Issues of toxicity and prejudice/perception

[Potoma]

I will be new to water-miscible oils as soon as I can get my hands on some. I presently do soft pastels and regular oils.

Because of an opportunity to sell in one week segments a number of times next year, I am looking to change things up. Demoing is encouraged in this environment, but it is also very close to a large cafeteria and food court atrium. Oil and pastel won't work, or at least my conscience won't let me. So I thought to go water-soluble.

In researching, I found a Wiki article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_miscible_oil_paint where brands are discussed:

There are several manufacturers producing water miscible oil paint, including:

* Grumbacher -- "Max Artists' Oil Colors", produced using alkali-refined linseed oil or sunflower oils.
* HK Holbein -- "Duo Aqua Oil", produced using an activator which alters the structure of the linseed oil.
* Royal Talens -- "Van Gogh H2Oil", produced using a quick-drying, odorless vegetable oil.
* Winsor & Newton -- "Artisan Water Mixable Oil Color", produced using modified linseed and safflower oil.

The Royal Talens paints do not use the traditional pigments that are based on cadmium and other heavy metals, which further reduces the toxicity risks of working with them.

Reading this made the H2Oil brand the most logical for my purposes. And I figure if it isn't like the oils I am accustomed to, then tough, because I'll be painting, getting out some work while my time is captive and not harming anyone in the process.

I also thought this quote from Wiki was interesting:
You can also make standard oil paints water-soluble with the addition of clear liquid laundry detergent.
My tag on question, which I hope doesn't get lost, relates to the impressions of WMO by the public. Do you label your pieces for sale as merely oil? Does it matter? I blog about all my art experiences and figure I'll blog about water soluble tools, too. Not sure if I'll reveal which sort of oil I used on a piece, as I always reveal whether it was my usual plein air or perhaps from a photo, and photo will probably mean WSO by default.

Thoughts?

[cairns nomad]

I have done both, and it doesn't seem to have made any difference to my sales. Depends on the type of buyer, I guess. I started using WS oils because of asthma. I was originally a pastel artist and the dust was a problem - pastel remains my medium of choice, seldom used now. I paint in acrylic too, but really like WS oils. Welcome to this forum, let us know how you go.

[cairns nomad]

Re brands, I use Artisan and Van Gogh as they're all I have been able to buy in Australia ( I do it online). I prefer Van Gogh, but do buy some colours in Artisan. Check out the Artisan mediums and varnish made for these paints.

[Potoma]

Hi Patricia,
Because I usually work plein air, the fumes and dust haven't bothered me much, but my asthma did protest a bit last winter doing pastels indoors a few times. I have four curious cats, so I really prefer to paint away from home whenever I can.

Glad to read your review of Van Goghs. I've begun pricing them. Jerry's seems to be getting rid of all of them. Blick has a great selection and the medium. I don't like the 6 or 10 sets color-wise and they seem to cost twice as much as open stock. That said, open stock makes me just want to open my pocketbook. Where did I misplace that discipline?

[Marty C]

Demoing is encouraged in this environment, but it is also very close to a large cafeteria and food court atrium. Oil and pastel won't work, or at least my conscience won't let me.

And I figure if it isn't like the oils I am accustomed to, then tough, because I'll be painting, getting out some work while my time is captive and not harming anyone in the process.



I feel I really need to clear up some misconceptions here. This applies to acrylics, traditional oils and WMO.

Unless you are actually applying paint directly onto another person's skin or mucous membranes, you are not endangering any other person by using any of these mediums, regardless of the constituents of the paints. Proximity is not an issue. The heavy metals are bound within the paints, and will not transfer via the atmosphere unless the painting is dry sanded, an unlikely activity in public and not to be recommended in any condition.

Eating whilst painting is not recommended, but this does not apply to those not actively involved in the painting process. There is no mechanism of transfer of the heavy metals from the paints to third parties apart from actual physical application of the paints. The use of acrylics, oils or WMO near others, is perfectly safe.

Do you label your pieces for sale as merely oil? Does it matter?

The only label required is OIL. It does not matter at all if it's WMO, traditional oil, the type of oil, heavy metals or alternatives. And the label of OIL is mainly applied as people are interested in the medium used. They are not at all interested if there are heavy metals used, if it was WMO or traditional oils.

[Potoma]

I didn't mention it specifically, but odor is a large part of my concern working near a food court, not worries that I'd be slathering someone in Cobalt Blue. If I work the claimed-to-be odorless Van Goghs with just water, then nobody could complain about the smell; seriously, in a building with almost 7K people, there's always one! I want my area to be a feast for the eyes and not affect any other senses. The idea of not introducing heavy metals into this area is just plain being considerate to me.

[dcorc]

The idea of not introducing heavy metals into this area is just plain being considerate to me.

But its irrational. As Marty has already pointed out to you:

Unless you are actually applying paint directly onto another person's skin or mucous membranes, you are not endangering any other person by using any of these mediums, regardless of the constituents of the paints. Proximity is not an issue. The heavy metals are bound within the paints, and will not transfer via the atmosphere...Eating whilst painting is not recommended, but this does not apply to those not actively involved in the painting process. There is no mechanism of transfer of the heavy metals from the paints to third parties apart from actual physical application of the paints. The use of acrylics, oils or WMO near others, is perfectly safe.

I didn't mention it specifically, but odor is a large part of my concern working near a food court, not worries that I'd be slathering someone in Cobalt Blue. If I work the claimed-to-be odorless Van Goghs with just water, then nobody could complain about the smell;

Then don't use solvents. If you want to avoid the odour of paints made up in linseed, then choose ones made up in walnut or safflower. Those perturbed about the smell of linseed presumably object to the flax-oil and flax-seeds sold for consumption now in "health-food" shops.


Dave

[Potoma]

[nevermind. it's not worth it.]

[greywolf-art]

I understand your concerns entirely, I would be concerned too if I was painting near a food court, the main issue for me would indeed be the odours from solvents ect, when i'm running workshops i have the same concerns (being asthmatic I don't want to be stuck in a room full of turps fumes, never mind my students) WMO's are certainly a good choice for this as you can use water to thin your paint and eliminate solvents entirely.

W&N do a very good water soluble thinner that is more like working with turps and is virtually odorlous - you would have to put your nose right over the top of the bottle to even discern the slightest of odours from it, and its completely nontoxic too which is good, the only problem is that it doesn't work with all WMO's - Holbeins Duo Aqua for example, this is due to the difference in the way that the different brands are made.

I would not advise trying to make ordinary oils water soluble by the addition of detergents as there is no telling what the long term effects of that would be, the manufacturers spend years researching their products and if it was as simple as adding detergent they would all be doing it!

I've not tried the royal talens yet so I can't comment on it but the holbien paints and the Artisans are both good choices, the artisan paints are a bit thicker than some of the competition but I personally like that as it gives more variety in consistency (ie you can thin it down to whatever consistency you want)

Avoiding the heavy metals is probably a wise choice too - its all very well saying that unless you wipe paint on people they are very safe - but in a public place like that there will be children, children tend to 'look' with their fingers and the last thing you want is a kid touching your pallette then putting their fingers in their mouth when you are distracted and not looking!

[greywolf-art]

forgot to say that using WMO's has no effect on the value of your painting - its still linseed oil and people only want to know if its oils or acrylics :)

[Potoma]

Thank you very much for your reasonable answer.

Talens has a medium available at Blick.

This medium was designed specifically to enhance the use of Van Gogh H2Oil colors. It is formulated with a vegetable oil-based binder, so thinning it with water is possible. This medium makes paint more transparent, enhancing its gloss and improving flow. It is suitable for glazing.

I figure if it has the same vegetable basis, then it'll have minimal odor. Plus I would not have to worry about compatibility.

I'm accustomed to working alla prima outdoors, so I rarely use a medium. However, indoors will probably be different, so I'll get some on the same order; it's only $5.

[dcorc]

Avoiding the heavy metals is probably a wise choice too - its all very well saying that unless you wipe paint on people they are very safe - but in a public place like that there will be children, children tend to 'look' with their fingers and the last thing you want is a kid touching your pallette then putting their fingers in their mouth when you are distracted and not looking!

The issue here is that the WMOs are perceived as "safer", and to some extent are marketed in a way that targets a customer-group which distrusts conventional oil-paint.

In this subforum we have repeated assertions that conventional oilpaints are "toxic", and that using WMOs is the "safer", "cleaner", "more ecologically-friendly" alternative.

This perception that WMOs are somehow "safer", and that conventional oils are somehow "unsafe" requires challenging, because it is ill-informed.

In both cases, it is a matter of how they are used.

If you wish to avoid paints using heavy-metal pigments, then it is just as easy to avoid cadmiums in conventional oils as in WMOs, and in fact the range of alternative yellows, oranges and reds is wider in conventional oils than in WMOs.

Even after avoiding cadmiums (and actually, bioavailability of cadmiums in commercial paints is low - toxicity concerns are more related to long-term environmental impact of disposal), and lead, in doing demonstrations in a public space, it is still highly undesirable to have children (or indeed, adults) dabbling their fingers in paint, irrespective of whether they are conventional oils or WMOs. You need to be set up in such a way as to prevent this from occurring.

Incidentally, its a good idea to look at manufacturers MSDS sheets - and in particular, you might like to compare those for cadmiums with those for the rest of the range, and also make comparisons between those for the WMOs and those for conventional oils - here are links to the ones for the W&N ranges:

http://winsornewton.com/products/oil-colours/artists-oil-colour/artists-oil-colour-health-and-safety-data-sheets/
http://winsornewton.com/products/oil-colours/artisan-water-mixable-oil-colour/characteristics-and-benefits/artisan-health-and-safety-data-sheets/

I have repeatedly stated in this forum that the "easier cleanup" is not a reason to think that it is OK to get paint on oneself - and that just because WMOs will dilute with water, it is still wrong to simply flush washings containing pigment down the sink.

Furthermore, if you are demonstrating oil-painting to casual passers-by in a shopping centre, then you are an ambassador for the cause of oil-painting. We live in a society in which there is an increasing trend to an irrational and ill-informed "new-age" obsession with "health and safety" and fear of "chemicals" - which bears no resemblance whatsoever to real issues of health and safety. I see no reason to pander to this viewpoint, rather, we need to defend our position on real safe usage of materials, and act to educate the public when the opportunity presents itself.


Dave

[greywolf-art]

fair enough the issue of toxic pigments is the same whether its WMO's or conventional oils no-one is disputing that (I personally don't worry about it as I know the dangers are controllable in the space of my own studio, but I know many do - an issue that is common to WMO's and traditional oils)

but being concerned about health and safety issues isn't just some 'new age' obsession as you put it though, we live in a litigation driven society where people will sue for the tiniest of reasons, and you would be hard put to defend yourself in court if someone accused you of poisoning their child if it comes out in court that you used paints that are clearly marked as being toxic! - we as artists need to protect ourselves from misinformed accustations when working in public.

Most of the health concerns voiced by those switching to WMO's actually revolve around the solvents issue and respiratory problems - an issue you can't deny that WMO's help to solve for a lot of us - I personally can't be around Turps without it affecting my asthma, in fact it wasn't till the discovery of WMO's that I was even able to paint in oils at all.

I certainly wouldn't want to be eating at a food hall with the smell of turps drifting by :(

[dcorc]

fair enough the issue of toxic pigments is the same whether its WMO's or conventional oils no-one is disputing that (I personally don't worry about it as I know the dangers are controllable in the space of my own studio, but I know many do - an issue that is common to WMO's and traditional oils)

We're on the same wavelength here, I think.


but being concerned about health and safety issues isn't just some 'new age' obsession as you put it though

Yes and no.

Being concerned with health and safety is right and proper, but there is a difference between having a rational understanding of the nature and scale of any real risks, and what the appropriate measures are for avoiding or containing them, on the one hand...

...and on the other hand, failing to address the rising tide of irrational, neurotic, misinformed, wilfully-ignorant attitudes increasingly seen which are frightened of "chemicals" and would, if they got their way severely curtail public access to all manner of materials due to unwarranted fears.

, we live in a litigation driven society where people will sue for the tiniest of reasons, and you would be hard put to defend yourself in court if someone accused you of poisoning their child if it comes out in court that you used paints that are clearly marked as being toxic! - we as artists need to protect ourselves from misinformed accustations when working in public.

Agreed. No one here is suggesting that she should use lead paints in such a demo, let alone genuine vermilion (mercuric sulphide), for example. Avoiding cadmiums might be wise too, in such a demo where small children are present, though as I have pointed out above, the perception is more what is being addressed there than the actuality, as cadmiums in oil-paints have very low bioavailability. Where does one stop though? Make sure there's no cobalt on the palette?, remove all paints containing manganese (umbers)? These things are NOT in practice, unsafe, handled appropriately (as in, don't eat them).

Most of the health concerns voiced by those switching to WMO's actually revolve around the solvents issue and respiratory problems - an issue you can't deny that WMO's help to solve for a lot of us - I personally can't be around Turps without it affecting my asthma, in fact it wasn't till the discovery of WMO's that I was even able to paint in oils at all.

Well, you could have painted solvent-free in conventional oils. These contain the same oils - linseed, and safflower, as the WMOs. It is possible to clean brushes in oils. Admittedly the WMOs are more convenient for cleanup.

I have every sympathy with those who have genuine problems with solvents or are working in difficult spaces. The WMOs meet real needs there, and it's great that they are available.

What I'm addressing here though is this theme which keeps coming up that conventional oils are intrinsically toxic, their users are irresponsible polluters; and that WMO users are a better-informed, more environmentally-friendly, more enlightened group. This is hubris, and in a site which has as a primary function education, it needs addressing.

(apologies greywolf, I hit the "edit" button on your post, which is why I'm shown as last editing it - I haven't changed anything you wrote there)


Dave

[greywolf-art]

I'm going to put my Diplomatic hat on here:


and on the other hand, failing to address the rising tide of irrational, neurotic, misinformed, wilfully-ignorant attitudes increasingly seen which are frightened of "chemicals" and would, if they got their way severely curtail public access to all manner of materials due to unwarranted fears.

as cadmiums in oil-paints have very low bioavailability.

Dave
agreed the last thing I would want to see is cadmiums ect become impossible to obtain, let children have childrens paints - I want real paints LOL.


Well, you could have painted solvent-free in conventional oils. These contain the same oils - linseed, and safflower, as the WMOs. It is possible to clean brushes in oils. Admittedly the WMOs are more convenient for cleanup.

Dave
WMO's are not just convenient for cleanup, with the water soluble thinners that come with artisan I can use the techniques that would normally require turpentine, so the Artisan paints are a more convenient solution for me, its basically a personal choice that I prefer to work this way, others prefer the walnut oil route to solving the problem - whatever works best for them I guess, the easy cleanup is actually just a bonus to me :clap:


What I'm addressing here though is this theme which keeps coming up that conventional oils are intrinsically toxic, their users are irresponsible polluters; and that WMO users are a better-informed, more environmentally-friendly, more enlightened group. This is hubris, and in a site which has as a primary function education, it needs addressing.
Dave
Yes admittedly there does seem to be a misconception that WMO's are more enviornmentaly acceptable, even though some manufacturers have avoided the more toxic pigments, they are still pollutants that should not be disposed of in the drains, this applies to Any paint even watercolours and acrylics!

I never tell people that I work in WMO's (except other artists that may be interested in them) because quite simply I don't see a difference, to me they are just like working with traditional oils, and thats the way I describe them to other interested artists.

working in WMO's is my personal choice - others may come on here and say that I could use traditional oils instead (and you know what - I do use them occasionaly - mixed with water soluble medium to create glazes with colours that are not available in Artisans) but the WMO route is the path I have chosen for myself and I'll be sticking to it :)

That doesn't mean however that we can't get along with the traditional oil users, the sooner we All stop this us and them dialogue the sooner we can all benefit from each others experience :)

[dcorc]

I'm going to put my Diplomatic hat on here

Thank you, and well-said.

working in WMO's is my personal choice - others may come on here and say that I could use traditional oils instead (and you know what - I do use them occasionaly - mixed with water soluble medium to create glazes with colours that are not available in Artisans) but the WMO route is the path I have chosen for myself and I'll be sticking to it

That's all fine, makes perfect sense.

That doesn't mean however that we can't get along with the traditional oil users, the sooner we All stop this us and them dialogue the sooner we can all benefit from each others experience

Absolutely, I agree 100%

Dave

[rizzok72]

Hi all - in relation to this, I've been struggling with the whole toxicity/enviromental issue. I recently purchased the Holbein Duo oils and love them, but I'm now thinking that M. Graham w/ walnut oil would be better from a toxicity standpoint and environmental stanpoint. Any comments on this?
This stems from my issue with what to do with the leftover water once I'm done with my WMO painting sessions. I was hoping the pigments would settle to the the bottom of the water, and I'd be able to decant the water, but after a week of sitting in my galss jars, the paint/pigments don't settle to the bottom.
How do you all address this without dumping the water down the drain? I'm simply unfamiliar with how to safely get rid of the water (which in turn led me to think about NOT using WMO, and instead using something like M. Graham which is appealing b/c of the walnut oil AND it is my understanding that they use more 'organic' pigments).......:confused:

[greywolf-art]

The pigments in M Graham oils are no less toxic than those used in any other kind of paint! they still use cadmiums ect in their paint so I don't know where the myth about them being more 'organic' has come from, having looked at their data sheets the only difference is the oil - ie walnut oil instead of linseed oil, and you would have the same problems of disposal of waste afterwards!

if you are impatient to get the pigments out of the water then why not try filtering the water through a coffee filter - that might work.

[rizzok72]

greywolf - thanks for the suggestion, a coffee filter sounds like a good idea!

I was at one of my local art stores, and discussed the whole decanting of pigments/WSO with one of the employees and was told good luck! It's not really an issue of patience for me, more an issue of do the pigments settle to the bottom? I actually had 3 glass jars sitting for a week and none of them had settled....I guess I was hoping the pigments would settle like they do in turpentine, etc. If I have to wait longer, that's fine....I'm just curious as to how long does it take?

[karenlee]

I am not understanding what these jars of leftover water are. If one adds water to paint on the palette by using an eyedropper, where does pigmented leftover water come from? Are you using water as medium?

[rizzok72]

I am not understanding what these jars of leftover water are. If one adds water to paint on the palette by using an eyedropper, where does pigmented leftover water come from? Are you using water as medium?

I use a jar of water to swish my brushes in to clean them off while I paint....that way I don't need to use as many paper towels/rags during the painting process, plus clean up of brushes is easier once I'm finished

[mawdwyn]

I know what you're talking about, Steve. I've always got a jar of murky rinse water when I'm done painting. Someone in the main oils forum suggested keeping a large container with some cat litter in it to dump the turps/OMS in (so you end up with dry waste - don't put anything down the drain). I'm going to give it a try - if I ever remember to buy the cat litter!

Callie

[rizzok72]

I know what you're talking about, Steve. I've always got a jar of murky rinse water when I'm done painting. Someone in the main oils forum suggested keeping a large container with some cat litter in it to dump the turps/OMS in (so you end up with dry waste - don't put anything down the drain). I'm going to give it a try - if I ever remember to buy the cat litter!

Callie

That's also an interesting idea....haven't heard that one....so using cat litter, or going the coffee filter route are two options which I'll try.

I just wish it was as simple as taking the water to a hazerdous waste location with the knowing that it would be disposed of/recycled without contributing to landfills/harming the environment at all, but I guess that is wishful thinking!

[karenlee]

Another option is to let the rinse water evaporate, and mix the dry pigment into medium to make a neutral (hopefully!) grey paint. Then you don't have to dispose of anything.

[acadianartist]

A friend of mine swishes her brushes around in a small jar, then dumps the dirty water into an old windshieled washer fluid container which she takes to hazardous waste once it's full. She tried to take her rags as well and they said just throw them out in your regular trash - they wouldn't take them. So much for trying to be environmentally conscious.

And for what it's worth, I didn't choose water soluble oils because I thought I was better than anyone else. I chose them because I have two children in the house and did not want solvants. I've used traditional oils, ws oils, acrylics, open acrylics, gouache and water colours. I know my paint isn't any better for the environment than traditional oil, but frankly, if I could find something less harmful to the environment, you better believe I would use it. The search goes on... we are all just trying to be as good as we can as artists while minimizing the damage our art might do to the environment. We would be much better off sharing information than arguing over it.

[Kent]

To get back to Potoma's original question:

I wouldn't label a painting as "a water-mixable oil painting" any more than I'd label one as a "walnut oil painting," a "poppyseed oil painting," or a "linseed oil painted over an acrylic underpainting painting."

Cheers,
Kent