Talking Heads -- November 2009 (discussion thread) [Archive]

joolee

11-13-2009, 08:43 AM

I haven't seen Star Portraits at all - I haven't seen anything about it on English TV but I'll see what I can find out.

I have been attending life drawing class since September but, oh dear, I think I'm going to be shot down for this.....I'm not enjoying them a great deal. I've been trying to work out WHY I'm not enjoying it. I think part of it is that it is figure drawing, which I thought I would really like, but now I know for sure I am a portrait artist; I really don't like the 3 minute, 5 minute etc sketches as I want to study carefully and then paint; and I would really like to paint some models who are inspiring rather than, oh dear, a touch boring. Where is the youth, beauty or muscle tone?

It might be me though - I seem to be struggling with it a bit at the moment. There always seems to be masses to do, so getting a few hours guilt-free straight painting time is difficult. Also, I am struggling with my eyes - aaahhh the delights of approaching old age! I have always worn contact lenses to correct short sightedness, but now I can't see close up either - drives me mad during life class and gives me headaches.

I did do a life portrait class and really enjoyed that. The model had a great face and we were given a long time with one pose. The tutor was fantastic.

Anyway, I have reached the same conclusion as you, Alison, and have decided to take a photography class. I thought I was doing okay with my photos until I had a look at Flickr. There are some awesome portrait photos on there!

Jools

MSegev

11-13-2009, 11:56 AM

Well Jools, drawing classes are about developing drawing skills. I'm not sure what that has to do with enjoyment, but won't argue that point :-)
Darn, wish we had some life drawing classes around here! I'm particularly interested in mastering quick drawing from life.

greywolf-art

11-13-2009, 02:38 PM

I know what you mean about your eyesight joolee, I've had to buy a pair of varifocals because I was struggling so much to draw from life - like you I've always been short sighted but my glasses always served me well till now.

Even with varifocals I find it hard to shift from focusing on the model to focusing on the paper, and I have the same problem with landscapes / townscapes too :(

Even though I like drawing from life I do tend to work more from photo's because of the eyesight problem, and when I decided to go into business as a professional artist with my redundancy money the first thing I did was to buy a good DSLR camera and some proper photographic lights so that I could get good reference photo's :)

The main thing with taking photo's for portraiture is to avoid on camera flash like the plague as it kills all form and shape immediately!

LGHumphrey

11-13-2009, 04:23 PM

Just saw the Trebek one, and same as you Alison I liked the painting that won. Interesting to note again that she cannot or at least did not do a portrait from life. Ah well, Vermeer had his camara oscura (they say)--we have our computer monitors.

greywolf-art

11-14-2009, 10:11 AM

Well I'm well pleased at the moment, I've just been included in an article in the Artists & Illustrators magazine - where I'm described as a 'Leading portrait artist' that's news to me but I'm not going to argue LOL

MSegev

11-14-2009, 11:07 AM

Wow Greywolf, that's fantastic news! I'm so glad for you, congratulations!

AlisonsArt

11-14-2009, 05:41 PM

Wow! Greywolf, great news. Not surprising though when we see your work!

Alison

Netty

11-14-2009, 06:31 PM

greywolf-art

11-15-2009, 07:58 AM

Really good news Greywolf, we get that mag here Australia, I wonder if it is the same as the one you have in the UK.

I haven't watched any more start portraits online, my server seems so slow, it has to keep catching up which means each episode takes ages to watch .
Jools it isn't on Aussie TV either, so we miss out too :(

I am sure I would find life drawing frustrating too Jools :confused: but I still would love to give it a go. Last week a lady called me and said she was available to sit for me for $25 hour. She is experienced and has sat for other portrait artists, she also has different period costume she likes to dress in which would make it very interesting, as I have really enjoyed painting my Steampunk Lady. It would be great to form a life painting group that meets weekly and we could arrange for different models to sit for us , something to think about!!
If the christmas issue has a skating santa on the front cover then it probably is the same magazine (I'm on page 39) this article was basically just asking artists what art materials they would like to find under their christmas tree, and which contenporary painting :) the lady who wrote the article admired my work so much she asked me to contribute!

I have actually written an article for them before - in the July Issue I wrote and illustrated an article on drawing portraits with just 4 colours with Conte pastels :)

The Lady with all the costumes sounds great :thumbsup: I wish I had access to a model like that with period costumes! the idea of starting a life painting group is a good one, I'm starting up weekly portraiture workshops at the local gallery in the new year and when I have enough members I'll be hiring models to pose fore us :)

joolee

11-15-2009, 10:05 AM

[quote=MSegev]Well Jools, drawing classes are about developing drawing skills. I'm not sure what that has to do with enjoyment, but won't argue that point :-)

Yes, you are right - as a teacher myself, I should know - no pain, no gain :lol: . But I see myself as someone who paints rather than someone who draws. I'm tweaking the drawing contonually as I paint. To be honest, drawing just doesn't ring my bells!

I'm glad you understand the eyes thing, Greywolf. I was beginning to think I was just wierd. My eyes aren't right at the moment so I need to get them checked again. trust me to get back to art just as my faculties start to give way! By the way, I saw you in Artists & Illustrators - congratulations! You have become a celebrity :thumbsup: .

The life drawing is worth doing, Annie. The portrait class I took was really great. As I said, I am a portrait artist, so doing portraiture from life is an entirely different thing. The lady in the costumes sounds great though.

Jools

Peter D

11-15-2009, 10:13 AM

For me it is the opposite - it is the drawing that for me is the primary skill and the one that my clients in the end are paying for. The painting part is far more of a struggle. I love it when I find a drawing error and sing to myself when correcting them but scream when skin tones refuse to come right.

Lauren F-M

11-15-2009, 11:55 AM

Very interesting discussion going on here! :thumbsup:

I have been busy with work these past few weeks, but the worst is past, so I hope to be here more often. :D

While I truly relate to the love of portraiture, which I share, the more you learn about drawing people, figures, etc., the better. It's also very important to learn anatomy, to know why the face, etc. is as it is due to the structure underneath & how the bones and muscles work. There is another topic for discussion, eh! :rolleyes:

I can't stress enough the importance of drawing -- it is the framework you need to advance in painting. Hard to paint well, if you can't draw. Also, drawing helps you see and understand values, line, etc.

I would recommend to anyone who wants to advance as a portrait and/or figure artist to get a nice portable sketchbook (up to around 8 x 10" -- a size easy for you to carry in an handbag or knapsack) and USE it to draw from life. I've done this over the years, and will sketch when I'm in a cafe, a bar, a meeting, a concert, park, etc. As you never know when the subject will move or leave, it teaches you to draw FAST, or to get the initial stuff. I could post up examples of mine if anyone is interested, as I have almost all my old sketchbooks. Also you end up with a artist-journal of your life. It's also an "idea book" -- where you can write notes, ideas, sketch out ideas for work, thumbnails, etc.

I managed to miss "Star Portraits" again last night on TV, but will watch it via the website when it's posted up this week. The subject is Dr. Roberta Bondar, a well-respected Canadian astronaut who has been up on the space shuttle.

Netty, interesting that you are doing a painting of a Steampunk woman. (very nice work!) :thumbsup: I hadn't heard of "Steampunk" until a friend of mine started a local chapter Steampunk group. So, naturally I Googled "steampunk" and learned about it. Great idea to ask some to pose for me -- best for photos, as they are busy people.

Lauren F-M

11-15-2009, 11:55 AM

Please delete -- posted twice by mistake. :rolleyes:

Lauren F-M

11-15-2009, 11:55 AM

Please delete -- posted a third time by mistake. :eek:

Peter D

11-15-2009, 12:29 PM

I let people watch me draw at the market and I think this is important because I have been asked if I traced the drawing and there is no better rebuttal than to do it for real in front of them. Through this I have just gained my first 'student', a Russian woman living here who does plenty of art but feels her drawing lets her down. When I lived in Paris I used to have a pad with me and I spent hours sitting in cafes doing quick sketches of customers, no measuring (you do look daft and pretentious sticking out your arm with a pencil balanced between thumb and forefinger) just training the eye.

Netty

11-15-2009, 05:48 PM

Greywolf , I will look out for the skating Santa :)

Honestly Peter, I would say that drawing is the most important aspect of any painting, without good drawing skills it is really impossible to paint realism. I spent many years attending a good weekly art class where drawing was our main focus, we always had a giggle at what we would draw each week, as it was an array of different things. I still really enjoy my sketch book, and try to keep myself drawing as much as possible.
It is not hard to tell you have spent many hours drawing Peter, your portraits speak!!

An interesting series of dvd's I watched recently Lauren;
Margaret Carter Baumgaertner "Painting The Head In Oil"
It is a very informative dvd, where she starts off with the drawing, she spends so much time covering different aspects of the drawing and goes into detail about the anatomy and structure of the head, and how it attaches itself to the skeleton.,very interesting from a portrait painting aspect .

Today I will finish my Steampunk Lady, it is a really weird but attractive subculture, these steampunks, :D

Lisa Fiore

11-15-2009, 06:46 PM

just to jump in here--I have to agree! I spend as much time on the "drawing" stage of my paintings as I do on the actual "painting" part, because I know if the drawing is off, the painting will never be right! I much prefer the painting part, but don't skimp on the drawing (which, unfortunately, is a slow process for me). I always want to get back into sketching to try to pick up the pace on my drawing skills, but it's hard to find the time to fit it in. And I'm rather shy about sketching in public places--I hate it when people are watching!! :o

kevinwueste

11-15-2009, 07:32 PM

only to amplify above points: with immensely few exceptions, amazing painters are fantastic draftsmen/women. Rembrandt, Ingres, Sargent, Zorn, Fechin, Sarolla and up through NOrman Rockwell, Richard Schmid and Nelson Shanks ( and many more modern masters).. In my opinion, the truly hard facts are these: even if one develops solid/excellent drawing skills, the painting will only sing when the artist/student learns how to truly see hue, value and chroma - and serve that understanding with each paint stroke. Next is understanding the techniques that allow paints to do what one wants on the canvas and to gain empowerment from the knowledge of colors and mixing and cool and warm relationships ( ok ALL relationships!). Finally the artist must be able to make decisions beyond merely "reporting" on his/her subject and that - all of it - is what makes a master..

so draw draw draw and draw some more and work hard to develop your ideas and knowledge each time you draw and paint, do master copies, get great teachers to help you and concentrate every time you begin a new work with the thought that this will be the best thing you have done!

I think..

AlisonsArt

11-15-2009, 09:03 PM

Funny, I had just bought a sketch book! I'd love to be able to draw as fast as a courtroom artist or forensic artist. I started off drawing with the grid but don't use it anymore. Don't find the need for it that I once did. Yes, please post some of your Sketch Book pages Lauren!

Alison

MSegev

11-16-2009, 02:14 AM

Hear hear Lauren and Kevin!!!!

bethanyt

11-16-2009, 02:27 AM

I totally agree that drawing is the baseline for all the painting I do, and my weekly life drawing group keeps my skills in working order. It is one of the joys of my week, and still the hardest thing to do.
I am also a part of a portrait group that meets regularly and has local people to sit for an hour. Excellent practice, and we put on an exhibition at the end of the year, with a really good level of interest in the small town.
I take a sketch book everywhere and sketch figures whenever I have 10 minutes spare. I used to be worried about drawing where others could see, but a trip to draw at the zoo with a friend, about 10 years ago, cured me of that stage fright. She drew the animals- I drew the people looking at the animals.
I have now drawn in front of many different groups and sometimes draw at a local market where we ask people to sit for 20 minutes.

joolee

11-16-2009, 06:52 AM

greywolf-art

11-16-2009, 07:24 AM

Don't worry about it joolee, I don't draw half as much as I should do - I get quite bored with it and find myself having to force myself to finish a drawing sometimes.

Drawing is important but it shouldn't be a chore - no art should be, at the end of the day every artist has their own way of working and looking at what they do, and its the individuals approach to art that is important.

I too prefer to paint with pastels rather than draw with them! its the shading and colour that excite me more than the drawing (that and the underlying spatial relationships but that is something that you can't physically see in the finished work) and I tend to use those techniques when life drawing - which I do enjoy by the way!

When producing an oil or acrylic painting I tend to produce a very simple drawing in sanguine with basic shading to lightly indicate the major shadow areas, then most of the accurate 'drawing' is done at the painting stage, which for me is when the real observation begins.

I don't even think about hue, value and chroma either I just paint what I see and mix the colours I feel would be right, basically despite being a very technical person I don't see painting in technical terms :eek:

I guess my personal approach to painting is to concentrate on the feeling and spirit of the painting and let that and my observations guide my brushmarks, I'm not saying that this would work for everyone, just that it works for me and I'm happy with that :)

greywolf-art

11-16-2009, 07:33 AM

Oh before i get shot down I think I should expand on the above by saying that you do need a strong technical grounding to be able to work the way I do, I just don't let the technicalities control the way I work, they are just something in the background that enable me to work the way I want (dunno if that makes sense)

So for a beginner the drawing is still very important as a gateway to bigger and better things!

Lauren F-M

11-16-2009, 08:42 AM

Bethany,
It is wonderful that you have a regular portrait group with live models. We have one here on Wednesday mornings, and have 2 models per week (one on each side of the room, which gives room for a 'semi-circle' of artists for each one), for about 3 weeks in a row. It helps me so much to see and learn -- though I have a big whack of almost-finished drawings I need to get finished! :rolleyes:

While I do work from life, I also snap reference photos to use for checking that I have the pose correctly (between sessions, in prep for the next week) and to use in case I don't finish the portrait while we have the model. People work in all kinds of mediums -- graphite, charcoal, pastels, watercolour, acrylics, oils, even clay sculpture. I need to be there every week because I'm the one who collects the model money and pays the model. :lol:

As for sketching from life -- I do understand completely about being self-conscious; used to be that way. However, it's easy to be discreet, esp. if you use a small sketchbook. Often, if I'm drawing someone & I think they see me and might mind (though no one ever has, and I've been doing this over 30 years), I just start drawing someone or something else. People are often -- if they get up the courage to talk to you -- fascinated and charmed that someone is drawing from life. For any moms out there, I can compare learning to do it and feeling comfortable to back when I had babies and learned to breastfeed discreetly. It can be done. Also, if you can find a sketching buddy, that might help you feel braver. Or start out by sketching at home and places where you feel comfortable. Or sit at the back of a room in a setting where the people are facing the other direction from you.... I like bars or coffeehouses with live music, as I love to draw musicians. Also, folks sitting and listening, talking, whatever.

There are also some 'sketchcrawls' happening in various places -- I found out about them on WC in the "Artwork from Life" forum. For sketchcrawls, they are organized on a particular date, so groups form in cities and towns to meet and spend the day sketching together. Then you can post up what you drew that day. (To find out more, you can Google "Sketchcrawl")

If anyone has more sketching ideas to share, please do! :thumbsup:

Lauren F-M

11-16-2009, 08:48 AM

One more thing that just occurred to me....

Regarding the conversation on here from some who like to do portraiture but don't want to do figure drawing:

To be more flexible and dynamic as a portraitist, it often adds to a portrait to include more of the figure, esp. the arms and hands. A person is more than just their head & you often can tell more about the person -- which is what a portrait is supposed to do -- by adding to the pose, putting it in a context. The arms & hands can really relay a mood & also contribute to the character of the person, while often improving the composition -- or just making it more interesting & dynamic.

Peter D

11-16-2009, 10:15 AM

Can I clarify what I meant please? I agree that drawing skills are important - of course they are. But having attended life class, I now understand that I see and work better in shapes rather than in lines. Both my life drawing tutors commented on it. I work by blocking in areas of colour - in the life class often by blocking in vacant spaces. I can't wait to ditch the pencil and fill in the colour. When I draw with pastels, I consider myself to be painting. Does this make sense? Strangely, when I was seriously into art as a young woman, my favourite medium was pen and ink. I was doing some serious drawing then :lol:
Jools

Drawing doesn't have to be with line at all and getting the shapes right with whatever medium counts as drawing in my book. Whatever drawing technique we use the aim is the same and that is to get as close to reality as we can. Portrait artists are identified and judged by a number of factors but getting the likeness right has to at the top of the list in most people's minds and if we are not good at this basic skill we should either move on to landscapes or just spend the effort needed to acquire it. The only inadmissible thing in my opinion is to cheat by tracing or using 'artist's projectors', both of which I have heard some artists use.

Of course Kevin is right that the other skills related to the use of colour are valid but if indeed there is something 'wrong about the mouth' in reality and not just in the vain mind of a client then the portrait will not satisfy no matter how good the rest is IF we are talking portraits.

greywolf-art

11-16-2009, 11:28 AM

guess I'd better sell my projector then LOL

only kidding I do have a projector but I use it for projecting compositional grids onto my paintings to help lay out my figures ect, I experiment a lot with golden sections and triangles these days and its easier to use a projector as I can check the layout without actually drawing onto the canvas :)

I too know of artists who use them to trace from photo's and it does seem to limit their ability to interpret their paintings - what they paint is just a copy of the photo which to me is a bit pointless.

composition is an area that tends to get overlooked, but is just as important as the actual drawing, in fact I wouldn't distinguish between drawing painting and composition in terms of importance - they are all equal sides of a triangle that determine a good painting.

Certainly the great masters put as much work into the layout of their paintings as they did the drawing, even to the point of rearranging things like hair and clothing to improve the geometry of their work, to Leonardo for example the geometric compositions were as intrinsic to his work as his use of line and colour! It was only with the rise of the Academies and the loss of artists workshops that drawing was given such an imbalanced sense of importance over the other disciplines - and was the primary cause of much painting knowledge being lost, in the view of the Academies painting was an inferior skill not worth teaching!.

I personally believe that the use of golden sections ect should be just as much an integral part of art training as how to draw and paint, the golden section BTW is more than just rectangles, it encompases triangles pentagons and pentacles too, all of which are useful composition aids :)

BTW If you are interested in experimenting with some of the golden section shapes I've written a simple program that allows you to load a photo and superimpose a grid over it to see how well your photo or painting fits into a golden section, its available here:

http://www.grahamhanks.co.uk/html/golden_section_home.html

Peter D

11-16-2009, 11:48 AM

Brilliant Graham - I have already downloaded it. I've been thinking recently that my commissioned work rarely allows me to take composition where I should be taking it. Composition gives art its soul I think. The rise of the Academies had a complex effect on art and it would be interesting to discuss the positives and negatives. I'm not sure that it was the Academies that that first pushed drawing to the fore as Masaccio got that ball rolling and I don't think there is any necessary tension between drawing and composition

greywolf-art

11-16-2009, 12:25 PM

Have fun with it :)

Peter D

11-16-2009, 01:49 PM

Art is inevitably a competitive world like most areas of human culture but there is also a lot of generosity and mutual support, this place is an ongoing example - Kudos to you Graham!

kevinwueste

11-16-2009, 09:59 PM

Some good discussion - I have enjoyed reading all of it! I am a fan of the golden mean, golden ratios and hope to do a better job employing them in my work ( outside of school studies that can be limited).. I have attended a few "famous-ish" artist workshops ( not many) in the US and often I will hear students/attendees say: "i just want to paint!" ( e.g., they don't want to "draw") and - then I see what they accomplish ( not much).. I have heard people on WC write: "my drawing skills are strong!" when they are not..

The other night a bunch of us watched Jeremy Lipking's video where he paints a portrait of his wife. Now, love him or not, his drawing skills are so good that he hardly has to "draw" when building his painting but he is drawing nonetheless, the whole time he is considering the next tonality to put down on canvas..

None of this is to impugn what Graham or anyone else has said or how different folks approach their work and get great results; it is just my observation on one way that can get people to successful results.. there are, as ever, so many ways to skin this cat..

Cheers,

Kevin

Lauren F-M

11-16-2009, 11:42 PM

I love Jeremy Lipking's work! I wish our public library had some of the good artist how-to DVDs.. they cost so much to order. :rolleyes:

I just got an invite to a Dr. Sketchy evening here in town at the end of the month with Steampunk girls -- should be great fun to draw there. :thumbsup: It's at a cool downtown lounge that I've never been to, so it will be an interesting evening for sure. :clap:

Netty

11-17-2009, 04:21 AM

Lauren, we have Dr Sketchy here too and I looked into going to a nights drawing session, but unfortunately it was more like a raunchy night of drawing porn :( .... I hope yours is not so bad.

greywolf-art

11-17-2009, 06:31 AM

None of this is to impugn what Graham or anyone else has said or how different folks approach their work and get great results; it is just my observation on one way that can get people to successful results.. there are, as ever, so many ways to skin this cat..

Cheers,

Kevin
which is part of what I was trying to get across - there are indeed many ways to skin a cat, which is why I don't like to see people put under pressure to work in a specific way, we each need to find a path that suits us as individuals.

If for example one person doesn't get satisfaction from drawing but loves playing with colour then they should be allowed to explore that without being told they are wrong, thats not to say that we shouldn't encourage them to try to improve their drawing skills, just that they shouldn't be made to feel inadequate because they don't feel as comfortable with drawing.

If I seem a bit evangelical about allowing people to develop in their own way its probably because of my own personal experiences as an artist, here in Doncaster the Art community and establishment is dominated by abstract and expressionist painters, many of whom are big fans of painters like Frank Auerbach (whose work does absolutely nothing for me LOL) which is fine if thats what they like,

The trouble is that a painter like myself who is very meticulous is basically dismissed by the local art community as not being a proper artist, the usual comments I get are that I need to loosen up and be more 'painterly' (being able to accurately paint what you see Isn't painterly?) or that maybe I should be an illustrator (if I wanted to be an illustrator I'd have followed that path long ago - I want to be a painter) or at a recent workshop where we were encouraged to splash paint onto paper then make a picture out of it and the artist then suggested to me that I'd get more satisfaction out of art if I did that kind of painting instead of what I normally do (why? to me it felt like we were just playing kids games instead of creating real art - and so did the others at the art club BTW)

It got so bad that I actually began to doubt myself as an artist and for three months I hardly painted at all because I was so dissilusioned, its only recently that I've managed to come out of that malaise and fight back as an artist, now if anyone makes those kinds of comments I just tell them to get lost and worry about their own work - I paint for myself not for them!

I'm not having a go at anyone on here btw, I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from when I defend others rights to take their own path in art

Oilybloke

11-17-2009, 07:53 AM

Interesting points , this is my look on this as to how i paint is a drawing has to be spot on before i begin to paint as it then give's me confidence to know i will finish with the likeness , painting is very new to me but i still feel if i was poor at sketching my painting would suffer as a result .
Everybody is different and have strong and weak areas but the end result is what matters:)

joolee

11-17-2009, 08:53 AM

No offence taken at anything anyone has said here. I listen to what others have to say, (and actually I learn a great deal from people on this site), but if I don't like what I'm hearing, I ignore it. What works for one, might not work for another.

Having said all that, I might not be enjoying the life classes as much as I had hoped, but I agree that they are probably helping me to improve.
Jools

Peter D

11-17-2009, 08:56 AM

. I have heard people on WC write: "my drawing skills are strong!" when they are not.....Kevin

Oh dear that might have been me.

My experience in my two years studying art before running off to Paris were dismal and similar to Graham's. I take it we are talking about what skills we need in realistic portraiture with an extension to figure painting and not 'Art' in any wider sense. While I accept relativism for Art in a wider sense I do not think that anything goes or that all approaches are equally valid when it comes to portraits or figure painting and in these drawing has to be a primary and necessary skill. As I and others have said drawing can be done with line, tonal shapes or directly alla prima with the brush but the aim is accuracy or shapes, length of line and angle etc. Any approach which does not value accuracy is not necessarily invalid as Art but it will fail any test of quality for realistic painting of the human form and that is the most we can say.

Leigh says he needs an accurate drawing before he begins painting whereas I prefer a rough sketch giving positions of features and forms without tying me down but this is largely a question of personal taste since the objective is the same. People who avoid this objective by cheating or simply not making the effort to get things right are not giving their clients the service they deserve.

Lauren F-M

11-17-2009, 08:57 AM

While I've been studying/doing art all my life (though I didn't do as much while my kids were growing up, I do feel I was being creative in lots of other ways), I find that I am my harshest critic.

Perhaps others here also find they are pretty severe with themselves, constantly demanding more, thinking more work in various areas must be done. And isn't it great when I do notice some improvement or new awareness of something. :thumbsup:

Gotta keep raising the bar! :evil:

kevinwueste

11-17-2009, 09:03 AM

Hey Peter - NOT you .. at least not in a post I saw!).. And as to your note above: well said ( re: the many forms of drawing in support of a painting and perhaps more importantly - if one wants to be ( my version of what you said) a classical realist, whether you are a loose or tight painter - getting your "drawing" to reflect the shapes you see is merely the beginning of a good painting.. ).. I find that a good painting requires about 98 percent of the great work done on the drawing - and THEN another 98 percent of the work on the painting to get to a good/great place. My math is screwy but that's what it feels like. Drawing wonderfully in a classical realist fashion and producing beautiful work is immensely difficult. Painting wonderfully in a classical realist fashion and producing beautiful work is again immensely difficult so I have respect for everyone who gives it their best. I wonder when anyone goes to see a nice painting or drawing at a museum - do "civilians" have any inkling how difficult it was to make those works??!!

greywolf-art

11-17-2009, 09:52 AM

I wonder when anyone goes to see a nice painting or drawing at a museum - do "civilians" have any inkling how difficult it was to make those works??!!
Probably not LOL, I find that most people seem think it only takes a couple of days to produce a painting - probably a reflection of the throwaway mass produced society we live in!

I was chatting to my uncle a few weeks back about a visit I made to the National Gallery and how inspiring it was, I then proceeded to explain just how long many of those paintings took and the sheer amount of work involved - even having to make their own paints ect, and he was completely shocked by it all (and developed a greater appreciation for the classical works as a result)

It is a lot easier today with pre-mixed paints, but to create a true work of art in the field that we operate in is still a major undertaking - I have one painting that I'd worked on for 5 months, until it fell over and developed a 6" gash in the middle of the painting (soul destroying or what!) and it would have been a couple months more work before I'd have been satisfied with it :rolleyes:

Peter D, I think its a symptom of the British art world that portrait artists seem to get a raw deal from the establishment, I get the impression that America seems to be far more welcoming of realist art don't you think?

MSegev

11-17-2009, 11:21 AM

Since this has turned into an important debate, I suggest that we don't obfuscate the subject and make sure that we all speak of the same thing.

In my book and probably in most dictionaries, “drawing” is defined as the act of making marks on a surface so as to create an image, form or shape. The methods and extent of marking may differ, but the principle is the same. Adequate drawing skill implies the ability to “see” accurately and then transfer that insight onto a surface of choice. Considering the complexity of human structure and individual variations in terms of size, shape and form, how important is accurate drawing in portraiture? I would dare say “extremely important” and even critical. I think the artists who believe that they can ever become successful portraitists by skipping drawing skills and solely rely on projectors, grids and tracing, are deluding themselves, as there is so much more to an individual person than shape and contour.
Bottom line is, there could be different ways to “skin a cat” but I only know of one way to obtain drawing skills and that is by hard, continuous work. I'm also sorry to note that too often the term “loose painting” is used to cover for inadequacy. The hard reality is that successful “loose” painters, such as Aldo Balding and Susan Carlin are fabulous drawers as well. “Loose” can't possibly work if the drawing and values are off. Speaking of which, even Richard Schmid is a “loose” painter, as opposed to Marvin Mattelson, and can any of us imagine such quality achieved with no solid drawing background? Can we imagine a tone-deaf musician?
On a different note, what artist, in his right mind, wouldn't want the ability to draw as well as that same Lipking, Liberace or Dirk from WC.

As a teen I went to an art leaning high school, where the kids attended separate art classes. Some went to study music, others drama or visual arts. The interesting part was that music was taught by real masters, while painting and drawing by amateurs. None of the three teachers at the visual arts section knew how to draw. Moreover, they insisted it was completely unnecessary. I lost interest in studies there real quick and consider those years a huge waste of time and resources. These days I continue encountering graduates from Art Academies who equally can't draw but believe that mindless paint-strokes constitute a painting. I just wish that we would quit cultivating the culture of inadequacy in any field, not just art.

Peter D

11-17-2009, 11:52 AM

Good points Kevin, Mary and Graham. I am not sure that today the portrait scene in the UK is less vibrant for example than in the US - strange as it may sound I think Rolf Harris with Star Portraits did start something in the public mind and several England clients have mentioned that programme but I am in Spain so not in touch. As Mary has said 'loose' can cover a multitude of drawing sins as well as providing portraits that really sing as with Schmid and Balding but they alongside tight painters such as David Kassan or Marvin demonstrate often in public the great drawing skills they have.

All of that said aren't we all agreeing with each other? Is there anyone here defending tracing and projectors as an alternative to the hard work of improving drawing skills or saying that accuracy is umimportant in portrait or figure painting?

greywolf-art

11-17-2009, 12:09 PM

LOL compared to the painters that dominate the art scene round here Aldo Balding is a very tight painter! in fact he would probably be dismissed as an over sentimental magazine type illustrator and be told he should be illustrating mills and boon books :eek:

Seriously, I entered a local townscape painting competition recently with the prize being to go to America as part of a cultural swap with our twin town of Wilmington, TBH I didn't expect to win because I didn't consider my paintings to be good enough (I haven't done townscapes in years) but this is the painting that won:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Nov-2009/178945-winning_painting_doncaster.jpg

As soon as I saw it I knew it would win because I know the mindset of the people who judge these sort of things around here, this is considered the height of artistic acheivement in doncaster, to me its badly drawn and messily painted (the figure in the background is a joke), but to say so would simply alienate the people who form the local art establishment :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the expressionist lot (I try to be open minded about all artists) I'm just fed up with being dismissed for not being one of them!

greywolf-art

11-17-2009, 12:26 PM

All of that said aren't we all agreeing with each other? Is there anyone here defending tracing and projectors as an alternative to the hard work of improving drawing skills or saying that accuracy is umimportant in portrait or figure painting?

Absolutely, on another forum I go to somebody was asking for help because they couldn't get a portrait right and couldn't figure out where they had gone wrong, one guy (an illustrator) said why not just use tracing paper and graphite paper to transfer the drawing directly from the photograph :eek: when I pointed out that tracing would not only be cheating but would eliminate the struggle to get the drawing right by eye - which is all part of the artistic process, he just didn't get it, luckily the artist doing the portrait understood what I meant and agreed.

Lauren F-M

11-17-2009, 12:47 PM

Actually, tracing & projecting do have their place; as long as the artist does also draw from life and knows how to do it.

As I also do illustration work and other commission work (mural), I've learned to use a photocopier to blow up or reduce the size of work I'm doing, so I can cut and paste to work out the final design.

I also use tracing paper and a little light table to rework sketches & designs. When in a rush in the past, I have traced a photo that I'm using in an illustration, as time matters. Yes, I could draw it out again -- without a grid, as I hate them & find I don't need them -- but time sometimes matters. When blowing things up or reducing I often need to readapt them by eye to correct, and then often change the figure a lot: change the sex, the age, the race... whatever. I also have one of those little opaque-type projectors one can use to enlarge a picture, but haven't had the opportunity to use it.

For my "fine art" however, I don't trace photos or project them up on my surface to trace off; I work from scratch. These days I find I don't trace photos at all, but if I did, I wouldn't feel guilty, as I know I can draw it from scratch just as accurately.

These are all tools, and again I will note that an artist is their own (or should be) severist critic.

Lauren F-M

11-17-2009, 12:49 PM

Absolutely, on another forum I go to somebody was asking for help because they couldn't get a portrait right and couldn't figure out where they had gone wrong, one guy (an illustrator) said why not just use tracing paper and graphite paper to transfer the drawing directly from the photograph :eek: when I pointed out that tracing would not only be cheating but would eliminate the struggle to get the drawing right by eye - which is all part of the artistic process, he just didn't get it, luckily the artist doing the portrait understood what I meant and agreed.

An interesting thing one can do to check how accurately their "scratch" drawing is: get a copy of the photo reference the same size (via photocopy or using the computer) and superimpose it over to see if you are off, and if so, where.

Peter D

11-17-2009, 12:52 PM

Lauren F-M

11-17-2009, 12:54 PM

Back to Star Portraits --

Watched the latest episode on the Internet last night. The subject was the neurosurgeon/astronaut, Roberta Bondar & there were 3 young artists painting her. All did very nice work, I thought, and I really like the one that won.

Again, I find that one thing I am learning from this show is the interaction between the portrait subject and the portrait artist. It's really interesting to hear what the subject thinks of each portrait & what part of their personality was captured. Also, to hear the artists' different processes.

I'd love to do a portrait of the show's host, Louise Pitre. She is a beautiful and delightful woman. I think she is doing a great job hosting. :thumbsup:

Next week's subject will be Ashley MacIsaac, a young Cape Breton fiddler who also is quite a character. Should be another interesting show. :D

Lauren F-M

11-17-2009, 12:58 PM

Clients don't just want to know if you can draw but if you drew THEIR portrait - I cannot imagine saying to a client 'look it doesn't matter if I traced your portrait since I do know how to draw when I can be bothered to make the effort." I am only talking about commissioned portraiture here.

I agree. I would never trace a photo for a portrait now. I take my time now too. Since studying atelier techniques, I find I am taking longer and longer to do a serious drawing. Would love to do a 10 or 20 hour lifedrawing or portrait.

In our weekly portraiture workshop, we will preferably have the same model for at least 3 weeks, with each session being about 2-1/4 hours of pose. That totals to almost 7 hours, which I find isn't enough usually. Some weeks I'll get one done in one session, or a sketch done in a half-hour if I work in my sketchbook rather than at the easel with larger paper.

Peter D

11-17-2009, 01:42 PM

greywolf-art

11-17-2009, 01:56 PM

for illustration tracing is quite acceptable and widely used, and I have no problem with that :)

I think one of the big differences between illustration and fine art is that with illustration the techniques are irrelevant so long as you meet your deadlines, with fine art the techniques are very important as they are what defines the artform - the artistic journey is just as important as the final product :)

This is why in an earlier post I said that I have no desire to be an illustrator, the process of painting and the spiritual / creative input that I put into my work are too important to me.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against illustration and was actually trained in scientific and technical illustration at college, but having spent 12 years of my life doing professional sculpture I have no desire to return to the commercial art field again, it was too disheartening for me the first time around

greywolf-art

11-17-2009, 02:00 PM

One advantage I had being virtually alone in the life room at college was that I could determine how long the pose was and sometimes I kept the pose for the full 3 days I had the model - now I can't get my wife or kids to sit for 5 mins.

LOL I can't get my wife to pose full stop! I have only one portrait of her and that was taken from a photo without her knowing till it was too late :wink2:

I wish I could have a model to myself for 3 days at a time - that must have been a real luxury :)

LGHumphrey

11-17-2009, 04:02 PM

If, as many people think, Vermeer (and others) traced using a camara oscura, was that cheating?

Oilybloke

11-17-2009, 04:12 PM

I saw one of vermeer's at the national and thought it was :(

Also we do sometimes have to remember that there is a lot of people who would love skill of drawing so tracing and other methods is a way to fulfill that desire with a good end result . (my mrs has had a go at sketching many times and its not good:lol: hope she don't read this) but i know she would prob learn alot from this method and then progress with a better understanding

greywolf-art

11-17-2009, 04:32 PM

good question, one that I've never quite been able to answer myself, canaletto was another one that made heavy use of the camera obscura for his venice paintings, in some ways these devices helped to inform early artists of the workings of perspective ect, which in a way was an essential step in the development of western art, but at the same time yes it was cheating even though it still took a lot of skill to create a painting using any optical device :rolleyes:

Lauren F-M

11-17-2009, 11:39 PM

Not sure Vermeer used a camera obscura or not. While it was in existence, there is not proof that he used one. He certainly didn't need to, as is obvious by the quality of his work. The man could draw and paint as a master.

As to deciding if something is cheating or not -- I think that is rather irrelevant. More important is whether it's apparent that an artist CAN draw, render, paint whatever; IMO the proof of quality and skill is apparent in the finished work.

Netty

11-18-2009, 01:35 AM

I do agree Lauren, the proof is in the finished work!! Different courses for different horses...It is still an artistic ability to come up with a finished product!
I have really enjoyed drawing my husband while he is having a snooze on a lazy Sunday afternoon. At least he is still, and it gives me a good solid amount of time to draw him :).
I am wanting to wake early one morning and sit in my kids room and draw them while they sleep, I think it would make a very special drawing!

Peter D

11-18-2009, 04:40 AM

I do agree Lauren, the proof is in the finished work!! Different courses for different horses.

I profoundly disagree with this statement. How can we on the one hand bemoan the lack of respect realistic artists get and then say it doesn't matter if artists trace an image? Again I come back to what we are selling the client, which is our skill and for the client our ability to get a good likeness is at the top of that list of skills. I am quite sure that no portrait artist who uses tracing or projectors advertises the fact to their clients and that is because they are quite aware of the fact that the client would consider this cheating and demand their money back. If we don't draw the line against the use of tracing and projectors where do we draw it? Should we for example consider it acceptable to paint on top of a giclee and hand it over to the client in good faith? Much of the art sold in the world today is exactly this, mass produced in China and elsewhere - is this art?

greywolf-art

11-18-2009, 04:46 AM

Peter D

11-18-2009, 05:42 AM

Don't they move? Mine look as if they have Huntington's Chorea when they are sleeping.

Lauren F-M

11-18-2009, 05:55 PM

I've done that - I drew my kids while they were having an afternoon nap, it makes for some very special drawings :)

I have sketches I did of my two kids (now ages 21 & 25) when they were babes & sleeping -- about the only time I did draw them from life, much to my regret now. Very sweet to do & then a very nice memory on paper. :thumbsup:

AlisonsArt

11-18-2009, 08:44 PM

Watched the latest episode of Star Portraits today! Absolutely loved Shanon Reynolds work. What was that she was doing with the background when she was wiping the paint off? I don't do oils so I was just wondering. The writing in the background was lovely.

Lauren perhaps this forum should paint the host of Star Portraits when we are through with the Portrait swap. It would be good fun and I agree I think she would be fun to paint.

Alison

Lauren F-M

11-18-2009, 10:05 PM

Lauren perhaps this forum should paint the host of Star Portraits when we are through with the Portrait swap. It would be good fun and I agree I think she would be fun to paint.

Interesting suggestion! :D
However, my only worry would be getting photo references that were copyright-free. I was thinking - if I was to draw or paint her -- I'd just take some photos of her in the Star Portrait videos online, as I've tried it before & it works okay. Lots of choices in all those shows! Plus, I think she has a great wardrobe. :rolleyes:

She has just a few photos on her website: http://www.louisepitre.com -- that can be downloaded for facial details. A beautiful woman! :thumbsup:

I think if any of us do try portraits of her, we should email her to let her know -- after doing that show, she does deserve to be painted. Also, she is a very prolific broadway performer & singer.

Netty

11-19-2009, 03:53 AM

I profoundly disagree with this statement. How can we on the one hand bemoan the lack of respect realistic artists get and then say it doesn't matter if artists trace an image? Again I come back to what we are selling the client, which is our skill and for the client our ability to get a good likeness is at the top of that list of skills. I am quite sure that no portrait artist who uses tracing or projectors advertises the fact to their clients and that is because they are quite aware of the fact that the client would consider this cheating and demand their money back. If we don't draw the line against the use of tracing and projectors where do we draw it? Should we for example consider it acceptable to paint on top of a giclee and hand it over to the client in good faith? Much of the art sold in the world today is exactly this, mass produced in China and elsewhere - is this art?

You have every right to dissagree with my thoughts Peter. I am just making my thoughts known as I have pondered on this more than a few times.
I have always been one for artistic skill and would much prefer to do my own freehand drawing of a portrait, thinking this is the only way really it should be done, however , after doing some reasearch into other artists approaches and watching a few dvd's I have found it interesting to see such a diversity in methods.
There is a very accomplished portrait artist who lives in Adelaide, Australia who has a series of portrait instructional dvd's, he is extremely practical and would probably make the hard core artist squirm at some of his methods.
He gave a demo where he proceeded to trace the facial feature, then he approached the portrait as any professional would and painted a beautiful portrait which showed great skill as he did so. On some of his other dvd's he drew the face freehand and then proceeded to paint. He did this to show different methods.
I know the artistic ability is actually also not just in the drawing but it is so much also in the painting, if someone traced the face then proceeded to paint and they were a crappy artist, it would really show as a crappy painting. Skill is needed to paint over a tracing.

I had a bridal and evening wear bussiness for about 10 years, where I made evening wear. I always made my own patterns as most of the garments were designed by the people ordering them. Many dressmakers buy patterns and use them to make a gown, but the finished product was the same, whether the pattern was made from my hands or I used a bought one.I do not think that the one who used a bought pattern has any less skill than the one who made there own as the skill was in the actual assembly of the dress. Just as skill is needed to paint a portrait.

I don't know why I am rambling on, lol....as I once traced onto canvas and then painted the portrait, but it really did take alot of satisfaction away from me and I wont bother doing it again, as drawing to me is a challenge I love. But in saying that I would never look down on someone or think less of their ability if they did use the tracing method. As I would appreciate the beautiful work they did in painting a portrait. Each to their own .. and I appreciate the fact that you have your oppinions , which are fair and honest to you :)

BTW, when I say tracing I really mean just putting down some landmarks which indicate the possition of the facial features. I don't find art that has been mass produced and painted ontop of giclee prints as artistic ability, and it is really quiet sad. I think a true artist would want to do as much of the painting as possible with their own ability, as this is the satisfaction of being an artist.

Peter D

11-19-2009, 04:35 AM

We are all just expressing a view Netty and none of this should be taken personally by anybody - this is just a discussion on the internet - nothing more. I am glad to hear that you do not trace Netty. I don't consider tracing simply as an alternative 'method' and I think this artist and others who maintain this view are doing realistic art a great disservice for the reasons I gave above. Of course drawing is not the only skill in portrait painting and it is perfectly possible for an artist to be inadequate in drawing but sublime in painting flesh tones etc but I do not think this person should be working professionally as a commissioned artist UNLESS it is clearly stated in his publicity that he traces the drawing. Well-known writers particularly later in their careers sometimes hand over plots to other writers to fill out into novels and in this case both writers names appear on the book if they are ethical but imagine if the second name did not appear and the writer passed off the novel as entirely his work. If discovered we would not say hey we know he can write so it doesn't matter if he didn't write this one - we would call him a cheat and justly so in my view.

The bottom line is that realistic painting is making a painful comeback and is still looked down upon in many artistic circles and this is particularly the case with portrait painting. The one selling factor realistic art has is the skill required to do it well and the years of practice and training necessary to gain this skill. Tracing and projectors undermine this at the most fundamental level and passing off cheating euphemistically as an 'alternative' method does not change this fact. I say again Netty that I am glad you do not use tracing. What people do in illustration or even in portrait painting purely as a hobby is for them to decide but once you step over into professional portraiture we all have an obligation to our client to provide the services they believe they are buying and this as well as all the artistic reasons must make tracing a big no no. Now I will come off the soap box and do some painting.

greywolf-art

11-19-2009, 05:45 AM

this is getting to be quite the debate now LOL. It does still take some skill to paint from a tracing, but you do lose some degree of flexibility and artistic control by doing so.

I personally tend to shy away from tracing not so much because I see it as cheating but because I lose something by doing it, when I make a drawing I am looking for underlying patterns and spatial relationships in my subject, I love the patterns that exist in nature and by tracing I lose the opportunity to investigate that aspect of my paintings :(

I run portraiture workshops now and then (I have one at the end of next week) and I always teach my students how to create a drawing by looking at the underlying geometry and building their portrait up from there, I believe that as well as making portrait drawing easier it also gives them the ability to 'see' beyond the physical surface appearance of the model :)

having said that one part of the course does make use of pre-drawn outlines that have all the basic details lightly drawn in place - the simple reason being that it saves time if the students are not having to create the drawing completely from scratch, this part of the workshop is concentrating on how to use structural shading to define 3-dimensional form so having a pre-drawn outline allows my students to concentrate on the shading alone without the distraction of worrying if the proportions are right.

The final portrait produced on the second day However must be drawn entirely by hand with no tracing ect involved, the great thing is that they all manage to do it and surprise themselves that they can do it too! its fantastic to see the realisation that they really can draw portraits without 'cheating' and that in turn gives them more confidence to develop further (one woman who is coming to my next workshop attended the last one and is coming back to see how much further I can take her - she was a total beginner to art and had only been experimenting for a few months yet managed a good portrait of her only grand-daughter)

Perhaps the way to combat the tracing projectors ect. isn't to criticise the people who use them but to educate them in how to draw for themselves and the benefits of doing so (preferably without preaching to them as that is an instant way to make them entrenched in their self defense and less likely to change)

Netty

11-19-2009, 06:00 AM

Some great points Peter and Greywolf, I have not been on my soap box for yonks, :) I think I will put it in the cupboard and get on with the painting too, lol.....
It is good to share though, and discuss things .

Have a great day painting you two, it is just ending for me and I am going to enjoy a good nights sleep after a hard days work!!

Oilybloke

11-19-2009, 06:37 AM

Perhaps a few more WIP,s in this forum would give people a better understanding how they put together there portraits . Not to see wether they cheat or not but just to understand the stages each artist goes through , just an idea:D it would teach people an awful lot

Peter D

11-19-2009, 07:36 AM

You already do it Leigh and it is always interesting. Good idea for others including myself to do the same from the very first stages. Not to see if someone cheats as you say but to see the thought processes and steps people go through.

greywolf-art

11-19-2009, 10:06 AM

yeah I know I should post some WIP's but I get so involved in my work I forget to take photo's as I go along :o

it was the same at my last workshop - I got so involved I forgot to take photo's of the students work :eek:

Lauren F-M

11-19-2009, 04:18 PM

Relating to some of the discussion so far, here are some sketches out of a sketchbook from the 1980's & 90's -- it spans so long a period because I really slowed down with my sketching when I was raising my kids... :rolleyes:

So, this first one is from a popular old bar in town; some of "the boys" (I don't know these guys) drinking beer at the Lafayetter, affectionately known as the Laff. As I forgot my sketchbook, I drew on the back of some paper I got somewhere; you can see the writing on the other side. In graphite:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Nov-2009/20772-Laff86.jpg

From 1990, here is one of a friend who was playing the harp at a weekly Celtic jam at a local coffeehouse. I used to draw there every week, and have lots of drawings of musicians.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Nov-2009/20772-JoM.jpg

As per the discussion of drawing our sleeping children, here are some drawings I did of my daughter as a baby. The first is when she was just home from the hospital.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Nov-2009/20772-Skye1.jpg
Here are a few more of her:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Nov-2009/20772-Skye2.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Nov-2009/20772-Skye3.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Nov-2009/20772-Skye4.jpg

As I might have mentioned, our sketchbooks of drawings from various goings-on in our lives provide a nice album of memories later on. :thumbsup:

greywolf-art

11-19-2009, 05:59 PM

some fantastic drawings there lauren, you are much better at sketching from life than I am :clap:

I've just got back from life drawing class, and had a ball, the first half I did my usual sketches in lump sanguine, but the second 50 minute pose I got the paintbrushes out and did some speed painting - what a blast, for those of you who prefer painting to drawing I can thoroughly recommend using paints instead. knowing that you have only 50 minutes to complete your painting forces you to try and make every mark count :)

joolee

11-20-2009, 05:30 AM

With regard to the debate about tracing, I am surprised no-one has spoken up in favour (see a previous discussion thread at http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209891&highlight=tracing), but I guess it is hard to plead your case when the judge has already delivered a verdict. However, I simply can’t let this pass without saying something. I really don’t want to be falling out with anyone or causing any bad feeling, so please see this post as being liberally sprinkled with smiley faces :) :) :) .

Although I will always respect everyone's right to offer an opinion, I do believe that the strength of feeling and the emotive language (i.e. cheating) used in some of the postings on here may well have made some people feel unwelcome on this forum :( . It has certainly made me feel that way, perhaps because it comes from some of the artists I most admire on here. Anything that anyone says in defence of aids is likely to come across as being ...well... defensive. So, rather like a newcomer at Tracers Anonymous I'm stepping forward to say "I am a tracer"! It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has been on this forum for a while, as I have never made any secret of it.

Do I think it gives me an advantage? Of course, otherwise I wouldn't do it.

Does that advantage reflect in the finished product? No, at least not in my opinion. The advantage to me is precious time. I have little time to give to my painting, so I would prefer to spend it doing something I love - which is the painting bit. If you think that tracing is a bit like painting by numbers, take a look at my Piggy Back WIP - http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561633. I traced a basic image but you can see how I agonized over the placing of the features on both faces and moved them about several times. It’s a starting point - that's all.

In any event, a work of art is much more than merely placing features where they should be. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine commissioned a pencil portrait of each of her two children through the school. When I first saw them, I knew immediately that they had not been drawn by hand but had been computer generated. How did I know? because someone who had the artistic skills to produce work of that quality finish would have known what not to include from the photo and what to amend. There were a couple of bits in each one which were really jarring to me. Talking to another mum later, she confirmed that the portraits from this company were produced by computer.

Peter, I greatly admire your work and your ability to paint in public as you do. I am sure your clients expect you to be painting without such aids - they see you painting in the market. But that really doesn't give you the evidence you need to be so decisive about what all clients want. Firstly, using projectors, tracing, grids etc does not mean that a painting is not produced by hand. Secondly, I would imagine that most clients put accuracy (or more probably flattery) at the top of their list, together with cost. And it is the cost bit which probably influences many portrait artists to use aids. Time = money. Of course, I'm not talking about those who paint from life - but they tend to charge a small fortune. Does it mean they don't have the skills to produce the initial sketch without aids? I would base my answer to that on the finished product. You simply can't produce a high quality finished product if you can't draw. Which brings me to Vermeer. He was a true master painter and his paintings are in the world's most prestigious galleries. I doubt he is turning in his grave wishing he hadn't "cheated" by using the aids which were available to him!

Can I draw? Well at the risk of falling foul of Kevin's list of folks who think they can draw but can't, I can produce a fairly accurate drawing from a photo and my life drawing isn't bad either. There is real scope for improvement and I am working on that by attending life class. I can certainly produce a drawing as accurate as any of my tracings - it would just take me longer and therefore give me less time to do what I enjoy most.

Am I likely to continue to trace? For the time being, yes. I am too busy enjoying experimenting with colour and painting techniques. Later - who knows? I have been painting in earnest for justover a year and I am putting one foot in front of the other and seeing where it leads me. I would love to be able to paint like Harley Brown – a few apparently random scribbles on the paper and then working from the features outwards – but I don’t have the skills (at least not yet :D )

I'm going to leave the last word to Harley - a quote on drawing aids from his book "Inspiration for Every Artist" (p16). "Overuse of preliminary drawing aids such as tracing and projection can be spotted when the painting lacks confidence. Artists have done this in one form or another for ages. I wouldn't chastise the artist for drawing aids and will only insist that periodic drawing from life will bring in the necessary confidence and spirit".

I admit that reading through these postings knocked my confidence for a couple of days – but I feel much better now! I hope that is reflected in my paintings :smug:

Jools

PS I am happy to share a WIP

joolee

11-20-2009, 05:42 AM

Lauren, your sketches are absolutely fantastic. You are very accomplished.

At my life drawing class yesterday, my tutor was encouraging me to do this. I have sketched family members at home, but I would be uncomfortable sketching strangers in public - just as I have yet been unable to pluck up the courage to ask strangers if I could take their photo. I'll have to give it a try.

LOL Graham, at my class yesterday, I ditched the pastels to see what I could achieve with just a pencil. I just about killed me not to put any colour in and in the long sketch, I simply had to use some sanguine. My tutor had to smile at this and commented on how out of my comfort zone I am without colour.

Jools

Oilybloke

11-20-2009, 05:48 AM

Jools , the intention of this discussion is not to make you feel bad its an opinion of a few people on a subject that is as old as time , sometimes i feel that on this site it is very commission based which i don't care for much i feel its about art and your paintings , perhaps people who have read this thread may feel down hearted but you yourself know being a good artist with fine results is what matters , hope this goes some way to defend your opinion

PS , would love to see some WIP'S

Netty

11-20-2009, 05:49 AM

I admire your honesty Jools and thankyou for your post.I do agree, It is so much more than just tracing, it takes such skill and artistic talent to turn a tracing into a portrait!

I am glad you are feeling better and your confidence has been restored, You have loads of talent still waiting to burst out !!! I have really enjoyed watching your progression Jools, and also excitted for you :)

Now I don't think I will say any more on the matter, it has been debated so much over the past . We are all artists , and if we all enjoy what we do!!! thats what matters.

Netty

11-20-2009, 06:04 AM

:D ignore this :o

greywolf-art

11-20-2009, 06:42 AM

I'm sorry to hear that you were disilusioned Joolee, this is why I was arguing against people taking such hardline stances about the importance of drawing skills and tracing, its a shame that some people can't seem to live and let live and realise that there really are many approaches to art! (and I can't do a life drawing without sanguine either LOL, I just don't like drawing in black and white - I find all those shades of grey depressing, but I do appreciate black and white drawings by others though)

I agree with Leigh that there is perhaps too much emphasis on commissions, I only do the odd commission to support my own work which is about me expressing myself, when I paint for myself its about exploring concepts of spatial harmony and the interconnectedness of all things, when I'm painting a portrait to commission its about painting an accurate but flattering reproduction of the sitter that hopefully captures the spirit as well as the likeness of the sitter :)

I do understand of course where PeterD is coming from with regards to the struggle for acceptance of realist art, but if we get too wrapped up in dictating the technicalities of how realist painters should work we open ourselves up to accusations of being too clinical about our art - which would do us as realist painters no favours at all!

If you are not going to paint with your heart then you might as well be using one of those computer programs that joolee referred to, because at the end of the day it doesn't matter how realistic or impressionistic your work is, if it doesn't have a soul then its not real art, and might as well be just a photograph.

Lauren F-M

11-20-2009, 08:27 AM

Thanks for the lively discussion, all! :D

We do our art for the love of it; also for many, we must do it & are much easier to live with when we are doing our art regularly.

After completing artschool about 30 years ago (not that I was 'complete' as an artist), I really slowed down, then didn't do it regularly when I was raising my 2 kids. Since jumping back in on a more regular basis about 3 years ago, I've been realizing how much I need to learn -- it's endless! :eek:

So, no matter how we do our work, I think it's best to keep raising the bar, challenging ourselves & working to improve our skills; also improving how we see. I find the more I learn, the more of a critical eye I get.

Anyway, I need to get ready to go to my non-art-related job.... :rolleyes:

Peter D

11-20-2009, 08:47 AM

I do understand of course where PeterD is coming from with regards to the struggle for acceptance of realist art, but if we get too wrapped up in dictating the technicalities of how realist painters should work we open ourselves up to accusations of being too clinical about our art - which would do us as realist painters no favours at all!
They may be technical skills we are talking about that they are not 'technicalities' Graham.

I have said several times that my remarks concern commissioned portraiture and for sale figure painting. The word cheating may be harsh but I know other work that fits when a portrait or figure artist allows the presumption on the part of clients that the work is that of the artist when in part it is not. Julie may well be right that for some clients the end result is all that matters and it is unimportant if the artist traced the image and my only gripe then concerns what the client is allowed to believe. If for example an artist says clearly in the blurb that the imaged is first traced from a photo and then handpainted I have no ethical argument although the artistic argument remains. The question though is do artists who trace say clearly up front to clients that this is the case?

The other thing I want to question is Netty's point that there is no right and wrong in this. I know relativism is popular and politically correct but it is not always true that there is no right and wrong. I would argue that for the good of realist painting tracing should be considered a no no since it diminishes drawing to an option and in so doing attacks the fundamental skill base that we are surely trying to give rebirth to. Despite spending two years at art school I am essentially self-taught as I received little or no technical training - this has been the experience of many if not most students in mainstream art education for the last 40 years and how on earth can anyone argue for changing this if tracing is considered acceptable? Why on earth should people spend the hours necessary to hone drawing skills if a piece of tracing paper can do the job for you painlessly? I have seen no answers to these fundamental questions other than pleas of personal convenience.

The bottom line is that if you have the drawing skills drawing freehand takes no more time than tracing and if it takes longer with uncertain results then you need to improve your drawing skills but your work should be your work at whatever standard you are currently at. Be all you can be and not what tracing paper makes you.

Hard line this may all be but it is said in the most friendly of ways - you can tell because here is a smiley :)

greywolf-art

11-20-2009, 10:20 AM

and my friendly reply to that is that if I really though art was that black & white I'd quit and go back to my old job as an engineer LOL

BTW when I said technicalities I sort of meant technical skills, now where are my pastels, I have some new pastelmat to play with :)

joolee

11-20-2009, 11:21 AM

kevinwueste

11-20-2009, 12:31 PM

Joolee - I hear you absolutely that there can be a risk of scaring folks off from the forum with strong language and I do want ( humbly) this to be an inclusive place - not a place that locks doors. And no, was not quoting you, but that person IS a tracer/projector (it's mostly one person who says their drawing is great, so why NOT trace ?.. and then to see the work, well can I just say the irony is POWERFUL ?!).

Me - I have no problem with using tracing as a learning aid. One of my idols, Norman Rockwell used the infamous Balopticon to project images to help him sort out his work ( though he could draw or painting anything freehand before that tool was ever available so.. where was I.. oh - drawing aids - certainly the use of whatever aid is up to the individual. For me personally, tracing is impossible as I draw and paint from life most of the time (so it's not even an option... ) When I am left to do studies from photos, part of the fun for me is to get the shapes right, which helps me continue to develop working from life ( getting shapes as right as I can). I have been "accused" of projecting or copying head studies here and in the drawing/sketching forum a while back and I laughed and was proud that someone thought that much of the work .. but that I was "accused" says something about mentalities of forum folks out there as well.. ( oh, they were all free-hand).

I can only say for me, that drawing and painting are a struggle that I ( weirdly ?) enjoy pushing through and working from life gives me such joy (even when the work is crap) that I can't imagine doing anything else.. I hope my passion on these forums aligns that way, and not in an exclusionary way. I do think when a perfect work is presented it is fair that, if asked, the artist will share his/her technique ( which may or may not include projecting, tracing, grids, thumb-in-the-air.. whatnot.. I willadmit that I am ( whether he wants an ally in this "battle" or not) with Peter D here - and do believe that clients want great work and want to know that the artist sorted it out.. I would love to know what clients think if the artist said, "would you mind if I traced your photo to make the portrait ?" I guess I would just decide to be Andy Warhol ( tracer extra-semi-ordinaire!) or a photographer.. or a hyper-photo-realist ( most do trace and I do believe there is skill involved for sure..).. ok I am now battling myself I think and must stop..

so all that said, there are ( as I have blathered many times) - so many ways to skin a cat and I remain open minded to the fine quality skinned cats people produce in whatever method suits.. :thumbsup: Maybe those non-tracer types are bitter that we have to sort it out w/o doing that ? I have no idea.. I'll talk to my shrink and get the lowdown !:wink2:

With regard to the debate about tracing, I am surprised no-one has spoken up in favour (see a previous discussion thread at http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209891&highlight=tracing) (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209891&highlight=tracing%29), but I guess it is hard to plead your case when the judge has already delivered a verdict. However, I simply can’t let this pass without saying something. I really don’t want to be falling out with anyone or causing any bad feeling, so please see this post as being liberally sprinkled with smiley faces :) :) :) .

Although I will always respect everyone's right to offer an opinion, I do believe that the strength of feeling and the emotive language (i.e. cheating) used in some of the postings on here may well have made some people feel unwelcome on this forum :( . It has certainly made me feel that way, perhaps because it comes from some of the artists I most admire on here. Anything that anyone says in defence of aids is likely to come across as being ...well... defensive. So, rather like a newcomer at Tracers Anonymous I'm stepping forward to say "I am a tracer"! It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has been on this forum for a while, as I have never made any secret of it.

Do I think it gives me an advantage? Of course, otherwise I wouldn't do it.

Does that advantage reflect in the finished product? No, at least not in my opinion. The advantage to me is precious time. I have little time to give to my painting, so I would prefer to spend it doing something I love - which is the painting bit. If you think that tracing is a bit like painting by numbers, take a look at my Piggy Back WIP - http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561633. I traced a basic image but you can see how I agonized over the placing of the features on both faces and moved them about several times. It’s a starting point - that's all.

Secondly, I would imagine that most clients put accuracy (or more probably flattery) at the top of their list, together with cost. And it is the cost bit which probably influences many portrait artists to use aids. Time = money. Of course, I'm not talking about those who paint from life - but they tend to charge a small fortune. Does it mean they don't have the skills to produce the initial sketch without aids? I would base my answer to that on the finished product. You simply can't produce a high quality finished product if you can't draw. Which brings me to Vermeer. He was a true master painter and his paintings are in the world's most prestigious galleries. I doubt he is turning in his grave wishing he hadn't "cheated" by using the aids which were available to him!

Can I draw? Well at the risk of falling foul of Kevin's list of folks who think they can draw but can't, I can produce a fairly accurate drawing from a photo and my life drawing isn't bad either. There is real scope for improvement and I am working on that by attending life class. I can certainly produce a drawing as accurate as any of my tracings - it would just take me longer and therefore give me less time to do what I enjoy most.

Am I likely to continue to trace? For the time being, yes. I am too busy enjoying experimenting with colour and painting techniques. Later - who knows? I have been painting in earnest for justover a year and I am putting one foot in front of the other and seeing where it leads me. I would love to be able to paint like Harley Brown – a few apparently random scribbles on the paper and then working from the features outwards – but I don’t have the skills (at least not yet :D )

I'm going to leave the last word to Harley - a quote on drawing aids from his book "Inspiration for Every Artist" (p16). "Overuse of preliminary drawing aids such as tracing and projection can be spotted when the painting lacks confidence. Artists have done this in one form or another for ages. I wouldn't chastise the artist for drawing aids and will only insist that periodic drawing from life will bring in the necessary confidence and spirit".

I admit that reading through these postings knocked my confidence for a couple of days – but I feel much better now! I hope that is reflected in my paintings :smug:

Jools

PS I am happy to share a WIP

Lauren F-M

11-20-2009, 02:15 PM

Oh, Kevin, you could be a diplomat! :thumbsup: :D

.... if we want to get deeper into it, we could get the pros and cons of working from photos vs. drawing from life.... :evil:

However, I think we each work with how our lives are, what time and space are available, where we are in our experience, hobby or career. So many variables, and I think many of us have different goals. That is what the art world is like -- a lot of people finding artistic expression in various ways.

Here, on this forum what we do have in common as artists is working in a realist manner (rather than abstract or conceptual), and focussing on the human portrait. From that commonality, we fan out to our various individualistic approaches and personal goals. Vive la difference!

Let's share, discuss & grow as artists, in whatever way we each choose. WC is a wonderful place to do that. :thumbsup:

greywolf-art

11-20-2009, 02:34 PM

I was talking to trace the other day and she said she enjoyed being drawn (she also liked being projected on but that's another story)

Anyway, how do you folks feel about the question of whether portraiture needs to concentrate on the soul as well as the appearance of the sitter, and do you try to put something 'more' into your paintings?

Peter D

11-20-2009, 02:36 PM

Yes, I agree Graham. And I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, Peter. Everything in my life so far has taught me to live in the real world, rather than an idealized one. You are far too much of a romantic if you truly believe that no-one at the top of the tree of realism uses drawing aids. What you call convenience, I call pragmatism. What you call right and wrong is not the rule of law, nor even a rule of basic morality, it is merely your opinion on how things should be. That being the case, it is my opinion that every artist has the right to develop their artistic skills in the way he/she thinks fit.
Jools
Of course we shall agree to disagree and continue to be friends and all that - hell my wife traces and doesn't tell her clients and I don't exactly throw her out of bed for doing so but I retain my opinion. In fact although I had heard about Vermeer and Reynolds and others using aids I thought the portrait world 'pure' until someone brought it up on another forum and I did the proverbial gasp of shock and disappointment.

Oilybloke

11-20-2009, 03:03 PM

Sorry Graham well over my head that one ,

just a quickie question , i get 8hrs a day to paint so on average what sort of time does everybody get a week to paint:D

MSegev

11-20-2009, 03:09 PM

Peter, lol, thanks for introducing the term “political correctness” - it seems so fitting in this context.

I think inevitably this discussion has unveiled a discord between two different mindsets: one more pseudo-painterly, on the amateur side that says “I paint because it's fun!” or “I paint because it's a great stress reliever!” or similar, the other is more skill-oriented and/or professional for whom painting is a need, an obsession, a higher calling to follow - or work, the kind that one is passionate about in the same way a composer or a pianist would be. Artists in the first category are usually quite happy with the fruit of their labor if they come up with something “nice”, while in the second the artists will seek to meet higher standards or reach new heights. It's absolutely pointless to argue whose art is more or less meaningful – each to his/her own. WetCanvas must be doing something right if artists of all abilities and levels of artistic engagement share the same forums in peace (since obviously there are quite a few egos to kowtow to and insecurities to calm) We each know what we are after by coming here, don't we? I certainly do and appreciate everything I have learned. If there's something I truly loathe, no offense to anybody, it's when a thread starts to look like a peanut gallery or a mutual-admiration-club for equally incompetent. What's up with that? Isn't an artists' forum a place where the artists can share experience and help each other, rather than a venue to “impress the neighbor”. Why the heck would we go through all the trouble of photographing our works in progress, posting the images, following the comments, etc., if not to get better, learn something new, make the most of this wonderful community called WC!

I, for one, freely admit that my drawing is not good enough and often wonder why it is so hard for others to admit the same, even when that fact is obvious. For those who still don't get what “good enough” means - by golly, there are so many fine artists to look up to, those who get all their angles, perspective, forms and values quickly and accurately.

Peter, by looking at your work I can safely say that your drawing is very good, and your point regarding “right and wrong” is spot on. There is indeed “right” and there is indeed “wrong”, and that distinction is often critical in portraits. Human face shouldn't look flat, the forms shouldn't look like they were cut out of a journal and glued onto a canvas, there shouldn't be any hard outlines around the images we paint, because none of it is present in nature, the terms value, hue, chroma, color temperature, edges, etc., are not some fancy buzz words devoid of meaning. There's plenty to learn for everybody.
A thought has just crossed my mind - Modigliani and Van Gogh, with all respect that I have for them, would probably continue starving as portrait artists in our time.

As for tracing, got me wondering – if it's supposed to save time, how come the drawing needs fixing several times afterwards? Wouldn't it make more sense to work on the drawing skill instead? The beautiful part about “skill” is that once you have it, you'll always own it, regardless of one tool or another.

Netty

11-20-2009, 03:22 PM

Graham, this is an important aspect of doing portraiture. Finding the essence or spiritual side of the person and really trying to include this in the painting is very much considered when I paint. I really study each person and try to discern what type of personality they have, of course it is easier if you know them! I find eyes so very important, as eyes open up the window of the soul, and reveal lots about a person.
When I painted Ted, the 91 yr old war vet, I spent a few hours chatting with him as he sat for me. This gave more insight to how I would like to portray him on canvas.
What about you Graham?

Leigh, you are blessed to have 8 hrs a day to paint...
I work 3 days a week,9-5 no time to paint :(
On my 4 days off I teach from home one day, no time to paint :(
but the other three, when I finally finish the washing, and cleaning and spend time with my two kids, 6 and 10, there is time to paint, lol if I am not too tired!! Usually Mondays are my days so I become selfish and chain myself to my easel with the phone off the hook, and really enjoy!!!! :)

Lauren, I meant to mention earlier,
your sketches are delightful, I really love your sleeping babies, it must have been a beautiful experience drawing them as they sleep!! Thankyou for posting them :)

Oilybloke

11-20-2009, 03:26 PM

God Annie , you shouldnt be on here now , go and get some sleep , i work nights at home so the kids are at school all day so got nothing better to do

Netty

11-20-2009, 04:02 PM

Leigh, it is 8 am in the morning, saturday, next step! get the kids ready for the day, they are going to their grans for a visit, then come home and do housework
:( no time to sleep
lol.....

Oilybloke

11-20-2009, 04:04 PM

Sorry not good with time , hope you all have a nice day :D

greywolf-art

11-20-2009, 04:30 PM

I think inevitably this discussion has unveiled a discord between two different mindsets: one more pseudo-painterly, on the amateur side that says “I paint because it's fun!” or “I paint because it's a great stress reliever!” or similar, the other is more skill-oriented and/or professional for whom painting is a need, an obsession, a higher calling to follow - or work, the kind that one is passionate about in the same way a composer or a pianist would be. Artists in the first category are usually quite happy with the fruit of their labor if they come up with something “nice”, while in the second the artists will seek to meet higher standards or reach new heights.
I'm sorry but I find that quite insulting, I may have returned to art as a means to recover from severe clinical stress, and yes I do think art should be enjoyable, but I am by no means some 'pseudo painterly' amateur, the mere suggestion that those of us who take a more relaxed view about art are nothing more than amateurs is quite derogatory and very misguided.

Although I took a break from art and became an engineer to support my family, I used to be a very successful professional artist with a reputation for skill and accuracy, but in the end I became fed up with working 16 hours a day 7 days a week to keep up with deadlines and having an unreliable income so I gave it up for the sake of my family.

Of course being an artist is not something you can ignore and in the end it was partially through being an artist stuck in an engineers job that made me ill with stress, returning to a full time life as an artist has been the single biggest thing to happen to me and has been a huge factor in restoring my self confidence and self esteem!

I don't trace, I don't project, and I'm very particular about getting details right - those who know me would even say I'm obsessively perfectionist, I'm never happy with anything I do, and every painting is a new challenge to inspire me to greater things - I'm certainly not happy to produce something that is just 'Nice'.

I don't however consider myself to be on a higher calling than my fellow artists or even better than them, and I don't expect other artists to do as I say and work as I work - and thats not political correctness, its simply a desire to encourage all artists of all abilities and all leanings, because you never know what heights they may one day achieve if they are encouraged to do better, not simply told to do better!

P.S. I was actually trying to steer this conversation away from the tracing / cheating debate as its getting quite pointless now, but I felt I had to reply to these comments

greywolf-art

11-20-2009, 04:47 PM

Graham, this is an important aspect of doing portraiture. Finding the essence or spiritual side of the person and really trying to include this in the painting is very much considered when I paint. I really study each person and try to discern what type of personality they have, of course it is easier if you know them! I find eyes so very important, as eyes open up the window of the soul, and reveal lots about a person.
When I painted Ted, the 91 yr old war vet, I spent a few hours chatting with him as he sat for me. This gave more insight to how I would like to portray him on canvas.
What about you Graham?

Yes I prefer to get to know the person I'm painting - though of course thats not always possible, I'm just finishing off a wedding portrait of a couple I've never even met, and TBH I think it probably shows because even though its a good likeness and well painted it just doesn't have that spark of life that takes a portrait above the average, in these situations I guess all you can do is to try your best to be sensitive to the subject and attempt to glean whatever life you can from the photo :angel:

I do tend to draw a line between my commissioned work and my personal work, and though I try to do my best for a portrait commission, they are mostly a way to finance my personal work which is an ongoing exploration of the spiritual side of figurative art (by spiritual I don't mean in a religious sense but a more wider interpretation of the word)

And yes the eyes are the window to the soul, so much can be expressed just by a single look and its the mark of a great portrait artist to be able to capture that look :)

Oilybloke

11-20-2009, 04:56 PM

i too would just like to comment on the above regarding NICE work , i feel the discussion just isnt worth it and will only look and learn from now on from people of a higher level whoever that might be !!!!

greywolf-art

11-20-2009, 05:03 PM

Oilybloke

11-20-2009, 05:17 PM

:lol: , I like to think i'm a fairly normal family bloke who likes to paint a bit and stick it on a website for something to do , but its only a painting to look at and discuss not the meaning of life , and im sure someone will tell me different in a professional way with all the arty claptrap that comes with it

Netty

11-20-2009, 05:23 PM

You have a great day too Leigh!!! :D
Or night, I am not sure how many hours the UK is behind Australia, but I guess it is Friday night there.
Yippie, let me at the housework!!! :lol:

joolee

11-20-2009, 05:53 PM

Oh blimey Mary!! If my paintings are "nice", I'm going downstairs now and throwing the lot in the bin. I am most definitely an amateur but that doesn't mean I'm happy to produce what I am producing now. I want to improve on what I am producing now. The reason it is worth it to me to get going and then adjust later is because I see in colour and shapes, not in lines. I can see what needs to be adjusted more easily in shapes than I can see in lines. Why do I need to work in a way that isn't right for me just because it is right for others?

Leigh, I don't really get long blocks of time to paint. If I can get more than a couple of hours in one go, that's great. Sometimes my workload is greater than others -so, for instance, I have a pile of mock exam papers coming my way next week and another pile the week after - not much painting time then. I find sometimes that my days are just "bitty" - not sure if that's the lot of womankind (or at least mothers) or whether I'm just not structuring my day properly. Sometimes, its just a case of painting whilst I'm cooking.

Have you ever wondered why so very few famous artists are women??

Jools

Oilybloke

11-20-2009, 06:12 PM

It 11.03pm and i have just finished work , even though i work from home :D thankyou annie i will try and enjoy my day

Jools , the only reason i have so much time at the moment to paint is down to my working arrangments as my company moved me to nights for nine months so very soon i wont be painting at all it was just to fill my extreme boredom , WC has been very good and brought me on leap and bounds but hey its been fun , you should find more time if you can but i know with daily life and the school runs (housework , not good at that) its hard to focus half hour at a time , keep posting your paintings as they are more than nice:lol:

greywolf-art

11-20-2009, 06:13 PM

I see in colour and shapes, not in lines. I can see what needs to be adjusted more easily in shapes than I can see in lines. Why do I need to work in a way that isn't right for me just because it is right for others?

Jools

And having looked at your website I'd say that is working well for you :) I must admit I tend to see more in light and colour than in lines, the lines are merely a guide to where to start putting the colour - its a difference in perception not in quality

thats why I enjoyed painting at the life class, because it freed me from the lines and allowed me to look at the light and colour instead - very liberating :)

Netty

11-20-2009, 09:26 PM

Can someone please tell me who is the Supreme King of art that makes the decision as to what is right and what is wrong? :confused:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Lauren F-M

11-21-2009, 12:03 AM

Annie -- Funny about the Supreme art god -- perhaps she's a goddess! :lol:
Anyway, we each find our own muses & ways to interpret them, I think... :D

Interesting how the discussion has moved on to how we approach our work: colour / shapes / line / etc.....

I find I've used different approaches over the years; not so much consciously, but more like I just notice a change in approach (I'm talking about life drawing in this case) -- from a heavier touch, to a lighter touch, to line work, to what I call "volume drawing" -- which is more sculptural in approach; perhaps influenced by when I was doing a lot of head portrait studies in clay.

Whatever helps us to see better and then interpret what we are seeing; I think it will help us to grow as artists.

Leigh & Jools mention that it can be hard at times to find the time to do their artwork. If you can try to get a bit of time as regularly as possible to do even one little drawing, that will help you keep up the momentum. Hard to get going again after a long period not doing art, I find. I know I don't draw every day, and I should. There always seems to be something else that needs doing or fetching. We do what we can.

Too many things discussed on here for me to catch up on it all -- sorry for what I've missed. It's late now & my mind is getting mushy... :rolleyes:

joolee

11-21-2009, 06:15 AM

Sorry, I saw Mary's post just before I went to bed last night and was so fixated on the work "nice" that I completely forgot to comment on previous posts. Can I simply say thank you to Annie, Leigh, Kevin, Graham & Lauren for being so supportive. I'm sure Mary didn't intend to offend anyone.

Also, to Peter - yes, of course I hope we are still friends. Actually, I have slept on all this and you might be quite surprised to hear that I am taking it all on board. I do really want to improve and, whilst it might be frustrating not to have the time that I would like to spend on it, perhaps I should spend a little more time on the drawing aspect. I'll ponder it a little more!

Leigh, I had more time back in September. Then I went through a very busy patch in October and I don't seem to have been able to get back into it. I do the life class on a Thursday afternoon and I have just found out about a life portrait group on a Monday morning. If I am out of the house, the rest of it will just have to wait!!

In the meantime, my feathers have been sufficiently ruffled to feel I need to offer my drawings up for scrutiny. I have now had 5 life class drawings (plus a portrait life class) and here are a selection of my drawings (I have used auto correct just to brighten them up so you can see better). Honest opinions only please (and no-one dare say "nice" - sorry Mary, I couldn't resist!).

This is the best one from my first class - 30 mins

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/169452-Life_class_1_005.jpg

Second class

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/169452-Life_class_2_003.jpg

I haven't written on this one how long it took, but it was quite a short one because I recall being pleased that I had managed to tackle the foreshortening aspect in the time given.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/169452-Life_class_2_002.jpg

Third class

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/169452-Life_class_3_002.jpg

This was quite a long pose - perhaps an hour. I concentrated far too long on the negative spaces. My tutor said she thought I would be disappointed in what I had achieved. Not really - I was experimenting to see what I could achieve with colour in a short space of time. But lots of room for improvement though!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/169452-Life_class_3_003.jpg

This week's class (no 5)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/169452-Life_class_5_001.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/169452-Life_class_5_003.jpg

This one was an hour long. I decided to do it in pencil - but even my tutor commented that I was out of my comfort zone!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/169452-Life_class_5_006.jpg

Jools

MSegev

11-21-2009, 06:35 AM

MSegev

11-21-2009, 06:38 AM

Wow, great drawings! Now we're talking!

Peter D

11-21-2009, 06:47 AM

Also, to Peter - yes, of course I hope we are still friends. Actually, I have slept on all this and you might be quite surprised to hear that I am taking it all on board. I do really want to improve and, whilst it might be frustrating not to have the time that I would like to spend on it, perhaps I should spend a little more time on the drawing aspect. I'll ponder it a little more!

I agree with Mary that these are great drawings Jools so what on earth are you doing tracing??? It is certainly not a problem of ability and remember that the initial drawing needs to plot positions of features and basic shapes and nothing more - this can be done at least as quickly as tracing and probably more quickly. I take about 20 mins to do this with a head and shoulders.

This discussion is all about encouraging people to be all they can be and also for professionals to be all your clients expect you to be. I know you are making the transition to professional Jools so go for it with all guns blazing and your progress will be all the quicker.

greywolf-art

11-21-2009, 07:22 AM

Like I said - each to his/her own.

I thought we had agreed that none of our comments would be taken personally, unless they follow a specific name. The nature of opinions is that everyone has them.

I really don't think that any of us should apologize for our opinions or the path we have chosen for ourselves as artists. I explained my perspective and point of view, feel free to disagree, reject or ignore my posts all together.

Greywolf and Jools, whatever works for you, is fine. The important things is to remember that different things work for different people.

From my perspective, the only one I'm required to please is me. Or in the case of a commission - my clients.

I know your comments weren't specifically aimed at me, but I was still annoyed because they were aimed at people who paint to relive stress or to have fun, with the suggestion that this implies that they are just amateurs making 'nice' paintings.

Amongst other things I paint both for fun and to relieve stress, so your comments included me and I am by no means an amateur, in fact our working methods are probably closer than you think, I just don't want to bully others into working as I do

If you are going to make sweeping inflamatory statements then you are inevitably going to upset people, however I have no intention of 'falling out' with anyone on here - even the closest of friends have the occasional fight, its just one of those things!

greywolf-art

11-21-2009, 07:30 AM

I agree with Mary that these are great drawings Jools so what on earth are you doing tracing??? It is certainly not a problem of ability and remember that the initial drawing needs to plot positions of features and basic shapes and nothing more - this can be done at least as quickly as tracing and probably more quickly. I take about 20 mins to do this with a head and shoulders.

This discussion is all about encouraging people to be all they can be and also for professionals to be all your clients expect you to be. I know you are making the transition to professional Jools so go for it with all guns blazing and your progress will be all the quicker.

I have to admit that if anything I find tracing to be slower, when tracing you have to carefully follow the lines which I find to be slow and fustrating so yes it is sometimes quicker to draw freehand!

greywolf-art

11-21-2009, 07:32 AM

your drawings are great joolee, from a great start like this you certainly have the potential to go on to bigger and better things :)

Peter D

11-21-2009, 07:43 AM

If you are going to make sweeping inflamatory statements then you are inevitably going to upset people, however I have no intention of 'falling out' with anyone on here - even the closest of friends have the occasional fight, its just one of those things!

If art is not passionate it is nothing so passionately held opinions are both inevitable and in my view desirable. The one thing the Cafe Guerbois was not was bland. As for bullying - what bullying? Cajoling, questioning, getting people to lift their eyes a little higher yes but no bullying Graham. Milk and water, grey, let's be so nice that no body dares volunteer an honest opinion gets people nowhere. This has been a robust but good discussion and will get people thinking about what they do and why they do it and that is a good thing.

greywolf-art

11-21-2009, 09:55 AM

To say you are passionate about something is great I agree and this has been a lively and passionate debate, To dismiss people's art as being amateur however is not - derogatory statements get people nowhere and contribute nothing to intelligent debate, and at the end of the day is bullying whether that was the original intention or not.

Please lets not confuse sweeping remarks about peoples artistic ability with constructive criticism, I'm not having a go at you here Peter as it wasn't you who made the statements in question, but I'm sure even you would have to agree that dismissing somebody's work offhand is not going to encourage them to strive for anything better is it?

BTW I don't care about being 'nice' and never said I wanted to be, if I don't like somebody's work I generally just don't bother to comment (unless I have a useful suggestion to make, and then only if i see sufficient potential in that persons work to merit my bothering to comment)

I certainly don't bother with the mutual congratulations that plague these forums where people keep saying "nice work" regardless of the artistic quality or merit, if I say I like your work then you can be sure that you have impressed me or I can see the potential in you as I won't give out compliments willy nilly

greywolf-art

11-21-2009, 10:25 AM

Anyway since this seems to be turning into a 'show us the proof session' LOL then here are a handful of my life sessions, I've only recently returned to life drawing after a break of about 25 years, so I still have a long way to go yet but thats ok cause I don't expect to get there immediately :)

a 5 minute sketch in lump sanguine & white and naples yellow pastels:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/178945-life_2_sml.jpg

A longer 50 minute sketch in lump Sanguine, white & bistre pastel and charcoal:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/178945-life_drawing1_sml.jpg

A 1 1/2 hour drawing in conte pastels:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/178945-life3_sml.jpg

and the 50 minute painting I did the other night :

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/178945-life4_sml.jpg

BTW just for information purposes, when I refer to lump sanguine I mean lumps of raw natural sanguine chalk as dug up from the ground not the sanguine pencils / pastels, its not easy to get hold of (I only know of one supplier in the UK) but it is definitely superior to the manufactured sanguine media :)

Peter D

11-21-2009, 10:30 AM

I don't think anyone has dismissed anyone else's work as amateur Graham only that there can be a different perspective and motivation between amateurs ie non-professional and professionals. I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing this out and that this has a bearing on people's contributions and views in this kind of discussion. Of course there are 'amateurs' who are deadly serious about improving their skills and professionals who appear to have no ethics at all in hoodwinking their clients but generally speaking having to produce work that sells or producing commissioned work does concentrate the mind in a different way from for pleasure only artists. Absolutely nothing wrong with for pleasure only art but the imperatives are not the same that is all. I enjoy seeing someone who has just started out in art with all the technical problems they inevitably have and following their progress and it is great that this forum has the full range of artistic endeavour.

Just seen your life stuff Graham - absolutely nothing to be ashamed of there - good stuff. Never worked with sanguine but I have always liked the effect.

greywolf-art

11-21-2009, 11:04 AM

sanguine is a lovely medium to use for life drawing, the colour gives a very warm and natural looking effect and because it has a texture similar to a semi hard pastel it allows you to get a very fluid line without getting too hung up on finicky details - something I'm trying to train myself to do.

not that I object to detail in a life drawing but from the point of view of doing portraits from life I think its important to concentrate on getting my speed up, which is why the painting from life is so useful too as it concentrates you on the task of having to make every mark count :)

If I have one big fault its that I get the drawing to a good level quite quickly and instead of walking away I think "I'm paying for this so I'll get my moneys worth" and then end up putting loads more work into it (though I try to limit that to the drapery and background where possible)

Lauren F-M

11-21-2009, 11:32 AM

Jools & Graham -- thanks for posting your lifedrawings. Very strong stuff! :thumbsup:

Jools -- If I have it correctly, you have only recently started lifedrawing? :confused: If so, you show a keen skill that takes many years to develop. Your proportions are for the most part bang-on. I think it was just the last one (or one near the end) where the bottom proportions were a bit off with the top, but that happens commonly with most artists at a lifeclass. The faster ones of the woman were bang-on and spare -- wonderful! Those of the man are proportionally good, but your outside lines could be cleaner. I think it just shows you have a great eye & just need to gain confidence in doing a simpler line. I agree that you could start challenging yourself and cut back on the tracing. Try drawing by eye and then perhaps check with a tracing of your drawing over the photo (if they are the same size) to see how you are doing & what matches up. As you gain confidence, I think you will trace less and less. :thumbsup:

Lots of posts here since I checked in last night! :eek:

My plan was to follow up on the comment somewhere in this thread in the past few days about the aim of doing a portrait that captures more than just the visual accuracy of the model -- getting into who they are, how they view the world, what they might be thinking, their soul.... A very accomplished artist who regularly attends our weekly portraiture group now aims to capture the essence of the sitter rather than an exact likeness. He will complete a lovely oil painting in one session of just over 2 hours. He will knock off 2 or 3 wonderful charcoal sketches in the same time. While he can do an accurate one of what the sitter looks like, he says he has moved on to trying to get deeper.

As for me, I work at getting a likeness and an essence. I like to talk with the sitters to get to know them, though we don't do that throughout a sitting, because with 2 sitters (back to back, facing each side of the room, with a curtain separation) and up to 20 artists, we need to accommodate everyone's work preferences. Even music in the background gets debated! :lol:

I know I aim to capture something, and if I feel I've gotten it, the work is usually a success. However, as these are just studies for myself and not commissions, I know that the sitter often has an opinion on how they prefer to be portrayed. :rolleyes:

Now, to follow up on another thing discussed here -- drawing in line -- I found 2 examples in some old sketchbooks of mine, and here are two:
my husband, in graphite:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/20772-Jim.jpg

In pen; two men in a coffee house playing chess:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/20772-OdinsEye.jpg

Peter D

11-21-2009, 12:00 PM

Lovely stuff Lauren. Good flowing lines. I particularly liked the hands of the harp player in the previous ones.

greywolf-art

11-21-2009, 12:17 PM

Very good lauren, I particularly like the pen drawing, it takes a lot of skill and confidence to use a medium that can't be erased :)

Netty

11-21-2009, 03:32 PM

I agree, some really great drawings Jools, Graham and lauren :D life drawing is so valuable.

I found and article while browsing one of my fav art sites ( Stroke of Genius) last night, totally by accident I came accross this WIp, from an award winning New York City artist Gerald Slater.
His methods are interesting.

http://www.slaterart.com/indexpages/storyindex/storyone.html

Lauren I do agree,
Having the advantage of sitting with the person you are painting and talking with them , getting to know their personality and read their spirit is one of the best things about painting a portrait. You capture more and the challenge is in putting what you have captured down onto canvas. Placing there personality in, the eyes, the smile, the look they have, it all is a challenge.
Doing quick sketches of people to try to capture this, just ones for my own learning and understanding, is something I really want to do more of.

I spent a few months visitng the nursing home each Friday to draw the residence. I had a great time chatting with them as I drew, but as they are elderly , it isn't always possible to chat for too long, this is my fav one of Mary :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/85966-mary.JPG

kevinwueste

11-21-2009, 10:37 PM

joolee

11-22-2009, 05:44 AM

Thank you Mary, Peter & Graham for your comments about my drawings. All this really has given me food for thought. Why did I start to trace? Well, when I first joined this site coming up to a year ago, I searched for info on tracing, as I knew others were doing it, to find out what the view was. I found the posting I mentioned in one of my previous postings on this thread and it seemed to me that it was fairly common practice. The timing issue is a real one for me. I don't spend ages doing an accurate tracing - its very much a quick outline - because all the tweaking is done in the painting. If I was to sketch the initial drawing out, I would still have to trace it to transfer it to the pastel board. But I'm going to have to have a go now, aren't I??

Good work on the life drawings, Graham. We have a different approach, it would seem, as I am very keen to be able to get the details in - feet and hands seem to cause me problems, particularly in the quick sketches, so I want to concentrate on these more in future classes.

Yes, Lauren, I have just started life classes this September. Other than a few quick sketches of family members over the years, the only other real life drawing I have done was for my A level assessment over 30 years ago!! You are right that the last one isn't right. This was why I was out of my comfort zone. I knew the foreshortened leg wasn't correct but the rubbing out and redrawing gets me down a bit. With pastel, you just move it about as you go. That's what I mean about seeing in shapes rather than lines. But, looking at the drawings, I can see that the classes are worth it - they are helping me to imrpove. And you are probably right about the tracing being a confidence issue. How pathetic of me. Its a bit like a kid ditching the stabilizers when learning to ride a bike!!

Your drawings are excellent, by the way. There is energy in this style of drawing which does convey something other than a likeness of the sitters.

Which brings me back to something else I said earlier (or at least I meant to say if I didn't) - that a portrait is something much more than accuracy of likeness. To me, it is largely in the eyes. If the eyes communicate with the audience, the portrait comes alive.

Annie, thank you for the link. I'm going to bookmark this and have a go at a portrait in exactly the same way. Lovely sketch of the old lady - and a good idea to do life drawing at an old peoples' home.

Kevin, all of your drawings are good but the last one is truly fabulous. I would love to be able to produce something like this but I have no idea how to start. Can I ask what medium you are using please? Do you rub out lines or are the lines we see all the ones you made?

Jools

greywolf-art

11-22-2009, 07:29 AM

excellent drawing kevin, I can see your working process in a lot of these - finding the simple shapes and angles then using them as a 'scaffold' to draw the body on, not unlike my own approach to drawing, though you are much better at it than me, that last drawing is especially good, maybe after a year or so of practicing my life drawing I'll be that good too :)

this is probably the biggest hurdle for me at the moment - the actual life drawing practice, the life drawing class is on a difficult day for me as its on the same day & time as my local art club, where I like to help out a lot teaching the old folks how to paint & draw ect so a bit of a conflict there, I'm trying to get into a routine of art club one week then life drawing alternate weeks, but with various illnesses recently even that has not exactly worked out either - soo fustrating!

I like Netty's drawing too, great idea going into the old folks home to do drawings though I'm not sure I personally could do it, having recently watched my Gran deterioate and slowly die in a hospice I would have difficulty going into a place like that to draw - too many bad memories I guess, even looking at your drawing made me feel uneasy.

Joolee I can see your point about transferring your drawing to pastel paper, bit of a difficult one that, I always draw directly onto the paper myself, but then I have a scaling/transfer technique that enables me to do that quite accurately without tracing :) its one of the key techniques I teach my students in my workshops.

I don't know what part of the UK you are in but if you ever find yourself near Doncaster, S.Yorks, you are more than welcome to pop in so I can show you the methods I use, you might find them useful/interesting :)

Peter D

11-22-2009, 09:44 AM

Jools,

I have my easel next to my computer monitor - I blow up the photo to the real size I want and then use pencil and thumb to transfer measurements from monitor to paper or canvas - 20 mins is all you need to get enough down to start painting. I don't like to start with a detailed drawing as I find this inhibiting. It is ridiculously easy for someone with your talent Jools.

kevinwueste

11-22-2009, 10:14 AM

Jools - drawing and painting from life - to me at least - opens up a whole dimension of what you get to SEE ( color, form, nuance and all this "human-ness" that is missing in 2D).. at first it is intimidating ( they are breathing, moving, looking at you - all that) but then it somehow becomes freeing ? I don't have a good word to describe. The last drawing is graphite and white chalk on mi-tientes "storm" ( i think) paper, on the smoother side. I don't blend ( almost every) and let the line work do its thing. I find blending muddles up the forms or flattens them and then I have to go back anyway.. I use VERY Sharp pencils or charcoals.. As Graham mentioned - all my drawings ( except perhaps superfast gestures) start as "scaffolding" - we call them envelopes and get more specific as I go. A few of the charcoals from recent sessions are xposted in Figures yesterday..

Graham - nonsense - you have shown some beautiful work in color that I really have enjoyed! but the techniques I have learned can help one build structures that are a bit more confident I think ? don't have a good word..
Lauren - love those drawings/sketches -
Annie - the ethos in that drawing of the old lady is .. astonishing!
Jools - your painting of Alice is excellent and beautiful.. projecting or tracing or whatever - the results show what you can do! -- but some day when you get to paint one from life - I will be first in line for the show!!!!!:clap:

nota:You all should be posting these great figures in the Figure forum !! (another great group I am a guide for here at WC!!).. a few portrait heads (allaprima) are there too!

greywolf-art

11-22-2009, 10:58 AM

yeah I must admit I do tend to stick to the portraiture forum most of the time (I go on the WMO forum too but there's a lot of politics going on there that's been putting me off a bit) so i may well post in there later on :)

Lauren F-M

11-22-2009, 05:05 PM

a 5 minute sketch in lump sanguine & white and naples yellow pastels:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/178945-life_2_sml.jpg

Graham -- this is my favourite of the drawings you posted. I really like the simplicity of it; straight-forward, with a simple palette & lovely mood! :thumbsup:

Lauren F-M

11-22-2009, 05:08 PM

I spent a few months visiting the nursing home each Friday to draw the residence. I had a great time chatting with them as I drew, but as they are elderly , it isn't always possible to chat for too long, this is my fav one of Mary :)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/85966-mary.JPG

Annie -- nicely captured mood; I can imagine her resting like this. My own 95-year-old dad often nods off like this in his chair. :D

Lauren F-M

11-22-2009, 05:14 PM

Below: only proof I am rusty in drawing quick figures! ( mostly been doing longer multi-hour work at school).. sometimes a glimmer.. but only sometimes..

below - a woman model who was very challenging to find the "womanly-ness".. ( from this saturday morning.. not lots of winning today!).. 20 mins..

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2009/164138-sam_1.JPG

Kevin -- oh, my! Rusty? :confused: Surely, you jest! :evil: Lovely work, as always. :thumbsup: I like the clearly-shown "envelope" you have talked about, that Anthony Ryder uses. I need to try it. I have his book, so will try to find the time before my next lifedrawing group to check it out. :rolleyes:

It reminds me of an exercise I am supposed to do, recommended by my drawing teacher (who studied with John Angel) of doing daily shape exercises. Here, you work to copy a shape (random contained shapes; easily found in paintings, photos) size as, by eye on tracing paper. Then put the finished shape drawing over the original to see how well they match. The more often one does this, the better one's eye sees shapes -- angles, relationships... -- which would certainly help for seeing the envelope.

Lauren F-M

11-22-2009, 05:35 PM

Which brings me back to something else I said earlier (or at least I meant to say if I didn't) - that a portrait is something much more than accuracy of likeness. To me, it is largely in the eyes. If the eyes communicate with the audience, the portrait comes alive.

Jools --interesting what you say about the eyes. Last night I didn't miss Star Portraits and the sitter (Ashley MacIsaac, a fabulous young fiddler from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia) has the most amazing blue eyes! He is quite a character and was very chatty & engaging -- which surprised me, because when he first had fame he seemed like such a bad boy. Each of the three artists did portray his eyes well, but the portrait he chose was the most traditional, as he plans to give it to his parents. He said that this portrait captured his eyes the best and were the eyes "I see in the bathroom mirror every day." A very good episode!

While I haven't had the in-depth "atelier" training (not knowing a better word to describe it) that Kevin has had & is currently studying, I have recently studied with 2 artists who have, so am familiar with the approach. I have found that the things I have learned -- on top of my previous approachs -- have helped me immensely. I wish I had time & opportunity to do more, but we are lucky in that there are much more resources available now than when I went to art school in the 1970's -- more good books, DVDs & forums like WetCanvas and what else is available via the Internet. :thumbsup:

One very valuable thing I've learned from both artists is to not get into the little details early on! Hard as that can be for many, it's best to leave the details -- eyes, noses, mouths, fingers, toes... -- until much later, once you have the form and proporttions correctly. Before you put them in, be aware of the large shadow shapes. I find that just blocking in the feet and hands can often be way better than finishing them; it depends on the drawing and the time you have. Also, even if you have blocked in the whole figure, you don't need to do detail on the whole figure -- just concentrate on refining one part, and that can end up being just fine.

Also -- kudos to Kevin for talking up the Figure forum. I'm also a guide on there, and the folks there are so wonderful. :thumbsup:

greywolf-art

11-22-2009, 06:50 PM

Graham -- this is my favourite of the drawings you posted. I really like the simplicity of it; straight-forward, with a simple palette & lovely mood! :thumbsup:

Yeah I like this one too, nice and simple, sometimes my 5 min sketches come out better than my longer poses LOL, the sanguine rock helps here because like charcoal its a very fluid medium that suits simple flowing lines very well :)

Netty

11-22-2009, 06:59 PM

There is another aspect of all this that is worthy of discussion. I am not sure how many here are full time artists, but if you are you are truely blessed!!

Blessings come in many shapes and forms, and I have a few live blessings at home who walk and talk and they are my priority. Like any mum and wife your family is number 1 , then there is the day job, not to mention the dreaded housework work! Being a mum is really a self sacrificing situation, mum always comes last, lol, thats what mums do! Today I had planned to spend it painting as it is my only real day to myself, but, my youngest son who just turnes 6 has come down with the flue and a high temp, so there is life, and we do what we do because we love our family .
Jools, I know you have the same life situations and being able to multi task is essential !! So when we have the depest desire to become a better artist, it is so hard to find the time, I for one would love so much to attend life drawing classes, or go to an art colledge to learn the art of portrait painting from professional artists. To be able to spend each and everyday learning would be fantastic, it is a dream that keeps me going !
Priorities come first, and one day, when the kids are older, and I do not have the commitments as I do now, I will really enjoy spening a whole lot more time with my art.

I would be interested to know what others think, how do you manage your time with other commitments?

Kevin, your drawings are extremely beautiful, I love the way you use your pencils , it gives so much life to each of these.

Graham, I can understand. For me going to the nursing home was difficult too, but my heart just melted when I saw these people who sit there day after day, without a visitor, and when I walked in each Friday their faces would light up! That was well worth it for me!! Hopefully I will have some more time to go back again.

Peter, I also draw from my monitor when I am using photo ref. I find it such a great way , as I also have the image the same size as I am painting it on my canvas, using my painting brush as a guide for measurements.

Kevin, thanks for your comments on Mary although I am not sure what ethos means ?

Thanks guys,
be happy
Annie :heart:

Netty

11-23-2009, 02:48 AM

Sharing a few more drawings, sketches, whatnot...

This is Elijah my son, I think it was the first freehand drawing I did with pastel, it is from a photo as I could never have him sit still long enough :confused:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Nov-2009/85966-Elijah_15-5-07.JPG

I love collecting vinatge pictures, this is one I did with charcoal and white pastel,her back needs some attention, now I look at it. She is sitting in my folder of sketches

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Nov-2009/85966-Gazing_Out_The_Window_-_Copy.JPG

This last one is my former art teacher and her son, it is drawn in white pastel on black stonehenge. This was an art class exercise, and I really love the effect on black.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Nov-2009/85966-Lesly.jpg

greywolf-art

11-23-2009, 05:41 AM

the power cable to my laptop has broken so I'm posting from my studio computer at the moment, only thing is that this computer has a proper calibrated monitor and now I'm seeing all all sorts of problems with pictures I've posted - way too warm and fuzzy :eek:

it is so bad I've just redone my signature pic because it looked so bad when I saw it properly (I didn't have a calibrated monitor when I made it and because I usually use my lappy for the internet I just didn't notice how bad it was)

Bright Eyes

11-23-2009, 12:54 PM

Grey I have the same problem with my screen :o I need to get it fixed so I can post my paintings the way they're supposed to be.

Netty I really love the last drawing in black and white.

greywolf-art

11-23-2009, 03:51 PM

unless you are willing to spend thousands on a profesional screen the only way to ensure accurate screen colours is to use a device like this:

calibration device (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&sku=649202&is=REG&A=details&Q=)

this is the cheapest one I've seen (mine is more expensive but it came bundled with my giclee printer) how critical it is to have an accurate monitor depends on what you are using it for, if for example you use the monitor as a reference while painting then keeping it calibrated is probably a very good idea

joolee

11-25-2009, 09:20 AM

Sorry, posted twice

joolee

11-25-2009, 09:22 AM

Greywolf - I'm in Surrey, so quite a way from Donaster. But it would be great to get together one day. Perhaps we should arrange a Wetcanvas UK artists get together? I know there is Leigh and Sophie - although I have no idea where they reside - and others lurking about on the portraits forum. Perhaps we could all descend on Peter in sunny Spain :D :D

Your idea about drawing straight from the computer screen is a good one, Peter, but I would probably prefer to print out the image and do it that way. This is where I am painting -http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Nov-2009/169452-_Becks_004.jpg

- so not an ideal space for paints AND a computer!!

Kevin - you overestimate me :) but thanks for the encouragement you always give me :thumbsup: . I have wandered onto the Figure forum but its simply a case of trying to keep up with it all that puts me off being a regular poster there. I feel that I can't post expecting people to comment on my work unless I take the time to look at others' work and comment at least from time to time. Sometimes it takes me ages to decide what to write as I feel that I don't want to say - great work - when it isn't, but I do want to offer advice and encouragement when I can. The problem is, as I am self taught, I feel I don't always have the words to express what I feel is needed to improve the work. Anyway, I want to keep up with what's happening on the portrait forum and I feel I have a great deal to learn from the oils forum. If I spread myself any more thinly, I won't have any time to paint at all!

Lauren, there is an Atelier school in London which I would love to attend one day. I don't really have the first clue about art theory. From this site, I have just about sorted out what "value" means, but I really don't understand about hue and chroma. If I sat down and read about it, I'm sure it would all become clear - but it would eat into my painting time.

Annie - your sketches are beautiful. I love the one of your son and, guess what, I can see you in him, which is something else I meant to raise here. I am painting a portrait of two girls at the moment. I have known their parents for many years and, as I was starting to get to grips with the elder girl, I suddenly saw her father looking out at me. Later, when I started to get to grips with the youngest one, I could see her mother and her mother's mother!! As yet, I am not completely satisfied with the likeness of either girl but it is almost like I am building their DNA in layers. The same thing heppened to me a while back when I was doing a pastel portrait if my nephew. At a time before I was happy with his likeness, there was quite a while when his mother was staring out at me. Has anyone else experienced this? And something else (and I hope this doesn't sound too "arty-farty" as my heart beats to two different drums, one artistic and one brutally logical) - does anyone feel a communication with the person you are painting as you paint? Sometimes I feel I want to touch their image on the canvas/paper even if I am not actually painting. Okay, alright - first stages of madness :o

Anyway Annie, back to your drawings - I also really like the one of the lady. The guy in the local art shop told me that fairly simple drawings of partly clothed/naked women tastefully done are very marketable. So something to think about.

With regards to the fitting art in with other commitments, I have been giving some thought to how I work and what changes I could make. I am paid to work 2 days a week, although I teach on some weekend days and the rest of the time I mostly work from home. Over the years, I have allowed my work life and home life to blur to such an extent that I do some of that work most days of the week. I check my work e-mail several times each day, even at weekends, as my students are mainly part timers. I always tell them that I am available pretty much all the time. I really need to change this approach and have just two days a week when I work and that's it. That just leaves the cooking, cleaning and housework (which I truly hate with every cell in my body) and running about after 3 kids, a husband and a dog!

I am doing a WIP of the portrait of the girls which I shall post. Just to say - I had traced the image of the girls onto the canvas before our discussion here ;)

Jools

greywolf-art

11-25-2009, 11:49 AM

I'm lucky really that I have my own studio so space for painting ect is not an issue, and being self employed I can spend as much or as little time painting as I like so you could say I'm lucky like that :) I often use a computer monitor to work from too - its handy being able to zoom in on details :thumbsup:

This probably doesn't belong in here but I don't really want to join in the sculpture forum as well (I'm not planning on doing a lot of sculpture TBH) but anyway this is a recent attempt at sculpting a head for use in my my portraiture workshops:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Nov-2009/178945-gold_head1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Nov-2009/178945-gold_head2.jpg

There's a lot of mistakes in this, but then I havn't sculpted since I gave up professional sculpting a dozen years ago :rolleyes:

Its missing the back of the head because it was actually designed to be used in a one peice rubber mould so I could make copies of it, I sculpted it to give my students a solid but unmoving reference to practice drawing a 3d head from - and to demonstrate the way that hair can be represented as solid shapes instead of individual strands :)

Netty

11-26-2009, 05:03 AM

:eek: Oh Jools, you poor darling, you need a studio where you can spread yourself out and not have to pack up each day to do the kitchen wifey thing :lol:
That is one dedicated little painting (kitchen nook) spot you have there .

It is amazing when you paint a portrait and you identify with the person. When I did this sketch of Elijah, my son, I realised how much he looked like me, and it was a weird experience. I too feel conected to the person I am painting, like I am creating and modeling a face before me , and watching it progress is extremely satisfying. It isn't madness Jools, just a very creative expression of identifying with each person we paint, and a very special way of touching each soul and spirit of the person we paint, and letting it come alive in our paintings!!!

Graham, thats a pretty cool sculpture you have there !!

mburrell

11-26-2009, 03:35 PM

Annie,
Nice drawings glad I saw them. Just getting ready to sign off and they make me want to stay on, But got to go.
Mike

bethanyt

11-27-2009, 08:53 PM

Netty, I am relating to what you have posted! I did not have any formal training in art (only in teaching) and have in the past felt inadequate with lack of qualification, art is something that I have just always done. I joined weekend workshops and drawing groups over the years, and discovered that there is such a broad spectrum of learning.
I have friends who went to art school (and they became disillusioned and now rarely pick up a brush!) so I don't think that having the piece of paper will necessarily make me a better artist.
Age and experience is a great thing when it allows you to be OK with where and who you are. The path I'm on is where I'm meant to be (that's how I think when a painting is going well!)
When my children were younger I painted small things on cards to keep my sanity, constantly having to squeeze painting into little spaces of time. Often the total focus was mothering, improving as they grew. They knew how important my art was to me- my daughter used to say I was a much better mother when I had been painting. What ever house we had, I insisted I had a space to work in that was just mine.
Last year both my children left home, :( but I got full time teaching this year- the universe is generous!:clap: So I am still constantly having to make decisions about how I spend my time.
Even though I have been having sales and exhibitions over the years, I now have a registered art business- even though it's part-time, I feel more professional.
I give myself permission to say "No" to all the things that don't interest me. My time is precious! "I have a portrait commission to work on" is my standard response.
I give myself permission to be "selfish", to put my needs first, which is much easier now when there's just me and my husband at home (thank goodness he is obsessed with his motor bikes!) I now can devote my time and energy to just my paid work and painting!
Your work is really skillful- so keep doing what you are doing!
I hear where you are coming from, Netty! One of my favourite quotes- on my wall in my workspace (from the Artist's Way)
"Treating myself like a precious object will make me strong"

Netty

11-28-2009, 12:12 AM

Thankyou Bethany :heart: I am glad you have found a place to be able to enjoy your art and branch out in business as well as have your day job . Having a hubby who also has an interest or obsession, lol, makes life much easier for us wives who are painting crazy!

I like the quote on your wall, and it is so important to find that time to yourself to paint and be creative. My daughter also tells me to go and paint when I am seeming a bit grumpy, she agrees it makes for a happier mum!

In the past as a stay at home mum, as my youngest was not at school, I had every day to paint, and I absorbed myself in my painting each day, going to weekly art class and learning as much as i could from books, dvd's and the internet. Now Eli is in Kindy, and I was offfered a job , I couldn't really say no to good paying money. Even though I still had portrait commissions on the go.
Now I have decided to just concentrate on sharpening my skills and learning more by teaching myself, and really enjoying my artwork . I still have the occasional commission but am not too worried if they do not come in.
There is so much to enjoy and learn as an artist, which is what I love to do!

Bethany, you are at a wonderful place, enjoying your artwork and having the time to be able to do that. Sometimes I think it is an advantage to not have formal training, as you can search out what you want to learn and be in control of those things. But in saying this , I have never had any so I am most likely wrong.

It has been so hot and humid today, I really don't like to paint in the humidity, the paint reacts differently and does not do as it is told, lol.... I have been watching a portrait painting DVD and am inspired yet again :)

Thanks Bethany, hope it isn't too hot where you are today!

bethanyt

11-28-2009, 05:12 AM

Thanks, Netty! :wave:It was hot and windy, but because we are right on the coast it cooled down as the afternoon went on.
Yes, I painted today! I just put the finishing touches on 2 seascape paintings (commissions) this afternoon, so I stayed cool. It must be annoying for you to have the paint not do as you wish!
I'm looking forward to my life drawing group tomorrow afternoon, with a favourite model, and the weather is supposed to be not too hot. I will post the results in "the figure" forum next week.
We live in a tiny seaside town, but luckily there are many artists in the area, so enough people for a life drawing group. I help organise the sessions and various other portrait drawing sessions and exhibitions. When I couldn't find a drawing group- I organised my own!
I hope you have a group of like-minded artists around you to share your experiences with!

Netty

11-28-2009, 06:18 AM

Bethany,I will have to go and have a squiz over at the figure forums, and see what you are up to. Hope you enjoy your afternoon drawing group :)

We had a lovely afternoon sea breeze too, as well as some rain with storm clouds, at least it cooled it down somewhat.
I love the small artistic communities, I live on the Far North Coast of NSW and I imagine it to be similar to the area you live artistic speaking.
There are many life drawing groups and workshops happening. I really need to look into when and were they are happening , it would be fun:)

Would love to see your sea scapes, I was only thinking today about doing some land or sea scapes, taking my easel and paints out doors and just painting , sounds fun!!!

joolee

11-28-2009, 04:38 PM

Annie, sorry it has taken me so long to come back to you. I have been busy working and, when I have been able to get on here, I have been having problems with my computer/telephone connection or both. I keep getting kicked out mid message - so frustrating. You have a way of expressing feelings so perfectly.

Reading through your communications with Bethany makes me realise how many of us there are out there in similar situations. I know I am much happier since I started to paint agian - but its a chicken and egg situation. Did becoming happier (after the kids had become a little less stressful) allow me to paint, or was it a case of me picking up the brush/pastels and becoming happier? Sometimes I feel that painting is completely self indulgent - so be it!

I love your wall quote, Bethany, but I also like the Eliot one. being a little pass my self by date myself, I can really relate to that. I'm going to copy that out and stick it on my wall.

Had to miss my life class on Thursday because I was asked to cover for someone on Friday, so I had the preparation to do. I can't stand in front of a class without being ready for anything!

Greywolf, what fun sculpture is. I did a class about 10 years ago, and loved it. There doesn't seem to be anything like that around here nowadays.

Jools

bethanyt

11-28-2009, 06:46 PM

Jools, it seems we have lots in common! My wall has many quotes on it along with the sketches and ideas for paintings.
Annie, you can see my completed efforts herehttp://bethanyart.blogspot.com

bethanyt

11-28-2009, 06:48 PM

PS I have done some clay figures and would love to do more. Working 3D with clay is really satisfying and seems to help me draw better, too.

Netty

11-28-2009, 09:22 PM

Jools , sorry to hear you have computer problems, it is so very annoying when you are booted off mid way through a reply !!!
I think painting in itself helps us with our frustrations, it is therapy in many ways, and does give us so much gratification, which in turn makes everyone happy if mum is happy :)

Bethany, your sea scapes are really lovely, those rocks you painted are so colourful and look great. It is so beautiful going down to the beach and just sitting in the water, watching the waves crashing on the rocks.

Lauren F-M

11-28-2009, 11:44 PM

Bethany -- I agree that your landscapes are wonderful! :thumbsup: Also, that painting on your blog about the stages of life, done with hands is amazing! :clap:

While I did go to art school before I had my kids, I can relate to a lot of this discussion. I really slowed down on doing art after I got my art degree; I think that the whole art education process I went through kind of burnt me out, now that I ponder on it. Also, when I had my kids my creative approach changed, and I did stuff that worked in with raising them -- did illustration, did arts & crafts with kids, did editing & things I could do from home or just part-time. I also volunteered a lot at my children's schools & was on the arts committee, helping organize and run special art activities in the elementary school.

I finally was ready & determined to get back to art on a regular basis a few years ago & now have a room in the house that is a decent-sized studio.

So my perspective now, in my 50's is certainly different from when I was in my 20's; we bring the richness our life experience to what we do.

However, I do think that artists who want to grow and improve -- self-taught or not -- really benefit from getting critiques from other artists they respect who will be honest and fair. We don't always see what needs improvement in our work or when we need to be more demanding of ourselves. It might be technical or just the content. Make sure you are challenging yourself as well as expressing yourself; not necessarily all the time, but on a regular basis. (getting off the soapbox now...) :D

greywolf-art

11-29-2009, 04:47 AM

PS I have done some clay figures and would love to do more. Working 3D with clay is really satisfying and seems to help me draw better, too.

Yes i believe it does, sculpting in 3D helps you to appreciate the construction of the shapes and how everything fits together in a way that enhances your ability to draw those same shapes, I think its because with drawing you are only taking into account one viewpoint whereas with sculpture you have to look at an object from every conceivable angle so you get a fuller picture of whats going on :)

Netty

11-29-2009, 05:10 AM

However, I do think that artists who want to grow and improve -- self-taught or not -- really benefit from getting critiques from other artists they respect who will be honest and fair. We don't always see what needs improvement in our work or when we need to be more demanding of ourselves. It might be technical or just the content. Make sure you are challenging yourself as well as expressing yourself; not necessarily all the time, but on a regular basis. (getting off the soapbox now...) :D

Yes, I do agree Lauren, one of the reasons why I wish I could find a good portrait group.
Wetcanvas has been a wonderful place to be involved with though. For the very reason you do have a chance to find honest critique, as well as help and friendship from the wonderful people that are here :)

It is funny you mentioned how your art became more relative to your kids, I have recently been involved with my kids school, helping the students paint a life sized cow in all colourful designs for a fun nutritional program .

Lauren F-M

11-29-2009, 09:04 AM

Netty -- I've actually picked up creative ideas from kids, as they can come up with new and innovative ways to do things. Some kids are really spontaneous and not 'by the book' -- so we can learn a lot from them. :D

Our portrait group is held in a municipal centre; one of quite a few in our city, as there are community centres and multi-plexes in various parts of the metropolitan area. This one is actually a large sportsplex, with three hockey rinks, a curling rink, and among other things, a visual arts centre -- also in that area is the seniors' centre and a pottery studio. There are also two art galleries for municipally-run art shows.

Besides lots of art courses, the arts centre runs quite a few art workshops; that is, no teachers & coordinated by the individual groups. One is the portrait group I attend Wednesday mornings. The City charges a reasonable registration fee to cover maintenance & insurance & it is up to our group to organize and pay the models. Currently one guy is booking them & I am figuring the cost, collecting the money and paying the models. There are about 3 lifedrawing workshops also held during each week, run the same way. If there is not enough interest and/or people willing to coordinate the models and set-up, the groups fizzle out. There used to be an all-day long-pose lifedrawing group on Tuesdays, but it ended due to not enough people continuing and no one willing to book and pay the models. I think this was mostly due to changes in what the artists were doing. Some go away in winter, others get commission work or other work that needs their time.

I find going in two mornings a week rather a time-commitment, but I love it and find it really helps me to do it. Some weeks it might be the only live art I do, due to other things demanding my time.

So, if you have a municipal or community centre -- even a school or church -- where you can get space at a reasonable rate & then find enough artists to attend, you could get such a group going. It's a great way to get to know other artists. For me, coming back into it after so long & now living in a city where I don't really have art connections, it's been a wonderful entrance into it all. Plus, I've made some wonderful friends. :thumbsup:

Lauren F-M

11-29-2009, 09:14 AM

Yes i believe it does, sculpting in 3D helps you to appreciate the construction of the shapes and how everything fits together in a way that enhances your ability to draw those same shapes, I think its because with drawing you are only taking into account one viewpoint whereas with sculpture you have to look at an object from every conceivable angle so you get a fuller picture of whats going on :)

I certainly agree. I took clay portrait sculpting classes many years ago, starting in my late teens. I had the opportunity to study with a wonderful Czech sculptress who would have live models for 3 - 4 weeks, and we would move our stands around them to see and work from all sides; even going up and looking up and down at their heads. We learned how to hollow them out and then let them dry for a long slow period -- over a month -- so the clay wouldn't crack and could be fired. Luckily, at the time my brother was a potter, so I had access to a kiln.

I found it did influence my drawing & I find I sometimes get frustrated, as I want to 'sculpt' the figure, and the drawing tools can seem limiting... or perhaps it's just my methods. :lol:

Graham -- one thing about using sculptures for drawing from. I have been studying the old atelier style (a la Bargue/ Gerome) and the preferred casts/ busts to work from should be a flat white. It makes it much simplier to see the lights/ shadows and the values. Also very clear to work from a greyscale value chart such as Munsell. Just the plain plaster is excellent.

greywolf-art

11-29-2009, 02:17 PM

I certainly agree. I took clay portrait sculpting classes many years ago, starting in my late teens. I had the opportunity to study with a wonderful Czech sculptress who would have live models for 3 - 4 weeks, and we would move our stands around them to see and work from all sides; even going up and looking up and down at their heads. We learned how to hollow them out and then let them dry for a long slow period -- over a month -- so the clay wouldn't crack and could be fired. Luckily, at the time my brother was a potter, so I had access to a kiln.

I found it did influence my drawing & I find I sometimes get frustrated, as I want to 'sculpt' the figure, and the drawing tools can seem limiting... or perhaps it's just my methods. :lol:

Graham -- one thing about using sculptures for drawing from. I have been studying the old atelier style (a la Bargue/ Gerome) and the preferred casts/ busts to work from should be a flat white. It makes it much simplier to see the lights/ shadows and the values. Also very clear to work from a greyscale value chart such as Munsell. Just the plain plaster is excellent.

yeah that sculpture I posted was the original which I painted gold to help highlight any mistakes (gold can be very unforgiving in that way), but the copies of it were painted a mid neutral grey to help show the light / shadow better :)

bethanyt

11-30-2009, 06:01 AM

Annie and Lauren, thanks for the compliments. Landscapes are so much simpler that portraits! I hand them over this week... so fingers crossed!

I think what Lauren said about being open to critique is vital. I learned a very early lesson from a respected artist when I plucked up the courage to show some early work. He said don't be precious about your work, otherwise you will never learn. It is a stage in your development to listen to another artist (who's work you respect!) give some constructive comments about your work. Anyone can see when its not right- but I want to know what I can do to move on and improve my skills and have an informative chat about it, too. That's another reason I'm here! Living in an isolated area means talking about art is a rare and valuable thing.

Lauren F-M

11-30-2009, 11:17 AM

Bethany --

I agree with you so much about being open to criticism & not being too precious about our work, as I think we need to be open to finding out how we can improve. My mother has always been a critic I respect, as she has a good eye & is brutally honest. I need that! :rolleyes:

Also, I recall back at artschool, where there was an advanced pottery programme that my brother was in. The beginner potters learning to work on the wheel would have to spend days throwing (making) cylinders (or bowls -- whatever they were working on learning) that were all supposed to be uniform. After producing a lot of beautiful looking work, the teacher would then have then take a wire and slice them in half to check on how even and well they had done them. All that work, and then it had to be destroyed in order to learn! A good lesson, I think. :thumbsup:

Also, I find that I can endlessly study and think I need to learn more -- good, but I also need to find the point when I am making work that is done and mature; to have my 'artist backbone' and identity. So, I guess it's a balance of being open to criticism and learning, while also becoming strong as individual artists with something to say.

bethanyt

12-01-2009, 04:34 AM

Everything you have said, Lauren, I am in total agreement! :thumbsup:
Its so great to find some like-minded people! Sometimes it's even a surprise to get positive feedback from a respected source!
I remember quite a few years ago I joined a tutored weekly drawing group with a very mixed range of ability. I just wanted access to live models, and didn't need the teaching part (so I told myself!) The tutor was a trained architect and had been a university lecturer and was a well-known artist. I didn't like his work much and he was not a people person, in fact he spoke bluntly and rarely smiled. He did not offer any kind of praise for the drawings shown at the end of each session, just pointed out all the faults.
Why did I keep showing up each week when many others dropped out? (It wasn't just the fact I had paid up front!)
He asked so many difficult questions of us - why did we draw? What were we trying to achieve? How important was technique? We need to respond directly to what we see.
We studied many of the greats (trying to copy some) and he was focused on Picasso much of the time, saying that he approached each subject as if he had never seen it before- with no pre-conceived ideas. All concepts I had spent little time considering.
Needless to say when he actually considered one of my life drawings OK- "You could frame that" I knew that he meant it. Those conversations have stayed with me, and I moved a little more away from just approval-seeking drawings/paintings and into more meaningful thinking about what I was doing.