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NannyE
06-08-2010, 09:48 AM
Any recommendations on water mixable oils? I've been using VanGogh H2O and Winsor Newton. I find Winsor dries up much too quickly, tacky to work with.

hblenkle
06-08-2010, 10:13 AM
I found the WN WMO to get tacky when I used water. Solution was to only use water when cleaning up.

Dana Design
06-08-2010, 10:37 AM
Moved to the WMO forum.

DAK723
06-08-2010, 12:38 PM
I've always had good success with the Grumbacher Max. Never had trouble when using water - although you should only use a very small amount when adding water to the paint. Also have tried the Holbein Duos and found them high quality. The van Goghs are definitely student grade. Holbein, Grumbacher and W&N are artist grade or close to it.

Don

Crystal1
06-08-2010, 12:54 PM
W/N Artisan's do not mix well with water, but they have a WMO thinner than you can use in place of water and it also works well with all the other brands of WMO.

vanglow
06-08-2010, 07:47 PM
ok I have been painting in acrylic for 12 years and just tried traditional oils. I got a headache every time I used them plus the studio space I rent says no chemicals so I bought H2Oils. I took an oil painting class to learn the attributes of the medium and am into 7 of 10 lessons. Seems the instructor knows nothing about WM oils and I am having a hell of a time trying to get info on the net. So I paint landscapes and don't do any glazing. I have used only thinner with the oils and plan on water as a thinner with the H2oils. Can someone please tell me what other mediums I might use with the H2oils if any? I under paint all my land and buildings and then when that is dry I paint windows , doors and add lines and some dry brushing embellishments etc. Should I use a medium for this or just varnish when it is all done. Can I use other brands of medium with the H2oils or only van Gogh mediums? Also any sites or books you might recommend on water soluble would be greatly appreciated.
I am so glad I found this site I have learned so much already
:o)
van Glow

DAK723
06-08-2010, 09:12 PM
In my opinion, the main reason to use a medium (whether regular or WM oils) is to get the paint to flow off the brush in a way that you like and can control. If you can paint straight from the tube, you don't need a medium. Water in WM oils is a solvent, so just like turps or mineral spirits in regular oils, it can be used to thin your paint, but must be used very sparingly. Using a solvent as a medium has a few negative drawbacks; too much of it and your paint film is underbound, and it creates a matte finish. Almost all WMO brands sell mediums that are either all oil (like linseed) or a combination of oils and solvent (these are usually named "mediums"). The best thing to do is just buy one and see how it works. In all cases, the amount of medium added to your paint pile shouldn't be more than 20-30%.

Again, if you can paint without mediums, it is the least complicated method!

Hope this helps.

Don

karenlee
06-08-2010, 11:11 PM
I have been happy with Grumbacher MAX WMO's. At first, I had disasters due to adding wayyyy too much water. Then the tech rep told me to use a couple drops of water, from an eyedropper, per inch of paint from the tube!!! That seemed pretty tedious. After I read on Wetcanvas that a lot of people were using walnut oil (from M. Graham), I started to use either that or the Grumbacher MAX medium. Those are just what the doctor ordered. I don't use any water while painting any more, and couldn't be happier. I haven't tried any brands other than Artisan, which I found was nowhere near the heavy body of MAX, so I quit using it. Plus the Artisan painting medium smells bad IMHO.

vanglow
06-09-2010, 07:06 AM
Great advice thank you. I will try it straight first and go from there. I do have one more question? Can you use any brand of mediums designed for WSO? I just find van Gogh has only one and not available where I live but lots of WN products. I have quite a few H2oils paints I need to use up before trying any other brands. Can I use regular walnut oil designed for oils with the h2oils if I decide to try that route?
thanks again. I have learned more from this site in 3 days of intermittent reading than I have in 7 weeks of class!

karenlee
06-09-2010, 08:05 AM
I have used walnut oil with my WMO's with no ill effects. I have read that various WMO's are not equivalent, so crossing brands for a medium may or may not work. Van Gogh medium should be available by mail order from the big art supply houses, for example, from Dick Blick:

http://www.dickblick.com/products/van-gogh-h2oil-medium/

I'm sure it's available elsewhere as it is a major brand; I use Blick because they are close, and the service is quite fast (2 days).

NannyE
06-09-2010, 04:38 PM
Thanks to all for advice on water mixable oils. Apparently, too much water is the culprit. I'm going to use the WN thinner.

vanglow
06-09-2010, 07:23 PM
ok thanks good to know. I am in eastern Canada so to order just the medium from Dick Blick would cost more in shiping than the product. I will wait and maybe give the walnut oil a try as my medium. I do still like to use taltine as my thinner so I may use that instead of water as well....any thoughts?

karenlee
06-10-2010, 10:08 AM
It's my understanding that mineral sprirts (Taltine) should not be used as a thinner with any artist paint, and that organic solvents (turpentine etc) should never be used with water miscible oils.

karenlee
06-10-2010, 10:14 AM
To be on the safe side, it would be best to stick with Van Gogh H2O medium. Here is a link to a list of shops in Quebec that carry Talens (mfr of Van Gogh
H2O) products:

http://www.talens.com/english/shopfinder/result.asp?country=Canada&city=Montreal&merken=

Crystal1
06-10-2010, 01:19 PM
I know of several people using different brands of WMOs that use Walnut Oil as their medium. As far as I know, the walnut oil has worked fine when mixing different brands of WMOs, or with all brands of WMOs. It also retains the water washability and slows the drying process.

karenlee
06-10-2010, 05:26 PM
Right-- I use walnut oil and WMO with no problem too. Sorry-- I did not mean that Van Gogh medium is the only option!

DAK723
06-10-2010, 07:42 PM
It's my understanding that mineral sprirts (Taltine) should not be used as a thinner with any artist paint, and that organic solvents (turpentine etc) should never be used with water miscible oils.
Hi Karenlee,

Just wondering where you may have gotten this information and if there are any links you can point us to.

My memory of what I've learned about water miscible oils is that they can be used with the same mediums and solvents as regular oils. This would include the solvents; Mineral Spirits. Oderless Mineral Spirits and Turpentine. Of course, the main reason people use the WMOs is to avoid these solvents, so if you plan on using these solvents, then you may as well use regular oils and mediums.

I am not familiar with the term Taltine, but if it is artist grade Mineral Spirits - such as Gamsol, Turpenoid or other, then it can be used as a medium, provided that it is used in small enough quantities to ensure that the paint film does not become unbound. For that reason, and because it creates a matte (rather than glossy) finish, some folks do recommend that solvents not be used alone as a medium. Many others, however, do use solvents as a medium, especially in their initial layer or underpainting. The usual recommendation is to use a medium that is a combination of a solvent and an oil (or alkyd), rather than only a solvent, to avoid the problems mentioned above.

Don

hayday77
06-10-2010, 08:32 PM
I have been using WN medium but will try picking up some walnut oil - sounds like it works well for a lot of people.

Hey Vanglow - nice to see someone else from Eastern Canada

Dale (NB)

karenlee
06-10-2010, 10:54 PM
DAK723,
I do not know where I saw/heard or read about not using VOCs with WMO.
Checking the mfr's specs, I agree with your statement and I apologize for my misinformation, which I am happy to have corrected!

DAK723
06-12-2010, 02:08 PM
I just read the PDF sheet for the Lukas Berlin WMOs. They do say that the Lukas Berlin paints should not be thinned with conventional solvents - just with water. However, on the same page they say that you can use traditional mediums with the Lukas Berlins. I didn't check, but I'm guessing that some of those traditional mediums contain traditional solvents, too.

I just re-read the Sean Dye book on WMOs, and at the time of publication, the Talens Van Gogh H2Oil line did not include any of their own mediums, so Dye says using mediums of the other brands works OK with them.

Don

diarydate12
06-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Can Copal oil be used with water mixable oils for glazing?

dspinks
06-15-2010, 11:05 AM
Using traditional solvents/mediums with wmo is ok, it just lessens the water-miscability/ease of cleanup (increasingly so with higher percentage of traditional product used). It is a personal choice largely based on your experience and on your reasons for using wmo instead of traditional oils in the first place.

I don't like the smell of turps, and I like easy cleanup, so I use all Artisan products: Thinner for the underlayer, painting medium (sometimes with fast drying medium), then a bit of oil to that mix for the last layer or two. I only use water for final cleanup.

Crystal1
06-16-2010, 12:07 PM
NannyE: I just realized that in the beginning you wanted to know about different brands of WMOs. You can get a free trial tube of Cobra's new WMOs. There is a link in this Water Mixable Oils Section, called Cobra WMOs... Hope this helps.

NannyE
06-20-2010, 09:31 AM
Crystal1: Thanks for the info on Cobra. I requested a sample. Looking forward to trying it.

greywolf-art
06-20-2010, 03:46 PM
It's my understanding that mineral sprirts (Taltine) should not be used as a thinner with any artist paint, and that organic solvents (turpentine etc) should never be used with water miscible oils.
agreed you shouldn't use mineral spirits with oils, but turps is actually ok to use with WMO's - it just sort of defeats the purpose of having a solvent free medium!

No6 Brush
06-20-2010, 08:10 PM
agreed you shouldn't use mineral spirits with oils, but turps is actually ok to use with WMO's - it just sort of defeats the purpose of having a solvent free medium!

Why shouldn't you use mineral spirits (white spirit) with oils ?

It's perfectly usable with artist oil paint as long as you get a quality one intended for artists use.

http://www.winsornewton.com/products/oils-solvents-mediums--varnishes/oil-colour-oils-solvents-mediums--varnishes/solvents/artists%27-white-spirit/

Tony

greywolf-art
06-21-2010, 04:32 AM
Why shouldn't you use mineral spirits (white spirit) with oils ?

It's perfectly usable with artist oil paint as long as you get a quality one intended for artists use.

http://www.winsornewton.com/products/oils-solvents-mediums--varnishes/oil-colour-oils-solvents-mediums--varnishes/solvents/artists%27-white-spirit/

Tony
usable isn't the same as recommendable, mineral spirits tend to produce a less stable paint surface - even artists quality!

No6 Brush
06-21-2010, 04:52 AM
usable isn't the same as recommendable, mineral spirits tend to produce a less stable paint surface - even artists quality!

Evidence ?

Many books recommend mineral spirits and quite a few commercial oil painting mediums use mineral spirits as an ingredient. As far as I was aware it's only when using resins, damar etc that you need to use a strong solvent like turpentine otherwise mineral spirits is fine.

Tony

greywolf-art
06-21-2010, 10:27 AM
from the michael harding oils website:

"Although White Spirit is produced to artists’ quality and sold as such, it lacks any trace of the gummy residue which all natural Turpentines possess, and which acts as an assisting binding agent when paint thinned with Turpentine is dry. By contrast, the oil of paint thinned with White Spirit is more molecularly disrupted, and dries to a slightly less stable film."

All of which is irrelevant since we are talking about water mixable oils anyway where the use of turps or mineral spirits completely defeats the point of a solvent free medium!

No6 Brush
06-21-2010, 10:53 AM
from the michael harding oils website:

"Although White Spirit is produced to artists’ quality and sold as such, it lacks any trace of the gummy residue which all natural Turpentines possess, and which acts as an assisting binding agent when paint thinned with Turpentine is dry. By contrast, the oil of paint thinned with White Spirit is more molecularly disrupted, and dries to a slightly less stable film."


That's just an opinion and contains no real evidence or proof. It's contrary to the often published advice that mineral spirits is perfectly suitable for use with artists oil paint. Otherwise we'd all be using turps exclusively !

Solvents such as Mineral spirits, OMS and Artisan Thinner all produce perfectly stable paint films when used properly.

In relation to water miscible oils it still has relevence as up to 20% of normal oil painting mediums can be used with WMO's and still retain the the easy clean up with water.

As mediums shouldn't normally be more than 20% of the of the paint it's moot whether special water miscible mediums / solvents are even needed.

Tony

greywolf-art
06-21-2010, 05:51 PM
using WMO's is more a health choice for many of us so whether the traditional solvents are compatible is far from moot - its pointless using WMO's to avoid solvents if you are just going to add solvents anyway!

whether its 20% or 200% easy cleanup is irrelevant - the solvents will still be there along with all the health dangers that go with them, so to be honest I couldn't care less if mineral spirits are better or worse that turps - I won't be using either of them,

No6 Brush
06-21-2010, 06:02 PM
For someone who couldn't care less you seem pretty opinionated...

agreed you shouldn't use mineral spirits with oils, but turps is actually ok to use with WMO's - it just sort of defeats the purpose of having a solvent free medium!

and still haven't explained why you claim you shouldn't use mineral spirits with oils other than quoting one supplier saying there's a miniscule difference in paint film strength between turps and spirits.

If your going to make pronouncements about materials at least be able to back up what you claim.

greywolf-art
06-21-2010, 06:38 PM
I'm opinionated about the pointlessness of using solvents with a medium that is designed to remove the need for solvents (why not just use conventional oils in that case) I couldn't however care less about solvents I'm not going to use!

though TBH re-reading my original post I don't think I worded it very well (usual rush to type stuff as I was about to go somewhere else) I should have said that if you are going to use solvents then turps is better than mineral spirits for oil painting for many reasons, and that solvents are ok to use with WMO's - but totally pointless to use even if they are compatible.

No6 Brush
06-21-2010, 07:02 PM
I'm opinionated about the pointlessness of using solvents with a medium that is designed to remove the need for solvents (why not just use conventional oils in that case) I couldn't however care less about solvents I'm not going to use!

though TBH re-reading my original post I don't think I worded it very well (usual rush to type stuff as I was about to go somewhere else) I should have said that if you are going to use solvents then turps is better than mineral spirits for oil painting for many reasons, and that solvents are ok to use with WMO's - but totally pointless to use even if they are compatible.

Fair comment about going solventless, although that can equally be applied to regular oils as well as WMO's as a method of working, if someone has a allergy / health issue with a solvent.


To assume solvents are of no interest and pointless to all WMO users is simply wrong. Not everyone chooses WMO's for the same reason, for me it's just the easy clean up. I paint with regular oils at home and use WMO's in my pochade box, used both outdoors and at my art club meetings where the easy clean up is an advantage.


I accept your original statement may have been poorly worded and in haste implying mineral spirits shouldn't be used at all and yes I will concede for certain uses Turpentine is the better choice but mineral spirits is still a perfectly good painting medium to use.

Hopefully that can now draw this issue to a close

Regards
Tony

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those that are interested I just noticed there's a link on the WetCanvas main page about mineral spirits v turpentine...

http://www.artistsnetwork.com//article/?p_ArticleId=10123

Ken Nielsen
06-21-2010, 07:05 PM
ok thanks good to know. I am in eastern Canada so to order just the medium from Dick Blick would cost more in shiping than the product. I will wait and maybe give the walnut oil a try as my medium. I do still like to use taltine as my thinner so I may use that instead of water as well....any thoughts?

If you don't live near a source, it is still better to pay the shipping and get the product. If it works for you you can order enough to last you. It's worth it IMHO in order to find what works best for you. I went to the art store and bought smallest size of everything for mediums and thinners for WMO Artisan. Some I will probably never use again, but I got to try them all and now I know I have the best and it works the best also.

Ken

sholmz
07-17-2010, 04:35 PM
Hi!! Today I used WMO for the 1st time and have a couple questions for someone. I was painting a rather large background and the paint want cover the canvas. It will leave heavy patches of paint and other places, hardly any at all. It also seems to be very tacky while doing this background.

Next, water will not clean bruches very well at all. Whats up with that?

Crystal1
07-18-2010, 12:12 AM
Well, your case sounds unusual. If you use a lot of water with your WMOs, then that can happen. What brand of WMOs are you using? Did you use a medium with them, and what kind of medium? What are you painting on--Canvas, plywood, masonite, etc? Is your background gessoed and what brand of gesso did you use? We usually clean our brushes in soap and water and then rinse in water only.

cat1lady
07-18-2010, 01:23 PM
Did you mix the paint well? I have found that in the rare instance where I actually use water to thin the paint some, that I really have to mix it in evenly or that very situation occurs.
I also found that I need to have something in the cleaning water container that I can rub the brush against. Just putting the paintbrush in water doesn't work. I have on of those jars with the metal coil on the bottom.
I've noticed that my MAX Prussian blue is really hard to get off my brushes.

sholmz
07-18-2010, 05:21 PM
I have used regular oil paint for years and decided to try these. I am 67 years old and cannot afford the best so I bought Reeves. I bought cheap so if I didn't like it, I would just throw it away. It sounds like others had the problems I have with more expensive paints. I used alot of water in the background and the brushes clean well with brush soap, but a rinse when changing colors will not come out. I have not used medium. I guess I will try using it before throw it out. I don't think I'm going to like the paint. It will only save the terp cost. Thanks.

couturej
07-18-2010, 06:48 PM
Hi sholmz! Never tried the Reeves but just like any other medium their is a learning curve. If you're getting stickiness then you're using too much water. I've only had one problem with stickiness and that was when I first started using WMOs and I was mixing brands. One worked fine with water (Holbein) and the other needed more careful addition of water (Grumbacher Max). The big thing with Water Mixable Oils is to learn how to use the brand you're using properly.

During my painting session I use water in a container to clean my brushes but I use a cloth to wipe them after. I also have a screen at the bottom of my container. After a painting session I wash my brushes with a little liquid soap in the palm of my hand and water and rub my brush in the palm of my hand. Rinse under water and repeat until the water runs clear. I've never had any problem with cleaning brushes with WMOs.

sholmz
07-18-2010, 09:04 PM
Thank you all so very much.
sammy

Crystal1
07-20-2010, 12:21 PM
Sholmz: It sounds to me like you might be trying the WMOs, just to save money. Most of us that use WMOs either have health problems, are trying to avoid health problems, or prefer the easier clean up with WMOs. Personally, I don't think that the WMOs are actually cheaper. In order to get an artist grade oil, you must buy the most expensive WMOs. Also, I have bought the Artisan WMOs, the Lukas Berlin, and the Cobra WMOs, before I found a WMO that feels like regular oils to me. I have also tried about 5 different mediums. To me, this search has been worthwhile--I no longer have to worry about my husband's or my health problems being made worse by the solvents normally used in regular oils. I realize that some people are willing and able to use regular oils without solvents, but that method seems difficult to me.

I'm not trying to discourage you from using WMOs, I'm just saying that it takes time and money to be able to use the WMOs, in my opinion.

marchhare
07-31-2010, 07:21 PM
Please help me. I have only used traditional oil paint but am very interested in WSO for obvious reasons. Can somebody please give me the 1-2-3 of the pros and cons of traditional oil paint versus WSO's, including color holdout, archival value, etc? Thanks a bunch. Marchhare.

Crystal1
08-01-2010, 04:31 PM
Marchhare; I think these are more difficult questions than you realize. I don't know what your "obvious reasons" are, but I will try to answer your questions. Many people might have something different to say. You can buy the very best oils in regular oil paint. In WMOs there are only 3-4 brands that are artist grades; Holbein Duo Aquas, Royal Talens Cobra (very new) and possibly Weber Woils. W.N. Artisans are very close to artist grade, but not quite, but they are the brand that are easy to find at most local art stores. There are many student grade WMOs, but like most things the easiest rule is that "you get what what you paid for". The better brands use the better pigments and in those better pigments, the color will last longer. As far as Archival value goes, these paints have been tested by some of the most reputable brands to try to assure Archival quality, but since they haven't been around for 100 years, I don't think that can actually be guarenteed. They are easier to clean up at home or plein aire painting. You would probably need to try out several brands and mediums to find the brand that works best for you. Probably a good idea to get white and blue in the brands you think you might like, and then do a monochromatic painting (snowy mountain type scene), for the second test you might buy yellow and you could do a mountain scene with trees and grass. A lot of people (including me) bought a full palette of one brand, and then find out that their brand doesn't work as well for them. Do not use water as a medium for WMOs.

Good luck!

AngelinaHolland
08-06-2010, 02:17 PM
I use WMO H2Oil and a medium for WMO from W&N. So far I haven't had any problems whatsoever. Works like a charm, cleaning brushes is not a chore I hate anymore. I like the results a lot, not at all mat, but nice and shiny like oilpaint is supposed to be. I deliberately didn't go for Artisan as this is so thick from the tube. Know someone else who teaches paint classes and she tried it and didn't like it either, so she went back to normal oils.
The only thing I still need to get, are Artisan brushes for WMO.

Angelina

greywolf-art
08-06-2010, 02:33 PM
I am 67 years old and cannot afford the best so I bought Reeves. I bought cheap so if I didn't like it, I would just throw it away.

TBH Reeves are such poor quality I wouldn't base your decisions on whether to use WMO's on them - They are very cheap for a reason!

also the water mixable aspect is better saved for cleanup than for thinning - W&N make a very good WMO thinner that will work much better than water for thinning.

brynmr
08-17-2010, 04:01 AM
I use W&N Artisans and almost never use water so I don't have that tacky problem. I love these paints.