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tali
08-07-2009, 06:54 PM
CMY Mixing Color Chart for W&N Artisan Water Mixable Oil Paints
For most of my paintings, I use a super limited palette. I'm able to get the widest range of saturation from these pigments. I thought other's would find this chart I made helpful.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Aug-2009/140629-cmycolorchart.jpg

couturej
08-07-2009, 07:31 PM
Wow! Thank you so much Talya this is great! I was going to try the W&N Artisan next as they're more readily available. This has helped a lot in narrowing down my choices of colors to buy. :)

brushstrokebliss
08-08-2009, 02:08 PM
Wow Tali. That is super helpful. Thanks for posting your palette. I'm sure this can be used with any of the brands as long as the colors are converted closely.

That brings up another question. Anyone have any ideas about conversions for these paints like Grumbacher Pretested or WInsor Newton Artists Oils to the different brands in W/S oils? I know some of you started in trad. oils and may have some to do conversions with. I love Tali's skin tone mixes. They can be used as toners as well.

Mixing colors are so important as they open up a huge selection without a zillion paints on the palette.

I have a Winsor Newton color chart but Grumbacher does not make one so those conversions are harder for me to get.

couturej
08-09-2009, 04:17 PM
This is a thread for:

- sharing your mixing recipes
- discussing color theory
- your basic palette
Anything regarding color

couturej
08-09-2009, 04:22 PM
My base mixture for skin tones is Holbein Alizarin Crimson and Holbein Duo Aqua Yellow Ochre. Holbein Ultramine blue is used in this mixture for less saturated areas.

My basic palette consists of the following colors:

Holbein Vermilion
Holbein Deep Yellow
Holbein Lemon
Lukas Berlin Veridian
Holbein Blue
Holbein Ultramarine Blue
Holbein Alizarin Crimson
Holbein Yellow Ochre
Holbein Burnt Umber
Lukas Berlin Titanium White

judyfilarecki
08-09-2009, 05:51 PM
I don't like to use black in my painting because I feel it deadens the colors(unless I'm painting a chickadee that is black and white.) I use burnt umber and ultramarine blue and that makes a very good black. I don't know the exact ratio, so you'll have to experiment with it.

When I want a very dark color or gray based on the colors on my palette, I use complementary colors.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Aug-2009/190342-red-green.jpg This is an example of cadmium red and phthalo green(blue shade). The ratio of color is 3 parts red to 1 part green. It gives you a very dark color which, when white is added, gives you a very nice gray. If you change the ratio, it will swing toward a dark green-brown or red-brown shade. The best way for you to find out what happens is to try it. When I used a sap green(yellow-green) with the cad red, it produced a very yellow-orange brown.

For people not used to mixing their own colors, I have more examples of this using other colors on my website
http://www.filarecki.com/complementary-colors.html

I've been having so much fun working with mixing my own colors and teaching my students about it. It has added a whole new dimension to my painting experience. When we were mixing the red and blue we were using in a sunset painting and added the yellow we had been using, it produced a slightly violet gray after a few minor adjustments.

The one student after the third minor adjustment said that he propably would have just blended in payne's gray. I told him that was fine, but when he started to add the mixed gray to his painting, he said "WOW." It just blends in so beautifully and truly feels like it belongs there. He was hocked.

Have some fun and try mixing your colors if you haven't all ready. It really is inspiring when you do it.

Judy :)

couturej
08-09-2009, 09:47 PM
Judy, great information! :)

tali
08-10-2009, 03:52 AM
Thanks Brush and Janet. The important thing when you want an equivelent, is to check the actual pigments being using in the paints. Dickblick.com has excellent pigment charts for each paint explaining the qualities and history of the pigments. I have to admit loyalty to them, because it makes life much simpler than looking up all sorts of makers websites to find out what pigments are in the paints. My basic palette is the same no matter what brand or types of oils I use. (Though I often modify my choice of "extra" convenience colors depending on the subject)--Cyan (pb15 or 15.3), Magenta or permanent rose(pr122, or pv19) and yellow (either Lemon PY3, Bismuth py184, Hansa/Arylide/Azo py74, or cad yellow pale py35). The important thing is the actual pigment and its number, not the name that varies from company to company. When I want to add saturation on the cool end I add phtalo green (either pg7 or pg36). Both these pigment are VERY strong. If I want more saturation in the warm colors I'll add a bright red (Irgazin red pr254) which is much nicer and cleaner than the cad reds. It's available from Holbien Duos as Cad red hue, or in traditional Winsor and Newton called Bright Red. Other than white, you really don't need any other colors besides the five I’ve listed, to achieve maximum gamut.

tali
08-10-2009, 06:29 AM
Great post Judy, and I wholeheartedly agree about your black mixtures. I posted my pasic limited palette on another thread, along with ratios, tints, neutrals, flesh tones, etc. All the colors on the chart were mixed with the three “primaries” (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow), and/or white. I’ll use the super dark violet (cyan and magenta) for my blacks, if I need them darker still then the phthalo green sure comes in handy. Janet, feel free to move my color post to this thread if needed.

couturej
08-10-2009, 08:06 AM
Thanks Talya I'm looking into having them moved over... very good idea. :)

judyfilarecki
08-10-2009, 09:25 AM
The important thing when you want an equivelent, is to check the actual pigments being using in the paints. Dickblick.com has excellent pigment charts for each paint explaining the qualities and history of the pigments.
Thanks for this great information, Tali.

I keep trying to impress on my students that red is not always red...now I have a source to refer them to to get actual information on the pigment content.

What I do is have them test what is on their pallet so they can see the variations, identify if a combination is not coming up how they think it should and then help them adjust for it. Sometimes they can just adjust by adding small amounts of another color they have. Sometime they buy a new color that when mixed works for them.

The best part of what I see happening with my classes is that the students are getting really excited about mixing their own colors, something that they have been very fearful of previously. I also admit to them, that I was very afraid of mixing colors and had difficulty with it until I started really looking into the theory behind it. As a self-taught artist, I had to do a lot of learning before I could do it to my satisfaction. All of my students are also have no formal traning so they are in the same place I was several years ago.

Judy

JimmyM
08-10-2009, 02:31 PM
Does anyone know where I can get a list of the chemical name, i.e., PB-XX and what it relates to? For example: PW-4 = zinc white, PW6=titanium white...etc

I know there is one out there somewhere?

couturej
08-10-2009, 04:06 PM
Hi Jimmy! Here's one site that is geared toward watercolors but the color theory can apply accross mediums. If you click one of the color groups at the top of the page you'll have a list of the pigment codes with chemical names, properties etc.

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html

This is a great site in general for color theory.

Here's another one that has great information with more of a focus on Color Index Names, CI Pigment Codes and Chemical Composition.

http://www.artiscreation.com/Color_index_names.html

tali
08-10-2009, 07:51 PM
Judy, it sounds like you are having so much fun with your classes. Mixing color can be such a mystery, but it seems that when artists learn how to do it, they unlock another creative door, making their paintings so much more lively and personal. When I grow up, I really want to do more teaching. There is nothing so satisfying as watching a student with the , "aha!" look on their face! :)

Jimmy, if you go dickblick.com, select the brand of paint you are interested, then click on the number link next to the color swatch. The link will take you to a literal color swatch (not a computerized one) that shows the paint in pure form, thinned, then tinted. There will be a link available on the top right called "pigment info" that lists the actual pigments and their numbers in that particular tube. It will state whether the pigment/s are natural or synthetic, the pigment history, alternate names, property, permanence, and toxicity. It's ENORMOUSLY educational--I've spent hours and hours comparing brands and learning about pigments.

Oh yeah, handprint.com is priceless for learning about pigments and color theory. Just keep in mind that it's geared toward watercolors, though much of the information applies across the board. But it's not "general" theory information, :wink2: it's VERY indepth--everything you wanted to know and more. I have been reading this site for years now and still haven't read all the way through. One should get a science degree upon completion and understanding of the site :lol: . It is an enormous undertaking that I'm sure has benefit thousands of artists. I am quite grateful.

DAK723
08-10-2009, 10:31 PM
My recommendation would be to use the most limited palette you feel comfortable with. The more tube colors you use, the harder it is to maintain color harmony, in my opinion.

I used to use more colors, but refined my palette to one yellow (cad yellow light), one red (cad red light), and usually one or two blues (Cobalt or Ultramarine) plus white. I will usually also add Sap Green, so I don't have to mix all the greens from scratch!

If I need a darker red, I may use venetian red. I also may add a violet of some sort. (All the colors mentioned are Grumbacher Max)

For flesh tones I use a cad red light, cad yellow light and white mixture, usually adding Sap Green or one of the blues (I also like Cerulean Blue for flesh mixtures) to neutralize or darken as needed. For a bit more variety of flesh tones, I may add yellow ochre, burnt sienna and venetian red to the palette, too.

That's my 2 cents worth.

couturej
08-11-2009, 07:55 AM
Thank you Don for the great information! :)

Here's the links for Dick Blick, as Talya mention this is a great resource for pigment info:

Grumbacher Max Artists' Oil Colors
http://www.dickblick.com/products/grumbacher-max-artists-oil-colors/

Holbein Duo Aqua Water Soluble Oils
http://www.dickblick.com/products/holbein-duo-aqua-water-soluble-oils/

Van Gogh H2Oil Color
http://www.dickblick.com/products/van-gogh-h2oil-color/

Winsor & Newton Artisan Water Mixable Oils
http://www.dickblick.com/products/winsor-and-newton-artisan-water-mixable-oils/

They don't carry the Lukas Berlin.

couturej
08-19-2009, 10:14 AM
Here's a list of all the single pigment colors available for the brands listed below with their pigment codes.

G=Grumbacher Max
H=Holbein Duo Aqua
V=Van Gogh H2Oil
W=W&N Artisan

H Phthalo Blue PB15 Phthalocyanine Blue
W Phthalo Blue, Red Shade PB15 Phthalocyanine Blue
G Phthalo Blue PB15:4 Phthalo Blue
V Phthalo Blue PB15:4 Phthalo Blue
G Prussian Blue PB27 Prussian Blue
H Prussian Blue PB27 Prussian Blue
V Prussian Blue PB27 Prussian Blue
W Prussian Blue PB27 Prussian Blue
G Cobalt Turquoise PB28 Cobalt Blue
H Cobalt Blue PB28 Cobalt Blue
H Cobalt Turquoise PB28 Cobalt Blue
W Cobalt Blue PB28 Cobalt Blue
G French Ultramarine Blue PB29 Ultramarine [Blue]
G Permanent Blue PB29 Ultramarine [Blue]
G Ultramarine Blue Deep PB29 Ultramarine [Blue]
G Ultramarine Red PB29 Ultramarine [Blue]
H Ultramarine Deep PB29 Ultramarine [Blue]
H Ultramarine Light PB29 Ultramarine [Blue]
W French Ultramarine PB29 Ultramarine [Blue]
G Cerulean Blue PB35 Cerulean Blue
H Cerulean Blue PB35 Cerulean Blue
W Cerulean Blue PB35 Cerulean Blue
G Cobalt Blue PB36 Cobalt Chromite Blue Green Spinel
G Cobalt Titanate Blue PB36 Cobalt Chromite Blue Green Spinel
G Indanthrone Blue PB60 Indanthrene Blue
H Indanthrene Blue PB60 Indanthrene Blue
G Lamp Black PBk6 Lamp Black
W Lamp Black PBk6 Lamp Black
G Ivory Black PBk9 Ivory Black
H Ivory Black PBk9 Ivory Black
V Ivory Black PBk9 Ivory Black
W Ivory Black PBk9 Ivory Black
G Mars Black PBk11 Mars Black
H Spinel Black PBk28 Black Spinel
H Shadow Green PBk31 Paliogen Black
G Burnt Umber PBr7 Burnt Umber
G Raw Sienna PBr7 Raw Sienna
H Burnt Sienna PBr7 Burnt Sienna
H Raw Umber PBr7 Raw Umber
W Burnt Umber PBr7 Burnt Umber
W Raw Umber PBr7 Raw Umber
H Imidazolone Brown PBr25 Hostaperm Brown HFR
G Phthalo Green (Blue Shade)PG7 Phthalo Green
H Phthalo Green PG7 Phthalo Green
V Phthalo Green PG7 Phthalo Green
W Phthalo Green, Blue Shade PG7 Phthalo Green
G Chromium Oxide GreenPG17 Chromium Oxide Green
G Viridian PG18 Viridian
W Viridian PG18 Viridian
H Cobalt Green Deep PG19 Cobalt Green
H Cobalt Green Light PG19 Cobalt Green
G Phthalo Green (Yellow Shade) PG36 Phthalo Green
H Phthalo Green Yellow Shade PG36 Phthalo Green
W Phthalo Green, Yellow Shade PG36 Phthalo Green
G Cadmium Barium OrangePO20 Cadmium Orange
G Cadmium Barium Red DeepPO20 Cadmium Orange
G Cadmium Barium Red LightPO20 Cadmium Orange
G Cadmium Barium Red MediumPO20 Cadmium Orange
G Carmium Barium VermilionPO20 Cadmium Orange
G Cadmium Barium Yellow OrangePO20 Cadmium Orange
H Cadmium Yellow DeepPO20 Cadmium Orange
H Imidazolone OrangePO36 Benzimidazolone Orange
W Cadmium Orange HuePO43 Perinone Orange
G Quinacridone OrangePO48 Quinacridone Gold
V Alizarin Crimson Madder LakePR23 Naphthol Carmine
G Alizarin CrimsonPR83 Alizarin Crimson
H Alizarin CrimsonPR83 Alizarin Crimson
G Indian RedPR101 Red Iron Oxide
G Venetian RedPR101 Red Iron Oxide
V Burnt SiennaPR101 Red Iron Oxide
V Light Oxide RedPR101 Red Iron Oxide
W Burnt SiennaPR101 Red Iron Oxide
W Indian RedPR101 Red Iron Oxide
H Cadmium OrangePR108 Cadmium Red
H Cadmium RedPR108 Cadmium Red
H Cadmium Red DeepPR108 Cadmium Red
W Cadmium Red DarkPR108 Cadmium Red
W Cadmium Red LightPR108 Cadmium Red
W Cadmium Red MediumPR108 Cadmium Red
G Grumbacher Red (Naphthol)PR112 Naphthol Red
V Naphthol Red MediumPR112 Naphthol Red
G Thio VioletPR122 Quinacridone Magenta
H Rose VioletPR122 Quinacridone Magenta
W MagentaPR122 Quinacridone Magenta
H Rose DorePR144 Chromophthal Red
H Cadmium Red Deep HuePR170 Naphthol Red
H Cadmium Red Purple HuePR170 Naphthol Red
H Naphthol RedPR170 Naphthol Red
H Anthraquinone RedPR177 Anthraquinone Red
V CarminePR177 Anthraquinone Red
G Perylene Maroon (Anthraquinone)PR179 Perylene Maroon
W Permanent Alizarin CrimsonPR206 Quinacridone Pyrrolidine Red
H Quinacridone ScarletPR209 Quinacridone Red
HCadmium Red HuePR254 Irgazin Red
H Mineral VioletPV16 Manganese Violet
G Phthalo Red RosePV19 Quinacridone Violet
G Quinacridone RedPV19 Quinacridone Violet
H Quinacridone RedPV19 Quinacridone Violet
H Quinacridone VioletPV19 Quinacridone Violet
V Quinacridone RosePV19 Quinacridone Violet
W Permanent RosePV19 Quinacridone Violet
G Dioxazine PurplePV23 Dioxazine Violet
H Dioxazine VioletPV23 Dioxazine Violet
W Dioxazine PurplePV23 Dioxazine Violet
H Blue VioletPV37 Dioxazine Violet
H Cobalt VioletPV47 Cobalt Lithium Violet Phosphate
G Zinc WhitePW4 Zinc White
V Zinc WhitePW4 Zinc White
H Permanent WhitePW6 Titanium White
H Titanium WhitePW6 Titanium White
V Titanium WhitePW6 Titanium White
W Lemon YellowPY3 Hansa Yellow 10G
H Cadmium YellowPY35 Cadmium Yellow
H Cadmium Yellow LemonPY35 Cadmium Yellow
WCadmium Yellow LightPY35 Cadmium Yellow
G Cadmium Barium Yellow DeepPY35:1 Cadmium-Barium Yellow
G Cadmium Barium Yellow LightPY35:1 Cadmium-Barium Yellow
G Cadmium Barium Yellow MediumPY35:1 Cadmium-Barium Yellow
G Cadmium-Barium Yellow PalePY35:1 Cadmium-Barium Yellow
H Yellow OchrePY42 Yellow Ochre
V Yellow OchrePY42 Yellow Ochre
W Yellow OchrePY42 Yellow Ochre
H Raw SiennaPY43 Yellow Ochre
H Yellow Ochre NaturalPY43 Yellow Ochre
G Nickel Titanate YellowPY53 Nickel Titanium Yellow
W Cadmium Yellow HuePY65 Hansa Yellow
H Benzidine YellowPY83 Diarylide Yellow 83
V Indian YellowPY110 Isoindolinone Yellow
V Azo Yellow LightPY154 Benzimidazolone Yellow
V Azo Yellow MediumPY154 Benzimidazolone Yellow
H Imidazolone YellowPY180 Benzimidazolone Yellow

couturej
08-19-2009, 10:52 AM
Toxicity information:

PB15Phthalo Blue - Phthalo Blues have no significant hazards, although those made before 1982 contained some PCBs (polychlorinated biphenyls).

PB15:4Phthalo Blue - Phthalo Blues have no significant hazards, although those made before 1982 contained some PCBs (polychlorinated biphenyls).

PB27Prussian Blue - Prussian Blue is moderately toxic if ingested. It will emit toxic hydrogen cyanide gas if heated, exposed to ultraviolet radiation, or treated with acid.

PB28Cobalt Blue - Cobalt salts are toxic. Avoid respiratory and skin contact. Soluble cobalt may cause irritation and allergic reaction through contact with skin. It is considered a possible carcinogen.

PB29Ultramarine [Blue] - Ultramarine has no significant hazards.

PB35 Cerulean Blue - Cerulean Blue is moderately toxic if inhaled or ingested and slightly toxic if it comes into contact with skin

PB36Cobalt Chromite Blue Green Spinel - Cobalt salts are toxic when ingested or inhaled, and slightly toxic on contact with the skin. Evidence of Chromium(III) carcinogenicity is inconclusive. Chromium(III) salts appear in greenish pigments. Chromium(VI) salts, which appear in yellowish pigments, have been proven to cause cancer. WARNING: This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer.

PB60 Indanthrene Blue - Indanthrene Blue varies in its acute toxicity, though toxicity is generally slight.

PBk6Lamp Black - Lamp Black is slightly toxic by skin contact and inhalation. It is a possible human carcinogen

PBk9Ivory Black - Ivory Black has no significant hazards.

PBk11Mars Black - Mars Black has no significant hazards and is the only major black pigment considered non-toxic.

PBk31Paliogen Black n/a

PBr7Burnt Sienna - Burnt Sienna has no significant hazards.

PBr7Burnt Umber - Burnt Umber itself is considered non-toxic. If contaminated by manganese compounds, it may be highly toxic if inhaled and moderately toxic if ingested.

PBr7Raw Sienna - Raw Sienna has no significant hazards.

PBr7Raw Umber - Raw Umber itself is considered non-toxic. If contaminated by manganese compounds, it may be highly toxic if inhaled and moderately toxic if ingested.

PBr25Hostaperm Brown HFR n/a

PG7Phthalo Green - Phthalo Green has no significant hazards, but it contained PCBs (polychlorinated biphenyls) until 1982.

PG17Chromium Oxide Green - Chromium Oxide Green is slightly toxic. Evidence of Chromium(III) carcinogenicity is inconclusive. Chromium(III) salts appear in greenish pigments such as PG17. Chromium(VI) salts, which appear in yellowish pigments, have been proven to cause cancer.

PG18Viridian - Viridian is slightly toxic.

PG19Cobalt Green - Cobalt Green is moderately toxic if inhaled or ingested. It is slightly toxic if it comes into contact with skin.

PG36Phthalo Green - Phthalo Green has no significant hazards, but it contained PCBs (polychlorinated biphenyls) until 1982.

PO20Cadmium Orange- Cadmium Orange is a known human carcinogen. It is extremely toxic if inhaled and slightly toxic if ingested.

PO36Benzimidazolone Orange - Benzimidazolone Orange is not considered toxic.

PO43Perinone Orange - Perinone Orange is not considered toxic.

PO48Quinacridone Gold - Quinacridone gold is not considered toxic. Overexposure to quinacridone pigments may cause skin irritation. Quinicridone pigments contain a compound found to be a skin, eye, and respiratory irritant.

PR83Alizarin Crimson- Alizarin Crimson can be slightly toxic if it comes into contact with skin and may cause some allergies. There is no significant acute toxicity

PR101Mars Orange - Mars Orange has no significant hazards.

PR101Red Iron Oxide - Red iron oxide has no significant hazards.

PR108Cadmium Red - Cadmium Red is a known human carcinogen. It is extremely toxic if inhaled and slightly toxic if ingested.

PR112Naphthol Red - Naphthol Reds are not considered toxic.

PR122 Quinacridone MagentaQuinacridone Magenta has no acute hazards. Overexposure to quinacridone pigments may cause skin irritation. Quinicridone pigments contain a compound found to be a skin, eye, and respiratory irritant.

PR144Chromophthal Red n/a

PR170 Naphthol Red - Naphthol Reds are not considered toxic.

PR177Anthraquinone Red - Anthraquinone Red has no significant acute toxicity.

PR179Perylene Maroon - Perylene Maroon has no significant acute toxicity. Its long term hazards are currently unknown.

PR206Permanent Alizarin Crimson - Quinacridone Pyrrolidine Red has no known acute hazards. Overexposure to quinacridone pigments may cause skin irritation. Quinicridone pigments contain a compound found to be a skin, eye, and respiratory irritant.

PR209Quinacridone Red - Quinacridone Red has no known acute hazards. Overexposure to quinacridone pigments may cause skin irritation. Quinicridone pigments contain a compound found to be a skin, eye, and respiratory irritant.

PR254Irgazin Red - According to the Australian government's Ministry on Health and Aging, "The notified chemical exhibited low oral and dermal toxicity in rats, did not exhibit toxic effects when administered orally to rats for 28 days, was not a skin irritant in rabbits, was not a skin sensitiser in guinea pigs, was not mutagenic in bacteria and was not clastogenic in CHO cells in culture. However, the notified chemical was a slight eye irritant in rabbits. On the basis of submitted data, the notified chemical would not be classsified as hazardous in accordance with Approved Criteria for Classifying Hazardous Substances."

PV16Manganese Violet - Manganese Violet is highly toxic if inhaled and moderately toxic if ingested.

PV19Quinacridone Violet - Quinacridone Violet has no known acute hazards. Overexposure to quinacridone pigments may cause skin irritation. Quinicridone pigments contain a compound found to be a skin, eye, and respiratory irritant.

PV23Dioxazine Violet n/a

PV37Dioxazine Violet n/a

PV47Cobalt Lithium Violet Phosphate - Cobalt lithium phosphate, like other cobalt salts, is toxic through ingestion and inhalation.

PW4Zinc WhiteZinc White is moderately toxic if ingested and slightly toxic if inhaled.

PW5LithophoneLithopone is not toxic.

PW6Tianium White - Titanium dioxide is highly stable and is regarded as completely non-toxic. Animal studies give no indiciation that it is absorbed biologically, even after long periods of exposure. The primary safety concern is with inhalation of fine pigment dust particles. Titanium White, if inhaled in large amounts over the course of several years, may cause a benign pneumoconiosis that is visible on x-rays. The National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) considers fine titanium dioxide particles, if inhaled, to be a human carcinogen. The primary concern for artists is to avoid exposure to fine particulate dust from raw pigments.

PW6:1Buff Titanium - Titanium dioxide and iron oxide are naturally occuring and are abundant in the Earth's crust. Both are considered non-toxic. Particle sizes tend to be larger in Unbleached Titanium than for titanium dioxide pigments used in white paints.

PY3Hansa Yellow 10G - Hansa Yellow has no significant acute hazards, though its chronic hazards have not been well studied.

PY35Cadmium Yellow - Cadmium Yellow is a known human carcinogen. It can be hazardous if chronically inhaled or ingested.

PY35:1 Cadmium-Barium Yellow - Cadmium Yellow is a known human carcinogen. It is extremely toxic if inhaled and slightly toxic if ingested. Barium sulfate is extremely insoluble in water, and thus is not biologically active. It is used medically as a contrast medium in radiological procedures.

PY42Yellow Ochre - Yellow Ochre is non-toxic unless it contains manganese.

PY43Yellow Ochre - Yellow Ochre is non-toxic unless it contains manganese.

PY53Nickel Titanium Yellow - Nickel Titanium Yellow is not considered toxic.

PY65Hansa Yellow - Hansa Yellow has no significant acute hazards, though its chronic hazards have not been well studied.

PY83Diarylide Yellow 83 - Diarylide Yellow has no significant acute hazards, but chronic hazards have not been well studied.

PY150Nickel Azo Yellow - Nickel azo yellow pigment is mildly toxic, and is often labeled as hazardous. Avoid respiratory and skin exposure to pigment dust. It should be disposed of properly with other hazardous wastes, not washed down the sink. However, the contribution of artist pigments to levels of nickel metal complexes in the environment is almost insignificant. Nickel is often present in the environment naturally. Nickel is used heavily in steelmaking, and in many industrial processes and products.

PY154Benzimidazolone Yellow - Benzimidazolone Yellow is not considered toxic.

PY180Benzimidazolone Yellow - Benzimidazolone Yellow 180 is not considereed toxic.

JPQ
08-26-2009, 01:11 AM
I don't like to use black in my painting because I feel it deadens the colors(unless I'm painting a chickadee that is black and white.) I use burnt umber and ultramarine blue and that makes a very good black. I don't know the exact ratio, so you'll have to experiment with it.

When I want a very dark color or gray based on the colors on my palette, I use complementary colors.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Aug-2009/190342-red-green.jpg This is an example of cadmium red and phthalo green(blue shade). The ratio of color is 3 parts red to 1 part green. It gives you a very dark color which, when white is added, gives you a very nice gray. If you change the ratio, it will swing toward a dark green-brown or red-brown shade. The best way for you to find out what happens is to try it. When I used a sap green(yellow-green) with the cad red, it produced a very yellow-orange brown.

For people not used to mixing their own colors, I have more examples of this using other colors on my website
http://www.filarecki.com/complementary-colors.html

I've been having so much fun working with mixing my own colors and teaching my students about it. It has added a whole new dimension to my painting experience. When we were mixing the red and blue we were using in a sunset painting and added the yellow we had been using, it produced a slightly violet gray after a few minor adjustments.

The one student after the third minor adjustment said that he propably would have just blended in payne's gray. I told him that was fine, but when he started to add the mixed gray to his painting, he said "WOW." It just blends in so beautifully and truly feels like it belongs there. He was hocked.

Have some fun and try mixing your colors if you haven't all ready. It really is inspiring when you do it.

Judy :)

what cadmium red used i have one with pigment orange 20 and two with pigment red 108. based what i see in picture i going test with po20 in watercolours.

couturej
08-27-2009, 08:04 AM
Hi JPQ! Judy uses the W&N Artisan WMO; therefore, the pigment code would be the PR108. :)

couturej
08-27-2009, 08:57 AM
Artistic Color Wheel
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Aug-2009/84697-Artistic_Color_Wheel.jpg
Scientific Color Wheel
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Aug-2009/84697-Scientific_Color_Wheel.jpg

I'm just wondering if the Artistic Color Wheel or the Scientific Color Wheel is more accurate when it comes to both mixing complements and visual complements.

dbclemons
08-27-2009, 09:10 AM
...Dick Blick, ...
They don't carry the Lukas Berlin.

You can find the pigment ID information for Lukas Berlin paints in this PDF file (http://www.lukas.eu/WEB_GB/Broschueren/Leaflets/WERB2049_Berlin_GB_Internet.pdf) from their website. Here's a cropped version of that:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Aug-2009/5224-berlinPIDs.jpg

couturej
08-27-2009, 09:39 AM
Thank you so much David for sharing the information on Lukas Berlin! They do have some new colors I think I'm missing the Alizarin Crimson but here are the additonal colors I have for Lukas Berlin:

- Sap Green PY42, PB83, PG7
- Prussian Blue PB15:1, PBk7
- Naples Yellow PW5, PY3, PY42, PR101

Not very many single pigments in this brand but I love them.

dbclemons
08-27-2009, 10:03 AM
Their "Prussian" blue is no more Prussian than I am. I would appreciate it if they labeled their tubes the same way they do on their website by adding the word "hue." If they're going to make up colors they might as well make up names too. And why is burnt umber not a PBr7? Silly.

Their paint quality isn't too bad but the range is too small and has too many mixtures.

couturej
08-27-2009, 10:48 AM
Their "Prussian" blue is no more Prussian than I am..

:lol: :lol:

I was wondering about the Burnt Umber too. I can understand wanting to have hues available due to toxicity issues but PBr7 is non-toxic. I agree that the range is too small and their are too many mixtures. They do work well with the Holbein Duo Aquas and W&N Artisan brands. I wouldn't use them exclusively.

Bright Eyes
08-28-2009, 07:48 PM
I took Tali's workshop on modern colors. Those colors really do mix up to make any color. I was truly impressed. That lady knows her colors!

I've checked out handprint. So much information there its hard to handle. But I found this book which has easy to read good format with lots of little pictures to explain things:thumbsup:

"The Painters Handbook" it has the numbers for each pigment, generic name, chemical class, type, melting point, stability, lightfastness, and anything else you would probably want to know about each individual pigment in an easy to read table format. Also has tables on drying times of each pigment:thumbsup: Good book if you want to know the how and why about any type of painting medium, supports, varnishing, or really just about anything and everything about art supplies. Here is a link to it on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Painters-Handbook-Mark-David-Gottsegen/dp/0823034968/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251503147&sr=8-1

couturej
08-31-2009, 01:58 PM
Bright Eyes, thank you for sharing this book. I have alot of books on color theory but I don't have that one. Looks like a great book! :)

Bright Eyes
08-31-2009, 02:32 PM
Bright Eyes, thank you for sharing this book. I have alot of books on color theory but I don't have that one. Looks like a great book! :)

Your welcome:) I like this one because it has easy to read tables. Good for quick reference.

judyfilarecki
09-01-2009, 09:07 AM
Hi JPQ! Judy uses the W&N Artisan WMO; therefore, the pigment code would be the PR108. :) Thanks Janet for clarifying that. I'm bad I guess. I don't pay attention to the color codes. I just experiment with what I have on my palate. I just realized the example I showed was with acrylics so the code might be different. I will have to try it with the WN WS oils and see if it works the same. I'll let you know... Judy:o

couturej
09-01-2009, 09:26 AM
Hi Judy! Your not bad. I don't always pay that much attention to color codes. Whatever works. Hands on mixing is always the best way for me to find out what works. I know that I use to use a mix of Alizarin Crimson and Viridian in Acrylics for my blacks but I don't get the same results with my Water Mixable Oils when I mix the Holbein Alizarin Crimson with the Lukas Berlin Veridian. So I guess their can be differences. Looking forward to your update on whether the mixture works the same with the WN WS oils. Thank you for doing this.:)

No rush... let your hand rest.

dcorc
09-01-2009, 10:31 AM
I don't always pay that much attention to color codes. Whatever works.

There's actually a lot to be said in favour of this.

The pigment codes PR108, PY42 etc tell you the chemical nature of the pigment - they don't tell you its exact colour- and in fact several different colours can all have the same code - for example, look at the wide range of different colours all of which are PR101.

They can be useful in telling you what you are getting for your money (for example, whether its a real cadmium yellow or a "hue").

Furthermore, the way colours appear in masstone is usually what governs how "hue" replacements are formulated - they may not necessarily also handle similarly in their mixing behaviour and in glazes, for example.

The colour that a particular paint appears to be is dependent on its reflectivity-curve (those are available on handprint - and incidentally, that's an amazing site).

When we look at different paints which are made of different materials, we can see these as matching, but they can actually have different reflectivity curves which look the same to our eyes (due to the limitations of our three classes of photoreceptor cells) - such matches are known as metameric matches (and our ability to paint in colour is dependant on them, really). However, they can result in paints with similar masstone mixing differently. The trouble with reflectance curves is that they are virtually impossible to interpret as a practical guide to paint-mixing.

I'd suggest that your "whatever works" approach, Janet, actually has a lot to recommend it - the real issue in painting is not what colours/paints you start from, but correctly identifying the exact colour you want to end up with.

For example, the basic range of tones in flesh-tints can be mixed in any of a variety of ways - basically they mainly sit in a range of low-chroma oranges to pinks, and could be mixed from earth-colours, cadmiums, or organics, using any of these to arrive at final tints which can't be distinguished from each other.

Dave

kevinwueste
09-01-2009, 10:53 AM
dave - thanks for the great post!

couturej
09-01-2009, 11:39 AM
Thank you Dave! Great information!:)

An understanding of color theory does help immensely in getting the results you want. Being able to visualize what is happening as you mix will save a lot of time, frustration and paint. In order to achieve high chroma colors it's beneficial to understand to avoid using colors which contain the third primary in your mix.

I agree that pigment codes don't tell you the exact color and using them in this way would lead down the wrong path. It will only give you a vague idea as to where the color falls on the spectrum. It's useful if you're wanting to work in single pigments only as they do tend to give you more predictable and cleaner mixes. I do use colors that have a mixture of pigments and I need to take into consideration how they will affect my mix. Pigment codes are also useful if you have concerns regarding toxicity.

the real issue in painting is not what colours/paints you start from, but correctly identifying the exact colour you want to end up with.


Exactly!:)

judyfilarecki
09-02-2009, 09:15 AM
Thanks for the insight, Dave. It helps to have a better understanding of why certain colors work better than others.

Janet In order to achieve high chroma colors it's beneficial to understand to avoid using colors which contain the third primary in your mix. I always paint so much by instinct and visible results, that I never really thought about this, but it is a good thing to point out to my students and it would have definitely reduced the early frustrations when I was first painting.
Judy

couturej
09-03-2009, 08:14 AM
Judy, you obviously have great instincts for mixing as your paintings are beautiful! Your students are lucky to have you as a teacher. I think for me it's a little bit of both instinct and visualizing what is happening on the color wheel as I mix. Understanding mixing complements is beneficial as well to find an effective way to neutralize a color.

I find the split primary palette works very well for me to keep in mind which way a color leans and control my mixes. I usually choose a yellow that leans toward orange, a yellow that leans toward green, a blue that leans toward green, a blue that leans toward violet, a red thad leans toward violet and a red that leans toward orange. I do use secondary colors orange, green and violet for convenience but I mostly mix my own. I also use Burnt Umber, Yellow Ochre and Burnt Sienna again for convenience. Sometimes Ivory Black but Black can be a difficult color to control. I rarely use just one color and prefer a mix.

I think my methods may be a little unorthodox but I stopped laying out my colors on the palette when I'm painting. I just choose two colors to start with and one to nutralize that color. From their those initial mixes is what I use to create most of the colors needed in the painting. Adding a new color as needed but trying as much as possible to use what's already on my palette to get the color I want. I also use either Ultramarine Blue and either Burnt Sienna or Burnt Umber to create a neutral pile for areas where I need a really good dark color.

judyfilarecki
09-03-2009, 08:33 AM
I just choose two colors to start with and one to nutralize that color. From their those initial mixes is what I use to create most of the colors needed in the painting. Adding a new color as needed but trying as much as possible to use what's already on my palette to get the color I want. Hi Janet, that is pretty much the same thing I do. You waste less paint, mix colors that work together better, and tend to stick to a smaller number of initial colors within your painting yet being able to produce all you want.
Judy

couturej
09-04-2009, 09:10 AM
Hi Judy! I'm glad that my methods aren't as unusual as I thought. All the reasons you pointed out is exactly why I started doing it this way. :)

Dana Design
09-04-2009, 04:34 PM
Which black is the most blue-black? I need to get some!


Callie


I use Lamp Black in regular oils. I should think the same coloration would hold true for WMO but not sure. Take a look at this thread for details:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581447

Shirl Parker
09-04-2009, 05:00 PM
That thread leads you to brands that are not WMO, so not really a solution. Who we need to hear from is someone who has all the blacks in the WMO lines, and some sample color charts. Otherwise, each person who has a different brand WMO black, post some samples of the one they have and we can gather them all together.

This brings the next question, what about mixing black from other colors. In other media, like watercolor, black tube paint is usually a pretty dead color compared those you mix yourself--a blue, red, green black for example. This would all be appropriate for a separate thread.

couturej
09-04-2009, 05:41 PM
Callie, You're are sneeky completing two challenges with one painting. I think Bob caught you using blue. You better hide. :lol: Ok I'll try it with a small lion I think that should work with the colors I have to work with. :)

Dana, that's a really interesting thread. :)

Shirl, I like your idea of charts of black. So everyone pull out your blacks and lets head on over to Lets talk about color thread. I only have Ivory Black in the Lukas Berlin which has a blue undertone and Payne's Gray in the Holbein which has a black masstone but definately a blue undertone. But the charts should help to see exactly what you would get. :)

Callie, I know you use Hobein so maybe the Payne's Gray would be a good choice.:)

dcorc
09-04-2009, 05:56 PM
That thread leads you to brands that are not WMO, so not really a solution.

While that thread discusses traditional oils rather than WMO, I'd suggest it still contains info that is likely to be useful, since the colour is more dependant on the pigment than on the binder - and I don't see that formulations which render the oils WM are likely to make such a difference as to overwhelm that factor (however...)


Who we need to hear from is someone who has all the blacks in the WMO lines, and some sample color charts.

Agreed, this is the ideal.


Otherwise, each person who has a different brand WMO black, post some samples of the one they have and we can gather them all together.

yes, but with the proviso that its very difficult to compare colours precisely between different places, without some sort of means of calibration (which is why I, and others are interested in using Munsell, for example).

I'm all in favour of people doing practical assessments of their paints :thumbsup:

This brings the next question, what about mixing black from other colors. In other media, like watercolor, black tube paint is usually a pretty dead color compared those you mix yourself--a blue, red, green black for example. This would all be appropriate for a separate thread.

Black is black because it has a very low reflectance across all the visible wavelengths. If there is some slight variation across wavelengths, this will be revealed as it "leaning" towards some hue or other - most blacks tend in reality to be very low-value, low-chroma blues or purple-blues.

If you are mixing a black, you are probably creating a paint which is likely to lean one way or another somewhat, and which is difficult to assess because of how dark it is - it may be black, say, or really a very low-value low-chroma brown or blue (or green, etc). You may find this "wobble" and variation (if you keep remixing) a desirable property.

I think there are differences between use of blacks in oils and in watercolours, and personally, I'd like to suggest that its probably better not to think of a "pure" black as a "dead" black, but merely one that doesn't happen to suit your purpose for it. (If you'd like, I can copy and split this discussion in our posts out into a new thread).

Edit - we've cross-posted, Janet :)

Dave

couturej
09-04-2009, 06:04 PM
Dave, makes a good point regarding comparing colors from different places without some means of calibration. It should give us a rough idea of the udertone. Thank you Dave!

Shirl Parker
09-04-2009, 06:28 PM
I think moving the posts is a fine idea.

dcorc
09-04-2009, 06:40 PM
Done :)

dbclemons
09-04-2009, 11:24 PM
One thing that's mentioned by W&N in their FAQ about Artisans is that water can cause a lighter shade to appear in some colors that will then return to normal after the water evaporates. This is caused, they say, by the emulsification that happens, and they don't mention any particular colors. I've yet to experience anything like that, but then I rarely add water while painting. I was wondering if others have seen this happen. Other than that possibility, I would be very surprised if any pigment behaved differently in these paints than in other oils, or other mediums for that matter.

Regarding blacks, most of these brands only carry ivory (PBk9.) Holbein's ivory is actually a mix with carbon (PBk7) from my notes. Holbein also used to carry mars black, but has discontinued that one, apparantly, in favor of spinel (PBk28) which has similar properties to lamp. I have an Artisan ivory and a Max lamp as my WMO blacks. I use them occasionally but not often. Holbein's sepia and van dyke are also nicely dark. Their diox. violet or viridian (which is actualy phtalo green) make good dark mixtures also.

dspinks
09-05-2009, 12:16 AM
I've noticed the color shift using water to mix, but it was very slight and it was never a bother for me. It doesn't happen with the Artisan thinner.

Debra

couturej
09-05-2009, 09:42 AM
David, Great information on black. Thank you! :)

I have my swatches completed for my blacks. I did include Paynes Gray which technically isn't a black but it was the black of the old masters so I thought it would be ok. Once they dry I'll scan them. I only have the Lukas Berlin Ivory Black and the Holbein Paynes Grey so sorry it won't be much of a contribution. :)

dcorc
09-05-2009, 12:55 PM
Paynes Gray which technically isn't a black but it was the black of the old masters

Errm - sorry, but - invented by, and named after, an 18thC watercolourist, William Payne, actually. Not used by the Old Masters (who used one or more of - bone black, charcoal grey/black, lamp black, true ivory black).

Note also that before the availability of synthetic ultramarine, (usually a component of Payne's grey), the equivalent "natural" colour, lapis lazuli, was hugely expensive.

Dave

couturej
09-07-2009, 01:44 PM
Thank you Dave for correcting me. I'm sorry my memory isn't as good as it use to be. Just getting use to it. The palette that I was thinking of was a simulation of an old master palette. This is the thread where I had read about it: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34839