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Panditha(Damian C.)
08-25-2008, 02:43 PM
hey there,

im kind of in a rut im usually a watercolorist and love the photo realism that a watercolor painting gives and the amazment of how people who see them cant belive its a watercolor. I do great usually with pencil and charcoal, but ive always wanted to do a realistic peice with water color i know its easier with oil and acrylics but i really want it to be a watercolor painting, even though people tell me it looks great, beautiful etc. and not to mess it up with w/cs but if i want to add color to it, use pastels or pastel pencils oils or the such.

plus it will be a gift for her parents.

so basically after lightly fixing my very detailed charcoal and pencil drawing of my nanny charge Isabella (the lines are pretty dark and all) i was thinking that maybe I could do a grisalle in goache and use that as an underpainting, this way the values, and form are there and then i could over glaze with watercolors to achive not only the level of realism i am after (photo realism) but also keep the values and the such as oil painters do ?

so bottom line is can you use a grisalle that is done in goache and glaze over it layer after layer in transparent or semi transparent watercolors like oil painters do with oils for the skin tones etc.

I got the idea for overpainting my drawing from Michel George's tutorial on here about underpaintings in the oil painting section. Sorry i cant post a picture of the drawing, but i will when i get back from vacation in sri-lanka as I am not currently using my own computer right now, ill be back on the 31st of august.

please do let me know if there is a possiblity of painting watercolors over a gouache grisallie underpainting. other wise ill have to go with pastels which isnt bad but i REALLY want it to be a watercolor painting.

staystilljason
08-25-2008, 04:32 PM
Certain brands of gouache - M. Graham, W&N, Schmincke - use 'higher-pigment' loads rather than fillers such as chalk, making it more 'watercolorly.'

As they use the same binding medium though different proportions, gouache and watercolour can be freely mixed together.

You should have no problem using watercolor over gouache
:D

painterbear
08-25-2008, 10:31 PM
Damian,
Why don't you do an experiment and paint swatches of gouache on a sheet of watercolor paper, then do washes with transparent watercolor over them to see if you get the effect you are looking for.

However, you should realize that by using gouache as the underlayer, you have already covered the white of the paper which is what gives transparent watecolor its beautiful translucency.

I agree with what Jason just said about gouache and watercolor being compatible, but you do need to keep the issue of transparency and opaqueness in mind.

Some of us use purple as an underpainting. Check out this thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492919) by mustcreate, for example, if it appeals to you, there is a section on Purple Underpaintings in the Learning Demos you might want to look at. (Link in my signature line.)

Sylvia

rgb
08-25-2008, 11:17 PM
You might have a problem with the gouache lifting as you add the watercolor. Do a test.

Panditha(Damian C.)
08-25-2008, 11:41 PM
Damian,
Why don't you do an experiment and paint swatches of gouache on a sheet of watercolor paper, then do washes with transparent watercolor over them to see if you get the effect you are looking for.
will try that however I can be a bit lazy in waiting and wish alot of times to dive in thus why i was wondering before hand because I had read on hand print that w/c can be painted over a silluoette of a painting in black or white (ie the flesh tones etc.) Making it the central peice

However, you realize that by using gouache as the underlayer, you have already covered the white of the paper which is what gives transparent watecolor its beautiful look.
yeah i know that, the problem is i wouldnt know which areas to mask off soo thats a problem.

I agree with what Jason just said about gouache and watercolor being compatible, but you do need to keep the issue of transparency and opaqueness in mind. true thus why i planned on making it not TOO opaque but enough to cover the drawing itself, and be able to paint over with the transparent glazes as well as with some opaque watercolors as well (ie cadmiums )

Some of us use purple as an underpainting. Check out this thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492919) by mustcreate, for example, if it appeals to you, there is a section on Purple Underpaintings in the Learning Demos you might want to look at. (Link in my signature line.)

Sylvia

yeah thats a great option which i know of however my drawing is too dark and will show up much more even with several glazes.


thanks for the conformation all :) saved me lots.


the problem of lifting really i can over comewith a spray of lac water varnish from natural pigments. works quite well in fixing watercolor layers! just dont use it so much other wise the washes will bead up on you!

Laura D
08-26-2008, 03:10 PM
I was going to suggest a sealant and mention the limitation of layers that can go over the top. Workable fixative has been the best for this IMHO. I've been able to get 3 glazed layers before losing absorption.

Neeman
08-27-2008, 03:07 AM
I use Gouache over watercolor all the time.
not the other way round.
I presume a 'fat over lean' so I am not sure watercolor on goauche will work well.
If the goauche is very thin then you are using it as a watercolor.
But if you are using it fat, then I see the problem of mud, like pthalos over cads.
You might be able to do very light washes over fat goauche.

atelier_m
08-27-2008, 04:03 AM
Gouache is known for ease of re-activation, so you might have trouble with watercolor lifting the gouache grisaille. The fixative sounds like a good idea, or if you don't already own gouache, try an acrylic gouache ... there are several brands out there. They work about like traditional gouache and dry to a matte finish, but they do not re-activate.

Turner Acryl Gouache is an example. The literature says the colors are quick drying, water-reducible but water resistant when dry. They can be applied in multiple layers with no bleeding or streaking, have a velvet like matte finish with brilliant color hue and adhere to virtually any substance.

http://www.aswexpress.com/discount-art-supplies/online/3253/art-supplies/3

Mary ... let us know how it turns out!