View Full Version : DS vs M.Graham

08-26-2009, 06:44 PM
These are the only two sources I can find for PY110 as a single pigment paint. Daniel Smith's is Perm. Yellow Deep and M Graham's is Indian Yellow. I love the color if the MG paint but it is very staining. The DS website list their version as low staining.

My question: can anyone tell me if the DS paint can be lifted? Or how the two compare color-wise? I have to order from DS soon so need to decide if I should add a tube of Perm. Yellow Deep to the kitty. Thanks~

08-26-2009, 08:11 PM
Lily: I've attached an image of Daniel Smith's Permanent Yellow Deep, PY110 and DS New Gamboge, PY153, a possible alternative for you that perhaps lifts a bit better.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Aug-2009/117478-PY110__PY153_for_WC.jpg

08-26-2009, 09:20 PM
Thanks so much for posting those! I can see that the DS version doesn't match the color of M. Grahams - in fact, PY153 comes a lot closer! It is amazing how much difference there can be from brand to brand even for single pigment paints! Thanks for the info! :wave:

Here is the M. Graham version. I haven't been able to lift it at all without maring the paper.


08-26-2009, 09:44 PM
Even though paints have the same pigment, there can be a big difference in how they look from one manufacturer to another, I don't know the reason why, but it is there.

For example, I have Winsor Newton's New Gamboge (PY 153) and Daniel Smith's New Gamboge (PY 153). I also have Holbein's New Gamboge which is a combo of PY 153 and PY 154. They range from pale (WN), to medium (Holbein) to dark (DS) in tone. In addition, WN and H say it is transparent which DS says it is semi-transparent.

The only Permanent Yellow I have is by Daler Rowney and its number is PY 138, a transparent, fairly liftable yellow.

Interesting discussion.


08-27-2009, 12:35 AM
The differences between brands are due to the milling process, (which determines particle size) and the binders used. MG uses honey and mills their pigments finer. DS and most others use gum arabic. I think the larger particles and gum arabic make for easier lifting.

08-27-2009, 03:54 AM
Wow, that MG PY110 looks a lot like WN cad yellow orange PO20 or benzimida orange, PO62 (both also stainers)! It is lovely, but I can really understand your desire for non- or low stainers. The best PY153 I ever had was LeFranc & Bourgeois' Gallstone -- very warm, very liftable. Alas, it is no longer made. The DS New Gamboge is very useful, though. It would be great to try all versions of PY153 -- it's a gorgeous pigment, my favorite yellow. I thought I would really like the DS PY110, but I never have reason to use it.


08-27-2009, 09:35 PM
I know what you mean about the color differences Sylvia. M. Graham Prussian blue is a lot greener than Holbien's, for instance. I think we all end up having favorites of certain colors across several brands. I mainly buy Holbeins, but have a few WN and DS paints on my palette as well. And now at least one MG. :D

The MG PY110 only looks orange in strong tints. It thins down into a lovely range of warm glowing yellows. The closest thing I can liken it to is yellow food coloring. which looks almost red in the bottle. Or a warmer version of Quin Gold. They behave very much the same. Unfortunately, once it's down it's down. It would be great if you want a really glowing under-glaze.

I remember reading some kind of jedi mind trick for making paints easier to lift, but I was so new to watercolors at the time it didn't really register. I'm going to play with it and see if it can lift it mixed with other paints that won't desaturate it too much, like raw seinna.

I have seen LeFranc on ebay - and there is a "Complete watercolour set" on their website, but have no idea what colors are in it. It sounds lovely though.

08-27-2009, 11:23 PM
Lily: There is W&N lifting preparation (http://www.dickblick.com/products/winsor-and-newton-lifting-preparation/) -- you might try that.

If the LeFranc & Bourgeois is an old set, Gallstone might be there. The new L&B watercolor set is a much smaller selection than they once had. I suspect that, once they lost their distribution in the US, they seemed to wind down. Now they have very little. Pity, as they had an enormous collection of absolutely gorgeous pigments, some of which are now no longer available anywhere, such as PV46 Graphtol Violet, a stunning, lightfast, nonstaining violet.

Marcio C
08-28-2009, 12:10 AM
Hi. The Daler Rowney Indian Yellow (PY153) is very close to the MG PY110; it's transparent and lifts easily.

08-28-2009, 01:11 AM
Thank you! :thumbsup: