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impressionist2
08-23-2002, 09:12 AM
I just finished putting together eleven canvas/panels for plein air.

Recently started toning the canvas with a raw umber/burnt sienna mix. Love it.

But, I am wondering what your favorite toning recipe is? Or do you still like to paint on a white canvas?

Renee

LarrySeiler
08-24-2002, 12:48 AM
this is I'm sure quite individual and personal for many. Some like to tone warm to get a warm mood right off. Some like a neutral temp so that warms and cools show up right away.

I tend to mix black into my white gesso, sometimes adding a bit of umber to warm it a tad. I like a gray surface in general. One that is neutral as far as temperature is concerned because I do not always know ahead of time what scene is going to be earmarked for a panel, and I want to respond more naturally to the scene at that moment. One that allows my light and dark values to be easily noted right off as well. So...Yes...that white surface is so dark, and does not favor capturing the light values 'till later. White also has a cold temp to it, and thus it takes a bit of filling in the surface before warm and cools can be balanced.

Still...when I rag in a mass for which acts as an underpainting for that spacial element that mass has its own mood or toning for which I built up on top of....alla prima.

Toning can be a means to steer a unity into the mix right off, but such use necessitates that it has priority throughout the whole of the painting. In which case, if you are painting plein air you may have to ignore what you are "actually" seeing to suggest what instead will fit the mood you are hoping to create. That's alright, and again it just depends on an artist's personality and what motivates them to paint.


Larry

Patrick1
08-26-2002, 05:49 AM
Larry, you said "White also has a cold temp to it...". Could you explain why...I thought white is a neutral. I know that in mixes, whites make other colors bluer, but you seem to be talking about white by itself.

I also sometimes see blacks described as cool. Again, ignoring their slight bias, which makes no black a pure neutral, I don't understand how they can be thought of as anything but neutral (obviously I'm missing a very important principle of practical color application).

Thanks for any replies Larry or anyone else.

impressionist2
08-28-2002, 06:07 AM
Okay, now I am getting worried. Should I be toning in a grey? Dark Grey? Light grey?

Hmmmmm, my colors "pop out" like crazy with my, I guess warmish tone, but Larry's argument against a warm background sounds valid.

Wonder if just raw umber would be better.

Painting-"The more you know, the less you know you know.":)

Renee

Keith Russell
08-28-2002, 11:19 AM
Greetings:

Not sure 'toning' is the right term.

A 'tone' is what results when a base colour is mixed with black.

Isn't this thread simply asking what colour works best when working on a coloured ground?

Keith.

Geoff
08-28-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2

Recently started toning the canvas with a raw umber/burnt sienna mix. Love it.

Renee

So you love it, why change ??

Wayne Gaudon
08-28-2002, 09:14 PM
I emailed this artist and he said he uses a dull green or brown as both colors lend themselves to landscapes .. says that the biggest reason is that a light yellow on white is still darker than the white and that will really mess with your mind and your relations and values will be the worst for it .. this guy paints realistic style and wow .. one heck of a good artist ..

here is a sample of one of his pictures.
Kit Gentry

impressionist2
08-29-2002, 06:55 AM
Keith wrote: Isn't this thread simply asking what colour works best when working on a coloured ground?


Keith, Yes. It's just that everyone always call it, "toning your canvas".

A 'tone' is what results when a base colour is mixed with black.

True, but is it possible there is some black in the traditional raw or burnt umber used to "tone"? Sure looks like it could be. Hence, the term, "toning". Could be.


Wayne wrote: says that the biggest reason is that a light yellow on white is still darker than the white and that will really mess with your mind and your relations and values will be the worst for it .. this guy paints realistic style and wow .. one heck of a good artist ..

Sovek's books have wonderful chapters on the "local" color of an object and the value ranges of each particular object. It's fascinating stuff.

Wayne, That landscape looks so real, it's surreal! He's terrific. Renee

Wayne Gaudon
08-29-2002, 08:15 AM
You gotta figure he knows what he is talking about. I am going to tone a bunch of mine dull green and dull brown for next weeks outing.

LarrySeiler
09-02-2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Domer
Larry, you said "White also has a cold temp to it...". Could you explain why...I thought white is a neutral. I know that in mixes, whites make other colors bluer, but you seem to be talking about white by itself.

White technically, is a tint...black is a shade. White tints a color, black shades a color.

A lot of painters think that by adding white, they make a color not just lighter, but brighter. However..."bright" is an intensity, a chroma that is boosted by the illumination of the sun. Sun does not carry a "white" spectrum...but leads toward yellows, oranges and reds.

You see green pines when hit with low direct sun appear orangish...which is always quite awesome to see.

When we think of a color as brighter, it doesn't get lighter it gets more intense.

Now....it is more obvious perhaps up here in the northern part of the country. Snow is what we think of as white up here, and snow is cold.

When we teach simple color theory to young people...we'll mention that yellow, orange, and red are warm colors...and represent the character of the sun. "What do you know in nature that is cold?" I'll ask...

Up here, its a fresh lake.

I ask them if when they are hot, would they like to dive into a body of water that appeared yellow and orange? "NO way!" is always the response.

Children seem to have a grasp that snow is cold, snow is white, white is cold.

Well....it seems to have that affect in color mixing as well. When you add white to a cadmium medium yellow to make it lighter, it does indeed get lighter, but it fails to appear as though it were being bathed in direct warm sunlight. Yellow...being a primary color requires an actual hue that is by its own nature lighter, but indeed warmer. Add white to a yellow green. That yellow green no longer looks warmer. It looks lighter, yes...but not warmer.

to get warmer...you have to pick a warmer lighter by nature yellow pigment, and warmer green or warmer blue. Blue is cold as a color...but Ultramarine is a bit more toward the violet spectrum, while Phtalo blue is more toward the greener spectrum. What makes green? Ans- yellow plus blue. Thus because of the yellow....that makes phtalo warmer than Ultramarine.

Now....that may be debatable, as I've read some refer to Ultramarine as warmer than Phtalo...but, I'm like..."wwwhHAAT???"

That's now how it works on the palette for me!

At any rate...Naples Yellow has quite a satisfying light value. When you mix it with a color...that new color's tendency is to act as though its been tinted, yet...in a more warmer way.

Also....when the sun is at its lower horizontal angle proximity, it casts a warmer yellow/orange glow on things. Thus, using Naples Yellow as a type of white, having inherently a form of yellow in itself takes on that characteristic of sunlight.

If you were to place a large white sheet out during the high sun of the day or it will appear whiter, but as the sun lowers...that white takes on the glow of the sun, and does not any longer appear white. It has warmed up. If you place it in the open, but hidden from the sun....it will reflect light from the bluer sky above, and appear quite cool.

At any rate...I suppose I'll have to answer this about a dozen times before I can explain it eloquently enough. All I know, is that from painting experience...white makes lighter, but NOT brighter!" Brighter is a characteristic of the sun's influence, and the sun leans toward the warm color spectrum of the color wheel.

White is absence of the sun's influence. Put it in a painting when you are wanting to suggest the sun's presence, and it minimizes the effect...with exception of intending to represent "glare." Such as water glare, or blasts of direct high in the sky sun off snow.


I also sometimes see blacks described as cool. Again, ignoring their slight bias, which makes no black a pure neutral, I don't understand how they can be thought of as anything but neutral (obviously I'm missing a very important principle of practical color application).

Thanks for any replies Larry or anyone else.

A neutral is a mix of any colors that grey each other. When you mix a blue with an orange, but no longer detect the blue of the mix....no longer the orange of the mix, you have a perfect mid neutral. (complementaries). White might be used to tint this mix, thus lighten the values.

If you want to warm up that neutral....you would elect to allow a bit of the orange to show thru. If you want to cool that neutral, you allow more of the blue to hint its presence.

To grey down a color, you add a bit of its opposite or complement. Artists often speak of this, but really...its in degrees. To "neutralize" a color...is to gray it down. That might be grayed down a little; a lot....etc;

Black....is absence of light. When we think of light, we often think of the sun. The sun is warm. Where we have an absence of sun, we have an absence of its warmth. It is instead cool. Since black is a complete absence of the sun....it has a complete absence of the sun's warmth. For that reason, I'm sure....people will think of black as "cool."

However....I see black as simply too harsh. A harshness and contrast I don't really see in nature.

Black could be used to shade.

When color is mixed with a bit of white (tint) and a bit of black (shade) you end up with a TONE.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Sep-2002/color_tonewheel.jpg

What is lovely about understanding this is, you can actually analyze paintings throughout art history, and see their leanings in their palette. How they preferred to interpret what they saw and presented as real.

Impressionists by enlarge did not use black. Thus, by this tone model...their colors were not combinations of tone....as a tone is color, plus white, plus black by some varying degree. They used whites as tints, and color. YET they did have value, because value is a measure of light and dark. Colors in and of themselves have a degree of being lighter or darker. By mixing pure colors together...they could render form, ie. "value"

Tonalists...were those that rendered using color, white and black.

etc.,

hope that all makes sense. As a final example, I'll put a visual aide of analyzing my current use of the palette...Rembrandt's and Sargent's. It should make looking at other's works more interesting.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Sep-2002/tonewheel_examples.jpg

Larry

Patrick1
09-02-2002, 01:02 AM
Thanks Larry. Your mentioning that white lacks the sun's warmth reminds me. A few years ago when I started, I was using a lot of white to show sunshine & highlights and it just ended up looking like snow or a chalk storm. Even though it was light valued, it didn't have the sun's warmth; it was lifeless and dead.

You like naples yellow for sunshine. Right now I'm using titanium buff/unbleached titanium for this purpose. It lacks naples' warmth but I have a huge tube of it I want to use up however possible.

LarrySeiler
09-02-2002, 11:07 AM
I just thought of another thing too....and that Domer, is that warm colors come foward, and cool colors seem to move things back.

Its hard to imitate warm bathed intense light hitting objects which pop out and seem to hit you in the face....if by putting white in to lighten a color the "coolness" of the white pushes that object further away. That "hit you in the face" thing just doesn't happen...but remember, getting "hit in the face" by rich intense color always is a thing that the aesthetic emotions remember from an experience outdoors.

If in our painting, our intention is to create an "experience" for the viewer that will tap into that emotive mood in their aesthetic psyche memory...which will inturn trigger fondness and reflection, all the white built up in the world that attempts to imitate color brilliance is just not going to do it! Warm color comes forward, cool moves back.

take care,

Larry

oilpainter
09-02-2002, 11:58 AM
You see green pines when hit with low direct sun appear orangish...which is always quite awesome to see.

Hi! First post! When i read this post i had to share this picture i took of this very phenonemon and it truly is awesome to behold!!

ok - lets see if this works!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Sep-2002/redtrees.jpg

LarrySeiler
09-02-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by oilpainter
You see green pines when hit with low direct sun appear orangish...which is always quite awesome to see.

Hi! First post! When i read this post i had to share this picture i took of this very phenonemon and it truly is awesome to behold!!

Hi Sandra, and welcome to WC!

You'll need to click onto your "edit feature"...then go to the top of your page and click on the "Uploader" button. It will allow you to browze your files. Find your jpeg image of the pines. Make sure the name of your jpeg file is lower case, no spaces, no hypens...but you can use a lower space _ between words. After you have the file named right, click on it and have the browser transfer it. Then highlight the url it gives you, and paste it into your edit window, and hit update. Any problems contact me...and I'll try and help!

I'm looking forward to seeing your picture!

Larry

oilpainter
09-02-2002, 01:22 PM
Hi Larry,

Thanks for your help! It looks like i got my picture to upload :clap: :clap: :clap:
When i saw this i was so amazed and took several pictures - some with a flash and some without as it was just turning dusk.

s.

LarrySeiler
09-02-2002, 01:51 PM
yep...and I'm sure the camera doesn't do justice either!

I've seen it where the green needles of the pine are reddish orange, and the branches and trunks intense reddish orange. It is cool!!!

Larry

reynolds
09-02-2002, 05:35 PM
great teaching larry:clap: just want to be here in case anymore happens. has school started for you yet? we are two weeks in here...

LarrySeiler
09-02-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by reynolds
great teaching larry:clap: just want to be here in case anymore happens. has school started for you yet? we are two weeks in here...

thanks!!! our first day with students is tomorrow. Our state has a new law now, to cooperate with tourism that school does not begin until after labor day. Gives everyone one last hurrah....

Lookin' forward to a good year...you too! Take care,

Larry

jackiesimmonds
09-08-2002, 07:38 AM
Iseiler ... about your blues.

I always thought that ultramarine blue was considered a "warmer" blue ... precisely because it is moving towards the mauves and reds on the colour wheel... and reds, as we know, are essentially warm, so they are "warming-up" the blue.

Then, I had been taught that Cerulean blue was a cooler blue, because it is moving towards Green on the colour wheel, and AWAY from red. The fact that green is a mixture of blue and yellow doesn't impact on the "coolness" of the green-blue AS COMPARED to a reddish-blue.

In fact, as I write this, I am looking at circles of blue in a book on colour - the circle of Ultra certainly seems to come forward, as it would if it was warmer, while the circle of Cerulean blue recedes by comparison. The cobalt blue circles seem to fall in the middle.

I am not trying to be argumentative here - just curious.
Jackie

Wayne Gaudon
09-09-2002, 07:20 AM
On the Aritist Color Wheel I have, Ultra Marie is the warmest blue if you read the chart from warmest to cool but if you read the chart clockwise form cool to warm then ultra is the coolest. :D

Just thought I'd throw that in for a smile.

jackiesimmonds
09-09-2002, 10:04 AM
Wayne - you've got me going now - what colour wheel do YOU have? I'd love to see it. ??:confused:

Jackie

LarrySeiler
09-10-2002, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by jackiesimmonds
Iseiler ... about your blues.

I always thought that ultramarine blue was considered a "warmer" blue ... precisely because it is moving towards the mauves and reds on the colour wheel... and reds, as we know, are essentially warm, so they are "warming-up" the blue.

Then, I had been taught that Cerulean blue was a cooler blue, because it is moving towards Green on the colour wheel, and AWAY from red. The fact that green is a mixture of blue and yellow doesn't impact on the "coolness" of the green-blue AS COMPARED to a reddish-blue.

In fact, as I write this, I am looking at circles of blue in a book on colour - the circle of Ultra certainly seems to come forward, as it would if it was warmer, while the circle of Cerulean blue recedes by comparison. The cobalt blue circles seem to fall in the middle.

I am not trying to be argumentative here - just curious.
Jackie


Jackie...I don't think your intent to be argumentative at all. I see yellow as the hottest color. Red quite a bit cooler than yellow. I understand what you are saying, and in fact a few authors hold your position as well.

Its just that what I see yellow doing to blue in the mix appears and "feels" warmer to this artist's eyes than what red does to blue.

In fact, red to blue creates violet, and is opposite yellow on the color wheel. I "think" of violet thus the coldest color to that of Yellow the hottest color.

If you follow my line of thinking, though you don't have to agree, you'll at least understand why it perplexes me.

When I'm painting during the late afternoon...and the sun lowers, the sun casts a very mellow warm mood over everything. The sky closer to the sun will go from yellows to orang'ish pink, to yellow greens and blue greens, and finally the sky farthest from the sun a violet blue. Thus supporting once again in my mind, the sky being furthest from the sun...that color being the coolest in the sky at that moment. Logically. Or... shall we say logical to me! hahah...

Again...while Ultramarine might be considered warmer by others, my own practical use of it as I describe no doubt leads to the results I get in my paintings.

I know....wierd! hahaha.....

Larry

Don Lawson
09-10-2002, 11:39 PM
I find that when Im deciding my color arrangements for the painting, I consult the color wheel (I use the Quiller Wheel), and if Im going to concentrate on blues/greens/purples, then I go to their complementary color, i.e. orange, and use that to tone my canvas. The bright complementary peeping thru the mother colors help me develop other ideas as I paint. :clap:

Wayne Gaudon
09-11-2002, 10:26 AM
jackiesimmonds
... it's just a normal old color wheel .. just my weird sense of humor kicking in
.. consider 9 on the clock as ultramarine blue and 6 as cerel blue .. if you start at 12 and go left 9 is only 3 positions away from the warmest and 6 is 6 so 9 is warmer.
If I start at 12 and go right then 6 is 6 and 9 is 9 so 6 is closer to 12 if 12 is the start and 9 is the finish.

.. silly thought but if you are not holding the ends of the stick when you make the measurement, you can get all kinds of different calls, each true to it's measure, but not true to the full measure. It's all based on relativity. Does that make any sense?

Don .. that works well .. Group Of Seven used that ideal a lot.
I've read of artist who break it into 3 sections sky = orange, body = red, foreground = purple.

impressionist2
09-17-2002, 08:13 AM
Jackie, On another artlist in a galaxy far away from here, the members almost came to blows over whether ultra blue or cerulean was the coolest.

I can list professional artists who have written opposing views in their books on this subject.

I'm with Larry, in that the color of choice should be what you feel best respresents the temperature you are seeking.

Remember it all depends on what color it's sitting next to on the support.

Renee

WFMartin
09-18-2002, 11:24 AM
I believe the terms "cool" and "warm" are relative terms, and are sort of "artsy" in their use. I've been in the lithographic trade for many years, and have found that different people discuss different colors as having "cool" and "warm" properties. For example, some persons describe the color, magenta, as being a cool color, while others describe it as being one of the hottest colors there is. There really is no right or wrong answer to this discussion. It's whatever a person perceives it to be.

What really identifies any color is locating the point at which it plots on a color wheel. This is a simple procedure for most lithographers, and involves a measurement taken with a basic color densitometer. For example at our company, I often monitor the batches of the process inks as they come into our plant, for hue and grayness (two dimensions of color).

The attribute of color that is difficult to measure is the third dimension of color, and that is its luminance (lightness or darkness). This operation requires a spectrophotometer, and not a simple desitometer. At the light end of the "luminance" scale, white is at the center of the wheel, and represents NEUTRALITY. At the dark end of the "luminance" scale, black is at the center, and also represents NEUTRALITY. This is why mixing either white or black with any color detracts from its saturation (purity, or chroma), and produces a "grayer" or more neutral version of that color.

I agree that "lighter" is not "brighter". For example, if one were to mix enough white into a color, it eventually ceases to be a color at all, and becomes pure white, which is NEUTRAL. And, "neutral white" certainly does not represent a "bright" color any more than "neutral black" does. Of course the term, "brighter" is really not a scientific term, either, but usually is taken as meaning "more saturated color" as opposed to simply "lighter".

I guess I'm just a color theorist at heart. Must be the influence of my teaching days.

Bill

LarrySeiler
09-18-2002, 05:22 PM
I can certainly appreciate your opinion Bill, but if "artsy" describes those that refer to warm and cool colors, then I use a very artsy palette...and teach even artsier!

My palette consists of a warm and cool of each primary...and its how I judge my colors when painting directly from life out of doors.

I guess its each his own...but, if someone looking over my paintings on my website (or in a gallery) were to ask me for an honest answer for how I achieve my sense of drama and realism, I would have to direct their attention to my artsy palette...and to learn to see in an artsy sorta way! ;)

Fortunately...there are artsy types that have been willing to buy 'em too! hahaha...

Oh well, this shows though that there is room in the art world for much diversity; and a good thing too, or our world would sure be boring!
take care,

Larry

WFMartin
09-18-2002, 07:35 PM
First, a question: How does one go about doing a “quote” on this site? I have tried highlighting a single line, and pressing the “quote” button, and usually I get the entire message, or it get random groups of type. I can’t seem to get just the line I wish to maintain as a quote. I’m sure someone will advise me.

Larry, you sort of missed my point. I am in full and complete agreement with you. My palette contains “warm” and “cool” colors of each primary, as you suggest, also. My only point was that the terms “warm” and “cool” as descriptions of colors are more vague than describing where they are located on a color model (such as a wheel). Again, the color, magenta, considered to be a warm color by some, and a cool color by others would better be described as being located on a color wheel midway between blue (violet) and red. It can be termed a warm color or a cool color, depending upon the artist describing it. There is no right or wrong, as I see it. But everyone can see where it plots on a color wheel, whether the artist chooses to call it warm, cool, or whatever.

And, regarding the mixing of white into a color, I was actually trying to strengthen your point regarding the diminished saturation of color even further. I totally agree with you.

Bill

WFMartin
09-18-2002, 07:53 PM
Larry,

Being an ex-Wisconsinite, myself, I now know where you find all those really great scenes you paint. And, I REALLY like the way you paint WATER.

Down here in AZ, it's mostly rocks with SOME water.

Take care, and paint on!

Bill:)

LarrySeiler
09-18-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by WFMartin
First, a question: How does one go about doing a “quote” on this site? I have tried highlighting a single line, and pressing the “quote” button, and usually I get the entire message, or it get random groups of type. I can’t seem to get just the line I wish to maintain as a quote. I’m sure someone will advise me.

Bill, you just simply click on the button that says "Quote" at the bottom of the individual's post you wish to quote. Then, a "Post Reply" window will come up. You'll see the entire post of that person's bracketed with html commands for quote and often bold.

You can then insert your cursor, hit return to create a paragraph to what you might want to respond to, or delete everything but what you want to respond to. But, before you start typing, you have to close the thought off you will respond to with a "[" then "/" and then "B" and then "]" next another "[" then the word "QUOTE" followed by "]"


To respond to another comment in the same post, you'll have to type up the command "[" "QUOTE" "]" and then, "[" "B" and "]"
before that person's words...

Everything in text between the commands quote b and /quote /b will show up in a highlighted text quote box.


Larry, you sort of missed my point. I am in full and complete agreement with you. My palette contains “warm” and “cool” colors of each primary, as you suggest, also. My only point was that the terms “warm” and “cool” as descriptions of colors are more vague than describing where they are located on a color model (such as a wheel). Again, the color, magenta, considered to be a warm color by some, and a cool color by others would better be described as being located on a color wheel midway between blue (violet) and red.

I getcha...okay.

Thing though...I deal with artists as young as Kindergarden up to 12th grade, as well as adults in workshops. I have shelves and shelves of books, and I'd say half of one shelf is just color theory books alone.

I have personally found it the easiest explaining it to young artists that to be "in light" "feels" and is warm. To have an absence of light, "feels" and is cool. That there are colors that imitate nature getting hit with warm light...and colors that best suggest the shadows in nature.

I too use the colorwheel...but basic. First...just the concept of the three basic primaries. The idea that blue and yellow make green, and so on. Then...as they get a bit older or more sophisticated in their artistic understanding....I let them know there are warm and cool versions of each of the primaries.

Basically we are in agreement as you say.


And, regarding the mixing of white into a color, I was actually trying to strengthen your point regarding the diminished saturation of color even further. I totally agree with you.

Bill

dead on!

Larry

LarrySeiler
09-18-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by WFMartin
Larry,

Being an ex-Wisconsinite, myself, I now know where you find all those really great scenes you paint. And, I REALLY like the way you paint WATER.

Down here in AZ, it's mostly rocks with SOME water.

Take care, and paint on!

Bill:)

after mule deer hunting in the Briger Tetons of Wyoming, I learned to appreciate the lush midwest more. I enjoyed the mountains, don't get me wrong. Amazing.

I was offered a teaching position last year in southwest corner of Wyoming, but the high desert's predominant colors are brown and gray. The high school might have had their own bronze foundry, but I couldn't imagine not seeing greens, the colors of the change of seasons, fresh lakes and streams, ....ugh.

My natural mother retired and bought a house in Kingman, AZ just recently....and I have not visited yet. I'll have to bring my plein air painting equipment though when I do!

take care....

Larry

Keith Russell
09-25-2002, 02:32 PM
Greetings:

I 'still' like to paint on pure white acid-free illustration board.

I know, I know--I'm such an anachronism.

Keith.