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View Full Version : Golden Open, possible deal breaker for some.


taylorh
07-13-2008, 05:52 PM
I've been working with the new golden open acrylics for 15 to 20 hours now and wanted to put a few things out there that might discourage purchasing if they knew about it. First is tinting strength, its pretty weak compared to fast drying acrylics. The only color that i've used (i bought 10 tubes) that seems to have good tinting strength is the white. Secondly painting in thin layers is one of the requirements for using the paint without excessive dry times. This would seem easy enough to do at first but when mixing on the canvas like i'm used to doing it becomes quite the challenge. I enjoy the wet time but i'm not currently sold on using this acrylic paint as my primary but I could see it being useful for outside painting, creating skies or water or even portraits. With the restriction that you can't layer ontop of it for a long time with fast drying paint though you'd have to dedicate space on your canvas on it just for this stuff. It also seems extremely glossy if that turns anyone on or off. Just thought I'd throw this information out there incase anyone was wondering. I found the dry to the touch feeling to form in about 9 hours in a air conditioned home and outside your looking at about 2 hours.

~~Kathleen
07-13-2008, 06:46 PM
It stands to reason, that if a product is slow drying (eg, oils/Golden acrylic open)) that layering would not be an option.
We have a poster here that has been showing us his experimental (Testing this new paint formula for Golden) and later regular works using this product.
He has at all times been honest about the quality of this paint, both indoors and out.
The photographs that he has posted of both WIPs & finished projects seem to show wonderful colour.
It would be helpful if you posted photos of the problems you have encountered.

As to the glossiness, I find that using any of the mediums that Golden produces with my Acrylics does produce a higher gloss than the regular paints.
It is something that I choose to live with.
~~Kathleen

cat1lady
07-13-2008, 08:20 PM
That's funny about the gloss because mine all dried matt.
Yesterday I bought cadmium yellow, ultramarine blue, pyrrole red, veridian and titanium white. I was playing around with what colors I could make.
I do agree with the tinting strength, I was trying to make black with the red, blue and green and only made a dark grey.
The tubes list the gloss, tinting and opacity.
The blue, green and yellow and green all say low tinting. I didn't think of checking the colors prior to purchasing. I wonder if there are any, other than white, that are high tinting.

JamieWG
07-13-2008, 08:53 PM
Mine all dry matte---no glossiness at all. I don't know how you got yours to dry glossy. Did you use the mediums to do that?

They are somewhat lower tinting strength than the Golden heavy bodied paints. This is because the more pigment was added, the faster the paints dried. A happy medium needed to be found between pigment strength and drying time. Increasing the pigment load of the titanium white gives additional opacity to other colors mixed with the white. This resolves a lot of the pigment load issues, since we really need the opacity in the lights. Darks are generally worked more transparently. (You will probably notice that the titanium white dries a little faster than the other colors because of its increased pigment load.)

Those who like the very fast-drying quality of traditional acrylics, and have adapted their technique to that characteristic, may not have an easy time adjusting to the slow drying time of the OPEN paints. This is why Golden still has all those other lines of quick-drying acrylics! ;) On the other hand, those with oil painting, gouache or watercolor backgrounds will find that many of the tools that work with those mediums can be used with the OPEN paints, as well as having many of the attributes of acrylics.

Jamie

JamieWG
07-13-2008, 09:03 PM
....Yesterday I bought cadmium yellow, ultramarine blue, pyrrole red, veridian and titanium white. .....I do agree with the tinting strength, I was trying to make black with the red, blue and green and only made a dark grey.

That is not because of the tinting strength; it's because there is white in their Viridian hue! I just checked the pigment chart:
http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/color/open/openpigchart.php

Whenever you use a "hue" or a color that is from a mix, it's always a good idea to check the components of the mix. I've also had trouble mixing colors from hues and mixes because they sometimes contain "surprises"!

Jamie

taylorh
07-13-2008, 10:31 PM
Mine all dry matte---no glossiness at all. I don't know how you got yours to dry glossy. Did you use the mediums to do that?

Jamie

I did spray my paints with the open thinner and occasionally added some if my paint was drying up but not too much really. It does seem heavily reflective though so maybe i did add a bit much.

I also hate hues but there were less choices for pure pigments than usual with these paints. I'm starting to think i was much more adapted to fast drying acrylics than I thought I would be. I missed instant glazing and building up of color and texture though many layers.

BeeCeeEss
07-13-2008, 10:44 PM
Jamie is right about this new Golden Open probably having great appeal to oil painters, gouache or watercolor painters.

As an oil painter, I'm already well accustomed to working wet-into-wet all over my canvas, doing all the soft blending I want, then setting a painting aside at least overnight until it dried enough to continue on. It's as natural as can be for the style of painting I prefer to do.

Making the change many years ago from oil paints to acrylics was hugely frustrating for me, as I imagine it is to many other oil painters. Over the years, I have developed my own working methods with the acrylics, but I always long for the "good old days" when I was working only in oils. I would love to be able to work with acrylics more as I do with oil paints but not have to put up with all the smells of the oils and their solvents and their effects on my allergies. I don't like constantly worrying about my acrylics drying out on my palette or on my brushes while I'd rather be able to relax and concentrate on the painting process. These new Golden Open paints sound like a dream come true for folks like myself.

However, they would seem to be quite unsuited for glazing techniques where rapid drying of layers is a must. We should each consider carefully what our own painting styles and needs are before we commit to buying an expensive new set of paints.

The issue of the tinting strength is another matter. I guess we'll all have to make up our own minds about whether or not we're getting what we want from these new paints.

All in all, I have to congratulate the Golden company for their latest development. I'm eager to try them.

Beverly

taylorh
07-13-2008, 10:57 PM
I could see how oil painters would love this new paint. It feels and acts much like oils except for the lower tint strength and faster drying time that some oil painters would love. I'll probably work with these paints a bit longer and if I don't like them, I'll probably just sell them off at the Artists Marketplace Forum.

JamieWG
07-14-2008, 09:06 AM
I did spray my paints with the open thinner and occasionally added some if my paint was drying up but not too much really. It does seem heavily reflective though so maybe i did add a bit much.

I also hate hues but there were less choices for pure pigments than usual with these paints. I'm starting to think i was much more adapted to fast drying acrylics than I thought I would be. I missed instant glazing and building up of color and texture though many layers.

*nodding* I too found that the thinner added a sheen, though much/most of it disappears a day or so later when it totally dries. I spray just with water when I need to revive the paint on the palette, and that works great. My own personal preference is not to use the mediums and thinner. I find the paints don't need further dilution. Also, I've found that the pigment load increases a lot as the paints sit out on the palette and lose some moisture. I can use that to my advantage in the later stages of a painting for lights and highlights. ;)

I totally understand your hatred of hues! I confess though, that I have recently fallen in love with the Jenkins Green. It was initially a custom color that they made for an artist with that name, and then it became a permanent part of their lineup. I can understand why that customer wanted that color! It's a great dark, dark green for landscape work.

With regard to the pigment load, this was a huge issue for me in the initial formulations of the paint. I can tell you that the company worked really hard since then to load up the paint as much as possible without sacrificing too much drying time. Once they added more pigment to the paint, and came out with the stronger, more opaque colors, I was a very happy camper. I stick mostly with the colors that are stronger to begin with, and find they deliver enough for me. The Cadmium Yellow Primrose and Cadmium Yellow Medium work very well. When I switch to the weaker Hansa Yellow, I am disappointed. For those who are pigment load junkies like me (and apparently you!), I'd advise sticking to those stronger colors like the cadmiums. I find Pyrrole red also delivers on strength and swings warm and cool very well. Ultramarine Blue is a very important color for me, and they did a great job of loading that one up as much as they could. The Phthalos are also strong, as you'd expect.

One thing you can do, when you need the painting to tack up faster, is to take a hair dryer to it for a minute or two. Of course, that won't work when out plein air painting, but outside in the warm sun it generally dries fast enough. I usually just go work on a different part of the painting for awhile, and then go back to the area that needed to tack up a bit.

Jamie

dbclemons
07-14-2008, 11:37 AM
I'm been thinking about the "archival" issue of these paints since first hearing about them. It's a topic that is often raised in regards to new formulations of an established medium. Alkyds and water-miscible oils get flack from traditional oil painters for "messing with a good thing." Even the current acrylics on the market are still only a generation or two old, and now with these and the Interactives it begs the question of how the mediums will change as time passes, or how best to use them for that point. I'm sure Golden has done as much testing on this as can be made, and it's likely that the alterations won't impact the adhesion of the medium all that much. Nontheless, the proof is with time actually passing and how much these paints are used.

I've personally been able to adapt my technique in using acrylics so that the drying speed is not an issue, it's more an advantage actually. As such, I don't see myself getting the Open paints anytime soon.

George Servais
07-14-2008, 02:49 PM
I have to agree with Davis on this one. My reasons for not wanting to use Open acrylics can be found in Golden's Technical Specs page. If I wanted those characteristics I would be painting with oils. The advantage of acrylics is their drying time. Sometimes I need a hair dryer to speed the drying process if I'm really on a roll. The problem with acrylics fast drying time is not with the acrylics it may be in techniques used. Oil techniques rarely work with acrylics, many adjustments need to be made, and as far as Plein Aire goes try saving the final details for the studio and just keep misting lightly and make sure your pallet is shaded.

JamieWG
07-14-2008, 03:55 PM
Hi David and George. If oils could do everything that these paints can do, I'd still be painting with oils. I can only say that for me, they have opened up a whole new world after many, many years of oil painting and using other mediums, offering me capabilities of many different mediums all rolled up into one, with water clean-up no less. I think they're not for everybody, and it takes time working with them to explore their capabilities, but they do work great for me. My oils and OPEN paintings are in the galleries side by side, and buyers are preferring the paintings done with OPEN. That tells me a lot about how successful they are in bringing across what I want to say in my paintings.

I'm not worried about the archival issues with these paints. I know the folks up at Golden do their homework, and the company is known for its testing of materials. Oils have serious problems staying intact over time, even when under museum conditions and with an artist following the best-known archival practices. (Not that most oil painters do that either!) That's how conservators stay in business. I think that these acrylics will likely outlast my oils in the long run. Heck, they can't even destroy plastics in landfills. ;)

Jamie

JamieWG
07-14-2008, 04:03 PM
Oil techniques rarely work with acrylics

They do now! ;)

Jamie

dbclemons
07-15-2008, 10:47 AM
It's very likely that the archival issue is a moot point, as I was already saying, I just thinking out loud. It's certainly likely that acrylics as they have been will outlast oil paint in the long run, but there have been problems with them in some cases over the last few years. The chemistry of their manufacture has constantly been tweaked, whereas oils have more or less stayed the same and even had it's tradition slavishly guarded by some.

I think the "deal breaker" for me regarding Open, is why get something new that offers me something I can already do, especially if any of their features are less than ideal, or forces me to adapt yet again to a new process? I applaud Golden and Interactive for what they've done, but I'm not ready to buy into it yet.

Tiasa
07-15-2008, 08:18 PM
Increasing the pigment load of the titanium white gives additional opacity to other colors mixed with the white. This resolves a lot of the pigment load issues, since we really need the opacity in the lights. Darks are generally worked more transparently.Jamie

This is a really good point that I hadn't thought of. It also makes me wonder if the opaque OPEN colors are lighter overall because they are mixed with a high-pigment load white.

I haven't been able to get my hands on these paints yet, but what everyone is saying seems to match the tech specs that I read. I still plan to buy 4-6 basic mixing colors to use as a supplement to the regular fast-drying paints I love so much. I expect the OPEN will help me finish off smooth blending in some areas, and they will be used last. Right now I find it difficult to blend large areas if I am doing a larger painting (18 x 24 or larger).

I have read complaints before about how awful paints are that are transparent and have a low pigment load. However, I couldn't paint without some of those low-pigment / transparent paints. I have used them to do a screen door in sunlight, and another time to do woodgrain in a ray of sunshine on a table. An opaque paint would not have given the real feel of sunshine that I got with the transparents.

It also seems to me that if I use them on top of my fast-drying acrylics to blend something that really needs to be soft and smooth, the transparency would be a plus. I think you get richer, more complex color if some of the prior paint layers show through. To me, they sounded perfect for glazing in thin layers--you just won't be doing it quickly.

I must admit that after I read the tech specs, I had to smile. There have been so many posts about "which is better--oil or acrylic," and it sounded like I was now going take some lessons from the oil painters--put the fast drying stuff on the bottom, work on multiple paintings at once. :lol:

eliza ollin
07-16-2008, 12:11 AM
With regard to the pigment load, this was a huge issue for me in the initial formulations of the paint. I can tell you that the company worked really hard since then to load up the paint as much as possible without sacrificing too much drying time. Once they added more pigment to the paint, and came out with the stronger, more opaque colors, I was a very happy camper. I stick mostly with the colors that are stronger to begin with, and find they deliver enough for me. The Cadmium Yellow Primrose and Cadmium Yellow Medium work very well. When I switch to the weaker Hansa Yellow, I am disappointed. For those who are pigment load junkies like me (and apparently you!), I'd advise sticking to those stronger colors like the cadmiums. I find Pyrrole red also delivers on strength and swings warm and cool very well. Ultramarine Blue is a very important color for me, and they did a great job of loading that one up as much as they could. The Phthalos are also strong, as you'd expect.
Jamie

Jaime, thank you so much for speaking on this! I tried out my little set last night, and hadn't yet named my frustration, transparency was definately a big part of it! I've been experimenting with CYM primaries, so that's what I bought, along with white and black. Yeah, that Hansa yellow was way too transparent for what I wanted to do, so were the C and M. I'll have to go back and get some opaques too...Tiasa's right, too, sometimes that transparency is just what you want. But not always...(Oh, I think I'll try some opaque medium, see what that does before I splurge any more...)

I did *really* enjoy getting to soften my edges, though, and I didn't cover the pallette at all, just went back and painted with what was left, 24 hours later!--that is a beautiful thing! My paint skinning over is definately one of my few peeves with Acrylics...(although Liquitex's new Palette Wetting Spray is great for preventing that)

I am used to glazing tons of fast layers, so this is going to be a learning curve, but I think I'm going to enjoy it...

and as far as why bother when you can do this stuff with oil, I *love* water clean up, not to mention that I can just plug some new paints into my old set, without having to invest in a whole new non-compatible system! Acrylics are already incredibly versatile, this is just over the top--thank you Golden!!!

JamieWG
07-16-2008, 03:20 PM
This is a really good point that I hadn't thought of. It also makes me wonder if the opaque OPEN colors are lighter overall because they are mixed with a high-pigment load white.

Tiasa, there seems to be a misunderstanding. I apologize for not being clearer. No, most of the OPEN colors are pure pigments and not mixes. You can check the pigment chart on the Golden site. If you want opaque colors, you need to choose strong, opaque pigments like cadmiums. I find the cadmium yellow does the job just fine. Those are not in the trial sets because of issues that arose with the mandatory cautionary labeling for those cadmium pigments on the very small tubes. A transparent red oxide will always be transparent. That is the nature of the pigment. The same is true of the phthalos, quinacridone colors, dioxazine violet, etc. If you're using one of those transparent colors and add titanium white to it, the titanium will increase the opacity as well as the value. I generally like transparent darks and opaque lights; it's just the way I personally like to paint.

Jamie

Tiasa
07-16-2008, 07:55 PM
Tiasa, there seems to be a misunderstanding. I apologize for not being clearer. No, most of the OPEN colors are pure pigments and not mixes. I generally like transparent darks and opaque lights; it's just the way I personally like to paint. Jamie

Jaimie, I am looking forward to trying these paints myself. That is probably the best way to find out what they are about. I am sure the transparency will not be an issue for me since I use both opaque and transparent paints. I, too, like transparent darks and opaque lights, and your statement remined me how important that is.

Snail
01-27-2010, 12:00 AM
With regard to the pigment load, this was a huge issue for me in the initial formulations of the paint. I can tell you that the company worked really hard since then to load up the paint as much as possible without sacrificing too much drying time. Once they added more pigment to the paint, and came out with the stronger, more opaque colors, I was a very happy camper. I stick mostly with the colors that are stronger to begin with, and find they deliver enough for me. The Cadmium Yellow Primrose and Cadmium Yellow Medium work very well. When I switch to the weaker Hansa Yellow, I am disappointed. For those who are pigment load junkies like me (and apparently you!), I'd advise sticking to those stronger colors like the cadmiums. I find Pyrrole red also delivers on strength and swings warm and cool very well. Ultramarine Blue is a very important color for me, and they did a great job of loading that one up as much as they could. The Phthalos are also strong, as you'd expect.

Jamie

Jamie, thank you so much for this information. I've started using OPEN and am enjoying them quite a lot, but I have indeed struggled with Hansa Yellow. I'll try the Cadmium Yellows. Apart from the ones you mentioned, what other OPEN colors would you recommend for strength?

Einion
01-28-2010, 10:37 AM
This thread is from 2008 Snail, you might want to send a PM to Jamie.

Einion

JamieWG
02-06-2010, 10:27 AM
Jamie, thank you so much for this information. I've started using OPEN and am enjoying them quite a lot, but I have indeed struggled with Hansa Yellow. I'll try the Cadmium Yellows. Apart from the ones you mentioned, what other OPEN colors would you recommend for strength?

My apologies for taking so long to see this post! What colors are usually on your palette with traditional oils or acrylics?

Jamie

Tiasa
02-07-2010, 11:51 PM
The following Golden Open colors are opaque:

Red Oxide
Chromium Oxide Green
Naples Yellow Hue
Titan Buff
Burnt Umber
Paynes Gray
Carbon Black
Titanium White

The Naples Yellow Hue is one of the most used colors on my palette. Although the Ultramarine Blue is supposed to be transparent, it works more like an opaque when mixed with the paints above.

texana6
02-08-2010, 12:17 AM
taylorh ... you might like the Chroma Interactives better because you can choose when you want the paint to dry slow (use the slo-dry medium and/or mist frequently) or when you want it to dry fast so that you can do glazing (use the fast medium fixer). What I find is that I do both depending on my need at each particular stage of the painting. Anyone interested in trying the Interactives should view the extensive information and videos on the Chroma site first. And be forewarned that if you mix non-Interactive acrylics with them you will lose their Interactive qualities. I hope to use them for some plein air work this spring because it is clear that when it is time to go I can have a dry canvas within 15 minutes yet reopen the surface in the studio. In short, I LOVE them. BTW, they have ample pigment load, comparable or greater than Liquitex.

Snail
02-08-2010, 01:13 AM
Thanks for the information. I'm going to try the Naples Yellow. I did pick up a tube of Yellow Ochre which has proven very helpful, too.

Mixing in the yellow ochre with the Hansa yellow seems to create more usable yellows for me that don't get lost the way Hansa yellow on its own was doing.

I'm just getting started, so it's not a matter of my trying to find OPEN paints that match regular acrylics. I've actually started (gasp!) on OPEN. Although I do have some Heavy Body's to mix in, too. I'm trying to paint some portraits with OPEN so I'm really enjoying their blendability and longer open time.

Thanks again!

--

Edit: Ooops! Didn't realize I'd resurrected a two year-old thread.... My apologies! Put it down to my being a complete newbie here. Thanks for your patience, for this great site, from which I've already learned loads. :o