then use high grade classic/traditional pigments on the top layers. Size matters also. Large panels ( 8 by 4 foot ) would consume vast amounts of expensive paint, especially in abstract work, impasto, etc… Not cost effective.
Your comments on different calculations for different types of work are absolutely correct.

Regards

Luis:)

Luis Guerreiro
10-13-2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21


LUIS! I've never been a snob and YOU know that.....

saying that for me, my experience with Winton in comparison to WHAT I WAS USED TO with artist grade paints, it felt like cement,
was MY truth...like it or not

i realize it isn't designed to work as my artist grade, so this made it clear that i will stick to artist grade, as painting is enough of a challenge! :)

As for your comparison of beating a defenseless civilian....rubbish!

Cathleen,

The "acidic" comments were actualyl not for you. I know you are not a "paint snob". Sorry I used a reply to you to comment on other postings.
In total fairness, I actually know we do agree on many points in regards to brands of paint.

As for the defenceless civilian comparison, it reminds me of another thread many months ago, when another "defenceless civilian" was badly beaten up here in the oil painting forum. That other time, Old Holland was under the spot light, and not always for good reasons. Then, as NOW, a manufacturer who produces EXCELLENT paint has been beaten up by people who more often than not, have no clue whatsoever about the extreme demands of the paint manufacturing process and who feel free to make arbitrarian comments on a particular brand without bothering to SEARCH this site for a wealth of info which would clarify a lot of their issues.

I hope this somewhat clarifies the misunderstanding about my earlier posting.

Best regards
Your friend as always

Luis :)

kiwicockatoo
10-13-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
Sorry Guys,

I have read the thread and some of the posts are completely ridiculous.

W&N WINTON and any other economy oil paints are designed to perform the way they do. Among low-cost paints, WINTON still is the best brand.

Comparing WINTON to REMBRANDT is an unforgivable mistake. Rembrandt is Talens professional grade. How is it possible to compare a professional range against an economy range?

Then I read someone saying in a very disappointed way that WINTON Blue Ultramarine and Alizariin Crimson "just act like watercolours and look very transparent"... FOR GOD SAKE! Ultramarine Blue and Alizarin Crimson ARE MEANT TO BE TRANSPARENT. Nothing wrong with them!!! There are opaque, semi-opaque, semi-transparent and transparent pigments in oils.
Will someone complain of something equally clever, like Titanium White is "just too opaque"?

Also, for Jamie:

If you are so frustrated with lack of pigment, don't buy cheap. Buy the best. Don't be surprised to get chimps if you only pay peanuts.

Luis

Wow, just checked back on this thread, thanks everyone for their replies!

Luis, I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about oil paints - I just started with oils very recently. I don't know the difference between student and artist grade. I have nothing against winton!

Just was curious about the difference in quality in the artists brands. Yes, I know ultramarine and alizarin are transparent pigments. However I have always read of oil paints as in general being an opaque medium. So, I was not sure exactly how the paints are supposed to act. I didn't know if it was my lack of skill, the paints lack of quality, or maybe just the way they are supposed to be! It makes sense though to me if artist's quality contains more pigment, it should be a little richer in coverage than the student quality paint. I'm sorry if you think I asked a stupid question.

Of course it is impossible to compare winton to rembrant - I was just curious to know if I would notice any appreciable difference if I was to upgrade my paints.

Best thing for me I guess it to try some on my own and come to my own conclusions!

artbabe21
10-13-2002, 02:16 PM
Luis.....sorry if I over reacted....I always stand up for you in your right to CHOOSE Winton which you enjoy, so I couldn't understand why you were coming after me?

Glad we have that cleared up & I know we're still friends:)

Wayne Gaudon
10-13-2002, 02:33 PM
Wow .. look what happens when you are away for a day. I compared Winton to Rembrandt (Ultra Marine Blue), so I guess I am in the lineup of the unforgiven but really that does not concern me.
My comparison was for Kiwi's benefit as I have used Winton for the better part of a year and when painting with a knife I have found no problem with the paint .. since I have injected the brush, I have found Winton to be stiff and after buying a few Rembrandts to see the difference, I have seen.

After doing only one swatch, I can say that the Rembrandt switch would be benefical based on color and ease of application .. after all, if it's that noticable in one color, it has to hold for the other colors as well. True, it's not fair to compare Winton to Rembrandt but the question was whether it was worth moving on up and I do believe that the benefits of one over the other would certainly show the obvious reasons for such an action.


First of all, in your opinion, is there a very great difference in student and artist quality? If I try a new brand, can I mix it with my wintons safely?
That was the question, was it not? Moving on up ... I personally, will move over to Rembrandts but I wouldn't say exclusively as I have no idea what type of painting I will be doing in a week from now let alone a year.

PS .. I did not degrade Winton, I merely stated that a much better quality of color and application was found in the more expensive Rembrandts. I did no disrespect to anyone on their recommendation of Winton because as I stated here and on other threads, if you paint with thick paint, it is better to use student grade paints. (in my humble opinion, anyway.) Winton did me fine for my knife work and now I upgrade for Brush Work. It's all a learning experience and when the dust has settled .. who knows?

I think we should all cool our heels and be nice .. we are family! We are expected to disagree but we don't have to fight. :D

guillot
10-13-2002, 03:15 PM
OMG............what did I miss? LOL

I believe there is a huge difference in artists quality vs student quality......for all of the reasons stated above. AND, money of course.......is always a factor :D. Different paints have different properties.

Wow wee guys!!! :D Are you all OK now?? I hope so. I've had my head stuck up my canvas today LOL.

Tina

artbabe21
10-13-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by guillot
I've had my head stuck up my canvas today LOL.


Leave it to our Tina, to lighten the mood......:)

Nobody hurt here, just a little excitement!!

Luis Guerreiro
10-13-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by kiwicockatoo


Wow, just checked back on this thread, thanks everyone for their replies!

Luis, I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about oil paints - I just started with oils very recently. I don't know the difference between student and artist grade. I have nothing against winton!

Just was curious about the difference in quality in the artists brands. Yes, I know ultramarine and alizarin are transparent pigments. However I have always read of oil paints as in general being an opaque medium. So, I was not sure exactly how the paints are supposed to act. I didn't know if it was my lack of skill, the paints lack of quality, or maybe just the way they are supposed to be! It makes sense though to me if artist's quality contains more pigment, it should be a little richer in coverage than the student quality paint. I'm sorry if you think I asked a stupid question.

Of course it is impossible to compare winton to rembrant - I was just curious to know if I would notice any appreciable difference if I was to upgrade my paints.

Best thing for me I guess it to try some on my own and come to my own conclusions!

Kiwi,

In regards to Winton, I usually defend it because it happens to be made in London, I have access to the factory and happen to KNOW how careful Winsor & Newton is with the manufacturing process. Of course Winton is a low cost paint, with limitations, hence the impossibility of comparing it with higher grades of oil paints.
The concept that oil paints are opaque is incorrect. Oil paints can be opaque, semi-opaque, transparent and semi-transparent. When in doubt, ask for a colour chart, each colour will be marked on the chart for its main characteristics.
If you have recently started in oils (welcome to oil painting :p ), but prefer an Artists Range, be careful not to go for a stiff range because you risk feeling disappointed. A stiff grade such as Old Holland asks for some manipulation to make it more workable, if you like to work "light". Some professional grades are very buttery and smooth and those are possibly the best for you. I can think of 2 good Pro Ranges allowing for a more buttery feel out of the tube: SENNELIER and REMBRANDT. I prefer SENNELIER because it is heavier. Rembrandt tubes are just too light in weight and that bugs me a bit. SENNELIER is also good value for money I think. Picasso liked Sennelier I have been told a couple of times (take it for face-value, I could not confirm such thing of course, but he did contact Sennelier for another reason-oil soft pastels!).
When you feel more confident, upgrade to Winsor & Newton or Old Holland if you really like a very stiff and strong paint. A cheaper range but equally heavy is SAX which is made in Switzerland (a 200 ml tube of SAX cadmium red weighs a ton!!!).
Hope this helps a little.
Luis :)

Luis Guerreiro
10-13-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
Luis.....sorry if I over reacted....I always stand up for you in your right to CHOOSE Winton which you enjoy, so I couldn't understand why you were coming after me?

Glad we have that cleared up & I know we're still friends:)

:angel:

Luis Guerreiro
10-13-2002, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by guillot
OMG............what did I miss? LOL

I believe there is a huge difference in artists quality vs student quality......for all of the reasons stated above. AND, money of course.......is always a factor :D. Different paints have different properties.

Wow wee guys!!! :D Are you all OK now?? I hope so. I've had my head stuck up my canvas today LOL.

Tina

Tina,

A little stirring makes life more interesting sometimes - LOL! :D

Luis

nam26b
10-13-2002, 08:00 PM
Just wanted to go on record again that I think Winton is just fine, and I'll probably still use it for studies, toning canvas, and when I'm low on cash I'd have no problem doing entire paintings with them.......only was surprised at the backlash against Winton.

I meant winton-whipped as in trashed by others, not that the line had been proven terribly inferior.

I am glad, though, that I got some new paint to try out,

Nathan

Leopoldo1
10-13-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
For example, even the very best range Ultramarine Blue IS ACTUALLY a HUE, not the real thing. Otherwise Lapis Lazuli would have to be used, at a cost of USD 2000 per ounce.

The reality is that a bad painter will make a mess out of the best paint. A good painter will make a master-piece out of ½ dozen WINTON paint tubes.

Despite all of the differences, Luis does make some strong points! I do agree, pigment does not make the painter. Some famous artist, years ago, who has now slipped my mind, had made a quote that was something similiar to this: "If I could pick out the background colors, I could paint with mud!"

True Lapis Lazuli is very disappointing. Yes, it was the only brilliant blue at the time, but today, we have many hues and synthetics that are wonderful, despite what the masters used! If you are a restorer, working in collaboration with some curator in some museum, the expense would be justifiable!

Painting is the important thing, no matter what brand you decide on.........L


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Oct-2002/lapus.jpg

Luis Guerreiro
10-14-2002, 04:09 AM
Hi Leopoldo,

I looked carefully at that colour chart. I enjoy that genuine Lapis Lazuli a lot. Still a very beautiful blue. A 15ml tube ordered especially costs in London around £ 200.0 Sterling. A true heart stopper.
Thanks for your comments.
Luis

DanaT
10-14-2002, 10:54 AM
I just started an oil class and I bought the W&N and the Old Holland.

Two reasons: Some of the pigments on the teacher's list only come in Old Holland. And when I started watercolor, I started with the cheapest materials out there but psychologically it made it more difficult to move up to artists grade materials when teachers began to point out some difficulties I was running into solely due to paint, brush, and paper quality. I kept painting with these problems for years until I figured that the added expense was less of a deterrent than the problems of painting with student grade. The initial investment though substantial was worth it and I don't have to replace my paints as often.

When I started with oils, I didn't want a repeat of my watercolor experience so having bit the bullet once made it easier for me to bite the bullet again. Artist quality materials really do last longer.

DanaT
10-14-2002, 10:59 AM
Luis, It's interesting that you recommend that beginners DON'T start with Old Holland. I have noticed it doesn't spread as easily on the first layer (a bit frustrating at that) but the problem disappears when you add additional layers.

Any advice on how to make that first layer go on smoother? It's not a big detraction - its only one layer but it would be great if I didn't have to fight with the paint on that first layer.

Luis Guerreiro
10-14-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by DanaT
Luis, It's interesting that you recommend that beginners DON'T start with Old Holland. I have noticed it doesn't spread as easily on the first layer (a bit frustrating at that) but the problem disappears when you add additional layers.

Any advice on how to make that first layer go on smoother? It's not a big detraction - its only one layer but it would be great if I didn't have to fight with the paint on that first layer.

Hi Dana,

I am under the impression you are trying to use paint straight out of the tube for your first layer. Am I correct or did I misunderstand you?
In any case, Old Holland paints are very stiff. Too rich and strong, just dilute with turpentine or a solution of 90% turpentine to 10% linseed oil (stand or raw linseed will do fine). Work your colours, each colour separately with the solution drop by drop on the palette until you are happy with the consistency of your paint blobs. When it comes to mixing, don't suffer the mixes too much on the palette, keep them fresh, work quick, just a couple of turns on the palette and that's it. Dip the brush on the solution, remove/squeeze the excess, pick the paint and apply. You'll see it will go a lot better.
If you want your OH to hold a peak, try LUKAS Medium 5 with them, it extends the paint considerably and is compatible with most simple painting mediums.
On top layers, use straight out of the tube, spread it quickly over the palette and pick with the brush from the spread colour, rather than picking from a blob. You'll save paint and get better results, I think.
Hope this helps.
Luis :)

DanaT
10-14-2002, 08:01 PM
Thanks Luis.You were right - I have been using the paint right out of the tubes - just dipping the brush once in turpenoid and once in linseed oil before picking up the paint. It works fine on subsequent layers but on the first layer I get inconsistent results - either too thick or too runny and transparent. I do spread the colors I want for a mix side by side and then crosshatch mix them; I guess I could add the medium to the spreads and then mix.

JamieWG
10-14-2002, 08:31 PM
Thanks, Luis, for educating us about Ultramarine and Lapis blue, and thank you, Leopoldo, for your test samples. Judging from the way that looks on my screen, ultramarine as we now know it looks nothing like the lapis blue! I'll take my ultramarine any day, whether it be Winsor Newton, Old Holland, Lukas, Rembrandt......

I have some questions about cobalt colors too, but I'm going to wait till my samples dry before I open my mouth!

Many thanks and best wishes,
Jamie

kiwicockatoo
10-15-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro

In regards to Winton, I usually defend it because it happens to be made in London, I have access to the factory and happen to KNOW how careful Winsor & Newton is with the manufacturing process. Of course Winton is a low cost paint, with limitations, hence the impossibility of comparing it with higher grades of oil paints.

Luis :)

Thanks Luis,

I think my problems with the paint stem more from my ignorance than anything else. I had expected the paint to be more opaque but I think the problem is with my technique. Why is it that beginners seem to have such problems with getting the paint on thick? As for the pigments, one quick peek at Wayne's paintings proves the Winton's look gorgeous!

Sorry Luis, didn't mean to be snarky, but some days I feel like an awfully small duck in a big pond around here. I'm not intentionally trying to sound like an idiot - I really just don't know much!:p

walden
10-15-2002, 05:41 PM
Question for Luis, or anyone else who might know:

I thought since you had access to the W&N factory & have talked with their personnel that you might know this: is their water-soluble line, the Artisans, as heavily pigmented as their artist's line? I use it outdoors, and my feeling from having both used Artisan outdoors and Winton in the studio for a year is that the Artisans are more heavily pigmented than Winton. But, I haven't compared to top-line regular oils, either W&N or anyone else's.

Just thought of another question: I can't use solvents in the studio, no matter which I try and how I try to use them (my "studio" is part of my living room, so what I do there affects the whole family, some of whom are even more sensitive than I am-- I would be willing to live with the sinus headaches if it were only me. :)) The only thing that doesn't seem to bother any of us is alkyd mediums. Anyway, can I use regular oils with a lot of alkyd medium (probably Liquin) as an under-layer, the same way I would use a turp wash, and then paint over it the next day with paint either straight from the tube, or with a bit of linseed oil? Will I have adhesion problems? Is the "fat over lean" criteria satisfied?

Much thanks to whoever has the answers!

Doug Nykoe
10-15-2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by kiwicockatoo


Sorry Luis, didn't mean to be snarky, but some days I feel like an awfully small duck in a big pond around here. I'm not intentionally trying to sound like an idiot - I really just don't know much!:p

I would not feel bad, I do not think even Louis would disagree that he has lots to learn as we all do.

There are many reasons not to choose student quality and to me the top of the list is the ability to mix colors on a consistent manner…what to expect. For instance, student quality paint where most all the hues live is a compromise for the real pigment.

When you buy Cadmium Red, for instance you are buying the milling process, which is different for each colour and that adds to the costs. In addition, Cadmium Red is a single pigment and not a mix, which is also important for me. Last what I come to expect from a cadmium red in compound mixtures.

Student quality can have a mixture of up to three colours to try to match that of Cadmium Red. As you already know when two pigments are mixed, they can never be as chromatically pure as a single pigment can. Now the mixing in itself becomes problematic in colour bias, mixing quality, and different opacity than the original. Not saying this is all bad but it is just different from the original and can become confusing when taking on such a complex endeavors as colour mixing. I try to keep it as simple as I can and as strong as I can and then I know what to expect.

When you upgrade to Artist Quality expect more than just better paints but different reactions to what you were previously used to. So this leads me to why in the world would they call them student paints….I don’t get that.

LarrySeiler
10-15-2002, 11:33 PM
I have experienced a similarity in this issue playing college level competitive tennis some years ago now.

I was so desperate for high level competition at one time that I used to pay for newspaper ads looking for individuals to play with.

Tennis was somewhat the vogue thing in those years, and graphite racquets were suddenly all the rage. I could not afford the investment. At that time wood racquets averaged around $36 and the graphite were $240. Minimum wage was perhaps a third of what it is now, so $240 was more like $400 today.

On top of that was the etiquette. If you were to be taken a "serious" player...you showed up with neat tidy white shorts and shirt, and of course two racquets in case you broke a string.

One of my favorite things to do though was to show up with a couple wood racquets. My favorites were the Dunlop Maxply Fort, and the Boron Composite Spalding. That Spalding was near $60 and I was pretty proud of owning that pricey wood racquet.

I had one extra racquet though that I would bring in case I detected the attitude tennis invited. A snooty "I know I'm important, but who are you?" kinda thing. I could pretty much size such an individual up before even beginning to hit prematch balls and I would pull out a Chrisy Evert Wilson wood racquet.

Yes...of course that was a woman's racquet, but I built the handle up to a thickness I could play. I also wore tattered worn cut off jean shorts. I was a walking insult to the player of distinction who thought they came to play serious tennis.

Of course no guy with a women's Wilson racquet was going to be able to handle their expensive graphites....however, I knew I'd push some psychological buttons which would lead to that individual beating himself. I used to have much delight with my Chrisy Evert summarily placing that ball in all parts of the court, watching the anger and pride destroy my opponent. A plus was getting enough under skin that he would take his $240 racquet and chuck it good and hard to the asphalt surface!

I'm not sharing this metaphor to point out snobbery, and I don't think that was anyone's intention here...but that in capable hands amazing things can be accomplished with what others construe to be little, to be ineffective, to be inferior.

I would personally love to try Old Hollands, and someday want to but at about $25 a crack at 40ml tubes...I'm not rushin out in the immediate future to get 'em. I use mostly Winsor & Newtons, a few Wintons (for which I enjoy some of their transparency for what I do -I mix white usually with those anyway, or Naples Yellow...and get my opacity I want plus a nice color), and a few Maimeri colors.

Larry

Wayne Gaudon
10-16-2002, 09:54 AM
Kiwi ..
I just did my first piece using the limited pallet of Rembrants that I bought .. 4 colors and white .. in the end I had to add a touch of Winton Cad Yell Med to get the effect I wanted but I can tell you this. ... I used 1/3 to 1/4 the paint and until you check it out for yourself you will never know... you will only be listening to people such as me who are biased in opinon as I like what I like for reasons that suit me.

True, you can't compare a 2002 car to a 1950 car for ride but who cares if the 1950 was great for the time .. it's now 2002. Go buy yourself a limited pallet and make a painting .. if you don't like the feel, I can't conceive a problem selling the Rembrandts. Let me know where you list them.

walden
10-16-2002, 10:04 AM
Hey Larry-- don't you be dissin' my Chris Evert wood! :D Got it for Christmas in 1975 . . .

On the same note, Lee Trevino used to win pickup golf matches while playing with a coke bottle-- his opponent could use whatever clubs he wanted.

Linoxyn
10-16-2002, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by walden
Just thought of another question: I can't use solvents in the studio, no matter which I try and how I try to use them (my "studio" is part of my living room, so what I do there affects the whole family, some of whom are even more sensitive than I am-- I would be willing to live with the sinus headaches if it were only me. :)) The only thing that doesn't seem to bother any of us is alkyd mediums. Anyway, can I use regular oils with a lot of alkyd medium (probably Liquin) as an under-layer, the same way I would use a turp wash, and then paint over it the next day with paint either straight from the tube, or with a bit of linseed oil? Will I have adhesion problems? Is the "fat over lean" criteria satisfied?

Much thanks to whoever has the answers!

Walden, it seems to me you are sensitive to turpentine. Do you and your family have the same sensitivity to a high quality OMS (oderless mineral spirits)? If they/you do then how are you able to use Liquin? It has a mix of solvents - very strong hydrocarbons and possibly toluene - these are very dangerous solvents to use without excellent ventilation.

It is entirely possible to paint with regular oils and not use a solvent during painting, I do and I find it's easy :)

In response to the adhesion and fat over lean question using liquin as almost an isolating layer - I would be a bit concerned, thou you can add a bit of oil to your oil paint layers, it may be a good idea to lightly abrade the liquin layer before commencing painting. A good rule of thumb... think about adding an amount of medium, oil, or solvent to your paint then do less.

Hope that helps :)

walden
10-16-2002, 11:06 AM
Thanks, Linoxyn, that does help-- I didn't know that about Liquin, so you've saved us all a headache (most of us are sensitive to OMS). I tried Liquin briefly once, but didn't like it so didn't leave it out long enough to get to anyone I guess. The one time I used Turpenoid for initial washes, I finally had to put the painting outside overnight to clear the house-- it kept out-gassing for a long time. :)

I'm looking for that sort of thin, initial scrub-in one gets with turp or mineral spirits. I'm going to do some experiments-- scrub in the day before with my water-solubles & water, and scrub in the day before with my water-solubles & the W&N quick-dry medium for them, which is alkyd-based but doesn't contain solvents. I don't need that initial layer to really be dry, just a bit tacky & thin & easy to paint over, like a wash.

I've also read of people using thin acrylic washes in this way-- does anyone around here do this?

DanaT
10-16-2002, 07:27 PM
Larry, I got some W+N's; they weren't much less expensive than the Old Hollands ;) :) But my teacher had us get 14 different colors :o so the little less expensive added up. I got W+N if W+N had the color and Old Holland if they didn't.

Only the Cerulean Blue and some of the more funky colors are $45. Most of the colors are $24 and under and several are under $10. It still adds up if you're getting a lot of paints though.

So far I'm happy with the paints tho and I'm glad I got all the colors. At my last class, my painting got to the point and I had enough time to just play around with the different pigments and see what happened. The painting turned out pretty good.

LarrySeiler
10-16-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by walden
Hey Larry-- don't you be dissin' my Chris Evert wood! :D Got it for Christmas in 1975 . . .

On the same note, Lee Trevino used to win pickup golf matches while playing with a coke bottle-- his opponent could use whatever clubs he wanted.

Hey Lisa....that Chrisy Evert won me more than a few matches!

I love golf too....and when I was younger and learning from a friend who was a young course pro, he'd take me on with just an eight iron. He'd set the club back in his stroke which would de-loft and essentially become every club in the bag. He had an amazing use of his shoulder, body rotation and legs. I can still picture him apply a slice to go around a dog leg right from the tee on a par four hole, and there was that stupid ball sitting right up on the apron of the green when we got up there! Crazy!!!!

Larry

LarrySeiler
10-16-2002, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by walden


I've also read of people using thin acrylic washes in this way-- does anyone around here do this?

Thin is how I did my photorealistic acrylics for near 20 years Lisa, and why they took 200 to 300 hours to complete.

Acrylics are phenomenal for such realism. I painted them very transparently, like watercolors but only with minute line hatching one stroke over another. The built up layers of such fine washes gave much control. However...you lose that sense of being a painter and more a craftsman laborer. Very time consuming.

Larry

LarrySeiler
10-16-2002, 07:46 PM
that's cool Dana....

I do want to buy better paint one day...but, I've been happy with my results and have heard no complaints from the galleries.

As Luis was saying, even the cheaper paints today are probably made better than paints from long ago.

I don't know...I'm not a chemist nor paint mixer.

Some take that itself to a fine art and hobby.

I like results though, and if my paintings would turn out better than they do already I'd be up for it. Part of my problem cranking out the high bucks is an inner skepticism that it would not make that much a difference in my work.

Again....I can do a lot with a Chris Evert Wilson.

Also...I'm not convinced I need expensive brushes either. I've had to learn to improvise in my younger years and my results were competitive with any other's work in state, regional and national competitions. Like I've said before, I paint with the paint on the brush. Two to three strokes and go back for more paint. Any more than that and you probably are removing or smearing paint. As such...I could probably chew an end of a willow sappling branch...splay out the fibers and paint with that!

I like a hog bristle, but I've been laughed at and held in contempt, ridiculed...you name it as a result of revealing my cheaper brands. I wish I could get them out on the tennis court. I'd show 'em!

Larry

Luis Guerreiro
10-17-2002, 11:47 PM
Larry,

You're absolutely right.
Any modern oil paint is better than paint used by the Old Masters of hundreds of years ago.
The only issues about Pro paints and "student grade" (or mid-range or low grade) are:

1 - Concentration of Pigment
2 - Type of pigment (cheaper grades tend to use more synthetic pigments which are considerably cheaper, but this does not mean synthetic is bad and genuine is good!). Today, modern synthetic pigments often offer better quality than traditional "genuine" pigments. See above posts about Ultramarine Blue and its genuine counterpart, Lapis Lazuli (a synthetic is use since the 19th century - nobody usually complains about this one, not even the most "orthodox" artists - it goes to show that short memory and historic ignorance compensate for a lot of snobbery!).
3 - Pigment mixes to match genuine pigments. This is now happening less and less every time all the time. Artists' pigments industries DO KNOW about our "little issues" and try to match the demand for single synthetic pigments capable of matching the original colour.
4 - Because we now have plenty of synthetic pigments (cheaper and better all the time), paint manufacturers don't need to use inert fillers in the way they used to, to make cheaper paints.

You are also right about brushes. Hog Bristles are excellent for the job. Especially the grade called "CHUNKING" Bristles are perfect. A bonus is that although of animal origin, hair is shaven off the back of the beast, so no real suffering or death is necessary to obtain them. Such is not the case with other types of hair, such as Badger, Mongoose, Kolinsky and others equally suitable for oils. Such brushes are made from the animals tails which are a by-product from the fur industry. I don't buy them because of the repulsive and infamous way animals are treated by the fur industry.
Some of the best synthetic brushes used for acrylics can be used for oils with 100% success. A lot of those saying that a smooth tonal transition in portraiture can only be properly done with their best Kolinsky or Badger fan brushes, are basically talking SNOB ****E! Excuse the frankness.
Provided the brushes hold their shape, are well taken care of, etc., there shouldn't be a problem. There is a number os Turners tools at the Tate Britain Museum, next to the galleries showing his paintings. Most of his brushes are NOT brilliant, I daresay. His paintings however are wonderful.
As I say, top paint and top brushes DO NOT make a masterpiece.
We the painters are the only tool necessary to achieve that.

Luis

JamieWG
10-18-2002, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
You are also right about brushes. Hog Bristles are excellent for the job. Especially the grade called "CHUNKING" Bristles are perfect. A bonus is that although of animal origin, hair is shaven off the back of the beast, so no real suffering or death is necessary to obtain them. Luis

Dear Luis,

You sure are a wealth of information. Thanks for sharing it with us here. I realy like bristle brushes too, and I'm going to look for these. My daughter is always asking me if I'm using dead animals when I paint, and I've been wondering about that.

Jamie