Acrylic brushes - are they all (really) created equal ??

[samhill]

I switched from oils to acrylics about 6 months ago and at the time bought a bunch of the cheaper acrylic brushes (of various sizes) from ASW (the 'creative mark' brush line). They have been fine, however, the bristles start to get mushy and expand after a relatively short while. I'm very good at cleaning with soap and water after use, but am still getting lots of this...no more find edge:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Dec-2009/80289-IMG_8730b.jpg

I just bought a couple higher quality brushes (silver brush bristilon) to try, but am wondering if they too will go mushy in a relatively short time? I paint every day and am pretty hard on brushes and am going through them fast with all this mushing out, so do you think it's better to just stay with lots of cheap brushes or are more expensive brushes really worth the extra cost? I need to buy a big batch of brushes again soon and would appreciate your advice.....

Thanks for your thoughts....

PS....maybe this would be a good thread to share what you think are the best brushes and why?

PPS....in your experience is there much difference between golden and white nylon bristles? I've just been buying white as my art supply place says there isnt any difference to speak of......

[idylbrush]

Have you looked into Escoda from Spain. I have several and enjoy them immensely. The brand you speak of it not one of my favorites for oh so many reasons but that is just me. As far as gold of white. I have a preference for the golden Taklon bristles for some reason, they seem to be a bit more in keeping with how I paint. There are some very good brands of brushes that are not terribly expensive, you just have to experiment until you find the ones that work for you.

[samhill]

Have you looked into Escoda from Spain. I have several and enjoy them immensely. The brand you speak of it not one of my favorites for oh so many reasons but that is just me. As far as gold of white. I have a preference for the golden Taklon bristles for some reason, they seem to be a bit more in keeping with how I paint. There are some very good brands of brushes that are not terribly expensive, you just have to experiment until you find the ones that work for you.

thank you...I have heard of escoda but never tried them and will be sure to try a few in my next order. Have you had this experience of the brush mushing out on you, or is it just these cheap brushes I'm using? I never had such problems with hog bristle when I was into oils.
Also, isnt the gold generally softer than the white?
thanks again....

[Lady Carol]

I find the gesso to be very abrasive and thus I only buy cheapish brushes (Softgrips) and throw them away when the bristles fray too much. Softgrips are thew same price for any size, $2.99 so they work out quite economical in the long run.

[iloverealistic]

My favorite brushes for acrylics are Golden Taklon. After using them, I clean them up with a little dishwashing liquid and warm water, and they look almost new again. We bought them from Michael's. I like nylon brushes as well. I do not like to use natural hair paintbrushes since many of them shed and cannot hold a point. Just my 2 cents!:D

[sashntash]

While I love using natural hogs hair bristle brushes, I have found (and read) that it is the water that makes them go mushy... Hence, the problem that you are having since switching from oils to acrylics.

I have switched entirely to synthetic brushes. They do not get mushy from the water. They will, of course, eventually wear out... all brushes do.. but it won't be from mushiness :D

I use several brands depending on what I'm doing - thick or thin, loose or detailed.

My overall most favorite brushes are the Winsor & Newton Monarch. They are synthetic "mongoose" and the stiffness is between that of a hogs hair and a softer brush... They are wonderful and if I had to pick just one brush to use - the Monarchs would be it !!!!

One caveat ..... if you use primarily flats - as I do - the Monarch regular flat is shorter than most, so I buy the extra long flat...

If I want a stiff brush, I use the Silver Brush Bristlons which are synthetic "hogs hair."

For a soft brush, I use various brands of golden taklons......

[BeeCeeEss]

I love to use natural hog bristle brushes with my acrylics. The water will tend to soak the bristle hairs and make them a bit softer than they would be when used with oils, but I find this a plus because the moisture they soak up will help keep my acrylic paints from drying out too fast on my brushes. Any hog bristle brushes will tend to get raggedy with hard use, whether with oils or acrylics, but this, too, can be an advantage in helping in scumbling those soft edges and blends.

My favorite brand of hog bristle brushes is Robert Simmons. Just a personal preference. I'm sure there are better and worse. They're just my faves. I keep a separate set of brushes for my oils and for my acrylics.

The synthetic hog bristle brushes by both Silver Brush and by Princeton are superb! They have the feel and stiffness of natural hog bristle, but they are much more durable and will tend to hold their shape much better. They provide greater control and cleaner edges.

The Winsor & Newton Monarch synthetic "mongoose" brushes are great for working with acrylics. Dick Blick's synthetic "mongoose" brushes are also superb! I like them even better than W&N. They offer a bit more stiffness than Golden Taklon or the white nylon types, but they give excellent control and are fine enough to leave smooth brushstrokes behind. They are also rugged and will give you long service.

I don't use the really soft synthetic brushes with acrylics unless I'm working in more fluid styles. Then, my brushes of choice are usually Robert Simmons White Sable rounds, and for filberts I love his Sapphire or Sienna series. The White Sable rounds come to a wonderful point and are great for laying in washes and doing fine details. With good care, they will last a long time and keep their lovely points.

I agree with Howard about not being fond of Creative Mark brushes in general. I bought a number of their brushes specifically designed for use with acrylics and they shed like a St. Bernard with mange all over my paintings. I was NOT a happy camper. I tried some of their natural sable brushes (red sable, I believe) for oil painting and they also shed quite a bit. The only brushes they make that I do like are their line of black sable brushes (fitch?) that never seem to be on sale. The filberts of this line are wonderful for doing softening or blending when I'm working in oils. This is especially handy for working on portraits. I would not use these brushes with acrylics, however.

In the end, the brushes you use will depend upon how you want to paint and what you like best. A good brush is one that you will use and that does the job you require.

Beverly

[Charlie's Mum]

It's always worth doing a search before posing the question about any of the tools and meaterials we use here ;)

Here, (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=592099&highlight=Brushes) and Winsor and Newton Ac. brushes (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=572578&highlight=Brushes) and Problem with brushes (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=572576&highlight=Brushes) and Brush for Masonite? (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=571017&highlight=Brushes) How do you clean your brushes? (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=567335&highlight=Brushes) and WillAtelier ruin brushes? (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=557957&highlight=Brushes)

These were from a quick general search - you could go 'Advanced' and be more specific!
Hope these help. :D

[Flopka]

Another Golden Taklon user here. I don't pay attention to the brands I use, although I don't use cheap ones. They always seem to hold their shape very well. Thanks for the tip on the W&N and Dick Blick brushes.

[old_hobbyist]

Because I work in the garage on the workbench under a fluorescent light, I paint smallish [8 x 10 to 16 x 20]. I always use cheap Chinese bristles for roughing in/underpainting. Recently, for the bulk of my painting efforts, I've been using the all-plastic handle softgrip Royals. Because I only have one eye, I have problems with distance. As a result I can only use the short handled brushes. I get them on eBay from DirtBikeGeorge at fantastic prices.

Care and feeding of brushes always seems to be an issue with me. It seems that as long as I keep the brush tips in water when I'm painting (I use one of those coiled spring thingies), thoroughly wash with dish detergent after I'm done for the day, run the brushes through a solution of hair conditioner, damp-dry them and lay them flat to thoroughly dry, they seem to last a whole lot longer. [Meaning months.]

Eventually even the brushes that I've taken the most care with begin to exhibit terminal bristle splay. I tried a whole bunch of solvents to get the dead paint from the ferrules. Ammonia and methyl ethyl ketone are about the only two that seemed to work but they require long soaking times and can really bugger up the plastic handles. [If you aren't chemistry-oriented, PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!] I now keep the older, frayed, fuzzed brushes for scrubbing and scumbling in bushes and trees.

It really busts me up to pitch a "most favorite of all" brush in the trash, tho! {A moment of silence, please!}

[MoonRise]

The "Soft Grip" short handle brushes are relatively comfortable -for me-. But that is just taking the handle into consideration, not the bristles.

In general, the natural bristles usually won't hold up to the water content -and- the alkaline nature of acrylics all that well. If you choose to use the natural bristles, then that is your choice.

I picked up some Simmons "Expressions" but haven't used them much yet, so I don't have an opinion on them yet. The handles are a little thicker than other similarly sized brushes, yet they seemed to have a nice feel -in my hands-.

I'm usually not using the brushes for thick impasto though.

[Bayou13]

You guys will probably laugh at me, or say "oh, that explains it...", but I never pay more than a quarter for a brush. I know it is because I don't know what I'm doing, but I have been using the same brushes for several years and I just keep them in these cups filled witrh water and never let them get dry. They seem to work fine for me.

And yes, one of those brushes is a tooth brush... hehe

[old_hobbyist]

bayou13...
one of those brushes is a tooth brush
Yes! An excellent scrubbing tool, particularly a beat-up soft bristle one... It also works great for pulling in grass and sea oat leaves. Can't get it to work on palm leaves, tho. I bought a bunch of defective ones from surplus years ago. I think they were a nickel each. Often the bristles fall out. But every once in a while, I'll break in one that's a keeper. I think I have four or five in various stages of use. This is only a "hehe" for people who demand the finest quality paints, canvases, brushes, and so on. As some VIP once said, talent and ability always trump materials and equipment.

{Izzat a flashlite? As I said, I work in a windowless garage. As a result, I always wear a visor lamp on my cap, just in case. Guess you and I live in places where power outages rage!}

[RichDFischer]

OK I have a GREAT tip for us Acrylic painters. I used to have the same trouble with the brushes - cleaning too often!!! I have been very successful at getting my brushes well formed by leaving them dirty, saturated with water and wrapping them in a plastic bag overnight on several occasions. This only really applies to REAL bristle brushes. It works to perfection to form a nice working tip.

[Nilesh]

Great tip.

Refrigeration might also help.

You could spare yourself a whole lot of tedious brush cleaning this way.

If you had some extra brushes, and kept them reserved for like colors, you could probably go for a year or more like this.

It would be interesting to see how far it could be taken. If someone uses this approach with their brushes, and keeps them going until the year 2021 -- or even for a month or a year -- please let us know how it goes.

[Nilesh]

You guys will probably laugh at me, or say "oh, that explains it...", but I never pay more than a quarter for a brush. I know it is because I don't know what I'm doing, but I have been using the same brushes for several years and I just keep them in these cups filled witrh water and never let them get dry. They seem to work fine for me.

And yes, one of those brushes is a tooth brush... hehe
In the photograph, that large foreground brush on the right caught my eye.

How did it get like that?

Or is it wearing a wig?

[Bayou13]

Hello Nilesh,

Well, I have a very bad temper and when the brush doesn't put the paint on the way I want it to, I just give it a good whack and say, "Bad Brush! Bad!"

Just Kidding,

Actually, that is a brush I use primarily for making clouds, skys, and mist. Here is a post I did about using that brush back some time ago.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523511

Rick

[Charlie's Mum]

Love those brushes Rick - I have some on a smaller scale!!! ;)
As Jim says, they come in very useful .... the tooth brush is also good for spattering :D

I have some good Escoda brushes which clean easily and stay good but I also use the Soft brushes by Royal - cheap as chips - but they don't last long however much I look after them!

Must test that tip on my synthetics and see how it works - don't use bristles for acrylics. Have you tried it Rich?

[BeeCeeEss]

...

If you had some extra brushes, and kept them reserved for like colors, you could probably go for a year or more like this.

It would be interesting to see how far it could be taken. If someone uses this approach with their brushes, and keeps them going until the year 2021 -- or even for a month or a year -- please let us know how it goes.

I would think that problems with mold and mildew would prohibit this sort of practice unless you have ways to keep them at bay.

I think it is generally harmful to any brush to keep it soaked with water for very long periods of time -- days, weeks, months. The water will weaken the glue in the ferrule and even cause wooden handles to swell and crack.

I used to use one of those devices with a metal cup for holding water and a spring-like bracket that held the brush handles to suspend the brush tips in water throughout a painting session. I thought it was a dandy solution to keeping my acrylic brushes wet but not allowing them to sit on their tips and bend and damage them. But I started getting a lot of brushes with loosened ferrules and cracks and peeling finish on the handles near the ferrules. The wood would even turn black right at the ferrule.

I decided to come up with another way to keep my brushes moist but not waterlogged while I was painting in acrylics. I now use a shallow tray with a wet sponge in one end. I rest the hair/bristle ends of my brushes on the wet sponge and let the handles rest on the opposite end of this tray. The moist sponge is just enough to keep the brushes damp but not soggy until I either need to use them again or I'm ready to give them a good cleaning at the end of the day. I always lay them flat to dry overnight so the water does not collect in the ferrule. Since switching to this method, I've not had any more problems with ferrules getting loose or the handles cracking and peeling. My brushes last much longer.

Beverly

[oldradagast]

I typically prefer any stiff brush - it has to have some strength to it since I tend to paint in fashion that can be harder on brushes. Plush, soft brushes won't cut it since they will get squished.

That, and a brush can't shed all over. Ugh, I've had a few like that over the years and they get trashed pretty quick. Not much one can do with a brush that falls apart during use.

[old_hobbyist]

a brush can't shed all over. Ugh

Tell me about it! I had a pic rejected by a gallery because there were "OMG, brush hairs!" imbedded in the paint (would you believe!). Cheap Chinese bristle hairs!

[Nilesh]

Good information here.

One thought that might be of use: To keep hairs or bristles from falling out, why not use some glue? Squirting some superglue down into the ferrule could help hold all the hairs together. Low-viscosity, penetrating acrylics might work well too.

I can see how wood would tend to have problems with lengthy periods of high moisture or wetness. It might be safer to use synthetic handles and glue that would hold up to the water well.

The sponge idea sounds like a good one too.

[samhill]

thanks to all for your contributions and advice --- some very helpful info.

[oldradagast]

Good information here.

One thought that might be of use: To keep hairs or bristles from falling out, why not use some glue? Squirting some superglue down into the ferrule could help hold all the hairs together. Low-viscosity, penetrating acrylics might work well too.

I can see how wood would tend to have problems with lengthy periods of high moisture or wetness. It might be safer to use synthetic handles and glue that would hold up to the water well.

The sponge idea sounds like a good one too.

Sorry to raise this thread from the dead:

1) Be VERY CAREFUL if trying to use super-glue to keep the bristles in a brush. I tried that once on a shedding brush. The glue wicked through most of the bristles and completely ruined it, though it wasn't much use anyway since it shed all over.

2) Wood handles tend to end up with the paint on the handle cracking after a while, from what I've seen.

[Chestnut Tree Cafe]

I like Prolene acrylix brushes. They are brown synthetic and I prefer them to the WN galeria brushes I had. They are better for detail than hogs and easier to clean, with a bit less liquid carrying capacity.

Chris

[Imzadi]

I hope it's okay to bump up an older thread. Not sure what the policy is. I know enough to do a Search & read the archives for the wealth of info here already posted :thumbsup: , but, what happens when we find an older archived thread we want to ask a question about? :confused:


Anyway. . .

I find the gesso to be very abrasive and thus I only buy cheapish brushes (Softgrips) and throw them away when the bristles fray too much. Softgrips are thew same price for any size, $2.99 so they work out quite economical in the long run.


While I love using natural hogs hair bristle brushes, I have found (and read) that it is the water that makes them go mushy... Hence, the problem that you are having since switching from oils to acrylics.

I have switched entirely to synthetic brushes. They do not get mushy from the water. They will, of course, eventually wear out... all brushes do.. but it won't be from mushiness :D

I use several brands depending on what I'm doing - thick or thin, loose or detailed.

My overall most favorite brushes are the Winsor & Newton Monarch. They are synthetic "mongoose" and the stiffness is between that of a hogs hair and a softer brush... They are wonderful and if I had to pick just one brush to use - the Monarchs would be it !!!!

One caveat ..... if you use primarily flats - as I do - the Monarch regular flat is shorter than most, so I buy the extra long flat...

If I want a stiff brush, I use the Silver Brush Bristlons which are synthetic "hogs hair."

For a soft brush, I use various brands of golden taklons......

I am returning to painting after a looong absence. I just ordered a couple of sets of Golden Taklon synthetics as that is what I used to use with my liquid acrylics.

I was always told to use natural bristle brushes for oils only as they do get mushy, and that has been my experience, too.

However, I am about to take a Brenda Harris acrylic landscape workshop, whose list of about 10 required brushes to bring are the Royal soft grip, natural bristle brushes.

I'm confused. Am I just going to bring brushes that are going to end up turning mushy? She uses tube acrylics. Do they require stiffer brushes? I think she does have us scrub in backgrounds & bushes. She requested bringing some scrubber brushes. She does have a more impressionistic style, so I can see the bristles become scruffier after they've been in water. But, I can't imagine the bristle brushes holding their stiffness for very long, especially as often as I wash out my brushes.

What am I missing here? I am going to deliberately learn her techniques, so I think it is important to bring the requested supplies if they are intrinsic to the techniques. But, I don't want to later find I could have simply stayed with my soft Taklon brushes in the first place as the natural bristles get all mushy.

[idylbrush]

I don't want to later find I could have simply stayed with my soft Taklon brushes in the first place as the natural bristles get all mushy.

That may be a chance you have to take. You might also find that the natural bristle is just perfect for your style of painting. Unfortunately, it is part of the process.

You might ask the instructor, if possible, if the brushes are required. I have found that many times it is their preference about some products but can be done with other products. Worth asking anyway.

[sashntash]

First - it is fine to post in an older thread and bump it back up. In fact, it's a great idea.... better than starting a new thread on the same subject !!!

about brushes... it all depends on the techniques used in painting.

For scrubbing in backgrounds and bushes, you'll find that the Golden Taklon synthetics are too soft. For that you do need either natural hogs hair bristle brushes or a synthetic hogs hair bristle like Silver Brush Bristlon.

Some acrylic painters use natural hogs hair bristle brushes for most of their painting. If you've ever watched Jerry Yarnell's show on PBS, that's what he uses.

The problem with natural hogs hair bristle brushes and their mushiness with water is that they don't maintain a hard "chiseled" edge so it's difficult to do precise edges and details. But for scrubbing in backgrounds or doing initial underpainting they are excellent. They are also fine to use with a more impressionistic style where precise edges and details aren't important.

In both natural bristle brushes and synthetic bristles the range runs from very soft to quite stiff. With fluid acrylics you can use a softer brush. You can also use a softer brush if you are diluting heavy body acrylics with a moderate amount of water.

If you are using heavy body acrylics without a lot of water, you generally need a stiffer brush - not necessarily a super stiff brush, but something stiffer than a Golden Taklon synthetic.

As I said in my previous post - if I need a stiff brush I use Silver Brush's Bristlon (synthetic hogs hair bristle), for a medium stiff brush I use W & N's Monarch (synthetic mongoose) and for a soft brush I use various brands of Golden Taklon.

And I do use them all (including my natural hogs hair bristle brushes). Each has a use depending on what techniques I'm using.....

[BeeCeeEss]

I paint mostly with fluid acrylics, although I do use heavy bodied paints at times, and I love to paint with natural hog bristle brushes. Yes, they do get a bit mushy after soaking in water, but they are great for scumbling and creating soft edges and blends. I like my older, really frizzy hog bristle brushes most of all because they are great for breaking up a hard edge, etc. Another bonus of the natural hog bristle brushes with acrylics is that they really soak up some water and hold it which helps to keep your paints from drying out too quickly on your brushes. Even heavy bodied acrylics are generally not as thick and full bodied as oil paints are. When the water soluble oils came out, it was quickly apparent that mushy, water-logged hog bristle brushes weren't up to the job of moving the heavier oil paints around. Several different synthetic brushes were developed specifically for use with the water soluble oils. The bonus is that they work great for acrylics, too.

If you need a more controlled application but still want a stiffer brush, the Silver Brush Bristlons are terrific and so are Princeton's La Grande Synthetique brushes. They are stiff like natural hog bristles but they are synthetic so they don't get softened with prolonged soaking in water. They keep a much sharper, neater edge than natural hog bristle, too. Great for control and they really stand up to heavy use.

As others have already said here, much depends upon what type of painting you like to do, the paints you use and the surfaces you like to paint upon. If you paint on canvas, the stiffer brushes are great for pushing paint into all those little depressions between the canvas fibers.

I generally use soft brushes, like the Golden Taklons, for thinner paint applications. For me they are too soft to push heavy bodied paints around very well. But that is a personal preference.

The up side is, natural hog bristle brushes are relatively inexpensive so you can buy a couple to try out and it won't put a big dent in your wallet.

Beverly

[sashntash]

I also love my older frizzy hogs hair bristle brushes - they are great for dry brush techniques.

And, as Beverly said, for softening edges and blending.

All brushes have their uses. You just have to experiment and figure out which ones you like for what you are doing.

and believe me... I have tried them all !!! You quickly discover which ones are your favorites and you keep going back to them.....

[Red 9]

I like the Princeton 6100 for my stiff brushes, Silver Brush Silverwhites for softer, and I have one Silver Brush Renaissance round {really nice brushes} for detail stuff. Those Winsor and Newton Eclipse brushes are real nice, too, but I have not used mine much {yet!}