PDA

View Full Version : Thicker Paint-How?


impressionist2
07-09-2002, 06:53 AM
This may seem like a stupid question, but there may be more to it than meets the eye. Or not.

I am very stingy with my paint. I can really stretch it. Now, after our recent discussion on "painterliness" I am thinking it's time to get thicker and more generous with my paint. So, other than just piling it on, is there any technique or medium any of you use to make the application of thicker paint a smoother operation?

Looks like I'd better order a bunch of paint tube replacements ahead of time.

Thanks.

Renee

Titanium
07-09-2002, 08:55 AM
Renee,

how do you want to go ?

[1] Vincent Van Gogh thick - Thick all over?

[2] Old Master Thick - in the lights and with an awareness of
the surface of the object your painting, plus single stroke
application ?

[3] Other ?

The thin application of paint is normally for undercoating.
This anticipates, surface variety, in the overcoat and is
normally one stroke and leave it alone. A sense of confidence
and bravery.

Can you visually illustrate what you want to do.
I don't know if words will suffice in this case.
A close-up of a painting you admire ?
Titanium

* Not necessarily a more tubes of paint. You can bulk
using chalk as Rembrandt or Velasquez did.

impressionist2
07-09-2002, 10:13 AM
Titanium wrote: "Can you visually illustrate what you want to do.
I don't know if words will suffice in this case.
A close-up of a painting you admire ?
Titanium "

You also wrote:"You can bulk
using chalk as Rembrandt or Velasquez did."

Hmmmm, sounds interesting. How do you do that?



Titanium, I want to paint this thick, in this style:Christine Lafuente (Phila. school). Renee
(Image originally introduced by Mario in the Ilis thread.)

Titanium
07-09-2002, 12:35 PM
Renee,

the application of thick paint is simple.
Mix it on the palette and just load the brush,
put it down and leave it alone.

With time you will develop a sensitivity to
direction of your stroke, pressure and when to
lift. It is like handwriting, highly individual and
when done with awareness will look visually
attractive.

Badly done it is crude and just messy.

To speed up your development.You could scan
postcards/ photographs at a size you can work
with.Then print on say Fredix canvas pad.

Do as black and white. When dry, just follow
the postcard or other and apply paint.Use a
palette knife to remove what you don't like.
Don't use the brush, no niggling.

Let the ghost left after removal of paint help
you.

Rubens could show you how to use the thick and
thin paint applications to enhance beauty of surface.

Can you find this book -
Oil Painting , pure and simple - Ranson and Chamberlain.

I believe it would help you.
Trevor Chamberlain is a master at Plein Aire.

As to bulkers - Chalk works but you would probably
have to buy the powder from Kremers.

Or look around for commercially made stuff.
I would say Oleopasto, but it's a sister to Liquin.

Looking forward to your new "handwriting".
Titanium

sarkana
07-09-2002, 08:27 PM
here is an impasto recipe given to me by the estimable mr doak:

all measurements approximate

1 part damar varnish
1 part sun oil (stand oil is OK)
1 part beeswax, gently melted

stir all ingredients. allow to cool. use!

this produces a pasty medium, similar to encaustic medium but no heating required. it works wonders even added sparingly to paint from the tube.

it is very matte! decrease the beeswax and increase the damar to alter the shininess.

impressionist2
07-10-2002, 07:25 AM
Thanks Titanium and Sarkana. The experimenting has begun. I am repainting a recent harbor painting with thick loose strokes. If it approaches anything good, I will post it when finished.

The trick with very loose paintings like my above example, is that each color and value has to be totally accurate to work and not make, as Titanium accurately described it, a painting that is crude and messy.

I am in one of those painting downs this week, that always precedes a move for me to a new level. I am hating everything I am painting. This always happens before a breakthrough. Now, practicing this new ( for me) style, I am getting happy again.

Titanium, Thanks so much for all the advice. You spurred me on to give it a try.

Sarkana, I have all the ingredients except the beeswax. Can you explain how you melt the beeswax? What equipment do I need? Thanks.

Renee

cobalt fingers
07-10-2002, 09:08 AM
Yep!

I think pigment and care is the key. Put onto your palette way more than you think you'll need. I prefer pigment to mediums and really find that the wrong use of the wrong (too thin) mediums can be a great way NOT to paint thick. As you know some artists would put oils out onto cardboard to extract the oil from the tube colors in order to paint thicker. Start with lots and try to get as much as possible onto the surface.

timelady
07-10-2002, 03:50 PM
Thick vs. thin is a subject that keeps coming up in my life. I had an interesting conversation with an artist who agreed with me that some people seem to be thin and others thick (with regards to painting!). I'm a thin painter. I looove thick juicy brushstrokes and loads of texture but just can't do it. My brain doesn't put together the painting that way. So after much angst I've decided I'll just have to like other people's paintings and not aspire to them. :) I have found a happy medium (pun intended) where I use some heavy texture paste (acrylic) to build up certain areas - then I can do my usual thin painting over them. Works well for me, and I prefer to keep the texture limited in the composition anyway.

Tina.

Leopoldo1
07-10-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by cobalt fingers
I prefer pigment to mediums and really find that the wrong use of the wrong (too thin) mediums can be a great way NOT to paint thick. As you know some artists would put oils out onto cardboard to extract the oil from the tube colors in order to paint thicker.

I agree with Blue Fingers on using straight pigment with no medium. If the pigments have too much vehicle in them, they will consequently brush on long. Reduce by leeching the excess oil out on paper. Wonderful effects can be rendered with dry brush techniques over heavy pigment. The idea of using straight pigment with no medium will add more luminostiy to your painting, because the pigments have not been diluted. Below is an older painting done with heavy impasto using short pigments..L

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jul-2002/seals3.jpg

cobalt fingers
07-10-2002, 07:07 PM
Leo, I know that painting! Arts in the Parks ? I really like it. I've seen in print and didn't know you were the author. It's very nice.:clap: :cat:


it's Cobalt

(although I do get blue sometimes) fingers

cobalt fingers
07-10-2002, 07:08 PM
little Whale cove or depot Bay area?

Leopoldo1
07-10-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by cobalt fingers
little Whale cove or depot Bay area?

Neither, the Sea Lion Caves. I wish it was in print as you stated in your other post, I could make a buck or two along with the tree business. 3 weeks ago it was put in a gallery in Joseph, Oregon, a recently new area for art along with it's wilderness recreation to tempt the urbanites. A long way from the coast, some 9 hours. We will see what happens, maybe to far inland, and the wrong genre for that area.

Boy Tim, you get around. You must be independently wealthy! I thought you were in Oregon six months ago and then Taos, NM, Europe and now where? BTW, listening to you post here, I have enjoy your knowledge and philosophy about art, and of course your skill!..........L

paintfool
07-10-2002, 07:58 PM
Certainly one of my all time favorite paintings Leo! This is one on which you used iredescents right? One of the easiest and most effective ways to extract excess oil from your paints is to lay them out on rice paper. Rice paper really draws the oil out. You can do this for 10 or 15 minutes and then transfer the paint to your palette. It really works well.

Leopoldo1
07-10-2002, 08:09 PM
Right Cheryl, I will have to try that rice paper. Where did learn that tid-bit?

cobalt fingers
07-10-2002, 08:14 PM
And when you done oiling out the paint on rice paper you can enter the "work" (the rice paper) into modern art shows...I won one that way once!

cobalt fingers
07-10-2002, 08:15 PM
it's sort of double tasking isn't it?

impressionist2
07-10-2002, 08:23 PM
Tim and Leopoldo, Maybe that's the answer. Just oil out on the rice paper and enter it in the next competition! Love it.

Now this thread is picking up steam. Cheryl, that sounds great with the rice paper. Danacolors leech oil right out of their uncapped tubes onto the cardboard wrappers they come in. I am going to try this.

I have been e-mailing Mario trying to get a hookup with Christine Lafuente in NYC. Been practicing her style ( hah) all day today. Her works look so simple and paint so hard. This abstracting shapes is a challenge and then getting that edge blend and bleed-whew!

Renee

Here's Christine's "Strawberries and Spoon"

paintfool
07-10-2002, 10:08 PM
LOL! Yes the paper could be a work in itself if the paints are placed in an interesting order. My nephew has one of my old paint rags framed and hanging in his apartment. It's true! :D I learned that one , Leo, from an old (really old! 92, to be exact) artist friend of mine named Rodger Horton. He'd told me that it was an old habit of his that originated many years ago out of necessity. Apparently the oils of the 40s and 50s were quite oily. Or at least the paints that he used were.
On the issue of adding chalk to the paints, this is something i may be interested in for the piece i'm thinking of doing (abstract). I want a very thick application with some texture to it. I think the chalk may do the trick. My question is about varnishing such a piece. I know that varnish protects the surface and i'm entirely into the habit of doing such but do not want the painting to be shiny. With the texture i'm planning i think it would be distracting. I've never worked with a matte varnish. Anyone have any favorites?

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
This may seem like a stupid question, but there may be more to it than meets the eye. Or not.
I am very stingy with my paint. I can really stretch it. Now, after our recent discussion on "painterliness" I am thinking it's time to get thicker and more generous with my paint. So, other than just piling it on, is there any technique or medium any of you use to make the application of thicker paint a smoother operation?
Looks like I'd better order a bunch of paint tube replacements ahead of time.
Thanks.
Renee

Hi Renee,

I use impasto extensively and also need to save money in oil colour. The best way I found so far to economize without compromising a high level of paint film quality and stability is to use LUKAS MEDIUM 5.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jul-2002/Lukas_5.jpg

1 - IMPASTO EATS PAINT
Impastos may use a lot of expensive paint which increases the cost of producing an impasto work massively.
2 - IMPASTO WRINKLES OR CRACKS
Impastos tend to wrinkle or crack for reasons already explained in previous postings.
3 - WAX AND WAX+OIL MEDIUMS?
Impastos can be made by mixing your paint with bees wax mediums, but this will impart a very matt finish to the work which may not be desirable. Wax alone makes the picture matt and not only that, it can make it look quite dull too. This could be partially avoided by adding stand oil to the wax medium, bringing more elasticity to the paint film, but there is a serious downfall in this solution: In time, the paint film will yellow and also if mixed with highly fat oils such as Viridian or Alizarin Crimson and other Madder lakes, the paint film may be rendered unstable due to an uneven distribution of fat according to the fat-over-lean rule. Another problem with wax mediums is that wax picks dirt and dust which cling on to the paint film. Varnishing wax is not recommended either, for obvious reasons. If necessary to remove the varnish, the solvent will act on the wax making it go slightly softer and the paint film could be ruined.
4 - DESIRABLE PROPERTIES OF "SOUND" IMPASTO
Impasto should retain easily knife marks and be "energetic" in that sense, by adding a 3D element to a typical 2D work surface. It also should retain luminance and natural beauty of oil paint without excess gloss, but be able to reflect light effectively thus rendering the picture more luminous and bright. It should remain very hard but flexible to avoid cracking, it should "capture" light and return it to the viewer in order to show all the beauty of oil colours and the natural luminance of the picture.
5 - IDEAL IMPASTO MEDIUM
It should provide all the above in point 4 plus: Enable an easy transition from knife work to expressive brushwork without the need for a change of medium, but without clogging brush bristles, it should not yellow at all, even with light colours and whites.

I have done a 8 month research into this and the only medium capable of offering all the above good qualities is LUKAS 5.

I have been using the above for impastos for about 2 years now and the qualities are:
-> Retains paint knife work 100%;
-> Extends paint massively without loss of colour;
-> Extends paint without risk of under-pigmentation;
-> Encases pigment particles effectively;
-> Imparts a buttery quality to the paint which is pleasing to work with;
-> It respects the translucency and opacity of the oil colours;
-> Does not impart a yellowish tone to whites and light colours;
-> Does not change the blue

TESTING IMPASTO MEDIUM LUKAS 5
I applied a mix of 2 parts of Lukas 5 to 1 part of W&N Perm. Alizarin Crimson and worked on a piece of paper for oil painting using a standard stainless steel painting knife, leaving the paint film raised enough (about 5mm in certain areas). I painted an area on paper of about 4x6 inches.
Allowed it to dry (it is "soft" touch dry in about 3 days, bone dry in 5 to 6 days, hard dry in 2 weeks approximately) and then shoved the piece of paper in a drawer for 12 months. I marked my MS Outlook for an appointment to remind me on the 1st anniversary.
One year later, I picked it from my drawer. The results are:
1. It did not yellow nor did it dark at all due to absence of light.
2. It remain flexible despite its rather rock hard dry properties. When I folded the paper by the middle of the paint film, the following happened:
A) One third of it folded together with the paper, BUT DID NOT CRACK;
B) Two-thirds of it did not fold, but did not crack either. The paint film remained straight and tough, only it picked the paper surface layer which remained bound to the paint .
The company Dr. Fr. Schoenfeld GmbH from Dusseldorf, tested this medium together with their other oil painting mediums, by placing full scale paintings in a dark room for 20 years (Yes, twenty years!) and the paintings remained as luminous and beautiful as the first day they were placed in the dark room.
Other small tests using impasto work raised from little impasto to very heavy high-rise impasto show this medium won't crack and remain tough, flexible while hard very stable indeed.

APPLICATION RULES
Mix the medium on the palette with your colours either pure or pre-mixed tones at the following rates:
ALL OIL COLOURS: Absolutely any reasonable ratio of medium to oil colour is safe, experiment on the palette prior to application, taking into account desired effects. A couple of hours experimenting with the medium on paper or the palette will give an almost instinctive insight how to work with it, it is actually very "friendly".
FAT OR VERY FAT OIL COLOURS: Here is the only safety rule you MUST follow. Colours such as Van Dyke Brown, Viridian, Alizarin Crimson, Madder Lakes, etc, a rate of 2 parts of medium to 1 part of colour is recommended.

DRYING PROCESS
Any impasto made with LUKAS 5 does not wrinkle. The medium does not allow the paint film create a skin (I can testify to this very clearly! Used it for the last 2 years and it has never let me down!). The impasto dries thoroughly from the inside out and when fully dry, it is flexible but extremely hard (it becomes rock hard) the finish is a soft sheen, just the right balance between gloss and matt, clear, allowing the full beauty of the pigments to show through.
Below are 2 examples where Lukas Medium 5 was used. In paintings where a transition between impasto and flat paint is desirable, the original impasto mix can be thinned down with turpentine to a brushable consistency, thus enabling the painter to keep the painting medium throughout the whole work (a desirable process to keep the paint film very stable).

I hope I have helped you somehow. Lukas Medium 5 is available in large tubes (I use 350 ml. tubes selling in London at around GBP 10,00 sterling, a bloody good rate for an oil manufactured medium of this quality).
Best regards
Luis :)

impressionist2
07-11-2002, 07:10 AM
Luis, This is Fantastic and sounds exactly like what I am seeking.

I hope I can find it in the US because online searches have yeilded no results.

How is Lucas paint? Good?

Below is a detail from Christine's painting which shows the effect I am looking for. It looks like smooth butter that she just spread over the surface with the obvious texture still showing.

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 07:24 AM
Renee,

Lukas in America may be found perhaps here:

http://www.lukasamerica.com/htmlos/start/lukas/lsplash.html

It contains the portal to the American Seaway Artists Supplies Web Store.

Your search did not return results because you wrote the name with a "c" in it instead of a "k"... Silly! :D

Luis :D

PS: I would imagine they stock Lukas mediums, but if that is not the case, they are the retail representative in the USA, they will be able to get it for you, surely.

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by sarkana
here is an impasto recipe given to me by the estimable mr doak:

all measurements approximate

1 part damar varnish
1 part sun oil (stand oil is OK)
1 part beeswax, gently melted

stir all ingredients. allow to cool. use!
this produces a pasty medium, similar to encaustic medium but no heating required. it works wonders even added sparingly to paint from the tube.
it is very matte! decrease the beeswax and increase the damar to alter the shininess.

Sarkana,
This is so funny. I have been dealing with this and other stuff relating to mediums and have recently completed a page in regards to traditional wax mediums. Have a wee look if you wish, at:

http://www.oils-studio.co.uk/portuguese_medium.htm

Needless to say that I have researched the stuff properly and tested manufacture and application of both mediums prior to publication. :cool:

Best regards

Luis :)

impressionist2
07-11-2002, 07:38 AM
Your search did not return results because you wrote the name with a "c" in it instead of a "k"... Silly!

That explains why the "Star Wars" page came up!:D :p :rolleyes: Haha
Renee

Mario just wrote me that Christine is using 50/50 stand oil and turpenoid to get that buttery look. Will have to get the ol' stand oil back out and try it again. The turpenoid is cutting that goopey stand oil mess to get the nice spread.

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Impressionist2:
That explains why the "Star Wars" page came up! Haha

Renee,

Massive ROFL :D :D :D here!!! HA HA HA HA!!! :D :D :D
Oh dear! Better than PROZAC!

Mario just wrote me that Christine is using 50/50 stand oil and turpenoid to get that buttery look. Will have to get the ol' stand oil back out and try it again. The turpenoid is cutting that goopey stand oil mess to get the nice spread.

I have no clue about turpenoid, because I never used it.

Luis :)

Titanium
07-11-2002, 08:29 AM
Renee,

In your response to Luis, the Christine painting
that is so buttery looks like knife work ?

Just off the wall, tried Encaustic ?
Titanium

* You may face two problems with work
applied thickly or with a knife -
[1] Yellowing
[2]Removal of too much oil - cracking.

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 09:17 AM
Titanium,
I never tried encaustic. I am not acquainted with the technique.
Could you be so kind to elaborate a little, please?
Thanks
Luis :)

Titanium
07-11-2002, 10:06 AM
Luis ,

look here - http://www.encaustic.com/

I left one response on their Forum, which
will tell you what I am doing.

As an Abstract Painter, you may find this
wax and pigment medium useful.
With heat it sets immediately.

See also- The Mysterious Fayum Portraits.
Happy exploring.
Titanium

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Titanium
Luis ,

look here - http://www.encaustic.com/

I left one response on their Forum, which
will tell you what I am doing.

As an Abstract Painter, you may find this
wax and pigment medium useful.
With heat it sets immediately.

See also- The Mysterious Fayum Portraits.
Happy exploring.
Titanium

Thanks Titanium... Checking just now!

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 10:30 AM
Couldn't find your post in the Encaustic Art Site,

The whole thing is very interesting indeed, especially for abstract paintings.
I suppose a heat-gun would be better for working on primed panels.
I don't think an iron would do me...
Luis

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by paintfool
LOL! Yes the paper could be a work in itself if the paints are placed in an interesting order. My nephew has one of my old paint rags framed and hanging in his apartment. It's true! :D I learned that one , Leo, from an old (really old! 92, to be exact) artist friend of mine named Rodger Horton. He'd told me that it was an old habit of his that originated many years ago out of necessity. Apparently the oils of the 40s and 50s were quite oily. Or at least the paints that he used were.
On the issue of adding chalk to the paints, this is something i may be interested in for the piece i'm thinking of doing (abstract). I want a very thick application with some texture to it. I think the chalk may do the trick. My question is about varnishing such a piece. I know that varnish protects the surface and i'm entirely into the habit of doing such but do not want the painting to be shiny. With the texture i'm planning i think it would be distracting. I've never worked with a matte varnish. Anyone have any favorites?

Cheryl,
You planning abstracts is good news. I look forward to seeing that when it is finished. :clap:
As for thick application of oils, I certanly do not recommend chalk, because of its too high absorbtion rate which could under-bind the oils seriously. Oil is a binder, excess of oil in oil paints as we have seen in another thread some time ago, is not such a big issue.
I know you have a wealth of experience but would like to recommend LUKAS 5 for impasto work. I posted a comment about it here in this thread.
LUKAS 5 actually gives a 1/2 matt (1/2 gloss - LOL!) finish which is quite nice. Let me remind you about the tests I did with it (see my post here). Doesn't crack, dries from the inside out and when dry, although flexible, it feels as hard as a rock. Ideal for work on panels, but can be safely used on canvases. I have used it for about 5 years, and all paintings done with it look PERFECT! Not one sign of failure, NOT a single crack. OK! Five years is nothing, but it is enough to see how the paint film behaves anyway.
If you still wish to varnish, for protection purposes and such, I would go for a synthetic varnish with micro-crystaline wax suspended. Some manufacturers make this with KETONE resins, which are readily removable with turps for restoration purposes.
I have one such varnish in my cupboard, from Roberson's, but I am sure Winsor & Newton manufacture one as well (they have one of the largest professional varnish ranges I know!)
Best regards
Luis :)

Titanium
07-11-2002, 12:20 PM
Luis,

your supposed to use -

Natural calcite [ CaC03] dry ground -
oil absorption 9.0 gms oil to 100 gms pigment

If you use Precipitated Types - Colloidal
it's 55 gms oil to 100 gms pigment.

Rembrandt and Velasquez would probably
only used Natural.
Today,
Blanc Fixe could be substituted - 6 to 14 gms.

[ Source - Von Fischer - Paint and Varnish Technology. ]
Titanium

For Encaustic.
See the Forum - scroll down to Seepersad

paintfool
07-11-2002, 12:24 PM
I absoutely will try this Luis! Thanks for the info.

Luis Guerreiro
07-11-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by paintfool
I absoutely will try this Luis! Thanks for the info.

Cheryl,
You're welcome. I have no doubts in recommending LUKAS stuff. As a matter of curiosity and because I bothered to investigate them carefully, I am able to tell you that LUKAS manufaturer made a very interesting experiment with their mediums (LUKAS 1, LUKAS 2, LUKAS 3, LUKAS 4, LUKAS 5 and LUKAS 6):
They painted several pictures using their mediums and among the tests they did, was this one... They closed the paintings in a dark room, without no source of light whatsoever, like a bank vault or something. And they forgot about them for 25 years (Yup! I was amazed at this test!). After 25 years, they opened the vault and recovered the pictures to check for darkening and yellowing. Nope! Nothing! The paintings were as clear and fresh as on the day they were finished.
The paintings also had shown no cracks, defects, they were in absolutely pristine condition.
Although I make my own mediums, for large work, it is more practical to use LUKAS, especially in abstract large pictures, because they supply volumes of medium up to 5 Litres cans(that's around 10 pints, I think).
Luis :)

impressionist2
07-11-2002, 07:53 PM
I don't want to post the whole painting till I go back tomorrow and finish it, but the effect I was looking for has been found.

I used one drop of stand oil to a small pile of mixed paint and as Mike Myers says, "It's just like budder"! Spread right on and stayed where I put it.

Yes, Titanium , it has to be spread with a knife. The brush can be used to blend and get into the small spots after it's applied. I love working with the knife so this suits me fine.

Renee

Titanium
07-11-2002, 10:16 PM
Nicely done,
Renee,

will be looking out for tomorrow's
effort.
Titanium

cobalt fingers
07-11-2002, 11:31 PM
Now this is off the point but there's another thread that talks about the temp and color of shadows...Do you see how her shadows are warm? even on the tablecloth and at the edge! and the spoon is light by a cool light?

sorry to get off the point-couldn't resist:evil:

arourapope
07-12-2002, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
I don't want to post the whole painting till I go back tomorrow and finish it, but the effect I was looking for has been found.

I used one drop of stand oil to a small pile of mixed paint and as Mike Myers says, "It's just like budder"! Spread right on and stayed where I put it.

Yes, Titanium , it has to be spread with a knife. The brush can be used to blend and get into the small spots after it's applied. I love working with the knife so this suits me fine.

Renee

Did you use stand oil alone, or did you cut it?

Luis Guerreiro
07-12-2002, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by aurorapope


Did you use stand oil alone, or did you cut it?

I know Stand Oil alone tends to wrinkle, but being just 1 or 2 drops of it, it is possibly ok. I just don't know about fat-over-lean. The use of it alone might make the paint too fat...
Any comments?

impressionist2
07-12-2002, 07:31 AM
Aurora, That is one drop of straight stand oil to a small pile of premixed paint. That's how I got the look.

Today, I will experiment with cutting the oil with turpenoid, which I have on hand. I don't think the paint will plump up as well, though, with a drop or two of turpenoid added. I also have damar varnish available, also, if needed.

Luis wrote:I know Stand Oil alone tends to wrinkle, but being just 1 or 2 drops of it, it is possibly ok.

Luis, How long will it take to know if it will wrinkle? Does that happen right away or are we talking about the long haul? Like after someone buys it and takes it home? :eek:



I just don't know about fat-over-lean. The use of it alone might make the paint too fat...
Any comments?

There is no fat over lean. I work alla prima. It's fat over canvas!:)

Titanium, That was Christine Lafuente's ratio. That's what I will try today.

Okay, how do I cut the oil? I add the turpenoid to the stand oil before I add them to the pile of paint, correct? Or can I just add each one separately to the pile of paint?

Renee

Titanium
07-12-2002, 07:32 AM
Luis,

I believe Renee, mentioned something about
50% solvent , 50 % stand oil.

I mix the stand oil with 2/3 walnut oil to
1/3 stand oil.If you just touch the tip of the
brush to this oil medium, you get enough to
influence the paint, but then I am using
hand mulled paint and it is only pigment,
no fillers.

I can keep the pigment in oil, like toothpaste
in texture.
Brush pressure controls the application, or thick
or thin paint coats, etc.

Using a knife is supposed to have the problem of
bringing the oil to the surface of the paint coat
applied.
Renee, may have to use an absorbent canvas.
She's intelligent, she'll figure it out.
I have faith in her abilities.

Also she may be painting more as alla prima
than layers.
We can always watch and see how her technique
develops.
Titanium

Titanium
07-12-2002, 07:45 AM
Ho ho,
I see Renee was writing at the same time.
Up early everyone ?
Titanium

impressionist2
07-12-2002, 09:38 AM
Titanium, Up with the birds everyday and also a late retirer, so I run on a lot of energy and need little sleep.

I just phoned Christian White, great grandson of architect, Stanford White, and my workshop instructor. His paintings have the look:

http://www.artistsoflongisland.com/galleries/christian_white_fine_art_gallery.htm

If you want to see what Long Island , NY looks like painted, he's the man.

He uses stand oil and damar varnish 50/50 and to that mix, adds three parts of turps.

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-12-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Luis, How long will it take to know if it will wrinkle? Does that happen right away or are we talking about the long haul? Like after someone buys it and takes it home?

Renee,
As far as I know and from what I have read and seen for years, stand oil must be cut with a solvent or a balsam or a varnish of some description (Damar presumably being the best), to prevent wrinkling.
If severe, wrinkling starts immediately after application, while it dries, it forms a skin (if turps is in the mix, it rises through the oil layer to evaporate, helping the oil to dry from the inside out, thus preventing it from wrinkling).
I really don't know in the long term...
Luis

Luis Guerreiro
07-12-2002, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Titanium
Luis,

I believe Renee, mentioned something about
50% solvent , 50 % stand oil.

I mix the stand oil with 2/3 walnut oil to
1/3 stand oil.If you just touch the tip of the
brush to this oil medium, you get enough to
influence the paint, but then I am using
hand mulled paint and it is only pigment,
no fillers.

I can keep the pigment in oil, like toothpaste
in texture.
Brush pressure controls the application, or thick
or thin paint coats, etc.

Using a knife is supposed to have the problem of
bringing the oil to the surface of the paint coat
applied.
Renee, may have to use an absorbent canvas.
She's intelligent, she'll figure it out.
I have faith in her abilities.

Also she may be painting more as alla prima
than layers.
We can always watch and see how her technique
develops.
Titanium

Titanium,
I find your medium quite interesting. I never thought of mixing linseed oil (stand or any other) with Walnut oil. I see from your notes that the percentage of walnut is higher which is logically correct, I think. And no solvent whatsoever as well.
I must say, I have some concerns about using an oil medium without being cut with one the usual suspects (turps, balsam or a soft resin varnish).
Taking into account your description of the painting medium you make, I would say that I like the idea, given the properties of the two oils (stand provides toughness and great elasticity and walnut oil provides fluidity and a buttery feel while painting, helping the paint to be moved around the surface easily).
I only would like to add, if you don't mind me commenting, that I definitely would add some turpentine (double-rectified being the best for this I think) to help the "drying-through" of the paint film.
Luis

PS: I agree! Renee is intelligent and "switched on the spot". I enjoy discussing technical matters though and contribute to the best I can for the common good. :)

Luis Guerreiro
07-12-2002, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Titanium
Ho ho, (...) Up early everyone ?
Titanium

So so... Off work at the moment, stress related (at my other job!...:rolleyes: ). Not good as it is difficult to "switch off" and fall asleep.
Funny enough, art-making even when "frantic" has never made me feel stress-ill... I wonder why...;)
Luis

Luis Guerreiro
07-12-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Titanium, (...) I just phoned Christian White, great grandson of architect, Stanford White, and my workshop instructor. His paintings have the look (...) He uses stand oil and damar varnish 50/50 and to that mix, adds three parts of turps.
Renee

Ah! Sorry Guys... I just noticed the above, was the last post and I started replying before reading it...
Yes! The above combination makes a lot of sense to me. Stand Oil needs cut with something:
1. Turpentine
2. A balsam (Venice Larch, Strasbourg Fir or Canada Balsam)
3. A varnish (such as Damar)
I suppose one at least, or a combination of some description makes the process of using stand oil a lor safer.
This obviously, just reflects my humble opinion, of course.
I still like the idea of mixing stand oil with walnut oil. Don't know if there is significant yellowing effet with time, I would imagine not, as walnut oil doesn't tend to yellow that much.
Luis

Titanium
07-12-2002, 12:08 PM
Luis,

you will need to write this on your eye lids for ready
reference when I write about an oil medium.

[1] I use a Zn0/ Ti02 white - the zinc oxide holds the
coat open and helps the drying [ drawback possible
brittle coat ]. The mulling oil here has 5% Stand oil
to counter for brittleness [ effect only lasts as long
as the stand oil remains young and flexible ]
Slow drying is preferred for me.

[2] Paint is hand mulled to toothpaste stage.
So a bit more oil is okay.

[3]My canvas is always a little absorbent.

[4]Bristle brush pressure is used to keep the
coat thin and textureless.I eat bristles for
lunch,which is why Eterna cheapo's are my
main stays.

[5]Medium is used only in the overcoat.
Because from what I stated before the undercoat
is always a little absorbent.

[6] I make my choices using my Cartoon and Colour
Studies.

[7] The overcoat is my true colour coat.
The undercoat uses a low oil white mix and
opaque colours - Mars Yellow light, Mars red
cold and Iron Oxide Blue.

[8] Overcoat is bright Yellow, Red and Blue.
With oil medium added.
Can also be opaque pigments as the addition
of medium can also bring on - transparency
on canvas.
[ Testing Blanc Fixe in stand oil/walnut oil mix
to see if this will satisfactorily do the job as
well. I am curious ]

You must have run out of eye lid space by now.
Chuckle.

I don't need solvent as the Zinc oxide is doing the
work [ a Lead White user would get Through Drying
from the lead compounds formed ].
I wipe my brushes clean on a rag and if I need to
work in a delicate pale shade, wash the brush in
walnut or sunflower oil. Running the bristle over
a coiled titanium wire sitting in the jar holding the
oil.

I can still use resin if I wanted to, but the Refractive
Index of Stand Oil is just a huh away from Resin.
And as little as 10% Stand Oil will high gloss an oil
medium and then your paint.

You can wake up now.
Titanium

impressionist2
07-12-2002, 01:52 PM
Luis and Titanium, I love all the info you guys impart. Our own wet canvas chemists!

Okay, here's my attempt. It's the same location in Cold Spring harbor, NY, and I will post the painting prior to this at the same location so you can see the change in style.

I simplified the buildings and lights as much as I could. I love this new way of painting.

This was stand oil and turpenoid 50/50 like Christine Lafuente uses. Btw, she lost her dad on 9/11 and still travels into NYC everyday.

Renee

First, the old style

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Jul-2002/Widowswatch4.JPG

And, the new style with the plumped up paint

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Jul-2002/Widowstandoil7.jpg

Titanium
07-12-2002, 02:11 PM
IMPRESSIVE !!!:clap: :clap:

When you have some spare time, might
you do a Demonstration from white canvas
up ?

Let me know how long it takes to dry.
Please.

IMPRESSIVE!!!
Titanium

Luis Guerreiro
07-12-2002, 06:46 PM
Titanium,

you will need to write this on your eye lids for ready

LOL :D LOL

I know, I know... I did read your post and it was clear to me. I think it is perfectly sound. Didn't I say exactly that?! ;)

Luis :)

Luis Guerreiro
07-12-2002, 06:50 PM
Impressionist 2,

Those 2 pictures are delightful. I am especially impressed with the new style (2nd painting).
I absolutely love those paint relief marks making it look lively and fresh.
I agree with Titanium. When you have time, a demo would be very interesting.
Luis :clap:

Titanium
07-12-2002, 07:06 PM
Luis said -
I know, I know... I did read your post and it was clear to me. I think it is perfectly sound. Didn't I say exactly that?!


Luis in an earlier post said -

I only would like to add, if you don't mind me commenting, that I definitely would add some turpentine (double-rectified being the best for this I think) to help the "drying-through" of the paint film.

I was responding to this and showing why I didn't need turpentine. Unfortunately, it required a tediously long response.
Thanks for reading through.
Titanium

impressionist2
07-12-2002, 07:54 PM
Luis and Titanium, Thanks very much. Whew.

Sometimes you think you are making progress, but it always helps to have other artist's input.

I will do a thread soon from a blank canvas. Another one I am working on right now is already started, but next time, I promise.

Boy, am I glad I asked you all, about how to get thicker paint! What a wealth of information you have provided. Thank you so much.

Renee

Phyllis Rennie
07-12-2002, 08:01 PM
Renee, Is the second one painted entirely with a knife?

arourapope
07-12-2002, 08:45 PM
I feel dumb, but I don't get it. LOL!
I can see how stand oil added to the undiluted paint would work to add a medium without thinning the paint. May try that myself in fact, as I've been painting with a knife and getting pretty impasto (haven't seen any cracking or anything, though. When's that supposed to happen?)
But if you mix diluted stand oil (diluted with turps.... I also heard turpenoid was a big no-no?), doesn't that make the paint too thin to use as an impasto? I used to mix stand oil and turps for glaze-type layers.....
Next question~ If it's only a couple of drops of stand oil per gob of paint, is that enough medium to really make a difference in the longevity of the painting?
All that being said, the new work you're doing is lovely. Aren't you having fun? Ever since I picked up the knife, painting seems to be all I can think about or do. It's a whole new exciting world, isn't it? :clap: :clap: :clap: :p :D
Aurora

impressionist2
07-12-2002, 09:01 PM
Phyllis, I work 8" x 10" on most paintings. They sell the best for me and the gallery show is in three weeks. Hope these dry in time- would like to put them in.

So........the sky and the sand were done with a couple of big sweeps of the knife. The sand took about four or five sweeps. The house and the trees, bushes and details in the sand were done with a large kolinsky sable after picking up the plumped up paint with the edge of the knife. I catch some of the paint onto the tip of the brush and apply.

Aurora,
You wrote: "if you mix diluted stand oil (diluted with turps.... I also heard turpenoid was a big no-no?), doesn't that make the paint too thin to use as an impasto? "

Nope. The drop of stand oil is a thick blob. One or two drops of turpenoid ( I love it cause there's no smell. What's the objection to it? I haven't heard any.) does not break it down that much. It's still a thick medium even after cutting it.

and......."If it's only a couple of drops of stand oil per gob of paint, is that enough medium to really make a difference in the longevity of the painting?"

Aurora, how do you mean that? Do you mean will the texture hold it's shape? I don't see any reason for it not to. Right now I am just watching for Luis' warning of wrinkling.


"All that being said, the new work you're doing is lovely. Aren't you having fun? Ever since I picked up the knife, painting seems to be all I can think about or do. It's a whole new exciting world, isn't it?
Aurora"

Thanks so much. As far as having fun, it's the absolute Best!! What a lush new way of painting. Kind of makes you want to just do nothing else all day. Plus, I am painting longer hours and even at times I used to take a break. Renee

arourapope
07-13-2002, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Aurora,
You wrote: "if you mix diluted stand oil (diluted with turps.... I also heard turpenoid was a big no-no?), doesn't that make the paint too thin to use as an impasto? "

Nope. The drop of stand oil is a thick blob. One or two drops of turpenoid ( I love it cause there's no smell. What's the objection to it? I haven't heard any.) does not break it down that much. It's still a thick medium even after cutting it.

and......."If it's only a couple of drops of stand oil per gob of paint, is that enough medium to really make a difference in the longevity of the painting?"

Aurora, how do you mean that? Do you mean will the texture hold it's shape? I don't see any reason for it not to. Right now I am just watching for Luis' warning of wrinkling.


"All that being said, the new work you're doing is lovely. Aren't you having fun? Ever since I picked up the knife, painting seems to be all I can think about or do. It's a whole new exciting world, isn't it?
Aurora"

Thanks so much. As far as having fun, it's the absolute Best!! What a lush new way of painting. Kind of makes you want to just do nothing else all day. Plus, I am painting longer hours and even at times I used to take a break. Renee

Hey!
I'm so glad you're infected too. Heheheheheheh.....I'm practically crazed.
With the turpenoid, I mean that it's not meant to be used as a painting medium (I'm talking the green can, though....I understand there's another kind that I don't get down here? So I may not have any idea what I'm talking about) But the stuff in the green can doesn't dry well. I had an underpainting done in burnt umber and turpenoid take two years to dry enough to paint on.
I was wondering about the amount of stand oil because I'd heard that straight paint used as impasto (like I'm using it) is questionable. That's why I wondered if such a small amount of medium made enough of a difference (being that I don't know diddly squat about chemistry.) I've just been using it straight from the tube. I hear it's going to crack; I haven't seen it do that yet, so I'm wondering at what point it's supposed to.
It's exciting to find someone else who's reveling in "butter" right now. !!!!!!!!
PAINT ON!
Aurora

Wayne Gaudon
07-13-2002, 07:47 AM
Hi Renee .. like your new found use for the knife .. though you had given it up a while back but we all face those moments where we feel like we're losing the battle .. seems you have won yours.

Here is my example of thick paint .. I don't spread it as you do but the texture is what you are after.

Winton with a few drops of Black Oil added to each color (a little more for bigger portions). Haven't used this before but it sure makes things buttery and it will help with drying time as the oil has a lead content.

If interested, the painting is here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49986)

llis
07-13-2002, 09:55 AM
Would some of you send me some money for some printer ink? This thread alone has so much good information in it until my printer went berserk.

Don't y'all feel like it's so great to have one on one contact with such wonderful artists and educators? Can't thank everyone enough for all the information and BTW, Renee.... your painting ...before and after... are all wonderful!

I like using the knife as well. :cat:

Titanium
07-13-2002, 10:26 AM
Aurora,
simply put - your paint should be just -

Pigment and Oil .

Most commercial paint is -
pigment , oil , filler [ thickener at times ] and other stuff.

The extra ingredients in commercial paint often counteracts the
addition of small % of stand oil , sun -thickened oil - resins
or balsams.
So you have to use more than a small % and end up with thin
paint [ little pigment , poor covering power ] and weaker coats
in the dried paint.

Try R.Doak's paint and I understand from another Wet Canvas
mailer - Williamsburg Paints.
These are supposed to be just pigment and oil.
I only have experience with one of Mr.Doak's paints - Blue Ochre and it works well.
Titanium.

{ we now await Renee's drying results]

Aurora asked -

I was wondering about the amount of stand oil because I'd heard that straight paint used as impasto (like I'm using it) is questionable. That's why I wondered if such a small amount of medium made enough of a difference (being that I don't know diddly squat about chemistry.) I've just been using it straight from the tube. I hear it's going to crack; I haven't seen it do that yet, so I'm wondering at what point it's supposed to.

Luis Guerreiro
07-13-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Aurora, how do you mean that? Do you mean will the texture hold it's shape? I don't see any reason for it not to. Right now I am just watching for Luis' warning of wrinkling.
Renee

Renee,

Stand-Oil is not the most adequate oil for impasto work and to keep paint thick. It can be used in a small amount, a very small amount. It tends to flat out into an "enamel-like" surface, despite the fact it is a thick oil. But being thick as it is, it doesn't hold any shape when mixed with oil colours.
For knife work, you're looking at stuff like what was above posted in regards to LUKAS 5 mediums and Bees Wax pastes, because you want to hold the shape but also extend the paint a bit.
Stand oil is an ingredient that comes into certain recipes, it holds a place as such, but for impasto work, I really don't think it is the best option. I mean, it is really overwhealmingly rich and fat.

impressionist2
07-14-2002, 08:10 AM
Luis, I am hoping my "one drop" method mixed with an equal amount of turpenoid, like Christine lafuente, will do the trick. Her paintings with that combo have been around for quite a while, with no problems, so I think that will work fine.

Titanium, Two days drying-no wrinkling and high sheen. I won't need to varnish this one! The paint has stayed where, and as high, as I put it. I always use Danacolors, which have changed their name to Classic Artist Oils. This paint is expensive and may, or may not, have made a difference in my results.

Ilis, you wrote: "Don't y'all feel like it's so great to have one on one contact with such wonderful artists and educators?"

Yes, indeed, Ilis. Where else can one artist find such an incredible wealth of information, education and fun, all rolled into one community?

Wayne, Your results look very similiar to mine. I am going to do a search on the black oil, which I remember being discussed at length in another thread here. Thanks.
Your painting is just Wonderful, btw.

Renee

Titanium
07-14-2002, 09:09 AM
Renee,

yes, I am getting the same effect as you.Pictures
with sheen.The painting -TIME - that I did last
year is still glossy this year.I am thinking this is
the Rubens effect.

What you should test is the minimum amount of
the - drop - your using to see how much is really
needed.
[try also more solvent less stand oil , define your
usable limits]

Remember stand oil strengthens your coat.Resin
weakens it.

Black oil contains lead oxide, so if you use it, respect
it.
Best to you.
Titanium

Wayne Gaudon
07-14-2002, 09:44 AM
Black oil contains lead oxide, so if you use it, respect

Good advice.
It's only harmful if ingested so follow a few simple rules and you should be in the zone. Don't eat or drink while painting. Keep brushes and hands out of your mouth. Wash when done. Keep it out of reach of children. The amount of lead is minimal but it is lead.

Renee .. thank you.

impressionist2
07-14-2002, 03:57 PM
Titanium wrote, : "What you should test is the minimum amount of
the - drop - your using to see how much is really
needed.
[try also more solvent less stand oil , define your
usable limits] "

A word to the wise for anyone trying this. I just had to lightly touch the surface this am to see if it was tacking up. It was.

However, and thank goodness this was the tiniest touch, the paint had formed a skin, like the pudding variety and when I touched it, it moved and stayed in that position. It took my finest kolinsky handled so gently to bring it back to it's orginal position. So, take care and do not touch the surface for a week.


Then Titanium wrote: "Remember stand oil strengthens your coat. Resin
weakens it."

What is resin? Is that the turpenoid?


Aurora wrote:It's exciting to find someone else who's reveling in "butter" right now. !!!!!!!!
PAINT ON!

Aurora, It can't just be the two of us. This could be the next art movement. The Butterists. :) aka Butterism


Renee

Titanium
07-14-2002, 05:43 PM
Renee asked -What is resin? Is that the turpenoid?

Resin was mentioned just in case you decided to try
adding in Dammar varnish, which is a resin.
______________________________

Silliness Begins -

As to Butterism,I will branch off into clarified butter perhaps
using the name - GHEE

So the original movement will be known as Butterism and
with the sub-movement Gheeism.
[ I had better not make these jokes, how do you think
P.R.B came about - ha ha ha - and what people suggested
it might mean.]

I can see it now - year 2070 and Art Historians are reflecting on
the birth of Butterism.
Where painters celebrating Naturalism, following the rebel
Renee threw away their paintbrushes for Painting Knives in
celebration of Sunlight and clean air.
The movement suffered fatalities when too many members
spread the paint on their wholewheat bread.

Fortunately, examples of their work can be seen in the National
Galleries [ Washington DC and London ] [ it was a large worldwide movement ].
[ Paintfool is going to get me for all this silliness]

Long Live Butterism.
Titanium [ of Gheeism fame ]

arourapope
07-14-2002, 06:07 PM
Makes perfect sense to me! ROFLMAO!

impressionist2
07-14-2002, 06:58 PM
The Butterists

An early twenty-first century group of innovative artists, that believed food and/or paint that looked like food, was a worthy pursuit in forming the next great art movement. Rejecting the idea that surfaces that may inspire someone to actually inhale or injest the paint, are not worthy of consideration, the Butterists forged on believing that if it's good enough for the kitchen, it's good enough for the canvas.

Laughed at and ridiculed throughout the next twenty years, shunned from the national art competitions, and in general, excluded from the annual Betty Crocker Bake-offs, the Butterists held true to their motto, "If it Spreads, then it's Meritorius".

Finally in the mid twenty-first century, after all the original Butterist founders had passed, someone at Southebys, feeling quite hungry, accidently ate one of the small Butterist canvases, thereby proving that the Butterists indeed were Master of the Sleight of Knife. A Butterist painting recently sold at auction for 3.5 million dollars.






Author Renee, with deepest apologies for digressing, to paintfool

Luis Guerreiro
07-14-2002, 07:34 PM
A word to the wise for anyone trying this. I just had to lightly touch the surface this am to see if it was tacking up. It was. However, and thank goodness this was the tiniest touch, the paint had formed a skin, like the pudding variety and when I touched it, it moved and stayed in that position. It took my finest kolinsky handled so gently to bring it back to it's orginal position. So, take care and do not touch the surface for a week.


I DID advise not to use stand oil on its own, even the smallest drop WILL form a skin. Now let me guess, when you touched it it moved and form a wrinkle! Right? I know I am right because I tested stand oil for over 11 months in many ways.

I'll say it again, this time I won't speak Mandarin. I'll speak plain English :D : Do not use stand oil unless IT IS CUT in the correct proportions with turpentine AND a balsam (Venice Larch Turpentine, Strasbourg Turpentine or Canada Balsam) OR a soft resin (such as Mastic or Damar)!!!
Stand oil on its own, even it the tiniest amount forms a skin.
The forming of a skin IS NOT DESIRABLE in sound oil painting. The skin dries but the oil underneath remains soft, for a long time, even years.

What IS DESIRABLE is to have a paint film that dries FROM THE INSIDE OUT and THOROUGHLY! That means a HARD YET FLEXIBLE paint film = Sound Oil Painting = Permanent Oil Painting.

If in doubt, please read the whole thread to make sure.

Luis :)

Titanium
07-14-2002, 08:44 PM
Luis,

take it easy. Renee is doing the experimenting.
Your just going to make her nervous.
She has to find her own way.

If it wrinkles she will have to try again with
less stand oil, but she is in control.

We can only offer advice.Try not to forget
that please.
Titanium

Luis Guerreiro
07-14-2002, 09:15 PM
Titanium,

I am absolutely sure Renee knows me well enough to know I mean well. I hope she knows I mean well.
If it is a test, it shouldn't be put on a painting, because results may not stand up to expectations on how a particular medium combination will work.
For tests, better use glass slabs, pre-manufactured paper for oils, etc.
I am worried now about Renee's picture... It's not just the stand oil, it's also that Turpenoid thing.
I'm a modern painter, but I trust the lessons from the past. Until there is enough evidence about Turpenoid being good, I'd advise people not to trust it.
The main purpose of so much experimentation is permanency, I hope.
Luis :)

Phyllis Rennie
07-14-2002, 09:32 PM
I just started (four plein air paintings) using this mixture. I'm not completely used to the handling characteristics yet but I do like it. Any comments or advise will be appreciated.

2 parts turpentine
2 parts stand oil
1 part canadian balsaam
1/2 part wax medium

It's buttery, stays where you put it, and dries to a soft sheen. More wax medium will make it a bit thicker but also gives a matte finish.

impressionist2
07-14-2002, 09:33 PM
Luis, Yes, not to worry. I am listening to all the advice and Titanium is correct, that I intend to try all the methods suggested.
I understand what you are saying about the skin, and I am going to report the progress on the drying on this one and the others.

Next one up will have the resin added to the mix.

I am going to e-mail Christine soon and see what she has to say about the turpenoid she uses.


Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-15-2002, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Phyllis Rennie
I just started (four plein air paintings) using this mixture. I'm not completely used to the handling characteristics yet but I do like it. Any comments or advise will be appreciated.

2 parts turpentine
2 parts stand oil
1 part canadian balsaam
1/2 part wax medium

It's buttery, stays where you put it, and dries to a soft sheen. More wax medium will make it a bit thicker but also gives a matte finish.

Phyllis,

I believe your choice of medium is correct. As a rule of thumb, stand-oil should be cut in at least a 50/50 ratio. The medium above is very high fat, but that possibly isn't so much of a problem as I assume you paint alla prima as it is the case for most outdoor painting.
Generally, oils thickened by either a boiling or a sun-bleaching process (or any method of cooking the oil) are very high in fat, hence the need to thin them down, that is, reduce their fat content down to a suitable ratio for artistic oil painting.
-----------------------------------------
STAND-OIL, WHAT IS IT?

Let us look at Stand-Oil for a moment. It is linseed oil, which has been boiled in a vacuum oxygen free atmosphere (the presence of carbolic acid in the oil is arguable, in my view). The boiling process reduces the oil to a degree of thickness/consistency by a measured method called "POISE", an industrial viscosity measurement standard scale, used in many industries, such as oils, glass and crystal, plastics, etc.
Today, the stand-oil that is more likely to be made available to artists has been boiled down to a POISE 40 degrees (running honey consistency) or POISE 60 degrees (thick honey like). For most purposes I think the best rate is POISE 40 degrees.
The important point to retain in regards to application in oil painting is that the oil has indeed been boiled in the absence of oxygen (oxygen being obviously the factor that causes the oil to polymerise, that is, change from a liquid oil into a completely different material when dry).
So when the painter applies stand oil, it still needs to dry entirely using oxygen, but because it is very thick and fat, it takes a long time to dry and if used alone, it wrinkles. The wrinkling isn't anything abnormal. The oil is high in fat and very thick, the surface of the paint film gets in contact with oxygen in the atmosphere first so that starts drying, creating a dry layer of polymerised oil, but underneath the oil is still in its original viscous state. The reason is obvious: is the first layer in contact with oxygen dries quicker and forms a skin, how is oxygen going to get into underneath that skin to make the oil dry?!...
This is the problem.
Now you ask: Right! This is a pain in the neck! Why should we use stand-oil then?!...
Two main and very valid reasons:

- 1 -

As a substitute for a much better choice of artists oil, very difficult to obtain: Sun-Thickened Oil (also known as Sun-Bleached Oil). This oil has been partially polymerised by action of the Sun thus becoming thick and viscous. The oil of choice for many masters of past centuries, but manufacturers in general do not supply it. Easy to make your own though, if you live in hot sunny areas.

- 2 -

Resistance. Stand Oil is astronomically resistant and elastic, thus imparting a desirable quality to the painting. Dries high gloss, flats out completely so the oil paint film is smooth (no brush marks), shiny and brilliant as an enamel finished jewel. Stand Oil is also used in outdoors applications such as house painting and boat painting, precisely because of its amazing weather resistant qualities.

So, back to the drying problems of stand oil. We have seen how wrinkling happens and why.
Now let's see how the avoid the problem. Stand oil needs something that passes through its molecules into the atmosphere, the process opens the molecules, allowing oxygen to intermix with in them thus allowing the whole oil film to dry FROM THE INSIDE OUT.
The materials that allow this to happen are volatile oils, balsams and resins:

1- Turpentine
2- Mineral spirits (but not for artists oil painting, turpentine is best)
3- Balsams (Venice Larch Turpentine, Strasbourg Fir Turpentine and Canada Balsam)
4- Natural Soft Resins (Damar and Mastic the best known)
5- Natural Hard Resins (Copal and Amber, but one is taken for the other most of the time, as Amber is difficult to find and to use)
6- Synthetic resins (Ketone and others, such as Alkyds, sometimes already dissolved in varnishes of variegated descriptions)

All these surface through the oil to some extent, that is their volatile components do, evaporating into the atmosphere. They force the oil molecules to open. The basic process put in simple terms is somewhat like this:
A) The volatile components evaporate
B) The resinous components fuse with the oil
C) The resulting final film hardens

The academic Max Doerner says in regards to Stand Oil, the following:

"For artists' purposes, Stand Oil can be used only as an addition to media or when very much thinned, because otherwise it would be too fat."

Media mixed with stand oil should therefore be used in the last upper layers of the painting, never throughout it, unless of course, turpentine is used to thin the medium considerably from onset and then progressively reduced, thus increasing the % of fat in the medium. This is reasonably easy to do, as the rule is to check the viscosity of the medium. The less viscous, the less fat.

Other additions such as bees wax are viable, but one must keep in mind that they increase the fat content, so when adding bees wax take that into account.

Luis :)

Titanium
07-15-2002, 07:56 AM
Stand oil is supposed to dry by polymerisation,
GELLING action.It is because it uses less oxygen
that it is lower in yellowing, when the film is young.
Only 5 to 10 % is needed to strengthen the
coat.

Not much more can be discussed until Renee's
painting is dried.
Titanium

impressionist2
07-15-2002, 09:35 AM
Luis, Thanks so much for the thorough explanation. I got a lot out of it.

You wrote:Stand Oil is astronomically resistant and elastic, thus imparting a desirable quality to the painting. Dries high gloss, flats out completely so the oil paint film is smooth (no brush marks), shiny and brilliant as an enamel finished jewel.

This is exactly how my painting now looks on it's third day of drying. It looks wonderful.


Then you wrote: "So, back to the drying problems of stand oil. We have seen how wrinkling happens and why."

SO.................When, How Long, is it going to take for the wrinkling to start? Is it only a problem if someone touches the painting? You did these tests, so you know the answers to these questions, Luis. Plus I bet your ratio of stand oil to paint in your test was way higher than mine. Mine is like 1/20th.

How long did your test with just stand oil take to dry to the touch with no wrinkling? My painting is starting to tack up now on the third day. Can't touch it yet, just on the edges.

Remember only the sky was painted with the one drop of stand oil. The bottom half of the painting was cut with turpenoid, which is what lafuente uses.

What exactly is the problem with turpenoid?

Phyllis, I take it you are combining these ingredients in the studio and carrying them mixed to the field? What kind of leakproof bottle are you using?

Thanks ,

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-15-2002, 11:56 AM
Hi Renee,
Here are the answers.

You wrote:Stand Oil is astronomically resistant and elastic, thus imparting a desirable quality to the painting. Dries high gloss, flats out completely so the oil paint film is smooth (no brush marks), shiny and brilliant as an enamel finished jewel. This is exactly how my painting now looks on it's third day of drying. It looks wonderful.

Glad to hear it. I trust my tests are correct. Do not touch it Wait another 3 or 4 days, then test a little corner to see how it is going. I recommend you to allow the oil film become "BONE DRY", not just "touch dry". The reason for this caution is that there is a "pick up" effect upon it when it's only touch dry. Underneath it is too soft, if you paint on the skin, it is tacky so the brush tends to blemish it and pick up the paint film, causing an imperfection which will be very visible, given the smooth enamel shiny quality of the paint film. :p

SO.................When, How Long, is it going to take for the wrinkling to start? Is it only a problem if someone touches the painting? You did these tests, so you know the answers to these questions, Luis. Plus I bet your ratio of stand oil to paint in your test was way higher than mine. Mine is like 1/20th.

Wrinkling is associated with the drying process. When it starts drying, the oil increases in volume as its molecules react with oxygen, that reaction rises the temperature of the oil film (hence the hazardous self-igniting the rags soaked in oil left unattended, for example). Because it heats and expands, it stretches the skin that meanwhile started forming. THEN, it subsides gradually as it hardens underneath the skin, there starts the wrinkling, if too much stand oil was used. So usually the wrinkling starts when the oil underneath starts drying and loosing volume.
The tests were carried out over a long period, starting with pure oil, then adding percentages of turpentine, percentages of balsams and finally percentages of resins, firstly on their own, then combined.

As a rule of thumb, combined with turpentine and balsams or turpentine and resins, the ratios of Stand-Oil MUST be mantained to the following safety values:
(all other ingredients are considered as Turpentine+resins OR Turpentine+balsams and these 2 with Bees Wax).

1 part Stand Oil to 9 parts of all other ingredients OR ->LEAN
1 part Stand Oil to 8 parts of all other ingredients OR
1 part Stand Oil to 7 parts of all other ingredients OR
1 part Stand Oil to 6 parts of all other ingredients OR
1 part Stand Oil to 5 parts of all other ingredients OR
1 part Stand Oil to 4 parts of all other ingredients OR
1 part Stand Oil to 3 parts of all other ingredients OR
1 part Stand Oil to 2 parts of all other ingredients OR -> FAT

The notes on LEAN and FAT mean just stand oil content. Bees wax make it more fat, for example. Also, the smaller the amount of all other ingredients, the more sparing you have to be when you mix the medium with your oil paints.

DRYING TIMES:

Stand Oil alone, painted thinly = 3 days
Stand Oil alone, painted thickly = 25 days
Stand Oil mixed in a LEAN medium = 1 day/tacky; 3 days dry; 6 days bone dry.
Stand Oil mixed in a FAT medium = 3 days/tacky; 8 days dry; 15 days bone dry.

Remember though that drying times vary enormously, depending on climate and atmospheric conditions, temperature, the oil content in tube oil paints, the quality of any given batch of balsams and/or resins. The above drying rates are valid however, as a general guide.

As for TURPENOID, I cannot issue a public and valid comment on it, because I don't use it and never tested it. The only comment I am happy to issue about TURPENOID is:

Stick to what we historically know as SAFE AND SOUND OIL PAINTING. If the painting is more than a study, more than a test, more than an exercise of any description, that is, if the painting is FOR SALE or INTENDED AS PERMANENT AND PROFESSIONALLY MADE, then:

1 - Use Pure Gum Turpentine or Double Rectified Turpentine;
2 - Use Oil Spike of Lavender Oil to cut the smell if necessary (up to 2%, more than this delays the evaporation process of the solvent too much). Oil of Spike Lavender is very aromatic and pleasing, cuts the smell of turpentine effectively. Don't use Oil Spike of Lavender on its own for oil painting, its powerful solvent action dissolves the paint layer you are painting on. Use it ONLY as an aromatic additive mixed in the Turpentine, up to 2%, enough to cut the smell. It also makes painting too slippery if used too much.
3 - Do not use mineral spirits for anything else other than brush rinsing. Used in painting, mineral spirits evaporate slower than turpentine and due to chemical composition (crude oil derivatives), they do not react with all the other traditional ingredients in the same way.
4 - NEVER EVER EVER use smell-free mineral spirits. You cannot smell its vapours, but they are present and are harmful, more than turpentine vapours.

When mixing your medium, you can use a LEAD OXIDE drier safely. I recommend LeFranc & Bourgeois White Courtrai Drier or Brown Courtrai Drier, for details on these, check on my site: http://www.oils-studio.co.uk/driers.htm and/or run a search under their names. There was an interesting discussion about them on a thread under the title of "By popular demand".

Lead oxide driers ensure the drying of oil paint films FROM THE INSIDE OUT, which IS what we want. My site and the above thread give all necessary details to use Lead driers safely. All precautions apply here in regards to handling LEAD based products.

Luis :)

Phyllis Rennie
07-15-2002, 08:58 PM
Thank you, Luis. Very informative answer. I have one question and I think I know the answer already but would appreciate your advise.

In the past---when I was painting with no medium----I would scrape my palette before packing up to go home and put the leftover paint into a small plastic container. Then I would thin it with turp and use it to tone my canvas. I'm thinking that with this medium mixed into the paint that it's probably now too fat to use for that purpose. ??????

Renee, yes I mix it in the studio before I go out. I put it in my sample plastic jar--the ones that you paid 25 cents for and when I called the next day they were up to 50 cents. She did send me a free sample though! But I have a plastic clip on palette cup with a screw on lid and I think that I'll use that in the future as it's a bit smaller and I'm accustomed to having it clipped to the upper corner of my palette. I get them at ACMoore locally.

Wayne Gaudon
07-15-2002, 09:52 PM
Luis .. while you are on the ball I may as well roll you a question as well. Please, if you have the time.

Using Black Oil, the paint is supposed to dry from the inside out which means when it is touch dry it should be real close to fully dry. Is that a correct assumption on my part and if so, would you happen to know a basic ball park drying time for a painting using Black Oil? I painted one 3 days ago and I can see places where it is close to touch dry and other places where it is not .. that could be the result of the different drying times of different pigments of the fact that I allotted 7 or 8 drops for a large plop and 3 to 4 for smaller plops of paint. Is there a measurement I can use to get a close balance .. I am using Winton 200 ml tubes so I would figure I used about 4 drops per inch .. any advice or help on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Wayne

Luis Guerreiro
07-16-2002, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Phyllis Rennie
Thank you, Luis. Very informative answer. I have one question and I think I know the answer already but would appreciate your advise.

In the past---when I was painting with no medium----I would scrape my palette before packing up to go home and put the leftover paint into a small plastic container. Then I would thin it with turp and use it to tone my canvas. I'm thinking that with this medium mixed into the paint that it's probably now too fat to use for that purpose? (...)

Correct! It would be too fat used for a first layer, at the level left over from the previous painting - last layer (or if alla prima).
Quite simply thin it again with turpentine so you have roughly up to 10% fat medium diluted in 90% turpentine. If the medium you prepared contains bees wax, discard it. Bees wax could impair adhesiveness when you paint your layers on top, or alla prima layer.
Luis :)

Luis Guerreiro
07-16-2002, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by Wayne Gaudon
Luis .. while you are on the ball I may as well roll you a question as well. Please, if you have the time.

Using Black Oil, the paint is supposed to dry from the inside out which means when it is touch dry it should be real close to fully dry. Is that a correct assumption on my part and if so, would you happen to know a basic ball park drying time for a painting using Black Oil? I painted one 3 days ago and I can see places where it is close to touch dry and other places where it is not .. that could be the result of the different drying times of different pigments of the fact that I allotted 7 or 8 drops for a large plop and 3 to 4 for smaller plops of paint. Is there a measurement I can use to get a close balance .. I am using Winton 200 ml tubes so I would figure I used about 4 drops per inch .. any advice or help on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Wayne

Wayne,

Black Oil is a different ball game altogether. This is linseed oil cooked with either litharge, massicot or basic lead white pigment (PW1, of which Cremnitz is the best grade). For those readers who don't know what Black Oil is, I'll just explain that the oil is made highly siccative by cooking it gently with one of the above lead compounds at a constant temperature of 120 degrees Celsius (approx. 250 degrees F.) for at least 1 hour.

In reply to your question Wayne, the differences in drying times across different areas of the painting has almost certainly to do with the drying times of the different pigments. See a chart of pigment drying times on my site (http://www.oils-studio.co.uk/pigments.htm). Using that chart, you can calculate your rate of black oil. Try the following:

1 - Calculate how many drops given the nature of the colour (fast drying, average, slow or very slow).
2 - Add more or subtract your Black Oil drops, given the amount of prepared paint you need.

In other words and to give an example. Let's take Alizarin Crimson, very fat and VERY SLOW to dry. Start with 8 drops. For a standard blob size of a full walnut for all colours, begin reducing 2 drops per drying class. Cerulean is SLOW (6 drops). For AVERAGE colours (4 drops). For FAST colours 2 drops. For VERY FAST colours use 0 (zero) drops. These are all approximate values, obviously, a lot depends on whether you use traditional pigments or modern alternatives (as is the case with WINTON).
All the above figures take a blob of paint of a standard size of a full walnut. Needless to say that if you are going to use more, just increase 1 drop for every quarter of added paint to your standard blob. Reduce 1 drop for every quarter subtracted to your initial standard blob of paint.

Although the above method may work well, I would have to point out that only trial and error can get you to a practical way of doing your calculations. It will become instinctive.

I am assuming you use Black Oil alone, at least that seems to be the case, from what you posted. If you are going to use Black Oil combined with Double-Mastic varnish in order to make Maroger Medium (for details on that, consult my site on the page dedicated to it, at http://www.oils-studio.co.uk/maroger_medium.htm.

A creative way to experiment a little would be to use Black Oil in the way you seem to use it, alone. Then mix it with the varnish to make Maroger and use that as painting medium to dip the tip of the brush.

Personally, my humble view is that Black Oil works at its best when combined to make Maroger. Combine the medium with colours in the same way you would do with just Black Oil and use it ALSO as a painting medium.
The advantages are that the presence of the varnish in the medium further enhances the drying rate by cutting drying time by almost one third and most importantly, the jelly has the typical characteristic of making the paint stay exactly in the place and the shape you marked it with the brush, so this medium is wonderful for all painterly paintings maniacs such as... er... ME! :D

Also, the jelly medium we call Maroger, formed by combining the 2 ingredients, has an interesting translucent gold Baroque red colour which imparts an interesting mellow yet fresh looking effect which is pleasing to the eye.

If you then follow the tradition of the Italian School of Painting and add (by volume) 1/10 of bees wax medium to the previously combined Maroger, you end up with a more matt finish and further enhance the painterly style.

This medium is good for almost all styles of painting, except of course, if you want to have a smooth flat and enamel-like finish with no brush marks at all. For that, this thread has plenty of info already. I use it extensively, even for Abstract work, but it is perfect for still life, urban landscape, painting from Nature, and especially for portraits.
It's perfect for painting opaque. Mixed with transparent colours makes interesting glazes, which are still glazes but show brush signature in them, instead of a more typical flat glaze.
If you dip the brush in the medium and pick a good bit of colour, then dry it on paper and do a scumble, it imparts a luminous relief scumbling quite different and interesting.
Luis :)

Wayne Gaudon
07-16-2002, 05:19 AM
Luis,
thank you very much .. :D

impressionist2
07-16-2002, 06:27 AM
Ilis, You'd better go get that printer paper! Me, too.

Luis, This is invaluable information, and you answered my questions specifically. Thanks so much.

Your website is going to be such a great resource when completed. Always remember to add your link to it.

I feel less stressed now that I know it won't be all that long before it's at least touchable!

Just checked my painting-still looking good. I ususally don't like high gloss sheens, but this one is beautiful. Still waiting three more days, though to touch it! :)

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
07-16-2002, 06:57 AM
Renee got a new baby .. lol .. sounds like I did when my son was born .. I'm not touching him, I might break him.

My painting is now 3.5 days and it is almost cooked .. a little tackie in a few spots .. I would bet that by this evening which will be day 4, it will be completely touch dry and ready for storage or frame or whatever. The gloss is retained as well. Think I will try the Maroger as well later and even the Beeswax. Never hurts to play. Pretty soon I'll be ready to make paintings and then I'll have to go buy a house as I don't have room in my apt for anything but small pieces and I just consider them studies.

impressionist2
07-16-2002, 08:22 AM
Wayne, Are you having the problems Luis is describing with the imprint ( if you touch a spot before it's dry) with your black oil? Or does it not leave an indelible mark in the black oil mix? This is definetly a stand oil problem. That's why I won't go near it. It's exactly as Luis described it.

Does your painting have the same high gloss look?

Your texture with the black oil looks almost the same as mine. If you are not getting the "touch marks" problem I will have to try the black oil too.

Babys I can touch, won't break 'em!- paintings with stand oil, I cannot! :)



Renee

Wayne Gaudon
07-16-2002, 08:57 AM
Renee:

In the places I touch where it isn't dry all I get is paint on my finger and when I touch it where it is touch dry it feels like a dry painting and leaves nothing. I have not pressed on it with any force and it doesn't feel like it has a skin. I will give it a good hard touch feel this afternoon when I get home and let you know if it squishes or not. (It's only a study so it's no big deal if I squish an area. As for the gloss, it has kept it to now. That is why I tried the Copal but for me the Copal doesn't hold the gloss unless I add oil and then I don't have the same feel in the paint as one counteracts the other.

An asset of the Black Oil from what I have read is that the oil is alread as discolored as it will get (darkened) so although it will alter your color minuitely, the painting should not discolor with age as the oil has reached it's limit. I use the Walnut Black Oil from Studio Products.

I have only did the one little piece with the Black Oil so I can't really give you a good feel for it yet and as I am busy making my color plates it will be a bit before I can knock of a half dozen or so pieces and really get a good feel for how it behaves. However, it does seem to make the paint a little more manageable so you get that painterly look and it does appear to keep it's gloss. It's 9.00 my time now and I'll get home by 3:00 so I will post you my findings .. that will be about 6 hours short of 4 days.

Later,

impressionist2
07-16-2002, 09:15 AM
Wayne, FYI, I did a search on Maroger which is the black oil combination that David Leffel uses according to Oil Painting Secrets From A Master.

Thought you would find the threads, an interesting read:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=60728&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Renee, who never watched a painting dry so closely before!

Luis Guerreiro
07-16-2002, 01:19 PM
I look forward to hear from both of you Renee and Wayne, about the tests you are currently doing.
As for blemish of the paint film when you use Maroger or Black Oil on its own, the answer is simple:

Leave the damn thing to dry quietly and wait patiently! Learn to use your NOSE instead of your fingers. Start trying to sniff the paint film instead of testing with your finger (don't stuck the nose on the paint film though!) The smell becomes sweeter and stronger while it's drying and then that strong odour subsides quite a bit when it's touch dry or near that stage.

Luis :D

Wayne Gaudon
07-16-2002, 03:04 PM
Ok .. still not dry but mostly on the white which is the slowest drying color. Seems the rest of the painting is touch dry. According to Luis I did not put enough black oil as I think in the measurements he suggested, I should have used 16 drops when in fact I used about 8. I had about 2 walnut size drops of white paint so that should explain why the white is lagging.

Actually, it does leave an indent if you push it too hard and you can burst the skin as well so it must be similar to the stand oil thing.

Think I will make me a few little test of this oil later to see what I am up against for drying.

Later,

Wayne Gaudon
07-16-2002, 06:59 PM
This may help me get a little feel for it .. !st. Part of Experiment with Black Oil

I used all my colors to get black. (Reason, I had some of each color left over from making a chart)

Used a Walnut Size of Made Black and a Walnut Size of Titanium White.

Used 8 good drops on each blob.

Top 2 blobs are minimum 1/8 thick to 1/4
Second Blods are about 1/8 thick and a demo that one color can sit on the other without infecting it .. ie.. stroke stays put.
Third image is just dabbles to intermix the two blobs.

Will see how long it takes to dry etc.

First observation was that the black became much more slick than the white when mixed thoroughly with the oil. Depending on how you want your paint to react, you could use less on the black or more on the white. Not significant with these blobs but could made a difference when mixing with singular colors.

Luis Guerreiro
07-16-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Wayne Gaudon
Ok .. still not dry but mostly on the white which is the slowest drying color. Seems the rest of the painting is touch dry. According to Luis I did not put enough black oil as I think in the measurements he suggested, I should have used 16 drops when in fact I used about 8. I had about 2 walnut size drops of white paint so that should explain why the white is lagging.

Actually, it does leave an indent if you push it too hard and you can burst the skin as well so it must be similar to the stand oil thing.

Think I will make me a few little test of this oil later to see what I am up against for drying.

Later,

I think you're correct. Plus; if your white is Titanium White, expect it to be very slow to dry, a characteristic of this pigment. The other is that it is quite brittle. When calculating your dryer or black oil, take this into account.
Well done so far though :clap: .
Keep in mind that differences in drying times are greatly influenced by atmospheric conditions, temperature, quality of the tube oil colour, siccative nature of that particular batch of Black Oil, the siccative agent that was used to make Black Oil (Litharge, Massicot or PW1-Pigment Lead White), etc...
In general though, your calculations are correct.
Luis

Luis Guerreiro
07-16-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Wayne Gaudon:

I used all my colors to get black. (Reason, I had some of each color left over from making a chart)

Try to use single colours whenever possible, to obtain more accurate results.

Second Blods are about 1/8 thick and a demo that one color can sit on the other without infecting it .. ie.. stroke stays put.

I have referred this characteristic of Black Oil and indeed of Maroger Medium, I think. I didn't check in above postings but I should have, if I didn't, please accept my apologies.

First observation was that the black became much more slick than the white when mixed thoroughly with the oil. Depending on how you want your paint to react, you could use less on the black or more on the white. Not significant with these blobs but could made a difference when mixing with singular colors.

Correct. To know the basic properties of the pigment in question at any given time helps to decide how much drying oil to use. As I said before, it will end up being almost instinctive. After gaining some experience, you just happen to know... Also remember that if you add Mastic Varnish to the oil to make Maroger, the varnish increases the siccative power of the oil, so care must be taken in this respect as well.
Another essential point is to know exactly the drying power of the Black Oil you are using. This is a difficult point, as manufacturers do not usually reveal such details. In the case of Walnut Black Oil made by LeFranc & Bourgeois (Claude Yvel Black Oil), I know for a fact that they use Litharge and boil the oil at 70 degrees Celsius and then at 120 degrees Celsius for about 1 hour. As a result, this oil doesn't create a big precipitate of lead in the bottle (it is left to stand for several weeks and then filtered out) which makes its siccative power excellent, but not harmful.
When dealing with Black Oil, take an enormous amount of caution in handling.
Please, please, please let me kindly remind you that ALL health and safety rules must apply in full.
Luis :)

Phyllis Rennie
07-16-2002, 07:55 PM
Thank you, Luis. I appreciate both your willingness to give advise and the clarity of your answer. Regards.

impressionist2
07-16-2002, 08:05 PM
More great stuff. Thanks, guys.

Wayne that test sheet looks exactly like the consistency I am getting with my 50/50 mix.

Wayne, just one thing about this skin problem. I am feeling under pressure to "get back to" the painting. I have a new painting in this medium, which will be ready to post in a day or two, but when the days painting is done, I fear that skin is setting in and I feel pressured to get back to the location and start painting on it again before it sets. Are you feeling like this?

Although, I made a bottle full of the mix and now that every drop is uniform, I am not seeing that problem as long as I get back to the spot, early the next day. But, I am feeling the stress to beat the skin formation to the punch, so I can still blend my colors without wrinkling setting in. :(

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
07-16-2002, 08:28 PM
Luis: Yes you did mention the fact of strokes staying put. Actually, you were of great help when I set out to find out about Black Oil on a tread I started asking about it so you did cover the bases with me.

By using the made black and white I was just seeing how long it took for each blob to dry. I realize it isn't a study on the colors. I will do that with each painting as I have taken your color charts and others and organized my paint colors into slow medium and fast drying pigments and I will render my oil as per the rating and adjust the amounts with a few different paintings till I find I am happy with the feel and results.
I just did the second phase where I let the black and white sit for an hour and a half on newsprint to suck some of the oil out of it and then I applied the 8 drops of Black Oil and did the same samples.

Will be interested to see if one is ahead of the other in drying.

I am in a little doubt as to white .. seems it needs more than the colors. I found the same occurance with the copal .. white needed much more to bring it down to the soft butter consistency.

Luis, I wear rubber gloves, paint with a knife so I'm not sucking brushes, and don't eat or drink, plus I was immediately after removing the gloves which are removed after cleanup. From everything I have read, it's only dangerous if ingested and cannot enter the skin any other way. Correct me if I am wrong.

Luis .. I know I've told you before but I'll tell you again, I do appreciate all the time you spend explaining things with such detail.

Renee:
I do all my paintings Alla Prima .. never touch a painting once I finish it. Of course I'm only playing with 11 x 14 (about 2 hours) and 16 x 20 (about 3 hours) so things may change down the road.

Titanium
07-16-2002, 10:06 PM
Renee,

just curious,is this painting one shot alla prima
or are you intending to go at it again ?

If your intending to go at it again on the same
painting, did you ask the lady who gave you
the mix [ 50/50 stand oil/solvent], if she did
also reworked her paintings and how ?

If you did, is she also using Dana colours?

What is your Dana white as a pigment - Ti02
a mix ?
Titanium

impressionist2
07-17-2002, 06:49 AM
Titanium, I take longer than Wayne's two hours to finish a painting, plus the humidity has been unbearable here for the last three weeks so I am only good for about an hour and half on location. I adjust some back in the studio but I try hard to keep to the 90% outdoors rule to qualify for plein air. So, no, it is not alla prima, which hopefully one day I will speed up into.

My life is a series of interruptions, and if I just lived alone in a cabin in the woods, like Homer, perhaps I would get paintings done all at once. But, either my husband is coming home early or my grandson is being dropped off at "Grams" for the afternoon. Then, there's the dentist, shopping, cooking, etc.. So, I paint on the fly, grabbing an hour or two, here and there. Thanks goodness I am a fast painter.

Christine does not have an e-mail but Mario is trying to contact her for me. Yes, now I want to verify that she is only using 50/50 stand oil and turpenoid, which I have heard. Want to be sure she is not adding anything else. However, I just got out LaLumia's book on plein air painting, and he uses stand oil and turpentine, 40/60, but he only uses it for occasional impasto..

Btw, I did get out the Chamberlin, Ransom book you recommended and they use Rowney's Gel Medium. Have either you or Luis had any experience with this gel?

What is your Dana white as a pigment - Ti02
a mix ?
Titanium

Yes, Classic Artist ( formerly Danacolors) titanium white, your namesake. It's mixed with almost everything except the darkest darks, as mostly I paint medium or high key now. I should have something soon to show you all. I am happy with the way the new one , a painting of dinghys in my usual favorite spot in Cold Spring is coming along. As Aurora said, and I am sure Wayne will agree, this medium has made painting Fun! I feel as if I jumped light years into a new and better way of painting. Now, the knife and brush is having a good time and so am I.

Believe me, I was in one of those down paintings lows before I started using this. I was hating everything I was painting and four panels went south in two weeks. Now, all my enthusiasm is back and I am having a great time. Don't you find a big art depression sets in right before a breakthrough? Happens to me every time.


Wayne wrote:Luis, I wear rubber gloves, paint with a knife so I'm not sucking brushes, and don't eat or drink, plus I was immediately after removing the gloves which are removed after cleanup. From everything I have read, it's only dangerous if ingested and cannot enter the skin any other way. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, same here. My son brings home boxes of the workmen's latex gloves from our family business for me. I do not paint without them. You get used to the clumsiness and adapt after a while. I am a messy painter and don't feel like getting thalo green enbedded in my skin. I use paper towels and socks to extract the paint off the knife or brush and then, everything, gloves, towels and disposable palette gets tossed, when the session is done.


Luis .. I know I've told you before but I'll tell you again, I do appreciate all the time you spend explaining things with such detail.

Let the choir say "Amen".

Luis, fifth day now for the beach painting. The edges are tacked up beautifully. Even gave a thicker part on the edge a pressure touch and nothing moved or imprinted. Still taking your advice and not touching the middle of the painting for another three days. Thanks so much for posting your test results as a guide.



Renee

Wayne Gaudon
07-17-2002, 08:20 AM
My life is a series of interruptions, and if I just lived alone in a cabin in the woods, like Homer, perhaps I would get paintings done all at once. But, either my husband is coming home early or my grandson is being dropped off at "Grams" for the afternoon. Then, there's the dentist, shopping, cooking, etc.. So, I paint on the fly, grabbing an hour or two, here and there. Thanks goodness I am a fast painter.

Renee: Alan Jackson .. "Here In The Real World" :D

I'm blessed, I have a wife not a husband!

Luis Guerreiro
07-17-2002, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2:
Btw, I did get out the Chamberlin, Ransom book you recommended and they use Rowney's Gel Medium. Have either you or Luis had any experience with this gel?

No, not me. The only manufactured Impasto medium I have used for years is LUKAS 5 and won't trust anything else. I posted something about this medium in the 1st page of this thread.

Luis .. I know I've told you before but I'll tell you again, I do appreciate all the time you spend explaining things with such detail. Let the choir say "Amen".

LOL! :D

Luis, fifth day now for the beach painting. The edges are tacked up beautifully. Even gave a thicker part on the edge a pressure touch and nothing moved or imprinted. Still taking your advice and not touching the middle of the painting for another three days. Thanks so much for posting your test results as a guide.

You should be OK with that. Sometimes I place my paintings on an easel facing an open window. They do suck in oxygen quicker.
I remember someone saying something about a fan heater, many months ago? Can't remember who, but it was an interesting idea.
I look forward your final conclusions in 3 days.

Luis

impressionist2
07-18-2002, 02:34 PM
Okay, it's the sixth day and the first painting is tacking up nicely. Luis, I think I will be right on your schedule by the eighth day.

Here's the new one, truely 50/50 stand oil and turpenoid mixed right in the bottle. The rocks under the dinghys had to be more detailed so i don't have that gloosy sweep like the last one. Plus, the paint is still wet and movable the next day.

Four miserably hot sessions here in sweltering NY, plus some detail work and value adjustment back in the studio at the end of each day.

Renee

cobalt fingers
07-18-2002, 02:48 PM
That log retaining wall is awesome -very Russian looking


Luis, do you know the name of John S Sargents' postman in 1889?

cobalt fingers
07-18-2002, 02:50 PM
Ok Luis, me neither,


I just wanted to try to find a really tough question that you couldn't answer.

Phyllis Rennie
07-18-2002, 08:02 PM
Renee, are you using the paint pretty much the same thickness all over?

Wayne Gaudon
07-18-2002, 09:01 PM
The little painting of the ocean's wave is completely dry after 5 days. Made with Black oil .. you could frame it or whatever. The gloss is there but I did notice a little lost if I missed a spot and the thickness of the paint was not there. ie. if I scraped the canvas and covered it but with minimal paint. I would assume that one should keep all paint of similar thickness or at least keep it all thick and thicker to achieve the gloss.

The testing with the black and white blobs .. one I removed some of the oil first by leaving the oil out on newsprint and the other I used out of the tube .. added black oil to both .. both have formed a skin by the second night and both were easily broken. I did one patch with out adding the black oil and it had no skin and was as wet as the day I laid it down. I will wait 2 more days and then prod at it in a different area to see how it is working.

Luis Guerreiro
07-19-2002, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by cobalt fingers
That log retaining wall is awesome -very Russian looking


Luis, do you know the name of John S Sargents' postman in 1889?

Nope. :(
Impressionist, that new painting 50/50 with turpenoide (brrrrr) looks good though. It will be interesting to see how it dries and reacts with the oil.
Like the colours and the light in the painting.
Luis :)

Luis Guerreiro
07-19-2002, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by cobalt fingers
Ok Luis, me neither,
I just wanted to try to find a really tough question that you couldn't answer.

:D LOL! It's 07:25 AM in London. I am already having a good laugh. Too early for a Guinness obviously! LOL! :D
Luis ;)

Luis Guerreiro
07-19-2002, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Wayne Gaudon
The little painting of the ocean's wave is completely dry after 5 days. Made with Black oil .. you could frame it or whatever. The gloss is there but I did notice a little lost if I missed a spot and the thickness of the paint was not there. ie. if I scraped the canvas and covered it but with minimal paint. I would assume that one should keep all paint of similar thickness or at least keep it all thick and thicker to achieve the gloss.

The testing with the black and white blobs .. one I removed some of the oil first by leaving the oil out on newsprint and the other I used out of the tube .. added black oil to both .. both have formed a skin by the second night and both were easily broken. I did one patch with out adding the black oil and it had no skin and was as wet as the day I laid it down. I will wait 2 more days and then prod at it in a different area to see how it is working.

Excellent. Well done Sir! Five days should be about right, I suppose, as it is an average drying time covering all colours as I indicated, if I am not mistaken...

As for your black and white blobs, let's wait and see. Given the amount of black oil you used and the absence of a resin to counter-balance, I would expect the blobs to wrinkle a bit, although they will be drying from the inside out. What's the room temperature like. Is it hot and dry, hot and damp?...
Speaking of which, there is Sunshine in London today. At long last! It usually rains all bloody year round. :evil:
Luis :angel:

Wayne Gaudon
07-19-2002, 05:16 AM
Renee .. I have to agree with Luis .. that last piece is much more impressionistinc than painterly. You seem to be doing what I'm doing .. trying to move from somewhat of an impressionistic style to the more painterly approach. I am having a lot of difficulty with it. It is so much harder than it looks. The little piece I stuck in the painterly thread is pathetic but I put it there as an attempt at painterly and I want to keep it to see how it drys. I loaded it with black oil this time round .. lots of it .. double what I put into the piece that dried in 5 days. Will be interesting to see what happens to it.
After doing all my charts, the thing I screwed up big time on was the color. One time, one decision, one stroke... tough act.
I have made a little bottle of the 50/50 to play with and will use it on the next piece.

later,

Luis .. the room is not hot, more mildly warm, and more humid than dry. Basically no air as I have the window shut to accomodate the air conditioner which is just a window unit and it's in the bedroom so a little of the cool gets out here with the help of a fan .. if the bedroom is 21 then this room would be 24 or so .. guessing.

impressionist2
07-19-2002, 06:33 AM
Wayne, you wrote: "Renee .. I have to agree with Luis .. that last piece is much more impressionistinc than painterly."

Now, did he Call me Impressionist or call the Painting impressionist? Hahaha.........It's way too early in the day, to be confused!

Luis wrote:
"Impressionist, that new painting 50/50 with turpenoide (brrrrr) looks good though. It will be interesting to see how it dries and reacts with the oil.
Like the colours and the light in the painting.
Luis "

Thanks, Luis.

Wayne and Luis, Anyway, I do agree that I slipped back into my namesake style to get those rocks. How do you get that kind of detailed delineation of small items like rocks, with one sweep of paint? Dunno.

Phyllis, Yes, the paint is equally thick at first application. The thickness increases in spots as I apply new color when I am unhappy with what went before. I am not Sovek and Schmid, and just can't get that "put the Right color down the first time" thing.
:(


Now here's your statement that is SO true for me, too, Wayne: "trying to move from somewhat of an impressionistic style to the more painterly approach. I am having a lot of difficulty with it. "

"I loaded it with black oil this time round .. lots of it .. double what I put into the piece that dried in 5 days. Will be interesting to see what happens to it."

Wayne, we could always use 90% medium and 10% paint and when they ask where our new paintings are after six months we can just say, "They are drying...............still" ! :D


Renee

Wayne Gaudon
07-19-2002, 06:43 AM
Now, did he Call me Impressionist or call the Painting impressionist? Hahaha.........It's way too early in the day, to be confused!
Doesn't take much to confuse me!

Wayne, we could always use 90% medium and 10% paint and when they ask where our new paintings are after six months we can just say, "They are drying...............still" !
:D .. yea except with 90% Black Oil I can say .. shriviled up in the back room!:D

As soon as I saw your latest I was remined of the trouble I am having .. slip sliding away. It will come but it sure is testing! Least I'm not selling so I don't have the extra pressure. Really like the work or C White that you posted the link to. The one with the roadway along the lake or ocean .. Wow .. that is a few strokes.

PS.. saw one by Christian someone else while in Quebec last week. White tug boat .. about 3 or 4 strokes and you could ride in the boat it looked so real. I want to get there soooooo bad!

Also, when you say you add a drop to a mixed pile .. what do you consider a mixed pile .. walnut size dropping?

later,

impressionist2
07-19-2002, 08:44 AM
Wayne, You wrote:
Also, when you say you add a drop ( of oil) to a mixed pile .. what do you consider a mixed pile .. walnut size dropping?

Wayne, "Dropping"? What? Do you own birds? :D

Actually, about half of that. Just creamy enough to plump up but not to overpower it.

I hit the correct color on about the fourth swing through, so there's no point in making three or four huge mistakes. I start out with a small pile of paint, and add to it. I actually use the remnants of the last pile to start the coloring for the next one, so everything stays unified.

Hmmmmm, wonder if that's a mistake. :rolleyes:

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-19-2002, 09:04 AM
Wayne Gaudon wrote:

Renee .. I have to agree with Luis .. that last piece is much more impressionistinc than painterly.
Thank you Wayne.

Luis .. the room is not hot, more mildly warm, and more humid than dry. Basically no air as I have the window shut to accomodate the air conditioner which is just a window unit and it's in the bedroom so a little of the cool gets out here with the help of a fan .. if the bedroom is 21 then this room would be 24 or so .. guessing.
Sounds good to me. Opening the window sometimes brings in fresh air, which helps drying too. A saturated atmosphere is un-healthy for the painting... And you! :D

Luis:)

Luis Guerreiro
07-19-2002, 09:39 AM
Impressionist 2 wrote:

Now, did he Call me Impressionist or call the Painting impressionist? Hahaha.........It's way too early in the day, to be confused!

Renee, I called the painting "impressionist". Your name is Renee or "Impressionist 2". :D ROFL :D. If you change to a more painterly style, will you change your name to "Painterly 2"? :p

Wayne and Luis, Anyway, I do agree that I slipped back into my namesake style to get those rocks. How do you get that kind of detailed delineation of small items like rocks, with one sweep of paint? Dunno.

Don't "suffer" the paint on the palette, break the colours, mix directly, roughly on the canvas itself, not the palette, for every stroke, touch ONCE, maximum TWICE the same spot on the canvas and leave it. If after this, you still feel the need to go back and compose the stroke, RESIST the temptation and realise the Devil is playing a trick on you to make you fail the painterly style. In places, check in advance if you can do JUST ONE STROKE. If you can, don't use a brush. Use a painting knife of an appropriate shape for that stroke and leave it.

Wayne, "Dropping"? What? Do you own birds?
You mean Wayne's droppings...:D
Actually, about half of that. Just creamy enough to plump up but not to overpower it.
I'm gonna be sick! :D

Renee (Impressionist 2 :evil: ) and Wayne:

Here is something not your cup-of-tea probably (abstract) but painterly, made with a couple of brushes and a lot of knives, study on paper, part of an abstracts project based on "African Textures and Designs". The real paintings are to be done on primed MDF panels. In total there should be 12 panels, 2 of them are GIGANTIC (2440mm x 1220mm) horizontal and MDF as thick as 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Heavy stuff! Tons of oil paint will be needed. I am looking for patron investors for those 2 big panels. I haven't done the studies yet.
Enjoy:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2002/African_Textures_3_A.jpg

impressionist2
07-19-2002, 01:15 PM
Wayne and Luis, Here's what I meant about getting dead on color.
This from a NYS plein air friend:

renee.....you wrote, 'See, but that's the problem, I am trying to get looser. When I painted those logs loose, they looked like a big blob.'

i understand what you mean........HAWTHORNE stated clearly that if you try to paint an object first (form) then it will not be loose. his thought was to first get color and value correct as you see the object. don't worry about the form or the edges right yet. HENSCHE took that thought and did all the 'block studies' as a result. from his perspective, seeing those blocks would involve seeing the color and value as it moves about the object. this is where it gets tough to apply the theory since one has to be very familiar with block studies and using of color and value so that eventually the logs will appear modeled and formed. PHEWWWWW !

you did well ! if you want looser, you have to do the block studies REALLY. i know it sounds boring.....but, it's really the way to understand the color and the various values ! lois' book ( Lois Griffel) is pretty good with the blocks.

have fun !

Wayne Gaudon
07-19-2002, 04:35 PM
Geesh .. more blocks .. least they won't be 1 inch squares. :D

Luis,
Not my cup of tea for making but it would like very nice in a big room that had a lot of wood showing! I like all types of art but at the moment I am not really going to attempt anything else till I can nail down this painterly thing. (And I will) :mad:

Luis Guerreiro
07-20-2002, 12:05 PM
Any test results as of yet?
Luis :)

Wayne Gaudon
07-20-2002, 12:28 PM
Hi Luis .. tapped both this morning with my knife and left and indent .. didn't mess with it as I don't want to open the skin again.

The white with no Black Oil (not shown on picture) is still wet as the day it was dropped.

Not a whole lot of difference but I think the one where I let some of the original oil seep out onto newsprint is being a little slower than the one from the tube. It seems a littly more spongy but it is so little difference that it's a tough call.

Both sides where I made it like a little boat are very touch dry. You could frame either while the 1/8/ to 1/4 inch blobs are in my guess 1 to 2 days away from that state as now they remind me of cod liver oil pills .. spongy but don't overpress or you will have a real mess on your hands.

impressionist2
07-20-2002, 12:32 PM
Luis, Seventh or eighth day on my first painting of the beach.
I can now touch any part of the painting and even gave it a pressure nudge with no dents.

It's still tacky to the touch ( probably will be for quite a while) but at least no disasters will result from anyone touching the surface.

Wayne, I am going to try my next painting with the advice from my friend, above. Forget about shapes and just concentrate on the exact color and value, along with the medium in the paint. We'll see what happens.

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-20-2002, 12:47 PM
Wayne,
I think your results are perfectly sound.
I'd like to add to them that the presence of lead compounds in the painting help stabilise the paint films/layers, one of the reasons why when looking at many old masters pictures, the lights, whites, etc look pretty good and darks cracked (no white lead in the glazes), as glazes although made from boiled and cooked oils with varnishes ("vernice liquida" - Eastlake; not varnishes as we know them now!!!) tended to crack.
It goes to say that this is probably the reason why the academic Max Doerner advises adding a tiny tiny amount of white lead paint to all colours, tiny enough not to tint the colour, but sufficient to stabilise the paint film once applied onto the surface.
I think that if you decide to try Doerner's advice, it's best to use Cremnitz White, a purer grade of lead carbonate white. The grade known as Flake white is inferior and for certain manufacturers, Flake White is a mix of some description, of lead white with zinc white and a wee dash of titanium white.
I have nothing against a proper mix 50/50 of Lead White with Zinc White, quite the opposite, it is one of the best combination whites an oil painter can have, as both pigments cancel each other's not-so-good properties and keep all the good characteristics, but as a stabiliser, use just Cremnitz White.
Luis :)

Luis Guerreiro
07-20-2002, 12:49 PM
Renee,

As expected? I suppose so.
Luis:)

Wayne Gaudon
07-20-2002, 01:01 PM
Renee .. I just did the one Tell Me Before Morning using your solution just to see the difference in drying time verses the black oil. The former one in the painterly thread has all the appearance of being touch dry and not tacky with 2 to 3 days. Will be interesting to see how Tell Me dries verses the Painterly one.

later,

Again I tried to get real painterly and I think it's not bad but my strokes are still too small. Check the bottom pic as I changed it this morning.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51031

impressionist2
07-20-2002, 07:02 PM
Wayne, You are getting there!! I especially like the rocks. You can seethe thick paint and the brushstrokes look good.

The one thing that bothers me is the shed. Are the values too dark? Especially on the shadow side?

Here's my cautious new attempts. This is the first pass of a nearby park and it's very high key, as I was trying to keep the "flow" going, more than et the value right. Will get back to it to correct the values soon.

Renee

Phyllis Rennie
07-20-2002, 08:24 PM
Renee, my advise (I know you didn't ask for it:D ) would be, "leave it alone!". Move on to the next one. You're attempting to learn a new type of painting. Work small, work reasonably fast, work often, and keep moving on to the next one. Forget about producing finished, saleable pieces for awhile. Just get comfortable with the technique. Don't be cautious--it's only a small study.

Are you extablishing the overall value pattern with thinned paint first? If not, try spending the first 10 minutes nailing that down and then going back in with the thick paint to work your smaller shapes while maintaining the overall large pattern that you've already established. It was really hard for me to do the first few times but now I'm starting to find it very valuable to have that underlayer as my guide.

Wayne Gaudon
07-20-2002, 09:40 PM
Thanks Renee
... actually, the painting is not as dark as the picture .. digital ages are not the perfect translator. The thing I would have liked would have been able to do the shed in a few strokes .. I have too many stokes but I'll call it done and move on to the next one.

I think you are suffering the same disease as me .. too small a stoke trying to compensate for lack of the perfect stroke

I'm going to put the knife away for the next one and just use oversized brushes and see what happens.

later,

impressionist2
07-21-2002, 02:32 PM
Phyllis, Here it is with it's values more established. Yes, usually I work as you suggest but you can see Wayne and I suffering through this.

Okay, Wayne, bigger brushes it is.

Sigh.

It'll be like the Mastercard commercial.

"The moment Wayne and Renee "Get" painterliness- Priceless!"

Renee

Phyllis Rennie
07-21-2002, 09:08 PM
It's lookin' good and I'm sure that it will be terriffic when you are finished.

And I know you're "suffering".:D I just can't quite reconcile the cautious approach (cautious being your choice of words) with painterly. Painterly is bold and decisive. I just think that if you want to achieve painterly you'd get there FASTER by giving yourself permission to make bold mistakes. Just an opinion.

Wayne Gaudon
07-21-2002, 09:34 PM
Renee ..
your painting is looking good and I am inclined to agree with Phyllis. I messed up another one today and was about to look for a long rope. After some deep thought I do think I have found the solution but I won't get a chance to try it till tomorrow. I had it going good today but got rushed as I had to go out with the wife and some matters have to take center stage .. Hate when that happens. Picked it up when I got home but messed it up as I am one who has to paint in one sitting or not at all.


Will see how my thought patterns work out tomorrow.

Luis Guerreiro
07-22-2002, 05:00 AM
Renee, this painting looks very good. I'm thrilled.
Luis :clap:

impressionist2
07-22-2002, 07:15 AM
Wayne wrote: I messed up another one today and was about to look for a long rope.


Ohhhhh boy, do I know how you feel! :(

Thanks, Luis and Phyllis. One bad thing about studying the people who have mastered painterliness ( the living ones- Sovek, Auster, Peggy Kroll Roberts) is that I know how far I still have to go to get there. It would be better if Wayne and I were oblivious to their skills, but there they are, all perfect paintings, and color and value dead on.

I think I should spend more time staring at my palette in the mixing phase. Wayne, I know this much is key. Get the color right and the value right The First Time.

I know where I am and how far I have to go. I am just not sure I have the ability yet to choose the right color and value everytime. Plus, then there's every relationship that comes after the first color note is laid down. Ach! :(

Maybe I should find a good colorist and study under him for a year or two or three!

Renee

Phyllis Rennie
07-24-2002, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
[B....................... the people who have mastered painterliness ( the living ones- Sovek, Auster, Peggy Kroll Roberts)............................................ there they are, all perfect paintings, and color and value dead on.


[/B]


Yea--but they weren't born knowing how to do that. You'll get there.

Wayne Gaudon
07-25-2002, 05:52 AM
:D .. one must learn to laugh at one's self.

impressionist2
07-25-2002, 06:37 AM
Wayne, Won't you be chagrined if Luis comes back and tells you he loves it! :p

Well, I don't know abstract enough to judge it, but I will say this for it-It's painterly!! :cat:

I knew you'd have one going and so do I. Three kids from the fishing boat we go on, with their "catch of the day". It's only half done and I am struggling with colors of shirts right now, so stay tuned. My first non plein air in quite a while.

I wrote to Peggy Kroll Roberts about her work. Listen, Ken Auster not only wrote back but he agreed to be an Honorary Member of New York State Plein Air Painters, if we ever get that balloon off the ground-still working on it.

We're at nine pages now, with really no end in sight ( of the thread, not the goal!). Perhaps we should start "Thicker Paint-How? Part II" and maybe others would join us in the "painterly or bust" attempts. What do you think?

Phyllis, Thanks. You know with art, everytime I reach another level, I look up and there's still so much mountain left. Nothing to do but get the stakes and ropes out and go for it.

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
07-25-2002, 07:43 AM
Renee: LOL .. I messed up 2 since last shot :mad: and this was what I did with the paint after I got fed up working on the landscape :evil: .. of course I scraped it down afterward but .. nice color and painterly :angel:

I looked at the art of Kevin MacPherson .. says he is an impressionist but I think he is painterly and that is where I want to go.
My biggest struggle at the moment is with color so I ordered his book to see what I can learn from it. My second biggest struggle is my lighting and my third is I have to work on little 11 x 14 or 16 x 20 canvas .. everything I do is only a study right now but if I don't get the studies right :confused: there isn't much hope for a later painting. :mad:

I think we should kill this thread as it is too big for anyone to want to look at .. cept me, you, Phyllis, and Luis.

PS .. the blobs are still not cured under .. a good thick skin that is very spongy .. the paint without oil has now a skin on it. From what I see, using Black Oil, it takes normal paint coverage of under 1/8 thickness 2 days to get touch dry and thicker paint could take a week or two depending on the thickness. I think the black oil speeds the cure to 2 days instead of 3 or 4 days on regular painting. I have since cut back with the drops and haven't noticed any difference in the cure time. Seems that from 3 to 6 drops don't make any noticable difference with the paint applied the way I apply it.

artbabe21
07-25-2002, 11:35 AM
Wayne, at least Luis was adept at making his more subliminal!:D
Your colors are very nice, must be those color charts you just completed! See, you did learn something after all!

Renee, we have much of Peggy's work in my favorite gallery here in Bozeman. She's been one of their top artist's since '97. In fact I just got info she is having a show at the gallery. I love the simplicity of her pieces, talk about painterly!
Cathleen~

Luis Guerreiro
07-25-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Wayne Gaudon
:D .. one must learn to laugh at one's self.

Wayne,
You didn't bin that "abstract" did you? It's a good start for what could be a very good abstract, mate! I'm not kidding.
Consider working it out into something you "feel" rather than what you see. Abstractionism is a great deal about feeling, the emotional charge of the artist in the presence of whatever caused that emotional charge in the first place. Worth trying... ;)

Luis :)

Luis Guerreiro
07-25-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
Wayne, at least Luis was adept at making his more subliminal!:D (...) Cathleen~

Cathleen,
LOL! :D. Absolutely painterly right about that!
Luis :D

impressionist2
07-25-2002, 03:48 PM
Luis, Happy to report that my first painting is dry enough to place in the frame. Still feels tacky but dry enough to go.

Wayne, I told you Luis would like it. :D

Cathleen, I have never seen an artist more diverse than Peggy. She has the really dark paintings, then her usual great ones and now she seems to be flattening out even more on her figures. Not sure if I like this as much as before, but mostly I love her stuff.

Especially the cups and pitchers, and the lipsticks.

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-25-2002, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Luis, Happy to report that my first painting is dry enough to place in the frame. Still feels tacky but dry enough to go.
Renee

Renee,
Hi Mate,
Excellent! I can't remember now what medium mix you used, but I assume you are happy with the results. Post the details for the record, if you have a moment. I think Cheryl might want to place this thread in the Hall of Fame (just a guess :angel: ).

Wayne, I told you Luis would like it. :D

Massive LOL :D. What?! Do you know me THAT well?

Luis :D

artbabe21
07-25-2002, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
I have never seen an artist more diverse than Peggy. She has the really dark paintings, then her usual great ones and now she seems to be flattening out even more on her figures. Not sure if I like this as much as before, but mostly I love her stuff.

Especially the cups and pitchers, and the lipsticks.


I've never seen her dark works, just her brilliant plein aire work. She has the remarkable ability to capture a subject with a minimum of brush work and a maximum of value. Have actually enjoyed her works coming through our gallery since '94 not '97.
Cathleen~

Wayne Gaudon
07-25-2002, 05:27 PM
Where do you see here paintings on the net?

Hey Pres .. nothing subliminal about me! And Luis I'm still looking for my gun .. can't have that duel without it.

Luis Guerreiro
07-25-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Wayne Gaudon
Where do you see here paintings on the net?

Hey Pres .. nothing subliminal about me! And Luis I'm still looking for my gun .. can't have that duel without it.

Wayne,
We're going "classic"! Bring a sword! LOL! :D
Cathleen, I don't know this painter. Can you point us to a site where to see her work?
Luis

artbabe21
07-25-2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
Cathleen, I don't know this painter. Can you point us to a site where to see her work?

Sure! You can take a peek inside our very own gallery here in Bozeman-----she is listed there w/all the others on the opening page and it shows some nice work of hers. Impressive gallery for our small town.

www.chaparralfineart.com

Cathleen~

Luis Guerreiro
07-25-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21

Sure! You can take a peek inside our very own gallery here in Bozeman-----she is listed there w/all the others on the opening page and it shows some nice work of hers. Impressive gallery for our small town.
www.chaparralfineart.com
Cathleen~

Cathleen,

I went to the site. Gorgeous stuff. Peggy's work is very nice, unusual even. Very contrasting values mixed with a painterly approach do make interesting paintings actually.
I bet Wayne and Rene will be interested in this. In fact I think it was Renee who mentioned this painter in the first place... Not sure.
Luis :)

impressionist2
07-25-2002, 07:21 PM
Man, you guys can talk. And you thought this thread was going to end, Wayne!

Cathleen, Here's Peggy's dark work:

http://www.morris-whiteside.com/Kroll%20Roberts/index.html

Wayne, This is not typical Roberts work. The below image is standard stuff for her. She has an amazing ability to get the exact right color and value and paint it in a flat mass. Now, I ask you Wayne, is that what we are looking for, or what?? ;)

Yes, Luis, this is one of my current art idols. Try, try again!


Renee
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2002/KrollMaryAli.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2002/KrollRed.jpg

Luis Guerreiro
07-25-2002, 07:30 PM
Renee,

This low key work from Peggy is also very good, very painterly, contrasting values again, just a lower key overall, I think.
I didn't know her.
I think this is what you and Wayne are after. Or am I wrong? :p
I bet Cathleen will be contemplating Peggy's stuff... :D
Luis :D

artbabe21
07-25-2002, 07:42 PM
Renee,
It's almost like a grey veil is over the paintings in her darker works, not as illuminating as her 'filled with light' work! Interesting to view.

Yes Luis, her loose style is quite appealing, along with heaps of paint!

Yes, this may be 'the never ending thread' as we go on and on!
Cathleen~ :o

Wayne Gaudon
07-25-2002, 07:53 PM
Cool stuff .. it's a painting and you know it's a painting and it has life.

Luis Guerreiro
07-25-2002, 08:05 PM
Cathleen (Hello Renee and Wayne too...)
Those heaps of paint cost a fortune in oil colour.
I did a test recently with interesting results.
If you check the first page of this thread, there is a posting about an impasto medium from Lukas, in reply to Cheryl, I think (or Renee - not checking that now). It's LUKAS MEDIUM 5 for Impasto.
Now, I have done also a bees wax medium that works fine for me:

All by weight: 1 part of un-bleached bees wax and 3 parts of raw cold pressed linseed oil. Heat the 2 together until the wax melts and blends with the oil. Take the pan and place in a basin with cold water so the mix cools down sharply. Keep stirring and when it becomes a dull opaque paste but still soft, scoop it out into a food processor with a cutting blade (no problem, it's only bees wax and linseed oil - not poisonous, the processor can be properly washed after). Get the machine working at high speed. You will notice that the mix becomes shiny like mayonnaise. Turn the machine off and pour the mix in a clean glass jar or a plastic pot with a lid. Leave to stand for 24 hours. It sets in a velvety smooth paste.

Now the test:

The wax and oil paste is quite fat, so I decided to mix 50% of it with 50% LUKAS MEDIUM 5, basically because this medium contains a very powerful synthetic resin called cyclohexanone widely used in oil painting for its properties (strong and rock hard but its molecules remain flexible so it doesn't crack and dries fast, very fast!!!)
Well, the resulting 50/50 paste is amazing. I can use it with the painting knife or with a brush. Using 10% of this to 90% oil colour should be quite alright. The wax paste gives it body and the synthetic resin keeps it hard and holds it together. Worth trying if you're after something like this. This is good for panels, I am not sure if it is that good for canvases, but hey... Just trying to help here. A small impasto test, heavy impasto (more than Peggy's heaps of paint) dried in 24 hours, hard! Only time will tell if the mix cracks or not, I'll be watching this test for the next 6 months, that's for sure. AH! Another important point. This paste extends the paint without loosing brilliance of colour (that's the BIG property of bees wax, I have to say - it imparts a special vibrance to oil colours). So, basically, any level of impasto can be done and we save money in expensive pigment. Due to the wax, brushes can be used without the risk of clogging the bristles (trust me, I tested it before publishing here).
Remember to wash the food processor immediately after scooping the wax paste out. Plenty of washing-up liquid is good enough. My food processor looks like new! LOL!
Luis :)

PS: In fact! You know what? I know someone in the Lab of LUKAS at the factory in Dusseldorf-Germany! I'll call her tomorrow and will post the result of our conversation here. She's very helpful and competent in oil painting chemistry.

Midwest Painter
07-25-2002, 08:09 PM
I remember reading somewhere that to get thicker paint one should squeeze the paint out on newspaper the night before you paint. The paper will absorb the excess linseed oil.

Luis Guerreiro
07-25-2002, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Midwest Painter
I remember reading somewhere that to get thicker paint one should squeeze the paint out on newspaper the night before you paint. The paper will absorb the excess linseed oil.

Opinions split on this point. I have read that excess oil in the paint is not a bad thing. One way or the other... I personally never drain any excess oil from my paint and never experienced any problems... The oil just makes it more flexible and elastic. Draining excess oil (if any oil in excess) will remove the paint binder. Draining it all night could be counter-productive. Who guarantees me that not too much oil has been drained off? Perhaps the valid point about draining the oil is less yellowing?
Luis:)

artbabe21
07-25-2002, 09:31 PM
While in Denver last week I asked for this medium at several art stores and they looked at me like I had 2 heads. I spelled it very slowly for them. Nada. Then Jerry's Artarama said they would soon be carrying it. I see ASW carries the mediums up to #4. I saw the Lukas site in the US you provided but I sure like ordering where I can get many art related items at once when online shopping with shipping being so high.

But I did remember reading about this product you recommended & wanted to give it a go for heavier impasto. Thanks Luis for this newer recipe! What is the real difference between the medium with & minus the beeswax?

I do have the book Impasto, ought to see what it has to say as well. Nothing this good I am sure.
Cathleen~

impressionist2
07-26-2002, 06:27 AM
Luis wrote: "I think this is what you and Wayne are after. Or am I wrong? "

Luis, No, you are right on the money. A friend and I are e-mailing each other trying to figure out how she's doing that. I think Cathleen hit it on the head on one of the things, when she said "loads of paint". Just like Sargent, that is key. We can't figure out the edges. They sort of mush into each other. That's that "shapes" not "objects" business.


Cathleen, Why don't you be our scout and go take one of Peggy's workshop classes and report back to us, please? :D

We just want to know which medium she's using. You actually may not have to do that, since that was one of the things I asked her, when I wrote to her. She may not want to give that up though since I am not signed up in WS.


Luis said: "Those heaps of paint cost a fortune in oil colour."

That's the truth and the thing that holds me back from blobbing on, just paint. This Lukas 5 is looking more and more interesting. Will have to keep an eye out and see if it can be located. Will watch Jerrys and see if they get it in.

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
07-26-2002, 07:01 AM
Good morning all ..
Pres .. from everything I have read, beeswax takes a high gloss and renders it into a nice low sheen and I would imagine if you used tomuch it would give it a matt finish.

Luis
.. draining the oil has been around for some time so I don't think it will have any adverse affects. It does make the paint more putty like .. much stiffer to work with .. you can mould it, if you will, for lack of a better word. Van Gogh .. Fechin .. I don't think your theory or removing too much oil is valid as the paint will cure before all oil is gone .. ie .. skin .. then chemically finish it's (drying/curing) process ..

PS .
. I don't want to paint like anyone but myself but I do want to learn how different artist paint because the more I know the more I will beg, borrow, and steal and the more I will become an accomplished artist. So yes, that is how I want to paint .. at the moment, till I have grasped what it can teach me.

Renee
.. If you look at my last study, The Great Divide, you will see I have stepped back for a moment as I needed to reassure myself that I could paint, I just haven't grasped this painterly thing yet. I am half-way there and I think by moving back I have grasped a thicker straw. I will test that theory when I get home from work today. If it holds, then I will have made a little more progess in understanding how someone can get so much from so little. Hopefully, I will have something to post because that means I have another piece of the puzzle.

later,

impressionist2
07-26-2002, 08:11 AM
Wayne, So much thinking and puzzling it out-my brain is tired.

I am going to slow down and stop pushing it with the paintings and go back to studying. I think color is so key to this approach. I am getting all the Hensche-Hawthorne books out and go back to do color blocks.

If I can start seeing things as planes of color and value instead of "things", that will be a major step forward.

http://www.theHenschefoundation.org/index.html

Renee

artbabe21
07-26-2002, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Cathleen, Why don't you be our scout and go take one of Peggy's workshop classes and report back to us, please? :D


Her one woman show is coming up at our gallery so I might just go meet her & chat. What about the edges? I can go to the gallery and see them in person. Maybe even ask the gal who owns it what she uses for medium.
Cathleen~
PS, Wayne, I LOVE your tinyhead, would that be you as a youngster?

Wayne Gaudon
07-26-2002, 09:56 AM
Renee
.. I've just ordered about 10 different books on color/application/shade/light/form as well as a few different artist .. I need to stuff my brain with all the information I can find and I do love looking at pictures .. especially if they have some form of explanation.
Getting Kevin MacPherson and Margaret Kessler for starters.

Yes, I do believe Color is the Key and that is my next experiment. The last study I did I nailed down the water and missed the reflected blue by a tone or two but I can adjust that and try that same scene in a more painterly fashion. I'm thinking it should work. LOL .. thought that before and been wrong :D

Later,

hblenkle
07-26-2002, 10:31 AM
there has been talk about lukas medium 5. in jerry's artarama on line, i noticed a picture of lukas painting butter and the picture shows a tube with "malmittel 5" on the side. the ad says it allows the artist to paint as thick as an inch without the possibility of cracking or wrinking. the ad offers a refund if the artist doesn't agree it is the best impasto medium in the world. maybe worth a try.
harold

Luis Guerreiro
07-26-2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by artbabe21
While in Denver last week I asked for this medium at several art stores and they looked at me like I had 2 heads. I spelled it very slowly for them. Nada. Then Jerry's Artarama said they would soon be carrying it. I see ASW carries the mediums up to #4. I saw the Lukas site in the US you provided but I sure like ordering where I can get many art related items at once when online shopping with shipping being so high.
But I did remember reading about this product you recommended & wanted to give it a go for heavier impasto. Thanks Luis for this newer recipe! What is the real difference between the medium with & minus the beeswax?
I do have the book Impasto, ought to see what it has to say as well. Nothing this good I am sure.
Cathleen~

Cathleen,
If ASW carries Lukas mediums up to No. 4, then they will be able to order Medium 5 for you. If not, visit my web site on the page dedicated to suppliers: http://www.oils-studio.co.uk/suppliers.htm, look for ATLANTIS ART MATERIALS (they stock the full range) and order it. It takes about 5 days to get to you from London.
The difference of using this medium with or without bees wax medium as I posted above is that wax gives it more body and brilliance. Application using wax is also easier. Finish is a soft sheen.
I called Dusseldorf to check this wax+Lukas 5 mix with the chemist I know there, but I forgot that in Germany a lot of companies close after lunch on Friday, so I'll have to wait for Monday.
Anyway, back to the bees wax and Lukas Medium 5.

Let's think of Bees Wax first. It is somewhat soft, very buttery. The combination proposed of 1 part bees wax with 3 parts linseed oil (by weight) makes it quite fat, but ensures there is enough oil to hold it together and hardens it a little more.

Now let's think of Lukas Medium 5: It contains some driers, cyclohexanone resins, it is quite translucent and dries rock hard but doesn't crack (I know it doesn't crack - I have known this for several years and paintings done with it are exactly as the day they were finished).

Combining the two gives to wax the hardener it needs, wax gives the medium the body it needs, and also by combinig the two, you are using less fat.

Luis:)

Luis Guerreiro
07-26-2002, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by hblenkle
there has been talk about lukas medium 5. in jerry's artarama on line, i noticed a picture of lukas painting butter and the picture shows a tube with "malmittel 5" on the side. the ad says it allows the artist to paint as thick as an inch without the possibility of cracking or wrinking. the ad offers a refund if the artist doesn't agree it is the best impasto medium in the world. maybe worth a try.
harold

Harold,
Thank you for your comment. I have been saying just that for months and months here at Wetcanvas. I have used it for years and yes, it is the best impasto medium around.
Luis :D

Wayne Gaudon
07-26-2002, 05:41 PM
I tried again today to do a more painterly version of yesterday's piece [b]The Great Divide[/] but again I fell flat on my face. I have come to the conclusion that you can't force things and I will abandon my attempts to use the brushes in a more painterly fashion and go back to painting with my knife and let nature take it's course. I think I have become more painterly but in my own way. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Yesterday (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51796)

Today's Attempt (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51969)

impressionist2
07-26-2002, 07:14 PM
Luis, Which one is better? The Lukas painting butter or Lukas 5?

Wayne, I just couldn't resist. I had a great photo of two little boys playing in the sand, and started the painting today. The background is done, and the hard part is coming up. I am trying to keep it simple and just do the planes.

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-27-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Luis, Which one is better? The Lukas painting butter or Lukas 5?
Renee

Renee, Lukas painting butter and Lukas Medium 5 are thye very same thing: LUKAS 5 - Painting Butter.
Luis :)

impressionist2
07-29-2002, 11:39 AM
Luis, Thanks. I called Jerry's and they are hoping it will be in the new catalogue.

Here's a Kroll that I am not overly fond of. Not her usual great work. This looser yet, slightly creepy work is hard to place. Don't know if it is the most recent or the oldest figurative work.

Artists constantly morph, so tough to tell.

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-30-2002, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Luis, Thanks. I called Jerry's and they are hoping it will be in the new catalogue.
Renee

Hi Renee,

That's excellent news. I was pretty sure that Lukas would be available in the USA, as they have trade representatives there to cater for both the USA and Canada.
Luis :)

impressionist2
07-31-2002, 06:27 AM
Luis, Just the person I wanted to talk to! I wanted to tell you that I had to frame six paintings yesterday for gallery delivery today. Four of the six were painted with the stand oil-turpenoid mixture.

All four dried great and were ready to frame! Thanks for everything we learned from you!

Renee

Luis Guerreiro
07-31-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Luis, Just the person I wanted to talk to! I wanted to tell you that I had to frame six paintings yesterday for gallery delivery today. Four of the six were painted with the stand oil-turpenoid mixture.

All four dried great and were ready to frame! Thanks for everything we learned from you!

Renee

Dear Renee,

You don't have to thank me at all. It was a pleasure to be of assistance and I am honoured that you have trusted me.

Best

Luis :)

artbabe21
08-01-2002, 02:38 PM
Just received 2 identical emails from ASW and Jerry's [same ownership I believe] saying they do NOT carry Lukas medium #5 and do not have plans to and both ignored my question of ordering it for me. I think Luis supplied a link for the US distributor for it. So that may be the only option.

Harold, I'd be interested in where online at Jerry's you saw this reference to the Lukas #5?

Renee,
Didn't you say you'd called them and they said they were going to have some soon?

Cathleen~

Wayne Gaudon
08-01-2002, 02:48 PM
Pres .. you sure ask a lot of questions .. LOL

http://www.jerryssale.com/lukpainbut.html

Noble
08-01-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
Just received 2 identical emails from ASW and Jerry's [same ownership I believe] saying they do NOT carry Lukas medium #5 and do not have plans to and both ignored my question of ordering it for me. I think Luis supplied a link for the US distributor for it. So that may be the only option.

Harold, I'd be interested in where online at Jerry's you saw this reference to the Lukas #5?

Renee,
Didn't you say you'd called them and they said they were going to have some soon?

Cathleen~
I don't understand, here it is at Jerry's http://www.jerryssale.com/lukpainbut.html

artbabe21
08-01-2002, 02:56 PM
Oh, Wayne, you HAVE been holding out on me! How come you didn't tell me this?? I would already have it and be using it! :D

Noble, my thanks for answering, evidentially the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing at Jerry's!!!!!!!!! Is this a new sale catalog???

thanks to you both and a sale at that!!! Now I will be all day ordering paints too!
Cathleen~

nam26b
08-01-2002, 03:26 PM
Wow....it's not my style of painting, but I'm surprised how reasonable it is price-wise.

artbabe21
08-01-2002, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by nam26b
Wow....it's not my style of painting, but I'm surprised how reasonable it is price-wise.

YES! Lucky us who do desire this medium!! Buy lots everybody!
Luis swears by it for the past 2 years!

Cathleen~

hblenkle
08-01-2002, 03:37 PM
Glad to see someone responded with the link to Jerry's for the Lukas painting butter (Lukas medium 5). I had not thought it would be hard to find once we had determined the painting butter was medium 5.
harold

impressionist2
08-01-2002, 07:32 PM
What?? It's there And it's only $6.00?!! I spent thirty dollars today on three small tubes of Winsor Newton Pro oil paints. This is so cheap!

Too bad we all don't live around each other, we could have them ship it all at once and save the shipping. Well, thanks for the tip, Noble!

Yes, Cathleen, they did say they didn't have it yet. Guess they don't know it by Lukas 5, and just painting butter.

Renee

Paintonbrush
08-02-2002, 12:50 PM
this thread has valuable information! gotta jump in here.
thanks you valuable artists

impressionist2
08-02-2002, 02:16 PM
Just ordered the large size painting butter and some WN oils I was running low on. Can't wait to get it.

Btw, Widow's Watch just sold yesterday. To the same lady that wanted to buy it at the show. I didn't want to sell it after it won it's prize and gave her a ridiculously high price. She called yesterday to see if it was still available at a normal price, and it was. I lowered the price to within reason-$400. ( 8" x 10") and she bought it.

I am getting with the philosophy that "I can always paint another one." :)

It was funny 'cause at the last minute I didn't put WW in the gallery show with the other paintings. Must've had a hunch she'd call. Now I get the whole profit , for once, instead of splitting it with the gallery.

Renee

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Aug-2002/Widowswatch4.JPG

Wayne Gaudon
08-02-2002, 03:56 PM
Congratulations .. it's only a painting and you can make many more. Nothing says you can't go back and paint it again at a different time of day or for that matter the same time .. the painting will be different each time out.

artbabe21
08-10-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Cathleen, Why don't you be our scout and go take one of Peggy's workshop classes and report back to us, please? :D

We just want to know which medium she's using. You actually may not have to do that, since that was one of the things I asked her, when I wrote to her. She may not want to give that up though since I am not signed up in WS.

Peggi couldn't attend her one woman show that opened last night but I asked one of the women who own the gallery what medium Peggi used to get the luminous, thick paint. She said she had no idea, she doesn't paint!!!!!!!!!! I was blown away by this response! Don't they have any knowledge of art or painting? They said they would try to find out.

One thing I was struck by and I don't mean this in a critical sense, just an observation peering at her paintings up close, her paint strokes went every which way, many didn't even touch the edge it was to meet but was stroked over it or away from it. I mean we're talking 'seriously loose' here. Of course up close they many looked strange, with the colors used, in one, a flat large stroke under a girls chin of a muted avocado green, but of course once you moved away it's a perfect note. She definitely had fat paint!!

Cathleen~

Luis Guerreiro
08-10-2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21


YES! Lucky us who do desire this medium!! Buy lots everybody!
Luis swears by it for the past 2 years!

Cathleen~

Indeed! I do! :D
Luis :D

Noble
08-10-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
Peggi couldn't attend her one woman show that opened last night but I asked one of the women who own the gallery what medium Peggi used to get the luminous, thick paint. She said she had no idea, she doesn't paint!!!!!!!!!! I was blown away by this response! Don't they have any knowledge of art or painting? They said they would try to find out.

That's why they are called art dealers and not artists! ;) Plus, I would bet most buyers couldn't care less about what went into the painting's construction, only that it isn't going to fall apart on them.

artbabe21
08-11-2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Noble
That's why they are called art dealers and not artists! ;) Plus, I would bet most buyers couldn't care less about what went into the painting's construction, only that it isn't going to fall apart on them.

Well, I agree with that assessment Noble, but I would think they'd have a working knowledge of paintings and the process at least. :rolleyes:
Think I was disappointed they didn't. You don't have to be an artist to know that these paintings most probably weren't varnished as they told me were since they smelled like it when they unpacked them.........it's my guess most artists selling work as fast as she is, doesn't have them hanging around for the final varnish in 6 months to a year.

I agree much of the public could care less about the paintings construction unless they have educated themselves but it wouldn't be by that art dealer. I was w/some friends who purchased an Aspevig painting at another gallery last week for a considerable sum that were pondering where they would place it.
They turned to Clyde and asked if it will fade over time in a room with indirect light. Sheesh, I was surprised they didn't have any knowledge regarding this since it wasn't their first of his paintings to own. :rolleyes:
Cathleen~

impressionist2
08-11-2002, 07:52 AM
Cathleen wrote: "Peggi couldn't attend her one woman show that opened last night but I asked one of the women who own the gallery what medium Peggi used to get the luminous, thick paint. She said she had no idea, she doesn't paint!!!!!!!!!! I was blown away by this response! Don't they have any knowledge of art or painting? They said they would try to find out."

Cathleen, Most art directors deal with so many artists that the details of painting production are lost in the day to day business end. As long as the artist keeps producing and the public keeps buying, that's all that counts.

I wrote to Peggy two weeks ago, introduced myself ( did not use the connections from NYPAPS, though), and asked that same information. No response as yet. Please let's exchange that info, if either of us finds out. But, for the most part artists should forget about painting like Peggy. If anyone thinks they can pull it off, try it. It's hair pullingly difficult.

You might look in Southwest artists mag past issues, as there was an article about her this year. She studied with Dan McCaw you know! He's fabulous. if you find it, please let me know if it's worth buying a back issue.

Cathleen wrote: "One thing I was struck by and I don't mean this in a critical sense, just an observation peering at her paintings up close, her paint strokes went every which way, many didn't even touch the edge it was to meet but was stroked over it or away from it. I mean we're talking 'seriously loose' here. Of course up close they many looked strange, with the colors used, in one, a flat large stroke under a girls chin of a muted avocado green, but of course once you moved away it's a perfect note. She definitely had fat paint!! "

Well, in a nutshell, Cathleen, you just explained her success, and her medium ( the fat paint) of choice is only one component. Plus, what you described is not a criticism, it's a compliment. That's what impressionism is.

Plus, it's all of her years all put together, her talent and her past teachers that bring her to that defining moment when she mixes and chooses the Perfect color in the Perfect value in the Perfect relationship with all the other colors around it and lays it down in what you described as the true impressionist method.

Btw, her style is changing now, as the show at Chaparral shows, getting even more vivid in the shadows. Just keeps getting better.

Renee

Dan McCaw, Peggy's teacher:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Aug-2002/mccaw_day_at_the_beach.jpg

Wayne Gaudon
08-11-2002, 09:43 AM
Dan's piece .. you've seen the beach by Peggy, now by Dan .. as you can see, she was heavily influenced by her teacher.

artbabe21
08-11-2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Cathleen, Most art directors deal with so many artists that the details of painting production are lost in the day to day business end. As long as the artist keeps producing and the public keeps buying, that's all that counts.

I guess I still find it unusual that they wouldn't be more educated in the product they are selling, just to be able to answer question about paintings intelligently.

As for my remarks about her brush work, I was actually referring to 'sloppy' in appearence rather than painterly in my opinion. But of course that's up close, farther away they work. I've seen many Impressionistic works in person and what I saw never really bordered on sloppy.

I certainly agree about her talent, yet I have no desire to paint like her. I admire her colors & luminous fat paint! My hubby didn't care for her work at all and couldn't understand why I was checking it out. I told him it was an acquired taste. ;)

Cathleen~

impressionist2
08-11-2002, 01:08 PM
Cathleen, I have never seen Peggys work in person. To me, on the net, it all looks clean and organized but I am sure it is much different in person. I must be a sloppy fan, because I love Sovek's work too and he has been criticised for the same thing. Everyone has their own cup of tea and that is fine.

Wayne wrote: "Dan's piece .. you've seen the beach by Peggy, now by Dan .. as you can see, she was heavily influenced by her teacher."

And Wayne, you can see the influence especially in pieces like this one of Peggys and yet she still has her very own style.

All I know is when I see her work, I am astounded.

Renee

artbabe21
08-11-2002, 01:53 PM
I wasn't being critical of her brush work, only surprised at how it works and it does, so beautifully too. The simplicity amazes me.

BTW, this painting [above] was one that was shown at our gallery and it SOLD right away. It was one of the larger pieces.

Cathleen~

Wayne Gaudon
08-11-2002, 03:40 PM
Renee
.. she was an observant student with a mind of her own. That is a good thing.

impressionist2
08-12-2002, 06:29 AM
Wayne, The Gallery show reception was yesterday afternoon. They put two of my paintings right next to the entrance, which made me happy. I got a chance to meet and chat with three of the artists whose work I have always respected , so it was an interesting afternoon.

One of them was Dinah Maxwell Smith. Her work always reminds me in a small way of Krolls. See attached. I am sending her Peggy's site today ( she's never heard of her. She's in for a treat) . I have seen Dinah's work at all the shows I have been in, but never met her till yesterday.

This artist has been painting since the seventies!!! and studied at the Rhode Island School of Design and Peggy was an illustrator so you can see how design influences these artists. If I had my education to do over again, I would absolutely have placed the emphasis on design courses.

None of these artists in the gallery show are on the net!..........and they all want to be and most have no idea, short of hiring someone, how to do that. So I was glad to see that at least I am on the right track having a good web presence.

Cathleen, Another thing about Peggy is even in her larger work, she usually doesn't get greedy. Her large pieces I believe are in the $2800. range-not a bad price if you've got the resources.

I saw one artists small pieces yesterday that were not good, imho, and the artist was asking ( not getting , just asking) $1100. each. The public needs to be educated so they can discern between real technical skill and a bad imitation. Everyone else in the show was skilled so not sure how this one slipped in.

Then there was a fabulous piece by another artist I met and would have paid for. She was trained by David Leffel and Dinnerstein at the Art Student's League, and although this was a landscape, the brushwork and color And composition was fabulous and it was only $800. and worth every penny. Most of the artists were pricing to sell this year as we had all been warned of the slowdown in the economy.

The bright spot on the pic is my flash three years ago, prior to my digital camera arriving on the scene.

Renee

artbabe21
08-12-2002, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Cathleen, Another thing about Peggy is even in her larger work, she usually doesn't get greedy. Her large pieces I believe are in the $2800. range-not a bad price if you've got the resources.

Try $3600, looks like she is on the upswing after all. I found it surprising with the economy. But then look at how Clyde's work completely sold out at prices far higher but then his work does command higher prices at $25,000 for larger ones!

Cathleen~

artbabe21
08-13-2002, 11:47 AM
Renee,
Back to the experiments of thicker paint-------can you tell us the difference in your 50/50 stand oil & turps and the Lukas 5 butter? Initially you were thrilled with the first so now that you have tried the Lukas how do they compare? What portions have you found workable with Lukas?

Cathleen~

impressionist2
08-13-2002, 08:04 PM
Cathleen, I took Luis advice and for now, I am now mixing the stand oil/turp mix with the Lukas 5 on the latest beach couple painting and the high gloss sheen came back and it's still wet after two days.

I actually had to paint on ( very carefully!) clear stand oil/turp on the rocks painting as I had only used Lukas 5 on that and it was a very matte finish. The shine came back with the top clear coat.

Did I tell you one of the experienced artists I spoke to at the gallery asked me about the medium I used as my paint was so thick on the little boys playing in the sand painting? She made me write the name of the medium down for her. So..........I guess the improvement is noticable.

As Phyllis said, today is SO HOT!!! I went out to lunch with my friends! Shopped in the AC'd mall and had a great time.

Even artists need a break.:)

Renee

impressionist2
08-14-2002, 11:22 AM
Taking my own advice to paint everyday, I have removed this piece from plein air forum and decided to work on it indoors as it is too darn hot out there.

Following another excellent suggestion from Luis, I mixed the Lukas 5 with a cerulean blue/white mix and scumbled over the orangy sand to cool down the painting and make the warm spots on the couple pop out. This painting is a struggle and is only half done.

Point is to make the couple into abstract shapes yet still make it appear as a couple, the way you would see them in glaring sun from a distance.

Renee

artbabe21
08-14-2002, 11:37 AM
Renee,
Thanks for information on how you are using Lukas. What ratios w/stand oil/turps [i assume it's 50/50 for those two] but to how much Lukas? I just got mine late yesterday so am anxious to try it.

I so agree with your paint everyday........here I had just allotted myself each Wednesday & Thursday all day to paint, but ya know what, all day may be far too long. Probably a few hours each day is smarter in the long run.

Your scene is coming along nicely, I'd seen it with just the male figure and could see influences of Sovek's work, now it's back to your style. Sand look cooled.

Cathleen~

impressionist2
08-14-2002, 11:58 AM
"Thanks for information on how you are using Lukas. What ratios w/stand oil/turps [i assume it's 50/50 for those two] but to how much Lukas? I just got mine late yesterday so am anxious to try it. "


Cathleen, 50/50 on stand oil and turp, and then to that mix add 50% Lukas 5. Keeps the shine, slows the drying time, yet you won't have to wait a week anymore for it to dry.

Here's a truer show of colors photoed in indirect sunlight.
Renee

Paintonbrush
08-26-2002, 11:13 AM
HI all-I get my Lukas 5 this week , just popping in to see how everyone who is using this is doing?

impressionist2
08-26-2002, 11:53 AM
Paintbrush, Hi. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, Luis, don't kill me but I kind of put it back on the shelf. :(

I went back to the stand oil/turpenoid mix, and also discovered that Sovek also uses three part turps with stand oil for a medium.

The Lukas 5 wasn't doing anything for the plumpness and in fact reduced the plump look a bit for me, so I shelved it for now.

You may find it works better for you.

Wayne and Cathleen, where are you both at with lukas 5 now?

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
08-26-2002, 12:32 PM
Renee

Basically all I want out of it is faster drying times without the possibility of cracks and hope to keep the luster so I won't have to varnish.

.. I am just playing with it .. have done 3 pieces and this is all I have to report to date.
using 1/4 ratio to paint, I lose the luster

using 1/2 ratio to paint, without oil, I can't get it done .. it sets up too fast for me

Haven't had time to check the luser with the 1/4 ratio and a drop of Stand Oil .. however, I have found with stand oil that I get a rubbery feel to the paint as it dries out to in where as when I use the black oil or copal it dries harder, faster, drying from in to out.

I am going to try a 50% ratio with stand oil next and see what happens.

I like the smell but think it may be deadly as a big fly started playing on an old scraped board of mine and I found it dead when I went to pick up the board later. May be considence but may be something he ingested! I don't know.

It does make the paint plump up and I do like the stickness it creates. Would really be nice if it reached a point of sticky and then stopped there but it continues to set.

I will use up a bunch of studies to get a better feel for it.

Last Piece Done With It (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56714)

impressionist2
08-26-2002, 07:11 PM
Wayne wrote: I like the smell but think it may be deadly as a big fly started playing on an old scraped board of mine and I found it dead when I went to pick up the board later.

Wayne, This reminds me of the subway sign, "If you can smell it, it's killing you". I hate it whe the insects get stuck in the paint. Firstly, for the painting, and secondly, for the insects. Shoo fly.

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
08-26-2002, 08:17 PM
"If you can smell it, it's killing you".

That is a scary thought .. hope it's not true.

paintfool
08-31-2002, 01:39 PM
This is a great thread and i will be placing a copy of it into the 'Oil Hall of Fame'. I will still keep it open in this forum as well because threads in the Hall of Fame are closed threads and cannot be added to. This way it'll be fairly quick to find, if the need arises.

Cheryl

Wayne Gaudon
09-02-2002, 09:32 AM
OK .. shoot me too Lusis .. I have found that the Lukas makes an excellent drier but sets too fast for me. It would be great to do scumbles and drag overs but useless for any fine brushwork or to go back and work wet in wet after an hour or so has passed. T

My last attempt at playing with Lukas was this .. I used a 100 or 125 ratio of Lukas to 100 ratio of paint and used it to prime some small panels for Plein Air Painting .. Panels dry and ready for use overnight but this time they kept the luster .. I would have prefered they didn't but it's not the end all.

.. so for my experiments with Lukas, the final use I will have for it is to tone boards .. hey, have to get some use from it seeing as I paid for it.

will try Maroger next .. so far of the mediums I have tested, my preference is for Black Oil.

later all,

artbabe21
09-03-2002, 02:24 PM
OK, count one more in there w/too quickly drying Lukas. It seems more difficult to control than painting w/o medium.........I thought it was my dry climate but many others have had the same experience. I know Aurora & I think Tina have not been happy with it. It's too bad as it sounded just like what we were looking for at an amazingly low cost. Guess we'll just have to save our $$
and buy LOTS more paint instead......any other FAT painting ideas?

impressionist2
09-03-2002, 07:05 PM
First of all, thanks Cheryl for sending Thicker Paint-How? to the Hall of Fame! It turned out to be a really terrific thread with tons of information and helpful responses as well as a lot of fun.

Wayne, wrote:My last attempt at playing with Lukas was this .. I used a 100 or 125 ratio of Lukas to 100 ratio of paint and used it to prime some small panels for Plein Air Painting .. Panels dry and ready for use overnight but this time they kept the luster .. I would have prefered they didn't but it's not the end all.


Cathleen, I did the same thing as Wayne ( ofcourse, since we were separated at birth!:D Wayne posts something and I say to myself, I just did that yesterday-weirdly weird)

Anyway, the Lukas makes such a great toner mixed with your paint and dries So fast I will reorder it for that alone.

Cathleen, have you tried the 50/50 stand oil, turp or turpenoid mix? Makes it pretty plump.

Renee

LdyBiss
09-03-2002, 07:07 PM
I am struggling with the thick thin thing as well. I have painted rather thin for years, as I wanted to avoid brush marks and such in my works. Now I find myself wanting to create more texture. I have used texture paste, however it is not exactly the desired effect I am looking for, to planed and not in the form of the paint I latter applied over it. I also stress about the drying surface with the oils, cracking and checking created from layering paints. After all these years of painting I still perplex over application. In that perplexing I find it interrupts my rhythm and my creativity. Darn ever different pigments dry at different rates. Now if anyone has a simple answer to a question I have most-likely blown out of proportion for myself with concern, please transplant it my way also.

impressionist2
09-03-2002, 09:57 PM
LdyBiss, Have we actually come full circle back to the question I posed in the very first post of this thread? How does one get thicker paint? -sigh!

Plus: "You want the ecstacy so you have to take the hangover"
Hesse

Is this from Steppenwolf? Herman Hesse is one of my favorite authors- Sidhartha, The Glass Bead Game, Steppenwolf, etc..

Is this from the nightclub scene in Steppenwolf?

Renee

LdyBiss
09-04-2002, 11:24 AM
impressionist2, Renee, Yes full circle. Yet my problem is not wanting to know the formula for thicker paint, more the process of application as not to cause checking and cracking. That thick and thin thing :) As for Hesse, yes the quote is from Steppenwolf. "The cost of admission, your soul".
I also like you enjoy Herman Hesse's works. I read Sidhartha when I was 18 and then again at 50. What a great book to reread latter in life, I got a very different slant from the work after ageing a few hundred years, perhaps a pinch more wisdom or more excepting of ones lot in life.

impressionist2
09-05-2002, 06:34 AM
Sidhartha was one of the most awareness raising books I ever read. I was immersed in that book. Hesse's talent is "taking you right into the moment".

Same thing with "Steppenwolf". I can still remember the experience of the nightclub scene. I think I have to reread it.

It's sad kids live their lives on the computers. They miss so much, not reading as a pastime.

Renee

Titanium
09-05-2002, 08:01 AM
Artbabe,

try mixing the Lukas with a Walnut oil.Let the
solvent evaporate out.

If the Lukas is just an Alkyd Oil Resin with
solvent,an added oil will slow the drying.
However,the solvent has to come out.

If there is a drier in the Lukas,it will dry rapidly.

If it is just an Alkyd Oil Resin,the loss of solvent
may also act like a drier.
Put some Lukas in a teaspoon and level it.
See how much it shrinks with loss of the solvent.

For faster drying use Alkali Processed Linseed Oil
with the Lukas[ after the solvent is gone].

Liquin is just a Soybean Alkyd Oil Resin,Mineral Spirits,
a thickener and a drier [ probably cobalt ].

You can make this if you wanted.Kremer sells GG,
an alkyd oil resin,plus the thickener.

Renee,

some of us younger ones would slit our wrists reading those books.
I prefer Boccaccio,Tolkien[not the Hobbit] ,Journery to West,
and any other positive works.
Titanium

artbabe21
09-05-2002, 11:03 AM
Titanium,
thanks, but you gave me too many assignments LOL! First try the Lukas & walnut, which is what Luis also suggested and I forgot all about. How long to let solvent evaporate out? Let it sit for a bit?
Oh, I don't mess w/making things.......I end up in emergency just working w/tools in my garage so I won't be trying potions in my studio! But thanks for your generous information! :D

LdyBiss
09-05-2002, 02:04 PM
:music:
Titanium, " I cannot sing anymore. That is but part, for I have forgotten much. It is long and sad for it tells how sorrow came upon Lothlo'rien, Lo'rien of the blossem, when the Dwarves awakened the evil in the mountains." .....Legolas

I read the Lord of the Rings when I was a youngster and have reread it a few times since. Like artists writers have each a unique style, to read only one style is like going to the Louvre and looking at only one painting, idolizing one masters creative hand. Or limiting your pallet to only one choice of white, flake white works well also, as does permelba. As for suicidal tendencies, artists rank up there with psychiatrists. Art, music as well as books are not responsible for an act of such sadness and loss. We as a society are more answerable. I agree with impressionist2, reading is becoming a lost art.

Miss Bonnie
09-02-2003, 07:52 PM
All this info is overwhelming....wow!