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judithj
10-01-2008, 12:41 PM
Hello there

I paint with acrylics and I am going to try using a limited pallet and I would like to have a red similar in quality to Alizarin Crimson included, but I am not sure which one to use. I have been using Quinacridone Magenta and quite like it, but it is not as dark as traditional Alizarin Crimson and I am not sure if it is the best for versility of mixing - which is so important for the pigments included on a limited pallet.

I am using the Tri-Art high viscosity brand of acrylics and they make an Alizarin Crimson Hue with a composition of:
PR 170 12475 Naphthol
PR 101 77491 Iron Oxide
PV 23 51319 Dioxazine

Do you think that this would be a good choice or do you think another would be a better solution?

Many thanks for reading, Judith

Brian Firth
10-01-2008, 03:57 PM
The Tri-Art blend has always seemed a little strange to me, although I do really like Tri-Art acrylics. In acrylics I believe PR177 (M. Graham makes and excellent version) or PR264 (Liquitex offers this pigment, but is opaque. The transparent version is better if you can find it.) are the closest replacement to alizarin crimson, although no pigment is an exact match. You may want to check out Tri-Art's Permanent Crimson (PR122, PR101) or Burnt Crimson (PR254, PR48).

No matter what, in my opinion, quinacridone magenta is generally going to be a better all around mixing pigment than a crimson pigment.

judithj
10-01-2008, 07:55 PM
Many Thanks Brian, I do love my Quinacridone Magenta. I just may stick with it and forget the Alizarin Crimson.

Warmest Regards, Judith

sidbledsoe
10-01-2008, 10:49 PM
I haven't tried this with acrylics but I will let you in on my secret formula for alizarin crimson with oil colors. I have tried many combinations of mixes to try and duplicate pr83. The very best match I can get so far is pv19, thalo red rose with some pv23 diox violet added to it. Like your quin magenta (pr122), pv19 is not as dark as pr83 but when you add the pv23 it is close. (by the way the quin magenta is a pigment red, pv122 and the quin red is a pigment violet pv19, nice the way they name these things isn't it, but the variance in shades overlap I suppose) In oils my mix retains the transparency well and I get it about as dark and the color matches very close down in tints which is where I want it to mostly. The other mixes I have tried all seem dull and off color and more opaque. I don't like the looks of that formula with a napthol pr170 and a mars orange pr101 because I can't see it as vibrant and transparent as pr83 but maybe for acrylics that is less important. The replacement of Aliz crimson is a much sought after thing and some of the hues they have work but of couse are not really close like my formula is, sorry Gamblin et al regards Sid

awerth
10-01-2008, 11:50 PM
I've never used "real" Alizarin Crimson, so I don't know how close it gets, but the Golden acrylic color Quinacridone Crimson (PR202/PR206) is excellent.

http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/color/heavybody/colors/1290infopg.php

It has a very dark masstone and is a strong, transparent color that's great for mixing. Mix it with Phthalos and you can get rich, dark blacks or purples.

Golden also offers a suggestion if you wanted to mix your own by combining 10 parts Quinacridone Violet (PV19) with 12 parts Quinacridone Burnt Orange (PR206) (a great color, btw). You could try something like that with your Tri-Arts...

For one other suggestion, Golden uses a combo of PR122 / PR206 / PG7 (Quin Magenta, Quin Burnt Orange, and Phth Green) for their Alizarin Crimson Hue in their Golden Open line. I don't like this mixture as much as their regular Quinacridone Crimson, but it's all that's available in the Open line.

One consideration with using Dioxazine purple in the mixture you propose, I think, is that it's usually Lightfastness II. Still artist grade and a great color, but something to think about.

nit-wit
10-02-2008, 03:57 AM
Unfortunately Alizarin Crimson is irreplaceable. The real stuff is so strong that it can leave your painting looking as though it's literally bleeding. Quinacridone is ok. What a dreadful loss to painting this beautiful but impermanent lake is. The pigment police are gaining strength, now we shouldn't really even be using zinc white.

Andrew

Daniel_OB
10-02-2008, 06:10 PM
One should search replacement just in the case he knows exactly he want and what are his tolerances on hue, permanence, value, drying tume,...
if a particular pigment is out of tolerances than search for something else acceptable.

I guess you are concern with Aliz. Crims. permanence. It can play important role only if you are comissioned by a large museum like Prado (Madrid), colector,...:eek:

Making painting that will accompany furniture style (or like) and will finish after some decades (in the best case) in the garage, and looking for alizarin crims. replacement is extremely out of smartness even for the lowest grade of the pigment. As Nit-wit said, it is unreplaceable pigment, and searching for replacement just will make you low-class amateur.

sidbledsoe
10-02-2008, 07:48 PM
Hey that is me in a nutshell (a very low class amateur)
Maybe I should paint with fugitives only!

Daniel_OB
10-03-2008, 07:50 AM
... and what the difference it will make?

Get the best and most expensive Cleasens linen, prime with the best Lead White, wait one year to dry, get all Cobalts from Old Holland, use WN Series-7 brushes,... and make a painting that will get stuck in someones garage after couple of years just because the painting owner is changing his furniture and you painting does not fit anymore. Man, make some basic common sense.
When Prado Madrid order a painting from you with their technical specification than is time to think as you think now.:wave:

awerth
10-03-2008, 09:34 AM
... and what the difference it will make?

Get the best and most expensive Cleasens linen, prime with the best Lead White, wait one year to dry, get all Cobalts from Old Holland, use WN Series-7 brushes,... and make a painting that will get stuck in someones garage after couple of years just because the painting owner is changing his furniture and you painting does not fit anymore. Man, make some basic common sense.
When Prado Madrid order a painting from you with their technical specification than is time to think as you think now.:wave:

That is a very sad statement about art-making... Some people aim higher than that, whether they get there or not. It really takes very little effort to work with lightfast paints, and anyone who is just buying your work to hang over their couch for a couple of years certainly won't notice that you didn't use genuine Alizarin Crimson.

And, by the way, it's not just the Prado that might appreciate your painting lasting a while. If you paint a really good couch-hanger-over, your customer's descendants might like for it to hang over their couches some day.

sidbledsoe
10-03-2008, 09:46 AM
:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :p :thumbsup: :wink2: :lol:

Daniel_OB
10-03-2008, 11:46 AM
that is right :lol:

JamieWG
10-03-2008, 01:32 PM
When Prado Madrid order a painting from you with their technical specification than is time to think as you think now.:wave:

Actually, if the Prado orders a painting from you, you can paint with any fugitive pigments you'd like. They'll be sure to keep the painting in lighting that will assure it won't fade, and they'll take care of any other flaws in your technique or use of materials through many thousands of dollars in restoration costs and trained technicians.

However, if it's unlikely that your paintings will end up in a museum with a full staff catering to their needs, then your works will need to withstand the test of time all by themselves. In that case, you'd better have used lightfast pigments, a good archival support, easily removable varnish, and sound methods and materials.

Well, that's my philosophy anyway.

Judith, to answer your original question, I think you'll have to try a number of those Alizarin hues and see which ones you like best. I find some of them to be quite dirty in mixes. Quin magenta is good stuff! Also, pyrrole red (not pyrrole red light) is a great red that can mix violets pretty well.

Jamie

Einion
10-03-2008, 01:42 PM
I paint with acrylics and I am going to try using a limited pallet and I would like to have a red similar in quality to Alizarin Crimson included, but I am not sure which one to use.
How small do you want it to be Judith? There are some previous threads on limited palettes (and limiting palettes) that you may be interested in having a scan through.

I have been using Quinacridone Magenta and quite like it, but it is not as dark as traditional Alizarin Crimson and I am not sure if it is the best for versility of mixing - which is so important for the pigments included on a limited pallet.
As Brian mentions Quin Magenta would be a much more versatile mixer than Alizarin Crimson or anything similar to it.

Quinacridone Rose is substituted for PR122 by some people who like it for not being quite so artificial looking. In practice, where we put theory aside, the magenta is better for violet-side mixes, the rose for red-side mixes.

I am using the Tri-Art high viscosity brand of acrylics...
Good choice BTW http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif Lovely paint.


Unfortunately Alizarin Crimson is irreplaceable.
Think about all the painters who do similar work where one can't tell who uses it and who doesn't.

The pigment police are gaining strength...
That's an unfair characterisation of people who value permanence.


I guess you are concern with Aliz. Crims. permanence. It can play important role only if you are comissioned by a large museum like Prado (Madrid), colector,...:eek:
Only if you're commissioned by a large museum or a collector? Don't be ridiculous.

Einion

judithj
10-06-2008, 12:13 AM
Hi Everyone

Thanks for all of these great answers -

Hi Sid, I have never used Thalo Red Rose and now I want to try it, do they make that for acrylics? I have the Diox Violet and really love that colour! Thanks for this suggestion. red rose is a violet pigment - go figure.

Hi Andrew
I have never used "real" Alizarin Crimson either, at least that I can remember anyways, since my student oil painting days were so long ago and my memory is getting scary these days :o I actually have some Golden fluid acrylic color Quinacridone Crimson kicking around and may just try using it up for a while so see if I like it. I never even thought about lightfastness of Diox purple, figures the prettiest ones will fade - nuts.


Hi nit-wit
Thanks for your thoughts, I was just looking for a nice mixing cool red for my limited pallet and am not trying to make my pictures look like they are bleeding, although I am sure if I was used to using the real thing I would be sad at it's loss too... I am not sure who you mean when you say pigment police, but I know that health concears are a growing concearn for many people. I have put cad yellow light and red light on the supply list for my beginning painting students to purchase and worry about any health effects it can have, especially since I have one student with Downs Syndrom and another with really disabeling dyslexia. They are adults and can listen well, follow instructions, and are not eating the paint like kids might, but I still worry a little. I know that I get paint on my hands regularly... I know that they will too.


Hi Daniel
I was not concearned with Aliz. Crims. permanence, I had not even thought about it - you just cannot get that pigment in acrylics that I know of.



Hi Jamie
Thanks for your thoughts, I do love my Quin Magenta and I can see that if you are mixing with a crimson that has black, orange or green in it, the mixtures could become quite dirty... I will be trying out suggestions to see what works best for me. I like versitilty and simplicity myself.




Hi Einion
I am not sure how small but here are my needs:

I am looking for the most versitile selection of paint colours for my own personal pallet (so I can buy these colours in bulk) as well as what I will be suggesting for my beginner acrylic painting students to purchase. I want to paint with these pigments regularly myself since I will be teaching with them. I am used to having lots of pigments avaliable to choose from so having the limited pallet will take some getting used to... I have gotten Kevin McPherson's most recent book and he suggested the following: titanium white, Cad yello light, cad red light, alizarin crimson, ultramarine blue and phalo green.

I have already done my supply list for the fall semester and I had my students get the above list only with the quin magenta and not alizarin crimson. I am kind of afraid to even suggest alizarin crimson to my students cause with all of the combos avaliable, who knows what they may come to class with....

I will do a search for threads on limited pallets, that is a great suggestion, I never even thought of that.

I must admit that I have never used Quin rose, I will have to try that.

I really love the tri-Art brand of acrylics paints too... I just wish they had better packaging. nuts - it's always something...:wink2:


Many Thanks and Warmest Regards to all, Judith




PS I have made a compact list of the 9 suggested substitutes:

1) PR177 (M. Graham makes and excellent version)

2) PR264 (Liquitex offers this pigment, but is opaque. The transparent version is better if you can find it.)

3) Tri-Art's Permanent Crimson (PR122, PR101)

4) Tri-Art's Burnt Crimson (PR254, PR48).

5) pv19, thalo red rose with some pv23 diox violet added to it.

6) Golden acrylic color Quinacridone Crimson (PR202/PR206) is excellent.

7) 10 parts Quinacridone Violet (PV19) with 12 parts Quinacridone Burnt Orange (PR206)

8) Golden uses a combo of PR122 / PR206 / PG7 (Quin Magenta, Quin Burnt Orange, and Phth Green) for their Alizarin Crimson Hue

9) pyrrole red (not pyrrole red light) is a great red that can mix violets pretty well.

bluespace
10-06-2008, 01:35 AM
In acrylics the alizarin substitute by liquitex is not bad .
In oil,acrylic and watercolor i use genuine alizarin.
Why? OMG ! Aren't you worried about ...about ...what?
Fading? All colors can fade there is no such thing as a painting that lasts for ever.
Some colors just take longer than others to fade that's all.I find the trend of pigment lightfastness snobbery obsessive .We ought to be much more concerned about people and companies that try to take our colors away from us and overzealous government agencies falsely labeling health warnings on our products than whether or not my painting will fade in a hundred or two hundred years .The Michael Wilcox school will of course consider this heresy but too bad for them , I'd rather get my paintings done and have them fade than worry about something that will happen eventually anyways and not paint anything because of avoidance and fear. Where the heck are M.Wilcox's paintings anyway? I can't find any.Hmmmmmm....

Einion
10-06-2008, 01:33 PM
I am not sure how small but here are my needs:

I am looking for the most versitile selection of paint colours for my own personal pallet (so I can buy these colours in bulk) as well as what I will be suggesting for my beginner acrylic painting students to purchase.
Perhaps the commonest smaller palette is the twin-primary palette, which is six paints, not including white, and although it doesn't provide the colour range of another palette of similar size many people find it easy and logical to use. Plus it provides some useful variety in pigment attributes - some colours being opaque, others transparent - which is generally as important in painting as colour itself.

In Tri-Art colours here's what I'd suggest for this palette:
Arylide Yellow Light
Cadmium Yellow Medium
Cadmium Red Light
Quinacridone Magenta or Quinacridone Red (their version of Quin Rose)
Phthalo Blue Green Shade
Ultramarine Blue

Plus Titanium White of course.

Supplement this with just a few of your favourite earths and maybe a green and there's no reason to feel limited by what would be a fairly small palette to many painters - although in practice it usually does, limited doesn't have to mean limiting.

If opacity isn't an issue the other palette of the same size is called a secondary palette, CMY + RGB - cyan, magenta and yellow primaries with well-spaced secondaries between them. This provides the widest colour range possible for six paints but it tends toward the transparent.

I want to paint with these pigments regularly myself since I will be teaching with them. I am used to having lots of pigments avaliable to choose from so having the limited pallet will take some getting used to...
FWIW I'm sure you'll have less trouble than you think. You might find it quite liberating painting with fewer paints! If you think it might help try painting just with three primaries and white for a while.

I have already done my supply list for the fall semester and I had my students get the above list only with the quin magenta and not alizarin crimson. I am kind of afraid to even suggest alizarin crimson to my students cause with all of the combos avaliable, who knows what they may come to class with....
Well although of course it has lots of adherents from a previous generation, or who follow the guidance or teaching of that generation, it is certainly not a must-have colour. So they won't be missing out on something absolutely fundamental (like for example if they'd never use Ultramarine or a Cadmium Red).

I really love the tri-Art brand of acrylics paints too... I just wish they had better packaging. nuts - it's always something...:wink2:
Well they have real paint samples on the tubes, that's more than the majority of makers provide :) What is it about the packaging that you don't like?


In oil,acrylic and watercolor i use genuine alizarin.
Which acrylic brands offer Alizarin Crimson?

All colors can fade there is no such thing as a painting that lasts for ever.
That's not a valid point given that some pigments fade or change colour in mere months and some retain their colour for all intents and purposes indefinitely.

I find the trend of pigment lightfastness snobbery obsessive .
What is it to choose paints that one knows will fade? ;)

It's not any kind of snobbery to prefer pigments with superior lightfastness. Any decent modern palette won't show fading (or any other colour changes) for 100 years of typical indoor lighting or much more, without requiring any compromises. So why not?

Where the heck are M.Wilcox's paintings anyway? I can't find any.Hmmmmmm....
If you're interested in seeing Mr. Wilcox's work then I suggest you contact him directly.

Einion

judithj
10-08-2008, 11:20 PM
Well they have real paint samples on the tubes, that's more than the majority of makers provide :) What is it about the packaging that you don't like?

Einion



Hi Einion

Well, I do like the real paint samples on the tubes, but the problems we have been having in my class is that the lids have been cracking - above the threads and the paints were drying out in the tubes. Thankfully they seem to have sorted out that problem. I see that they have different tops on their tubes of paints now. I have not seen one cracked yet since I started teaching again after the summer break.

Also, they have the 120 ml paints in mini tubs. This is a problem for convenience. You have to have a pallet knife to get the paint out of the bottle and this is more work than just squeezing it out. A small thing - but in the heat of the moment when you are mixing on the fly - it is annoying. My student with Downs Syndroms has had difficulty with this because she is putting her dirty pallet knife in her white paint. I told her not to but it didn't sink in. I will be transfering her 'white' paint to a little squeeze bottle.

My personal solution for this is that I purchase tri-art paints in bulk - and then fill up 4 oz empty and cleaned out plastic bottles origionally used for folk art acrylics -- I have a good supply of these bottles since I have my kids art classes using these paints for lots of fun projects. I like that I can squeeze out the paint and I also like the flip open lid that I do not have to screw shut... which is another thing I'd rather not have to worry about since when I really get going with a painting, I go trance like and forget stuff like lids. If you saw my paint box you might think I get all of my paints from Dollarama - but I get the paint I love along with the convenience I need. :D


Thanks for the suggestions for thoes 2 pallets - I am really curious about giving them a try - I cannot remember using Arylide yellow, although I may very well have it - it sounds familiar. I will have to give my big paint box a dig and see if I have a bottle in there...

A nice thing about having a poor memory is that you get to watch all sort of reruns on TV and it is like watching them for the first time... :o

Warmest Regards, Judith

bluespace
10-16-2008, 12:18 AM
MGraham offers Alizarin Crimson there may be others

Of course it's a valid point because i wasn't talking about colors that fade in weeks or months .Alizarin can last for over 100 years in normal conditions.As can others that are deemed moderately lightfast.You also are ignoring that certain pigments are chosen for reasons other than their supposed lightfastness rating.Working qualities, transparancy,behavior with other pigments drying time etc are also factors to consider.

Patrick1
10-17-2008, 12:01 AM
You often hear as evidence that <insert pigment of questionable lightfastness here> is lightfast enough for artistic purposes: "Look - that painting hanging on the wall is over 100 years old and its colors are doing fine". But unless you have a reference area for direct comparison (like hidden behind the frame), how can you be sure? A painting can have significant fading or color change without it being obvious. For that reason, I'm very leery of such 'evidence'.

Does anybody have any pics to demonstrate the fading of Alizarin Crimson in an actual painting?

Einion
10-17-2008, 07:27 AM
Of course it's a valid point because i wasn't talking about colors that fade in weeks or months .
If you recall, you posted that "All colors can fade", which is simply not correct and diverts attention from the matter at hand.

This thread is in part about a pigment that can do exactly that - Alizarin Crimson can fade in months. Just to be clear, under the same conditions the vast majority of other pigments in common use in artists' paints would not exhibit any change, that's the point.

Alizarin can last for over 100 years in normal conditions.As can others that are deemed moderately lightfast.
Okay, first off I'm not sure that you're saying it is but Alizarin Crimson is not deemed moderately lightfast. PR83 is an ASTM III pigment (lower rated than that in watercolour).

As for it lasting over 100 years in 'normal conditions', it might in the medium and applications you were thinking of but not in a great many others. Some of those other situations are, as mentioned in a previous thread, common uses to which a paint of this colour might be put by a user, i.e. nothing in the least unusual or extreme.

If you restrict yourself to using it in ways where it's likely to hold up better, fair enough. My personal preference is to prefer paints that I can use with confidence at any thickness and in tints of any proportion.

You also are ignoring that certain pigments are chosen for reasons other than their supposed lightfastness rating.Working qualities, transparancy,behavior with other pigments drying time etc are also factors to consider.
I'm not ignoring this any more than you're ignoring the opposite position ;)

We're well aware here that some people do indeed choose to go with factors like colouring and transparency over longevity otherwise we'd never have to discuss whether PR83 is suitable for artistic use.


You often hear as evidence that <insert pigment of questionable lightfastness here> is lightfast enough for artistic purposes: "Look - that painting hanging on the wall is over 100 years old and its colors are doing fine". But unless you have a reference area for direct comparison (like hidden behind the frame), how can you be sure?
Yep: exposed and unexposed madder lake (http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Apr-2008/3842-Crimson_Fade.JPG).

A painting can have significant fading or color change without it being obvious. For that reason, I'm very leery of such 'evidence'.
Right on. Primary yellowing in oil paints is a given, but how many painters don't notice it?

Einion

Patrick1
10-17-2008, 08:54 AM
Yep: exposed and unexposed madder lake (http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Apr-2008/3842-Crimson_Fade.JPG).

Thank you...I'm guessing that is the corner of the painting that was hidden behind the frame, but is there anywhere I can see the entire (or at least a larger) portion of that painting...to get a context of what I'm looking at?

Right on. Primary yellowing in oil paints is a given, but how many painters don't notice it?
Or if it's gotten 'bad' enough, how many will - but will admire the artist for the classical, warm overall color cast they were able to achieve through skillful color useage? :lol:

sidbledsoe
10-18-2008, 02:14 PM
Hi Everyone
Thanks for all of these great answers -
Hi Sid, I have never used Thalo Red Rose and now I want to try it, do they make that for acrylics? I have the Diox Violet and really love that colour! Thanks for this suggestion. red rose is a violet pigment - go figure.
Judith, scratch that advice, I just got a new tube of good pr83 and this mix is not close to it, being too violet. I was matching a cheapo brand of aliz crimson and apparently it is way more violet than the new tube (winsor). This pr83 is much redder and not that far from pr177 (perm Aliz crim) so that is what I am going to use. I got the new pr83 because I want to do some comparison light testing versus other reds, am afraid to really use it in a painting. good luck!

gnu
10-18-2008, 03:41 PM
I have a tube of Brillian Alizarin Crimson, Matisse structure, says it is lightfast...
the mix is PR170 / PR122
Should I throw it out, or does the PR 122 make it an OK mix??
thanks

Paint_Tube
10-19-2008, 12:39 AM
I have a tube of Brillian Alizarin Crimson, Matisse structure, says it is lightfast...
the mix is PR170 / PR122
Should I throw it out, or does the PR 122 make it an OK mix??
thanks

Don't throw it out! It should be fine IMHO; PR170 is a Napthol red pigment and PR122 is Quinacridone magenta. Some artists shun Napthol reds preferring a Quinacridone or Perylene pigment, but most are good for use.

--Jamie

gnu
10-19-2008, 04:00 PM
thanks Jamie :) it is a lovely deep magenta.....

Einion
10-20-2008, 11:10 AM
I have a tube of Brillian Alizarin Crimson, Matisse structure, says it is lightfast...
the mix is PR170 / PR122
Should I throw it out, or does the PR 122 make it an OK mix??

Both of those pigments are generally sound (although not in the highest lightfastness category often).

If you might use it thinly and its stability is a worry add it to a lightfastness test.

Einion

gnu
10-21-2008, 05:29 AM
He he, me use paint thinly??? NAH, ain't going to happen :) :) :)
However, I will reserve it for mixing, thanks :)

JamieWG
04-20-2010, 09:37 AM
For one other suggestion, Golden uses a combo of PR122 / PR206 / PG7 (Quin Magenta, Quin Burnt Orange, and Phth Green) for their Alizarin Crimson Hue in their Golden Open line. I don't like this mixture as much as their regular Quinacridone Crimson, but it's all that's available in the Open line.


Just a heads up that the Quinacridone Crimson will be available in their OPEN line of paints starting in May (along with 39 other new colors)! I love it too.

Jamie

Gigalot
04-20-2010, 11:37 AM
Rose madder root. I'll plant it in a pot and let it grow!:heart:

judithj
04-20-2010, 12:01 PM
Rose madder root. I'll plant it in a pot and let it grow!:heart:


Too cool - best of luck with this!

Warmest Regards, Judith

Einion
04-21-2010, 04:08 AM
About the only thing madder root is useful for is if one wants to experiment with historical vegetable dyes :D

Einion

llawrence
04-26-2010, 01:39 PM
Rose madder root. I'll plant it in a pot and let it grow!:heart: Interesting to discuss madder as a substitute for alizarin crimson... which historically is a substitute for madder! :D

I've been growing madder for some years, and made my first harvest over the winter. I'll be extracting the dye soon and making an oil paint, straight from my garden. I've already done that with weld to make a yellow lake oil paint. How much fun is that? (Answer: lots, for strange folk like me.)

If you're going to grow the stuff (madder), I definitely recommend doing it just the way you mentioned, i.e. in a container. In a garden setting, at least in my climate, the madder plants have been invasive and difficult to control. There's some stuff about that on my blog. Have fun!

llawrence
04-26-2010, 01:51 PM
About the only thing madder root is useful for is if one wants to experiment with historical vegetable dyes :DOr to make madder lake, historically an important artist's pigment.

Einion
04-26-2010, 06:17 PM
I thought it would be obvious what I meant from the discussion in the thread above ^^^ ;)

Einion

llawrence
04-27-2010, 03:26 AM
Now I'm confused.

Anyway, I do recommend rose madder over alizarin crimson. I've been experimenting with it lately in oils (W&N), and it's great to glaze over other colors for shadows, rather than mixing directly with other colors as I've generally done with alizarin. It's nowhere near being the most lightfast in its hue range (anymore), but from what I've read it ages more gracefully than alizarin crimson. (I offer this last with a shaker of salt, since I haven't done my own tests yet - those will happen this year.) And: it sure is a pretty color.

Gigalot
04-27-2010, 05:27 AM
I dyed handkerchief liquor of the root and get a wonderful color. I also have recipe for cooking paint. The method is: should a strained broth to add alum and then carefully add the alkaline. After heating to 80 degrees gradually rolled precipitate lake.:heart:

llawrence
04-27-2010, 12:24 PM
That's basically the way I've done it (no pun), but another school of thought recommends soaking the dye in the alkali first, then adding the alum at the end. I've never tried it that way, but apparently both work; I don't know if the other way yields a different hue or not.

Gigalot
04-27-2010, 04:46 PM
It`s an interesting information!
Some roots also have a different color. One give an orange solution and the other more crimson. I have an orange version:)
Actually, this root contains 2 basic dye - Purpurine (which is fugitive) and Alizarin.

Einion
04-30-2010, 01:47 PM
Actually, this root contains 2 basic dye - Purpurine (which is fugitive) and Alizarin.
...and Alizarin, which is also fugitive!

Einion

Gigalot
04-30-2010, 05:40 PM
:D :D :clap:

Richard Saylor
05-02-2010, 11:09 PM
.....Judith, to answer your original question, I think you'll have to try a number of those Alizarin hues and see which ones you like best. I find some of them to be quite dirty in mixes. Quin magenta is good stuff!.....
Jamie
Good point. One can approximate the hue of alizarin crimson, but that in no way guarantees that it will behave similarly in mixtures. I have become adjusted to using quinacridone rose or magenta for cool reds. Perhaps pigment preferences are more matters of habit rather than necessity.

Evelien1
06-03-2010, 05:24 AM
Hi there,
I agree on Quinacridone Magenta, from Golden acrylics. They have a hue "alizarine crimson" too (maybe it's new?).
The "quinacridone magenta" looked more clean though (better for color mixing or prismatic colors). I think you can get the Alizarine effect with it, if you add just a dash of caput mortuum (that purplish-brown color).

I think a habit is a good reason to cling on to a pigment... But alizarine crimson has a history, it's a historic pigment. Probably this recipe survived with a reason. Bye, Evelien

judithj
06-03-2010, 11:51 AM
I've been using the quinacridone magenta for my cool red in my pallet - works fine for me. I find that I actually use the cad red light more often for reds when I paint - I like the opacacity of it... Just personal I guess.

Interesting to read about growing and making paint - cool