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arnoud3272
11-04-2015, 03:14 AM
Very well done, m_od :clap:.
You're right on track :thumbsup:.
Question - I assume the oval where the Kleenex comes out has to have perspective as well? Of course. But that is for class 4 :).

m_od
11-04-2015, 06:53 PM
2nd attempt at 4 boxes - To make sure I am thinking correctly: I have two boxes in 1p perspective (pasta and glasses) and two boxes in 2p perspective (dominos and brewers)?
Not very good but hopefully with correct perspective.

Next up table.:crossfingers:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Nov-2015/1976998-4_boxes_2nd_attempt.jpg

arnoud3272
11-05-2015, 11:10 AM
Correctly drawn, m_od :clap:.
And that is what counts. IMO all that theoretical (mathematically based) explanation of 1PP, 2PP, 3PP is not useful for an artist. AND it is very often confusing beginners. Remember the third principle "perspective is not a property of objects".

The way you drew it only the glasses box is in 1PP; the other is a "degenerate" 2PP, where the second VP is so far away that it doesn't matter. If in formal 1PP, it must share the VP with the glasses box (red lines). Why ? perspective is a property of parallel lines. In formal 1PP, the front "lies in the plane of the paper", so all 4 front edges run parallel. Because these are "cubes", the 4 side edges form a set of parallel lines as well, hence only one VP. If confused ... just forget... Juggling with these terms is only good for showing off.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Nov-2015/142886-m_od-4_boxes.jpg

m_od
11-06-2015, 04:16 PM
Perspective :evil:

Guess it will take a lot of practice drawing what I see.....easier to say than do :)

Anyways here is my table - chose a drafting table my wife uses for sewing. I didn't draw it anywhere near as it is but for me the table was complicated enough.

I tried to draw the top plane first by freehand. Then I checked to VPs off the paper (using said drafting table as it is fairly large:) ). Had to correct...Did the same for most of the process....drew each area then correct. Otherwise a mess with the eraser:angel:

Had a hard time setting the back edge (where the drawers are) back under the table top. It sits out further than the legs as the top rotates up at angles. Guess I should have put the leg more away from the edge.

I was sitting on a tallish chair looking at it from the front left corner about 5 feet away maybe.

Also I tried to go back over the straight lines to practice drawing straight lines....back to Lesson 1 !!!:lol:

Chair next.

Thanks for the reply arnoud and the explanation!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Nov-2015/1976998-Drafting_Table.jpg

arnoud3272
11-06-2015, 04:33 PM
Very well done, m_od :clap:.
Correct all over :thumbsup:.

m_od
11-07-2015, 03:29 PM
Hi arnoud,

I am drawing the chair at a different view than I have other perspective exercises, see photo (elevated). I was having trouble getting it right so I went back to drawing boxes elevated and seemed to get close. Finally, I gave up and took a picture. Opened up in paint and tried to pull the VPs to an HL. However, I seem not to be able to get all of them anywhere near same VP. I put red lines on ones I thought should go to same VP to the right.

May be over thinking it....But when I cant see the top or some of the parts of the box are hidden....it is harder for me to draw. The chair in firs classroom also gave me fits for similar reason. I think the front edge of the seat appeared as same or almost same point as back left corner.

Did I choose some edges that should not go to same VP?

Oops the top back of the seat should also go to VP to the right...did not show it in red.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Nov-2015/1976998-Chair_Photo2.jpg

arnoud3272
11-08-2015, 03:45 AM
m_od -
I'm not sure I understand the problem. Your analysis is completely correct.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2015/142886-m_od-Chair_Photo2.jpg

Some VL's do not tally exactly, but are you sure your chair is correct, as it is particularly on the decorated back? Anyway, linear perspective is only a tool to avoid blatant errors.

m_od
11-08-2015, 06:31 AM
Thanks Arnoud.

Problem drawing is all :). For some reason I have trouble with this view.....So when I had trouble I went back to the science of it and thought I saw issues with the chair or my understanding. When I ran paint lines (admittedly not very straight) and a yard stick it seemed that some of the lines were quite a bit off.... More so than what you showed....as I did the same thing with the white space.

So will concentrate more on drawing and use as tool. :)

arnoud3272
11-08-2015, 08:00 AM
:thumbsup:

m_od
11-08-2015, 09:50 AM
So I worked on the chair - Mostly eyeballing with a little help measuring for placement....and appears I need to correct a number of things. Back and legs for starters. And I forgot to draw one slat. Will correct but wanted to show intermediate work and see if anything else I need to fix.

Chair without paint vp lines tried to make less detailed chair and more square:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2015/1976998-Chair_no_VPs.jpg



VPs to the right -
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2015/1976998-Chair_with_Right_VPs.jpg

VPs to the left.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2015/1976998-Chair_VPs_to_the_left.jpg

PS - my apologies for dragging out....just want to make sure I understand before next class - as that looks like it has perspective too.
And seems a lot or all of other objects / styles have perspective one way or another? :)

m_od
11-08-2015, 02:39 PM
And corrected chair or so I hope :crossfingers: :crossfingers:

Again lots of erasing to fix. I would think I fixed one thing and mess up another. Guess I will need to get copying paper and transfer to another sheet?

Put the two together so I could look easier - as far as proportions looks narrower and taller especially in the back rest. Maybe arcs back to far as well....which I left. But did not leave curve back legs.

Anyways here it is for review. :) Thanks!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2015/1976998-Corrected_Chair_1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2015/1976998-Chair_Photo.jpg

arnoud3272
11-08-2015, 03:27 PM
Good job, m_od :clap:.
I admire your ambition and perseverance :).
One small remark, not on the subject of perspective, but an illustration of the motto of this classroom. Draw what you see, not what it is in your recollection.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2015/142886-m_od-Corrected_Chair_1.jpg

Well done in this class, please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

m_od
11-08-2015, 03:36 PM
Thanks Arnoud.....darn I saw that :) Or I knew something wasn't right when I was trying to make it a vertical line! And was trying to make the space look right between the bars. Even that is wrong after looking at your lines. But was trying to simplify the details and rushed....


See you in next class. :D

KTTHEARTIST
11-14-2015, 11:39 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Nov-2015/1976612-12226878_1093930103951270_28294466_n.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Nov-2015/1976612-12242247_1093930030617944_1254991977_n.jpg

arnoud3272
11-15-2015, 08:07 AM
Well done so far, Katy :clap:.
Two side remarks:
A. The kleenex box is completely correct, but the other box is mathematically correct, you understand linear perspective, but it doesn't look nice. The VP's are really too close together, the bottom corner is too sharp.
B. "Further away looks smaller" is a universal effect. If you point your camera or phone in an oblique way, the back is further than the front. Observe the perspective distortion in your image.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Nov-2015/142886-camera-square.jpg

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

lhandal
11-16-2015, 05:18 AM
Here are my drawings for class 2. The first drawing was created with a ruler to establish the basic shape, horizon and converging lines. The second drawing is part created free hand and part created with a ruler particularly for the converging lines and table top. The third drawing was created using only free hand. The shading was created using the techniques from class 1

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2015/1977297-class02-perspective-01.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2015/1977297-class02-perspective-02.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2015/1977297-class02-perspective-03.jpg

arnoud3272
11-16-2015, 05:09 PM
Well done, lhandal :clap:.
You clearly have a good understanding of perspective :thumbsup:. The biggest hurdle with perspective is to apply it consistently. But it is also helps to pinpoint errors: no doubt that there is something wrong with the "back" legs of the table.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2015/142886-lhandal-tafel.jpg

And for the perspective itself: don't forget that the VP's of horizontal lines lie on the horizon line -- and the horizon line is horizontal. It is Ok to loosen up but there is a strong deviation here.

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

lhandal
11-17-2015, 07:46 AM
Thanks Arnoud, yea strong deviation. I wanted to fill the A4 page
as much as possible with the table and placed other blank pages
left and right of the drawing page but ran out of space on the
surface i was using so i had to "loosen" up a bit :evil:

AgnesZ
11-28-2015, 10:54 AM
I did these a little while ago but haven't had the time to post them.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Nov-2015/1975503-perspective-1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Nov-2015/1975503-perspective-kleenex.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Nov-2015/1975503-perspective-objects.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Nov-2015/1975503-perspective_chair.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Nov-2015/1975503-perspective-table.jpg

arnoud3272
11-29-2015, 10:50 AM
Good job, Agnes :clap:.
Perspective is not really difficult to understand, and you clearly have no problem with that. But the hard part is to apply it consistently, that needs a lot of attention until it becomes automatic.
Revisit the railroad pictures in the first post, second principle: "there can be only one HL"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Nov-2015/142886-agnes-kleenex.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Nov-2015/142886-agnes-tafel.jpg

The drawing of the 4 boxes needs a more fundamental remark:
All lines in a set of parallel lines share the same VP. BUT: it means that a set of lines that converge to that same VP necessarily belong to the same set; another set of lines must have its own VP. Box 4 has a different orientation, so no way that it can converge to the same VP as the other 3 (which are correct :thumbsup:). Also, the other side of box 4 must converge to a VP as well. Further away looks smaller.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Nov-2015/142886-agnes-4.jpg

You understand the foundation, and there is any occasion to practice perspective again in class 3, so please move on :thumbsup:

AgnesZ
11-30-2015, 10:39 AM
Thank you for the feedback Arnoud. This was clearly a lot more difficult than I initially thought! I'll revisit the first post and will practice some more.

JLeigh1212
12-27-2015, 07:22 PM
So when I saw the name on Class 2 I thought, I have this in the bag! Then I read the intro and I thought, Uh oh, I have no idea what's going on here! Then I read through some of the post and thought, I think I got this . . .
Well, the proof is in the pudding. I'll find out if I understand this or not soon. Here is my Exercise 2 example. I will start working on the Exercise 3 arrangement rough in shortly and post that for guidance before adding the detail. Thanks for any and all input!

Exercise 2 - Cubes in 1 & 2 pt. perspective
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Dec-2015/1978865-Floating_Cubes_-_1__2_pt_perspective.jpg

Drawing out cubes is one of my go to doodles. I haven't done these with horizon line and vanishing point in mind for a long time. It was a lot of fun :) I was a little worried about getting the perspective right on a 2 pt with the VP off the page, but I think it turned out ok!

arnoud3272
12-28-2015, 12:43 PM
Very well done so far, JLeigh :clap:.
Caution: don't get too much fixed on 1PP, 2PP, nor on objects. Perspective is not a property of objects; and 1PP, 2PP are mathematical principles, not related to the real number of VP's in the drawing or painting.

:wave:

JLeigh1212
12-28-2015, 02:51 PM
I arranged some boxes last night and did a rough sketch. I thought they were looking ok until I tapped a paper bag to the back and tried to follow the vanishing lines to a horizon. Then the cursing and muttering began :) I was definitely falling into the over thinking black hole. Here is my first and second draft. For as much grief as the second draft caused me I think I'm right the track!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Dec-2015/1978865-Exercise_3_-_4_boxes_1st_draft.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Dec-2015/1978865-Exercise_3_-_4_boxes_2nd_draft.jpg

The top left edges of the top two boxes still look a little off to me, but perhaps the issues are stemming from sitting to close to my subject. The boxes were about 1 to 2 feet from where I was sitting with my paper.

Thank you for your feedback Arnoud :) If this passes inspection I will fill in the detail and start on the tissue box!

arnoud3272
12-28-2015, 04:37 PM
Very good, that's the best way to learn fast - first sketch, then check and correct.
Not only for perspective.
The result here is fine :thumbsup:. A slight deviation for VP's that lie far away does not matter.
Keep up the good work :wave:.

JLeigh1212
12-29-2015, 03:39 PM
And here they are in all of their boxy glory :)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Dec-2015/1978865-Exercise_3_-_4_boxes_final_draft.jpg

On to the box of tissues!

arnoud3272
12-29-2015, 03:47 PM
:thumbsup:

JLeigh1212
12-29-2015, 05:53 PM
Here is Exercise 4a, a box of tissues. This time I did the initial sketch then instead of taping it to a paper bag to follow the vanishing lines I used my pencil to roughly measure the parallels and redrew to make sure the edges further away from me were slightly smaller than those closer to me.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Dec-2015/1978865-Exercise_4a_-_Box_of_tissues.jpg

My DH and I are visiting family for the holidays and I'm not sure I have seen a chair and table in the house with rectangular seat/top and straight legs, so the last two drawings might be a few days in coming. Then of course it's no more vacation and back to work, so who knows :)

Thank you for the encouragement Arnoud, it's a great boost to the confidence while muttering over old boxes and tissues in front of my MIL!

arnoud3272
12-30-2015, 05:22 PM
I used my pencil to roughly measure the parallels and redrew to make sure the edges further away from me were slightly smaller than those closer to me. Very well :thumbsup:.
But "further away looks smaller" is only the first rule. You missed the second rule: "there is only one horizon line".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Dec-2015/142886-jleigh_-_Box_of_tissues.jpg

Measuring is only one kind of check you can do with a pencil. Another, as important, or perhaps even more important, is checking the angles. (And of course, a pencil is always at hand, but a knitting needle or a bicycle spoke is more accurate)

Pamraye
01-03-2016, 06:09 PM
Hello again,

Arnoud, I wanted to post the first exercises for this class to get your feedback, before I tackle the chair and table. So my understanding is that in drawing, all you are trying to achieve is a general, gradual convergence of parallel lines, rather than perfect perspective? So it is adequate to confirm that none of your parallel lines are diverging in the distance? And you only pursue this convergence for lines that are receding away from you toward the horizon, not for lines that are headed "up into the sky" or "off to the sides"?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jan-2016/1978726-01031601_551x800.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jan-2016/1978726-01031602_800x551.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jan-2016/1978726-01031603_800x551.jpg

I can see that there are some lines on the Kleenex box that are not following the rules of perspective! And you are sure to discover some more than that-- it is easy to forget to check all relevant lines. Thank you for your instruction!

arnoud3272
01-04-2016, 12:50 PM
Well done, Pamraye :clap:.
With the exception of that line on the kleenex box that is clearly off, you did a good job.

Now for the theory: all parallel lines converge to A vanishing point. The only exception are lines "in the plane of the paper" like the front edges of your theoretical cubes.
-- for VP's that are far away, "guestimating" how they run is acceptable enough; drawing a short stretch will show you the gross errors. (See for instance my post before yours)
-- "up into the sky" I assume you meant "not horizontal". They have a VP as well, but not on the horizon. All horizontal lines, and only they, converge to points on the horizon. There is a reason for this linguistic correspondence :).
But this is a basic class on perspective. Many aspects, even important ones, are not treated here.
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Pamraye
01-04-2016, 09:20 PM
Ok, here are my chair and table. It is hard to depict the correct angles! I would get one angle looking right, only to discover it made another angle look inaccurate.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jan-2016/1978726-01041601.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jan-2016/1978726-01041602.JPG

arnoud3272
01-05-2016, 05:29 AM
Well done, Pamraye :clap:.
You clearly have no problems in understanding perspective :thumbsup:.
As for everyone, the difficulty is now to apply it consistently, there was one slip of the pencil in the chair drawing. I made it more apparent with the VL's, but I'm sure that when you look at it again the next day, preferably from a distance, you'll see it also "free eye".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jan-2016/142886-pam-chair.JPG

Good job, please move on :thumbsup:

sbp
01-06-2016, 08:21 AM
Wanted to be certain I am on the right track before starting the chair and table

arnoud3272
01-06-2016, 01:04 PM
It is a good start, Susan :thumbsup:.
The theoretical cubes are well done.
The 4 boxes exercise: that really shows whether all the principles have been absorbed :evil:.
The three most important principles - apart from understanding what a VL is -, are illustrated in the first post by the railroad examples. Not difficult to understand, they are intuitively accepted as true, but very difficult to keep in mind.
1. further away looks smaller: boxes A,B and D are basically correct, one edge is clearly off in box D.
2. there is only one HL: basically correct for those 3 boxes
but
3. perspective is not - repeat not - a property of objects, but of parallel lines: those 3 boxes have the same orientation, their front edges run parallel; as they are cubic, forcibly their sides run parallel as well. They must share one and the same VP.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jan-2016/142886-susan-1.jpg

Box C: the VP on our left looks good, and that is well enough for a very far VP. But on our right, it is a bit chaotic. The VL's should come together in one point, and that point should be on the same horizontal line as the - sole - VP of the three other boxes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jan-2016/142886-susan-2.jpg

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Sam B
01-10-2016, 07:37 AM
here are the boxes, tissue box, and a table...
Is there any way of knowing how far to put the vanishing points in a 2-point-perspective or do I need to just estimate by viewing?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2016/1977835-tissue_box.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2016/1977835-table.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2016/1977835-boxes.jpg

arnoud3272
01-10-2016, 01:14 PM
Very well done, Sam :clap:.
Clearly, you understand perspective.
Is there any way of knowing how far to put the vanishing points in a 2-point-perspective or do I need to just estimate by viewing? 1: When drawing from real life, you cannot be wrong if copying correctly, it is physically impossible for them to be too close together.
2: When drawing from imagination, the normal "rule", e.g. applied by architects, is that the 2 VP's are so located that the angle between the lines of sight from the observer to the points is 90 į.
3: A simple check is that the nearest bottom angle can never be more acute than 90 į

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2016/142886-sam-table.jpg

Mistrust any (internet) tutorial that shows you an acute angle.
Good job, please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

KateMcC
01-29-2016, 02:42 PM
This class shows me the value of posting the exercises as you go! I wonder if this comes easy to anyone??

Exercise 2: One-point perspective

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Jan-2016/1980418-Class-2---One-point-perspective-Ex-2.jpg

arnoud3272
01-29-2016, 05:11 PM
Good job so far, Kate :thumbsup:
It is indeed advisable to post as you proceed, but "first read all the instructions".
I'm not too keen on the emphasis in most tutorials on 1PP, 2PP, 3PP. These are mathematical principles that don't help to apply perspective, and they can be confusing: there can be a large number of VP's in a composition, and many of them can be 2PP points, but only one 1PP and also only one 3PP :evil:. If you understand, fine, if not just forget it, you don't need it as an artist.
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

KateMcC
01-29-2016, 09:16 PM
Thank you, Arnoud,

Although I can't claim complete understanding I think I get the idea anyway :)

I struggled with my boxes tonight-- partly because it is the first time I have tried to have VPs off the page. Oh my. I am learning how much my eyes deceive me. I tried to draw what I saw and when I looked at it said, "That is impossible," erased, and tried again. Finally, when I tried to imagine the VPs off the paper and made more adjustments, I look at some of these and again say, "That can't be!" I attempted to check my VPs in Photoshop but have NO idea how to do that yet, so I will appreciate your feedback before I try to do these from other viewpoints. Thanks so much!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Jan-2016/1980418-boxes.jpg

arnoud3272
01-30-2016, 08:32 AM
Almost correct, Kate :clap:.
I attempted to check my VPs in Photoshop but have NO idea how to do that yet How-to: "resize canvas" - NOT "resize image" - to at least double the original size (you may prefer to resize the image down first)
Now you have room to draw VL's with a fine brush. Preferably on a new layer, so you can freely erase and restart.
"That can't be!" Indeed !
It is sometimes useful to look at what other people did. The pupil just before you had exactly the same problem.

You know what VL's are, but you are too concentrated on these mathematical inventions (that's also the source of your problem above). As an artist it is more productive to look for the fundamental rules, as explained with the railroad pictures.
Principle 2: there can be only one HL.
Some freedom is definitely OK, but your VP's are completely fanning out.
And for instance A and B are so different that it shows even without extending the VL's beyond the border of the paper.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/142886-kate.jpg

You're going in the right direction , now to find the correct trail :thumbsup:

reynard80
01-30-2016, 10:05 AM
These are my drawings for class 2. Didn't have a Kleenex box, so took a shoebox. And sorry for the bad pictures, didn't have a good camera available :(

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/1980431-IMG_20160130_155918.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/1980431-IMG_20160130_1559082.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/1980431-Untitled2.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/1980431-Untitled3.jpg

KateMcC
01-30-2016, 11:16 AM
Almost correct, Kate :clap:.
How-to: "resize canvas" - NOT "resize image" -
Thank you!! I am learning many things from you :-)

You know what VL's are, but you are too concentrated on these mathematical inventions I know you are right based on how it felt when I was doing the drawing!

Principle 2: there can be only one HL. Yes, this is the fundamental thing I forgot to take into consideration!

You're going in the right direction , now to find the correct trail :thumbsup: Thank you, Arnoud, for the encouragement and generosity with your time and talent :) You are a wonderful navigator :-) I will try again!

arnoud3272
01-30-2016, 01:12 PM
Reynard - in the good direction, but this is a very general issue: draw what you see, not what you imagine. Unless you're drawing manga of course :lol:. It is so important to draw from real life, not from imagination, until you have a very clear memory of what is correct.
The perspective of the left box is completely wrong, on two counts:
A. "further away looks smaller" the right edge is further away than the left: we are looking at a corner
B. "all lines in a set of parallel lines go to the same VP". That is exclusive. Lines that do not run parallel with that group do not have the same VP. The blue lines are not parallel, obviously; but because these are rectangular forms, the yellow lines cannot be parallel either.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/142886-boxes.jpg


So the left box does not share a VP but has 2 VP's of its own.
You got the basic idea, but it needs still a bit of polishing :).

reynard80
01-30-2016, 02:23 PM
Thanks for the in-depth feedback Arnoud!

The perspective of the left box is completely wrong, on two counts:
...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/142886-boxes.jpg

So the left box does not share a VP but has 2 VP's of its own.
You got the basic idea, but it needs still a bit of polishing :).
I think you mean the right box? I corrected the perspective, I think.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/1980431-correction.jpg


Also, I tried another exercise, with boxes that are not facing forward, but are placed at an angle. However, I find it hard to draw this perspective right, because I don't know how to see if the 90-degree angles of the corners of the box (marked red) are drawn correctly in perspective. Or, should these boxes be drawn with their own VP's?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/1980431-turned.jpg

arnoud3272
01-30-2016, 03:09 PM
Reynard - This is an exact repetition of the problem of the (indeed) right box in the previous exercise. Now look at the boxes, not at your geometrical contraptions.
"All lines in a set of parallel lines converge to the same VP"
The yellow lines are the parallel lines of box A. There is another set, perpendicular to it, but that "lies in the plane of the paper" and does not converge; because "further away looks smaller" and both end points are at the same distance from the viewer, NOT further away.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/142886-reynard.jpg

Now, look carefully, where are the parallel lines of box B? That are the lines that must converge to a VP on the HL; and there are 2 sets of them as on box A, but this time both converge.
:wave:

reynard80
01-30-2016, 03:29 PM
Reynard
...
Now, look carefully, where are the parallel lines of box B? That are the lines that must converge to a VP on the HL; and there are 2 sets of them as on box A, but this time both converge.
:wave:

I see.. I think I understand now. Is this more like it?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2016/1980431-Untitled.jpg

arnoud3272
01-30-2016, 04:23 PM
Yes, exactly :clap::thumbsup:

KateMcC
01-30-2016, 04:31 PM
Arnoud-- I have a very basic question. While I know VPs exist off the paper, should the horizon line always be on the paper?

Thank you!

arnoud3272
01-30-2016, 05:07 PM
Arnoud-- I have a very basic question. While I know VPs exist off the paper, should the horizon line always be on the paper?

Thank you! Kate - In theory there is no problem in putting the HL off the paper. Because every painting is a crop of the field of view. But it is not logical. The HL - aka Eye Level - is where you put the eye level of the observer. Not the observer OF the painting, but the observer IN the painting. It sounds bizarre but I mean e.g. in a landscape, where you suggest the eye level of a person strolling through the landscape.

But yes, it can be done for particular effects, and it is a regular trick in comics.
:wave:

reynard80
01-31-2016, 05:31 AM
Yes, exactly :clap::thumbsup:

Thanks :)

But while thinking about it, I'm still a bit confused.

If I understand correctly, the HL is a (horizontal) plane on the eye level of the viewer. Everything below (and above) converges to this plane. But, this would mean that train tracks do actually not converge to the real horizon (the 'edge of the world' on a beach), but to a plane slightly above. Is that correct?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2016/1980431-question.jpg

arnoud3272
01-31-2016, 08:37 AM
Reynard -
If I understand correctly, the HL is a (horizontal) plane on the eye level of the viewer. It is not a plane but a line (Horizon Line), but yes, it is the same as the eye level.
Everything below (and above) converges to this plane. Not quite, only horizontal lines converge to the horizon line - there is a reason for this linguistic correspondence :).
Other parallel lines, for instance of a roof, converge as well, but to a VP above or below the HL. But how to find them is advanced perspective, this class is only for horizontal lines.
But, this would mean that train tracks do actually not converge to the real horizon (the 'edge of the world' on a beach), but to a plane slightly above. Definitely not so, the "edge of the world" IS the eye level.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2016/142886-EyeLevel.jpg

If you don't trust geometry, try it out: let a friend take place between you and the visual "real" horizon. If you're of about the same height and the ground is flat, your head, his/her head and the "edge of the world" will be in one line.
:wave:

reynard80
02-01-2016, 12:36 PM
Reynard -
It is not a plane but a line (Horizon Line), but yes, it is the same as the eye level.
...
If you don't trust geometry, try it out: let a friend take place between you and the visual "real" horizon. If you're of about the same height and the ground is flat, your head, his/her head and the "edge of the world" will be in one line.
:wave:

I see, thanks for explaining!

rowlger
02-01-2016, 02:30 PM
Hello again. I drew a herd of cubes (and cube-like shapes). It was more fun than I thought, perspective is a thing that has always scared me away from drawing but it might not be so terrifying after all... :lol:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Feb-2016/1980114-image.jpeg

And now on to the boxes!

arnoud3272
02-01-2016, 04:20 PM
:thumbsup:

simon ess
02-04-2016, 10:52 AM
Hi
I hope it's ok to do this.

I thought I'd post these to make sure I'm on the right track before doing the rest of the exercises.

1 point
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2016/1980557-DSC_4844.jpg

2 point
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2016/1980557-DSC_4845.jpg

Having fun with 3 point. I could get obsessed with this :)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2016/1980557-DSC_4846.jpg

Cheers

arnoud3272
02-05-2016, 10:43 AM
No problem so far, Simon :clap:.
But take care: when constructing perspective, instead of drawing from life or reference and using VL's to check the perspective, there is a strong tendency to put the VP's much too close together. Like in your rightmost examples of 2PP and 3PP.

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

rowlger
02-09-2016, 09:15 AM
I hope these pictures are clear enough. Unfortunately I'm working in crappy lighting conditions and my camera is subpar, sorry for that.

This is my tea box. I put it straight in front of me. The squiggly lines are a pattern I had no patience with :angel: The letters in the front were a challenge! I liked that. But I lost my patience at the top of the box.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Feb-2016/1980114-IMG_0684.JPG


For the crate below I used a triangle measure thing (geotriangle?) to calculate the angle of the front and the side and I drew light help lines, after which I filled in the details. The crate itself is a bit crooked and upside down, because I use it as a side table :)

I sketched standing and looking down on it, added the helplines and went back between standing and sitting for the details. I enjoyed this, I love bare wood. I also love drawing trees :lol:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Feb-2016/1980114-IMG_0685.JPG

arnoud3272
02-09-2016, 03:06 PM
rowlger -
For the crate below I used a triangle measure thing (geotriangle?) to calculate the angle of the front and the side.... You think too much :lol:.
Using technical drawing tools tunnels you into technical drawing principles. The correct reasoning for a beginner in perspective is explained in the first post with the picture of the railway.
The first rule is "further away looks smaller". Really, that should not come as a surprise :).
Now what did your technical measuring come up with:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Feb-2016/142886-row.JPG

This is the way of the engineer. It is not wrong, but it is not perspective, it is (a kind of) isometric projection.
The way to measure is like you see in almost all caricatures of a painter: looking over the top of his brush handle. But in this case with the handle horizontal. Observe how the back edge is smaller than the front edge.
Take care next exercise :thumbsup:

amorozova
02-13-2016, 01:49 PM
Hi everyone! Here are 2 steps of second class. I' ve noticed mistakes and pointed them. Well, the task will be done once more, but I'd like to hear your point of view on this stage. And of course I will do boxes. BTW. Should I attach the photo of the box from the point I will draw it?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2016/1981117-IMG_20160213_214155.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2016/1981117-IMG_20160213_214210.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2016/1981117-IMG_20160213_214219.jpg

arnoud3272
02-13-2016, 05:12 PM
Good job so far, Anna :clap:
Except of course that design that no carpenter could possibly construct :lol:.

One ("housekeeping") remark: try to aim your camera in a right angle to the drawing. Observe the distortion. In fact this is a nice illustration of what we study in this class: "further away looks smaller".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2016/142886-camera-square.jpg

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

amorozova
02-16-2016, 03:58 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Feb-2016/1981117-IMG_20160216_120747.jpg
Here I am )) have a nice tuesday ))

arnoud3272
02-16-2016, 01:21 PM
Anna - You do very well on the geometric forms.
But I'm a bit confused by the "real" box. Can you explain why the top plane seems to obey a different optical effect than the side planes? (further away looks smaller)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Feb-2016/142886-anna.jpg

Keep it up :thumbsup:.

amorozova
02-17-2016, 08:12 AM
Oops! Well, practice-practice-practice..... I will bring it to perfect, some way or other! :)

arnoud3272
02-17-2016, 09:41 AM
:thumbsup:

amorozova
02-17-2016, 01:43 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2016/1981117-image.jpg
There's still smth wrong with my head :D

arnoud3272
02-17-2016, 03:43 PM
Anna - There is a famous book on drawing with the title "Draw with the right side of the brain" A simplistic vision in the 70's was that the left half of the brain did the thinking and the right half did the undistorted observation (and the feeling). The biggest problem in learning to draw is that you don't see what is really there, it is before you realize distorted by what you know. You know perfectly well that the top plane of the box is rectangular, so you "see" equal back and front edges. But you will agree that the back edge is further away, won't you? And further away looks smaller.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2016/142886-anna.jpg

A very common caricature of a painter is the guy looking over the point of his pencil or brush handle. Measuring, very important to learn it. For example this site (http://www.drawinghowtodraw.com/stepbystepdrawinglessons/2010/01/how-to-find-measurements-proportions-and-angles-to-draw-with-pencil-thumb-method/). Then you realize that you "saw" it wrongly.
Of course the difference is proportionate, so you'd better practice on large objects, e.g. a big table.
:wave:

amorozova
02-18-2016, 12:27 AM
Arnoud do you recommend this book on drawing with right side of the brain? I looked through it some time ago and did not find much on academic drawing.
(I will take big bureau for referrence this time)

arnoud3272
02-18-2016, 03:17 AM
Arnoud do you recommend this book on drawing with right side of the brain? I looked through it some time ago .....
Not really if you've already seen it; only to people who are attracted to the fun exercises in it.
....and did not find much on academic drawing.
If interested in academic drawing, you certainly should practice in "measuring" with thumb and pencil. BTW, a better tool is a knitting needle or bicycle spoke or so - smaller diameter, so more accurate.
:thumbsup:

amorozova
02-22-2016, 06:21 AM
Hello. Here is another box. Husband says its totally crooked )))
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Feb-2016/1981117-IMG_20160222_142818.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Feb-2016/1981117-IMG_20160222_142838.jpg

arnoud3272
02-22-2016, 01:12 PM
Sorry, Anna, I'm in agreement with your husband :angel:

I don't understand.
"If you do what you always did, you get what you always got"
I cannot see why you still insist on ignoring the phenomenon of "further away looks smaller" I'll admit that it is far easier to see on railway tracks than on nearby objects. But that is where we use "tools" like measuring, or drawing VL's. You drew some VL's, but than it should be obvious that the sides of the top plane do not converge.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Feb-2016/142886-anna.jpg

I don't know why you included the reference, was it to prove that I was wrong?
But I was right, wasn't I ?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Feb-2016/142886-anna-ref.jpg

The biggest difficulty to draw or paint realistically - even for experienced artists - is to see what IS there, not what you think it should be. You know that the box is rectangular, your brain is fooling your observation in seeing the theoretical form, not the real form.
It is not really a problem of understanding perspective, it is a general problem but the error is very obvious with rectangular forms.
Don't despair, just check "further away looks smaller"
:thumbsup:

amorozova
02-22-2016, 01:44 PM
Arnoud oi, please, do not look for deep sence in attaching the referrence. ;) It was just to indicate the point from which I saw it when was drawing, not to prove anyth, or offend you. Btw, your lines on referrence help a lot! May be I should use such lines on references as you did, for a first time. Or it will make more mess in my head?
One side is ok...progress :D
Keeping on moving :)
PS: got a set of Polychromos for present...so nice that I'm afraid to touch them

arnoud3272
02-22-2016, 04:47 PM
....Btw, your lines on referrence help a lot! May be I should use such lines on references as you did, for a first time....
Anna - Yes ! By all means, use everything that can clarify what you are looking at :thumbsup:

amorozova
02-24-2016, 04:23 AM
Good afternoon. Couldn't find photo editor on PC. Will get it later. But anyway. Here is chest of drawers itself from the point I seated and my work. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Feb-2016/1981117-IMG_20160224_122135.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Feb-2016/1981117-IMG_20160224_122912.jpg

arnoud3272
02-24-2016, 10:27 AM
That is correct, Anna :thumbsup:.
Now that is one hurdle taken :clap:. I think you practised enough on isolated objects.
The next challenge is to draw several boxes as seen in one "composition".
Hint: think hard about principles 2 and 3 - refer to the picture of the railway tracks in post #1.
There is only one HL
Perspective is not an attribute of objects, but of parallel lines

:wave:

JLeigh1212
04-06-2016, 11:32 AM
Hello Arnoud! It's been a few months but I'm ready to take on the tissues box again. Since there has been such a gap do you want me to start lesson 2 over with the floating cubes and the multi box composition, or will it be ok to start off with the tissue box and then move on to the table and chair? Thanks :)

arnoud3272
04-07-2016, 07:52 AM
Hello Arnoud! It's been a few months but I'm ready to take on the tissues box again. Since there has been such a gap do you want me to start lesson 2 over with the floating cubes and the multi box composition, or will it be ok to start off with the tissue box and then move on to the table and chair? Thanks :)
Welcome back :thumbsup:.
I trust you didn't forget the theoretical basics that you learned previously. So, yes, continue where you left.
:wave:

dashkin
04-12-2016, 02:08 PM
Hello

This class was really time-consuming for me. Lot of new information and even more practice. Here are my boxes:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2016/1982182-pic5.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2016/1982182-pic4.jpeg

And table (I don't have a rectangle one except this library one)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2016/1982182-pic1.jpeg

dashkin
04-12-2016, 02:15 PM
And these are my chairs. First, I've tried to find VPs of the chair from class 1, then I tried draw simple chair but I got something awkward, probably because VPs are too close to each other. Hope, third time I got it right.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2016/1982182-pic6.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2016/1982182-pic.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2016/1982182-pic2.jpeg

arnoud3272
04-13-2016, 08:21 AM
Well done, Daria :clap:.
Good results, it was worth the effort :thumbsup:.
Please move on to class 3 :music:

JLeigh1212
04-17-2016, 06:04 AM
It surprises me how much trouble this one box is giving me compared to the arrangement of multiple boxes! But so far, to me, this outline of my tissues box still looks ok-ish after two days. The bottom facing corner looks off to me but I can't figure out why! If this one is approved then I will add the details!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Apr-2016/1978865-Exercise_4a_-_Box_of_tissues_take_2.jpg

And because I had to wait for my phone to charge before I could take a picture of the tissue box, I worked on the table. (As I preview this post the top far corner of the table looks off, so I'm going to see to that now and re post my table image.)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Apr-2016/1978865-Exercise_5_-_Table.jpg

I still feel like I'm not getting something. I think I understand the basic principals, but when it comes to applying them on a piece of paper I'm totally lost without guide lines. I'm considering installing GIMP and overlaying lines on a larger canvas like you do for corrections to check my work as I go.

JLeigh1212
04-17-2016, 06:18 AM
When I adjusted the edge I found I had to move the leg too :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Apr-2016/1978865-Exercise_5_-_Table_2.jpg

arnoud3272
04-17-2016, 01:12 PM
Jleigh - Very good job :clap:.
You clearly understand the theory of perspective.
When you've completed the tissue-box, you may move on to class 3 :thumbsup:.

JLeigh1212
04-17-2016, 10:36 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Apr-2016/1978865-Exercise_4a_-_Box_of_tissues_final.jpg

Thanks Arnoud! See you in Class 3 :)

Rachael1
05-02-2016, 09:31 AM
Hi
Having a go at this but it is a completely new concept for me! Could you advise at this point if I am on the correct lines! No pun intended:).
The first tissue box pic didn't look in proportion so I altered it in for second pic, still not convinced.:) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2016/1983860-Photo_on_02-05-2016_at_14.10.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2016/1983860-Photo_on_02-05-2016_at_14.11.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2016/1983860-Photo_on_02-05-2016_at_14.19.jpg

Should there be more lines to vp. Also could you clarify please it was mentioned at start of this tutorial, something like all sets of parallel lines should be shown except those on image plane! What is the image plane?
It's all back to front but I suppose that won't make a difference!

Many thanks for your time.

arnoud3272
05-02-2016, 01:19 PM
Rachael - Good first try :thumbsup:.
One general remark: observe the really disturbing camera distortion :crying:. See the bottom edge of the paper -- and what I think must be the horizon line, well, it should be a straight line (and horizontal).
Take care to aim your camera/phone straight to the drawing. Or, to hint at an answer to your last question, perpendicular to the (paper/image) plane:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2016/142886-camera-square.jpg

Now to the basics.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2016/142886-rachael.jpg

It seems that you did not apply the very first principle, further away looks smaller. The back edges are further away than the front edges, no doubt. So, the back height and width must be smaller than at the front, and the vanishing lines would converge.
Furthermore, at the beginning make sure that you check all edges. The red lines are missing in your analysis.
And of course, the vanishing lines must come together on the horizon line, which is definitely not the case here.
Perspective can be daunting, but there is really nothing to understand on the first principle, you see that everyday everywhere. Further away looks smaller. Where perspective comes in is to solve the problem "how much smaller?"

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Rachael1
05-02-2016, 01:40 PM
Thank you Arnoud.

That is really useful feedback. It helps when you add the correct lines. I will try to adjust or start afresh.
Cheers

Rachael1
05-03-2016, 07:34 AM
Right I have another work in progress I hope to get feedback on. Can you tell me if I am getting nearer what you are looking for? Can I start the four boxes yet? In paper it looks okay but on camera looks a little high at front left! Many thanks for your help and patience.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-May-2016/1983860-DSCF0344.jpg

lep0224
05-03-2016, 04:10 PM
I seem to making this harder than it should be. So many lines...Can you tell me if I'm on the right track?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-May-2016/1983753-IMG_1069.jpg

arnoud3272
05-03-2016, 04:38 PM
Rachael - Well done, you took the first hurdle :clap:. Yes, move on to the 4-boxes assignment :thumbsup:

arnoud3272
05-03-2016, 05:14 PM
Lisa - You're off to a good start :thumbsup:
But I'm puzzled by some lack of consistency.
"Further away looks smaller" The problem is "how much?" Perspective "theory" offers some tools to correctly size things. The basic tool is the "vanishing line", e.g. for a cube it shows the correct height of the edges. So the lines I emphasized in blue are correctly drawn VL's, one shows clearly where the corner needs corrected. But what are the red lines teaching ? They have no relation at all to the size of the edge, just running between a corner and an arbitrary point.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-May-2016/142886-lisa.jpg

To be of any use, a line must connect at least two points of the subject with the VP. It can be much more, e.g. a row of telegraph poles.
:wave:

Rachael1
05-05-2016, 04:22 AM
Hi

Just checking I am getting this right before moving to table and chairs! Many thanks for guidance :) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-May-2016/1983860-second.jpg

arnoud3272
05-05-2016, 01:26 PM
Almost correct, Rachael :clap:.
The boxes are correctly drawn, taken in isolation :thumbsup:. But there is a subtle problem when the intention is to draw a complete coherent scene. Which is what you normally will do in "real" work. It is principle 3: perspective is not a property of objects, you must analyze the complete set of parallel lines
Boxes A and B face the same direction, the fronts run parallel. But because they are cubes, all sides make a right angle with the fronts, so all 4 sides necessarily run parallel as well. And - perspective is a property of parallel lines - those two boxes must share the same VP.

But it is OK to move on to the next problems, table and chair. Hint: see the problem area as a box with big holes in the sides :thumbsup:.

:wave:

Rachael1
05-06-2016, 01:54 AM
Thank You Arnoud. Having read of my "difficulty" in previous posts I did consider that "property". I imagined it to be the parallel gap between the two items!! However I don't really understand this and wasn't sure whether some of my lines were indeed wrong or whether I needed a new vp. Basically to try and understand it better would you be able to show me where the correct vp should be? I have already started a chair and am finding it extremely challenging. Many thanks once again.

arnoud3272
05-06-2016, 05:49 PM
Thank You Arnoud. Having read of my "difficulty" in previous posts I did consider that "property". I imagined it to be the parallel gap between the two items!! However I don't really understand this and wasn't sure whether some of my lines were indeed wrong or whether I needed a new vp. Basically to try and understand it better would you be able to show me where the correct vp should be? I have already started a chair and am finding it extremely challenging. Many thanks once again. Rachael - Look again at the double railroad tracks at the start of the class. They have one VP, not each a VP.
Where to put that VP? If you draw from imagination you can put it anywhere. -- Well, on the HL and not too far from the middle --. If drawn from life, draw what you see.
:wave:

Rachael1
05-08-2016, 04:04 PM
Thanks for response Arnoud.
I have pondered on your advice and studied the double track. By Jeeves, I think I get it! No doubt future tasks will reveal my true understanding. :)

arnoud3272
05-09-2016, 11:10 AM
:thumbsup:

Rachael1
05-15-2016, 04:31 AM
Hi Arnoud

Could you please advise on this table???? I am really struggling to get the back leg to be visible, as it clearly is, and still go to a vanishing point!! I am posting actual table and my latest attemp-wip. I have lightly sketched in the troublesome leg to where it should be visible, at the very least. As you can see ,well below, the perspective line. The table legs do angle out, is that part of my problem?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-May-2016/1983860-DSCF0359.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-May-2016/1983860-DSCF0357.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-May-2016/1983860-DSCF0360.jpg
Relatively happy with chair.
Thanks in anticipation of your expert eye. :)

Rachael1
05-15-2016, 10:09 AM
Decided to move table slightly as wondered if it perhaps wasn't in the right postion for 2 point! Think I might be heading in the right direction. Used your previous advice on seeing it as a box! Just a rough drawing but thought I would submit. Not entirely happy with the back bottom spar, it certainly needs moving more under the table. As does the back leg.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-May-2016/1983860-DSCF0364.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-May-2016/1983860-DSCF0363.jpg

Thank you.

arnoud3272
05-15-2016, 04:59 PM
Rachael -
Very good job :clap:.
The chair is very well drawn. There is a little oversight :) :

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-May-2016/142886-chair.jpg

The table drawings (both :thumbsup:) show that you understand how to analyze the perspective. That it "doesn't look right" is not because of perspective issues, but because of a wrong width - height proportion.

You did very well in this class, it is time to move on to class 3 :thumbsup:.

Rachael1
05-16-2016, 02:16 AM
Thank you Arnoud, that is very encouraging.
I will not be looking at class 3 (in case I am tempted) as I need to concentrate on work projects!! See you in a month or so. :)

Paichka
05-27-2016, 07:25 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-May-2016/1984876-20160527_191308.jpgHere are my attempts. Apparently perspective is a thing I'm not so hot at. :-)http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-May-2016/1984876-20160527_191331.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-May-2016/1984876-20160527_192236.jpg

arnoud3272
05-28-2016, 05:27 PM
Good job, Paichka :clap:.
The table, chair and kleenex box are correct :thumbsup:.
I'm a bit concerned about this one:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-May-2016/142886-paichka-1.jpg

The red lines are completely out of context. A vanishing line must show you the correct position / size. But it is always possible to draw a line between 2 points, it doesn't say anything about the correct position of the points.
And the blue lines: remember the image with the railroad tracks. All VP's lie on the same HL. Those blue lines will clearly come together on a completely different line.

In general you seem to understand the subject matter of this class, so please move on to the second class on perspective, class 3 :thumbsup:

ruiting
05-29-2016, 04:18 PM
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7653/27264438481_5641c74d05_c.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7394/26727706424_bed23be27f_c.jpg

I tried to draw with hand only at the first exercise, but when it comes to the second one, it becomes really frustrating to draw with hand only so i got help from a ruler. Thank you for checking it. :heart:

arnoud3272
05-30-2016, 02:59 AM
Well done, ruiting :clap:.
I see you have no problems in understanding perspective.
Please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

lep0224
06-01-2016, 08:25 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Jun-2016/1983753-image.jpeg

I believe I've fixed the issue with the tea tin (I hope). I find it easier to draw an imaginary box with the correct lines than trying to get the correct angles on a real object.

arnoud3272
06-01-2016, 01:06 PM
Very good so far, Lisa :clap:
I find it easier to draw an imaginary box with the correct lines than trying to get the correct angles on a real object. But the basic purpose of these classes is to learn to see the big abstract form in the objects around us (cube, cylinder, sphere, cone). For instance a table is just a cube with big holes in the sides. So (as an exercise) you could start to draw an imaginary cube, then draw the object in it.
:thumbsup:

lep0224
06-02-2016, 08:56 AM
Very good so far, Lisa :clap:
So (as an exercise) you could start to draw an imaginary cube, then draw the object in it.
:thumbsup:

Face-palm. So simple when put that way. Thank you!

Brew62
06-19-2016, 01:42 PM
Can you please tell me where I can find the guest lectures? Thanks

arnoud3272
06-19-2016, 04:56 PM
Can you please tell me where I can find the guest lectures? Thanks
Hi,
The link is in the first post of class 1.
:thumbsup:

GeneH2016
07-04-2016, 04:05 PM
Getting the VP off the paper was a challenge. I decided to use tic marks on the edge of the paper after playing with with angles, chords of an arc, reference measurements / ratios off the image, and calculating then tracing angles for the 3-box sketch. Way too much work the way I was doing it.

I decided to get tic marks on the edge by taping paper to my monitor and tracing reference lines using a straightedge and charcoal pencil. 10 minutes and done. Here is the "show your work" for this assignment. I will upload finished 1, 2, 3 VP drawings when the 3-box drawing is complete. (Can I skip the chair and table if my 3 box is good enough? heh.

Here is the reference photo, quick sketch with screwed up angles (fun) - GLAD we had the straight line practice, reference measurements (tedious), trace lines to get EDGE TIC's (satisfying)

[ tic line tutorial http://scientificartist.blogspot.com/2005/09/perspective-tips-1.html ]

arnoud3272
07-05-2016, 07:55 AM
Good study, Gene :thumbsup:
It is a nice geometric construction, but personally I think this is far too complicated. And how would you apply it "in the field" ?
I prefer the simple VL's. With a bit of experience you can very well see the serious errors without the need to draw the whole VL. Without going beyond the edge of the paper, it is clear that the back legs are not correct.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jul-2016/142886-far-VP-estimate.jpg

I will see what your results will be :thumbsup:
BTW, I'd prefer to see a table drawing. You'd be surprised how many pupils cannot draw a correct table. It shouldn't be so difficult, a table is just a box with big holes in the sides :lol:.

GeneH2016
07-12-2016, 10:06 PM
prev reference photos and sketches

CHALLENGES THIS ASSIGNMENT:

All drawings - addendum: I am going to lay off most of the shading for a while for class drawings until we get to that part. I like light drawings, but they keep coming out flat;not enough different shades or values. I'm using a light hand and trying to use the correct pencil for the value I want. Good practice actually, getting the errors out of the way.

Having trouble showing different parts of the boxes without making them look like line drawings.

- PERSPECTIVE DRAWING:
1) just had to stay focused. Should be no errors ... (famous last words)

- TABLE DRAWING:
1) perspective is off. I think I followed my picture too close and did not compensate for the wide lens perspective distortion in the legs. Maybe they should have been vertical?

2) Left table edge VP is off, crosses another part of the same side.

3) Front-Left leg is off compared to the rear-left. Doesn't line up in "the box." See #1 above. I should have compensated.

- CEDAR BOX BLACK BOX:
1) Can't say you didn't warn me. The left box (black box) has 2 problems with lines meeting the VP, 1st is the inside white line, does not meet the "east" VP. I sketched in last minute and didn't catch the error until done. 2nd is the top groove lines again don't line up properly to the "west" VP.

2) Black Box, west edge all smudgy. Was too dark and tried to fix. Issues with 6B and carbon pencil. Again, no loss, getting the issues out of the way. Not sure how to get black-blacks without grinding the pencil into the paper.

2) I still have trouble getting good blacks and enough different shades or values in the light Cedar Box. I think I am afraid of going too dark.

arnoud3272
07-13-2016, 03:54 PM
Good job, Gene :clap:.
Judging by your self-critic it is clear that you understand fundamental perspective :thumbsup:.
But then my question, why did you not correct it ? I guess because you didn't see it before completely finished.
In all "academic" learnings on drawing and painting, the most stressed principle is "first the big shape and the correct proportions, then the details". Check and recheck the first outlines, before even thinking about details, or shading for that matter. It is true that many self-taught artists start by a detail and develop from the inside out. Some are very successful in the end, but it is not the most efficient way to learn.
The table legs: of course they should be vertical :(. That is another basic advice, ignored very often: do not draw from photos, at least not for simple objects like a table, a box, a bottle. Draw from real life. Your progress will be much faster.

So you understand the subject matter of this class, please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

GeneH2016
07-13-2016, 04:57 PM
Good job, Gene :clap:.
Judging by your self-critic it is clear that you understand fundamental perspective :thumbsup:.
But then my question, why did you not correct it ? I guess because you didn't see it before completely finished........ another basic advice, ignored very often: do not draw from photos,
:thumbsup:

Legit questions. At the stage of the Cedar Box Black Box that I both saw the errors and decided I didn't like the drawing as a whole, and didn't think it could be cleanly fixed - it needed a complete re-do.

Regarding the issue with photos - I had accepted this distortion of lines (and even some bowing) from short focal length as part of the photographic process, and until starting drawing, did not see it as a handicap - it was a feature. We used large format to correct for leaning buildings and areas of focus. (front/back swivel/tilt camera function)

All that said - thank you for your CC. I expect more. :thumbsup:

Ratchet
07-18-2016, 08:13 PM
First, cubes and kleenex box http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Jul-2016/1986131-kleenexpost.jpg

Table and Chair
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Jul-2016/1986131-tablepost.jpg

arnoud3272
07-19-2016, 03:46 PM
Well done, Ratchet :clap:.
I see that you understand it correctly. The final test is the - coherent - sketch of 4 boxes. Don't laugh, it is more difficult than you think.
:thumbsup:

Ratchet
07-19-2016, 04:05 PM
Thanks Arnoud.

I will draw 4 coherent boxes. That will take me a while because I will set it up as a still life with real boxes. I have never drawn anything from life and I am tired of drawing what amounts to diagrams and guesswork. Real Boxes, If I Can. (Big If)

Anything Drawing is very difficult for me but I enjoy the challenge.

Ratchet
07-19-2016, 07:31 PM
Here is a one minute freehand sketch. I sketched my glass pencil jar (it does taper toward the bottom) my crayon box, my case for my drafting instruments and my Handbook.

I will measure it all out and set up vanishing points but that is the rough sketch of what I am going to draw. I think the drafting instrument case is longer. So I will check that.

Just a rough sketch, because it was 4 boxes in front of my face.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2016/1986131-sketch_1.jpg

arnoud3272
07-20-2016, 11:07 AM
Well done, Ratchet, not bad at all for "freehand perspective" :thumbsup:
Smart move to start drawing from live, it is the fastest way to progress.
:wave:

Ratchet
07-20-2016, 12:19 PM
Thanks Arnoud

I will have the corrected drawing after I check the angles and correct the proportions.

From this double check, I may find out how to judge angles and proportion correctly in sketching, if these angles and proportions are very much incorrect.

Ratchet
07-24-2016, 02:54 PM
4 Coherent Boxes, glad you said this was difficult for anyone. I thought it was only myself who had difficulty with perspective.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jul-2016/1986131-boxes.jpg

arnoud3272
07-24-2016, 03:33 PM
Ratchet -
You definitely understand the basics :clap:.
But you're a bit too obsessed with the theory :(. The way of the artist is to sketch first, even when from imagination, then check the perspective. You constructed one completely impossible box.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jul-2016/142886-ratchet.jpg

Anyway, you fulfilled the aims of this class, so please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

Ratchet
07-24-2016, 05:02 PM
Thanks Arnoud

I wondered what was wrong with the box. Now it looks obvious. Thanks!

I have never done any of this. I can draw one dimensional boxes, lollipop trees and third grade level houses. This was a real test.

I will stack up some boxes and see if I can sketch them, then correct the perspective.

Made by Marble
08-14-2016, 07:06 AM
Here are the results....
I got a question about the vanishing points. What if they are to far away and doesn't fit on your paper? I struggled with that during the Kleenex exercise.

Exercise 2, Vanishing points and Exercise 3, first 2 boxes.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2016/1987698-Drawing_101_002_Part_2_and_3.JPG

Exercise 3, 2 more boxes....
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2016/1987698-Dawing_101_002_Part_3_2.JPG

Exercise 4, Tissuebox and table. I wanted to draw the tissue box bigger, but didn't know what to do with the vanishing points. Couldn't get it correct.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2016/1987698-Drawing_101_002_Part_4_2_3.JPG

Excursies 4, Chair. The legs are to long:( Shading was difficult.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2016/1987698-Drawing_101_002_Part_4_4.JPG

arnoud3272
08-14-2016, 03:13 PM
Good work, Marble :clap:.
I see that you understand the basics. Using it consistently is still another matter, though. The chair is a good example for answering your question about far-away VP's.
First, if not too far, you can tape a second piece of paper at the side to have more room. There are other tricks like a string with pins in the drawing board, etc. But the easiest way nowadays is to scan or photograph - you'll do that anyway for posting - and using a drawing program.
On the other hand, with a little experience, you don't need to go all the way, the beginning of a VL will already show the serious mistakes, see your chair.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2016/142886-marble-chair.JPG

Clearly not good, but what exactly is wrong? Of course you should keep the correct proportions, but ignoring that, I constructed the enveloping box. One back leg is too short, the other too long.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2016/142886-marble-chair-corr.JPG

This is a class on perspective. Your matchbox is not wrong, but it is not drawn in perspective. You drew it as for a technical illustration, as in an encyclopedia. There we draw what the thing is, we know how the sides run parallel. In realistic drawing we should draw how it is seen. Remember, further away looks smaller

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Aug-2016/142886-marble-matchbox.JPG

You did enough in this class, next class gives plenty of further practice in perspective :evil:.
Please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

Josh.Johnston
08-21-2016, 09:32 PM
It's been a long while since I started. Have had a rough time this year with free time but I want to post what I've managed so far. I also had to back track some work due to getting ahead of myself, and the classes while also working from the book :clear:. I believe I have a grasp on the concept of perspective, even though it seems difficult to eyeball for distant vp when subject is up close. I'm also trying to break the habit of jumping into details and getting away from my crutch of drawing from photo but not from life... I may have fought those demons a bit here :angel: Thanks for looking!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Aug-2016/1981205-Cube_perspectives_3.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Aug-2016/1981205-Cube_objects_1.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Aug-2016/1981205-4_box_still_life.jpg

I spent quite a lot of time on this next one, again jumping into working on details once the basics were laid out. But I think I kept perspective fairly accurate...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Aug-2016/1981205-Scene_perspective1.jpg

Thanks for looking and c&c!

arnoud3272
08-22-2016, 05:32 PM
Well done, Josh :clap:.
Please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

Moving On
08-23-2016, 08:02 AM
Hi Arnoud,

This is not the whole assignment yet, but as perspective seems to be my nemisis, I want to take my time. I did not post the cubes, but they were not too bad as used the horizon line and vp's while drawing them. I had much more trouble drawing everything and then trying to correct it. Could you please let me know if I'm on the right track with these? Thanks!

Moving On
08-23-2016, 08:05 AM
That's odd. I tried to attach two scans, but only one attahced. Here is the second.

arnoud3272
08-24-2016, 04:26 PM
Moving On -
Could you please let me know if I'm on the right track with these? Thanks! I'm a bit puzzled, one is almost correct, definitely accurate enough for art :thumbsup:.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Aug-2016/142886-moving-2.jpg

The other shows some very fundamental errors.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Aug-2016/142886-moving-1.jpg

--There is only one Horizon line
-- All lines in a group of parallel lines converge to the same point.
(the 2 boxes at the right have their front planes parallel. Because they are rectangular, the side planes must run parallel all 4 as well)
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Moving On
08-24-2016, 04:40 PM
Sadly, I drew the one with the errorsafter the other accurate one. Will keep working on it. Thanks for your help!

Moving On
08-29-2016, 10:56 PM
Well, I'm back. Hopefully these are better. Thank you for your patience!:) :)

arnoud3272
08-30-2016, 05:26 AM
Moving On - Well done :clap:.

I see that you understand the principles. The most difficult task is now to keep alert. It is very easy to oversee errors:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Aug-2016/142886-moving-chair.jpg

Good job in this class, please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

SubtleBeginnings
10-08-2016, 02:07 PM
Let's see how it goes with the evil mistress known as perspective :evil: :

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2016/1989578-perspective_box_1.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2016/1989578-perspective_box_2.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2016/1989578-four_boxes.jpeg

As of now, I only have made the cubes and the four boxes. I'll be back with the tissue box, table and chair in perspective around tomorrow or next weekend.

arnoud3272
10-08-2016, 05:31 PM
Simon - Well done so far :thumbsup:.
It is clear that you understand the basics. Two remarks:
A. I am at a loss what to think about the "box within the box"
B. All VP's of horizontal lines lie on the horizon line.

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

SubtleBeginnings
10-09-2016, 03:06 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Arnoud :)

As for the remarks, I have some questions and answers:

A) When drawing the "box within a box", I actually tried to recreate the look that Apple makes with its packaging, as it was an Apple TV box I had as one of my four boxes. For example: https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/9466754_f260.jpg

I was at a bit of a loss myself on how to do it, since in Perspective you only have one horizon line, and the results I got following my horizon line seem a bit of. So I imagined a horizon line inside the box to follow instead. If there is a better way to archive the effect, please let me know. :)

B) I'm a bit confused on what VPs aren't on the horizon line. I saw a blunder around this part of my four boxes drawing:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2016/1989578-Vanishing_points.jpeg

Was it these VPs you were referring to?

As far as I could see, I have to remember to clean up my dots, so it doesn't look sloppy. I'll do that next time. :)

arnoud3272
10-09-2016, 08:13 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Arnoud :)

As for the remarks, I have some questions and answers:

A) When drawing the "box within a box", I actually tried to recreate the look that Apple makes with its packaging, as it was an Apple TV box I had as one of my four boxes.
That is OK, but it was not clear from only the outline of the "real" box.

B) I'm a bit confused on what VPs aren't on the horizon line.
At the second (left) question mark. Those VL's would come together far far above the HL.

:wave:
EDIT:
There must have been a glitch on WetCanvas; the following picture was appended in my previous post.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2016/142886-four_boxes.jpeg

I think this would make it clear. :)

SubtleBeginnings
10-09-2016, 03:42 PM
Ahh... The back lines of the left box aren't converging to a vanishing point on the horizon line. Now your remark makes sense. :thumbsup:

I'll try fixing the issue, and see how the box looks after the fix. I think it's a great opportunity to train my eyes to see perspective errors, so I'll take it while I can.

On a side note, I really want to praise The Classroom concept you have on WetCanvas. The dialogs on the homework/assignment you have between pupil, other pupils and teacher really gives a community feeling that you miss when your learning drawing by yourself. It's what giving me the drive to become an even better artist. :grouphug:

As of status on the remaining drawings, the chair is really coming along well. I can definately see a much stronger and realistic chair, compared to the one from the first class, by way of Perspective. I'm looking forward to show you it when I've made my finishing touches. :heart:

SubtleBeginnings
10-15-2016, 02:30 PM
Another week, another shot at perspective:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Oct-2016/1989578-chair_perspective.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Oct-2016/1989578-Kleenex.jpeg

Like I mentioned in my previous post, I really liked how the chair turned out. Perspective makes the chair look solid and pop out. :cool:

The Tissue/Kleenex box also looks good, but I feel the patterns on the side and top of the box looks a bit uneven compared to the reference: https://www.kleenex.com/-/media/images/kleenex/product/product_1.png?h=203&w=217&la=en-US&hash=671F98E67230917BA7504B796771D1AE77C21673

arnoud3272
10-15-2016, 05:01 PM
Well done, Simon :clap:
Perspective wise all is correct :thumbsup:.
But don't forget perspective is only a tool, keep an eye on the aesthetic consequence. The VP's in the kleenex drawing are not far enough apart IMO, the bottom front angle is too sharp. It is less so in the reference (but still too sharp for my liking)

Very good job in this class, please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

MessyBun
10-28-2016, 12:47 AM
Yikes this really took a while for me to wrap my head around and I'm still not sure I completely understand

I know there's definitely something not right with all of them but I can't figure out what it is.

I'm 100% willing to do them again if I need to, I just need to know what's wrong :lol:

MessyBun
10-28-2016, 12:48 AM
Here's the rest of them^^

arnoud3272
10-28-2016, 05:36 PM
Christine -
Perspective has a bad name, but the basic concepts are nothing to be afraid of. There is nothing to understand on the first principle, just plain observation: "further away looks smaller". Learning to draw (or paint) realistically is in the first place learning to "see", i.e. to observe.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Oct-2016/142886-christine-box_1.jpg

What edge is further away, front or back?

The drawing of the table is correct on this first point, but contains an extremely common error. Revisit the illustration of the double railroad track. "All lines of a group of parallel lines have the same VP".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Oct-2016/142886-christine-table.jpg

Unless it is a very very old table, the top and legs run parallel :lol:.

No need to redo these. You misinterpreted however the assignment of the 4 boxes. I'd like to see one drawing of 4 boxes in a common perspective - preferably not all in the same orientation. Hint: look at the illustration of the railroad tracks "there is only one horizon line"

Anna Marie
11-17-2016, 09:09 AM
Ooh this is good it is telling me what I don't know.
Here is exercise #2 don't hold your breath for #3....yet.
Could anyone link me to the guest lecture mentioned?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Nov-2016/5027-image.jpeg

arnoud3272
11-17-2016, 04:00 PM
Good job so far, Anna Marie :clap:
The link to the "Guest Hall" is in the very first introduction in class 1 (item 3).
However, there is far less "stuff" in it than originally intended :(.
:wave:

ElenaGr
11-18-2016, 05:05 PM
Hi, these are my drawings for class 2. Some of them are 1-point perspective, some is two - I am not sure if that was right...
Elena

arnoud3272
11-18-2016, 05:22 PM
Well done, Elena :clap:.
You clearly understand the principles of perspective.
One remark on the kleenex box: the nearest corner of a cube in 2PP cannot bemore acute than 90 degrees. You imagined the VP's too close together.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2016/142886-elena.JPG

Good job, please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

ElenaGr
11-18-2016, 08:57 PM
Thank you, I see the error now!

Anna Marie
11-20-2016, 06:57 AM
Yee Gods this Class has really shown me what I donít know. Its like wading through treacle and I am teetering on the edge of the abyss called confusion. A lot of it stems from my eyes seeing one thing and my brain saying no its like this!

So where to start. I read the guest lecture on one point perspective and she said try to draw the shadows in. 2000 video clips on shadows and perspective later (Slight exaggeration) and I think i understand it. Its amazing how your brain says no it canít possibly be like that. Now i understand why i dont draw buildings.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2016/5027-Shadows_1.jpg
If I wasnít drawing boxes I would say that I am going round in circles. It has become obvious to me that when looking at a box I cant decide where eye level is or the vanishing point. On a more positive note I do know where it isnít so its not all bad.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2016/5027-Exercise_3_!.jpg
A small box at 3 different levels
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2016/5027-Exercise_3_2.jpg
Two boxes and a photo of them.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2016/5027-Exercise_3_3.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2016/5027-Exercise_3_boxes.jpg

arnoud3272
11-20-2016, 05:38 PM
Anna Marie - You're on the right track :thumbsup:.
Where is the Eye-Level?
In drawing from life, it is level with your eyes. In a photo, level with the camera(lens). On a photo you find it by constructing 2 or more VL's, where they come together (the VP) is the EL
The error that one should avoid most because it is so obvious: "further away looks smaller". Needless to say that the back edges are further away than the front ones:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2016/142886-anna.jpg

The perspective of the two boxes is OK, and it doesn't matter for this class, but we learn to draw what we see. Unless you took the photo from a different angle than while you were drawing, you turned the boxes in your mind.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2016/142886-anna2.jpg

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:.

Anna Marie
11-21-2016, 05:49 AM
The book has arrived!

Anna Marie
11-23-2016, 10:09 AM
Ok here is my next attempt at the four boxes. I shall call them Yorkshire Tea,Kleenex, Metacam and Felix ;)
This exercise is really scratching my brain into activity. I say scratching because its not comfortable but it is making me look.
842504
842505

arnoud3272
11-23-2016, 04:25 PM
Well done, Anna Marie :clap:.
You may need a lot of concentration, but it pays off! Your perspectives are OK, at least within the limits of the sketchy rendering. Which brings me to another point. I know you want to learn to draw loosely. But still I'd suggest you will learn faster if trying to work more strictly. Compare it with learning to ride a bike. You may be jealous of older kids that can show off "no hands", but still you will learn to use both hands first :lol:.

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Anna Marie
12-04-2016, 09:23 AM
Had a bit of a break from drawing as other stuff interceded. I am learning so much. I have relocated my drawing back out to my studio. I couldn't concentrate in the house even though it was warm so I am back shivering I have a small heater but also have a cat who wants to be in or out or back in again.
I digress I have some more boxes here. its funny I brought them in to scan and then noticed some of my mistakes. I don't have good eyesight for detail and I noticed how I start to draw then move forward and notice a bit of detail and then get the angles wrong.
Anyhow here are my latest goes :crossfingers: I am getting more observant and learning is what it is all about....she shivered :evil:

arnoud3272
12-04-2016, 05:23 PM
Anna Marie - You practiced very well :thumbsup:.
But there is some inconsistency. Most of the time your perspective is correct - and then all of a sudden you draw this:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2016/142886-anna2.jpeg

No mathematics involved, just an obvious observation "further away looks smaller"
"Learning to draw what you see" is in fact learning to observe not only the reference but also what you are making of it.
:wave:

Anna Marie
12-05-2016, 06:04 AM
Am I allowed to say Oh poo and make loads of excuses? :o :crying:

I do struggle with my vision to get detail correct its just something I need to deal with. I also have a terrible habit of concentrating on one part of a problem I miss the other zillion.

I will improve I promise!:cat:

arnoud3272
12-05-2016, 08:01 AM
:thumbsup:

lorianne621
12-09-2016, 04:31 AM
Arnoud,

I must thank you in advance for your patience. I fear I am having a heck of time with this project. I think I have finally grasped the concept of 1 and 2 point perspective but I do not understand what the 3rd point is. I have asked my husband to download an Epub reader for me as I have found the book from which you are working is available for free online. Perhaps if I read along something will click for me. :crossfingers: In the meantime I am going to go ahead and post my drawings to show you that I am trying to get things right though I am somewhat embarrassed by my attempts.

I seem to be able to draw the cubes okay if i draw the horizon lines and the VP first. At least I think they are okay. It is when I try to draw from real life or even from a photo that my eyes play tricks on me. A photo is a bit easier but not a lot, not for me. I only find it simple if I draw from a drawing... but I guess that is cheating. :rolleyes:

So here is my first assignment.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2016/1992187-IMG_1825.JPG


I then drew several small cubes and boxes. Here is a couple of the better ones. I know they are not quite right but I can't quite decide what is wrong. This first box was slightly wider at the top than the bottom and top was bowed. I know I didn't achieve the rounded look of the top all the way across the top. I did not have a phone with me to take a photos, so no photo to show you.:(

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2016/1992187-IMG_1815.JPG

This second box is one of the drawings that I corrected when I finally began to understand the concept of VP and how to look for which sides of my box to apply them to. I am still a bit confused about that. I seem to understand that some lines will remain parallel but I don't know how to know which ones?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2016/1992187-IMG_1827.JPG

This table I thought would be easy... but I think it defeated me. Actually I know it did. I even know what is wrong with it. I know the front left corner and leg is way to close to me. I just don't know why I saw it there. :lol: I think my brain keeps telling my eyes and hand the table is square and so I draw it that way. I was much better with that crazy impossible chair than my ordinary table! Hard things should not be easier than easy things! I know how to fix my table and I will but right now I would rather burn it :eek: so I need to wait a bit. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2016/1992187-IMG_1834.JPG

My Tissue box had the same basic issues as my table, my brain lied to me. I just can't seem to SEE ordinary things. I don't know how to overcome this problem.

I did take a day off and then sat down and with four boxes. I really just wanted to get something right. I think they are passing fair, though I admit that I didn't just toss them on a table or on the floor. I actually took some cardboard and made a corner to stand behind them so I didn't have the distraction of anything else to look at. Here is that drawing. It is simple but it took me hours. I think the lines are right. :crossfingers:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2016/1992187-IMG_1831.JPG

~Lorianne

lorianne621
12-09-2016, 08:40 AM
Arnoud,

I have spent the past couple hours reviewing the materials. I have some issues with short term memory loss and thought perhaps I had simply forgotten what I had read on 1, 2 and 3 point perspective. As it turns out, I must have simply been in a hurry and missed the reference to the guest lectures. I found the lecture on perspective and finally had that 'light bulb' moment I was hoping for! :clap:
Now that I finally comprehend exactly what is expected of me, maybe, just maybe I can translate that to paper. My hands still have a hard time keeping up with my mind but I am spending hours each day with pencil in hand sketching and drawing. If I am too tired to do intense work then I draw lines and circles. I look forward to seeing your opinion of my four boxes. It is the only work so far I think is pretty good as far as perspective is concerned. I am encouraged though as before this class I never considered drawing more than a stick figure and that only when pressed by a grandchild.

Lorianne

arnoud3272
12-09-2016, 05:26 PM
Lori-Anne
Why are you so obsessed with the definitions of 1PP, 2PP and 3PP?
That is mathematics, not art :(.
I'd advice to concentrate on what really matters, study the railroad tracks. Nothing that must or can be understood, only observation.
As to the 4 boxes, you're not far off, it would be acceptable in other contexts. But this is the class on perspective :evil:. See the middle image of the railroad track posting. "There is only one horizon line"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Dec-2016/142886-lori.JPG

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

lorianne621
12-09-2016, 06:04 PM
Arnoud,

I did not realize I was obsessed. I am just trying to understand what I am missing that is causing me to fail with each drawing. If I understand what you are telling me... The four red dots should all be on the same horizon. Is that correct? I am sorry I am little slow catching on. Perhaps I have it this time?

Lorianne

arnoud3272
12-10-2016, 05:33 AM
Lori-Anne

..... I am just trying to understand what I am missing that is causing me to fail with each drawing..... But the ever returning tutorials on the mathematic theories won't help. Focus on the three basic principles.
"Further away looks smaller"
"There is only one horizon line"
"Perspective is not a property of objects, but of parallel lines"
Applied consistently, these will help avoid almost all possible errors. The problem is in forgetting to check them.
:wave:

arnoud3272
12-11-2016, 12:35 PM
LoriAnne -
As a further illustration of my advice:
Recognizing - or being told - that box A is in 1PP and box B in 2PP, would that have helped you to avoid the error?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Dec-2016/142886-lori.JPG

:wave:

Anna Marie
12-21-2016, 09:39 AM
Cripes this has been tough. Its certainly teaching me a ton of things. How I look at things, what I miss that my head rules my hand not my eye.
So here goes with my drawings.

Four Boxes, The only rectangular table I have, A box of tissues and a Chair.

If you knew the angst that I have gone through with the flipping chair you would give me a medal its not perfect I know but it is what it is.

Anna Marie
12-21-2016, 09:46 AM
The dreaded chair

arnoud3272
12-21-2016, 05:10 PM
Anna-Marie
A nice job on shading :clap:.

As to what we are studying in this class, try to remember:


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2016/142886-Railroad_Tracks.jpg

Further away looks smaller - Check :thumbsup:

There is only one horizon - ?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2016/142886-anna-4b.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2016/142886-anna-table.jpg
This one should be easy, it is just a cube with big holes in the sides :cat:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2016/142886-anna-chair.jpg

The correct sequence: first the big shapes, check and correct if needed, then the details such as shading.

Instead of redoing some of these, I suggest to analyze and explain the (perspective) error in this drawing. Clearly something is wrong, but what is it?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2016/142886-leaning-shed-scaled.jpg

:wave:

Anna Marie
12-22-2016, 05:41 AM
Arnoud thank you so much for taking the time to advise me. I must say I am very frustrated but only with myself. You would not believe how many times I redrew some of these items.
I think that basically I have no flipping idea where my horizon is. I could make a dozen excuses but it all boils down to think observe observe observe.
I will achieve I promise. I have to now or I would be wasting your time.
In the words of Arnold Schwarzanegger....Ill be back!

arnoud3272
12-22-2016, 12:58 PM
Anna Marie -
I think that basically I have no flipping idea where my horizon is. You think too much :evil:.
Your horizon is - basically - where you want it to be. But all VP's (of horizontal lines) must lie on that sole line.
The HL is where you assume the eye level of the observer - IN the drawing/painting, NOT OF the drawing - is. You can decide where :thumbsup:. When drawing from life, the natural HL is your eye level, but as said, you may change it - but then change the perspective in the drawing as well.
:wave:

monarchd
12-26-2016, 08:14 AM
This was a really good lesson, thank you for posting it. :clap:

I did freehand and then would go back and correct angles. It really helped to fully path out the angles all the way to the vanishing point.

Typically, I don't do this and it was a real eye opener to find my tendency was to make my angles either the exact same (parallel) or start pushing further apart as they receed, which is not good. They need to converge and get narrower as they go away.

I didn't fiddle too much with shading, just wanted to get my perspective right.

So, here we go! :crossfingers:

Exercise 2: The Cube in Perspective

Exercise 3: 4 Boxes

monarchd
12-26-2016, 08:16 AM
Exercise 4: A Box of Kleenex (I need to work on folds, this gave me loads of trouble! I about wore a hole in the paper erasing! :lol: )

Exercise 4: A Table

Exercise 4: A Chair

arnoud3272
12-26-2016, 03:04 PM
Very well done, monarchd :clap:
You have clearly no problem in understanding perspective :thumbsup:. As you said, the problem is taking care to check it.
BTW, folds are studied in class 16 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260445).

Please move on to another class :thumbsup:.

Anna Marie
01-01-2017, 05:34 AM
Okey Dokey Firstly Happy New Year Arnoud hope you had a good one.
The little shed its so interesting to look and think that's ok then draw some parallel lines. Multiple Vanishing points on several different horizons.

arnoud3272
01-01-2017, 11:00 AM
Anna Marie -
Happy New Year :)

Exactly :thumbsup:.
To be sure, I'd like to stress that only VP's of horizontal lines lie on the horizon. Roofs, staircases, open flaps of boxes, etc. have their VP as well, but (often very far) above or below the horizon line. We have a construction method for them, but that is not basic, and probably only of interest to architects. It suffices to remember "farther away looks smaller", the top ridge of a roof is shorter that the gutter.

Very well done, please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

Anna Marie
01-01-2017, 02:25 PM
Yippee Kay and and thank you.
Will get on to 3 as soon as released from my straight jacket. This classroom is ace. It's not easy when you have my brain but then if it was easy it would not be fun.

MessyBun
01-09-2017, 07:49 PM
Oops I'm so sorry! I totally misunderstood that :lol:

Is this better?

arnoud3272
01-10-2017, 09:01 AM
Nice try, Christine :thumbsup:.
But is it better? Sorry, not really.
First, not an error, but I advised I'd like to see one drawing of 4 boxes in a common perspective - preferably not all in the same orientation. You did put them as soldiers in a row :(. That makes it more difficult.

Now, what you will learn in this class:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Dec-2016/142886-Railroad_Tracks.jpg
And your drawing:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jan-2017/142886-messy.jpg

Further away looks smaller? Check :thumbsup:
Only one horizon? I see 3 of them :(
All lines in a set of parallel lines go to the same VP? All boxes got their own VP :(, but they all stand in the same orientation, so forcefully parallel.

I fear that you drew from imagination, not looking at the real thing. In particular you can never see the top of the "green" box as drawn if you look at the complete set in real life.

It is not so difficult, only needs careful observation :thumbsup:
:wave:

rickjf
02-04-2017, 10:34 AM
Here are some perspective drawings of boxes different VP.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2310.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2311.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2312.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2313.JPG

rickjf
02-04-2017, 10:38 AM
I've got more to do. I haven't selected a table to draw.

rickjf
02-04-2017, 06:29 PM
Another box
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2321.JPG

rickjf
02-04-2017, 08:36 PM
A vanishing point south of Lubbock TX.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2323.JPG

arnoud3272
02-05-2017, 05:04 AM
Good job, Rick, I see you understand the effects of perspective.
And a nice illustration of vanishing lines :thumbsup:

rickjf
02-06-2017, 02:42 PM
Here are photos of a little table I'll. Use as a subject for this perspective class.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2338.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2339.JPG
A couple more. With different perspective
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2336.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2337.JPG

arnoud3272
02-06-2017, 04:53 PM
:thumbsup:

rickjf
02-06-2017, 06:53 PM
The test of skill and knowledge!
There are no parallel line in the photo or drawing. All lines taper to a VP somewhere. It's areal test of observation and use of the pencil and eraser.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2342.JPG
I'm letting it rest while go over it with my eyes. I'll see what needs to be done.

rickjf
02-06-2017, 11:26 PM
Progression!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2346.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2339.JPG

arnoud3272
02-07-2017, 09:12 AM
You went for a real challenge :) but you cope very well :thumbsup:

rickjf
02-08-2017, 09:36 PM
I'm presenting this as finished. It could take much more time with limited improvement.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Feb-2017/104468-IMG_2380.JPG

arnoud3272
02-09-2017, 05:02 AM
Very well done, Rick :clap:.
Let's move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

rickjf
02-09-2017, 07:52 AM
Arnoud,
Thank you. For being helpful
And for the promotion to 101-3.
I had surgery on my right hand on Tuesday. The table is an effort of both hands.
I think class 3 will be slower as I'll have surgery on my left hand as well.

I'm enjoying this study.
Rick

chrisblue
02-09-2017, 12:55 PM
Hi, here's my work for this class!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Feb-2017/1997000-2017-02-09_18.55.17.jpg

arnoud3272
02-09-2017, 05:00 PM
Well done, Chris :clap:.
I'd like to see the last assignment, a coherent set of 4 boxes. (Tip: the analysis is much easier if they do not point all in the same direction)
:wave:

chrisblue
02-10-2017, 08:03 AM
Hi Arnoud, thank you for your feedback!!! I hope i got this one right!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Feb-2017/1997000-20170210_135512.jpg

arnoud3272
02-10-2017, 05:50 PM
Very well done, Chris :clap:
Please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

SoDoomed
02-21-2017, 02:26 AM
Here are my drawings on perspective. Cheers for looking :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Feb-2017/1999090-20170221_181355.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Feb-2017/1999090-20170221_181507.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Feb-2017/1999090-20170221_181417.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Feb-2017/1999090-20170221_181440.jpg

arnoud3272
02-21-2017, 03:55 PM
Very good job, William :clap:
The perspective constructions are completely correct :).
Please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:

BiscuitsMontana
03-23-2017, 04:12 PM
I am not at all sure I did this right but here goes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2017/2001141-IMG_3915.JPG

Cubes in perspective

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2017/2001141-IMG_3916.JPG

Four boxes

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2017/2001141-image.jpg

I couldn't find a Kleenex box so here is a wine box

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2017/2001141-IMG_3905.JPG

A table

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2017/2001141-IMG_3908.JPG

A chair

arnoud3272
03-24-2017, 02:18 PM
Kathryn - You've worked carefully :thumbsup:.
But you seem to miss the essential aspects of perspective. Even if all other theory looks mysterious, one principle should be clear: "further away looks smaller".
You took the utmost care to make sure that front and back were of the same size :confused:.
e.g.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Mar-2017/142886-kathryn-1.JPG

and

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Mar-2017/142886-kathryn-3.JPG

or here the back is even larger than the front.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Mar-2017/142886-kathryn-2.JPG


The perspective of the chair is correct, but given the other drawings I wonder whether it is not a "happy accident"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Mar-2017/142886-kathryn-4.JPG

Please revisit the the introduction and in particular the recent addition with the rail tracks.

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

BiscuitsMontana
03-25-2017, 12:18 AM
I will do that! Yeah, I think I missed that somehow Ö thank you for the very clear corrections!

Brundlefly
04-06-2017, 09:24 PM
Blocks:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2017/2004882-blocks.jpg

Giant eraser:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2017/2004882-giant_eraser.jpg

arnoud3272
04-07-2017, 05:25 PM
Brundle - Looks good :thumbsup:.
No doubt you understand the geometry of perspective.
Concerning your fascination for 3 point perspective, that is very acceptable in comics. But in realistic art, vertical parallels are kept parallel as a rule. You need a very good compositional reason to deviate, as for instance in the iconic crucifix by Salvador Dali. Not just "because it is tower".
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

JLloyd
05-14-2017, 12:43 PM
Hello
Not sure if i'm being silly or just not grasping the concept of the class.
I can draw a box using 1 point perspective or an image like the one posted using two point perspective but i can't seem to get the proportions right like in the image attached.
I start by drawing the horizon line and then make two viewpoints but the proportions or angle's are constantly out.
Is it just simply I don't have the view points out wide enough or my horizon line at the correct height??
I know the answer is probably pretty simple but it has me a little perplexed at the moment.
Could someone just give me a little nudge in the right direction please or a slap if i'm being an idiot!!
Thanks in advance
James


846913

arnoud3272
05-14-2017, 03:35 PM
.... I start by drawing the horizon line and then make two viewpoints but the proportions or angle's are constantly out......
James -
I'm not sure I understand your problem correctly.
My understanding is that you approach it as a mathematical problem - the mention of of 1PP, 2PP points in that direction. The mathematical treatment is very well for drawing from imagination, as for instance architects. If you draw from a reference - preferably from life - then you start drawing by sight, only afterwards constructing the vanishing lines for checking (and correcting) what you sketched. And yes, at least one VP will always lie far outside your paper - that is always the case for a reasonably realistic drawing. If people start with the construction, the front corner will be impossibly sharp. Just look at all these "tutorials" on internet, no realism. So draw first.
Constructing the VL's based on the actual edges on your sketch will show you the general direction of the VP's. And the HL follows the position of the VP's.
If a more accurate analysis is wanted, there are traditional tricks like pasting an extra piece of paper at the side, or (on a drawing board) using drawing pins and a piece of string. But with the PC, scan it in - that you'll need to post it anyways - and draw your lines in an image manipulation program :thumbsup:.
:wave:

JLloyd
05-14-2017, 04:30 PM
Hi Arnoud
Sorry for being a bit simple,I did go online and read about vp being off of the horizontal plane drawn on the paper so read up on ways to combat it.
I understand where I was going wrong.I will have another go tomorrow and post up my results.
Thanks for the info though :)

Mounir
05-27-2017, 10:24 AM
Hi everyone,

Here's my work. Looking forward to have your feedback :wave:

arnoud3272
05-27-2017, 06:01 PM
Mounir - I see you understand the basics :thumbsup:.
But don't loose your concentration. Further away looks smaller?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-May-2017/142886-mounir.jpg

Well done, please move on to class 3 :music:

Mounir
05-28-2017, 10:59 PM
Mounir - I see you understand the basics :thumbsup:.
But don't loose your concentration. Further away looks smaller?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-May-2017/142886-mounir.jpg

Well done, please move on to class 3 :music:
Oups, something was bothering me in this box but I could'nt guess what. Thanks for the feedback. :clap:

Santosha
06-10-2017, 12:56 AM
If it's okay, I'd like to post the first couple of assignments before I go further. Not sure if I am on the right track. I thought I'd have a nice relaxing evening drawing an easy peasy tissue box. HA! Many pages later...

Here are the cubes:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2017/2009758-boxes.JPeG

and some of my attempts at the tissue box.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2017/2009758-tissue1.jpeg

Earlier posters in the thread were advised to draw by sight first, then use perspective to correct, so I tried to do that.

I'm still having trouble interpreting what the perspective lines are telling me to correct, and how to correct them though.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2017/2009758-tissue3.JPeG

Tried to correct the lines with the blue pencil, but I'm thinking they are still not right.

Santosha
06-10-2017, 01:03 AM
Here's one I tried by drawing the horizon and vanishing points first, but I produced that artificial pointy-looking front corner that Arnoud has been pointing out to other people. :rolleyes:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2017/2009758-tissue4.jpeg

and here is one where I thought it might be simpler to draw with the box squarely facing me, but I am still confused.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2017/2009758-tissue6.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2017/2009758-tissue7.jpeg

This one came out with lines parallel instead of converging, so I started to try to correct it, but I'm not sure what I am doing. :confused::lol:

I can see the "further away looks smaller" in the railroad tracks photo but I am having trouble seeing it in the tissue box. Maybe I am not measuring precisely enough?

arnoud3272
06-10-2017, 11:15 AM
Santosha -
You're almost there, just observe a bit deeper :thumbsup:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2017/142886-santosha.JPeG

I'm still having trouble interpreting what the perspective lines are telling me to correct, and how to correct them though. OK, compare this with your theoretical cubes, or with the version where you constructed the VL first.
Learn the 3 important principles by rote :thumbsup: Second one: there is only one horizon line.
How to correct? By making them come together at the same level. And while doing that, just choose the VL's to change so that you get a image that "looks good". Perspective is a tool, not an end it itself.

Here's one I tried by drawing the horizon and vanishing points first, but I produced that artificial pointy-looking front corner It is not because you constructed the perspective from imagination, but because you chose the VP's too close together. In realistic images, at least one VP lies far away, far outside the picture border. With a bit of practice, you can "guestimate" the correct direction.

and here is one where I thought it might be simpler to draw with the box squarely facing me, but I am still confused. It is OK as far as the VL's are concerned. The error is in the "foreshortening", the depth is too big. BTW, the same error is made by everybody in the theoretical cubes.

I can see the "further away looks smaller" in the railroad tracks photo but I am having trouble seeing it in the tissue box. Maybe I am not measuring precisely enough? That is exactly an illustration of the problem to really "draw what you see". Some part of our mind, knowing that the box is cubic, "corrects" the information coming from the eyes. And yes, measuring is also a skill that needs practice.

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Santosha
06-20-2017, 05:40 PM
Arnoud, thank you for the feedback, particularly this:

How to correct? By making them come together at the same level. And while doing that, just choose the VL's to change so that you get a image that "looks good". Perspective is a tool, not an end it itself.

which gave me a lightbulb moment. :)

Here are my four boxes. I'm posting my first attempt just for fun. I drew the boxes first, from observation, then drew in the lines and it looks like I dropped a handful of uncooked spaghetti. Just a few issues.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jun-2017/2009758-dropped_spaghetti.jpeg

Then I traced the box images onto a new sheet, and corrected the angles to make a more reasonable perspective. I don't know if it is right, but it is less awful. :lol:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jun-2017/2009758-four_boxes_final.jpeg
Here is my coffee table.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jun-2017/2009758-table.jpeg

And here's a chair.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jun-2017/2009758-chair.jpeg

arnoud3272
06-21-2017, 02:31 AM
Yes, Santosha, you grasped it :thumbsup:.
Very well done, please move on to class 3 :clap:

amulam
06-25-2017, 09:34 AM
My first assignments for class 2. This is really hard for me, which I guess is why I'm doing it :) I especially struggled with the table's legs and I think it's still not quite right when I actually try to draw the lines to the VPs.
I'm going to try and work on the chair and 4 boxes now, although I may need to pick back up in August, since I'm about to leave the country and don't know how much drawing I'll get done.

arnoud3272
06-25-2017, 04:57 PM
Very well done so far, amulam :clap:.
The table is not perfect, but it is reasonably correct.
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

amulam
06-25-2017, 05:40 PM
Very well done so far, amulam :clap:.
The table is not perfect, but it is reasonably correct.
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Wow, I'm actually thrilled that it seems acceptable :) I found it surprisingly difficult to apply these concepts and was so close to giving up on it yesterday.

CPCs
06-26-2017, 06:12 AM
Thanks to Arnoud for taking a look at my post in the 3rd class. Took the advice and went backwards again. :) I thought I'd use this opportunity to clear some things up about perspective as well:

1) How do you determine where to put the horizon line and vanishing points? Is it just draw what I think it's meant to look like and then adjust whatever's on the page as best as I can?
2) What's the best way to manage VPs that go off of the page? Is it to simply transfer the image onto my computer and draw in all the lines and see if they match up? For some reason when I can draw in all the lines on my page, it all makes sense but the second the VPs go off the page, my brain becomes absolutely befuddled.

Sorry if these questions have been asked a billion times but thanks once again! :clap:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jun-2017/2006871-1.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jun-2017/2006871-2.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jun-2017/2006871-3.jpg

arnoud3272
06-26-2017, 01:20 PM
CPCs - Well done so far :clap:. Comparing with your drawing in class 3, it looks as if you understand the mathematical theory for isolated cubes very well, but get lost for combined pictures. That is an aspect that is almost always ignored in the "introduction to perspective" tutorials. Probably because it is felt too obvious. And yes, it is obvious, but as in the Kung-Fu series of long ago : "How come you do not know?"
Don't skip the added illustration with the railroad tracks in post #1.

As to your questions:

1) How do you determine where to put the horizon line and vanishing points? Is it just draw what I think it's meant to look like and then adjust whatever's on the page as best as I can?
Yes and no :lol:
Yes, if you draw from life, or copy from a photo, and do not want to change the concept. But you can always choose a different HL.
Drawing from imagination, or composing from different detail photos or sketches, you probably must choose the HL
There is a small range of HL positions that constitute a "natural" choice. Other levels are not forbidden, but they are for "special effects". The natural choice derives from the fact that the HL is identical to the eye level of the observer. Mind: the observer in the picture, not the observer of the picture. So for instance, in a level street, the HL will be a bit lower than the top of the front door(s).

2) What's the best way to manage VPs that go off of the page? Is it to simply transfer the image onto my computer and draw in all the lines and see if they match up? For some reason when I can draw in all the lines on my page, it all makes sense but the second the VPs go off the page, my brain becomes absolutely befuddled.
Computer, pasting a second sheet along the side, a pin and piece of string, ...
But with a little practice, it is very well possible to questimate where they go with only the beginning showing. Not "architect quality", but enough to recognize serious errors.
E.g.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jun-2017/142886-far-VP-estimate.jpg

:wave:

DawnDR
07-04-2017, 11:11 AM
Hi Arnoud,

Here's my work for this lesson. It's taken me quite some time to work through it, but here it is all together, so you don't have to try and track down all I did. :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jul-2017/1969555-boxes_with_VPs.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jul-2017/1969555-chair_and_tissues.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jul-2017/1969555-table.jpeg

I preferred to use boxes of items ordered for work for the 4-box picture. Can you tell I work in a chemistry lab? :)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jul-2017/1969555-work_boxes.jpeg

Thanks for looking :)

Dawn

arnoud3272
07-04-2017, 03:14 PM
Welcome back, Dawn :)
A mixed set of assignments. Some are well done, but for others it looks as if you forgot to check for correct proportions.
You know how railroad tracks look smaller in the distance? That is an optical phenomenon that you cannot change by willpower. "Farther away looks smaller" And you'll confirm that the back edges of a cardboard box are farther away than the front edges. But why do you insist that the front looks smaller than the back?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jul-2017/142886-dawn-2.jpeg

And I don't understand why you drew the stack of boxes with skewed verticals?
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

DawnDR
07-07-2017, 09:50 PM
Hi Arnoud,

Thanks for your feedback. It's been quite a while since I drew the table, and don't remember why I drew them that way. I'll draw it again and post it. The skewed verticals on the boxes is because I was having trouble with the proportions and scaling up from my iPhone to 9x12" sketchbook. Here's the reference:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jul-2017/1969555-boxes_ref.jpeg

Also, the verticals in the reference look skewed to me, or is that an optical illusion because the view is from above the boxes? Sometimes I have trouble with how straight or angled lines need to be for correct proportions and perspective.

arnoud3272
07-08-2017, 12:55 PM
Also, the verticals in the reference look skewed to me, or is that an optical illusion because the view is from above the boxes? That's right, it looks skewed. But that is mainly a camera distortion. Two remarks:
A. Do not copy the distortion. Artists and professional photographers - with expensive cameras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_camera#Movements) - keep vertical lines vertical.
B. Much more important !
"Further away looks smaller"
The bottom is further away than the top. The back is further away than the front. But you draw the back larger than the front and the bottom larger than the top :confused::confused:.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jul-2017/142886-dawn.jpeg

Sometimes I have trouble with how straight or angled lines need to be for correct proportions and perspective. Yes, and that is exact the reason you should use vanishing lines. The old masters did it :thumbsup:, with a pin and a piece of string. When cleaning or X-raying a pinhole is often discovered at the exact VP location.
:wave:

hopetogetbetter
07-18-2017, 03:27 PM
Exercises:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Jul-2017/2003494-fullsizeoutput_261.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Jul-2017/2003494-fullsizeoutput_262.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Jul-2017/2003494-fullsizeoutput_253.jpeg

hopetogetbetter
07-18-2017, 03:35 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Jul-2017/2003494-Untitled.jpeg

Couple of notes:

1. I've been using a combination of different pencils and graphite sticks. I have to admit, I like the feel of graphite sticks but can't really always get the precision with them that I'd like. If anyone has any advice on that, I'd appreciate it (besides practice, of course).
2. For the chair, I think I have most o the perspective right, but the back left leg/arm is too short, I believe, which is why this pic looks off.
3. Sometimes the forum won't accept the pictures I take and I'm not sure why. For example, I had to screen shot the photo of the pic and load that to get it on here. If anyone has any ideas on what I'm doing there, please let me know.
4. I know that one of the upcoming lessons involves charcoal. I've used charcoal and I'm using it another class I'm taking, but I will have to say, it's not really my think. I like graphite more and I would prefer to work with it, especially if I can figure out the graphic sticks.
5. Theoretically, could I add fixative to one of these pictures, and then paint over it in oil paint?

arnoud3272
07-19-2017, 05:18 PM
You did a good job of shading the objects :thumbsup:. But the generally accepted way is to get the general form right before tackling details and shading.
What you learn in this class are the fundamental principles of perspective - illustrated by the picture of the railroad tracks - ; and understanding the use of vanishing lines.

"Further away looks smaller"
The back is further away than the front, why did you draw it larger?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2017/142886-hope-kleenex.jpeg

"Parallel lines converge to a common VP"
On a correctly made chair, these lines would run parallel.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2017/142886-hope-chair.jpeg

I'll accept that you know all this, but drawing realistically need a constant attention. "Drawing what you know it looks like and not what you really see" is exactly the same problem, losing concentration.
Keep going :thumbsup:

hopetogetbetter
07-20-2017, 01:16 AM
You did a good job of shading the objects :thumbsup:. But the generally accepted way is to get the general form right before tackling details and shading.
What you learn in this class are the fundamental principles of perspective - illustrated by the picture of the railroad tracks - ; and understanding the use of vanishing lines.

"Further away looks smaller"
The back is further away than the front, why did you draw it larger?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2017/142886-hope-kleenex.jpeg

"Parallel lines converge to a common VP"
On a correctly made chair, these lines would run parallel.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2017/142886-hope-chair.jpeg

I'll accept that you know all this, but drawing realistically need a constant attention. "Drawing what you know it looks like and not what you really see" is exactly the same problem, losing concentration.
Keep going :thumbsup:

I do know it, but I didn't reallly see it or understand it until your diagrams pointed it out to me. I'll work on another box and chair now that I see what I'm supposed to be looking for. I've already started on cubes, so if you don't mind, I'd like to finish and submit and then come back to this.

Something else, in regards to the chair, I was eyeballing it, drawing where I thought it would go. Yet from what I could see in your critique, I have to ask a stupid question: should I use a ruler to be exacting? And I guess along with that, will I always use one? I just kind of assumed real artists would just use their eyes and where they think it should be.

As for the shading, I was more playing around with the pencils to get a feel for the different darknesses of each type. I have a family member who works art shows and has given me lots of supplies. I'm slowly trying each type of tool.

In any case, thanks, appreciate it.

arnoud3272
07-20-2017, 02:48 PM
I just kind of assumed real artists would just use their eyes and where they think it should be. Is Johannes Vermeer a real artist? His use of the Camera Obscura is probably conjectured, but he did use vanishing lines, with a pin and a piece of string. A small pin hole is still present at the vanishing point. David Hockney used tape - as used by house painters - to get nice straight edges. And in the popular caricature of an artist he is measuring with the brush handle.
Where you are right is that the best way to progress is to draw first, check afterwards -- but while there is still ample room for correction.
:wave:

hopetogetbetter
07-21-2017, 11:21 AM
Is Johannes Vermeer a real artist? His use of the Camera Obscura is probably conjectured, but he did use vanishing lines, with a pin and a piece of string. A small pin hole is still present at the vanishing point. David Hockney used tape - as used by house painters - to get nice straight edges. And in the popular caricature of an artist he is measuring with the brush handle.
Where you are right is that the best way to progress is to draw first, check afterwards -- but while there is still ample room for correction.
:wave:

You're right, of course. I guess part of it comes down to the perception of what artists do versus what they actually do. I've worked a bit more on perspective using an exercise from a reference book I have. Here are the pics of the process:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Jul-2017/2003494-IMG_2941.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Jul-2017/2003494-IMG_2942.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Jul-2017/2003494-IMG_2943.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Jul-2017/2003494-IMG_2944.JPG

I used a ruler and HB and 2B pencils. I tried to capture the steps and shapes. It's a bit mechanical but it helped to see what you were getting at.

I also worked on the tissue box and two point perspective. I made the corner a little too high and created the most dramatic tissue box ever. It was still better than where I was at.

I'm still working on the chair, and I'll post that when I'm done.

arnoud3272
07-21-2017, 03:34 PM
Very well done, hopetogetbetter:clap:
It's a bit mechanical but it helped to see what you were getting at.
That's true. But see it as a learning process. Playing scales when learning music is also rather rigid :).
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

kezza30
07-22-2017, 04:11 PM
Ivevgot a headache from my 4 boxes, it's terrible:( I'll have another go at it tomorrow :thumbsup: here's my first 2 pieces..

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170722_205205.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170722_210149.jpg

arnoud3272
07-23-2017, 07:55 AM
Good job on the theoretical cubes, Kerry :thumbsup:
In this class on perspective it is good to reflect on its first principle:
"Further away looks smaller" It is unavoidable, taking a picture with the camera/phone aslant will deform, because the back is further from the camera than the front, see the 4-boxes photo. I've tried to redress it digitally, but there is no guarantee that it is true to the original. Take your photos straight.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/142886-camera-square.jpg

You did the right thing by using vanishing lines on the 4-boxes assignment, but please revisit the picture of the double railroad tracks in post #1. A few examples:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/142886-kezza-3.jpg


Blue:
"Parallel lines of the same set go to the same VP", not like this:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/142886-Railroad.jpg

Red vs. blue:

"There is only one HL"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/142886-Railroad_HL.jpg

Keep up the good work :wave:.

kezza30
07-23-2017, 08:12 AM
Thanks for the tips on taking pictures:) I will revisit the 4 box assignment and be more careful. My friends face when I asked her opinion on my first attempt said it all, she can be viciously honest :lol:

kezza30
07-23-2017, 12:29 PM
My other 3 attempts before I redo my boxes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170723_153505.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170723_165533.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170723_165603.jpg

arnoud3272
07-23-2017, 03:41 PM
Kerry - Nice rendering, but the foundation is wrong.
It is still the same error.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/142886-Railroad_HL.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/142886-kezza-2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2017/142886-kezza-31.jpg

kezza30
07-24-2017, 07:42 AM
I think I'll be stuck on this forever lol:(

arnoud3272
07-24-2017, 09:45 AM
Kerry -
Relax, you copied the theoretical cubes correctly. What is a table but a cube with big holes in its sides?
And look:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jul-2017/142886-cube-intuitief.jpg

:wave:

kezza30
07-24-2017, 02:16 PM
I struggle with anything remotely learning lol so I consulted my very smart friend and I think I understand what I've been doing wrong now :)

kezza30
07-24-2017, 02:54 PM
I went back and redid my table first to see if I understood what I was doing wrong, I've done it twice because I thought it needed a lower horizon line but then it didn't look right so I went back and carefully made each point to the point. There's a few mistakes on the other leg so it's not too good but hope I've figured it out? Sorry I'm not so clever when it comes to more lesson type stuff :(

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170724_195007.jpg

arnoud3272
07-24-2017, 04:16 PM
That is right :thumbsup::clap:

kezza30
07-24-2017, 04:25 PM
Yay thanks I got it, I feel like I can go back through the exercises with more thought tomorrow :clap: I'll be more patient and not rush them this time :smug: I am assuming it was my second table that was right?

arnoud3272
07-25-2017, 05:36 AM
.... I am assuming it was my second table that was right?
Of course. But I meant also the whole manner of working. Drawing a first time, checking and then correcting is the right way :thumbsup:

kezza30
07-25-2017, 09:44 AM
Thank you:D I finished my assignments and hopefully I've got it :crossfingers:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170722_205205.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170723_153505.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170724_195007.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170725_134656.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2017/2013016-rsz_20170725_143727.jpg

arnoud3272
07-25-2017, 10:41 AM
Very good, Kerry :clap:
You understood the principles. Now the problem will be to paying enough attention to them when working on other topics. Please move on to class 3, cubes. And take care, errors in perspective are very obvious in cubes :evil:
:wave:

kezza30
07-25-2017, 10:59 AM
Haha I have seen class 3 and I will be paying maximum attention, one thing I'm learning is that I must work slow and have patience that has always been my down fall lol so glad I finally got it :clap:

terriks
08-17-2017, 05:26 PM
Okay, I am picking this up again after being out of town for awhile!

I am starting with the cubes on different VPs, the 4 boxes, and the Kleenex box. I *think* I'm understanding it correctly...?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Aug-2017/2007441-Class_2_cubes_on_VP.jpg




http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Aug-2017/2007441-Class_2,_4_boxes_drawing.jpg

arnoud3272
08-18-2017, 04:50 PM
Well done Terri :clap:
I too think you understand the theory. Now it is the time to recognize it in all its forms.
First of all, a very practical point: "further away looks smaller" is an universal phenomenon. If you don't point the camera/phone straight to the paper, the back is further away from the camera than the front and you get the kind of distortion you see in these pictures.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Aug-2017/142886-camera-square.jpg

Further, perspective applies to all receding lines (real or imagined, like between tree tops). If the VP lies far away, it is OK-ish to draw them parallel, but definitely don't let them run apart.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Aug-2017/142886-terri.jpg

Next class is kind of "perspective-2", so plenty of time to practice more. Please move on to class 3 :thumbsup:.

terriks
08-18-2017, 06:57 PM
Thank you, Arnoud! I appreciate seeing your lines - I knew there was something a bit wonky about that one box, but it seemed to line up okay in ONE direction. It definitely goes haywire in the other!

Practice, practice, practice. I'll move on to class 3. :)

amulam
08-27-2017, 08:09 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Aug-2017/2011039-IMG_27082017_170346.jpg I did the first 1.5 lessons back in June, then spent some time traveling and moving and just now got around to working on it again. So here are my 4 boxes. The one thing I haven't done yet is the chair, and I can't really find a suitable chair I this hotel room I'm currently in :)
I didn't spend time on details for the boxes, since I figured the focus is on perspective.

arnoud3272
08-28-2017, 05:12 PM
Very well sketched, amulam :clap:
It is clear you understand the principles, but it is so easy to overlook things:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Aug-2017/142886-amulam.jpg

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

amulam
08-28-2017, 09:34 PM
Thank you so much for the greatly appreciated feedback, Arnoud! This whole perspective lesson was very hard for me, but I definitely learnt from it, which is always exciting!!

KolinskyRed
09-20-2017, 11:29 AM
Very interesting, to give perspective lines a try - and how they helped soooo much with tricky chairs and tables! Horizon lines - hmmm, quite helpful to think about!
A) a wooden "box" equal length sides, open front and back (a shelf for the wall for some ornaments) sketched freehand as a still-life, trying to think in terms of its vanishing lines.
B) Table, from a standing view point, so the HL is roughly same height again as table above the table itself. I thought about the whole thing as a giant box first and foremost (dotted lines connecting where legs touch the floor). I was looking at our kitchen table, but I simplified its fancy legs to straight/vertical/simple for the drawing.
C) & D) Using HL and VPs, I drew a box in three orientations.
E) Using HL and VPs, I drew a chair in two orientations. The first, one-point, the second: 2-point. Again, thinking of the whole chair - including the legs and where they touch the floor - as a big box.

Thanks!:)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2017/1088132-class2.jpg