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Marty C
10-11-2009, 08:17 PM
I am reposting a post I made in the WOYE Poll thread, as I think it needs to be said. We have noticed a trend emerging in this subforum where members are becoming increasingly separate from the Oils forum as a whole, posting completed works, WIPs etc only in this subforum. That is not the intent or the purpose of this sub-forum.

The main purpose of the WMO subforum is for discussion of the technical aspects of Water Miscible Oils. Issues such as paints, mediums, cleaning, drying times, paint handling, support preparation, varnishing etc. Anything to do with the technical attributes of WMO where those differ from traditional oils.

The subforum is intended to be a technical resource for those adherents of WMO, and for those seeking to learn more about WMO.

The WMO subforum is not intended to be a totally separate forum, divorced from traditional oils. WMOs are still oil paints. All the aspects of painting apart from some technical paint issues are identical for WMO and traditional oils. Works completed in WMO are welcome in the main forum, and I encourage threads on individual works to be posted there. Critiques and comments on works very rarely stray into the area of which type of paint was used. As we know, most comments relate to composition and design, colour usage, concept, etc. WMO works are welcome in the main forum, and the mod staff will not tolerate any disparaging comment directed towards any WMO works made because of the use of WM paint.

We do not want to see WMO become isolationist, as that is counter productive to the well being of WMO and the Oils forum in general. That was not and is not the intention, and we will be discouraging any moves which try to head in that direction.

If the push towards increasing isolationism continues, there is a very real possibility we will close this WMO sub-forum. It is not an us and them scenario, we are all oil painters with the vast majority of interests in common.

couturej
10-11-2009, 08:48 PM
I just have one thing to say. You've lost one member. You might want to read the description of the forum and Dougs' desciption as well in the welcome to the water mixable oils forum thread. Just one more example of how little respect WMOs has on WetCanvas and how easily you can disregard what it's best for its members.:confused:

Marty C
10-11-2009, 09:18 PM
I fail to see how my post could possibly be perceived as a lack of respect for WMO, Janet. As I stated, we do not and will not tolerate disparaging comments about WMO.

This forum was always intended as an area for the discussion of the technical aspects peculiar to WMO. Exclusivity is not it's aim.

Doug is not an oils moderator, his description was a brief introductory message to open the forum. It is not an official description of the sub-forum. If you want an official position, see my first post above.

We are quite happy for members to discuss Water Miscible Oils here, their attributes, problems, solutions, aids, and to support each other in their technical discussions. It is not however meant to be an autonomous forum totally divorced from the Oil Painting forum proper.

dcorc
10-11-2009, 11:35 PM
...how easily you can disregard what it's best for its members

Oh really?

And you think that its best for those using WMO to be sequestered away and totally ignore all the educational content, information, and members with considerable painting expertise in the main forum?

Aside from some materials issues of painthandling/rheology, solvents, and mediums, the vast majority of concerns of those using WMO and traditional oils are identical. In considerable measure, the Oils forum serves as a "general painting" forum, covering basic issues of (largely traditional, representational) painting.

Encouraging members who use WMOs to disregard or ignore that content because it is posted in the main forum - and particularly for beginner and intermediate level painters - does those members a grave disservice.

Ignoring the educational input of experienced artists discussing points such as design and composition, colour choices and use, drawing/placement, values and so on, because they are in the main forum, and failing to take advantage of that instruction, either in regard to your own paintings, or the opportunity of reading advice given to others, is certainly not in the best interests of the members using WMO.

Nor is it reasonable for members in this subforum who refuse to make use of the main forum, to expect either staff, or other expert members, to have to duplicate their efforts in order to provide the same educational content within the subforum.


Dave

greywolf-art
10-12-2009, 05:46 AM
I'm not trying to get into a big argument here but personally I've never used the main oils forum - even before this sub forum was opened up, not out of any prejudice against traditional oils users, its just that I've always hung around the portraiture forum which is non medium specific, but then I've never been interested in Critiques or advice on composition/colours ect, I know how to paint, so my only interest is in the technical aspects of painting and maybe communicating with like minded people.

I agree that if you are interested in critique then the main oils forum is as good as any - but then so would any of the other forums, colour and composition are not solely confined to oil painters and any of the forums on this site could give the same advice if you wanted it :)

There will always be a tendency for people to group together based on their common interests - its human nature to do so, and as I understand it there was a condition that if the forum wasn't being used enough it would be shut down, so its understandable that some people on here are posting all sorts to make sure the forum survives.

As far as I can tell no-one has actively discouraged anyone from looking at the main oils forum, so I don't see what you are referring to, if people post their paintings on here it is entirely their decision to do so, not a response to any requests for people to ignore the main oils forum - like it or not, people will say to their peers look what I've done, what do you think?

I suspect that some on here perhaps don't feel comfortable showing their work on the main oils forum because of the perceived prejudice against WM oils and the feeling that they wouldn't be taken seriously, this has never been a problem for me personally, but again I've always posted on the portraits forum not the oils forum - and still do BTW (its interesting to note however that I never even knew there was a prejudice against WM oils till I joined wet canvas, its only since coming to this site that I've found myself having to defend my choice of medium!)

I've seen other forums damaged by overzealous Admins trying to dictate how their members should act, moderation is one thing - trying to force people to behave in ways that they don't feel comfortable with is altogether different, and it would be a shame to see this community harmed by attempts to mould the way they behave and how they interact with others - I for one will continue to post on the portraits forum (in oils and pastels) and not bother with the forums I have no interest in such as the main oils forum (there's just never really been anything in there to appeal to me personally).

So although I do understand where you are coming from I do believe its a bit harsh to threaten to penalize people for forming a community of peers, at the end of the day any forum should be driven by the needs of the users not a minority group of administrators who believe they know best - in short, you can't control peoples browsing habits any more than you can control their thoughts - and that applies to any forum whether art based or a forum for motorbike enthusiasts.

P.S.
no offense Coutrej but I think you should stay on this forum - simply because a community is only as good as the people who populate it and by leaving you would harm the WM community more than you harm the Administators!

dbclemons
10-12-2009, 10:48 AM
Marty, it's my thinking that there's a limited amount of technical information specific to WMO paints that can be shared. If you expect to restrict it to that then the forum will likely soon become a ghost town. Eventually there'll be nothing new to say. It's getting to that point now. To be honest, the same questions get asked in other forums too over and over again, and there's only so much technical info about regular oils that can be shared that doesn't repeat itself. That was one of the reasons I originally voted against this forum, plus it seemed like segregation or a quarantine.

Nonetheless, you opened the door and now people have begun to make of it as they wanted. If you now try and control that behavior, be prepared for the consequences. I think you're over-moderating here. What difference does it matter where the work is shown, as long as it IS shown? Often imbedded in the artwork posting is a question that gets asked or uncovered, so it's not that easy to separate the technical issues. Say for example someone wants to post their work AND ask a technical question about it. Do they then have to make two posts in two different places linking them togther? How dumb does that sound?

In spite of my original sketicism, this forum has become a good place to visit, and share knowledge and experiences, even if it's already started to repeat itself. Big deal/ It's all just supposed to be one big oils forum anyway, right?

My suggestion, Marty, is to just let this forum evolve on it's own. Certainly it will need some moderation at times to keep things civil, but if you try and steer it to your own intent or threaten to shut it down, you'll likely find yourself rowing an empty boat anyway. True, an oil painting is an oil painting, but there's nothing preventing the members "outside" from coming here either. Imagine the Oils forum as a huge exhibit hall, but instead of a separate room for WMO with solid walls and a door with a pass-key, make it just a corner of the room where we can all stand around, be friendly, and come and go as we please. It's all about perception. If you dress this forum up with a restricted usage, people won't feel welcome. They obviously didn't before this forum was made, so threatening to restore that condition is no solution. Many people felt uncomfortable in the main forum, so this place has become a haven for them.

Why not find ways to coax readers of the regular oil forum to come visit here? To be honest, I sense a bit of favoritism among the moderators that leans more towards the "regular oils" camp that puts those here at a disadvantage. If you'd like for us all to virtually hold hands in unity, then instead of just trying to restrict the behavior, work on ways you can bring us all together.

Shirl Parker
10-12-2009, 11:15 AM
I agree completely with what was expressed by Graham and David above.

I for one NEVER plan to submit anything in the main oil forum and I'm not interested in browsing over there either. I come here for the WMO subforum and nothing else.

Marty C
10-12-2009, 11:25 AM
my only interest is in the technical aspects of painting and maybe communicating with like minded people.

And that is precisely the use to which we want the WMO to be put. Discussion and communication of the technical aspects of WMO. No argument whatsoever!

There will always be a tendency for people to group together based on their common interests - its human nature to do so, and as I understand it there was a condition that if the forum wasn't being used enough it would be shut down, so its understandable that some people on here are posting all sorts to make sure the forum survives.

And if we cater to everyone's interests groups we could fragment the oils community here on WC even more. We could have an Underpainters Subforum, an Alla Prima subforum, an Old Holland Afficianado subforum etc etc. Sound ridiculous? WMOs has more in common with traditional oils than differences, and yet it has its own subforum. If we set up subforums to cater for every special interest group of friends within a medium you could imagine the result.

I suspect that some on here perhaps don't feel comfortable showing their work on the main oils forum because of the perceived prejudice against WM oils and the feeling that they wouldn't be taken seriously

I have posted this three times in two threads, but I'll state it yet again. There is a zero tolerance policy for disparaging WMO. People in the main oils forum do not state their work is painted using traditional oils, I don't see why those using WMO need to state their work is done using WMOs. It is work completed using oils. It is not an issue. The WMO subforum is there for addressing any technical issues, they need not arise at all in the main forum. WMO users have nothing, repeat nothing, to fear from the main oils forum.

I've seen other forums damaged by overzealous Admins trying to dictate how their members should act, moderation is one thing - trying to force people to behave in ways that they don't feel comfortable with is altogether different, and it would be a shame to see this community harmed by attempts to mould the way they behave and how they interact with others

A large part of moderation is precisely that - moderating member behaviour, ensuring a respectful, polite atmosphere, keeping the peace, disciplining those who violate the UA by insulting others, by being disruptive, argumentative or hostile to the members. If we did not act thus, anarchy would soon follow and Wet Canvas would be an entirely different type of forum.


in short, you can't control peoples browsing habits any more than you can control their thoughts - and that applies to any forum whether art based or a forum for motorbike enthusiasts.

We do not, and will not try to control people's browsing habits. That is not our intention, it is beyond our control and we have no interest whatsoever in controlling how people browse. We do, however, have an interest in content, in what is placed where, in accessibility, in excessive duplication. This thread was prompted by the WOYE poll. There is little point in duplicating the features of the main forum for the WMO subforum when the mediums are essentially the same thing!

Marty C
10-12-2009, 11:26 AM
I agree completely with what was expressed by Graham and David above.

I for one NEVER plan to submit anything in the main oil forum and I'm not interested in browsing over there either. I come here for the WMO subforum and nothing else.

Exactly who is prejudiced against whom here, Shirl?

HankB
10-12-2009, 01:37 PM
I'm pretty new around here but was glad to find the WMO sub-section especially when considering giving them a try. I wanted to see paintings done specifically with WMOs and ask users about them. I was unaware of any bias against WMOs until reading this. I'll post my paintings in whichever forum you tell me to but to me it just made sense to post WMO paintings in the WMO section.

Now that I think about it though, I've been posting my plein air paintings in the plein air section regardless of medium.

Dana Design
10-12-2009, 01:51 PM
I just have one thing to say. You've lost one member. You might want to read the description of the forum and Dougs' desciption as well in the welcome to the water mixable oils forum thread. Just one more example of how little respect WMOs has on WetCanvas and how easily you can disregard what it's best for its members.:confused:

I simply cannot understand how you can possibly perceive that we are disregarding what's best for the members. We have taken in hand the slights that have been referred to and have disallowed any and all denigrating comments. How is that disregarding what's best?

Doug is the Tech Admin who simply opened up the space for the forum. His description has nothing to do with how the forum is being operated. The forum is actually for ALL of our members and the exclusivity that some are trying to foment is against ALL of what the Wet Canvas COMMUNITY stands for.

Between Marty, Dave and myself, we have over 19 years of experience on WC and we have seen what happens to a forum when it becomes inclusive and divisive with other closely-allied forums. We are heavily devoted to having a successful forum, a forum that interacts with other forums. If one chooses not to interact, that is their choice but that choice also limits what could be a wider learning experience.

dbclemons Why not find ways to coax readers of the regular oil forum to come visit here? To be honest, I sense a bit of favoritism among the moderators that leans more towards the "regular oils" camp that puts those here at a disadvantage. If you'd like for us all to virtually hold hands in unity, then instead of just trying to restrict the behavior, work on ways you can bring us all together.

The WMO forum is listed boldly at the top of the Oils Forum and I know that others pop in from time to time to read the board and seek more information on WMOs. There is absolutely NO favoritism by the mods toward "regular oils". Just as you use WMOils and seek information here, we, as well, read several forums for information and advice. And what we are doing is trying to bring us all together. How can that be a disadvantage to anyone?

Some use oils that are mixable with water and some use oils that require another type of medium. They are still oils! I have never used 'smelly turps' but choose to use Odorless Mineral Spirits without any smell at all. But I could use the same argument relative to those who look down upon 'smelly turps'. Is that prejudice toward my usage of OMS? Or turps, if that were my choice?

We are not restricting behavior...quite the opposite, in fact. What is restrictive are those who want to isolate themselves from any other forum on WC!! Isolating forums will not be allowed as through the years, we have spent an enormous amount of time developing and bringing this community to be one of the best art sites in the world.

This tempest in a teapot has gone overboard and all because of a WOYE request. I seriously doubt that were anyone to post their work in the main forum, that their work would be ignored based upon the usage of WMOils.

Can we stop this silliness and get back to painting while also affording each other the respect that we all expect and deserve?

Dana Design
10-12-2009, 01:53 PM
I'm pretty new around here but was glad to find the WMO sub-section especially when considering giving them a try. I wanted to see paintings done specifically with WMOs and ask users about them. I was unaware of any bias against WMOs until reading this. I'll post my paintings in whichever forum you tell me to but to me it just made sense to post WMO paintings in the WMO section.

Now that I think about it though, I've been posting my plein air paintings in the plein air section regardless of medium.

Hank, great to have you here! You can post anywhere you'd like! And you can also cross-post to two forums for a wider audience.

Happy painting!

Shirl Parker
10-12-2009, 02:01 PM
Exactly who is prejudiced against whom here, Shirl?

Call it whatever derogatory word you want, but I don't want to have to open post after post to see if the work is WMO or not. It does make sense to post them in the WMO subforum, and anyone else who wants to post in the main oils forum can do so, but it won't be me.

Dana Design
10-12-2009, 02:09 PM
Shirl, please explain derogatory? I see no derogatory words here at all.

Please be openminded about this. You can certainly post your work in the WMO forum! And I look forward to seeing it.

Shirl Parker
10-12-2009, 02:12 PM
The word "prejudice" was used in a derogatory manner, that is, implying that my being prejudiced in favor of WMO was a bad thing.

Dana Design
10-12-2009, 02:16 PM
Shirl, I certainly didn't read it that way at all. Let's be friends and put a stop to the sniping. All Marty, Dave and myself want is for WMO to be a successful, welcoming and informative sub-forum for everyone!

judyfilarecki
10-12-2009, 03:09 PM
greywolf: So although I do understand where you are coming from I do believe its a bit harsh to threaten to penalize people for forming a community of peers, at the end of the day any forum should be driven by the needs of the users not a minority group of administrators who believe they know best - in short, you can't control peoples browsing habits any more than you can control their thoughts - and that applies to any forum whether art based or a forum for motorbike enthusiasts.

P.S.
no offense Coutrej but I think you should stay on this forum - simply because a community is only as good as the people who populate it and by leaving you would harm the WM community more than you harm the Administators!

Amen. And to Shirl and HankB also.

Perhaps we should look back to Janet's original request for start WMO and why so many of us voted for it.
Janet; 3/12/09Water Soluble or Water Mixable Oils Sub Forum
I would love Wet Canvas to have a Water Soluble or Water Mixable Oils Sub Forum.

I find that the oil painting sub forum is not a good forum if your working in WS Oils when their are questions regarding them the responses always involve people trying to encourage people to switch to traditional oils. Most people won't add that their painting was done with WS oils as their is a definite bias toward traditional oils in that sub forum. I find it virtually impossible to learn this medium on Wet Canvas due to the fact that it doesn't have a seperate sub forum. I would love to be able to see what people are doing in WS Oils which at this time is not possible.

If help would be needed in this sub forum I would be willing to dedicate some time to it.
__________________
Janet

Janet did not restrict the request to just technical stuff. She wanted to see what others are doing and so do I...and that is why I voted for it.

When the three of you came to oversee the forum, it was your decision to restrict the purpose of the forum, not the people who voted for it or are using it. Perhaps you should be listening to the participants rather than trying to dictate your wishes. Don't ruin a great forum.

Judy

judyfilarecki
10-12-2009, 03:22 PM
Dcore:And you think that its best for those using WMO to be sequestered away and totally ignore all the educational content, information, and members with considerable painting expertise in the main forum?

Just what makes you think that there are not "members with considerable painting expertise" in the WMO forum to share their knowledge?

I'm sure there are quite a few that would be offended by this statement on your part.

Judy

Dana Design
10-12-2009, 03:23 PM
Judy, let's play fair. Had it been up to the mods who resigned over this matter, there wouldn't be a WMO forum. It's Marty, Dave and myself who facilitated putting this forum together. No one else.

This is redredging up old stuff and I'm just not willing to go there anymore. We're not restricting anything! We are, however, not willing to have this be a separate and isolated place within the WC community. I've said that several times already. We are not dictating where you can post or where you cannot post. And it seems that with these constant admonishments against the moderators, it IS ruining this sub-forum.

My humble suggestion is to drop it and get back to the real purpose of the sub-forum and that is learning to paint with WMOs. No one is forcing anyone to visit another forum.

Dana Design
10-12-2009, 03:26 PM
Just what makes you think that there are not "members with considerable painting expertise" in the WMO forum to share their knowledge?

I'm sure there are quite a few that would be offended by this statement on your part.

Judy

Judy, this is clearly nit-picking. Let's stop this once and for all.

Dana Design
10-12-2009, 03:29 PM
I am closing this thread as nothing here is being accomplished and the same things are being said again and again.

I'm sorry it's come to this but I see no other solution.

Please be advised of this rule from the User Agreement:

No Reviving Closed Topics: If a post is edited or a topic closed by a moderator, do not repost the edited material or restart the closed discussion in another thread. Similarly, do not post messages asking why a particular message was edited or a topic closed.