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barbara-in-color
04-23-2008, 11:49 AM
Hi,
I am a colored pencil artist. I have read that some use water soluble pastels as an underpainting and then apply cp over it. Are they referring to water soluble oil pastels? I have never used them.
Also, what are your favorite Oil pastel art instruction books?

Thanks so much for your ideas.:wave:

wabbitt
04-23-2008, 02:27 PM
Hi Barbara, first I'm taking a big assumption that you intend to cover up your underpainting to call your work CP, as opposed to mixed media.

I've played with the Portfolio and Caran D'ache watersoluble oil pastels enough to know that it won't completely dissolve. When you start putting colored pencils over it, you'll be scratching away what's left with your first layer of CP because the CP will still be harder than OP, which in case you didn't know never completely dry...not even the WS ones. If you apply the OP lightly with the intent to dissolve it all, it'll be like CP over watercolor.

If my assumption was wrong, then I don't think it would matter if the OP chunks (maybe it'll look more like shavings) show or not.

Something I've been playing with lately is dissolving regular oil pastels with Turpenoid. I hated it over a gessoed surface because it got sticky and two weeks later I still don't like that the surface is too soft to put another OP layer. However on cold press watercolor paper and bristol vellum, the extra turp gets absorbed into the paper and eventually dries, meanwhile I can continue layering OP's on top. The look of the OP/turp underpainting is similar to the washed out watercolory look of the watersoluble OPs. I haven't tried it yet, but I've heard you can blend CP's with turpenoid too. I imagine it would be like working with watercolor pencils.

Pat Isaac
04-23-2008, 03:35 PM
Hi Barbara, I tend to agree with Julie that putting CP on top of an OP underpainting wouldn,t work too well. I have done CP over a watercolor base and that works quite well.
There aren't many books out there on Oil Pastel, but John Elliot's "Oil Pastel for the Serious Beginner is the newest one. Ken Leslie has one called Oil Pastel, but it is out of print, though some libraries may have it. Also Bill Creevy's Pastel Techniques has a section on oil pastel.

Pat

Artchrispy
04-23-2008, 04:26 PM
Hey Barbara. I experimented by using ink marker ie. Prismacolor under an op or cp drawing. For me it sped up the cp drawing process as I didn't have all that tooth to worry about filling. You won't even have to keep obsessively sharpening the cps.;)

starblue
04-23-2008, 05:54 PM
Hi Barbara. The "water-soluble pastels" being referred to are probably media like Caran d'Ache's Neocolor II, Cretacolor's Aquastic, or similar items from Lyra, Staedtler, and others. I'll call them here WP's--wax pastels. WP's look like kids' wax crayons and act nothing like OP's, but they are artist's quality, and they all happen to be water-soluble (hmm--never thought about that before). They would need to be dissolved with water so they won't lift, otherwise they'll act much like OP's in that CP's will most probably cut through them rather than lay on top. I believe some CP people are having success using Derwent's Inktense water-soluble ink pencils as an underlayer because they're designed specifically not to lift once wetted and left to dry, and the colors are more vivid than standard WC pencils. (Disclaimer: The label on the Aquastics say "water-soluble oil pastels" and I haven't used them, but a local store carries them and they look like Neocolors, which I do have and which say on them "water-soluble wax pastels", and reports in this forum indicate little working difference between them but a large difference between them and OP's. I myself have never tried WP's under OP's.)

barbara-in-color
04-23-2008, 10:27 PM
Thanks for the advise Bob and artchrispy. But -Julie, You assume that I want to mis-represent my work? I never misrepresent my work after many years of successful book illustration and fine art work.

barbara-in-color
04-23-2008, 10:31 PM
No, I never misrepresent my work.

Hi Barbara, first I'm taking a big assumption that you intend to cover up your underpainting to call your work CP, as opposed to mixed media.

I've played with the Portfolio and Caran D'ache watersoluble oil pastels enough to know that it won't completely dissolve. When you start putting colored pencils over it, you'll be scratching away what's left with your first layer of CP because the CP will still be harder than OP, which in case you didn't know never completely dry...not even the WS ones. If you apply the OP lightly with the intent to dissolve it all, it'll be like CP over watercolor.

If my assumption was wrong, then I don't think it would matter if the OP chunks (maybe it'll look more like shavings) show or not.

Something I've been playing with lately is dissolving regular oil pastels with Turpenoid. I hated it over a gessoed surface because it got sticky and two weeks later I still don't like that the surface is too soft to put another OP layer. However on cold press watercolor paper and bristol vellum, the extra turp gets absorbed into the paper and eventually dries, meanwhile I can continue layering OP's on top. The look of the OP/turp underpainting is similar to the washed out watercolory look of the watersoluble OPs. I haven't tried it yet, but I've heard you can blend CP's with turpenoid too. I imagine it would be like working with watercolor pencils.

starblue
04-23-2008, 11:40 PM
Hi again, Barbara. I thought you would be interested in this thread in the Watercolor Forum's "Learning Zone" by user "rue d'oak" about watercolor crayons (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445136) (what I called "wax pastels"). It's more about how to use them as their own media rather than as adjunct to something else (like CP's) but it discusses their characteristics, their use wet vs. dry, comparisons with WC pencils, and so forth.

wabbitt
04-24-2008, 12:21 AM
Julie, You assume that I want to mis-represent my work? I never misrepresent my work after many years of successful book illustration and fine art work.

Barbara, I'm sorry you misunderstand the reason I state my assumption that you wanted to cover up the underpainting completely. I thought I was explaining why I thought it would be tough (but not impossible) to do it. And I thought I was offering another technique to get a similar looking underpainting (CP w/ turp). I certainly never meant the assumption statement to be taken as an insult.

Perhaps it's engineering training that I must state assumptions I make when I explain something. I was taking a much needed break from work and I wasn't thinking about art business, reputation, or anything like that. I coulda/woulda/shoulda worded better had I been thinking of more than just the technical aspect of CP over water soluble OP. I never dreamed my words could be read as you did. Again, sorry about that.

sundiver
04-25-2008, 09:59 PM
There are soft pastels that are watersoluble.Holbeins are one brand.Actually, most soft pastels will dissolve with a brush and water. I've used them for underpaintings for softies and o.p.s; haven't for cps though. They're still a little dusty.

Scarefishcrow
04-30-2008, 03:17 AM
Actually, there are two varieties of watersoluble WP (to borrow Bob's term). He described Neocolor II well (it comes in 126 colors and should not be confused with NeoColor I which is NOT water soluble).

Caran d'Ache also produces a completely different product that is richly pigmented, water soluble and available in up to 60 colors. These are called NeoArt and are incredibly FAT sticks of WP about 3/4"or + in diameter and about the lenght of a typical pastel or OP stick 3"+or-.

These are IMHO much higher grade and contain more pigment. They are great for covering large areas quickly, or can be used alsmost like fat, round watercolor pans with a wet brush picking up color for mixing on a pallette. You can use them from anything from thin washes to opaque layering. Very different prodcut the NeoColor II.

The Portfolios mentioned are manufuctured by the maker of Crayola and are student grade and not intented for professional grade work.

Hope this is helpful.