Casein Questions Answered

[Jmolnar]

Hi All,

I just joined Wetcanvas.
Casein paint is my specialty.
I've been painting with casein for 25 years.
If you have any questions about casein supports, usage, brushes, technique or varnish, email me and I'll answer with a solution for you.



Cheers,
John Molnar

[Studio-1-F]

Wow!!! John, thank you!!!

Is this (http://www.johnmolnarpaintings.com/) you?

Jan

[dbclemons]

Feel free to ask your questions here as well. :p

[BarbaraInFlorida]

I do have a question: I read 'What is casein' on your site-answered most of my questions right there. I was interested in the differences between casein and watercolor. I have tried acrylics and am not fond of them at all. Oil takes too long to dry and it's easier to muddy the colors.
I thought casein might give a middle ground for working.
Do you frame casein as a watercolor or an oil? I am wondering if you put a finish of any kind on casein once it has dried.
Thanks

[dbclemons]

Barb, it might help first if we look at why a varnish is used on any sort of painting. The paint surface can collect dust, grime, smoke stains, etc. over time, and a varnish layer can offer protection for cleaning so that the paint surface itself is not touched. Some pigments can also have more of a matte or gloss tone when they dry, and a varnish resin can help balance that out over the whole painting. There are different sorts of varnishes, but they all offer more or less the same results, They can be matte or glossy, temporary or permanent. The most practical type of varnish in terms of conservation care is one that can be removed if it becomes damaged or discolored over time.

Regarding casein or any other similar paint surface that is somewhat fragile, if you apply a varnish to it, the varnish automatically becomes permanent since there's no way to safely remove it later on without removing paint. If the varnish ages poorly, there's nothing you can do to fix it. Another problem is that the casein surface can absorb the resin in such a way that it actually changes the coloring and value of the pigment, depending on how the paint was applied, thus changing the look of your painting, perhaps for the worse. I have found that if you wait several months (3-4) for the casein to cure completely, that is less likely to happen than if you varnish earlier. Spirit or oil varnishes tend to work better in that case than water soluble varnishes that might disturb the casein layer.

In the absence of a varnish, glazing (glass or plexiglass) can be used to protect the paint surface. This is the most convenient solution, but it can add to the overall weight and fragile nature of the work, glare or non-glare issues, costs, etc. If you're exhibiting a work on paper some places demand that paper pieces be behind glass. It also doesn't help solve the patchy gloss to matte paint surface problems.

In the end as a general rule, most will advise you to hang casein under glass, and that's what I often do. After it has cured (if I still have it,) I may add a varnish so that glass is not necessary. Otherwise I would just keep it in storage so it dosen't get dirty.

[Jmolnar]

Hi Barb,

The difference between gouache and casein is that gouache has glycerin in it.
As do watercolor paints.This means they are permanently soluable to water, so they must be framed under glass to protect them from moisture or water.

As for Casein, I have painted many casein paintings on canvas, unframed.
I use aerosol spray matte varnish, so that the colors don't become distorted, as can be the case with gloss varnish applications over casein.

Casein on paper should be framed under glass, not so much to protect the paint, but to keep the paper clean.

Casein can be used as an under painting for oils. Be sure to apply an isolating varnish layer between the casein and oil paint.

By the way, casein on paper is an excellent ground for silver point drawing!

Cheers,

[alexs]

Hi John
I'm glad you have decided to join Wet Canvas. I will have a lot of questions for you about using casein.

I have read many references that say you should not paint casein on canvas. Is this correct? How do you get around this problem?

What is the best support for painting casein?

Thanks
Alex

[Jmolnar]

Hi alexs,

I have painted casein on canvas for 25 years or so.
This is emulsified casein, that is casein tempered with oil.
The brand I use is Shiva Casein.
The references you have read probably relate to untempered casein, or "milk paint', or lime casein.
I paint in thin layers, and build them up in layers.
I have some examples of mu casein paintings at my website: http://www.johnmolnarpaintings.com/

Painting with casein is much like painting with gouache, only it dries into a polymer,(film or skin) onto gessoed canvas.

Please write to me with any more questions or ideas you have about casein.
My email is johnmolnar@gmail.com

[Studio-1-F]

Wow!!! John, thank you!!!

Is this (http://www.johnmolnarpaintings.com/) you?

Jan
I guess that IS you, John.

Jan

[Jmolnar]

http://www.johnmolnarpaintings.com/images/valentinekiss.jpg

Hi Jan!
Yes it's my stuff!
Thank you.

[JamieWG]

Hi alexs,

I have painted casein on canvas for 25 years or so.
This is emulsified casein, that is casein tempered with oil.
The brand I use is Shiva Casein.
The references you have read probably relate to untempered casein, or "milk paint', or lime casein.
I paint in thin layers, and build them up in layers.
I have some examples of mu casein paintings at my website: http://www.johnmolnarpaintings.com/

Painting with casein is much like painting with gouache, only it dries into a polymer,(film or skin) onto gessoed canvas.

Please write to me with any more questions or ideas you have about casein.
My email is johnmolnar@gmail.com

John, I use the Shiva casein too. I didn't realize it was different from other casein paints. I assume you're saying that it is already "tempered" with oil? Why does it dry so quickly then?

Do you use stretched canvas, or canvas mounted to a stiff support like hardboard? I think I'd worry about cracking on a very flexible support.

Jamie

[alexs]

John
Would you care to elaborate on the polymer concept of
shiva's casein. This is totaly new to me.

What is the use of Shiva's emulsion and when or where should I use it?

I have been using Shiva casein on gessoed watercolor paper. I would like to mount this to a more rigid support so that I can frame the painting in a frame without glass. What adhesive and varnish would you recommend.

Is there a recommended drying time for the casein before it can be varnished similar to oils.

Alex

[Jmolnar]

Hi Alex and Jamie,

I always stretch my own choice of canvas.
It has to be rigid enough, not floppy to take casein properly.
Casein emulsion is casein and oil emulsified.
This cures to a skin or polymer.
Because of the oil content.
The more casein emulsion added to casein, prolongs drying time, and adds
flexibility. Too much emulsion can yellow.
I would suggest stretching canvas over a rigid support instead of paper.
Weldbond glue is an excellent glue for mounting canvas.
I prefer a matte varnish, aerosol spray. I like to preserve the matte look of casein.
Drying time varies can vary. A month or two is a suitable period of time.
Try a 8" x 10" test application before you commit to a finished piece.
Play around with casein a bit, it's different in behavior, and it takes a little patience to get to know your way around it.
Cheers,

[dbclemons]

Richeson has an FAQ on their site (http://www.richesonart.com/products/media/shiva_casein/casein_faq.html)that offers up some advice about using the medium. They mention that it's okay to use casein on stretched canvas IF you paint thinly, otherwise use a firm support.

Although they don't say exactly what the content of the binder is, they must use an added preservative of some sort since "fresh" casein would have a short shelf life, unlike their paints and medium which can sit of a store shelf for years and still be used. I'm fairly certain there's no oil in it, but having oil in small amounts wouldn't necessary make it dry very slowly. Sennelier egg tempera paints and binder have some oil in them, for example, and dry relatively fast.

I sometimes use casein emulsion (my own mixture) and oil paints in a preliminary undertone for my oil paintings. You can also use the emulsion with casein pants to extend their brushability without diluting them with water, just don't overdo it. You can also mix it with raw pigments to make your own paints, perhaps for colors that Shiva doesn't offer. Shiva also sells a Casein "varnish" which is essentially shellac.

There are several glues that work well for mounting canvas or paper to wood. Hide glue, starch, or acrylic glues or mediums will do the job. Some types are reversible, some not. Many types of wood panels are acidic, and it's for that reason that watercolorists don't recommend mounting paper to wood, but there are some varieties that aren't that risky, or else they can be properly sized beforehand. Otherwise you can use other firm supports that are acid free, like some types of foamcore or binder board.

[alexs]

Can you mix watercolor paints, from a tube, with the casein emulsion to get a different color. I didn't want to go through the expense of buying dry pigments just yet.

I still would like to go through with the exercise of mounting my casein paintings on masonite. The paper has several coatings of acrylic gesso on the front and back prior to the casein application. I intend to apply GAC 100 to the masonite and then apply an acrylic gel medium before mounting the casein painting. Would this be a reasonable approach?

I have tried mounting the casein painting on acid free matboard. The matboard warps.

Alex

[JamieWG]

Can you mix watercolor paints, from a tube, with the casein emulsion to get a different color. I didn't want to go through the expense of buying dry pigments just yet.

I still would like to go through with the exercise of mounting my casein paintings on masonite. The paper has several coatings of acrylic gesso on the front and back prior to the casein application. I intend to apply GAC 100 to the masonite and then apply an acrylic gel medium before mounting the casein painting. Would this be a reasonable approach?

I have tried mounting the casein painting on acid free matboard. The matboard warps.

Alex

Alex, I have asked the conservators from the National Gallery in Washington this question about mounting works done on fine paper onto masonite/hardboard sealed with GAC100. The reply was basically, why would I want to take a great support like rag paper and mount it on a terrible substrate like masonite? So, they weren't thrilled with that approach!

Jamie

[dbclemons]

Hardboard "Masonite" gets a bad rep, and most of the time deserves it in terms of its lignin content, but there are some on the market that have a neutral pH, in which case they would be a fine support for paper. The GAC100 would also adequately prevent any discoloration from getting to the paper from the wood, so it sounds to me those conservators just have a prejudiced opinion on the matter. You're going to have to mount paper to something, and there are other supports you could use, like acid free foamcore, but I'm not convinced it's any more "archival" (i.e. long lasting) than wood.

The acrylic gel (I often use Golden's Soft Gel) will work fine for gluing paper to wood. Unlike other adhesives, it's a permanent bond and can sometimes dry unevenly, leaving bubble pockets underneath. You can usually prevent or diminish the warping or curling by keeping it weighed down while it dries, or use a thicker support. Acrylic polymers shrink while they dry, so that and any water content just adds to the problem.

As for using watercolors, they certainly can mix with casein, but that won't make the watercolors any more opaque than they already are. That's the real problem you'll face with using watercolor paint.

[alexs]

Thanks for your replies. Much appreciated.

[Jmolnar]

Hi Alex,


A photographer friend of mine mounts his photo prints on aluminum panels.
I would recommend this support as a good option rather than Masonite.
Cradled wood panel boards are also an option, although the aluminum is the most stable support.

Dry pigments are actually the most economical way for creating your own paint.

I've only made egg tempera with water colour paint.
You can try watercolour and emulsion, but it might take a lot of of paint to work.

Which colour are you trying to make?
Shiva has a good spectrum of hues, and I rarely have had to make up extra colours.

I have made zinc white casein,from powdered pigment, to render clouds.
They looked wonderful actually.

[alexs]

John, how do you make zinc white casein. I'm much interesed in making more realistic whispy clouds in casein.

[alexs]

John, the aluminum panels sound great, but I can't cut them on a table saw. I've committed myself to hardboard for now.

[Jmolnar]

Hi Alex,

Making zinc white casein is fairly easy.
On a glass panel, add enough water to make a slurry mixture of pigment, kinda like the consistency of heavy table cream.
While the slurry is still wet, slowly work in casein emulsion into it with a palette knife.

The ratio of emulsion can be 1:1 or even half volume casein emulsion to pigment, depending on the pigment brand.

Always perform a test strip when making your own paint. Cover half of the strip to block out sunlight. Place the test strip on a window ledge with access to direct sunlight. Leave it there for a good amount of time.You will see if it fades or goes bad over the course of a week or so.

I would have the aluminum cut to size by the shop where you bought it from.

Many glass shops also sell aluminum, copper and other metal sheets.

Depending on the size of your watercolours, you can also buy copper coated electronic circuit board as an alternative for a support.
These boards are used by electronic hobbyists, to make their own pc's and other gadgets.

They are usually sold in smaller sizes.

As for painting the Zinc white, proceed painting with it as you would with tube casein.

[Chuck Peterson]

I suggest an aluminum coated PVC called Dibond. I am mainly in the commercial sign business and we use it a lot where we used to use MDO plywood . It can be cut with woodworking tools, has a white enamel finish, or bare aluminum, is lightweight and very rigid, comes in several thicknesses. It comes in 4x8 ft sheets or larger but my supplier cuts it for me. I have never used it for the purpose you are considering but it comes to mind as a possible alternative. Good to see John Molnar here.

[alexs]

Chuck; Where does one buy Dibond? What price are we talking about for an 4x8 sheet and what are the various thicknesses

[Chuck Peterson]

Dibond is made by Alcancomposites and info can be found I'm sure at their website. I would check with a local supplier to sign companies such as Montroy supply, a U.S. nationwide company with branches in many cities. It starts at 2mm thick, less than 1/8" and goes up to 6mm or more. At 2mm thick it is more rigid than solid aluminim becauase it is a PVC/Aluminum sandwich and can be cut easier. I think around $80 for 4x8 ft. There are also other brands.

[brushandknife]

As for using watercolors, they certainly can mix with casein, but that won't make the watercolors any more opaque than they already are. That's the real problem you'll face with using watercolor paint.
__________________


I like the transparency, and like to mix the 2 looks- so can I achieve the wc look but also have the permancy of the casein by doing this? Can I just mix wc with the emulsion? If so, what ratio would you use? Thanks very much- this is such a helpful thread. :thumbsup:
Carol :wave:
PS. I'm gonna rate it if I can figure out how!
Got it- you got an EXCELLENT! :D

[Jmolnar]

I like the transparency, and like to mix the 2 looks- so can I achieve the wc look but also have the permancy of the casein by doing this? Can I just mix wc with the emulsion? If so, what ratio would you use? Thanks very much- this is such a helpful thread. :thumbsup:
Carol :wave:
PS. I'm gonna rate it if I can figure out how!
Got it- you got an EXCELLENT! :D

Hi Carol,

Before mixing WC with emulsion, try to paint casein as you would with WC!
I personally would recommend trying Shiva 'halftone' black as an introduction to casein's transparent facility. I have used this and found it to be easily transparent in application.
I've emulated the look of sume-i water colours, using this paint.

[brushandknife]

I was just thinking it would be a way to use up my wc and also have more colors without purchasing. Shucks. :( Ah, well, back to the drawing board!
I'm not sure I understand about the half-tone black. Are you meaning you mix it in with the colors?
Thanks,
Carol

[Jmolnar]

I was just thinking it would be a way to use up my wc and also have more colors without purchasing. Shucks. :( Ah, well, back to the drawing board!
I'm not sure I understand about the half-tone black. Are you meaning you mix it in with the colors?
Thanks,
Carol

Hi Carol.

If you want to use up your watercolors, one option is combining them with egg to make egg tempera.
I have made my own egg tempera this way.
You'll need an egg yolk, a drop or two of clove oil and/or isopropyl alcohol, a piece of double gauge glass.

Separate a fresh egg. Roll around the yolk an a paper towel to clean off residual albumen.
Then cradle the egg cupped onto your fingers.
With an exacto knife or a pin, pierce the egg sac (carefully) and let the yolk fluid drain into a glass container.
Dispense the yolk sac.
Add a drop or two of the alcohol and a teardrop of clove oil to the yolk liquid. (The alcohol and clove oil kill any bacteria so the egg doesn't spoil)

On the glass pane, squeeze out the colors you want to use, a little goes a long way.
Then mix a half teaspoon of yolk thoroughly with the watercolors with a palette knife.
You will now be ready to paint egg tempera on a gessoed rigid panel.
Varnish the final painting.
You won't have to frame this painting under glass either.

You could try this with casein emulsion too, although I prefer using pure powdered pigments.

The halftone black isn't what you want, but it's nice to airbrush lightly over casein paintings. It can act like black in cymk printing, to add contrast.

Hope this helps you!

Tell me how the egg tempera turns out. Or if you have any more questions:)

[brushandknife]

I'm afraid you are dealing with a dummy. I'm self-taught so I have no idea what cymk printing is! :o I'm not sure I'm ready for the egg thing yet, but I thank you for the explanation of how to do it. I have been thinking of trying it eventually after I am better with the wc/gouache/casein painting itself. I knew you added egg (someone else mentioned vinegar to help it keep), but I had no idea beyond that really. Your explanation is most understandable and will be where I come back to when the time comes. Thank you much.

You could try this with casein emulsion too, although I prefer using pure powdered pigments

Do you mean I can add the wc paints to the emulsion? That's what I'd like to do at this point to make some colors I don't have in casein rather than buying more-more-more!

Again, thanks so much for all your help. I have alot to learn and it's tough without folks like you. You make the journey so much easier and more enjoyable. :thumbsup:
Carol

[Jmolnar]

I'm afraid you are dealing with a dummy. I'm self-taught so I have no idea what cymk printing is! :o I'm not sure I'm ready for the egg thing yet, but I thank you for the explanation of how to do it. I have been thinking of trying it eventually after I am better with the wc/gouache/casein painting itself. I knew you added egg (someone else mentioned vinegar to help it keep), but I had no idea beyond that really. Your explanation is most understandable and will be where I come back to when the time comes. Thank you much.



Do you mean I can add the wc paints to the emulsion? That's what I'd like to do at this point to make some colors I don't have in casein rather than buying more-more-more!

Again, thanks so much for all your help. I have alot to learn and it's tough without folks like you. You make the journey so much easier and more enjoyable. :thumbsup:
Carol


Hi Carol,

Yes you can add wc to emulsion.
And it will be now ok to paint on canvas or panel.
I hope you can squeeze out enough paint to infuse enough pigment in the emulsion for good colour.
Try a little at first to get the mixture right.
Tell us how it goes.
I'm sure it will will have some nice effects!

[suebq]

:wave: I'm not even sure what casein is, but interested in finding out. What beautiful paintings you do. Good job. suebq new member.

[Jmolnar]

:wave: I'm not even sure what casein is, but interested in finding out. What beautiful paintings you do. Good job. suebq new member.
HI

Casein is a protein that is a component of milk.
In it's raw state, it's called cheese curds!

Casein emulsion paint is made by drying out the curd, grinding it to a powder and adding water, oils and pigment.
Just so you know :)

John

[brushandknife]

Well, no wonder I like casein! I LOVE cheese curds! :lol:
Carol

[dbclemons]

...Casein emulsion paint is made by drying out the curd, grinding it to a powder and adding water, oils and pigment.
Just so you know :)...

That's not quite correct, John. The casein that's in milk is actually insoluble in water. You can separate it from raw milk by adding a catalyst such as vinegar. That will give you the "cheese." You then make it into a glue by adding an alkali, such as borax, ammonia carbonate, or lime. No grinding is necessary, just a little heat and the alkali does it's thing. You COULD add oil if you wanted to, but it it's required for making casein paint.

I've written an old thread here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6491755#post6491755) about how to do this.

[ottercreek]

Hello John,
I was so amazed to see you as new member of WC! I've loved your work since the moment I saw it and really appreciated your site when I began investigating casein a couple of years ago.

I generally work in alkyds but I have a commission of an old thrashing machine and casein is perfect for all the detail involved. My question is what type of pallet do you use and is there any way to keep the casein fresh for extended use?

Thanks for being on the site and your wonderful work!

[Jmolnar]

Hello John,
I was so amazed to see you as new member of WC! I've loved your work since the moment I saw it and really appreciated your site when I began investigating casein a couple of years ago.

I generally work in alkyds but I have a commission of an old thrashing machine and casein is perfect for all the detail involved. My question is what type of pallet do you use and is there any way to keep the casein fresh for extended use?

Thanks for being on the site and your wonderful work!
Thanks for the compliments!

The palettes I use are white enamel "butcher's" trays. They clean up nicely.They come in larger sizes, so you can lay down paint in 3"'x3" areas and still have space to mix them.

I've also used a plastic resealable palette painting plein air. These are the ones that have disposable paper liners. Stopped using the paper, as it leeched away too much paint medium. They can help keep casein workable for a little longer. Plastic wrap covered over a tray works well also.

Try using a spray bottle with water and work a palette knife into the casein to re-moisten them for working.

Casein on the palette is workable for a few days just by using the water spray/palette knife in this manner.

For detail work, I've discovered Chinese style calligraphy brushes hold their points very well,and stay that way at least as long as acrylic fiber brushes.
These brushes don't cost as much as acrylic brushes either!
If you pinch the hairs flat, and make a fan shape, they are handy to render grasses and cross hatch strokes and stippling too!

Have a great day!

[ottercreek]

John, thank you for the information with the foreground of this piece I'm working on I'll need lots of loose brushwork so I need to get some calligraphy brushes.

Thank you for being so generous with your knowledge, I've learned my craft by reading about and studying on my own, would you mind critiquing my work so far? be honest I can take it! (as I cry on my keyboard...) Thanks again Sue

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=435996&stc=1&d=1240277458

[Dcam]

John and David: Why is it that I can only find "Shiva" casein paints? Are there any other really good brands out there? My Shivas lasted about a year in the tube and got hard as a rock. lol.
Derek

[dbclemons]

Derek, the main reason for the lack of casein paints on the market is the same for egg tempera (genuine egg tempera, that is) -they have a limited shelf life. That makes them not very practical for stores to keep as inventory. This makes it more reasonable to mix up your own paints. Although the Shiva paints you have dried out, I have a few that are several years old and are still useable. Those tubes you had may have just gotten air in them somehow.

For a couple years now I've been using a brand of casein paints from Rosco called Iddings (http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/iddings_deep.asp)that is marketed to stage designers. They make theirs with soy protein. Because they are are used to paint sets, they come in large quantities - quart and gallons. They also sell a sample kit of 23 colors in 1 ounce bottles, but you can't buy individual colors at that size. Based on my tests they seem like good quality paints; although, just like Shiva, I don't know for certain everything that's in them.

The only other brand I know of is Pelikan's Plaka which I believe is an inferior "poster paint" product, and there are some others that include lime and clay for furniture and gilding paints.

[Dcam]

Thanks David. great info. derek

[Jmolnar]

John, thank you for the information with the foreground of this piece I'm working on I'll need lots of loose brushwork so I need to get some calligraphy brushes.

Thank you for being so generous with your knowledge, I've learned my craft by reading about and studying on my own, would you mind critiquing my work so far? be honest I can take it! (as I cry on my keyboard...) Thanks again Sue

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=435996&stc=1&d=1240277458
Hi Sue,

You are very good.
You draw very crisp and concisely.

Now consider selective focus.
Try to simplify the local colors in the distance as tones. Remember, the more distant a stand of trees, or say a far away mountain, tend to be close in hue, value and most importantly close in tonality.
Look up Bernie Fuchs as a more concrete example.

You have such talent!

I love the way you have staged the passage of time in this subject.
The rust covered farm machine, now unable to fend off the over grown weeds. That's poetry.

Try to resolve the diagonal path of the ground in the right corner. Perhaps the edge of an old iron plow could work nicely as a counterbalance, so the eye of the viewer doesn't exit there, but finds it as an entry point.

I don't think you really need any more help with this now.
Great piece already!

Keep me posted!

John.

[russell44]

I use masonite, but I coat front and back and sides with two thin coats of shellac, then lightly sand before I put three thin coats of "real gesso" on them. I do my underpainting for figures with detail on first with the casein paint as I find working with water thinning them down allows me to work fast and accurately. Then once my composiiton is done, I apply a coat of shiva varnish over the entire image. Then with wet 400 grit, I lightly sand and then apply my glazes and scumbles of oil paint with a coat of retouch varnish when dry. Six months I lay down a coat of damar for the final piece. If it has been sold, I make an appointment to do that for the client. Look at the artwork of the western artist Frank McCarthy. He did a lot of underpainting with casein. One must remember for a lot of the old illustrators from the 40's, 50's, and early 60's, casein was the medium of choice because of the matte finish so they could photograph the illustrations with 4x5 transparency or an 8x10 to send to their advertising or magazine clients. Examine your reasons on why you like a certain medium. If you like tight work, or have problems with the drying time between glazes in oil, you might like doing the ebauche or underpainting in casein. I use only raw umber, cobalt blue and white for my underpainting. Reason being, value and shapes are my purpose. The oil palette I use is 14 colors with a full range of grays to lessen the chroma on the cadmiums and pthalo colors.
Chuck Anderson