why no great women artists?

[soulsketcher]

I am taking a women in art class and this question was posed. i am just curious as to what you think about this....why haven't there been any great women artists? or have they but we don't use the word "great"

interested in hearing your reactions

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[puzzlinon]

It's a question of talent.

<i>Ducking, running for cover.</i>

[KPowe]

What about Artemesia Gentileschi? One of the few female Old Masters.

[mame]

Historically, there were many. Their work was just attributed to male artists. Authentication/correct attribution is becoming a serious scholarly pursuit.

[pampe]

Berthe Morisot
Mary Cassat
Artemesia
O Keefe
Caterina dei Vigri
Sofonisba Anguissola
Marietta Robusti Tintoretto
Suzanne de Court
Giovanna Garzoni
Louise Moillon
Susan Penelope Rosse
Maria van Oosterwyck
Hester Bateman
Sarah Buttall
Rebecca Emes
Madame Fragonard
Adélaïde Labille-Guiard
Clara Wheatley
Maria Bashkirtseff
Rosa Bonheur
Louisa Starr Canziani
Camille Claudel
Bessie Pease Gutmann
Otagaki Rengetsu
Mary Wicks
Mirella Bentivoglio
Louise Borgeois
Leonora Carrington
Judy Chicago
Frida Kahlo
Marina Nuñez del Prado
Soo Ja Kim
Dorothea Lange
Tina Modotti
Theresa Pollack
Carrie Mae Weems

and many others you willhopefully learn about in your class...

[puzzlinon]

Eva Hesse

[nonamac]

Soulsketcher, don't swallow that tripe! WE certainly DO use the word great.

Thank you Pampe...

Mary Beth Mackenzie
Frances Hodgson
Dale Myers


nonamac

[soulsketcher]

well i am glad for a reply. i am not saying anything towards one way or the other i am simply delivering information or standpoints. my knee jerk reaction to this was there have been great women artists....

hope we'll dicuss more

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Rose Queen]

The great California plein air painter Marian Wachtel.

Sounds to me like you need a new art instructor, soulsketcher...

[Keith Russell]

Audrey Flack

Olivia DeBernadinis

Julie Bell

Diane Dillon

Janny Wurts

Laura Freas

[soulsketcher]

well..i do like to see emotion when in response to such a question like this.
no need to pass judgement though. it was not her question but of another woman in the art field.. it was a question posed to start the ball rolling on how women artists are looked at in art..as you will remember many women were ignored or went under assumed names..just the evolution. not only that but women were depicted in different ways in art.

but it being a controversil question i understand the emotion..

keep in mind that i too am a woman artist which is why i found the question intersting

[AndyRichardson]

It's probably too late..you are probably past the issue of famous women artists. I think that of the hundreds of thousands of painters throughout history, very few women have made it "big", the main reason being that women weren't allowed to do "important" paintings. Men didn't think that women were experienced enough in the big bad world to be able to really have significant viewpoints. They certainly were expected to stop fiddling with painting by the time they got married, so that they could get on with the business of playing the wife and mother role. This still goes on, obviously, but the ice was broken in the later half of the 19th c. I would have expected great works from Berthe Morisot, had she not died from the flu at the age of 54.

[bruin70]

edwina degas

joan sargent

antonia van dyck

la greca

rubina

jane mcnellie whistler

claudette monet

andrea warhol

vanna van gogh

francine goya

willemina chase

paula klee

jacqueline pollack

rembrandt,,,,ina?

[LazyEights]

http://www.guerrillagirls.com/posters/advantages.html

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[N2ART]

There were/are many great women artists in my book. Historically tho, women have been held back a bit by society AND women have in the past, been the care givers and mostly raised the children. I find as a woman, it is difficult to put any work before your family without feeling guilty. I don't think that my husband has ever felt guilty about working. I feel, he and society think that is what he is supposed to do.

I've always said, I need a wife. LOL If I could JUST go to work everyday without worrying about the children getting picked up, the laundry, food in the house...toilet paper...LOL I might could be a great artist too. LOL

By the way, I love men. But sometimes I do think y'all have it made. I'm sure men think we women do as well. It is all in ones perspective huh?

[arsinoé]

Don't forget Clara Peteers, famous for her till life, and Levina Teerlinc, in the 16th century. Levina was a miniaturist and was allowed by the Court of England a pension that was superior to the one attributed to Holbein.
One of the main reasons why women could not be famous painters was that they were not allowed to attend academies where nude people posed, known for their dissolutes ambiances ( And when you read for instance Delacroix journal, you understand that posing was not the only thing people did on these occasions ). When still lifes were in fashion, they were quite a few renowned women painter. In 1480, one quarter of Bruges guilde officially recorded painters were women. But when the fashion was historical or epic scenes, they were still limited to paint still lifes or portraits, for lack of academical knowledge of the human body.
They were also barred from the cafés where the painters gathered and discussed their art, which were a great source of technical and theoritical knowledge. Berthe Morisot worked the problem around by creating a salon at her parents home were most of the time famous painters came.
Adding the children care, the things were really not easy for them. I'm quite surprised so many still succceeded ;-)
Much more merit than their male counterparts!

Arsinoé

[Vaes]

I wish to add two more important women artists :

Tamara de Lempicka and Paula Modersohn-Becker

http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/lempicka/index.html
http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/m/m-19.htm#modersohn


Vaes

[soulsketcher]

even though i am very excitied that everyone responded to my post..the point of it was not for you to tell me women artists it was for you to debate a point.. anyone can draw a name from memory i was wanting you to ask what makes them great? what makes any artist great? why are 70% of the artists everyone mentioned not known by the general public? why are they not taught in most art history classes?

please..no more names...give me thought out responses

thanks

[AndyRichardson]

At the risk of stating the obvious, art history is A "story" of art. Its usually the story of what 'head changes' people went through in their efforts to do art. It isn't an art appreciation course. And if it purports to be so, it does it only to the extent that students can learn how to see value in works which take some orientation to interpreting from the point of view of different people of different times. It doesn't survey all the records of known art so that you can appraise art for yourself. So, you get someone else's opinion, the "someone else" being a man!

Those who are pivotal in doing art in a new way which shifts other artist in their outlook on art become celebrity artists - either in their own time, or much later in retrospective. If done in their own time, then they have to have a wide audience to influence, and men have had the opportunity to do this more than women.

Now that we have been in the throes of the postmodern age, we aren't supposed to expouse the merits of an artist's vision, since it would in effect be collusion in the power relations that the artist is inevitably, yet perhaps unknowingly, supporting and voicing. We are all supposed to be sophisticated enough to take the "importance" of an art work as merely an artifact of AN art history, a mis-placed allegiance to the power relations of their times. A critical view of an artist's work is ok, since it would be supposedly non-myth building. I rather doubt that one can escape being a product of one's time, language, and cultural habitus, so I don't privilege politically motivatied criticism over any other type of statement. They are all tainted by fallibility, never having TRUTH. To idol worship, or to champion any artist, is just a path along an exploration of meaning-making in the field of art. Its not a once-and-for-all epitome of art.

Just as art history hardly voices the interests of watercolorists, the omissions of women in "art history" is to be expected. Wondering about the dynamics of excluding the voices of women in art history books, and the general knowledge of the public, is to expect the academic world to be fair! Time to lower expectations.

[Gilberte]

Originally posted by soulsketcher
I am taking a women in art class and this question was posed. i am just curious as to what you think about this....why haven't there been any great women artists? or have they but we don't use the word "great"

interested in hearing your reactions

:confused: :confused: :confused:

I've also often wondered but now I read the answers below, the serious and the humorous ones ;)

[cobalt fingers]

Bettina Steinke

Rosa Bonhuer

Cecilia Beaux

Laura Robb

[cobalt fingers]

Milt some of your names seem vaguely familiar...

[billyg]

Well done Pampe, you missed afew English 18/19th century ones. I think soulsketcher and friends will get the idea.
Billyg :D :evil: :angel:

[TheLymner]

And a name I have not seen that should be in the top on any list:
Tamara de Limpeka
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-26153/lempica.htm

ROFLMAO@Bruin

For contemporary artists, check out Mary Deutschman's site

http://www.marydeutschman.com/

[surreal]

Let's not forget Lee Krasner.
I'm sure we've all heard of her husband Jackson Pollock.
:D

[LazyEights]

And the photographer, Cindy Sherman.

http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/sherman_cindy.html

:clap:

[surreal]

soulsketcher,

I am taking a women in art class and this question was posed. i am just curious as to what you think about this....why haven't there been any great women artists? or have they but we don't use the word "great"

There have been many great women artists and the art history books don't place emphasis on these women artists as they do the male artists.

Very sad.

There are many fine books written on women in the history of art, but perhaps not enough art professors assign the books on women in the history of art as required reading.

Again, very sad.

[SanDL]

The art world continues is still full of pockets of misogynists both homo and heterosexual.

When it comes to art or artistry men are terrified of the their competition. A German chef once told me woman simply have bad taste and therefore they can't cook. What garbage. Only someone uncertain of their skills would say a thing like that.

Who proclaims greatness? History? Who writes that? The market for rare goods? The critics? Shadow creatures, they are. Who says what's great? I just listened to some inane drivel of a critic who was discussing Gerhard Richter's work. His words were nothing but carefully chosen descriptive words of the work. No insight. This in part because the critic generally is profoundly ignorant of the artistic process because they rarely are artists themselves. Yes, to be a critic you should be an artist yourself, an educated one. I wouldn't want Thomas Kincaide saying anything about my work although I might ask him about how best to sell sugar to diabetics.

Of course there are great women painters, thousands of them and thousands of great male artists who also are still unknown.

Fortunately, I believe consciousness is changing. We are recognizing great women artists more and more.

Look at the work, figure out the criteria. Judge the quality of the work but be an educated viewer. Forget the sexual agenda. Please.

[Fidget]

SanDL,

You got here first. And said it for me.

'Times are a changing'

Have to add Emilie Carr to the list. It's the Canadian woman in me. Not only was she a incredible artist in a time when the men in Canada were struggling to make in their own country. She also record part of our history, that would of been forever lost.

[Beach Baby]

My very favorite artist of all time, living and dead is a woman named Minerva Tiechert. I adore EVERYTHING she ever touched with a brush. Because of my passion for her work I was actually asked to do a one woman perforance about her andher life. I was so honored. I loved every minute os research and performing. Until recently much of her great work was undiscovered. Seems she used her art to "Pay in Kind" her childrens education. The university , gudgingly accepted the art in exchange for tuition. The work sat roll up in a pile in the basement of some old building until one day they were cleaning out the building for demolation and discovered a huge stash of her work. It is currently on display all over the country. She is one of the GREAT"S of our time.

Why are women not called among the Greats???Perhaps it has someting to do with the fact that for ages it was considered a waste of time to educate a woman in simply literacy. Since men were doing all the writing and reading ...Men took the glory.

Wasn't the composer Fredric Chopin girlfriend/ mistress a woman who went by the name George Sands so her literary work would be published???

[surreal]

Beach Baby:

How right you are:

Why are women not called among the Greats???Perhaps it has someting to do with the fact that for ages it was considered a waste of time to educate a woman in simply literacy. Since men were doing all the writing and reading ...Men took the glory.

;)

[libbylee]

Pampe's post is very eloquent! One of the reasons that people in general don't think there have been great women artists is that the art history books up till about 20 years have been written by men. Until I took a class on women in art I had never heard of Artemesia, and her work is in LACMA here in Los Angeles. (My fault,there, I didn't look!) Most women of the last century were not allowed to study the nude, or even attend art school. Not that they had time, anyway, only the wealthy daughters and wives had the leisure to do what they pleased. Doing flowers or still lifes was socially acceptable, but dismissed by the art critics as trivial. Serious art was done by men. I am continually astonished by finding that this attitude still persists. Get out there and show your work, gals!! You may be in the text in the next generations art history books! Libby

[BratCat]

This is a bit of a tangent, but since this discussion is about artists who also happen to be women, I was reminded of a biography about Alice Neel that I read a few years ago. I'm not sure of the exact date, but I believe she recieved her training sometime in the 1920's/30's and I remember her commenting about how even female art students didn't "trust" a woman to teach them about art-- as if women were not capapble of facilitating a student's a education as well as a man. So this tells me that the social acceptance (even as recently as eighty years ago) was that women were not accepted as professional as men. Certainly this has changed, and is still changing, but it is some food for thought.

As far as women Masters goes, I think that the official recognition is being helped all the time by current historians, and will continue to be the case.

[surreal]

I agree with Bratcat's statement below if the number of feminist art historians increases:
As far as women Masters goes, I think that the official recognition is being helped all the time by current historians, and will continue to be the case.

[Harbora]

Originally posted by pampe
Berthe Morisot
Mary Cassat
Artemesia
O Keefe
Caterina dei Vigri
Sofonisba Anguissola
Marietta Robusti Tintoretto
Suzanne de Court
Giovanna Garzoni
Louise Moillon
Susan Penelope Rosse
Maria van Oosterwyck
Hester Bateman
Sarah Buttall
Rebecca Emes
Madame Fragonard
Adélaïde Labille-Guiard
Clara Wheatley
Maria Bashkirtseff
Rosa Bonheur
Louisa Starr Canziani
Camille Claudel
Bessie Pease Gutmann
Otagaki Rengetsu
Mary Wicks
Mirella Bentivoglio
Louise Borgeois
Leonora Carrington
Judy Chicago
Frida Kahlo
Marina Nuñez del Prado
Soo Ja Kim
Dorothea Lange
Tina Modotti
Theresa Pollack
Carrie Mae Weems

and many others you willhopefully learn about in your class...

[paintergirl]

Emily Carr...a woman who was ahead of her time, but marched to her own drummer no matter what society said. And one of our infamous canadians ...Emily rocked!

[surreal]

I agree with you, Julia.

Emily was a fantastic painter!!!
:D

[neutrahouse]

Women were never exposed to the arts. They were never allowed to go to art school and when they were, they weren't allowed into life classes with nude models - whereas men were. The best example is Artemesia of course. Look closely at some of her paintings and the figures are wrong - out of proportion.

Historically, women were expected to sew, do embroidery, and expose them to real art would have given them education, expectations and made them a threat to men and the status of the family. I'm not a raging feminist - this is all true.

Neutrahouse

[SanDL]

The fear of that threat continues through out the world (everywhere). In those countries where women's education and human rights are suppressed is where the fear is greatest and it is those countries with the greatest turmoil. It is life out of balance.

[mame]

Originally posted by neutrahouse
Women were never exposed to the arts. They were never allowed to go to art school and when they were, they weren't allowed into life classes with nude models - whereas men were. The best example is Artemesia of course. Look closely at some of her paintings and the figures are wrong - out of proportion.

Historically, women were expected to sew, do embroidery, and expose them to real art would have given them education, expectations and made them a threat to men and the status of the family. I'm not a raging feminist - this is all true.

Neutrahouse

Actually many nuns decorated manuscripts but were just never credited for the work. When? I'm thinking...........

(geez! now I have to go on a medieval manuscript/nun internet hunt. Studied this long ago and have nothing to quote here)

[paintergirl]

It was also the training for a "well bred lady" of society a century back ( or more now that I think about it, whew , time is flying!) to sit and draw and sketch in the parlor. Who knows how many of these ladies produced exquisite work that was never allowed to be marketed.

[surreal]

How very true, Julia.
:)

[cobalt fingers]

Rosa's Horse fair 1849

[surreal]

I'm glad this well-known painting by Rosa Bonheur was postedby Timothy.
Rosa was a masterful painter of wildlife.

Here is a link to a very concise biography of Rosa:
http://www.wildlifeart.org/Collections/ArtistBio.cfm?tArtistid=200&tUrl=ArtistBioMain.cfm&UrlName=Artist%20Biographies

Here is a link to some exquisite portraits of animals on a French site:
http://www.culture.fr/cgi-bin/wave.cgi?DQI=jocobis&icon=/documentation/joconde/icones&DBIFIELD1=BONHEUR%20Rosa&DBIFIELD9=Oui

:D

[cobalt fingers]

She was kicking boy butt 160 years ago. This work was bought by the Queen of England and then resold to the Vanderbilts (I think) and gave to the Met. later.

I love this.

[neutrahouse]

Originally posted by paintergirl
Who knows how many of these ladies produced exquisite work that was never allowed to be marketed.


...or how many men took credit for their work?...

neutra

[cobalt fingers]

Which men took credit for Rosa's work?

[surreal]

Also, we might assume that many works in the past that were painted "anonymously" were painted by women.

[cobalt fingers]

How did they cash the checks or build a career as "anonymous"?

[surreal]

They didn't.

[cobalt fingers]

Wouldn't you think they might use a pen-name of a male like George Sands, then you could actually cash the checks.

[surreal]

Of course they used male pseudonyms in addition to "anonymous" being used.

[neutrahouse]

Originally posted by surreal
Of course they used male pseudonyms in addition to "anonymous" being used.


Sad, isn't it?

[surreal]

Very sad.

[gobecky242]

How many of the great "masters" might have been women?

[nam26b]

Maybe David Hockney should write a book about it.

[surreal]

I think there were many female "masters".

You can take a lookee at the following site, which provides some good information on the "master"pieces created by women in history:
http://www.nmwa.org/collection/

[artzyone2u]

Nina,
Yes, they were and are many outstanding women artists, maybe women artists are finally getting their due. Thank you for the information on the NMWA website.
By the way, just as a bit of trivia, Georgia O' Keeffe's birthday is on November 15, just as a side note for those who read this before that date. Truly a great artist and one who wasn't afraid to express her individuality.

[surreal]

artzyone2u,
Thanks for mentioning Georgia O'keeffe's birthday.
I like this bit of information.

I couldn't agree with you more, about Georgia's ability to express her individuality.
O'Keeffe is one of my favorite painters ever.
Her work truly transports me to a wonderful psychic place.
Whenever I see her work IRL, I marvel at it.

Some of my favs of her work are her sensual renderings of flowers, her paintings of skulls, and her landscapes of New Mexico.

:D :) :D

[dodger]

Yes, women artists of the past didn't get the recognition that they deserved, for many of the reasons already mentioned... but isn't it better to just acknowledge this, & move forward?

It's futile to lament the injustices of the past. Many women support others instead of themselves, &, in all honesty, who is ultimately responsible for that? ;)

Look at all of the great women artists that were mentioned in this thread. :)

I'd like to add Doris McCarthy (b.1910 & still painting), Helen McNichol (1879-1915), Joyce Wieland, (sorry, can't find the dates, but she was born somewhere in the 1940's & died a few years ago), Mary Pratt (b.1935)... all Canadians, as well as Lucy Kemp-Welch, an amazing British equine artist (1869-1958).

[bluepelican]

Dodger,

Nice to see Joyce Weiland mentioned. I recently read her biography and was amazed. If anyone is interested it is:
"Joyce Weiland: Artist on fire" by Jane Lind. I highly recommend it.

[neutrahouse]

It is unfortunate that Mary Cassatt's reputation as a painter of domestic scenes has overshadowed her incredible talent.

Her etchings/prints are outstanding - beautifully composed like Japanese prints and the colour! Breathtaking!

I am far less interested in her subject manner than I am her technique and compositional skills.

Neutra

[dodger]

Originally posted by dodger
Look at all of the great women artists that were mentioned in this thread. :)


I'd like to clarify that... look at all of the great artists mentioned in this thread. :D

We don't need to divide the gender camps... good art is good art, period.

Oh, & I forgot to mention Yoko Ono... I saw her retrospective & it made me reassess all of the past negative media, & see her as the highly original & unique artist she is.

[MrSpringGreen]

I tend to agree with Dodger on one thing and disagree with you on another:
1) YES!!! stop calling them "women" artists and just call them Artists. The use of the word "woman" is a marketing/PC gimmick that keeps them separate.
3)yoko ono??? ugh! sorry, that one just slipped out uncontrollably.......I'm try not to be so offensive at the family cookout next time... I can bring the weinies if you want.:D

[mame]

Dodge - just an aside

It took me a couple of months of my first year in college (I was not a kid) to figure out that if I wanted to study/research any scholarly works authored by or involving women, i.e., women philosophers, they were generally located in a section called and catalogued
"Womens' Studies". I mean Doctors, artists, philosophers, anthropologists, Native American, Cultural studies, you name it.

"subcatagorizing" general scholarly works based on female gender was not only shocking and disappointing to me but a very important learning experience i.e., "higher" education".

[Chadda]

As can be seen in the movie, Pollock, Lee Krasner gave up everything for Jackson. As late as the 80s, here in the US, having a baby pretty much knocked you out of 'artist running.' I can say that because it is exactly what happened to me in Houston. (But not so in San Antonio. )

[Beach Baby]

I was just reading about a female poet who called herself a Poetress. Since there are actors and actress's ,does that make me an Artress or a watercolortress.????

Suz

[dodger]

Originally posted by mame
Dodge - just an aside

It took me a couple of months of my first year in college (I was not a kid) to figure out that if I wanted to study/research any scholarly works authored by or involving women, i.e., women philosophers, they were generally located in a section called and catalogued
"Womens' Studies". I mean Doctors, artists, philosophers, anthropologists, Native American, Cultural studies, you name it.

"subcatagorizing" general scholarly works based on female gender was not only shocking and disappointing to me but a very important learning experience i.e., "higher" education".

Yeah, Molly, I know... & I think it really is stupid. But more often than not, I think that it's the women who wanted it that way... special treatment, for lack of a better word. I think women went about it the wrong way... instead of acting from a position of power, & knowing absolutely that their work is equal to men's, they set about trying to segregate themselves... trying to achieve special status, righting past wrongs, justifying themselves... instead of realizing that all that does is continue to keep them struggling. It keeps them in a disadvantaged position. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Generally speaking, when it comes to intellect, women are equal to men. I know this. It is so apparent that it doesn't even need to be discussed. Only when women stop trying to prove it, just get on with the work, & act in line with this knowledge, will it be embraced.

[Chadda]

I do not agree about women separating themselves and therefore becoming marginalized. When feminism first began, the idea was to separate ourselves out in order to be treated equally. Jansen's Art History book didn't have any women artists until 5 years after he died.

The pendulum had to swing quite far in one direction in order to claim the issue. I see it now as swinging back to center.

[surreal]

I agree with Chadda.
The reference to Jansen makes the point.
:)

[Jetsam]

There's still a ton of the boys club reality in art. It is everywhere. But as long as art is defined separately by the people who create it, why should it be included as part of the mainstream? Good art is just that. Women, people of color, etc. need to stop looking from the outside in and just accept themselves as equals in the art world. Others, soon enough, will hopefully stop thinking about 'that interesting woman artist' and get to just 'that interesting artist' . We have a ways to go, I know, but at least there is progress.

[surreal]

quoted from finemist.....Women, people of color, etc. need to stop looking from the outside in and just accept themselves as equals in the art world.

The fact is that all artists want to and should be able to receive recognition for the art they do.

Female artists and artists of color, had not received the recognition they deserved until they asserted themselves politically.

They need to continue to be assertive and political in order to be recognized for their fine and great contributions to the art world.
:)

[dodger]

Originally posted by surreal


The fact is that all artists want to and should be able to receive recognition for the art they do.

Female artists and artists of color, had not received the recognition they deserved until they asserted themselves politically.

They need to continue to be assertive and political in order to be recognized for their fine and great contributions to the art world.
:)

Yes, I agree that females & minority groups had to assert themselves politically in the last forty years... but there was a time for that, & I'm thinking that this particular work has been done.

I would agree that we should remain assertive, as equals, but with all of the past battles for equality, we should have grown enough to step into the big ring... no special labels required. I believe that we're ready to throw away the training wheels.

The recognition should be judged on the quality of the art, or the work alone... not on the creator's gender, religion or colour.

Good discussion. ;) There's a flow from the men's only art show thread, too.

[Jetsam]

Artists *do* need to assert themselves! And some, because of the the way the world is right now, do need to assert themselves more than others. (for example those that haven't gone the MFA route). Matter of fact, I'm a big believer in the do it yourself ethic. Locally, I've supported and been involved in lots of the home-grown shows that have sprouted up in the industrial district. People taking art into their own hands. I know I've straggled a bit from the original post, but I think it all fits into how to make art inclusive, and not dominated by one group. So perhaps we all agree, more or less? :)

[Chadda]

I will believe that we are all equal when the media no longer has the need to mention, for example, "The first woman governor for a particular state. The first Hispanic in the Supreme Court. The first Afro-American golfer. Etc."

We shall not be equal until we may erase the adjective/gender, and may only include the name of the individual into the particular role, and also not consider the honor to be of a particular big deal from the standpoint of race, culture or gender.

[surreal]

I am in complete agreement with Chadda's word's below:
I will believe that we are all equal when the media no longer has the need to mention, for example, "The first woman governor for a particular state. The first Hispanic in the Supreme Court. The first Afro-American golfer. Etc."

We shall not be equal until we may erase the adjective/gender, and may only include the name of the individual into the particular role, and also not consider the honor to be of a particular big deal from the standpoint of race, culture or gender.

I wish this thread were called "Great Women Artists" instead of
"why no great women artists?"


:D :) :D

[dodger]

Originally posted by Chadda
I will believe that we are all equal when the media no longer has the need to mention, for example, "The first woman governor for a particular state. The first Hispanic in the Supreme Court. The first Afro-American golfer. Etc."

We shall not be equal until we may erase the adjective/gender, and may only include the name of the individual into the particular role, and also not consider the honor to be of a particular big deal from the standpoint of race, culture or gender.

True enough. The media is responsible for a lot of this... they work from the sensationalist angle. It's not a story unless they make it into one.

And when you start to delve into it, the media is owned by the largest corporations, which in turn is ruled by the wealthy & powerful (men and women)... it's in their best interests to keep the status quo intact.

This is really an issue of power, isn't it?

[soulsketcher]

this is stupid but i wanted to comment on the "i wish this thread was called great women artists" the thread's name was actually a question posed by a female art historian in the 70s or 80s i think..i can't think of her name but alice neel actaully did a painting of her and her daughter...so it wasn't my words

[Chadda]

"Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists", Linda Nochlin, Art News, January, 1971.

[DanaT]

This is a provocative question. Women did not have the opportunities men had but I detect something more sinister. Sometimes when women painters have overcome the odds and done something truly revolutionary, they've been damned for it rather than praised.

I'm thinking of Elisabeth Vigee-LeBrun, painter to the court of Marie Antoinette. She was the first woman to paint an official portrait of the monarch, yet many point to her paintings as the first sign that the monarchy was in trouble. She portrayed the King and Queen as too human, they complained, and stripped them of their royal dignity. Her portraits, even according to modern day political historians, were bad PR for the French monarchy.

They are still stunning portraits and you see many similarities in respected portraits done 50 years later. She not only was a woman but a bit before her time. Unfortunately, only men seemed to have been allowed to be 'before their time'.

[miek37]

Check out the National Museum for Women in the Arts in Washington, DC!!! Very exciting place!!!! Agree with all the names listed! Especially, Artimesia! She has quite a story, raised a large family and painted absolutely amazing pictures!!

"Just keep doing your art!!"


Helen:clap: :cat:

[surreal]

"Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists", Linda Nochlin, Art News, January, 1971.

Linda Nochlin was in need of consciousness-raising, IMHO.

[Chadda]

Don't judge the article by the title. She agreed with most of us here.

[Jetsam]

The other way of phrasing that question would be around 'serious' art, not just great art. Should women just paint decorative pieces? landscapes, soothing abstracts, etc? I actually overheard something to this effect at a local art show. Worse yet, the statement was made by a woman looking over some of the pieces hung on the wall. She said that women, as nurturers, should reflect that in their art, and that men naturally, would express strength in theirs. She found the painting style of the woman artist at the show more appropriate for a male painter. That comment also made me wonder how many women feel that way, or are at least influenced by that sentiment in society, and as a result may limit their own exploration and expression? :confused:

[Chadda]

No offense intended, well maybe a little, the woman at the show sounds like an idiot. No one can say what an artist "Should" paint like. Not even other artists.

[DanaT]

I find that woman's comments highly insulting. I've been criticized also for making my subjects 'less approachable' when I've painted or drawn women. My response was that I wasn't trying to make them 'approachable'.

[Chadda]

"Why can't a Woman be more like a man?" (My Fair Lady) For years women were told to 'paint like men' in all of the major Universities. Now, let me say that I love the way that the artist men that I admire paint. They paint like them. We paint like us! It is all a part of our personal processes. Unfortunately a lot of the public hasn't gotten that.

And here's another one for you, Dana: "Dull Women have immaculate homes." Personal credo of mine.;)

[Jetsam]

I think that that woman's comment was insulting for men, as well. It implies that men should be expected to paint a certain way. If people paint a gentle scene or if they paint powerfully or on a serious theme because that's what they feel, great. I hate it though, when others start to box others in because of their own expectations. Sometimes people's expectations translate into limitations. As I said earlier, though, it's especially bad when artists do it to themselves.

[cobalt fingers]

It never has been. Making great art is tough too. But 15o years ago it was much tougher. This is one of the world most famous paintings-done in 1848. It hangs in the Met, was bought by Queen Elizebeth and then sold to the Vanderbilts. The Horse fair by Rosa Bonheur...





She was wonderfully successful in 1845. Her painting "The Horse Fair" was THE painting of 1848. It was the one everyone spoke about. She overcame the difficulties and was a force to be appreciated. When one woman was so successful in those times how much more successful would she have been today? And if one woman could do it I wonder why more did not. It was possible-she proved that.

[cobalt fingers]

close-up

[cobalt fingers]

here's an American woman from 100 years ago that competed with men and beat men in open competition. Cecelia Beaux;

[neutrahouse]

Originally posted by surreal


Linda Nochlin was in need of consciousness-raising, IMHO.


Perhaps what Nochlin meant was "Why Do men and/or the uneducated public think there have been no great women artists?"

[neutrahouse]

Celia's painting is just incredible...

Which brings me to another point, earlier in this thread, some were arguing that you shouldn't ghettoize sex and race when it comes to art an just refer to everyone regardless of sex, race and creed as 'artist'. I disagree! Differences in race and sex bring so much to art that is rich and distinct and that should be held apart and celebrated...

Neutra

[surreal]

Here is an interesting paper written by a student, I believe, from the Univ. of Arizona, about female artists in the 19th century. :)


http://www.u.arizona.edu/ic/mcbride/ws200/grp1RuthReport_htm.htm

[bk7251]

Joan Mitchell
Helen Frankenthaler

[cobalt fingers]

good

[guillot]

I haven't seen Helen Van Wyck's name mentioned here once. LOL

Tim.......gotta love Rosa's work and Cecelia Beaux 's work as well. They are two of my favs.

I guess I lost the intent of the question somewhere along reading all of this.

What makes a master a master, is it a MFA, or is it age along with historical propaganda? I would say 90% of the time...it's the work!!

Tina

[angecald]

It's a treat to see these long lists of great women artists. When I was a little girl wanting to be an artist I only knew the name of one female painter, Georgia O'Keeffe. I had read about her in Life Magazine. Although I lived in a little town without much art info I certainly knew the names of Michelangelo, Rembrandt, and Picasso and could probably have distinguished their styles from each other. So the men were 3-1 ahead in the PR game! I think women have always been artists, often great, but not very often recognized. Who first said "Anonymous was a woman"? That being said, the fact is the opportunity to study art was systematically denied to women. It wasn't just money and it wasn't just freedom. Women weren't allowed in the art schools, at first, then they weren't allowed in the life drawing classes. They couldn't (if they hoped to be respectable) hang out in the cafes after the day's work to talk art with other artists. Being in the public eye wasn't ladylike, so how could they establish their reputations? And if they did get known their work was patronized and dismissed. They could paint their watetcolour landscapes and their still lifes, often with superb mastery, but it was an uphill struggle to get beyond that to a place where the male establishment would respect you. Remember, in earlier centuries History painting on great big canvasses was the way to fame and glory. That meant you needed a big studio and a good life-drawing background to be a player. Quantity of output is also a factor in getting to be great. All the great male artists were hugely prolific, while you often see a much smaller output from equally talented women. I'm sure we can all guess at the reasons for that! I salute the ladies, they are all heroines, and I think we could all benefit from studying their lives and how they managed (if we could find any information on them at all).

[Chadda]

angelcald, you are correct. It continued into the 1950s here in the US, too. I agree with the book, "Anonymous was a Woman" in that women were not allowed an education, much less a voice not too long ago. Too many of our so-called masterpieces have, in the past, been attributed to men, mainly because they did not look 'as if they were painted by a woman." Something which continues to be something to overcome.

You men in the crowd, I've been there, done that...to this day.

[sez]

Any one read Stavinsky's Lunch??

Drusilla Modjeska (author) certainly gets the emotions flying over the topic of women as artists in the WW2 era.

Have a look at some Australian artists...Stella Bowen, Grace Cossington Smith, Margaret Preston. Margaret Woodward (Brilliant/contemp artist) did any of these women find a balance between their art, love and daily life?? Did they have men to care for the children?do a load of washing? think about whats for dinner? organize christmas and birthday gifts for two families and still focus totally and soully on their art??? NOT

SEZ... Mother Wife and Artist...or...am I Artist Mother and Wife???

[miek37]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned here, have been away for a while!!!

Here in the USA there is a National Museum of Women in the Arts (don't have web URL handy right now, will try and get it for you later, am up against a couple of deadlines for my art work right now!!!) I am a woman (at least the last time I checked!!!) Am married (40 years and husband is now retired which really eats into my studio schedule!!) raised a son and daughter, cooked meals, go to various art classes from time to time to catch up on new ideas and "talk art" with other artists. Have a health problem that puts me out of commission from time to time. As Georgia O'Keeffe is quoted as saying, "The best days are when I can paint all day without being interrupted by a visitor, the phone or a sick dog!! Of course she was married, no children but found time to MAKE SHIRTS for her husband, Alfred Steiglitz!!!!!! Even after Steiglitz died and she was in New Mexico it was hard for her to find all the"paint time" she wanted! Just get to the drawing board, easel whatever every chance you can. Don't wait for the mood to strike you.

[coolartsybabe]

There would be more names of great women artists on the list and found in the massive volumes of art history books but...

we've been awfully busy

* being content birthin babies and dedicating our lives to them

* being content getting married to men who thought our little art hobbies were slightly amusing, as long as dinner was on the table and the laundry was done, and we dedicated our lives to them

* being content with teaching grade school art classes twice a month and music the other two weeks provided our lives were still mainly dedicated to birthin babies and getting dinner on the table. there's time for teaching high school art full time when you're too old to birth any more babies.

* being content as commerical artists until Mr. Right came along to rescue us from our silly dreams of being a real artist.

Being a woman and having a successful fine art career is still difficult even in this day and age of supposed equal rights enlightenment.

[Isabella]

I know I'm coming late to this most interesting thread, but I just had to comment.

What amazes me is the sheer numbers of names on this thread! While in graduate school I had the great good fortune to specialize in women's history. What is amazing is that women were able to accomplish all that they did---considering the oppression/conditions/societal and cultural restrictions. It was not that many years ago that women were considered "chattel" (property) of their husbands. In one particular culture, when the woman's husband died, she was thrown into the fire along with his corpse. (Of what use was she after all?)

When people ask this type of question....why no great women (fill in the blank) I point them to the sad case of Mozart's sister. By many accounts, Maria Anna was as talented as Mozart and had great potential. In fact, she and her brother toured together as children. At one point she had "top billing." But when she got "too old" her father decided to concentrate his efforts on promoting the brother and so Anna Maria ended up marrying (someone chosen by her father), having children, caring for her father, and -----------------this is so sad-------------teaching piano lessons!

That women accomplished what they did, to me, is simply awe inspiring. I'm sad to say I no longer teach women's history. I had to find an occupation wherein I could actually make some money.

[pattimaggy]

what about our great canadian artist Emily Carr ?

[M.A.]

Emily Carr
Mary Pratt

[oloyd]

I know they say that gender or race shouldn't matter but as an African American 'male' I think the lack of visibility of women (and minorities) in the arts has something to do with arrogance and entitlement in our society.

Whenever I enter a gallery, I'm always aggressively approached by a salesperson (usually female) to consider acquiring a work of art.
The first thing that I notice is that the male artists out-number the females 10 to 1, and of course NO African Americans. (what's up with that?)
When I bring this up, the salesperson usually sputters something about more women beginning to emerge and how the gallery is looking forward to showcasing them "in the future".

When I ask about African American artists they're rendered speechless and actually instruct me to try galleries in the "urban" areas.
I don't even inquire about African American 'women' artists. In fact from the lists of women provided for this subject, how many women were of color?
The irony of it all is that the gallery salesperson would still persists in persuading me to spend thousands on yet another Hockney (or Patrick Nagel ;) ) before I can make it to the door.

I usually say, "No thank you, even though I'm always open to exciting and innovative art, my collection of the European style is already quite extensive and to please call me whenever more diverse art is available." I have yet to receive that call.

So I guess the question is, "Why aren't women and minorities more VISIBLE?"

[surreal]

Hi O,

You have made excellent points!

Nina ;)

[oloyd]

Howdy Nina,

I don't want to sound too pessimistic.
I'm sure things will change as new generations come up to challenge standard traditions.

How has it been for you, as an artist embodied with x chromosomes?

O

[surreal]

Hi O,
Hopefully, positive change will occur in future.

I haven't had problems.
However, I do not market my work nearly as much as I should.

Thank you for asking.
:)

[Elankat]

Evelyn de Morgan

[S.E.Hendriksen]

Sofonisba Anguissola was the first well known International female artist painting a self-portrait in about 1550. Later she become courtpainter in Spain.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Apr-2003/19064-P16.jpg





Best

[gillyvu]

I could name more than a few, well at least ten, but my opinion is that there were not as many great women artists as men because of the way women were regarded. A while ago, not even fifty years, women didn't have jobs as artists, and even further back, had no job at all. So, I think it's just because of history. It's sad though, because women are just as talented as men, and sometimes more so. History betrays us, but we will be the future. Last line sounds kinda cheesy.

[just dave]

Of course there have been many.
In earlier ages there were some but not many due to rigid gender roles.
In modern times it's probably sexism. Who is considered "great" nowadays is much more a result of marketing, the writings of art critics, and the fickleness of the art-buying upper classes.

[sundiver]

I glanced over this thread while at work (school). I happened to have my old art history text from the 70's, big old mother History of Art by Jansen or Janson or something. If there were any women in there I didn't find them. Then I picked up my equally big-old textbook from then: "twentieth Century Art" and thought, well, there will be lots in there. Wrong. Hardly anything. Not because these women didn't exist or weren't successful. Because someone decided not to include them.
There were lots of famous/rich/successful women artists during the Renaissance, especially in Italy, but future historians decided to re-write history, hush up the woman part. Why? So they'd go home and clean up the kitchen, I guess!
Mary Cassatt only got into art school because there was a war on and the school enrolment (of young men, who went off to be soldiers) was way down.
So I guess a simplistic, but not inaccurate , answer would be , because of the white-male domination of the art world.

[oloyd]

Originally posted by sundiver
I happened to have my old art history text from the 70's, big old mother History of Art by Jansen or Janson or something. If there were any women in there I didn't find them.

Thanx for doing the research. Did you recall running across any African American artist? Romare Beardon? Charles White?

O

[coolartsybabe]

Nope. No women artists in Janson's Second Edition.

But in Janson's Fifth Edition you'll find women artists. O'Keefe, Kahlo, Meret Oppenheim and Cassett are in there. In fact, if you thumb through the fifth edition you'll find zillions of women artists. Guess Mrs. Janson got on Mr. Janson's case...lol

[Johamar]

Meret Oppenheim

Toyen

[coolartsybabe]

I just stuck a picture of one of my paintings along with a bio about me and my art into my Janson's History of Art book. So I'm in there now too! Maybe not in your copy, but that's cause my Janson is real special.

[Luzie]

I think it's a social problem/phenomena...

When a woman cooks she is a cook
when a man is cooking he is a chef

If a woman does hair she does hair, the man is a figaro

wherever you look in society (past and also present) if the same thing is being done by a woman and a man, the man's version finds more interest and approval.

Old masters...I guess a lot of it has to do with limited oportunities that women had back then, after all they were expected to be married and respectful not swinging the paint brush:)

Now guys, before you kill me... I have no resentment towards you (what would we do without you...), this is just my view at a long history of unrecognized/underrated women...:evil: :D

[Johamar]

Has anybody mentioned Bridget Riley
or for that matter Paula Rego?

[Luzie]

I just stuck a picture of one of my paintings along with a bio about me and my art into my Janson's History of Art book.

Ther you go!:D

[sundiver]

Originally posted by oloyd
Thanx for doing the research. Did you recall running across any African American artist? Romare Beardon? Charles White?
O

I have to qualify this by pointing out that names often identify gender, but don't necessarily identify a person's race. But, no, not in the 70's version, no African-Americans that I saw, or African-Africans, African-Canadians, etc. The pre-historic section contained African antiquities- Benin Empire, etc.
....Interesting to note that the two examples you gave are both men..... :)

[surreal]

Judy Chicago is a very fine feminist artist.

Her work has been very inspirational to me.

Here is a link to info and pictures of one of Chicago's installation pieces called "The Dinner Party."
This installation piece now has a permanent home in The Brooklyn Museum of Art.

http://www.judychicago.com/scripts/shopplus.cgi?DN=judychicago.com&C ARTID=%cartid%&ACTION=add&FILE=gdinner/frameset_dinner.html

[oloyd]

Uhmn....if I'm not mistaken, didn't you also create a piece inspired by Judy Chicago? ;)

O

[surreal]

Hi O,

You are correct.
LOL

I painted a work in acrylic on canvas, called "Chicago Inspiration" which I posted several months ago on the Ab/Cont forum.

Judy Chicago's sense of design is extremely impressive and she inspired me greatly. She must have inspired a great many other artists, as well.

It's wonderful to view other artist's works, just for the purpose of the inspiration their works may provide.


:D :cat: :D

[coolartsybabe]

At the first art school I studied at, an instructor announced to the all female class that we would NEVER become famous or important artists. His rational? We were women who would give birth. Giving birth was the highest form of creation. This being we females were stripped of our ability to become great artists.

I've seen this attitude, albeit not as blatant, with subsequent instructors both male and female.

Many of the female instructors press the point that as a woman I can only hope to acheive satisfaction in my hobby. At the last workshop I attended, the female instructor told me to never take anything out of my sketchbooks so I have them to show my grandchildren one day as I sit back and reminisce about what I did.

I asked her how I was supposed to exhibit my work if I had to keep everything in my sketchbook. She chuckled and told me to keep my dreams within reason. I chuckled and told her that I was already exhibiting....dah.

Not only are male instructors guilty of reining in the dreams and ambitions but female instructors are as well. The few women instructors out there, hold themselves as exceptional, special, I've joined the good ol' boys club" and are even harder on females students.

Judy Chicago rocks.

[pastelist]

In this male dominated world, women cannot be allowed to pursue their dreams. What men don't understand is that this block is destroying only themselves. Women artists are tiring of their stupidity. Our voice is getting stronger and we are destroying their roadblocks. Today women are being exposed in venues that were off limits many years ago. It will take time, but all good things come to those who wait.

[surreal]

Good points, pastelist.

[taffetta]

Gwen John
Barbara Hepworth, does a sculptor count?
Suzanne Valadon
Jeanne Hebuterne before she subsumed herself in Modigliani
Lee Miller
Jenny Saville

another thing, you dont hear about michaelangelo merisi da caravaggio, which is basically michaelangelo morisi from caravaggio, you hear about caravaggio

the same way you dont usually hear women artists referred to by surname, as if the whole name is necessary for placement.

its really patronsiing when people treat you a certain way if you happen to be a woman, and it still surprises me when it happens to me, because i dont automatically think of myself as female, i just think, person.The fact that i have tits and a vagina has no bearing on what i think, how i act, etc.I am not an automatic nurturing machine because i'm female, nor am i going to exclaim over pretty kittens with balls of string, nor am i going to paint what various people think i should be painting.
Vision and that spark of whatever it is that makes a great artist is not exclusively male, nor is it only recognised by males
Also have to agree about separating to conquer.Its not a good thing, its like kids in a playground arguing across a dividing line, saying my way is better than yours.
anyway, enough rambling, time to go attempt to be great, lol.

[surreal]

Hi Taffetta,

Regarding your words below:

its really patronsiing when people treat you a certain way if you happen to be a woman, and it still surprises me when it happens to me, because i dont automatically think of myself as female, i just think, person.The fact that i have tits and a vagina has no bearing on what i think, how i act, etc.I am not an automatic nurturing machine because i'm female, nor am i going to exclaim over pretty kittens with balls of string, nor am i going to paint what various people think i should be painting.
Vision and that spark of whatever it is that makes a great artist is not exclusively male,....

Very well said!!!!

I agree with you 100%

:D :D :D

[coolartsybabe]

Personally, I do go wild over kittens with string. I'm not the stereotypical woman, but I do love kittens.

I am an artist. Don't think of myself as a female artist, just an artist. When I study art, I don't limit myself to looking only at female artists anymore than I would limit myself to the study of male artists.

My work ranges from the cute to the dark psychological representation of my soul.

I've taken more flack from other women about my darker art than from men. Even my works representing my emotion re womens' issues.

Being a woman is who and what I am. I'm not proud because I am a woman nor am I rejoiceful that I'm not a man. I'm am proud of who I am and celebrate pride in self. To negate male influence on society and art is doing what men have done to women over the ages.

Be proud of who you are. Be proud of the women who have paved the way for other women to be taken more seriously in the world. Be proud of your feminity however you chose to live it. And be proud of your art.

Do not create art with subjects based on what is considered a female topic only because that is what is expected. Nor stay away from those topic for fear of exposing that you are a woman.

To negate the importance of being a woman equates the male view of women not being as good or able.

Create what your soul dictates. Not what society dictates.

[surreal]

Hi coolartsybabe,

I very much agree with your statement below:
Create what your soul dictates. Not what society dictates.

:D

[pastelist]

:clap:


Very Well Said! I don't understand why being a woman and an artist, has to be so difficult. I am finding it difficult being an artist and trying to find success. The various venues are limited and few. I then see and don't understand the male (pig headed) attitudes. The only alternative is to say I'll Show Them.


:clap:

[surreal]

Good points, pastelist!

[jason_21218]

They just don't get covered in Art History classes.

But I'll say this...if you want to learn Art History....a class is only the starting point. Don't let school get in the way of your education.
Google 'female artist' and see what happens....

[pastelist]

Great point Jason, I have done just that and it is amazing how many women artists are posted. Thanks for the great tip!

:clap:

[artmom]

I have just spent about an hour reading every word in every post on this thread!! What a great thread--much appreciated! In particular, thanks for all the links to interesting sites.:)

I'm 63 years old, and I'm here to tell you that times do change! In the 1950s, when I became pregnant (but of course you didn't use that word then!) with my first child, the Prudential Insurance Company of America South Central Home Office required that I leave their employ at 4 months--before I began "showing!" God forbid that anyone knew what you did in the privacy of your home. They would hold "an equivalent position" for me if I would return 6 weeks after the child was born. I didn't go back to work at all until my oldest son was in first grade--and I have never regretted staying home with him.

While remaining at home, I used that time to further my education (I graduated high school at 16, married at 17) and discovered the wonderful world of art history and art appreciation! I always wondered "why are there no great women artists?" Of course, there were--I just couldn't find anything about them at the library! LOL

Sorry to carry on for so long, but just think how far society has come in recognizing women, and so many ethnic minorities since the 50s!!!

[luvgauguin]

In the art world the woman has often been considered inferior, but there were many successful and great female artists Artemesia Genteleschi, Sofonisba Anguissoula,Adelaide Labille-Guiard,Judith Leyster,Dora Carrington, the now super popular Frida Kahlo,Suzanne Valadon, not to mention the great women sculptors...Men are just scared to be shown up:) :cat:

[pastelist]

There have been some great posts in this thread. I found them interesting and inspiring as well. Thanks everyone for their great posts.
:clap:

[Danny]

Speaking for myself taffetta, I love tits and a vagina on a woman. I don't mean to seem crude but its true. On the other hand, the ideal woman and mate would be a business partner as well. To do that you have to have a head for business. That means you have to have brains too. Imagine that concept. I have a huge list of male artist I love and admire, Picasso, the ultimate chauvinist, on the other hand, he had several female students. Let me make myself clear. I loved Picasso but I would have knocked him on the ground for the way he treated women. He said "When you want to have sex have sex when you want to paint, paint." Only Picasso said it much more crudely. Women who have lived with me loved it because I am a Chef, but they don't see me as a male bimbo because I cook. I'm getting way off what I was going to say here. Back to my list. Monet, Manet, Renoir are all on my list of great painters and artist who I consider masters. But this list also includes great masters like Mary Casset. I am a huge fan of ,Grandma Moses, and one at the very top of my list of great masters, Elezibth Louise Veejee Leburn. She was the very first female artist commissioned by the French Court. There are many if not most that are on pampe's list that are on my list of not women, but masters. On the other hand there is a time that the women I have known likes to be treated like a woman, All woman. And you dam well better know what to do with those afore mentioned body parts then. ;)

[sec]

I think that it has been a man's world (and still is, though not as it used to be). It makes sense that many GREAT women artists weren't raised to the status equal of men artists in the past simply because the top critics, museum curators, dealers, collectors, etc. were all men. Also, women in history just did not have the opportunities that men had to go to art schools, etc. There were many women of the past, as mentioned in previous posts, and these women were GREAT. Many of them were wives or daughters of artists.

Women artists, past and present, are just as important and have just as much skill. If art history classes aren't teaching about them, they should be.

I think it's wrong that society in general thinks there weren't any great women artists and that women are omitted from the "canon" of great artists.

People that think like that are simply uneducated.

I also think the tides are turning. Currently women aren't discriminated against. There may be more men in the art world (there are more men than women in almost any business) but there isn't a very high degree of gender discrimination anymore. Women have just as good of a shot to become GREAT as a man does.

And I predict that in the future there will be many women artists (past and present) considered GREAT by all.

[LazyEights]

I was researching something else and came across an article appropriate for this thread. Take a look at Linda Nochlin's paper in Art News, January, 1971, pp.22-39.

On page 40 of the same issue is a rubuttal that I sort of like. In part:

"Nochlin says 'there are no women equivalents for Michelangelo or Rembrandt, Delacroix or Cezanne, Picasso or Matisse.' There are no male equivalents for them either."

signed/Elaine de Kooning

Lazy

[art.angel.2003]

I don't think that is true,"No great women artists". As some of you have mention, there are many great female artists and many great women artist on this website. I think it is up to us to get notice and make a difference in the art world. In the past, women really couldn't get notice for their art talent, or any talent really. Today is different and if you do a little research you will find many great female artists from the past.

[oloyd]

Originally posted by art.angel.2003
I don't think that is true,"No great women artists". As some of you have mention, there are many great female artists and many great women artist on this website. I think it is up to us to get notice and make a difference in the art world. In the past, women really couldn't get notice for their art talent, or any talent really. Today is different and if you do a little research you will find many great female artists from the past.

Very good point!

What if some of the women of this site got together and put on a cyber exhibition called, "Great Women Artists" or "Embracing Greatness", might that start the ball rolling?

O

[jocelynsart]

Mary Pratt.
There are several on WC that I can think of too.
Joss

[art.angel.2003]

I think that is a great idea about putting a women's exhibition. I would love to be a part of that. I a woman and proud of what i do and I know all the other women feel the same so why not show it? So please keep me in touch if this idea goes any father. I would might showing my paintings and seeing all of yours.

To All The Women;
Luv Lauren

[emilypsmith]

There are, do some research. such as the GREAT american impressionist artist Mary Cassatt. Or Berthe Morisot.

[ladywolf1]

*but what if it was women who painted the cave walls while the brave men were out chasing mastedons & sabertooth tigers for supper?

[oloyd]

Originally posted by ladywolf1
*but what if it was women who painted the cave walls while the brave men were out chasing mastedons & sabertooth tigers for supper?

Brilliant point!

O

[ladywolf1]

thanks oloyd...
(*i've often wondered about who actually did paint the cave paintings lol..... )

c

[Smileawhyl]

It is an interesting thought that women were doing the cave painting, but I doubt it as it was the men who were the ones to actually see the game, chase it, kill it and drag it home. I do, however, thing there is a high probability that women were the creators of most of civilization's female fertility icons.

And if you consider Danny's comments upon women and the part they played in Picasso's life, I think it is highly likely that Picasso was a slave to his passion for women . . . for what they added to his life, which he translated to power in his art, and his probable disdain for this weakness in himself. He was such a self-assured artist, but what would he have been without his "woman fix" or someone to wash his undies while he doodled in the cafe?

Women have historically played an important part in male artists' lives as muses. But what support did the female artist have? I think this is a testament to the incredible passion which she must have had in order to excel as an artist. It is not likely, in my estimation, that early female either needed or received the same support. So I am even more impressed with their work.

[Precious Mazie]

Hi Y'all,
I'm new here and maybe you are well past this topic but it reminded me of something a saw a long while ago on PBS. "The History of Painting” with Sister Wendy. I have no names, I'm sorry, but there is a painting that was attributed to a Master (male) and the written criticisms of the painting where all positive. This was a great painting until it was discovered that it was really painted by a woman. And then the criticism was all negitive, the painting didn’t change! Only the fact that it was done by a woman.

We have a double standard even today when you hear these kinds of questions from a student (teachers not teaching about women artists?) and replies that say it’s a matter of talent(even if said in jest). But I am glad to say that it is getting to be less and less of an obstacle to be a woman and artist!

I am looking forward to being a member here and am excited to meet all of you!! PM

[pastelist]

Hi welcome to WetCanvas! Congratulations on your first post.
This is a wonderful forum. I have been a member for quite some time. I enjoy every minute of it. Along with meeting fellow artists, you have access to wonderful forums and learn a great deal as well. Check out the projects area, there are some really neat projects for us. On to the subject at hand. I feel there is little or no mention about women artists. Times must change, women are quite strong in the arts field and our voices are continuing to grow.
:clap:

[oloyd]

Originally posted by pastelist
I feel there is little or no mention about women artists. Times must change, women are quite strong in the arts field and our voices are continuing to grow.
:clap:

At least this is a subject that people feel passionate about. I posted a similar inquiry about the scarcity of African American artists within the mainstream, not being taught about in schools, etc.
After about a month, it's only received 2 responses.

I suppose that either no one cares or that the feeling of cynicism and resignation is just too overwhelming. In any case, apathy rules the day.
I guess it means double jeopardy if you happen to be an African American woman.

[Smileawhyl]

Originally posted by oloyd


At least this is a subject that people feel passionate about. I posted a similar inquiry about the scarcity of African American artists within the mainstream, not being taught about in schools, etc.
After about a month, it's only received 2 responses.

I suppose that either no one cares or that the feeling of cynicism and resignation is just too overwhelming. In any case, apathy rules the day.
I guess it means double jeopardy if you happen to be an African American woman.

That is fairly compelling evidence on some level. It is hard to comment upon something with which you have no experience, and probably goes, hand-in-hand with most historical American writers being white males. While I don't know whether most historians in this arena are male, my perception is that this must be. I work down the street from the National Museum of Women in the Arts. This just might prompt me to stop in and ask that very question. I'd be more than happy to know about these artists and see their works if you have some good links.

[Precious Mazie]

Thank-you for the Warm welcome. I know I am going to like it here.

I love African art I have found a lot of it on Webshots. I don't know if the artists are male or female but the color usage and subject matter are (in my humble opinion) wonderful. If I can figure out how to up load some of the pictures I found I will. (Too new here to know!) Since I have little money for art collection I have down loaded many pictures from the net for my own enjoyment and inspiration.

After considering some of the response here to this subject. I just wanted to add that I do not think that I can divorce the fact that I am a woman or that I am white or that I am over 50 from the art I do. Nor do I think that I would want too. My art is an extension of who I am and though I am many more things then those mentioned those things (and all the things about myself) are a part of me and my art. Just as I would hope that being male black and a father would be part of a black artist (if it were) :)

One thing I have learned is that greatness like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I do not like Picasso no matter how many people say he is great. Thank God for diversity. What makes a great artist for me might be considered the worlds worst for you. After all Van Goth, among others, was only considered great well after his death. From the examples I have seen on this site your all great! PM

[mona-K]

And yet the female masters arent as famous as the males.
But ofcourse there were no little or non birthcontroll, and they had a house full of kids, and a household to keep in order, and food to prepare from scratch.
Laundery to clean without any modern washingmaschine`s.
Clothes to design and sew, etc etc, everything from scratch.
Which woman would have time and money to dedicate to art, unless they were rich, or married rich?
And were also unable to reproduce?
Even those who married rich were painting mostly nice paintings, of flowers, and landscapes, and women were not given any importance.
And it was a waste of time to let women educate themselves because they would end up a wife and mother anyways.
And its not too long back that women were alloved to vote.
So no wonder there were no women masters, compared to the male old masters..
But in the year 2003 its possible for women to choose, thank god!