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cat1lady
06-30-2010, 08:22 PM
I don't need to get a lot of colors right now but I'm thinking of down the road some.

I was wondering which of the Cobra colors would be the best cool and warm of each primary, keeping to the least toxic and single pigment colors, if possible. I realize that's probably a tall order.

I was thinking of
Perm. Yellow light and Indian Yellow

Primary Magenta and either Transp red medium or Pyrolle red, to me they're similar in color but Pyrolle is more opaque. I don't know which would be a better choice. I paint primarily still life and some landscapes, but no people.

Ultramarine Blue and ???? I still have some cerulean hue of another brand
I was also thinking of Pthalo blue but it really looks very similar to the ultramarine blue although I know it's a strong tinter.

Non-primary colors:
I was also considering pthalo green but I wish they had the warm version. I still have a sap green of another brand.

Burnt sienna or transp oxide red

I'm still learning pigments.
Thanks,

Einion
07-01-2010, 02:55 PM
I was wondering which of the Cobra colors would be the best cool and warm of each primary, keeping to the least toxic and single pigment colors, if possible. I realize that's probably a tall order.
FWIW we - users generally - really don't have to worry about this at all if we use artists' paints normally.

To begin with most pigments are not quite as toxic as you're sometimes led to believe; ill effects would generally be from chronic exposure or from a huge dose, neither of which is realistically going to happen to the leisure painter if they follow common-sense studio practices. Even much more toxic substances still don't post any risk if they don't get into the body. This is obvious of course but it seems to be overlooked a bit when it comes to paints - if you don't get it on your skin, ingest it in some way (who eats paint?!) or inhale dust from spraying or sanding dried paint there's no route for it to enter the body. So where's the risk?

The reason I mention all this is that the best orange-side red and orange-side yellows IMO for a smallish palette like this are cadmiums :)

I was thinking of
Perm. Yellow light and Indian Yellow
Their Indian Yellow is made from PY110, Isoindolinone Yellow, which is a great pigment. Super mixer but just so you know it's extremely transparent. Permanent Yellow Light is a fine choice for one of the two yellows.

I would generally recommend a cadmium for one of the two yellows, mainly for the opacity it brings (particularly if you're not adding something like Yellow Ochre).

Primary Magenta and either Transp red medium or Pyrolle red, to me they're similar in color but Pyrolle is more opaque. I don't know which would be a better choice.
If you're not painting using glazing effects primarily then some opacity in a few of the paints for a split-primary palette is very valuable.

If you would prefer not to use a cadmium then I'd go for Pyrrole Red Light for the orange-red (even if it is a mixture). Primary Magenta would make a great violet-side pairing for this; Madder Lake - Pyrrole Rubine - is worth considering too.

Ultramarine Blue and ???? I still have some cerulean hue of another brand
I was also thinking of Pthalo blue but it really looks very similar to the ultramarine blue although I know it's a strong tinter.
An Ultramarine is one of the best choices for the violet-side blue and a phthalo blue (the GS in particular) goes very well with it. The Cobra one looks like Phthalo Blue RS unfortunately and in masstone they look very alike but they'll mix quite differently.

One could pair the Ultramarine with Phthalo Turquiose Blue instead (as a cyan rather than a true blue) to separate the hues even more widely. But you can mix a colour like this easily from the Phthalo Blue and Phthalo Green any time you need it and both colours individually are more useful than a single tube of them mixed.

For the rest of the palette, their Phthalo Green is a hard sell if you prefer Phthalo Green Yellow Shade but FWIW if you go with PY110 you can make a very similar colour from the blue shade and the yellow.

I would definitely recommend at least one earth colour and I'd pick Light Oxide Red over Burnt Sienna, both for its hue and for its opacity. Again, if you go with PY110 you can make a good range of transparent oranges and earth oranges on the palette very easily using that as a base.

I paint primarily still life and some landscapes, but no people.
Up to a point subject matter doesn't matter - build a good palette and you can paint landscapes about as easily as portraits :)

Einion

Crystal1
07-01-2010, 03:19 PM
They also have the Transparent Yellow medium (PY128) that WFMartin is always talking about--I've been wanting this ever since WFMartin first mentioned it.

Personally, I do a lot of glazing and prefer the transparent colors. You can always add some white to make them more opaque, but it's a lot harder to take the opaque out of a color to make it transparent.:lol:

I ordered just the CYM today, to make sure I like them before I buy the rest. They really have some exciting colors.:clap:

cat1lady
07-01-2010, 07:59 PM
Thanks Einion.

I was actually first considering Madder Lake, then I got to thinking that maybe it was too brown. I do like it though.

I was just looking at the colors on DB website. I looks to me like Pyrrole Red looks like Cadmium Red Medium and Vermilion looks like Cadmium Red Light.
Pyrrole Red Light is made from Pyrrole Red and Vermillion. So then, maybe it would be more versatile to get Pyrrole Red and Vermilion. Food for thought.

So what about this pallette:
Perm Yellow Lt
Indian Yellow
Vermilion
Pyrrole Red
Primary Magenta
Ultramarine
Pthalo Blue
Pthalo Green
Light Oxide Red
Titanium White

Crystal1
07-02-2010, 12:04 AM
Ohhhhhh. I like your colors. I think I remember that they basically discontinued vermillion because over time it turned black. Maybe that's been corrected though.

cat1lady
07-02-2010, 05:02 AM
Crystal1,
By CYM do you mean Cyan, Yellow and Magenta? What actual colors did you order?

The vermilion is actually Perinone Orange. This is the pigment info from the Dick Blick website. I don't know if that's the same pigment that turns black but it's not mentioned in the pigment info.

Properties

Perinone Orange is a strong, clean, reddish orange pigment classified as a vat pigment. It has an average drying time.
Permanence

Perinone Orange has excellent lightfastness and weatherfastness.
Toxicity

Perinone Orange is not considered toxic.
History

Perinone orange is often used in plastics and vinyls, automotive finishes, and printing inks. Its high cost limits its application to products for which superior lightfastness and weather resistance is essential. In textiles, it is used in synthetic fabrics that must survive in harsh conditions, such as tents and awnings.

Einion
07-02-2010, 08:02 AM
Personally, I do a lot of glazing and prefer the transparent colors. You can always add some white to make them more opaque, but it's a lot harder to take the opaque out of a color to make it transparent.:lol:
Practically, because adding white raises the value (and more quickly than an increase in opacity) it's not really a viable route to greater opacity in many cases.

On the other hand a thin application of anything is always more transparent :) More so if you also add some medium. It won't give quite the same effect as a naturally-transparent paint but smaller palettes require compromises.

BTW, on the PY128 front if you're considering getting the Cobra one I think you should compare theirs (http://www.dickblick.com/items/02109-4573/) to W&N's (http://www.dickblick.com/items/00461-4553/).


Thanks Einion.

I was actually first considering Madder Lake, then I got to thinking that maybe it was too brown. I do like it though.
Welcome. PR264 is generally crimson and now a fairly common choice as a lightfast replacement for Alizarin Crimson. Many users rightly rave about it - it's a stunning colour - but in mixing terms something in the rose-magenta range is actually a little more versatile.

But if you're used to a crimson as part of the palette it is probably the choice today.

I was just looking at the colors on DB website. I looks to me like Pyrrole Red looks like Cadmium Red Medium and Vermilion looks like Cadmium Red Light.
Pyrrole Red Light is made from Pyrrole Red and Vermillion. So then, maybe it would be more versatile to get Pyrrole Red and Vermilion. Food for thought.
Yes, you could definitely do that. It is perhaps slicing the pie a little too finely in the reds though.

It moves away from a split-primary a bit but there's no reason to rigidly follow a palette scheme if you want to get specific attributes from additions. Their Vermilion (Vermilion Hue!) is made from PO43, Perinone Orange, which is a good pigment; it's red enough in hue generally that it could be used in place of scarlet on the palette and theirs looks to be particularly reddish. Their Pyrrole Red is PR254 which is another fine pigment, mid-red in hue and a clean mixer.

In general if trying to choose between them the decision comes down to whether to mix reds from the scarlet and the rose/magenta or oranges from the red/scarlet and the orange-yellow. With both you don't need to do this, but is it really needed on a practical level - is there a need for maximum chroma in the orange-red-rose area?

If you want to restrict the palette to the least number of tubes that'll give you the most bang for the buck why not choose another paint in a different area instead, to push out that part of the colour envelope or to make certain mixes easier - Burnt Umber or Ivory Black for example?

So what about this pallette:
Perm Yellow Lt
Indian Yellow
Vermilion
Pyrrole Red
Primary Magenta
Ultramarine
Pthalo Blue
Pthalo Green
Light Oxide Red
Titanium White
That looks fine. There's nothing on that list I think you'd regret getting in absolute terms (each colour considered individually) and as part of a mixing set they should work together well.

Einion

Bluestocking
07-02-2010, 08:10 AM
Perinone orange, PO43, supposedly darkens over time (see http://www.artiscreation.com/orange.html). But that time might be a very, very long time indeed. Cobra's website says that vermillion's lightfast rating is: "at least 100 years lightfast under museum conditions." I guess if you have a museum in your house, vermillion will retain it's lovely looks for the next century or so...

Peace,
Regina

Titanium
07-02-2010, 09:34 AM
Museum conditions -

[1] Humidity controlled
[2] Fairly dustfree environment

***
[3] Lighting - memory here.Please feel free to correct.
Is it 1000 lux or 200 lux ?

My home here has a shielded exterior patio of 10 feet in width,facing north east,[I live in the tropics]then a plain glass sliding door with a crotchetted white curtain and 18 feet through the living room to the wall.The patio is painted in white and the living room is in bone white,both ceilings are white and 11 feet high.
Light hitting the wall,using a camera metre is 1400 lux from 7 a.m until 5.30p.m

So theorectically, their paint would only last ?

This is why apart from PY 254 [ car paint ] I have given up all faith in organic pigments.Mind you PY 154 does seem to last in our sunlight from paint on glass tests I did a few years ago.

Is it beacause some organic pigments can withstand over 250 deg.C of heat ?
Later.
Titanium - the fly in the ointment.

Einion
07-02-2010, 02:11 PM
Hey Titanium :wave:

ASTM I not good enough... man you is conservative! :D


Perinone orange, PO43, supposedly darkens over time (see http://www.artiscreation.com/orange.html). But that time might be a very, very long time indeed.
Yep, given it can perform very well in watercolour it should generally perform extremely well in an oil binder (where all pigments tend to do best).

Einion

Crystal1
07-02-2010, 03:49 PM
Einion: Thanks for the info on Cobra's Transparent Yellow Medium. WFMartin had taken a look at Rembrandt's Transparent Yellow Medium and seemed to find it very comparable to W/N Artist's Transparent Yellow Medium. Since I heard that Cobra had about 10% less pigment than Talen's Rembrandt, I assumed the colors difference would be negligible. I guess I will be using Indian Yellow for my warm yellow. You may be right about some of the opaque colors. In the past, I've always had an opaque and a transparent color in each primary, so I think I will continue that.

Cat1lady: I bought Cobra's Permanent Lemon Yellow (PY184) for the lemon yellow, since the Primary Yellow has 2 pigments. Perhaps I'll try your Permanent Yellow Light next time, since it looks more like a middle Yellow (neither green nor orange). I also got Primary Magenta (PV19). I also have Lukas Berlin's Permanent Alizarin Crimson and Cad. Red Light, that I hope will mix well with the Cobras. For the Cyan I bought Cobra's Phthalo Blue, since Cobra's Primary Cyan is just a mixture of Phthalo Blue and Zinc White.
I also remember that you can't get a darker color than the darkest colors you mix together and the Yellow and Magenta aren't all that dark.

I took a look on Dick Blick's Cobra chart and that Pyrole Red Light is gorgeous. I love your colors and I'm glad that the Vermillion isn't a true Vermillion that you might have problems with.

If I like these paints as much as I think I will, I'll be buying a lot more colors later.

Let's keep in touch on how they work out.

Titanium
07-02-2010, 06:05 PM
Einion,

hope you painted that eye,it's great.

I am pulling the PO43 information from here -
http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/watero.html

I am afraid I am indeed very cautious with organic pigments.I trust Kremer Pigments as they have been my suppliers for years and have stuck with just PR 255 and PY 154.
Titanium

cat1lady
07-02-2010, 06:52 PM
Just out of curiosity I emailed Dick Blick and asked why the cadmiums had the ACMI AP logo and not the CL. This is the response I received.

I assume that the cadmium colors in the Royal Talens Cobra Water Mixable Oil Colors are buffered in some way. This is usually done with barium. Unfortunately, I have not been able to get through to the vendor about this yet, probably due to the holiday weekend. I will let you know as soon as I get an answer.

Becky Parrigin
Product Information Specialist
Blick Art Materials

DAK723
07-02-2010, 09:20 PM
Just out of curiosity I emailed Dick Blick and asked why the cadmiums had the ACMI AP logo and not the CL. This is the response I received.

I assume that the cadmium colors in the Royal Talens Cobra Water Mixable Oil Colors are buffered in some way. This is usually done with barium. Unfortunately, I have not been able to get through to the vendor about this yet, probably due to the holiday weekend. I will let you know as soon as I get an answer.

Becky Parrigin
Product Information Specialist
Blick Art Materials
My guess is that they are just mis-labeled. All the cadmiums, as well as cobalt blue and cerulean blue are listed as hazardous on the MSDS sheet, which can be found on the cobra facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/cobra.wmo

Here are the applicable paragraphs:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jul-2010/82335-cobra-msdsdak.jpg

Don

Titanium
07-03-2010, 06:18 AM
Perhaps it would be best to build a palette that does not contain cobalt colours.Cobalt is an aggressive drier and I am also not sure just how long cobalt as a pigment has been used.

Driers like cobalt or manganese[umbers]will with time destroy the oil binder and most paints today already have some form of a drier in them,though paint companies are not legally bound to tell you so.

What about smalt?
It's a glass ingredient and for the blue colour to evolve,less than 3 % pure cobalt is needed.Historically, 2 to 18 % has been noted.As well as discoloration [ page 115- Artist's pigments- vol 2.]

Aside.If you are environmentally aware.The rags you use and water will have cobalt and cadmium compounds going down the drain or out in the trash.

Generally speaking wiping your brush clean on a layer folded rag should not be a health hazard.As long as you don't eat in the studio and wash your hands.General hygiene.

I avoid cobalt anything because zinc and cobalt don't play very nicely together.Often though not listed Titanium White in linseed oil [ I don't like safflower as a drying oil,needs a drier to work well - industrial practice coming into painting - walnut oil better.] has some zinc in it.

What's my other blue -------- genuine Blue Ochre if I need it.
Titanium

*Note to the gentle reader.I respond to all as professionals selling paintings and standing behind their product with good sound craftsmanship.

If however oil painting is just a hobby,please ignore me.Thank you.
But stay hygenic.