Using Liquin Original

[Alex Sunder]

OK, I know this topic was covered a zillion times. But I never found myself in the position of needing the use of this product till now. So, for those who cant stand seeing this old discussion, again, I apologize.

Heres how to use the product, from the W&N website:
1. How does the "fat over lean" rule apply to the use of Liquin?

Fat over lean is better understood if considered as ‘flexible over less flexible’. When painting in layers, the proportion of medium used in each layer should be increased. The higher proportion of medium makes subsequent layers more flexible and prevents the painting from cracking. This rule has traditionally been kept by adding more and more oil to the solvent used. However, as Liquin is now more commonly used, it is the Liquin content which is increased. There is no need to use oil as well. Following this may appear to be against the “slow drying over fast drying” rule. However, the increase in flexibility obtained, will be sufficient to handle any movement upon drying of the marginally slower drying lower layers.

So, please, bare with me: the proper use would be to add a little bit of liquin on the first layer and keep adding more with each new layer. This, according to W&N, is done to assure more elasticity on the final layers, and less on the first layers. Right?

But, here is my point: Liquin was supposed to DRY super fast, so, if I add MORE liquin with each layer, that means my NEXT layer will always dry FASTER than the previous one... that means, if my top layer is drying faster, the movement will make my paint film crack... or am I missing something?

Any info on those who already tryed to paint with layers using Liquin Original with success, would be GREATLY appreciated. Im about to begin my most important project for college (the last one) and Im really worried about this.

[NancyMP]

I started using Liquin Original before there was a WN website (that I knew of) many years ago. I think they are just trying to get you to use more Liquin. It's marketing. When you're using Liquin, the fat over lean principle is not stood on its head, it's just not as necessary to be all that picky about it.

Using more Liquin in subsequent layers will lead to increase in glossy areas, if you like gloss. It can actually be annoying. I use Liquin at the beginning to start a painting, and go to straight oil color during the painting process. I like to paint directly, and I like to start with dark colors and build up to the lights, so Liquin is very handy for me. Thin darks and thicker lights.

If I'm doing a grisaille and a glazing of oil color over it, I use Liquin to thin down the glazing oils.

[dcorc]

if I add MORE liquin with each layer, that means my NEXT layer will always dry FASTER than the previous one... that means, if my top layer is drying faster, the movement will make my paint film crack... or am I missing something?

well, that point is dealt with in the quote from W&N, above:

Following this may appear to be against the “slow drying over fast drying” rule. However, the increase in flexibility obtained, will be sufficient to handle any movement upon drying of the marginally slower drying lower layers.

Personally, my practice when using Liquin has been to maintain the same amount in subsequent layers - and to keep that amount minimal.

(I'll also mention - to save him the trouble - that our member Jive Dadson (jdadson) routinely jumps into all discussions on Liquin, if he spots them, and gives his opinion that the best amount to include is none at all :D :p - http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/search.php?query=liquin&searchuser=jdadson&exactname=0&starteronly=0&forumchoice[]=0&childforums=1&titleonly=0&showposts=1&searchdate=0&beforeafter=after&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending&replyless=0&replylimit=0&searchthread=0&searchthreadid=0&saveprefs=1&quicksearch=0&searchtype=0&exclude=&) and hit "search now". )


Dave

[Songwind]

So, please, bare with me: the proper use would be to add a little bit of liquin on the first layer and keep adding more with each new layer. This, according to W&N, is done to assure more elasticity on the final layers, and less on the first layers. Right?

I believe this is a bit of a misrepresentation of the fat-over-lean rule.

You do not have to change the amount of fat between layers. So you can have the exact same "fatness" of paint from start to finish.

Fat-over-lean means that if you *do* have layers with different amounts of fat in them, the fattest ones have to be on top.

[Alex Sunder]

Nancy, Dave and Eric, thank you very much indeed for the great info!

Jive Dadson (jdadson) routinely jumps into all discussions on Liquin, if he spots them, and gives his opinion that the best amount to include is none at all :lol:

Im planning to use the SAME amount on each layer and wait around 48 hours before begin the next one. That should do the trick...

Anyway, thanks again!
AL

[TheBaron]

Use Robersons Glaze Medium,Alex it flows better,dries faster,doesn't tack up in the bottle ie doesn't go thicker everytime you open the bottle,stays liquidified throughtout.

As for Liquin,pffft! use the same amount every layer.

[Alex Sunder]

George, I would love to try the Robersons Glaze Medium, trust me. But the thing is that Liquin is easy to find here, and I can buy anytime with prices not too high. Besides, I already bought a 500ml bottle of Liquin, and loads of W&N brushes (Azanta Black series) so my budget right now is very low!

As for Liquin,pffft! use the same amount every layer.
:lol:
I will do that George! Thanks for the tip!

[NancyMP]

Alex, I bought the big bottle one time. Be careful to keep the lid very tightly sealed. My big bottle dried up before I could get the use of half of it! So now I just buy the 75 ml bottle, and usually get through all of it.

George is right about the drying out factor. The trick is to not leave the bottle open while you're using it. I pour out as much as I think I'll need for a painting session, into one of those plastic carry-out containers like you get from Chinese carry-out duck sauce, or Taco Bell salsa containers. That way you can re-seal them. They're not totally air-tight; they'll dry out in those containers, too, but it takes a day or so.

I really like Liquin, but I wish they would bottle them in dark glass. I think it might help them stay liquid longer. Does anybody have any suggestions as to what to do if it starts to gel in the bottle? I thought about turps or mineral spirits, but was afraid I would just make it worse.

[Alex Sunder]

Be careful to keep the lid very tightly sealed. My big bottle dried up before I could get the use of half of it! So now I just buy the 75 ml bottle, and usually get through all of it.
Nancy, thanks a LOT for the great tip. I didnt knew this thing could dry up SO fast. Thats a downside for sure.

I pour out as much as I think I'll need for a painting session, into one of those plastic carry-out containers like you get from Chinese carry-out duck sauce, or Taco Bell salsa containers.
We dont have those here, unfortunally. But I do have PLENTY of baby food little glass jars, the lid has some kind of rubber inside, wich in contact with the glass does a pretty good job for the air tight issue.

I will pour some liquin onto the baby food jars so I can use it some for my painting session, keeping the big bottle very well closed. Thanks for the tip!

Now, this made me think about onother issue: Is there any problem on having a half empty 500ml bottle of Liquin? I mean, Im worried about what will happen to the product when half of it is gone and just half is in the bottle.

This is great info. Next time, I will buy the 75ml bottles!

[dcorc]

Is there any problem on having a half empty 500ml bottle of Liquin? I mean, Im worried about what will happen to the product when half of it is gone and just half is in the bottle.

Yes, you would be better moving it into smaller bottles.

[TheBaron]

I've explained this one before but...

Can you obtain earwax removal fluid in your country Alex?

This small bottle comes with a glass and rubber dropper,all you do is empty the contents out, wash the bottle and dry,then pour some liquin in and use the dropper to draw some out of the bottle,this way the original bottle of liquin stays fresh until you need to fill up the earwax bottle again.

These also give you an exact amount of liquin for every paint pile added.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21K0vothb4L._SL500_AA200_.jpg

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens7589932module63416922photo_1255690416ear-wax-droppers.jpg

[Alex Sunder]

Yes, you would be better moving it into smaller bottles.
Thanks Dave! I will do that.

Can you obtain earwax removal fluid in your country Alex?

This small bottle comes with a glass and rubber dropper,all you do is empty the contents out, wash the bottle and dry,then pour some liquin in and use the dropper to draw some out of the bottle,this way the original bottle of liquin stays fresh until you need to fill up the earwax bottle again.

These also give you an exact amount of liquin for every paint pile added.

I never saw this earwax removal fluid around here, but we have some other health products that comes with the same type of bottle.

This is a neat solution I guess. I didnt think in anything like that because I thought Liquin Original was too thick in order to be sucked by the dropper. I didnt opened the bottle yet, so, I was not sure about the consistency.

I will try that George! Im just not sure if I will be able to get these kind of bottle.

Also, I thought about tubing the thing, with the same tube (aluminum) we use on paint.

[oldboy]

Use Robersons Glaze Medium,Alex it flows better,dries faster,doesn't tack up in the bottle ie doesn't go thicker everytime you open the bottle,stays liquidified throughtout.

As for Liquin,pffft! use the same amount every layer.

Certainly agree about the Robersons Glaze medium, have had a 500ml bottle for over ten years and it is as good as the day purchased ,there is no sign of sediment what so ever.

Alex,

You could for the first layer or two, cut the Liquin with 50% turpentine and build up to neat Liquin,

[Alex Sunder]

Oldboy, thanks for the input! Wow, ten years in the bottle?
Try to cut the Liquin with turps seems like a good idea for the first layer. Thanks again!!!

AL

[madmonkey]

alex, the baby food jars work great for keeping smaller portions "fresh."

Hint, be careful to wipe the top of the jar and lid clean lf Liquin because it can dry enough to cement the lid to the jar. This is experience speaking. In the event this happens, a hammer comes in handy:evil: .

[hblenkle]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577796&highlight=liquin

It is correct about pouring a little from the big bottle into a more frequently opened little bottle, which is used for daily painting use. In the link above it says about alkyd mediums that OMS can be added like a cap full to the medium to make up for evaporated OMS or turps escaping when the bottle is opened. I don't know if you need to put a cap full in every time the bottle is opened but it does make sense to replace the OMS or turps that escapes.

[sidbledsoe]

Alex, just in case you weren't aware of this, liquin seems to be fairly thick in the bottle but it is thixotropic meaning that when shaken or mixed up it becomes much less viscous so I always shake up the bottle before pouring some out.

[Alex Sunder]

It is correct about pouring a little from the big bottle into a more frequently opened little bottle, which is used for daily painting use. In the link above it says about alkyd mediums that OMS can be added like a cap full to the medium to make up for evaporated OMS or turps escaping when the bottle is opened. I don't know if you need to put a cap full in every time the bottle is opened but it does make sense to replace the OMS or turps that escapes.
Hbenkle, thanks for the tip!!!

Im tubing my Liquin as soon as I get my new aluminum tubes tonight. Problem solved. Really, I dont wanna keep moving the thing from jar to jar.

Sid, I bought the thing but havent had a chance of open it, so, I have no idea of its true nature. Looking at the unopened bottom, it looks like it have a thick body, muddy pinkish color. Good to know that it´s thixotropic, easier for tubing it! Thanks for the tip!!!

[Alex Sunder]

Alex, just in case you weren't aware of this, liquin seems to be fairly thick in the bottle but it is thixotropic meaning that when shaken or mixed up it becomes much less viscous so I always shake up the bottle before pouring some out.
Sid, you were absolutly right. Liquin is VERY thixotropic, and was WAY easier to tube it than any paint I made. To tube a whole 500ml. bottle took me 40 minutes and consumed 4 tubes of 120ml. The process is pretty easy and quick to do it. You just have to make sure to "tap" pretty well, many times, the tube, so no air bubbles accumulate inside.

I tested to pour some on my glass palette and it´s wonderful.

Anyway, here is some pictures of the procedure, tools and the resulting tube.

Thanks everyone!
AL
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Mar-2010/99798-liquin01.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Mar-2010/99798-liquin02.jpg

[Alex Sunder]

Just a little note: I made a drying test of liquin. I was very surprised by the sensational feeling of flow you have with the product, very velvet like.

I used around 20% of liquin on my paint pile. I used Titanium White and Cadmium Yellow, surely slow drying paints. After 48 hours, the swatches are still pretty wet.

Also, I used around 50% of liquin on my paint pile on this second test. After 48 hours, both colors are pretty much dried to the touch, but the areas where there is more impasto, theres still wet paint.

So... Liquin promises to dry your paint in 24 hours, but if you stick to the safety rule (20% of medium to your paint pile) then Liquin is not so fast.

"Sacrifice" the archival quality in order to obtain super fast drying doesnt sound right for me...

[TheBaron]

Good luck on your tubed Liquin,Alex...yer gonna need it. :)

[highsaint]

When you begin using Liquin on your paintings, be sure to use it in every layer. Here is a recipe for Oil Glazing Medium, that is not so fast drying. Mix equal parts of Turpentine, Stand Oil, Refined Linseed Oil, Damar Varnish, plus a few drops of Cobalt Drier.

[giancarlo80]

I address this to anyone who wants or feels a need to read it.
I use 1 part stand oil, 1 part damar varnish and 5 parts turpenoid. for my medium.
Liquin has a 16 point type label that says DANGER on it so I don't like using mediums that make up a large part of my painting procedure. I've also used turpenoid alone with my paints while attending workshops and it works fine.
Usually I tend to bring along a canvas bag along containing a small amount of painting medium amongst other crap.
It may be wise to not to drink any of this stuff unless your suicidal.
Seriously, use what you like but with caution.
When my paints begin to harden I use an eyedropper bottle to apply one drop of oil of cloves in the paint mixture.It'll be workable for a few days
Empty eyedropper bottles can be purchased at your local pharmacy or of course online.
Paint and draw as often as you can and paint from the masters and you'll do fine.