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naitek
11-18-2008, 06:41 AM
Dear all,

I just want to know if anyone knew the type/name brand of w.c. paper used by andrew wyeth and singer sargent?
i love the depth of their paintings, but no matter which paper i use, it doesn't look like theirs. the paint doesn't go on the same.

any suggestions would be awesome.

thanks,

ian

p.s. also , any place to download watercolor videos for free?

laudesan
11-18-2008, 08:00 AM
Have a look in he Learning Demo's in the Learning Zone for free videos.

Maybe a google of Andrew Wyeth and Singer-Sargent will give you your answers..

JJ

NodakerDeb
11-18-2008, 08:34 AM
I had the chance to view about 20 watercolor works by Andrew Wyeth when I was in South Carolina a few years back. What took me by surprise was how 'muddy' his paintings were, and yet they didn't look like mud if that makes sense. There is very little transparency with his work and for the most part the paint has more of a egg tempra look. I was blown away by how wonderful his work was and yet it is very different from typical watercolor paintings and technique. I don't think it's the paper, but rather how he applies the paint and how thickly -- both in layering and dry brushing.

Deb

JeffG
11-18-2008, 08:49 AM
Dear all,

I just want to know if anyone knew the type/name brand of w.c. paper used by andrew wyeth and singer sargent?
i love the depth of their paintings, but no matter which paper i use, it doesn't look like theirs. the paint doesn't go on the same.

any suggestions would be awesome.

thanks,

ian

p.s. also , any place to download watercolor videos for free?

Shoot, I was just at the Wyeth museum last week, poking my nose up against them, but I didn't note then. However, when Ive gone in the past, I noticed that some were done on Arches CP or rough (you can see the watermark in some), and using a very thick weight. He really cuts into the paper in some of them, especially the Helga-era ones.

Note that he has changed papers over the years, and probably still mixes it up to this day. Some, such as "Wolf Moon" and some newer ones use a paper that's relatively smooth but with a fine cloth-weave-like texture (what is that called?).

I was looking at "Wolf Moon" and was amused to see that it still had masking fluid or rubber cement on it that hadn't been removed and little balls of it stuck all over.

Also, Deb brings up a good point in that he does 2 types of watercolor: His looser, "wet" ones done in the field or studio with an almost violent intensity, and his drybrush watercolors that are sort of a bridge between his loose watercolors and his temperas. So depending on what you want to replicate, you might find he uses different papers for those.

John Preston
11-18-2008, 12:06 PM
I saw several of his works at the Brandywine Museum in Chadds Ford, PA. I agree with Deb: It's not the paper it's how he painted on it.

Several seemed to have a texture that looked like he used quite a bit of gum arabic (or maybe soap?). Those passages appeared to have slosh marks and even small bubbles which looked as though a wash dried instantly without softening - hence my guess some thickening agent was used. It appeared most often in dark green passages, such as foliage, and was quite calculated to give a sense of texture - it wasn't sloppy technique.

I did read a quote by him where he mentions using ink with watercolor to get strong darks. He's a committed rule breaker.

JustinM
11-18-2008, 12:29 PM
I don't think it's the paper, but rather how he applies the paint and how thickly -- both in layering and dry brushing.
Deb

Bang on assessment, imho.

I did read a quote by him where he mentions using ink with watercolor to get strong darks. He's a committed rule breaker.
Once again proving that the only "rule" in art is: Learn the rules, know them, break them. :)

The OP asked about Singer Sargent's materials also. There was a member here who posted an except from a book on sargent's style (only one printing & I havent found it online for less than $200 :( ). Anyway, I dont believe brand of paper was mentioned (perhaps he used a brand thats no longer available) but I am pretty sure it said he used mostly W&N to start & then experimented more with Rowney & a couple of other brands.

Again though, I think the materials are inconsequential. Any good quality paint & paper will serve you well & indeed there are better quality products now that were not even available when Sargent was alive or when Wyeth was more prolific.

Considering we are talking about 2 of the greatest watercolour painters of all time, it may be impossible for any of us to match their depth or technique - but thats half the fun: Trying ;)

mimitabby
11-18-2008, 05:50 PM
Amazingly Andrew Wyeth is STILL painting! He is 91 years old.

http://www.andrewwyeth.com/

naitek
11-18-2008, 08:03 PM
what a wealth of information everyone. All i have for reference here is books and it would be great to see them up close.

more practice then....

Lemonhead
11-18-2008, 09:05 PM
I'm not sure about Wyeth but Sargent painted on "J. Whatman" watercolor paper which is no longer in production and has not been for some time. They don't make'm like they used to!

A good book that I have that talks in depth about Sargent's technique and materials (along with W. Homer) is:
American Traditions in Watercolor: The Worcester Art Museum Collection by Donelson Hoopes, Susan E. Strickler, and Judith Walsh.
If you do a used book search you can find it very cheap, a good book though.

After seeing Homers' exhibit in Chicago this summer, I tried to find a paper similar to his (he also used J. Whatman paper), and the closest one that I could find that 'looked' similar was Arches #300 Hot Pressed paper. For some reason the #300 paper is different than the #140 paper, the #300 HP paper has a felt-like surface it is not completely a smooth plate-like surface like the #140 paper. I bought several sheets and have enjoyed using them and have tried some of his techniques.

I hope that helps.

Does anyone know of Wyeth's techniques either by website or book?

dpcoffin
11-19-2008, 01:03 AM
I've never read what Wyeth uses for papers, but it's clear from just looking that in most of his early watercolors he used both cold-pressed and hot-pressed surfaces, with very different, but very understandable, results. Here (http://idisk.mac.com/davidpagecoffin/Public/Pictures/Skitch/DryWetScrape03.jpg-20081118-202109.jpg), for example, and here (http://idisk.mac.com/davidpagecoffin/Public/Pictures/Skitch/DryWetScrape09.jpg-20081118-205603.jpg), you can clearly see the soft, textureless "wash" gradations typical of wet-brush-on-wet-paper techniques on CP or rough paper, along with the pebbled textures you get when dry-brush and brush-handle dragging on CP paper. You can't get such brush-stroke-free graded-wash effects easily on a HP paper, and you can't get pebbly-paper effects at all from a paper without a pebbled surface. His drawn, linear strokes are simple, limited to what you can get with a brush handle or a knife scratching into wet paint.

Here (http://idisk.mac.com/davidpagecoffin/Public/Pictures/Skitch/DryWetScrape05.jpg-20081118-202244.jpg), and here (http://idisk.mac.com/davidpagecoffin/Public/Pictures/Skitch/DryWetScrape07.jpg-20081118-205454.jpg), though, it's obvious that the paper is a hot-pressed or plate surface paper or bristol board, since the textures come not from the paper surface dominating the brush marks, but the reverse: the brush marks are revealed perfectly by the basically textureless paper, and smooth, washed gradations aren't attempted. He's either using the paint very dry or scarcely diluted, or adding some kind of soapy, gummy thickener, on a dry paper. His drawn strokes here are from the pointed brush tip, and they're highly detailed, setting him up for the dry-brush drawn-texture techniques he later became famous for.

It's easy to imagine that he was wishing for a paper/brush/paint combo that would give him the best of both worlds, and you can see him sometimes managing to get one surface to act like the other.

dc

Neeman
11-19-2008, 01:07 AM
I don't think it's the paper, but rather how he applies the paint and how thickly -- both in layering and dry brushing.
Deb

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Also Whatman is still made in England
http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/item_whatman_watercolour_paper.htm

juneto
11-19-2008, 03:35 AM
Interesting ! And nice to see Deb here again !
I have some watercolors by John Smiley, the President and Founder of the American Watercolor Society and I believe from that same period .
They ,also look like thick paint has been applied, but are not especially dark .
I would love for you to see them , the details are Amazing.
It really looks like Gouache , some thin , some thick , which they may have called watercolor then and I suppose it is .
I will try to get some pictures of them . such fine work
June

juneto
11-19-2008, 03:43 AM
He is James Smillie . I had forgotten his first name and proper spelling
His 2 sons were also artists . Sorry !
June.

painterbear
11-19-2008, 06:45 AM
Interesting discussion about Wyeth and Sargent's techniques and materials.

Last Christmas, my son gave me a wonderful book called Andrew Wyeth Autobiography written in 1995. It was published on the occasion of the 1995 retrospective exhibiton held in Kansas City, Missouri at The Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art. What makes it wonderful is that each page has a large, full-color photo of one of Wyeth's paintings accompanied by his comments on how or why he painted it. I recommend it to anyone who loves Andrew Wyeth's works.

any place to download watercolor videos for free?

Click on the link to the Learning Demos in my signature line. Right at the top you will find more than 20 links to watercolor videos by many of the members you will find here in the Watercolor Forum as well as others. Happy viewing and painting.

Sylvia

Gary B.
11-19-2008, 11:36 AM
For what it's worth, Victoria Wyeth, who is granddaughter of Andrew Wyeth, great granddaughter of N. C. Wyeth, and niece of Jamie Wyeth, while giving a tour of the fabulous Wyeth collection at the Farnsworth Museum in Rockland, Maine, said that Andrew has always liked Fabriano Artistico. Somehow, I don't think his work is the result of the paper used, however.

JustinM
11-19-2008, 12:40 PM
A good book that I have that talks in depth about Sargent's technique and materials (along with W. Homer) is:
American Traditions in Watercolor: The Worcester Art Museum Collection by Donelson Hoopes, Susan E. Strickler, and Judith Walsh.
If you do a used book search you can find it very cheap, a good book though.

Thanks for the tip! I just picked up a copy on amazon for $5 - there are still several left at roughly that price. ;)

dpcoffin
11-19-2008, 03:41 PM
Also Whatman is still made in England
http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/item_whatman_watercolour_paper.htm


You can be sure it's NOT the same stuff Sargent used; I've bought a good many sheets of vintage, stockpiled WC paper, including some Whatman's, AND tried some of the newer Whatman's from one of their recent reincarnations (not tried the currently-available papers, but this Handbrake review (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/paper2l.html) makes it clear that this is yet again different from what I tried), and it's basically a depressing experience, first because it's terrible to get a taste of a fascinating paper you know you'll probably never see again, and because the new stuff was such a disappointment. In fact I thought it was from a defective batch, it was so blotter-like. Never bothered to pursue it further; there's plenty of other great papers, and it's too true: It's the painter, not the paper.

dc

Pandemonium
11-19-2008, 08:38 PM
For what it's worth, Victoria Wyeth, who is granddaughter of Andrew Wyeth, great granddaughter of N. C. Wyeth, and niece of Jamie Wyeth, while giving a tour of the fabulous Wyeth collection at the Farnsworth Museum in Rockland, Maine, said that Andrew has always liked Fabriano Artistico. Somehow, I don't think his work is the result of the paper used, however.
Gary: thank you for that. The surface of Fabriano Artistico HP 300 lb is much smoother than Arches 300 lb, which is so felty and absorptive, so I could definitely see Wyeth using it for many works.

I wonder why the surface of Arches 300 lb HP is so wildly different from their 140 lb and from Fabriano 300 lb HP? The Fabriano clearly shows it's possible to get a smooth -- what one would expect from HP -- surface in a 300 lb weight. The Arches 300 lb HP seems more like Fabriano's "soft" surface, a cross between HP and CP, but fuzzier. I found it difficult to work on.

Vincent40
12-12-2009, 03:52 PM
I ve done some searching on the www but no pic or whatever of his technique, paper or Studio I could find, gess he thought it was not that important.:confused:

PCool
12-27-2009, 05:33 AM
In Carl Little's (1998) book, "The Watercolors of John Singer Sargeant" a lot of the watercolors are done on "wove" paper. This paper was made by Whatman. Here is link about the paper:
http://www.yale.edu/opa/arc-ybc/v34.n19/story11.html

Only the 140 lb, cold pressed available:

http://www.nycentralartsupply.com/europeii/unitedkingdom.html

Vincent40
12-27-2009, 06:43 AM
Saunders Waterford is from the same factory as Whatman, I have read in a test bout aging of watercolor paper.

The gelatine they add to get a stronger surace gives a disadvantage for the paper as it gives a brown color by aging.

After digging about Andrew Wyeth someone said he did use Fabriana Artistico.

All bits help:thumbsup:

In Carl Little's (1998) book, "The Watercolors of John Singer Sargeant" a lot of the watercolors are done on "wove" paper. This paper was made by Whatman. Here is link about the paper:
http://www.yale.edu/opa/arc-ybc/v34.n19/story11.html

Only the 140 lb, cold pressed available:

http://www.nycentralartsupply.com/europeii/unitedkingdom.html

Scene Chaser
12-27-2009, 02:06 PM
I have read that Wyeth used Whatman, but the Whatman he used is no longer made. His family bought up the remaining stock for themselves. They also made and sold a Wyeth watercolor paper. But, I do not know where or if it is still available. Andrew has since died since this thread was started.
Bill

mimitabby
12-27-2009, 02:10 PM
yes but his website will live forever! http://andrewwyeth.com

and of course so many of his paintings!

ReggieS
12-27-2009, 03:41 PM
Just read this article about how he painted in drybrush in multiple layers to create a woven look.
Here is the link:
http://www.petervnielsen.dk/Drybrush_Andrew_Wyeth.sh


Reggie
****
When I tried to go into this link it wouldn't work buy if you type in the nielsen info you can find it.

grainne
12-27-2009, 11:12 PM
http://www.petervnielsen.dk/Drybrush_Andrew_Wyeth.shtml

This is an excellent article, beautifully illustrated.

Grainne

claude j greengrass
10-07-2010, 11:06 AM
Saunders Waterford is from the same factory as Whatman, I have read in a test bout aging of watercolor paper.

The gelatine they add to get a stronger surace gives a disadvantage for the paper as it gives a brown color by aging.
...
Sorry to disagree, but Saunders Waterford is not made by the same company.

"...The following year, 1740, Ann Harris married James Whatman and they took up residence in Turkey Court (part of Turkey Mill) which had been built towards the end of the seventeenth century under George Gill’s tenancy. Whatman completed the rebuilding works and under his stewardship the mill became the largest in the country and established an international reputation for producing fine quality ‘wove’ paper...."

"...1976 Turkey Mill was bought by Wiggins Teape and closed down, the production being transferred to Stoneywood, near Aberdeen, so bringing to an end over 280 years of continuous paper making at Turkey Mill..."
http://www.turkeymill.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=61

Saunders-Waterford is made at St Cuthberts Mill, Wells, Somerset, England.
http://www.stcuthbertsmill.com/index.asp

I don't know about the degradation of gelatine turning brown, but S-W paper is endorsed by the Royal Watercolour Society. Any citations for this nugget of information as gelatine sizing is used in the manufacture of a number of different papers: Arches Aquarelle, Fabriano, Twinrocker, and Windsor & Newton, to name a few?

Vincent40
10-07-2010, 01:23 PM
Whathever, the Sounders WaterFord paper made today is horrible anyway.



Sorry to disagree, but Saunders Waterford is not made by the same company.

"...The following year, 1740, Ann Harris married James Whatman and they took up residence in Turkey Court (part of Turkey Mill) which had been built towards the end of the seventeenth century under George Gill’s tenancy. Whatman completed the rebuilding works and under his stewardship the mill became the largest in the country and established an international reputation for producing fine quality ‘wove’ paper...."

"...1976 Turkey Mill was bought by Wiggins Teape and closed down, the production being transferred to Stoneywood, near Aberdeen, so bringing to an end over 280 years of continuous paper making at Turkey Mill..."
http://www.turkeymill.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=61

Saunders-Waterford is made at St Cuthberts Mill, Wells, Somerset, England.
http://www.stcuthbertsmill.com/index.asp

I don't know about the degradation of gelatine turning brown, but S-W paper is endorsed by the Royal Watercolour Society. Any citations for this nugget of information as gelatine sizing is used in the manufacture of a number of different papers: Arches Aquarelle, Fabriano, Twinrocker, and Windsor & Newton, to name a few?

AmyLC
10-07-2010, 01:29 PM
LOL If buying the right paper could make my paintings look like Andrew Wyeth's....I'd fill my basement with the stuff!! ;)


edited to add: Oops. Didn't realize I was adding to an old thread.

Neeman
10-07-2010, 03:11 PM
I was just at the Tate Reading Rooms

I saw two technical books on the papers Turner used.
Part two discussed his later papers where he used the many paper mills making Watercolor Paper, not just Whatman.
He died about the same time Sargent was born

Looking at his Color Beginnings, the papers he used was much lighter than anything we would ever use. Not more than 72 lbs to 90 lbs.


Whatman PLC is alive and kicking and making paper
But it is chemical filtration paper!
They have stopped their watercolor papers

claude j greengrass
11-07-2010, 01:19 PM
Whathever, the Sounders WaterFord paper made today is horrible anyway.
I welcome your opinions but how about adding some justification to them re: your dislike of Saunders-Waterford paper, like "the surface is too hard and it seems to repel paint", or "the Cold Press is to soft and it's like painting on blotting paper", or whatever. That way, others can benefit from your personal experience.

I've never used S-W Hot Press, so it may be crap. I mainly paint landscapes, and really like the rough texture of the 200# and 300# S-W paper.

dpcoffin
11-02-2012, 09:16 PM
I've never read what Wyeth uses for papers, but it's clear from just looking that in most of his early watercolors he used both cold-pressed and hot-pressed surfaces, with very different, but very understandable, results. Here (http://idisk.mac.com/davidpagecoffin/Public/Pictures/Skitch/DryWetScrape03.jpg-20081118-202109.jpg), for example, and here (http://idisk.mac.com/davidpagecoffin/Public/Pictures/Skitch/DryWetScrape09.jpg-20081118-205603.jpg), you can clearly see the soft, textureless "wash" gradations typical of wet-brush-on-wet-paper techniques on CP or rough paper, along with the pebbled textures you get when dry-brush and brush-handle dragging on CP paper. You can't get such brush-stroke-free graded-wash effects easily on a HP paper, and you can't get pebbly-paper effects at all from a paper without a pebbled surface. His drawn, linear strokes are simple, limited to what you can get with a brush handle or a knife scratching into wet paint.

Here (http://idisk.mac.com/davidpagecoffin/Public/Pictures/Skitch/DryWetScrape05.jpg-20081118-202244.jpg), and here (http://idisk.mac.com/davidpagecoffin/Public/Pictures/Skitch/DryWetScrape07.jpg-20081118-205454.jpg), though, it's obvious that the paper is a hot-pressed or plate surface paper or bristol board, since the textures come not from the paper surface dominating the brush marks, but the reverse: the brush marks are revealed perfectly by the basically textureless paper, and smooth, washed gradations aren't attempted. He's either using the paint very dry or scarcely diluted, or adding some kind of soapy, gummy thickener, on a dry paper. His drawn strokes here are from the pointed brush tip, and they're highly detailed, setting him up for the dry-brush drawn-texture techniques he later became famous for.

It's easy to imagine that he was wishing for a paper/brush/paint combo that would give him the best of both worlds, and you can see him sometimes managing to get one surface to act like the other.

dc

A link to this thread from a more recent one led me to discover that the links in my old post have died (thank you Apple!). So here they are along with a few new ones, all scanned from a wonderful book (http://www.amazon.com/Unknown-Terrain-Landscapes-Whitney-American/dp/0810968274/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1351901448&sr=8-9&keywords=Andrew+Wyeth) on Wyeth's watercolors which also includes many dry-brush and tempera works for comparison (same book ref'ed in the Peter V. article linked to here).

Textured paper (CP? ROUGH?):
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2012/60520-Wyeth_1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2012/60520-Wyeth_4.jpg

Plate paper (HP? Bristol?)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2012/60520-Wyeth_2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2012/60520-Wyeth_5.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2012/60520-Wyeth_6.jpg

It does seem that he's much more likely to choose smooth than textured papers, if the images in the book are representative.

dpc

zoodlemaker
11-04-2012, 07:52 AM
Interesting thread to re-vitalize. You got me looking Wyeth up, and I came upon this quote on his use of dry brushing:

"I work in drybrush when my emotion gets deep enough into a subject. I paint with a smaller brush, dip it into color, splay out the brush and bristles, squeeze out a good deal of the moisture and color with my fingers so that there's only a very small amount of paint left. It's a weaving process - one applies layers of drybrush over and within the broad washes of watercolor. And I sometimes throw in pencil and Higgins' ink.”
-Andrew Wyeth

This man is not afraid to use and abuse his tools and medium to get the results he wants.

H2Ohpainter
11-17-2012, 12:52 PM
I am new to Wet canvas am have been painting W.C.'s for many years.
The Brandywine Rv. Museum is offering tours of the Andrew Wyeth studio. I went on the tour a couple of weeks ago and while on the tour I noticed a large roll of W/C paper in a closet. It was standing on end and was appx.
60" high with a dia. of appx. 15". The docent said, "the paper is manufactured in Italy and costs $2500 to ship to the U.S." (it must have occupied a 1st class seat ;-) ) I asked if the manufacturer was Fabriano and she said "yes!". I then ask if I could feel the paper
and she said she would look away (wink,wink). It was 140# cold press.
She said that he did tempera on gessoed birch panels that a local gent prepared for him and son Jamie.
The studio tour is wonderful and hopefully you will have the opportunity to take it.
Check the Museum web site because the tour ceases during the Christmas holiday and resumes in the Spring.
Jim