View Full Version : Ventilation
07-11-2002, 11:40 PM
I need to install a ventilation system of some kind over my work area. Is a range hood the best thing to use? Is there anything in particular I should look for when buying a hood? Is there an optimal distance from the work surface that a hood should be installed?
TIA! I really appreciate the help.
07-12-2002, 12:10 AM
Hi Mary - Gosh, I am so embarassed to say this after the fuss I've made lately, but you might want to search the ISGB archives (can anyone even BELIEVE I had the nerve to say that after my other posts today...geez...) There really is a lot of info in there on it. I know a lot of folks do use the range hoods, and that's what I am planning on using when I set up my new "studio" room. But for now I've got the old fan in the window setup. That is working fine, but it really works best if you are directly facing the window with nothing blocking the path between the torch and the window.
If you ever want to "check" your ventilation's effectiveness, the "incense" test is a good indicator. Turn on the ventilation, and light a stick of incense and hold it a few inches below the head of the torch. Watch and see where the smoke goes. That will give you an idea if it's working reasonably well or not. I did that and was surprised to find out that my kiln was blocking the "path" from torch to window, though it wasn't really directly inbetween the two.
If I tried to give you anymore info, my ignorance would become very apparent, as I've know exhausted my knowledge of ventilation. (Hey, that was funny! "Exhausted" - "Ventilation", get it??? Sigh...)
B2 :o (I can't believe I even said that...)
FYI - path to ISGB is www.isgb.org. Go to the "old" forum and then to "archives" and the search on the word "ventilation".
B2, That's exactly what I was going to suggest to Mary, haha.
I was researching ventilation and there are some great and very technical threads in the ISGB archives. Mary, I'm going to forward two e-mails which I saved on the subject. I still need ventilation in my dungeon.
So, we're going to welcome each other and then send them away?? Just teasing, just teasing. I too was sending Mary elsewhere.
Mary we gotcha. :cat:
07-12-2002, 09:12 AM
Mary check here and look at my set-up. if you want more info. email me.
07-12-2002, 09:48 AM
A friend helped me out with all this a while back but I don't want to mention any names because this person is so busy right now. I'm no expert, but here's goes
You want to get a fan that is as close to 400 CFM (cubic feet per minute).
Grainger.com sells a really good vent hood for around $200. It's a
325 CFM unit, and one of my students had her husband suspend it from the ceiling with chains. This way it's directly over the work area, but behind by a bit. You need to check the direction of the flame, cause it will push the bad air a bit. You can hang a metal flashing from the bottom of the housing. I got mine at Home Depot .. a roll of 24" x 10'. Then I duct taped the flashing to the side and back of the vent hood. This redirects the bad air from flowing past the exhaust fan.
If life slows down I'm going to put more pages on my site about this because a picture says a thousand words. But right now it's crazy, man!
07-12-2002, 11:14 AM
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far ...
B2, I can understand your reluctance to "send me to the archives." When I first found ISGB (just a few short weeks ago), after reading a few posts, esp. from newbies like me, I realized a lot of people were being referred to the archives for answers. I've been in the archives and there is a lot of helpful info. there, IF you have time to wade through a ton of posts. I can really understand why it gets a little 'old' to keep answering the same questions ... so one thing I'd really love to see somewhere (on WC or on ISGB or somewhere else) is an area for basic information, such as on ventilation, set-up, etc. I had (still have) lots and lots of questions and yet felt like I couldn't ask on ISGB ... yet also I'm so limited on time that I was getting frustrated trying to find answers in the archives. So anyway .... long way of saying that I really appreciate all the more experienced people taking their time to help ... it means a lot to us newbies :p
I'll give the incense a try, good idea! (It will be fun to buy incense again ... takes me right back to high school and my beaded curtain and black light!) I didn't realize that a fan in a window needs to be directly in front of the torch. I put it in another window because I was worried that it would interfere with the flame if it was directly in front of it. I'm set up in the garage right now and do face a window (but am moving to the basement, that's why all the questions). I'll move the fan today and try the incense check. Thanks again!
Betty, got your emails -- thanks much :D I'd love to share any other info either of us finds ....
Richard, I looked at your setup and I need to look again and then I might e-mail you with questions -- thank you for your help!!
Hi Mari! I love the way you spell your name. I was wondering about the "draw" of the range hood ... thanks for answering that question. I'll have to check out Grainger. I was on Home Depot's site last night and none of the hoods list the CFM. I'm confused about the flashing .... does it come all the way down to your bench? A photo would be very helpful, if you get a chance!
07-12-2002, 12:10 PM
here is a link to 'rebeads' ventilation page on their website. some very good info here...
they used to have a picture of their setup, but it doesn't look like it's there anymore :( . instead of a range hood they have a much more 'torch specific' exhaust system. they used 6" flexible metal ducting ( clothes dryer ventilation stuff) between a fan in the ceiling and an 8" opening (i used a fitting for converting from an 8" (wood) stove pipe to 6" stove pipe) just above and behind the torch flame. it sounds complicated, but it's very simple and not expensive. since it is so specific to exhausting the torch flame, it's very effective. :clap:
anyway! if you're interested in knowing more, e-mail me and i'll send a pic when i get home from summer school next week!
07-12-2002, 06:13 PM
I am starting this tread about "Ventilation" so anyone that is looking for information they will have somewhere to look. I'd like everyone to post a picture or pictures of their ventilation system and tell us about it.
Each and every ventilation system is going to be different. it will be based on what that Glass artist is working with.
I trust we will get a great deal in input from flamers out there that have what they feel is the right ventilation system for them.
I will be posting pictures of my system and tell you just what I have and why.
07-12-2002, 07:00 PM
Here is a picture of my ventilation system. I bought a heavy duty range hood from Home Depot that I believe this one is 250 or 300 cfm. It has flexible pipe that vents out the window. I have a window in the other room open at all times when I use the torch and also a fan behind me.
The hood also has a light in it and I have a halogen light bulb which is great for lighting my work area.
Here is a picture of my ventilation system:
07-12-2002, 07:44 PM
This is the ventilation system we just installed in my new studio this spring. It is normally used for boosting more air through the duct in a home heating system. It moves 580 CFM, vents out the side wall of the building and is QUIET!
I have a smaller version on the opposite side of the room, behind where I work for fresh air intake. So far this system is really working good for me. The opposite side of my bead bench, is where I do my silversmithing work, and it helps vent that area also.
The first photo is of the inside of the system. I will post again with the "finshed" photo.
07-12-2002, 07:51 PM
Here is how my system looks now that it is finished! We just gutted out an old hog farrowing shed on our farm to turn into my glass studio. I did a photo diary of the work, and have it on my web site. It was a lot of hard work, but after working in it for over a month now, I just LOVE it! So nice to have room to work!:D
07-12-2002, 07:54 PM
sheesh....forgot to add the photo... LOL sorry about that!
07-12-2002, 08:28 PM
Oh I like all those fancy ventalation systems. But because of me not wanting anything permanant in this house for for beads, (thinkng about upgrading this ole house soon). I have choosen the $10 method.
Lowes has $10 thin boxfans in FL anyways. And that is all I did. Shove a box fan on my window sill. I open the door to the kitchen and suck the AC from there. The doorway is on my back, the fan is in front/side. I have it reiforced with a little rope and hooks so the vibration doesn't jiggle it off.
2 pics, first you can see where my propane hose goes out the screen, complete with camoflodge duct tape ( ya know) to seal up the screen (bugs ya know). My little hula babe shakes to wish me happy beading everynight.
2nd pic shows where my MM torch (Burna Thingshot)<---It's her name, really!
Holy Lived-in Studio Batman!
07-12-2002, 11:51 PM
Hi MarySarah -
there's another alternative to a range hood setup. My hubby took a "large room size" air cleaner (one we used to use in the Living room), hung it directly over my workbench.
He attached (well - duct taped LOL) some hvac pipe reducer and tubing to the top of the unit where the airflow comes out. He ran enough tubing to reach the window on the other side of the basement.
That baby pulls some air! After I light the torch I start the thing and the flame actually tips upwards due to the air flow.
Hard to visualize I know - so I just took some pics for you.
First - pic of workbench with air cleaner overhead (sorry for quality of pics - don't know how to use photo editing software for the best results).
Then in next post I took a pic of the air cleaner itself.
Best regards & hope this helps,
07-12-2002, 11:52 PM
Close up shot of air cleaner & ductwork.
07-13-2002, 02:34 AM
Here is a picture of my monster that my husband built me. We got everything at home depot - a 1200 CFM attic fan that we mounted on a board that is cut to the size of the window. When I want to use the system, I lift the blinds, slide open the window and lift the board into the slots where the window slides. The hose is flexible dryer hose and the hood was constructed of sheet metal and rivets. The whole thing is hung from eye bolts in the ceiling. Would you believe that the reducer (green cone shape where the hose connects) is actually a modified X-mas tree stand. There is even a small hole cut in the board where the propane hose exits to the outside. The hood has nice baffles that corral the torch fumes and send them in the right direction. Good luck finding something that is safe and suitable for you!
07-13-2002, 08:39 AM
My furnace man tells me if I want to exhaust more than just fumes from torch, like glass dust and enamels, I need a 500-700 cfm exhaust system.
I'm still waiting. He built me a really nice range hood box but put in a small cfm fan. I am not paying until I have what I need! He tells me that then puts in a 70 cfm exhaust fan!! The nerve!!!
www.suncoastbeads.com (may have trouble getting pics on this site if you use AOL for some reason)
07-13-2002, 10:41 AM
Hi! Well, I can finally get my first post out of the way and add something I hope is useful.
I was having the same questions you did and tried many things. I tried the fan in the window but soon found it worked tooooo good and it caused my flame to curve towards the window! So gave up on that. I then bought a range hood, which I mounted about 3 feet above the top of my torch. It worked really great...unfortunately, it worked toooo good too!. All the hot gases, of course, flow upwards, being hot....well, it fried the motor! Ok, undaunted by all this, I went out and started searching for info on ventilation. Lo and behold, the "old" Rebeads site had excactly the information I needed! They showed pictures, gave part names and numbers, the works! Wow!
I was not able to purchase the items from the vendors they listed, but a little judicious searching again, I found sites on the internet where I was able to purchase the same blower motor and finally, the same speed control! With flexible ducting and other parts from the local hardware giants, I was able to make a very good ventilation system. I actually just left the range hood in place, removed the motor and light from it and attached the flex duct to the top and the blower motor to a board in the window where the fan used to be. By pulling from the window instead of pushing from the top of the hood, it allows the gases to cool enough that there is no heat problems. Works like a charm!
Anyway, now that Rebeads has split into 2 sites, I found the information at the following url: http://www.aspenhotglass.com/Ventilation.htm
Hope this helps...it sure made my beading more enjoyable, and safer.
07-13-2002, 10:49 AM
Welcome to WC George:clap:
Thank you very much for the information and link:cool:
07-13-2002, 10:56 AM
hi george, and welcome to WC! :clap:
wow, you're the first person i've ever met who also has the 'Rebeads' setup! i also saw it on their website and knew it was for me... i will always be extremely thankful to theresa and bill for having the insight to post all of their info about ventilation on their website way back when not many other people were even talking about it.
see ya around, and, happy torching!
07-13-2002, 12:34 PM
Welcome George. Thank you so much for posting the 'rebeads' information. Great!
I appreciate it...a lot
07-13-2002, 05:02 PM
Welcome to WC! Hope to see bead pics from you soon! :clap:
07-14-2002, 11:19 PM
THANK YOU to everyone who has posted info about their ventilation system and to Richard, for making the ventilation thread a part of the invaluable 101 series!
I have read all the posts and looked at all the systems and I'm still confused about what to get.
George, if I'm understanding the Rebeads info correctly, your fan pulls 265 CFMs?
Paulette, your furnace man says 500 - 700 CFM is needed (especially for dust/enamels) and Mari mentioned getting as close to 400 CFM as possible.
My contractor can get a hood that draws 375 CFM but I want to be sure that I'm doing the right thing before I do it, so I don't have to redo it!
Does anyone have advice on the distance above the work area to have the bottom of whatever ventilation system I end up going with (so I don't burn it, like what happened to George!) and should it be directly over the torch or a little further back or .... ??
Thanks again for any help ... I want to get my contractor moving on this starting tomorrow (Monday) and I'm still feeling clueless about what is enough draw and exactly where to put the hood/air cleaner/air booster or whatever I go with.
07-14-2002, 11:40 PM
Mary, I found a link on the ISGB archives about ventilation which follows:
There is some good information there, which may be of help by Vince Henley who is very knowledgable on the subject.
What is the square footage of your studio space? That seems to be an important factor in determining the necessary CFM's.
07-16-2002, 01:14 AM
Here's a picture of my workstation set up.
I've talked to a few other blowers and have worked in a few different ventilation set ups and this one is by far the best for me. Sidewalls make the biggest difference! really!!! The fan i'm currently using is an industrial shop fan, hampton bay to be exact. I picked it up at the home depot for around $40. There are better and more effencient fans out there!
08-31-2002, 11:21 PM
Unfortunately, the aspen link doesn't work, at least it doesn't for me.
Anyone use the big blue blower? If so, how noisy is it?
KellyK, still scavenging...
09-01-2002, 12:16 AM
Lori, mine is like yours but...I have a fan that fits the window pretty close...it is intended to go into the old wooden sash windows that rise ...and you can pull an extension over to make it fit... I have that vertically in my window so that I can close the window to seal off the area of exhaust. You might think about that because if air can come in from outside...then some of the air you are circulating is coming back in from outside. It wont be as difficult as it seems...you might be able to make a "frame" out of foamcore to fit the space and then you will get greater exhaust from it. ......anyway that was sort of what I did ;-)
09-02-2002, 01:55 AM
Here's my workspace. It's 512ft^3. The fan draws 2170 CFM so it changes the air about twice per minute. I would still like more, but it'll have to do for now.
09-02-2002, 08:33 AM
I, too,am working on my ventilation system. I went to aspenhotglass's website and looked at his system. I ordered the blower but didn't see a variable control switch to work with this blower. I emailed Bill from aspenhotglass/Rebeads for specifics, he emailed me back with the info. I asked why he used a variable switch, he said during the winter he can turn it dow so it doesn't draw tooo much heat out and crank it up during the summer when it's hot. He's used this system for 5 years he told me. I also just went to HD and found an airconditioner ceiling supply and return to use for my hood. It measures 23-3/4" x 23-3/4". It's 4" deep, I'm taking off the removable face. I emailed aspenhotglass to see if he thinks it might work, he's looking for a different hood, instead of the 8" reducer he has. Will let you know how it works, For everyone else that has his system, what do you think?
09-02-2002, 10:02 AM
Is it possible to rig a soft reducer onto this to vent it thru a 4" vent?
BTW, wouldn't a 2170 CFM suck the wallpaper off the walls? What would it do to powders one tries to use? Yikes!
09-02-2002, 10:52 AM
I use the same ventilation system as shown at Aspen Hot Glass. I couldn't get the parts at Granger, but found them all on the internet without too much trouble. While putting it all together, I decided not to use the variable control because in El Paso, I still can pull heat out in the "cold" season and not worry about it. It pulls great and actually makes the torch flame curve upwards slightly at the end, so I know it is drawing well.
As for the hood, I chose a cheapie oven hood from Lowe's that was on sale for about $13 or $14 and removed the fan and light. That's about 2 feet above my torch and really works super. I have a CO alarm mounted on the wall and it hasn't gone off once (yes I test it). I forgot to turn on the blower once until about 2 hrs into a session (The blower runs that quiet and acts like white noise) and got to feeling really woozy, so I know it is working good when it is turned on.
I use flex aluminum(?) vent hose from the hood to the window, where the blower is attached to a board that I can easily remove if needed. Having the blower pull the exhaust from the hood all the way to the window before entering the blower keeps the motor from overheating. Have been using this system for several months and have had absolutely NO problems with it.
Hope this helps.
09-02-2002, 11:23 AM
This is another one of those stupid questions because I don't know the dynamics of central air conditioning.
My client, who is 94, keeps the house closed up pretty tight. (It's a barn-style house with about 70 per cent of the house rather "open.") He does have central a/c though, with option for "fan." Does that draw from outside, or does it merely keep the indoor air moving? I don't have much of an option for cross-ventilation with my temporary fan, except for the window right beside it, which I assume would defeat much of the purpose of venting out the window.
09-02-2002, 05:49 PM
Here' a pic of my studio with ventilation. The fan pulls about 2270CFM which would theoretically change the air 4.43 times per minute (or ever 13.5 seconds) in my 8 foot cubed studio. I still feel it is inadequate though due to the vast amount of eddies about in my space. Adding the "hood" (rolled up aluminum roof flashing./sheet metal) significantly decreased my exposure time to incense, and hopefully this translates into reduced heavy metal exposure.
05-25-2003, 01:00 PM
Well, THIS is interesting... I just got this message (and the email alert to it) a few minutes ago.
Apparently the cosmic bit-bucket has finally begun to overflow.:rolleyes:
05-25-2003, 01:19 PM
LOL Kelly! Cybor space is a very odd place indeed. :D
05-08-2006, 05:32 AM
I really feel some concern about some current ventilation systems.
To my mind, we should be looking toward removing unwanted contaminants AWAY from our breathing zone ie mouth and nose.
With this object in mind, to have an over-head exhaust system ensures that any contaminants pass THROUGH our breathing zone.
I suggest that it would make more Occupational Hygene sense to have any extraction system placed IN FRONT of the workspace , to maximise extraction of unwanted contaminants ie: heavy metals, frit particulates and other NASTIES.
I'd be glad to hear any of your thoughts on this.....
Mandy in OZ:wave:
05-08-2006, 06:12 PM
If you have your nose over the frits, i have larger concerns about you. ;) I have a squirrel fan that draws 1200cfm thru an 8 inch pipe thru an emptied range hood. All pouring, caustic, etc is done under the range hood. However I have the fortune of working in the medical field and see how they handle toxic substances, before we inject them into people that is, there is no risk taken. mesothelioma is worse than cancer, That's what kills you if you don't handle this stuff right.
Of course now I am going to get someone saying they have done it for 15 years this way and no problems. they can jog 50 miles and they are xyz healthy. I say good for you. However some of us humans take only a very limited exposure to toxins before we react.
Final thought-- Play with your stuff under a vent, if it won't pass the tissue or incense test it is not pulling enough air away form you. Research here, at a commercial kitchen store, ask, ask, ask. You can not replace your health or your lungs.
05-09-2006, 11:43 PM
I'd be more than a little worried about that too!!
Thanks for the tip and pics
06-05-2006, 05:04 AM
I have found this thread very interesting..
There is a lot one must know before one buys any equipment. It is all a little overwhelming, but I shall keep digging through the archives until I at least understand some of the terminology..:D
06-05-2006, 05:55 AM
this is my vent system. i had it fabricated at a sheet metal shop so that the air is drawn near the torch where the heavy metal residue pools (or so i have been told). it is vented directly out the wall and has an inline centrifugal motor that draws at about 450 cfm.
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