Leonardo's "Lady With An Ermine" - Discuss

[gladysharon]

Hello all,

Here's a couple of questions...

1) What do you think about Leonardoda Vinci's portrait piece called "Lady With An Ermine (Cecilia Gallerani)"? What does it mean...in your own explanation?

2) If you were given an opportunity to re-interpret this art piece as one of your own...but must be related to the original piece, what would it be??


Care to have this discussion?

[babybrush]

funny this came up. I'm not reallys sure what you want to discuss here, but in 9th or 10th grade, i copied this piece in acrylics for a school project on Da Vinci. It was alot of fun, though i really didn't try at the time to make it "mine" or reinterpret it in any way, it certainly was a learning experience. I'm interested in what people have to say on this. Da Vinci is one of my favorites.

Bethany

[Niv]

I'm very rusty on my art history but off the top of my head I'd say this was a Madonna (no, the one not on MTV) reference.

I do wonder which one is Lady and which one is Ermine?

[gladysharon]

The lady is the wife of a duke

The ermine is the animal...

[AndyRichardson]

Ok, going with the spirit of your question. I don't know anything about that painting. However, having a pet ferret, I know that such critters can be quite fearless and seemingly aggressive to those who don't bond with it. My immediate response to the painting is that the lady can charm the most aggressive and fearless creature. She doesn't have eyes for the artist, and yet the ermine looks like it is visually warning the artist to keep his distance. I have seen that exact same scene when my wife is handling our ferret. The ferret has bonded with her, and not so much to me.

Now I'm looking in my book on symbolism, where it says that an ermine in winter coat of white symbolizes purity. Additionally, since the lady is thought to be the mistress of Lodovico il Moro, whose family emblem was an ermine, then Lodovico is her clinging and protecting ermine!

Hmmm, I guess I wasn't too far off the mark. But I'm still wondering why the lady is so distracted by the light. Ignoring the artist is one thing, but she seems to be intently looking back at the light for some reason other than discounting the artist. She doesn't seem alarmed, and the ermine isn't concerned about the light. Wonder if the light symbolizes some religious thing? Light of God perhaps?

[AndyRichardson]

I'll save my comments about how i would interpret the subject as my own 'til later..want to see what others come up with.
What are you up to Glad..?

[Niv]

I should clarify my Madonna statement. I seem to recall that some early painters used religious imagery in portraiture to flatter and please their patrons. Also, religious symbolism was widely accepted and used and understood by the educated society. The lady in this painting has an otherworldly, virtuous quality and in a traditional Mary/Jesus pose is holding the white (pure) baby-of-sorts. Also, it is implied that she is treating the ermine like a baby but didn't give birth to it. At least I hope so. LOL

[JeffG]

Originally posted by gladysharon
2) If you were given an opportunity to re-interpret this art piece as one of your own...but must be related to the original piece, what would it be??


I think Frank Zappa (http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/zappa/albums/Weasels_Ripped_My_Flesh/11.html) did the best interpretation on the theme.

[Niv]

Originally posted by JeffG


I think Frank Zappa (http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/zappa/albums/Weasels_Ripped_My_Flesh/11.html) did the best interpretation on the theme.

LOL!

[gladysharon]

quote:
Originally posted by JeffG


I think Frank Zappa did the best interpretation on the theme.





-Haha...what does that artwork mean really? Care to explain?

[mame]

OOPS. Sorry, Andy. Didn't see the first time that you already said it all....

This is a portrait of a "high" lady - evident by the rich clothing and the shaved eyebrows (a fashion of the time). She is obviously well taken care of - clothing, jewelery, this beauty's face or hand are not those of a peasant.

The ermine is a symbol of purity and beauty.

(I'm not telling who this is a portrait of or who it was for)

I think Leonardo may have had a crush on this beauty.

[SanDL]

I thought Leonardo didn't have such crushes? On such beauties anyway.

[mame]

I have heard there are rumors.....;)

[SanDL]

Oh, I see. You meant the ermine. And it's wonderful shape.

[gladysharon]

Hey sorry...
What does the Frank Zappa artwork mean? I'm abit confused.

Anyone care to explain?


Are there many other close/similar interpretations in comparison to Da Vinci's work? I guess just by looking at the piece, different people have great opinions on what it's about!! ;)

[JeffG]

In all seriousness, the portrait of a girl or child holding a small animal as an iconographic symbol was a quite common medieval/rennaissance theme. I've always been partial to Raphael's Young Lady with a Unicorn (http://www.mezzo-mondo.com/arts/mm/raphael/RAF004.html). and have done 2 copies of it.

As far as the Zappa cover, it just immediately comes to my mind whenever I see the "Lady with an Ermine". That's just how my mind works.

Believe me, you don't want to know what the Isenheim altarpiece brings to mind.

[mame]

Yes I do (you obviously don't know me very well).

[gladysharon]

Wow, Raphael's artwork really does look alike to Leonardo's work! It does make me believe that Renaisance painters paint the same theme!

[Niv]

Originally posted by JeffG
In all seriousness, the portrait of a girl or child holding a small animal as an iconographic symbol was a quite common medieval/rennaissance theme.

JeffG - By any chance do you know why this pose was popular (or what it meant to the painter or patron)? People in those days did little without a very elaborate theoretical underpinning.

[JeffG]

Gee, now you got me curious about da Vinci's Lady w/Ermine:

A quick search popped up 2 interesting articles:

An extensive essay on this painting: (requires Adobe Acrobat:
http://www.stanford.edu/~gjanni/cekleov_alice.pdf

An essay on the iconography of the ermine and how it specifically relates to this work:
http://f01.middlebury.edu/FS010A/students/n075.htm

Both of these are very interesting articles and discuss theories on the painting that are very different than my assumption that it was of the genre of portraits of young girls commissioned to show off their charms and station for potential suitors.

But, I do know that portraits similar to this (but usually not as well done) would be made as advertisement. The fathers would have these made and the portrait would be sent to other nobles all over Europe to convince them that the daughter would make a good match, either for their sons or for themselves. Real and mythological beasts would be included (or hinted at by appearing on jewelry or other props) because of a universally understood Christian virtue they represented, or because they had a tie to the family's crest (or a pun on the name) and would serve as a reminder of her lineage. Apparently Henry VIII was convinced to marry one of his wives (I forget who) from a portrait like this by Holbein, and was quite dissapointed when he saw that Holbein flattered her a bit too much.

[Niv]

Originally posted by JeffG
Both of these are very interesting articles and discuss theories on the painting that are very different than my assumption that it was of the genre of portraits of young girls commissioned to show off their charms and station for potential suitors.

Very interesting articles. Thanks for posting those.

Originally posted by JeffG
Apparently Henry VIII was convinced to marry one of his wives (I forget who) from a portrait like this by Holbein, and was quite dissapointed when he saw that Holbein flattered her a bit too much.

LOL Some things never change...

[AndyRichardson]

Jeff, great references! (though I only took time to read the first one).
Wonder what the painting looked like before all the restoration work had been done? The effort to emulate Leonardo's painting should try to emulate the original composition, not the *******ized version extant today. The missing window view (lost during restoration work)sure makes the lighting difficult to interpret.
I noted one interesting comment about the slight smile in the lips, but not the eyes. I understand that it is practically impossible for people to synchronize their eye and lip muscles so that the natural smile can be formed consciously. If Leonardo captured an exact likeness and she posed the facial expression, its no wonder it doesn't look right. Reading some symbolic significance to that fact is a bit over the top. Had to chuckle when that one guy thought she looked like a weasel!:D

[AndyRichardson]

Just finished the second article Jeff.
I read elsewhere that Cecilia wrote about the protrait being done by Leonardo, and it was decided that the portrait was done when Cecilia was between 18 and 21, not when she was 10! The oversized ermine (and her hands) could be accounted for better by the reasonable hypothesis that Leonardo used a lens to project her likeness for the drawing, the hands and ermine, being closest, become distorted as a result.

[WI_plain_aire_paintr]

I recently had the opportunity to view this painting up close -- about 3 feet back and behind a plexiglass window. I have never gone out of my way to view art from this era, but this particular painting is spectacular. He sure could paint!!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Oct-2002/ermine_lady.jpg
The official audio tour of the exibit in Milwaukee mentioned a lot of items in this thread. There still is a bit of mystery about the painting, the subject, and the painter.

Dennis

[AndyRichardson]

From SanDL:"I thought Leonardo didn't have such crushes? On such beauties anyway".

Mame: "I have heard there are rumors....."

I read that Leo went for the sitter for old Mona Lisa. He leaned the other way (but very repressed about it) until he was 50, then things changed for him. Course, all this comes from old Sigmund Freud, so who really knows?
p.206, On Art and the Mind, By Richard Wollheim, Harvard University Press (1974)

[gladysharon]

Hey WI_plain_aire_paintr, where did you get that picture from? It's cool that the pictures' on a building. Do you know where's the place this is taken?