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kiwicockatoo
09-11-2002, 05:24 PM
Ah yes, the old glazing controversy. A while back someone suggested to glaze like this: put pure paint over top of dry, and wipe it off only to leave a haze of color - instead of making medium soup and glopping it over top. My question is - if you glaze this way, doesn't that break the fat over lean rule?

I've noticed there's some new people here that use liquin (nudge nudge wink wink), if anyone here has any new opinions on liquin, I'd like to hear it. I know we've slugged it out over this before but I can't stand sitting here looking at my bottle of liquin and not knowing what to do with it!

scottb
09-11-2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by kiwicockatoo
Ah yes, the old glazing controversy. A while back someone suggested to glaze like this: put pure paint over top of dry, and wipe it off only to leave a haze of color - instead of making medium soup and glopping it over top. My question is - if you glaze this way, doesn't that break the fat over lean rule?


Doing glazes the old-fashioned way are done in the manner you described. An area is painted over, then the paint is carefully removed until you achieve your desired effect. Most artists now use what is more of a "wash" technique, where paint is mixed with a glazing medium, and then brushed over an area.

With regard to fat-over-lean, that's a good question. If you are doing this when you are confident that the layers you are painting over are COMPLETELY dry, it shouldn't be a problem. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong here ...


I've noticed there's some new people here that use liquin (nudge nudge wink wink), if anyone here has any new opinions on liquin, I'd like to hear it. I know we've slugged it out over this before but I can't stand sitting here looking at my bottle of liquin and not knowing what to do with it!

Liquin is nothing more than an alkyd-based painting medium, which gives you more fluidity/control over your paint (like linseed oil, or any other medium). The big effect, of course, is the enhanced drying time. Not quite as good as using alkyd paints, but pretty good.

Lots of folks use it as a glazing medium as well. It is very translucent, and non-yellowing.

Cheers.
Scott

TeAnne
09-11-2002, 07:34 PM
Kiwi, I reckon Scott has that down 'pat'
I loved using liquin in with a colour mix for a glaze simply for it's drying element.

scottb
09-11-2002, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by TeAnne
Kiwi, I reckon Scott has that down 'pat'


Hehe - hardly. I'm still a neophyte when it comes to the technical side of painting. As an engineer, however, I find it fascinating, and of course, try to absorb as much as I possibly can. There are many others here who know this stuff at a much deeper level than I.

Cheers.
Scott

Gareth
09-12-2002, 05:44 AM
Scott's underselling his knowledge around here... I've just been reading another post in which he hit the nail on the head and said I'm probably wrong. If you put a little oily medium into the paint and wipe it on with a cloth as opposed to putting it down and then wiping it off you'll get pretty much the same effect, but the paint will be richer, with more lustre about it.

When I was at college I bought two bottles of liquin, one for the studio at college and one for home, I've still got them both. So I know how you feel sitting looking at it, but I just can't stand the stuff. I use a mix of linseed stand and poppy oil in my upper glazes to keep the surface wet for as long as I can, so I was never going to get on with it really. Clove oil is another good one for keeping the paint wet, handy if you have to break off after a couple of hours and you're not finished.

kiwicockatoo
09-12-2002, 10:11 AM
Thanks for the info. I'm sure this site is the best place for glazing info in the universe!

I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or not but often my paint layers are touch dry after a few hours - usually bone dry feeling overnight. Works for me. Maybe next painting I will bite the bullet and try the liquin.

Gareth
09-12-2002, 11:38 AM
Kiwi. The drying time of your paint depends on lots of things, the amount of medium in it, the ingrdients and proportions of that medium, the thickness of the paint and the pigment that you are using all play a part, so do atmospheric conditions. Earthy colours, siennas, ochres, umbers tend to dry very quickly, pthalos, lakes and such take longer. Titanium white often seems like it will never ever dry....etc

Fidget
09-12-2002, 09:19 PM
Gareth, can you tell us more about the clove oil. I paint for short periods of time. If I had something to slow down the drying it would help a great deal.

scottb
09-12-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Fidget
Gareth, can you tell us more about the clove oil. I paint for short periods of time. If I had something to slow down the drying it would help a great deal.

This should be get you started - some good clove info:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=77152&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Gareth
09-13-2002, 04:35 AM
Looks like Scott covered that for you Fidget, I checked the link and there's as much as I know on there. I discovered it through researching Gerard Richter, that's what he used to keep the whole surface wet on his blurred paintings, so he could drag a big squeegee across it. Balls of steel. Anyway, it's good stuff, will keep your paint very wet and soothes toothache too.

Wayne Gaudon
09-13-2002, 06:56 AM
While we're on the topic .. HELP

OK .. I am currently trying to do a painting using layers .. have always painted Alla Prima. If I have read things properly.
I can stain my canvas before drawing or after drawing
I can apply my drawing.
I can then paint very lightly applying the base colors of my objects or whatever colors I choose.
I then use a more opaque mixture of paint to add the colors of the objects.
I repeat the prior step but add the final details.
I then can glaze in my final highlights etc and scumble if I wish.

If this is correct, and I am observing the rule of fat over lean, how does one glaze over a thicker layer. It doesn't make sense to me that the final layer is the thinest layer.

Please correct me or explain to me how this all works. Thank you.

Gareth
09-13-2002, 07:23 AM
That sounds about right... One thing I do though is paint the whole image in monochrome before applying colour. I find that establishing the tonal range without the complication of colour to think about aswell simplifies the later stages.

sarkana
09-13-2002, 08:44 AM
I can stain my canvas before drawing or after drawing

yes, but just thin with turps.

I can apply my drawing.

sure.

I can then paint very lightly applying the base colors of my objects or whatever colors I choose.

i think i would recommend you start with the opaque layer, using a medium with at least a little varnish or resin in it.

I then use a more opaque mixture of paint to add the colors of the objects.

as long as it more oily and less resinous thatn the previous layer

I repeat the prior step but add the final details.

yes, but see above

I then can glaze in my final highlights etc and scumble if I wish.

i would use an oily mix for the top layer. or scumble.

If this is correct, and I am observing the rule of fat over lean, how does one glaze over a thicker layer. It doesn't make sense to me that the final layer is the thinest layer.

i wouldn't glaze over a thicker layer. that's how the cracks and shifts and other problems happen. perhaps review the fat-over-lean rule?

lean = paint thinned with solvent or a varnishy or resinous medium. dries quickly.

fat = oily paint, paint out of the tube, paint mixed with oily mediums. dries slowly.

the fat-over-lean rule says the lean layers (washes, glazes, etc) should be on the bottom or foundation of the painting, and that each layer should be successively oilier. a painting is constructed this way to facilitate proper drying. without it, the paint film could crack or wrinkle. glazing with a varnishy medium over a still-wet oily layer would mean that the air-exposed top varnishy layer would dry before the oily layer and crack. or it can kind of bind with the lower still-wet layer and cause a weird wrinkling effect. sometimes the dried wrinkled paint film can slip off the still-wet layer altogether! the fat-over-lean rule aims to avoid these types of structural failures in the oil painting process.

scottb
09-13-2002, 08:49 AM
Gareth:

From the W&N web site, which has a good description:

Fat over lean is better remembered as 'flexible over less flexible'. When oil painting in layers, each successive layer must be more flexible than the one underneath. This is achieved by increasing the amount of medium (binder) used in each layer. A common practice is to add increasing amounts of linseed oil into the solvent used. Contrary to many publications, neither oil absorption nor oil index information is required for observing this rule.

Often confused with fat over lean is 'thick over thin'. Thick layers of oil colour are best applied over thin underlayers. If not followed, there may be a tendency for the painting to crack.

Gareth
09-13-2002, 09:31 AM
I know that one, I'm better with paint than I am with descriptions. Lol.

scottb
09-13-2002, 11:02 AM
Yikes - sorry didn't mean to throw out something you already knew. I thought that there may have been some confusion between the two, based on Sarkana's lengthy post. ;)

Cheers.
Scott

Wayne Gaudon
09-13-2002, 11:47 AM
Super explanation

thanks Gareth/kanana/ScottB

.. thank your very much ..

PS .. it was the thick/Fat that had me puzzled .. now I see the distinction .. this self learning is tough sledding but this site sure is one big help.

Gareth
09-13-2002, 12:08 PM
Wayne.

If it's any consolation to a self-teacher, I was told fat over lean meant thick over thin by a tutor at college and believed this to be the case for a couple of years, until I found out differently from my own research. You'll find better advice and information here than you would at most art colleges.

Fidget
09-14-2002, 10:06 AM
Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

Scott and Gareth, thanks. Clove oil is on the shopping list. But is it at the art supply store or drugstore? (yes, a serious question)

I remember the use of clove oil for toothaches. It does work.

scottb
09-14-2002, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Fidget
Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

Scott and Gareth, thanks. Clove oil is on the shopping list. But is it at the art supply store or drugstore? (yes, a serious question)

I remember the use of clove oil for toothaches. It does work.

Perhaps in a mom-and-pop drug store. The local CVS doesn't carry it (I checked a long time ago). In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it in an art supply store either. :(

Search the new product review system (still under development) for "clove":

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/Products

This should give you a general idea of some of the manufacturers/distributors.

Cheers.
Scott

musket
09-14-2002, 10:28 AM
Studio Products sells oil of cloves. Not inexpensive compared to what the old local mom & pop pharmacy used to sell, but good luck finding one of those stores today... Kiehl's Pharmacy in NYC may well stock oil of cloves too, but I'd be surprised if it's any cheaper than the Studio Products version.

kiwicockatoo
09-14-2002, 12:50 PM
Thanks for the interesting discussion everyone. I had never heard of clove oil.