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View Full Version : How do you store your WMO palette between sessions?


Susan H
11-08-2009, 01:04 AM
This may have been in the forums previously, but I have a short memory LOL! I've been keeping my WMO paints in the Masterson blue cover plastic palette on a disposable paper palette ... but, of course, due to the tendency of WMO to dry quickly, I waste a lot of paint, and thin mixtures dry out before the next painting session. I even keep a very small sponge stored in the palette to no avail. Was thinking about trying the Masterson stay-wet sponge and palette paper, which a lot of acrylic painters use. Any of you out there use it with WMO or have any other suggestions? Thanks, Susan

couturej
11-08-2009, 09:15 AM
Hi Susan, I've used Masterdon palette but without the sponge and put it in the fridge. But I've only had to do this as a short term solution. It works but I was wondering the same thing as I'm about to move up to lager paintings and not sure how it would work for an extended period of time.

greywolf-art
11-08-2009, 10:12 AM
I'm not so sure the stay wet pallettes would work for WMO's, they work with Acrylics because Acrylics dry by evaporation and the stay wet pallettes make it hard for the water to evaporate from the paint.

But oils dry by oxidisation, water has nothing to do with the drying process at all! its exposure to oxygen that causes oils to dry out therefore the only way to prevent this would be to keep the pallette sealed away from air when not being used - which is not so easy!

Take for example if you place the pallette inside an airtight container - there is still oxygen inside the closed container that will react with the paint causing drying to take place :(

the only surefire way I know of stopping the paint from oxidising is to cover the pallette with non breathable cling film that will seal the paint away from any contaminating air - but when you remove the clingfilm it will also remove quite a bit of the paint too and could even cause some smudging and cross contamination of the colours if you are not careful.

dcorc
11-08-2009, 11:22 AM
he only surefire way I know of stopping the paint from oxidising is to cover the pallette with non breathable cling film that will seal the paint away from any contaminating air - but when you remove the clingfilm it will also remove quite a bit of the paint too and could even cause some smudging and cross contamination of the colours if you are not careful.

I do this with oilpaints, and find that for a few days, it works fine. I scrape together the paint first into "nuts" rather than leaving it spread out - I use a couple of small palette knives to do this. I clean the rest of the palette. I then put the clingfilm across the palette, and lightly press it down around the edge of each paint nut. My experience is that one loses very little paint this way.


Dave

Susan H
11-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Thanks everybody for explaining this. I never realized how oils dried. Lately I've been working wet-into-wet with the WMO's and having more success in mixing rich neutrals in small dabs on the palette. Was thinking about switching to M. Graham oils because they take a long time to dry and I think I'm allergic to linseed oil. Bought some walnut oil for brush cleaning at the grocery store today so might try it out. If I change my mind I can always use on my salad! If I do, you won't mind me dropping by here occasionally, will you :-)? Thanks, Susan

mawdwyn
11-08-2009, 04:56 PM
I use this Masterson Stay-Wet palette; I've got 2 of them - one for home and one I leave in my plein air bag. The little blue bottle is clove oil. A few drops on the cotton ball (in the upper right corner) keeps the paint soft and usable for several days. Don't need to refridgerate or freeze it.

457221

Callie

Susan H
11-09-2009, 04:28 AM
Thanks, Callie. The resealable palette I have is the one with the blue lid which I believe is deeper. Will try out the clove oil and yellow palette. Thanks, Susan

jeffreywp
11-09-2009, 02:45 PM
I use Press 'n Seal. It works great! Saran Wrap is my standby, though a distant second.

I didn't like the Masterson Stay-Wet Palette primarily because how badly the palette paper got stained. I know many love them, but it wasn't for me.

mawdwyn
11-10-2009, 12:30 AM
Who says you have to use the paper that came with it? I don't use the sponge either. Just a regular disposable palette - fits right in. I've got a wood palette that fits it, too, but I like the slick, disposable sheets better.
The lid has little "spikes" (see photo above) that keeps the palette pressed down so the paint doesn't get stuck on the lid.
It's convenient for my Wednesday workshop, Thursday painting group, Saturday and Sunday plein-air outings....

Callie

couturej
11-10-2009, 08:46 AM
I do the same I use a disposable palette and put it in the Stay-Wet Palette. I wonder if you put it in the fridge or freezer if it slows down the drying time even further? I did put it in the fridge before but not long enough to really test how long this would keep the paint workable.

jeffreywp
11-16-2009, 09:00 PM
Duh, Jeff! Now why didn't I think of just placing disposable palette paper in the Masterson? LOL! I'll have to try it out. I have the silly thing, I might as well try to use it.

I also have had my students dampen a paper towel and place it in a styrofoam tray that has paint in it and then we cover it with saran or press 'n seal. It serves as a cheap alternative to a Masterson Stay Wet palette.

cairns nomad
11-17-2009, 12:52 AM
I use a flat plastic tray with a sealable lid, and I line it with a very wet disposable cloth. Onto this goes my small ceramic dishes I get in a home goods store and I use them for my paints (small amounts). Before I seal the dish for the night I give the paints a very light spray with water. I don't keep them long and if they go off I wash the dish and add more. I keep small plastic containers with lids for large amounts of mixed colours. I do the same for acrylics, though these do keep better, and I have heard of fridge method but haven't used it, Good luck.

cairns nomad
11-17-2009, 12:54 AM
I forgot, you can also use non-stick baking paper or as a last resort, waxed paper, in your tray. It's cheaper than pallette paper here.

Susan H
11-17-2009, 08:20 PM
Thanks y'all for the comments. Lately I've been enjoying painting wet into wet and always have dabs of nice neutrals that I'd like to save for the next painting session. I keep a sponge in the palette box and that helps some. Freezer paper also works great as a palette as well --I tape mine to a wood palette. Thanks, Susan

kbaxterpackwood
11-25-2009, 05:15 PM
Where does one buy clove oil and walnut oil and do I need to mix it in with the paints?

Kimberly

kbaxterpackwood
11-25-2009, 05:17 PM
Is there a difference in the Masterson Stay Wet Palettes? I ask because my local Hobby Lobby carries them. I have one for watercolors but it doesn't seal.

Kimberly

mawdwyn
11-25-2009, 10:13 PM
You can get the clove oil at health-food stores, drug stores... I think I've seen it at Whole Foods (in the US).
Here's the different versions of the Masterson palettes:

http://www.dickblick.com/products/masterson-handy-palette/

I've got the "painter's pal" (You can see it on the previous page). I put thinner and mediums in the cups, and keep a cotton ball in one of the spaces to put the clove oil on. A 9" x 12" disposable palette fits right in. Works very well for me, but one of the others might suit you better.

Callie

Susan H
11-26-2009, 01:58 AM
Thank you, Callie, As I didn't know about the clove oil or where to get it. As far as the question about walnut oil, Kimberly, I use it as a medium for WMO, instead of the WM linseed oil, because of allergies and I like the way it handles. Technically walnut oil is not watersoluable, but it mixes well with WMOs, and the oil can be easily cleaned from brushes with soap and water. Perhaps we should start a thread about walnut oil in this forum? I know there's a lot of info about it in the oil painting forum ... BTW it can be purchased at most good art supply stores, or online, or even the supermarket as salad oil, but I would suggest buying it at the art supply store ... Susan

kbaxterpackwood
11-27-2009, 10:09 PM
Thank you, Callie, As I didn't know about the clove oil or where to get it. As far as the question about walnut oil, Kimberly, I use it as a medium for WMO, instead of the WM linseed oil, because of allergies and I like the way it handles. Technically walnut oil is not watersoluable, but it mixes well with WMOs, and the oil can be easily cleaned from brushes with soap and water. Perhaps we should start a thread about walnut oil in this forum? I know there's a lot of info about it in the oil painting forum ... BTW it can be purchased at most good art supply stores, or online, or even the supermarket as salad oil, but I would suggest buying it at the art supply store ... Susan

Is it cheaper to buy it at an art supply store? Which WMO's are you using I'm using the Artisans.

Kimberly

kbaxterpackwood
11-27-2009, 10:10 PM
You can get the clove oil at health-food stores, drug stores... I think I've seen it at Whole Foods (in the US).
Here's the different versions of the Masterson palettes:

http://www.dickblick.com/products/masterson-handy-palette/

I've got the "painter's pal" (You can see it on the previous page). I put thinner and mediums in the cups, and keep a cotton ball in one of the spaces to put the clove oil on. A 9" x 12" disposable palette fits right in. Works very well for me, but one of the others might suit you better.

Callie

I may be going to Michaels tomorrow will see if they have this palette there, I know the Hobby Lobby here has Masterson's but I don't recall seeing the painter's pal. I'd like to look at them in person before I buy one. Hubby is making me a pochade box for xmas and I'd like to be big enough to hold my paint palette.

Kimberly

mawdwyn
11-28-2009, 11:33 PM
Lucky you, Kimberly - what a nice Xmas gift to get!
Good luck at Michael's. The stores here don't have much in the way of art supplies. Maybe for Xmas they'll get with it and bring some new items in.

Callie

kbaxterpackwood
11-30-2009, 02:02 AM
Lucky you, Kimberly - what a nice Xmas gift to get!
Good luck at Michael's. The stores here don't have much in the way of art supplies. Maybe for Xmas they'll get with it and bring some new items in.

Callie

I was at Micheals last night, the one locally-ish has/had an excellently stocked art section. Wow everything was on clearance and the gal who works that section said they won't be replacing the items. I didn't look at anything else in the store so am not sure if they are closing that particular store or not. I know the one in Des Moines was reduced by half in the last year, the square footage is half of what it used to be.

Kimberly

mawdwyn
11-30-2009, 03:07 PM
I hope you were able to take advantage of the sale.
The Michael's near me has become more of a fake flowers and candle shop - seems to be geared more towards decorators than anything else. You could put the whole oil painting section in one shopping cart!
I got my first Stay-wet palette at Dick Blick, and have ordered others on-line.

Callie

kbaxterpackwood
11-30-2009, 11:35 PM
I hope you were able to take advantage of the sale.
The Michael's near me has become more of a fake flowers and candle shop - seems to be geared more towards decorators than anything else. You could put the whole oil painting section in one shopping cart!
I got my first Stay-wet palette at Dick Blick, and have ordered others on-line.

Callie

No I didn't, am very tempted to go back and buy some paint though!

K-

Crystal1
01-05-2010, 12:21 AM
When I took classes from an artist here with regular oil paints, he had us use a Masterson sealing pallette and put it in the freezer. The only thing we had to be careful of was to wait at least 30 minutes for the sealling pallet to unfreeze. If we didn't wait long enough, the plastic pallet would break.

I don't know if it's the same with water mixable oils, but I'll let you know as soon as my new WMO's come in the mail.

Helen Zapata
01-05-2010, 01:38 PM
I have only recently returned to oils, via water mixables. I haven't tried them in the freezer yet, although that was my method of choice for regular oils. I could keep oils wet for weeks, even months, by just putting my palette in the freezer. Often i didn't bother to cover it at all. Sometimes I clipped a cookie sheet upsidedown on top of it (since I used a cookie sheet for my palette anyway). The freezer worked great. I look forward to seeing how the water mixables do in there. (so far they are keeping wet on my palette for days anyway.)

Catherine1007
01-24-2010, 09:33 PM
Was wondering.... What is the clove oil for? Why/how does it work?

Catherine

dcorc
01-24-2010, 10:11 PM
Was wondering.... What is the clove oil for? Why/how does it work?

Catherine

Clove oil is an anti-oxidant. Added to paint, it prevents the paint from drying, by inhibiting the oxidative polymerisation of the oil which is what causes the paint to go from liquid to solid. As it is volatile, it gradually evaporates from the paint, and when its concentration has diminished sufficiently, the paint will start to dry. So, its effects are to keep the paint wet on the palette, to extend the "open" time of the paint on the canvas, and, initially, to slow the drying process once it does start.

Even present only as vapour within a closed palette, it will prevent the paint from skinning-over.


Dave

Catherine1007
01-24-2010, 11:47 PM
Thanks for the explanation Dave.

Now I am wondering.. How much do you add to get a good anti-oxidation effect? Does to much effect the paint stability? Also, in using clove oil could any sealing container be used to preserve the paint on the palette as long as you had enough vapor?

I have tried freezing and using the plastic to cover.. with mixed results..

Thanks

Catherine

dcorc
01-25-2010, 12:00 AM
Now I am wondering.. How much do you add to get a good anti-oxidation effect?

Very little! A single drop in a good-sized "nut" of paint is more than enough. You might want to dilute it a little in oil to give more control

Does to much effect the paint stability?

Excessive amounts will severely retard drying, weaken the paint film, and may also be prone to causing darkening/yellowing.

Also, in using clove oil could any sealing container be used to preserve the paint on the palette as long as you had enough vapor?

Yes. a few drops on a piece of cottonwool or similar included within the container.

I have tried freezing and using the plastic to cover.. with mixed results..

Each 10C drop in temp will slow the drying rate by a factor of approx 2 - so, putting it into a freezer would typically represent a 30-40 drop, so you'd expect the paint to stay "open" about 8-16 times as long.

Cling-film/saran-wrap used to be very effective indeed as it was completely occlusive. However, in recent years they changed the manufacture, and it is now slightly oxygen-permeable. In my experience, it will preserve paint at room temp for a few days, and if you also used the freezer, the two approaches would be synergistic

Dave

Crystal1
01-25-2010, 12:11 AM
Like I said before, we didn't use clove or walnut oil. Only kept the oil paints in the freezer in a sealed palette. You can leave them in the freezer for a month. Just be sure that when you take out your palette, you wait at least 30 minutes for the plastic palette to defrost. I believe someone else said they could be put on paper in a cookie sheet, covered with plastic wrap and frozen for up to a month also. I used that method for at least 2 years with regular oils, when I was going to a class twice a week--I just left them in the freezer between classes, and they would defrost by the time I got to class. They lasted through Spring Break too.

I also tried freezing the Winsor Newton Artisan WMO's. I left them for 2 weeks in the freezer and tried painting with them later--they were as good as new.

I don't understand all this concern on the drying time. They have a regular Linseed oil medium that will make them stay open longer, and a fast drying medium that will make them dry sooner. What more could you want?

dcorc
01-25-2010, 12:28 AM
I don't understand all this concern on the drying time. They have a regular Linseed oil medium that will make them stay open longer, and a fast drying medium that will make them dry sooner. What more could you want?

Some people want longer open times on the canvas, so that they can paint wet-in-wet alla prima over a period of several days, perhaps a week or more.

Others are looking for longer open time on the palette, because they have extensive premixed sets of colours they want to keep for extended periods without having to remix (an approach which can be useful, particularly if you want to paint in a "tight" classical style).

Catherine1007
01-25-2010, 12:09 PM
Dave,

I was wondering...

I use Vitamin E here to slow down the oxidation process of exotic oils. Since vitamin E is a fat-soluble antioxidant that stops the production of reactive oxygen, it should also be helpful in slowing down the oxidation in regard to oil paints as most contain vegetable base oils.

I had a bit of concern with using tocotrienols (vit E) at first because of the pigments used in the oil paints. Tocotrienols are not as effective used with heavy metals that oxidize rapidly, such as Iron. But after looking at the chemical composition of flax (linseed) it should work quite well even with heavy metals as flax oxidizes at a high rate too.

So has anyone ever tried Vit E? as an extender?

Would using vit. E effect the stability or the binding factor of flax? If not, do you think using vit E could be worth playing with?

Thanks,

Catherine

hal_s
01-25-2010, 12:31 PM
Dave,

I was wondering...

I use Vitamin E here to slow down the oxidation process of exotic oils. Since vitamin E is a fat-soluble antioxidant that stops the production of reactive oxygen, it should also be helpful in slowing down the oxidation in regard to oil paints as most contain vegetable base oils.

I had a bit of concern with using tocotrienols (vit E) at first because of the pigments used in the oil paints. Tocotrienols are not as effective used with heavy metals that oxidize rapidly, such as Iron. But after looking at the chemical composition of flax (linseed) it should work quite well even with heavy metals as flax oxidizes at a high rate too.

So has anyone ever tried Vit E? as an extender?

Would using vit. E effect the stability or the binding factor of flax? If not, do you think using vit E could be worth playing with?


I think it's safest to only mix stuff with your paints which is sold as art supplies by reputable manufacturers. And for water-mixable oils, it's safest only to mix in mediums sold as part of that particular manufacturer's water-miscible line.

If linseed oil is drying too quickly for you, you could try switching to Sennelier oil paints which are ground in slower-drying safflower oil, and avoid fast-drying colors like umbers.

Catherine1007
01-25-2010, 01:57 PM
Hi Hal,

Yes.. I agree.. It is always best to stick to the manufactures recommendations and product line. Companies have done extensive research and testing on their respective products.

But..Truly, I am just being curious. Since I work with many different oils and know how they react to a variety of chemicals/temps etc. I simply wonder where tocotrienols fit into the mix. Is it feasible to use them to extend a palette?

To that end.. Will I test the reaction?. Oh Yea! Will I recommend or use it if results show promise?. Heavens no! There are variables that could effect the paint in adverse ways and one would need more testing that is not available here in the lab. I would not even post results.

So.. Since it never hurts to ask...I would like to know others thoughts on the use of tocotrienols and if there has been any research or documentation?


Catherine

dcorc
01-25-2010, 02:56 PM
Vit E is not a suitable addition, as, not being particularly volatile, it will inhibit drying. Clove oil is useful because its volatility removes it from the paint fairly rapidly once on the canvas, over the course of a few days.

There is a certain amount of vit E naturally in vegetable oils, but in dietary oils, extra is sometimes added as a way of increasing shelf-life.

Catherine1007
01-25-2010, 04:29 PM
Thank you Dave for your answer.

We have been tossing it about here for fun. And agree with you. Vit E will inhibit the drying time and it also could take some time for the paint to oxidize after adding Vit E depending on amount and environmental conditions. To many variables to be practical.
We add Vit E in base oils and also store them in coolers in air free containers to slow down oxidation even further. It was not a great leap to ask about it as a anti-oxidant for flax.

Thanks again Dave for your response.

Catherine

hal_s
01-25-2010, 06:45 PM
To clarify my point better, if you are just doing practice paintings, you should feel free to mix whatever you want with your paints.

If you think your paintings are important enough that you want them to last for a long time (or even to dry properly), then you're safer using mediums sold by reputable art supply companies for use with oil paints. They aren't THAT expensive.

I would also worry about different water-miscible chemistries being incompatible, so for example I wouldn't use Grumbacher Max mediums with Artisan paints. But some people ignore this advice and I haven't yet heard of anything bad happening as a result.

greywolf-art
01-25-2010, 08:37 PM
I think it's safest to only mix stuff with your paints which is sold as art supplies by reputable manufacturers. And for water-mixable oils, it's safest only to mix in mediums sold as part of that particular manufacturer's water-miscible line.

If linseed oil is drying too quickly for you, you could try switching to Sennelier oil paints which are ground in slower-drying safflower oil, and avoid fast-drying colors like umbers.
I agree, why mess about with unpredictable combinations when the manufacturers have already done all the research to find out what works safely with their paints!

If you are after slower drying times than linseed oil then Winsor & Newton make a water soluble safflower oil which should fit the bill perfectly, however safflower oil does create a slightly softer paint film than linseed so a better compromise for some might be their Artisan Stand oil which though less slow drying than safflower, produces a tougher paint film.

Crystal1
01-25-2010, 10:04 PM
When I bought my Winsor Newton Artisan WMO's, I wanted to try a variety of the WMO's, so I also bought some Lukas Berlin colors (available from Jerrys Artarama). These paints seem to be much more liquid than the Artisan's and according to the maker, they are supposed to take as long as regular oil paints to dry. They also have their own mediums. I don't know if this is any help to you at all. If I am interferring, please let me know.

Woolfthefirst
01-25-2010, 11:14 PM
Susan, I will give the same advice as some of the others. I use a " stay wet " pallet for my WSO's and find it works well if you make sure the sponge stays moistened and you don't forget about it for a week. If you spray your pallet sheet before closing the lid that will help too.

I would like to hear more about your Wet on Wet endeavors. I have been trying it also but have found that but for the most simple compositions I have to allow some drying time before I can add finishing touches and color tone or value changes. I can't get to work like Bob Ross does with traditional oils.

Crystal1
01-29-2010, 03:15 PM
If you should decide to try freezing your oils in the Stay-wet palette, I wouldn't put the wet sponge inside. I'm afraid that freezing and defrosting the sponge on a regular habit would probably damage the sponge. Of course, if you want to try it, just buy a replacement set of sponges before you start. Good Luck.

Susan H
02-13-2010, 09:50 PM
Hi everybody, being the one that this thread, just wanted to thank everybody for their input. Several months ago I bought the YELLOW sta-wet palette, which is smaller than the old blue sta-wet palette, and my paints are not drying out nearly as fast! When the paint starts to get stiff, I mix in a few drops of ARtisan thinner. I also Mist my palette with water before closing and keep a small wet sponge inside. I appreciate everybody's input.

Because I like to work wet on wet on small paintings, I was thinking about switching to regular oils, but the yellow sta-wet palette solved the problem. Thanks everybody for your input.