iCab

[arcitect]

This may be of interest, as you are all on-line too! I have been running the final draught of iCab all day, and so far it is really nice. It may turn out to be my browser of choice.

WetCanvas gets the "purple getting mad face" ["Altogether 53 errors found." -iCab], but my sites have been having issues of their own [less errors, but more disruptive in nature] - as have most of the sites I have checked.

I recommend iCab, especially if you are building your own websites-it points out your HTML4 non-compliances, and runs real well. It also gives you alot of control over the browser settings.

Just spreading the word -Microsoft and NetScape are not your only real options anymore!

note: You will have to run a MAC though. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by arcitect (edited May 22, 2000).]

[scottb]

Of course, let's point out that total compliance with HTML 4 is not necessary, nor required to render in any 3.0+ modern browser...

Cheers.
Scott

[Rod]

It will take more than that to drag me away from my netscape, besides I don't use a Mac,
Rod,

[oleCC]

Ditto Rod !!! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif Carol
PS: Do you use netscape 6.0 Rod? If so, any gliches?

[This message has been edited by oleCC (edited May 23, 2000).]

[Mich451]

Oh,no. Do I detect a Mac vs. PC debate?

[sgtaylor]

Originally posted by arcitect:

note: You will have to run a MAC though. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif

a MAC?!! Too Funny!!!!

[bruin70]

well mich,,,i've never used a mac, though all my art/photog type friends love em. but when i've tinkered at the store, there is one small thing that bothered me about the mac. the cursor is slow and doesn't respond quickly. and i've tried about 8 macs....{M}

[arcitect]

I think HTML4 strict is very important to the furthering of web design capabilities and their cross platform functionality.

As far as the cursor, you may have to buy a two button mouse -the drivers are usually much much faster. My mouse is real fast -but it is an old one, the pucks are notoriously bad.

MACs age very well and, if you dump the cash into them, they are monsters. The OS's are generally nicer and more stable than Windows, and Linux is a bit complex for the common user yet.

The PCs I use work well enough, they seem to cop out on heavy audio/visual programs a little more often, but all in all they work fine and save you some money.
They have a lot more low end apps too, saves you more money.

I have given up NetScape -outdated and unsupported. But then again, IE for MAC was rewriiten just for MACs and runs alot better than PC version.

[arcitect]

HTML4 strict compliance is really hard to do! No shame in bending the rules!

[Rod]

Hi Carol,
using 4.7 and 6.0 at the moment only glitch I get is with mail in 4.7 occassionaly,
Rod

[Miltz]

A Mac /PC debate? Oh, I gotta get in on that!
I have both, I bought the PC to run some high powered animation software a few years ago but use a Mac by preference. The Mac interface is far superior and the user experience extremely similar across different applications IMHO. Mainstream art applications, particularly Adobe products like photoshop and illustrator seem to run better on the mac versions.
As far as cursor responce, Milt, my guess is that the store macs you have tried were badly set up, usually store personel at mass marketers are clueless about macs. Cursor response is variable and set up in a simple control panel. My PCs mouse and pressure sensitive tablet are jerky and unresponsive in comparison to my Macs. Also, the 233 G3 upgraded 5 year old mac I use in the house is a bit faster than the Dual 266 pentium 2 (2 years old) I have in my studio, even thugh the PC has faster SCSI throughput.
On the other hand the PC is a more stable box when operating Windows NT, though I have to use Windows 98 when playing games. on the other hand, who has time for games anyway?
The other real benefit to macs is that when they screw up, you can fix them yourself. I can reload all my system software without reinstalling any applications and have a fresh clean computer in about 20 minutes. Last time NT broke it took about 5 hours to do the same job, since unless you like to play with the code in the registry you have to reload EVERYTHING seperately. OUCH!
-Mark

[loenart]

PC-MAC Debate

My last job I worked in an art department where we used Macs for years. A new department head did a wholesale swap-out with PCs. The main justification was the PC's dominance in "market share". ie: more software and more compatibility with other computers.

Question for Arcitecht

Needless to say, the move was not popular, people liked their Macs (including me). But now after years of working with PC and Mac (I had both types of computers on my desk, networked together) The Mac's design, esthetics and simple hardware and software management were a pleasure to use. But since then we moved from slow Power PC Macs to very fast Windows PCs, the Macs suffered in that comparison.

The PCs (Windows NT) actually crash a lot less than the Macs did. But again I'm comparing new PCs to old Macs.

My main beef with all the PC and Mac manufacturers: why don't all the programs, fonts, hardware work across all platforms? Adobe Illustrator, FrameMaker, Photoshop and Acrobat are cross-platform, why can't all the manufacturers do the same?

The font issue is another nightmare.

I know this doesn't have anything to do with the iCab browser, but the rant was enjoyable.

Question for Arcitect
I create very simple HTML pages. But even in those simple designs the two browsers sometimes see the pages differently. Does HTML4 eliminate those inconsistencies? Also, do you have to write the code or is there a page composer that utilizies HTML4?

Funniest thing. I was writing about pros and cons of computers and I was suddenly locked out of this web site for a few hours....?



[This message has been edited by loenart (edited May 25, 2000).]

[oleCC]

Thanks Rod, for the response. I am still using 4.5 - and was considering 6.0, if you aren't having any problems, may just go for it. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif Carol

[arcitect]

The PCs (Windows NT) actually crash a lot less than the Macs did. But again I'm comparing new PCs to old Macs.

NT is pretty stable, but when she drops, she falls hard.

OS 9 is pretty stable too, but I went and put 9.4 in like an idiot. It seems to be a bit hostile towards MSIE and AIM, both suddenly quitting for no apparent reason. The Multi-User environment can get shakey from time to time, also. All in all, it is much more stable than any "civilian" Windows machines I use. Given the money we dumped into the new gear, it may not qualify as civilian, though.

Right now, I am using an old Performa 200mHz PPC, and it runs most of today's non-gaming software real well, and at a good clip. They age real well.

My main beef with all the PC and Mac manufacturers: why don't all the programs, fonts, hardware work across all platforms? Adobe Illustrator, FrameMaker, Photoshop and Acrobat are cross-platform, why can't all the manufacturers do the same?

Lots of reasons. MACs hardware architecture is nothing like the PC architecture. They look alike, but they work differently. The Adobe products are, in my opinion, drasticly different on the two platforms. You have to trick a PC into doing MAC oriented processing, and vice versa. You also have to keep in mind that if everything is universal, the best product at the lowest cost wins -and we can't have that, can we? And, every programmer I have ever met has their own way of doing things, which they swear to be better than any other programmer's way of doing things. I doubt we will ever win this one, though I beleive the future will find us all using systems which resemble webTV, only far superior.

The font issue is another nightmare.

Fonts are usually copyrighted and owned by someone or some entity. They are property.


I create very simple HTML pages. But even in those simple designs the two browsers sometimes see the pages differently. Does HTML4 eliminate those inconsistencies? Also, do you have to write the code or is there a page composer that utilizies HTML4?

The browsers are all a mess. I work around NetScape 4.5, as it is IMHO a peice of garbage. If it works on NS it should work on anything, but there are exceptions. You always have to check it on both the major browsers. HTML4 strict is not friendly towards 4th generation browsers, you can only get about 85% up to code. IF everyone who does sites would play hardball and write STRICT, it would eventually eliminate the problems we have now. A lot of people would have to be cut out of the loop to do this.

I do everything by hand, and am not aware of an editor that does STRICT. I am not aware of an editor that does not write real messy code, period.

If they are small, why not punch it yourself? Join the Matrix wholeheartedly and go "command-line".

[Rod]

Hi Carol,
Download netscape 6.0 and it will run independant to your existing 4.5, then you can try both and decide which to keep,
Rod

[loenart]

You seem to know a lot about the inner workings of these machines. I know very little. Like I tell people, I know how to use a computer not how they work. In my opinion they should just work and we shouldn't have to learn about dll's, .ini files, and memorize the Microsoft technical support page.

I haven't used any present generaton Macs. We opted out at system 7.5. I did get to the point where I could keep the Macs running for our department(they are much less cryptic than the PCs). We were a Mac island in a company that manufactured PCs (Toshiba). The Macs were relatively stable but not without crash problems. The first PCs we got were awful, crash, crash, crash. Then we installed NT.. much better, a program might crash but you didn't have to reboot incessantly. I guess Windows 2000 is the next step but I'm hesitant to make the move until I see it in action. Didn't use Windows 98 at all, just stayed with NT, even at home.

I resist typing in code, seems like old fashioned typesetting and tedious besides. I guess if you want consistant results that is the way to go.

Thanks for the info. I just want to make illustrations on the computer, but I get sucked into the operation system vortex.

Seems like the general public is a giant beta site for the PC manufacturers. The half-perfect them and let the public brain trust figure out ways to actually make them work.

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Michael Loen

[arcitect]

Rush to market. A bad product you put out now is more profitable than a good one five years from now.

Windows 2000 looks pretty scary from here. I would stick with what works now until it is no longer adequate for your purposes. The devil you know and all that.

My business partner takes the opposite approach, but he spends much more time babysitting than I do.

Oh, and avoid Unreal like the plague -that game is a mess!

[loenart]

What is unreal? (sounds like a metaphysical question).

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Michael Loen

[oleCC]

Ok Rod.....gotcha...thanks http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif Carol

[arcitect]

Originally posted by loenart:
What is unreal? (sounds like a metaphysical question).



It is a tournament first person shooter which renders on the fly and drops bad files all over the place.

[loenart]

It is a tournament first person shooter which renders on the fly and drops bad files all over the
place.

You lost me. It's a game?

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Michael Loen

[arcitect]

Originally posted by loenart:
You lost me. It's a game?



It is one of those games you hear about on talkshows. It is a very fast, graphic intensive, kill 'em all game which is played by many people at one time on-line.

[loenart]

That will be easy to avoid. I've no interest in computer games.

I guess you did say it was a game at first. I thought you were using an idiomatic computer phrase for an operating system. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/redface.gif

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Michael Loen

[Painter]

The jargon is dense here! I've been using IBM clones for years now. I've just started setting up for graphics, and the jargon befuddles me every time.

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God Blesses!
Ched

[loenart]

My IRQ settings messed with my SCSI boot sequence so I IM'ed a friend in IT who thought it was conflicting with my TCP/IP Netbios. He wrote up a solution using HTML4, Java and Perl and IRQ'ed it to MSN. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/confused.gif

Just kidding.

------------------
Michael Loen

[eyeburp]

This may be a little late, but I use a Mac G3, OS 9, Netscape 4.7. I got into the chat area without any problems (although I was all alone). It took about a minute before the chat window opened.