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impressionist2
08-12-2002, 07:37 AM
I switched from Danacolors nice clean cad yellow light to WN cad. yellow pale and there's an orangy weird cast to WN when mixed with other colors. Pretty much the same thing you get with grumbacher diarylide yellow-that sickly orangy cast. The orange equivalent to pea green.

Is there a clean non orangy light yellow that WN makes? Or maybe I'll return to Danacolors.

Renee

Patrick1
08-12-2002, 02:15 PM
Diarylide yellow is a very orangy yellow...almost orange. It's probably one of, if not the most orangy yellows available...so that's not surprising.

But cad yellow light or pale is pretty close to a middle yellow (at least by itself). In mixtures, it might have a slight leaning toward orange, but I don't think it should give all mixtures an orangy cast.

-Straight from the tube does it look similar to the other cad. yellow light/pale that you are familiar with?

-Which colors are you mixing it with when you get that orangy cast?

impressionist2
08-12-2002, 04:17 PM
Domer, Hi. haven't seen you around for a while-must be hanging out in different forums.

From the tube WN cad yellow pale leans toward the diarylide yellow as opposed to danacolors which looks like a lightbulb bright pure yellow. When I use wn with YO and white, I get that strong intense color from the yellow. It also holds that orangy cast even mixed with terre verte.

I am used to being freer with my cad yellow pale. Perhaps I will hold back on the WN and use less.

It's in the sand on this rough.

Renee

JeffG
08-12-2002, 10:39 PM
How about:

Aureolin Yellow
Benzimidazolone Yellow (PY 154... yes, I had to look it up...)
Windsor Yellow, which is PY154

Benzi and Aureolin are said to be basically equivalent... a "cool", transparent yellow. However, Aureolin yellow is said to be suspect in lightfastness, I believe, while Benzi is fine.

Note that I discovered and I'm applying this info through Watercolor application (Jean Dobie recommends Aureolin and research on Handprint.com pointed me to PY154 as an allternative) I'm assuming any of these are available in oil. I've been very happy with my recent WC palette adjustment and I've been using Windsor yellow... it's cool and transparent, mixes well and is good for greens.

Patrick1
08-13-2002, 09:41 PM
Renee...wow, that's an awesome picture...I'd love it if my paintings that I spend 4 hours on were 1/4 as good as your rough copy.

So it sounds like straight from the tube the W&N cad. yellow pale is orangy. To my knowledge it should be a middle yellow in masstone, with very little, if any, orangy-ness to it (I guess that would depend a lot on the lighting conditions.)

Maybe the tube was mis-labelled?


Jeff, how do you like the benzi yellow (PY 154)?
In mixes, does it seem to mix cleaner oranges or greens?

I want to try it as my primary yellow, but I'm concerned that it won't be opaque enough, and I need my yellow(s) to be opaque. Right now I'm using Liquitex's bismuth vanadate yellow (PY 184) as my opaque primary yellow in acrylics, and I love it, but the tube is almost finished.

impressionist2
08-15-2002, 08:25 AM
Jeff and Domer, Thank you.

Jeff, I almost bought Winsor yellow. Is that a brighter purer yellow? I will check out all those colors next time at Pearl. Problem lately is, I have discovered the joy of ordering over the internet-delivery from Jerrys in three days -very spoiled now. No checking out the colors in the tubes in person.

Someone always mentioned winsor green in their work as well. Possibly MacPherson.

What is the source of the yellow dye? How does one create yellow?

Domer, wn Cad.yellow pale looks like it leans toward a middle yellow. More like medium cad. yellow in Grumbacher paints.

Thanks too for the vote of confidence as I struggle through conquering the style I am after. Influenced heavily by Sovek, Kroll-Roberts and another unknown local artist, I am finally painting everyday, as MacPherson advises and Struggling through, all the way. This is only half done. As in all self teaching, the painting is always a hairs breath away from being tossed!:D

It's always a miracle if it makes it to the finish line. We'll see if this one does.

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
08-15-2002, 11:59 AM
Hello Renee

.. I use Winton Cad Yellow Pale and haven't really been bothered by it .. Cad Yellow Med does what you are saying .. least to me .. it will take Terre Verte and make it puke green .. orangy green almost mud .. Cad Yell Pale will turn Terre Verte into a rich Lime Green. Yellow Pale is light yellow and of itself looks yellow where cad yell med looks orange yellow . . they also make a Lemon yellow. I don't use it but I think it leans on the green yellow side or cool yellow as they call it.

impressionist2
08-15-2002, 02:26 PM
Wayne, Below are two paint swatches. The top one is a mix of terre verte ( which I don't like btw) and WN artist oils cad yellow pale. A pure blob of the paint out of the tube is immediately to the right. Hence, the orangy cast to the TV/CYP mix.

Under them is the Classic artist oils version of exactly the same named color, mixed with the same terre verte. Pure swatch to the right. See how much brighter and purer Classic artist oil's yellow is? I am ordering their version from now on.

My favorite green is chromium oxide. It mixes so beautifully with burnt sienna.

Also, today's version of the couple.

Renee


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Aug-2002/Paletteyellow.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Aug-2002/Beachcouple5.jpg

Patrick1
08-15-2002, 04:00 PM
Renee, it looks like the WN cad yellow pale is 'wrong'. I agree, it is way too orangy to be cad yellow light or pale (unless it's supposed to be like that, which I doubt). It looks like cad yellow medium.

I have a tube of WN Artisan cad yellow pale or light (real cadmium, not 'hue') and it looks like one would expect, just like the swatch of the Classic below.

There's a huge difference in the sand color...I probably like the cooler version better; I agree the first one was too orangy.

Oh well, if I were you, I'd just use the WN tube of paint as my orangy yellow...should be perfect for that.

Luis Guerreiro
08-15-2002, 07:11 PM
W&N WINTON Cadmium Yellow Medium Hue is very orange, I only use Cadmium Yellow Light which is really a strong yellow.
Cadmium Lemon is also nice for fresh clean mixes.
Luis :)

Wayne Gaudon
08-16-2002, 11:23 AM
Sorry, forgot to look at this last night ..
Here is what I have on the subject .. Terre Verte & Cad Yellow Light and Terre Verte & Cad Yellow Hue .. On White Canvas
.
#8 = Cad Yellow Pale
#9 = Cad Yellow Hue which is a Medium To Dark Cad

impressionist2
08-16-2002, 11:29 AM
Wayne, Your cad yellow pale looks brighter than mine. My tube says Winsor Newton Artists Oil Colors. Cadmium Yellow Pale

What is Winton? Is that more expensive than artist oil colors? Mine was not cheap. Plus when I ordered from Jerry's they sent the same tubes. I thought artists oils were the top of the line.

Anyway, looks like I got a badly mixed batch cause mine is definietly not as bright as yours or Luis from the sound of it.

Renee

Wayne Gaudon
08-16-2002, 03:08 PM
Winton is cheaper oils .. using thick paint you don't need to use top of the line paint .. open to what you believe .. but it's my belief that you can use cheaper paints .. had a thread on it once .. can't remember .. Enion was on it and if I remember, was in agreement. I'll see if I can find it later.. right now I'm tied up .. did a few plein airs and have to go clean up my truck .. gather up my sunflowers for a still life, get some paint, ... Celebrate my new pleing air.. came off well .. will post it later tonight.

later...

Wayne Gaudon
08-16-2002, 09:29 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46054&highlight=paint+quality

Einion
08-17-2002, 12:05 AM
I sympathise Renee as I would expect this colour to be a lighter-valued yellow generally, but there is a good reason in this case. Winsor & Newton offer four cadmium yellows, Cadmium Lemon, Cadmium Yellow Pale, Cadmium Yellow and Cadmium Yellow Deep, and their hues are apparently fairly evenly spaced from green- through to orange-biased; their Cadmium Lemon is probably the hue you want. Do Classic offer a Cadmium Lemon by the way?

This is just an unfortunate case of different terminology from different makers and shows the value of hand-painted colour charts or checking tubes before you buy I'm afraid, as the same colour name from two makers can be very different colours indeed, even made using the same pigment number. There are a number of vague colour names that are fairly well known - some names aren't even associated with a specific hue universally, just look at the plethora of greens listed under Terre Verte - but I must admit this isn't one I would have expected a lot of variation on myself.

The Winton colours that Wayne and Luis mention are cadmium hues - alternative pigments in place of the costly cadmiums - so you can't expect their colours to be the same. They can sometimes get good matches with mixes but with a philosophy of using single-pigment colours as much as possible there are only a limited number from which to choose that fulfil other important criteria so they simply select a pigment with a hue that is close to what they want.

Einion

impressionist2
08-21-2002, 08:35 PM
Einion, Sorry, I drifted off to other things for the past couple of days.

Here's classic artist oils yellow chart. No cad lemon. Their cad yellow medium ( below) looks like the tube of WN cad yellow pale I have.

Renee

Einion
08-22-2002, 07:40 PM
I thought as much Renee, their Cad Yellow Pale occupies roughly the same position as W&N's Cad Lemon. Ah well, live and learn eh? :)

Einion

Patrick1
08-22-2002, 11:55 PM
Some of you have probably seen this; it's Handprint's 'cadmium key' which compares the hue differences for various brands of cadmium watercolors...If only there was one of these for oils and acrylics :(. Very interesting nonetheless.

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/cadkey.html

On a similar note, Grumbacher says that their cadmium maroon is the bluest cadmium on the market. But knowing the cadmium reds it's probably quite dark and dirty. They also say that they have the reddest ultramarine blue out there FWIW.

llis
08-23-2002, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
Thanks too for the vote of confidence as I struggle through conquering the style I am after. Influenced heavily by Sovek, Kroll-Roberts and another unknown local artist, I am finally painting everyday, as MacPherson advises and Struggling through, all the way. This is only half done. As in all self teaching, the painting is always a hairs breath away from being tossed!:D

It's always a miracle if it makes it to the finish line. We'll see if this one does.

Renee

Renee: Just wanted to tell you that you are an inspiration to me!

impressionist2
08-23-2002, 08:43 AM
Ilis, Gee, thank you. I am always shocked when someone says something like that to me.

Like two years ago, in the gallery when two artists that I admired came up and told me how "my style was changing and advancing". I didn't even know I had a style! ;)

I think so much about "where I am not at yet", that I forget where I am. If I am.

I feel like Alice, running to stay in the same place.

So much to learn, so little time.

Obsessed? Yes.

Renee

Einion
08-24-2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Domer
On a similar note, Grumbacher says that their cadmium maroon is the bluest cadmium on the market.... They also say that they have the reddest ultramarine blue out there FWIW.
Both most violet... urgh!

Einion