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donjusko
09-27-2002, 06:25 AM
Look at this other color wheel, it's not the Red/Yellow /Blue one you were taught in school.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/othercolorwheel.htm

Mario
09-27-2002, 01:18 PM
Thanks donjusko this should be fun! I will get into it this week...."shadow colors" is BIG.:angel: :evil:

donjusko
09-27-2002, 02:49 PM
Hi Mario,
Your are right, shadows are big.

islandwoman
09-30-2002, 09:53 AM
I always benefit from reading your threads and looking at your site. Perhaps you would help me understand something about your and other's color wheels.

Specifically, I am looking for a list or a chart of some sort that gives a corresponding color from one manufacturer or medium to another.

I.e., Your color wheel list color names that appear to be for oils. How would this translate across mediums to acrylics, in my case mostly Golden colors? When you list a color, say, Blockyx yellow cobalt, how do I figure out the corresponding color in my medium and maufacturers line.

Another instance is the Quiller Color wheel. He lists Permanent Rose as a primary red. I think Golden's Qunacridone Red is a substitute for this, but Quiller shows it higher up the wheel.

Sorry if this is a very rudimentary question .

Einion
10-02-2002, 04:57 PM
A good question Islandwoman. I've touched on some of this in a new <a href= http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63623>thread</a>.

Unfortunately, there is nowhere where acrylics are compared comprehensively in the same manner as on the Handprint site and as for comparisons from medium to medium it can be impossible to get direct matches - there are a number of colours available in oils that are hard to find in acrylics or not available at all. Aureolin, Cobalt Yellow, for example is not a common colour any longer as more reliable yellows of lower cost are far more numerous today than when it was first developed. While the same colour in oils and acrylics from the same manufacturer will almost always use the same pigment and therefore be virtually indistinguishable, from maker to maker the same colour name can be applied to quite different colours (take Renee's recent <a href= http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54575>Cadmium Yellow Pale</a> woes for example).

Golden's Quinacridone Red and W&N's Permanent Rose are quite similar and list the same pigment name but they are not identical. However I think it is important to remember that with colours as close as these two unless you are directly comparing the results of mixes using them you are unlikely to notice any problems. And in the context of an actual painting minor differences in colour are far less critical than in colour mixing tables, so as with complementary colours close is often good enough.

Einion

donjusko
10-03-2002, 02:18 AM
Hi Islandwoman,
Einion is right.
I have never found a replacement for Rembrandt Rose.
I don't know about 'close enough' in mixing complementary colors. A lot of my work was done gettin complements right on. That's why PR:122 is the best choice for magenta.
Brands do make their own choices on how to use Pigment Numbers.
PB:7 Can be from turquoise to green, etc.
However, these Pigment Numbers are the same for acrylics or oils.
It's the brand that makes the difference, that's why I choose carefully.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/mypigments.htm
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/colorwheel.htm
This one shows both acrylics and oil colors I chose for my palettes.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/mypigments.htm

TODAY'S PERMANENT TRANSPARENT CHEMICAL PIGMENTS

PY153 dioxine nickel complex + PR 260 isoindolin = Indian Yellow Golden.
PY153 dioxine nickel complex + PY3 stable di-arylide = Gamboge
PR 170:F5rk naphthol carbamide = Scarlet Pink
PV19 quinacridone = Rose
PR122 quinacridone = Magenta
PV23:1r carbazole dioxazine = Purple
PV23 dioxine nickel complex = Permanent Violet Blueish transparent secondary blue, tints to Ult. Blue.
PB60 anthraquinone and Indanthrone = Blue Deep to Turquoise
PB15 copper phthalocyanine = Cyan (Thalo Blue) to Green Y/S
PB7 Chlorinated copper phthalocyanine = Turquoise to Green
PY83 stable di-arylide + PG7 chlorinated copper phthalocyanine = Sap Green Y/S
PY83 stable di-arylide HR + PG7 chlorinated copper phthalocyanine + PO43 perinone orange = Sap Green O/S
PY129 methin copper complex = Green Gold
PY.. azomethine = Genuine Green Gold

Liquitex has some nice new transparent colors, Acra Gold = yellow to brown, darker than Indian Yellow Brown Side. A Burnt Orange that's brown to orange and Van Dyke Brown, a brown to red color.


TODAY'S TRANSLUCENT TO OPAQUE PALETTE PIGMENTS,
needed for their opaqueness and brilliance.

PY35 cadmium Zinc sulfide = Cadmium Yellow Lemon
PT37 cadmium sulfide = Cadmium Yellow Light, Medium
PO20 cadmium sulfo-selenide = Cadmium Orange
PR108 cadmium seleno sulfide = Cadmium Red Light, Medium
PR101 synthetic red iron oxide = Red Oxide
PY42 synthetic yellow iron oxide = Yellow Oxide
PBr7 natural iron oxide, raw and calcined = Sienna and Umber
PB29 silica, aluminium, sulphur complex = Ultramarine Blue
PB28 oxides of cobalt and aluminium = Cobalt Blue
PG17 anhydrous chromium senquioxide = Chromium oxide Green

Color is important, I hope this helps.

islandwoman
10-03-2002, 05:24 AM
Thank you both Einion & Don. I will look at the threads later when I have time to digest the info. Maybe then I can resign my membership in the color theory Densa group.

gnu
10-16-2002, 05:36 AM
WEll, I transferred the colours of this wheel visually to my CP's (coloured pencils...a 36-set) and made all grays with the complimetaries!!! Yay. thanks for this, I'm gonna LOVE it!!!
I had already been side-stepping off the straight RGB complimentaries anyway,,, but I like the Xtra guidance using this wheel...:clap: :clap:

donjusko
10-17-2002, 01:31 AM
Hi Gill,

Thank you for mentioning another medium my color wheel works with.
I know it works with every medium but I forgot colored pencils. May I quote your post Gill?

Since I don't use colored pencils, would you send me an example image that I could use on my site? You and your company will get full credit.

I think it is very important to artists around the world to be exposed to this new set of complements.

And would you rate this thread for me please?

Thanks again,
Don

gnu
10-17-2002, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by donjusko
Hi Gill,

Thank you for mentioning another medium my color wheel works with.
I know it works with every medium but I forgot colored pencils. May I quote your post Gill?

Since I don't use colored pencils, would you send me an example image that I could use on my site? You and your company will get full credit.

I think it is very important to artists around the world to be exposed to this new set of complements.

And would you rate this thread for me please?

Thanks again,
Don
I promise to work on this Don, I just did a quick overlay of colours, no image as such...yet...but I will do something..
watch this space!!! :D
I will rate this thread for you, and yes you may quote the post. :)

donjusko
10-17-2002, 01:49 AM
Hi Gill,
I'll be looking forward to your posts.
Don

donjusko
12-30-2002, 05:36 PM
Thanks for your entry Gill,
This is a painting I started Christmas morning for the Christmas Dinner.
Here is a link to the progression of the painting, Eggs and Brazilian Red Pepper Corns.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/kaupoeggspepper.htm
Here is the Christmas Dinner page with all it's entree's.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/christmasonlocation.htm

donjusko
12-14-2003, 12:28 AM
Hi Island Woman,

This is what you are looking for and maybe a little more. This is a RCW with Daniel Smith's brand name pigments. Daniel Smith had the first correct magenta first and called it Acra Violet, PR122.
That is why I used his brand to add all the available colors to the RCW color wheel.
They are at the cutting edge of color, Grumbacher is up there also.

This RCW 36 colorwheel has the brand pigment names and the more important generic Chemical Class names.
It also includes the pigment chemical name in these Chemical Classes, the Color Index Name, and the Color Index Number.
Just what you need to make the most reliable choice among brands in all media.

Each brand name pigment is a chosen color made from one or more Chemical Classes in combination.
Each Chemical Classes color travels on a graduated path changing color and Pigment Color/Color Index number as it moves. The PC number also has a graduated path of different related colors.

Blue-Violet is between Cyan and Magenta and is Ultramarine Blue in color. Blue-Violet is a photo industrial color term for the blue filter used to make the yellow printing plate. Red, Green and Blue are primary colors on the Light color wheel only.

Red and Blue pigment colors are secondary colors and can be made mixing the pigment primary colors of transparent Yellow and Cyan or Cyan and Magenta. Red is not the opposite of Green, they are both secondary colors capable of being mixed.

The same brown to yellow color intensity scale of yellow is found in both element crystal compounds and class chemical compounds. The elements lead and iron have oxides with similar ranges of color from yellow to brown and red to brown in both the synthetic chemicals and natural oxides, just like their crystal counterpart. Pigment color oppositions match the color elements crystal oppositions, which match the chemical class colors with their paths of darker color intensities.

Example.. From the element Copper we get Copper Phthalocyanine as a Chemical Class with a path from green PG7 to cyan PB15.
PB15 has a path from cyan PB15:1 to a transparent cobalt blue PB15:3.

To paint a sky you need the purest cyan near the horizon line and by adding magenta you get the sky's zenith color of ultramarine blue.

Example.. The same brown to yellow color intensity scale of yellow is found in element oxides, crystal compounds, Chemical Class compounds and vegetable colors.

The elements lead and iron have oxides with similar ranges of color paths from yellow to brown and red to brown in the synthetic chemicals, natural oxides and vegetable colors, just like their crystal counterpart.

For we pigment artists, pigment color oppositions should match the element's crystal opposition.

The Chemical Class colors tend to move in a lateral path, crystal color paths also move from light to dark, both are represented on the RCW.

Crystal color paths to darker color intensities move right across black to the opposing color. The 36 colors on the RCW color wheel and their tints match the lights RGB color wheel, but not the RGB subtractive path to dark.

The Pigment Color numbers mark that color's position on that Chemical Class path. Combinations of and Chemical Colors make new brand colors. Brand color names are arbitrary, Pigment Color numbers and Color Index numbers are not, but they don't give the pigment's attributes. They are from transparent to translucent, mono-toned or dual-toned and are never granular.

This RCW color wheel, based on color elements and compound element crystal colors, works in pigment, dye and stage lighting.

Here is the url.
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/RCWDS.htm
Don

Eugene Veszely
12-14-2003, 02:44 AM
More interesting colour talk :)