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AnnieA
03-11-2008, 03:23 PM
Yeah, the photographs make sense for recording the sort of info that you mention, expecially when the info is missing from the mfg's site/brochure. The alternative is to transfer the info to one's own color chart, but the photos may be quicker over all. Dakota Pastels offers a binder for recording color info: http://www.dakotapastels.com/index_colorcharts.shtml They also offer hand-made color charts for their soft pastel lines, so maybe they'd do a special order if someone wanted one for OPs.

You know Bill, I found something that would be a perfect project for somebody like you. It's the WikiHow, which has absolutely nothing (that I could find) on Oil Pastels: http://www.wikihow.com/Main-Page (I think the how-to art articles are listed under hobbies and crafts, instead of arts and entertainment.)

I think the regular wiki on Oil Pastels also needs some correcting. And somebody (I think it was Ryan, who hasn't posted here for quite a while) was trying to work with ASTM (I think that's the organization for setting standards for art materials - Pat could probably correct me on that if I'm wrong), to try to come up with an accurate definition and standard for OPs. Ryan, Jane and Pat were discussing the issue with Mark Gottsegen, who wrote a recent book on art materials, and I seem to recall that he said for a standard to happen, there needed to be someone who joined the ASTM organization and who had a lot of perseverance to make sure the standards committee addressed the issue.

The desire here in the OP forum was to define OPs as containing non-drying oil (mineral oil), while oil sticks/bars are those containing drying oils such as linseed. I don't think there's been any progress since those conversations happened a couple of years ago. With your scientific background and seemingly boundless enthusiasm, you'd be able to carry the ball in projects like those - and as a fellow scientist you'd probably have a lot more credibility with the ASTM folks, too. Perhaps you could prepare the work and then run it by Pat (or some other experienced OP artist that she might recommend), which would have the advantage of employing her expertise, while making less of a demand upon her time than if she tried to do all these things herself. Or maybe you could start some threads and solicit the input of everyone who was interested. OTOH, it could be that the Oil Pastel Society is working on developing a standard - I don't know.

Any one of those tasks could probably help you avoid "honey-dos" for months. :lol: But I'm really serious in making the suggestions; it just suddenly occurred to me how perfect you'd be for those kinds of tasks. They're things that interest me as well - my B.A is in Social Ecology, so the classification thing, as I mentioned before, has it's hold on me too - but that I know I'd never get around to. I don't mean to be volunteering you myself :evil::eek:, but I'm just throwing the ideas out there in case you find any of the ideas intriguing. :angel: :) If not, well, I hope you don't take offense to these cheeky and unsolicited suggestions. :p

Pat Isaac
03-11-2008, 03:53 PM
You are right about the standard issue Annie. Ryan was a member of the ASTM, but I guess he never pursued it further. As far as I know the OPS is not working on a standard and this came about because the CPSocirty had just had their standard approved. It took a looong time.
I'm going to have to make a chart of my new extra greasys.....

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-11-2008, 04:57 PM
Pat--Thanks for the PM.

Pat and Annie--Quite the contrary, I don't mind the suggestions at all. I would love to do something useful as I am learning and as I mentioned to Pat I joined OPS and would like to help if I can. I took at look at the WikkiHow and it is interesting, but I think at this point it is far to sketchy in its approach.

I would certainly be willing to look into working on a standard, but I would have to find out more since I really don't know too much about the ASTM or how one becomes a member. While my posts are sometimes rambly, I do tend to be fairly good at writing and editing when I'm dealing with more serious pieces and would be glad to put whatever skills I have to use for either OPS or WC in the OP forum.

Since I am relatively new, I certainly would want some guidance and counsel from experienced artistis like yourselves. I want to approach "projects" with a more serious and deliberate approach than simple posts and discussions. Annie (and Pat already knows) feel free to PM me and elaborate on ideas. I have already bounced a few ideas off Pat and some of this would probably be best initially broached via PM's so we don't run into problems of "getting OT" or "hijacking" threads inadvertently.

I loved what I did for over 30 years, but, as I'm sure Pat understands, there comes a time when you simply need to change directions and get involved in new things to keep from becoming stale. That was at the crux of why I retired, because I felt myself losing the spark and excitement of my earlier days. It happens, I think, to almost everyone. It is a bitterseet transition and I cannot overemphasize how important a role my landing (by whatever hand of fate) in this forum has reenergized my enthusiasm. As Pat probably understands, though, I periodically need interraction to keep me on track and the prompting from you, Annie, is always a great incentive. (I can tell that getting together with the two of you would probably be a real "hoot", a phrase Pat brought back to mind! I think we'd have a lot of fun. I never really believed in myself regarding ability to be more than "intellectually" involved in art. However, I honestly am beginning to believe I can really get to the point of at least doing work that I feel is satisfying and something I would be proud to display. Not everyone may like it, but what artist ever attains universal appeal??

Annie, Pat--Keep stoking my boiler and I'm going to keep Posting and ask me ever so often how such and such is going and that will keep me from slipping off track. I think you probably understand best what I mean, don't you Pat?

I go full steam when I'm excited about something, but I've always done better when I interract with others in the process. It's like research, I enjoyed it much more when it was collaborative than when done alone.

Thanks for all the ideas and encouragement and let's keep talking one way or another!!!!

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

AnnieA
03-12-2008, 01:31 PM
Bill: Yeah, the WikiHow appears to be fairly recently started. I like the idea though.

For more background on the ASTM issue, you might take a look at this thread: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393943&highlight=ASTM
(Note that graeler=Ryan) It strikes me that it might be helpful to find out if the soft pastel folks are working on a standard and how they may be approaching it. Perhaps it would be possible to combine forces.

As I read re-the thread, it does seem like perhaps Ryan, at least, was primarily concerned with lightfastness standards for OPs. I myself am far more interested in setting and then disseminating some sort of standard about their composition, so that, for instance, we would no longer be faced with the head-scratcher of a Picasso work labeled "oil crayon on paper." This is something that in my relatively short time posting her in the OP forum, I've seen come up numerous times. I think it may be something that ultimately interferes with the wider acceptance of OPs; if the definition of what an OP is constantly fluctuates, it becomes harder to tout their advantages as a medium.

There may be more info floating around in the forum about the standards issue. I also seem to recall that Jane also spoke to Mark Gottsegen and it didn't seem he was entirely clear himself that there was a difference between OPs and oil bars/sticks (or some similar issue - it's been a while :o).

Anyway, I'm glad you didn't take offense to my offering you unsolicited advice. :)

Scarefishcrow
03-12-2008, 03:25 PM
Anyway, I'm glad you didn't take offense to my offering you unsolicited advice. :)

Annie-Please do not fear offending me. I am far to busy worrying about whether I said something dumb again or inadvertently offended someone to take offense. In fact, I am flattered that you consider me capable of getting involved in something so important. I warn you, though, I'll be calling on you for advice and counsel because I am very new to all this. I do consider myself to have become pretty well acquatinted with the basics of art history, I have tried and still like to, all sorts of media and have broad appreciation for different styles of art (some more than others, of course), and I do try very hard to be supportive of people here and the forum itself. I also know I tend to make long posts, but sometimes it is as much to help codify my thoughts as to parade them in front of others. In my youth (and oldth, actually) some people will mistakenly take this as my being pompous. I don't intend it to be, but when your grandparents were both teachers, your mother a teacher (for ~40 years), your sister a teacher and principal and your brother a retired colonel from the army reserve, your uncles both college educated and "assertive" you have no choice but to tend to construct dialogues rather logically and well supported!!! Add to that the fact that you spent 30+ years teaching when, like many other profs, you are really an introvert (had to take that @#$$% Myers-Briggs thing years ago and ended up in some isolated corner, of course). It just happens I am a very gregarious introvert!

So, to make a long story short, (actually too late for that), I am very flattered and excited about getting involved in something that can be useful. But I will want to make sure I understand all the issues before charging ahead, so you keep feeding me any information you feel relevant.

I always enjoy your posts and you and Pat both seem to have such a grand sense of humor and the ability of laugh at yourself and take your work seriously, without taking yourselves (or me) too seriously.

As the old Reader's Digest column used to tout, "Laughter is the best Medicine".

I hope perhaps we can meet in person some day (and I hope that flu is finally taking its leave. I know how those bugs can hang on.

Now, one last thing. I hope you will expand on your views as to the boundaries of OP (that is what prompted my first thread about what defines an art medium). I used to take some umbrage at the negative view I perceived that soft pastelist had for OP'ers, but the more I have learned and thought about it, they really are quite different media. I have been drifting more toward the idea that they fit more into the "oil" family than the "pastel" family. The Picasso thread has strongly influenced my thoughts along those lines. Where do Oil Stick and Oil Bar and Extra Greasy Pastel fit? Do oil painters embrace them under their rubric or are they something like OP that has tended to fall through the cracks? What happens when OP'ers use solvents or oils to blend OP? I think these are issues that we would have to have thought through well and have a logical rationale for any standard that was proposed. Do you agree? What are your thoughts? Pat, it would be nice if you could weigh in here as well.

How does this relate to the OPS and what is the leadership structure there and how and who should we interface with there? While someone, whether me or not, needs to be the point person on such an issue, it seems that that person needs a core group of experienced individuals to act as a formal "task force" or "standards working group" so that the effort would not be a single individual but have the force of a professional group behind it.

I am thinking aloud and if this continues to be discussed perhaps we should start a specific thread dealing with the issue of proposing a standard for OP and defining what issues that standard would address. If we are going to go through the effort, we should make sure we consider all issues that are significant (e.g., lightfastness might well be something that should be encompassed). Once a standard is set, it become like concrete and second guessing is not likely to be an option. So if it is to be done we must make sure that we get it right the first time around as we will not likely have or want the opportunity to revise it down the road!

Pat, Annie...does this seem like a logical approach and the way you would see as the best way to proceed. Pat has already suggested this will probably be a long process and are we willing to committ to the long haul and would it be worth the effort?

Those are my basic questions off the top of my head regarding this issue and I will anxiously await your thoughts.

Pat, I will let you decide if and when this gets to the point of a serious enough discussion to create a dedicated thread. I am open to becomming involved, but I believe there has to be others, at lease in the background supporting the effort for it to be successful.

Bill

AnnieA
03-12-2008, 04:07 PM
Bill: Well, it's good that you're not offended. Curious that you should mention Meyers/Briggs, because I had toyed with the idea of asking you about that (I have a feeling it may be a "takes-one-to-know-one" sort of situation here :lol:).

As far as expanding on my views, I think I pretty much stated them earlier. It would be useful, imho, to have some mutually-agreed upon standard definition for oil pastels vs oil bars vs oil sticks, vs, for that matter, soft pastels. That way, we wouldn't be fumbling around when people start discussing any of these media. While I think oil bars/sticks do fit into the "oil" (as in paint) family, OPs may need a category of their own because of the different type of oil that makes them non-drying. This means that they shouldn't be used interchangeably with oils - or at least that's what I've been reading here in the OP Forum. I have however, experimented with mixing OPs with my Shiva clear blender, which is clearly made with linseed oil, and have seen no ill effects thus far, so it's possible that caution isn't really necessary.

All that is just my take, however. I too would be interested in Pat's take, and in whatever the members of the OPS have to say about the issue (I'm not a member at this point).

I'd be happy to offer my input should you decide to run with this, Bill. But I must warn you that I have a limited amount of time myself that I can actually commit to it. But it does interest me, so it's likely that if you proceed, I'll be able to offer feedback when requested.

I hunted down a link to the Holbein OP list that includes the color index names and numbers for each OP. It's available as a downloadable pdf here: http://www.holbeinhk.com/pdf/complet_pg75-107.pdf This may be helpful to some, because the only Holbein "color chart" I know of consists only of photos of their OPs. Knowing the pigments may help in making color choices.

I think the above is excerpted from a larger brochure that must be available on the Holbein site.

Pat Isaac
03-12-2008, 05:01 PM
Now, one last thing. I hope you will expand on your views as to the boundaries of OP (that is what prompted my first thread about what defines an art medium). I used to take some umbrage at the negative view I perceived that soft pastelist had for OP'ers, but the more I have learned and thought about it, they really are quite different media. I have been drifting more toward the idea that they fit more into the "oil" family than the "pastel" family. The Picasso thread has strongly influenced my thoughts along those lines. Where do Oil Stick and Oil Bar and Extra Greasy Pastel fit? Do oil painters embrace them under their rubric or are they something like OP that has tended to fall through the cracks? What happens when OP'ers use solvents or oils to blend OP? I think these are issues that we would have to have thought through well and have a logical rationale for any standard that was proposed. Do you agree?

It is true that soft pastellists in general do not include us in their shows, though a few do. We are an enigma to them and the only comparison is that OPs in stick form like the soft pastels. Nor do oil painters embrace oil sticks and pigment sticks. We definitely are in a category unto ourselves and I have found that it is very hard to get recognized as such. Most shows that I enter are under the pastel and drawing category and I always feel great when I win a prize in that category or even get accepted into a juried show.

How does this relate to the OPS and what is the leadership structure there and how and who should we interface with there? While someone, whether me or not, needs to be the point person on such an issue, it seems that that person needs a core group of experienced individuals to act as a formal "task force" or "standards working group" so that the effort would not be a single individual but have the force of a professional group behind it.


The OPs has a staff which administers the site, myself being one. We have recently had some staff leave key positions because of work issues in the private sector. We are now getting new members to help with our newsletter. I could find out if this is something that needs to be addressed by the group and we do need a group behind the effort. I know it will be a long process and i don't think the soft pastel group here is doing anything, but maybe the Pastel Society of America is. I'll ask some of my friends who belong to this if they are.
I'm also going to see if I can find the Ryan threads.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-12-2008, 06:20 PM
Annie-Myers Briggs, don't remember categories but if you look at the 4x4 matrix you will find me in the cell just below the upper left hand corner!!
I think that what you are currently doing and possibly giving feedback is what I had in mind, Annie. If I am going to take a substantive role in this, then I would want the advice and counsel of sage artistis such as yourself, Pat, and any others. So I don't see this as something I would expect you to invest large amounts of your time in if you don't have it. But your advice and knowledge would be comforting for someone with mostly "book learnin'" about these issues to be able to consult.

Pat--The very fact that an artist as talented as you, producing the beautiful works you produce finds it hard to fit comfortably and easily into a definable niche in shows is, IMHO, absolutely unexcusable for the art community to allow. I think you probably understood that my thread about the definition of an art medium was primarily a rhetorical question on my part, rather than really one of trying to fill a voiid in my intellectual familiarity with art media. I do not pretend to have a comprehensive grasp of the spectrum of art such as you, but I do feel I have tried to educate myself fairly broadly in basic theory in a wide variety of media.

I would, however, need support and advice from those more experienced to help me with issues I might not understand. As I said, I would like to know if this is something that you feel would be a significant and substantive issue that would advance and clarify the position of OP vs. similar media. Would it be something the OPS would be supportive of?

You mention loss of people involved with running the OPS site. What types of skills are needed? In some way I would feel bettes tackling this issue if I had a better knowledge of the people involved in OPS and developed a good working relationship with them. One thing does come to mind and I don't know what his feelings might be, but I have been thinking Bob might be very good to get involved in some way. His background is in IT and Web development if I understand correctly and he strikes me as one that thinks very clearly and logically about issues and approaches things in a very methodical way. I also believe, though I would need to double check, that he is a member of OPS.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say here and understand I am not trying to "wheedle" myself into some official role with OPS, but find a path to engage meaningfully with the Society. I guess right now I really don't know what role an Associate Member such as myself plays and how I could be of assistance in such a way as to make the standards task more likely to be successful.

If there is someway I could be of assistance with the newsletter or site I would be more than willing to do what I can. I certainly don't have Bob's expertise in the sense that was not my "job", but I have worked with web sites and done some development of small projects associated with school. I also have a fairly good working knowlege of multimedia, including graphics, imaging, and videography and have a number of higher end media development software packages that would allow me to help with imaging and graphics tasks.

I guess the bottom line is that I will take a look at some of the links that Annie provided and any you supply. I will also try to look into the ASTM and its operation.

I will basically look to you for guidance in how or whether to proceed because I don't want to stumble into a hornet's nest and find that I am stepping on someone's toes or being seen as trying to inject myself into something others view as inappropriate for me. I think you probably understand with your background in education that there are always political dimensions to issues such as these and you are much more familiar with the personalities and issues involved.

I do think it would be useful for me if you could get a link to or copy of the CP standard you referred to earlier as that would give me a better idea of what needs to be addressed and exactly what issues regarding basic process are likely to arise and need to be addressed.

I hope this all makes sense to you. I want to help, but I don't want to interfere. Do you understand what I mean?

These are exciting times and while the forum ebbs and flows, it seems to be a vital place and I am more and more gratified by the kind words I get from everyone from veteran artists to necomers like myself.

Best wishes to both you and Annie. Whatever turns and twists these ideas take, I appreciate the confidence you seem to have in me and am flattered by your even discussing such an important issue with me. I am quite hmbled and hope that I can live up to your expectations in whatever my relationship with the OP forum and OPS is in the future. Every day I feel a growing enthusiasm about just being around artistis such as you two and I hope i can be of some service, whenever and whatever that might be.

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Pat Isaac
03-12-2008, 06:39 PM
Thanks so much Bill for your offer of help. I'll check out a few things and get back to you.

Pat

Pat Isaac
03-12-2008, 06:47 PM
Bill, here is the initial link that Graeler(Ryan) started.....http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393943&highlight=Graeler I haven't read it all through again, but will and see if there is anything more to do. There is info about the CPS.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-12-2008, 08:22 PM
Pat-Printing out thread. What happened, last post looked like things were on track and positive.

Registered at the AMIEN site and checked out the ASTM site. If this goes anywhere would it be better to join as participating member or just informational??

Pat Isaac
03-13-2008, 10:35 AM
I think I remember now what happened. It was the money. The OPS wasn't ready to be the doers at the time and I really didn't want to take on that responsibility as I had enough on my plate and really am not that technically inclined. I did register at Amien and was willing to help, but I didn't want to be the one in charge. I'd get information first from the ASTM site.

Pat

AnnieA
03-13-2008, 12:36 PM
Pat: Does the lightfastness issue seem worth pursuing? I had understood that lightfastness is not as much an issue in media such as OPs, because the binder(s) can act to protect the pigments from light damage (or something like that). At any rate, it's watercolor where lightfastness is really a huge issue. OP pieces I painted as much as 10 years ago have shown not the slightest amount of fading, even those done with the cheapest-of-the-cheap Pentels, and using lots of reds and violets (the two hues that one would most expect to find had faded). So personally, I don't think the lightfastness issue is worth pursuing, but perhaps you and Bill see it differently.

When I raised this issue, I was doing so in relation to the problem of not always knowing what a painting medium is. Oil pastel? ...oil bar? ...oil stick? What are these, really, and how do we know one from another? Since the different types of oil in these products suggest different techniques/practices, having a definition that was clear would be very helpful, in my view.

Pat, do you know whether ASTM delves into setting standards for what art materials are - their composition as opposed to other art materials, in other words? If ASTM does not, is there some other organization that does?

Scarefishcrow
03-13-2008, 01:01 PM
Pat--Since we are talking color, in my investigations of Color standards, sites, etc. I came across this. I thought you might find it contained some interesting color tools, including color matching tool that gives % similarity of two colors if you enter ther hex code (can get using Photoshop tool).

http://www.colortools.net/color_matcher.html

Read the thread and it seemed to simply die. I also went to the AMIEN forum and searched and found the thread related there (including your post). Mark G. indicated that it would be best for an artist to be a member (I'm not sure I qualify on that criterion). When you say it was the money, what do you mean. The $75 ASTM Membership or were there additional costs involved.

I also found the article I have previously referred to about comparison of "Soft" Pastel (a term disliked by the author) and "Oil" Pastel. It was in the Pastel Journal, Issue No. 41, 2005, pp. 60-62, by Margo Schulzke.

Some notable quotes:

"In an effort to attract buyers who were serious artists, Sakura eventually renamed its product "oil pastels," a decision Sakura marketing director Pether Ouyang described to me over the phone some years ago as a marketing strategy intended to borrow from the credibility of traditional pastels." ibid. p.61

"In Paris in 1947, entirely independent of what was happening Japan, Pablo Picasso...asked Henri Sennelier to create a stick form of oil paint for him, a special order of 30 sticks each in 48 colors. Pierre Guidetti, CEO of Savoir-Faire, related to me that Sennelier made 50 sticks each....When the artist picked up his completed order, Sennelier deposited the remaining sticks on the shop counter. Although the sticks had no product name attached to the, they sold quickly. Atrists returned, enthusiastic about this new product--describing the still-unnamed product to the clerks as 'oil pastels.' Sennelier attached that consummer-chosen name to the new product and began to manufacture it." ibid. p. 61

"Pastels and oil pastels have little more than their shape in common. Employing the same term to describe two such different media mere because they're both in stick form is like lumping oil paints and watercolors together because both are sold in tubes and applied with a brush." ibid. p. 61

"Pastel artists who've worked for decades with the medium, myself included, remember all too well the struggle to get separate, competitive categories established for pastel in multimedia competitions....Naturally, most of us are reluctant to confuse the public or give up ground we've worked so hard to gain." Ibid. p. 62

"....On the Intertent we find notice of the First Annual Oil Pastel Society Members Show, which opened online June 15, 2005....Along with a fair amount of work that was amateurish among that which was descibed as professional, I found some impressive work. I was particularly intrigued by the van Gogh-lik quality of George Shipperly. Who knows where this group's efforts will lead? We wish its members great success." ibid. p. 62

"....bad enough that we have to deal with the widespread notion pastel refers to pale colors....can't we use a word more evocative of the powerful images the medium creates, its history or its distinctive nature?....Any of those are more descriptive of the medium than (sigh) soft.
Naah, let's just settle for the historic moniker pastel. It was ther first. Let the latecomers add the adjectives as they have with water-soluble oils....They've been plain old pastels for some 400 years. Let's keep it that way...." Ibid p. 62

This was the source of my recollections about the history of the name Oil Pastel, for whatever it is worth.

"Amateurish"?????


Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Scarefishcrow
03-13-2008, 01:48 PM
Pat: Does the lightfastness issue seem worth pursuing? I had understood that lightfastness is not as much an issue in media such as OPs, because the binder(s) can act to protect the pigments from light damage (or something like that). At any rate, it's watercolor where lightfastness is really a huge issue. OP pieces I painted as much as 10 years ago have shown not the slightest amount of fading, even those done with the cheapest-of-the-cheap Pentels, and using lots of reds and violets (the two hues that one would most expect to find had faded). So personally, I don't think the lightfastness issue is worth pursuing, but perhaps you and Bill see it differently.

When I raised this issue, I was doing so in relation to the problem of not always knowing what a painting medium is. Oil pastel? ...oil bar? ...oil stick? What are these, really, and how do we know one from another? Since the different types of oil in these products suggest different techniques/practices, having a definition that was clear would be very helpful, in my view.

Pat, do you know whether ASTM delves into setting standards for what art materials are - their composition as opposed to other art materials, in other words? If ASTM does not, is there some other organization that does?

As I understand the web site, ASTM does set standards for the composition of art meterials, but I am looking around since there are a variety of color standards organizations. Clearly, AMIEN and Mark G. seem to be the central person to ask regarding these questions.

I do not know about the binder protecting the pigment. However, mounting under glass may play a role in protecting color since glass can have the effect of absorbing UV wavelengths to some extent. This would be the most likely source of light to fade or alter pigments, I suspect.

Lightfastness is probbly not as great an issue since, as long as the manufacturer indicates the CI names of pigments used to produce the product, these generally have lightfastness ratings and known properties. For example, the Erengi ArtAspirer OP's specifically state that the fluorescent colors are NOT lightfast. In my reading, apparently manufacturers "hijack" pigment lightfastness ratings and use them implicitly.

I may be incorrect about this, but my understanding of what ASTM does is to produce written "Standards" that define specific steps and analytical methods to be used in testing various aspects of a product. They do not actually do any testing. They simply outline what testing must be done and rigourously define the methodology to be used in order to be certified as meeting the ASTM standard. My impression was that the lightfastness issue for most art materials simply uses the same procedures defined under the standards for testing inks for business applications.

I am wondering, Annie, whether everyone would agree on the boundary among OP, Oil Bar, Oil Sticks, EGOP, Oil Pencil, etc. This is where I was going when I started the "What defines an art medium?" thread! I sensed the same sense of uncertainty. OTOH, with the rapidly changing nature of the medium, discussions of could a fixative for the surface of OP be developed that would allow mounting without glass, etc., there may be various opinions as to where the boundary, thus standard, should be drawn. Even with my limited expertise in art, I sense that this issue could be one that excites passion on various sides of the issue. I would hate to see us become as self absorbed and overly strict in our perception of OP as they author of the article I cited in the previous post seems to be. It is a two edged sword. On one hand you wish to have a way to leverage recognition as a distinctive unit, but by doing so do we want to create a new generation of artists that are then left orphaned as "we" seem to feel at the moment?

Perhaps we are really skirting the more basic issue. In today's techologically changing world, where standards take decades to develop when media can change in a much shorter period, how does the art community IN GENERAL develop a way in which there is an appropriate area in multimedia competitions for every artist to have her or his work judged in relation to comparable pieces.

Not to offend dog lovers (which include me and my beloved labrador, Zoey, that has now discovered a way to sneak into our bed at night), but we create situations where, like the famed Westchester Dog Show I once watched on cable, you are naming "Best of show" by deciding among breeds as radically different as Great Danes vs. Lhaso Apso vs. Dalmations. To me it is a meaningless exercise because one can only assume that the winner is whatever breed the judge(s) happen to like, regardless of what they might say! Is this happening in todays rapidly changing world of art media. Are media changing faster than societies can react? What is the objective, here? A standard? Or is the standard viewed simply as a means to a more important end, recognition and appropriate and fair access to competitions?

These are really distinctively different issues. The question ought to be asked, "Is getting a standard the BEST way to acheive a common goal?" and "What REALLY is (or even is there one) our common and real goal?"

We should be certain that pursuing a standard is going to do something other than plop a logo on OP sticks, and ask is that what we are really concerned about?

I hope anyone reading this will PLEASE understand that I am asking these questions as a rhetorical device to help us think about what is important and what we, collectively, can agree we would most like to accomplish. They are not meant to "stake out my position" (I really have none defined). The are not meant to dampen enthusiasm for a standard. They are simply points I think we all need to consider in determining what is the best thing we can do (other than painting) to further recognition of what most around here would view as a distictive but not totally defined (some might even say difficult to define) niche in the visual arts community.

I know I speak as somewhat of an outsider, but sometimes we outsiders can see things with a different set of eyes; just as other artist's may see problems with a piece whose creator is too close to the work to see clearly.

Do these thoughts make any sense to otheres?

:music: :heart: :music:

AnnieA
03-13-2008, 02:48 PM
Bill: I understand the issues you're raising about whether a standard is necessary, but I also recall that in another thread that I believe was posted at Amien, Mark Gottsegen advised Jane to use chalk (or some similar soft pastel ingredient) to make OPs! This suggests to me that even an expert in art materials (and Gottsegen certainly is an expert) is unclear on the differences between OPs and soft pastels. I can't help but think that this indicates a problem in getting the recognition for OPs that all of us OP artists desire.

Pat Isaac
03-13-2008, 04:36 PM
First, I remember reading that article about OPs in the PJ. It received a huge outcry form OP artists.....amateurish.....please...
Personally, I don't think getting a standard would make any difference to the way people think about OPs and it may just put a sticker on the label.
The biggest problem that I see is the problem of entering shows, OPs are not recognized on their own merits. This used to bother me as I always had to enter under the pastel and drawing category. However, I've gotten over that as I have gleaned some prizes in that category and I have sold work. One problem is the small amount of OP artists there are and until that oil pastel is used by more artists, I think nothing will change. More artists are using it as their prime choice of media, but not enough yet. Think of this, I am in a community of artists (50) and no one uses OPs. I am also a member of many art associations in my area and there is not one other OP artist. I'm alone, but that is okay as I do demos and workshops and educate others on this medium.
Some societies now include OPs as a category and Maine has it's own Oil Pastel Society and the Chicago area now has a large group.
I still think that it is relatively easy to distinguish between oil sticks and oil pastels. The labels so state.
BTW, I found the thread with Mark's recipe for OPS, but his link is no longer there.
Am I making sense? Don't want to dampen people's enthusiasm.

Pat

AnnieA
03-13-2008, 05:56 PM
Pat: Yeah, I remember that article too, and how annoying I found it. :lol: Shulzke is to be forgiven, perhaps, because I think what she was really trying to do was gain greater acceptance for her own media. Who can hold that against her? Nonetheless, having used both, I happen to think there are similarities between OP and SP: both are at once both drawing and painting media.

As far as a standard and the issue of inclusion in shows is concerned, I can't help but wonder if it's sort of a chicken-and-egg thing. Couldn't an announcement of a separate standard for OPs in itself bring a lot more attention to the medium, and perhaps a bit more acceptance too?

I still think that it is relatively easy to distinguish between oil sticks and oil pastels. The labels so state. Well, didn't we (some of us at least) come to the conclusion a while back that the EGs might better be considered oil sticks, because they contained not mineral oil, but linseed oil? I'm not trying to split hairs here, nor play favorites (I myself plan on getting some of the EGs eventually and they sound like a great product). But my concern is that with linseed oil (I understand that's what EGs are made with), some of the techniques that would be fine for OPs might not work so well. Painting on paper, for instance, would present archival problems because of the acid in linseed oil that OPs, with their inert mineral oil, would not have. Similarly, paintings done with EGs woudn't really need to be framed under glass, as they would ultimately dry completely. This is the sort of thing that has lead me to think we need a standard.

It's the question of the oil used that makes a difference, as far as I can see. One of the very big advantages of OPs, especially for the new artist, is that they can be used directly on paper with no need for priming. This is because the inert oil used in their manufacture doesn't create the problems that linseed oil does. But if we don't have clarity and use the term "OPs" for sticks made with linseed oil instead of mineral oil, there are going to be artists who use them on paper and they will become very disatisfied with the result when the paper starts to disintegrate. They will think it's a characteristic of OPs that caused the problem, not realizing the issue of the oil was in play. It will cause fewer artists to use OPs - they'll get a bad reputation.

Let me know if I'm way out in left field here. Perhaps I've got it all wrong...but do you see what I mean?

I found the link to the Gottsegen recipe thread: http://www.amien.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159

I guess what I was remembering is that he said to make the same sort of "paste" that one would make for SPs, which to me indicates chalk of some sort. Perhaps that wasn't his intention. I now also notice that Jane mentions that Leslie recommended using stand oil (a version of linseed) to make OPs. :sigh: I give up... :lol:

AnnieA
03-13-2008, 06:55 PM
I found one of the threads where the oil issue and the recipe for OPs was discussed in detail: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378496

btw, has anyone else noticed a problem with the WC clock? It's been showing the wrong time ever since the daylight savings rollover.

Peiwend
03-13-2008, 07:19 PM
As an artist who uses several media (sometimes in combination) there is something that I don't like about classifications that are restrictive or have exclusions. All artists' media overlap to a certain extent. When I buy art materials I don't buy them based on what they're called and in what category they fit. I buy them based on their quality and whether they will help me express my subject with creativity.

I like oil pastels because of their handling and convenience among other things. Since I don't work on raw or untreated paper with them, it really doesn't matter too much to me if they dry or not. Although, if they dry, it is more practical. I think that all oil pastels will dry eventually although it might take decades. I have an unfinished work that was done over ten years ago with Holbein Artist oil pastels and some parts of it are quite dry. Admittedly it was left mostly in the sun and the colours haven't faded to my eye.

Whether someone wants to call oil pastels, oil crayons or another wants to call oil sticks, oil pastels doesn't matter to me one bit. I look at the work first and the medium is only secondary. Sometimes we get too caught up in the minutiae or little details and forget the essence.

Finally, for me, any sticks composed of pigment, wax and oil, in any combination or proportion, could be called an oil pastel. If somebody else wants to call them by other names doesn't bother me at all.

_________________________Wendell

AnnieA
03-13-2008, 10:58 PM
Wendell: I certainly understand what you're saying, and I do have to admit to a certain amount of wonkiness in how I approach things. :o

But there have been warnings against mixing oil paint with oil pastel posted here in the past. Everyone has said that oil paint should never be put over oil pastel, because the non-drying nature of OP vs the drying oil paint will eventually cause problems in the painting surface. Wouldn't the same thing apply with oil sticks/bars (linseed oil based) applied over OPs (mineral oil based)? If we don't have some way of distinguishing the materials, how do we guard against these sorts of problems?

Or is there a problem? Is it that correct that mixing OPs and drying-oil-based products is likely to create later problems? Maybe that's what's confusing me. A painting from quite a while ago (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382024) which was an experiment using Shiva blender and liquin and OPs looks ok (well, the surface looks OK, the painting itself is another thing :lol:), although it took forever to dry (to a normal OP level of "dry"). One way or another, I feel I really would like clarity on this issue.

Since this is a thread about color charts, I'll now return to the topic :p and post a link that I posted quite a while ago to a site that offers what looks like a pretty good online reproduction of a full Holbein set (the old one, with all the intermediate tints shown): http://www.artxpress.com/commerce/catalog/spcategory.jsp;jsessionid=8A443AB8D7FD2C49E111EC64A5EA1868?category_id=1201&czuid=1156277437153

Peiwend
03-14-2008, 12:56 AM
I don't directly mix media on my paintings. I will use oil pastel or soft pastel over dried watercolour or thin gouache. I've also done an underpainting of thinned - down oils for oil pastels. I love using soft pastel on wet paper. This is what I meant by combining media. One can also use oil pastel over dried paint sticks. I want to try doing a background and sky in oil sticks and after it is dry using oil pastels for the details. I think anyone who tried to put the hard paint sticks over oil pastels would just end up with a mess. I tried mixing liquin and oil with oil pastels and ended up with a mess.

In oil paints you must follow the fat over lean rule. There are also alkyd paints which, in combination, must be used under the oil paints yet for labelling purposes they are considered oil paints. Oil paints mixed with alkyd medium must go underneath oil paints mixed with oils. There are water-based oil paints which can be used with regular oil paints following certain rules. These are all considered as oil paints and they are all applied with brushes or other tools.

Oil pastels, oil sticks, pigment sticks etc. along with oil paints could be considered oil-based media. As time goes on we will probably be seeing other oil-based products. I'm pretty sure that in time a drying oil pastel similar in handling to the Senneliers will be invented.

Watercolour, gouache, ink and acrylics are often used in combination. There are certain ways in which they can be used together. Acrylic can be applied over watercolour but gouache should not be applied over acrylic. More and more they are labelled as water-based media.

I will often experiment using different media for my own enjoyment but certainly would not encourage haphazard mixing for finished works. Responsible artists should know the materials they are using. Driven by curiosity, artists have always tried different things. That's how we learn and that's why oil pastels were invented in the first place.

_____________________________Wendell

Scarefishcrow
03-14-2008, 03:22 AM
Pat,

As Annie mentioned in a post in the thread on color charts, the OP Standard discussion if really OT for that thread. Secondly, and most importantly, IMHO, the title belies what is becomming a very important and perhaps pivotal discussion under a title that many people may not take a look at or become involved in the dialogue.

I have started this thread and as you think appropriate, could we move the posts that began with the standards discussion to this thread so people will realize that this could be a topic they want to investigate?

I am going to reply to some very good posts by yourself, Annie and Wendell regarding that dialogue here rather than confuse the issue further.

(BTW, Annie, I will be very dissappointed in you if you "give up" or don't strongly express your views as should everyone. One of the things that preceded my retirement was what I perceived in my department as the deterioration (after major turnover following the Retirement Boom that followed the Hiring Boom in the late 60's and early 70's) of collegiality and the ability to discuss important issues in an animated and, a few times even heated, manner and maintain a general understanding that differing strongly on policy and decisions professionally MUST BE KEPT separate from interactions with individual colleagues in professional and social contexts.

I hope you will bear with me as I set the stage for what, in my artistically limited experience, but considerable academic/intellecual dialogue experience, leads me to believe that this dialogue coud be (other than actually painting) one of the most important things we can all get involved in.

Probably the friend I have know the longest (since 1971) and I were grad students together and hired here unbeknownst to one another the same year. Until I retired we had become the most senior faculty in terms of years service at this university, in our department. Now he is the sole patriarch. As friendships go through the years they are sometimes very active, others not so, waxing and waning in terms of interraction but the bond that was created initially, if strong, never ends. Such has been our friendship, even though we have often seen issues with very differnt views and argued on opposite sides of certain issues. One thing he told me long ago and I agreed with was that our friendship was more important than any issue we ever discussed professionally and this made us stronger because we knew we could voice opposing viewpoints forcefully and not take them personally. He continues to be a person that I would consult and whose opinion I value immeasurably until this very day.

Now, I know many people are doing :rolleyes: :confused: :p :lol: , about this time and I probably don't blame you because I hate being on the receiving end of pious parables such as the above. However, I have also seen colleagues that have everything to gain by vigorously discussing issues then, whatever the direction taken joining in and moving forward toward a common goal lose sight of that fact and end up working against everyone's best interests.

I suppose many will think me presumptuous to have arrived here so short a time ago and now begin acting like a "pompoous know it all". Well, don't worry, plenty of people here and other places have always reminded me of how little I know! When I make statements or assumptions about things and am wrong, I expect Wendell or Annie or someone elsto to take me to task and point out their view.

If that doesn't happen in this forum then not much will!

If you are reading this and have not read the posts I mentioned to Pat at the beginning of this thread then you probably haven't got a clue about what I'm saying, so don't feel bad.

-----

Now, with my perambulatory babble out of the way, some notes regarding what has been discussed thus far:

1. I think the issues being discussed are important and if not faced will lead to continued problems for talented artists that wish to use OP and find no room at the inn when they try to enter competitions.

2. It is healthy to discuss, as I tried in the first thread I ever started, what constitutes the boundaries of a medium like OP. We are back to the same questions I asked then. What about Oil Bars and Sticks, EGOP's, WAX Pastels, Watersoluble Pastel, Oil Pencil, etc.

3. Attempting to create a standard via the ASTM probably is a worthy and suitable goal, but one that will most likely take consistent and persistent effort for about 10 years. Can OP artists wait that long to even begin to argue (based on a standard) their "need" or "right" to a fair and equitable place at the table in art competitions? One that allows their work to be judged with comparable work?

4. I do not know, nor have any animosity toward, the author of the 2005 article in the Pastel Journal from which I cited various sections in a previous post. She has every right to her opinion, and she articulated it forcefully and effectively. She used every writer's trick and knavery to produce the result she desired, assert the primacy and greater validity of Pastel (sans the soft) over (ugh) OP, the "amateurish" work in the latecomer medium of OP.

Was she sarcastic? (Yes). Historically accurate? (most likely). Articulate? (Quite.) Effective in elevating the reputation of Pastel (sans the soft) to a higher, more noble plane than the common workhorse of schoolchildren, OP? (Unfortunately, I suspect she was quite effective.) Do I resent or lack respect for Pastel (sans the soft) artists and artwork and its importance in the history of art? (Emphatically NO. I love traditional pastel works, admire many artists, such as Degas, that not only used the medium but did things with it that probably astounded contemporaries as possible to do with the medium!)

{an aside, I never could quite understand that there was no problem with Pastel (sans the soft) using and gleefully promoting so-called "HARD" pastels or "Pastel Pencils" without the slightest indication, IMHO, that they are not perfectly acceptable. A bit of a conundrum to me.}

5. How do OP artists gain greater acceptance and respect for their chosen medium and leverage that into appropriate competetive categories in art competions?

I would suggest we take a page from Ms. Schultze's book and not become so absorbed in an arcane and time consuming standards project UNLESS we also make agressive and assetive atempts to heighten awareness of OP's legitamacy, heritage, history, techniques, developments and (MOST IMPORTANTLY) how effectively it is being used by (whether, full time or not)competent talented artists to create amazing and very professional pieces of art that don't "need to be respected", but deserve and command that respect through their sheer forcefulness, creative character, and overpowering nature of their intrinsic artistic MERIT!!!

IMHO, we may or may not need a standard developed. That is an entirely separate issue and project that could or should be pursued simultaneously with placing into the public arena well written articles in more general art magazines about OP and OP artists, their works and develpments in the changing field. Much of the raw material for such articles is already lurking in the recesses of countless threads that populate this forum. How do we pull that information together into a form that can be published so that others will understand what is as well as what can be? Perhaps it is the academic in me that tends to view the importance of publications in building image and respect.

Finally, a standard does NOT mean that manufacturers must meet certain criteria to call their products Oil Pastel. That is a government regulatory issue. ASTM standards simply define testing proceedures and criteria to be met by manufacturers to be able to assert that their products meet the ASTM standard for Oil Pastel. It is entirely voluntary, not mandatory.

I expect I am reaching, if not already over, the limit on post size the program will accept, so I will end here and go to bed.

Dialogue is not only welcome, if we wish to collectively change the state and stature of OP in the art and public communities, it is ESSENTIAL as is ACTIVE INVOLVEMENT!

Respectfully.
Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Pat Isaac
03-14-2008, 08:11 AM
I too have used oil pastels over dried oil sticks and often used a thinned down oil underpainting. I really like that approach. It is also true that my new exrta greasys are more like paint sticks in that they will eventually dry. There are papers made that you can use for paint sticks, i.e. colorfix, Sennelier La Carte and I have used museum board gesso.
I used liquin once and made a mess and then it took forever to dry. I remember that painting Annie and what a time you had with it.
Hadn't noticed the clock......Looks okay to me now.

Pat

Pat Isaac
03-14-2008, 08:28 AM
Okay, I am going to move the posts. Let me know if I get them all.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-14-2008, 10:54 AM
Okay, I am going to move the posts. Let me know if I get them all.

Pat

Pat, It looks to me as if all the posts under color charts beginning with Annie's Post #24 should be move to this thread. I don't know if you can leave a copy of #24 in both since she also makes reference to some links regarding color charts.

However, I can easily add a post that quotes the relvant parts of Annie's #24 in the color chart thread.

Essentially everything from #24 through your post #43 really focus on the Standards/OP Awareness issue.

I don't see how the two issues can really be effectively "decoupled" as we scientist love to say, because the discussions tend to intertwine and seem to be facets of the same general "umbrella" issue of how to heighten awareness of OP as a serious and important medium in the visual fine arts!!

Does that make sense to you, Pat? Have I properly framed the issues that are involved in this discussion, in your professional opinion? I think it is important to know that this is not simply the babbling of a "newbie". Also, by moving the posts I hope Annie doesn't mind that the thread is listed as being initiated by her. That is fine with me, but I don't want to put that onus on her if she does not desire to have it so listed.

Annie??? Any concerns regarding that?

Thanks for all your interest and engaging dialogue.

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Pat Isaac
03-14-2008, 11:07 AM
I'm still moving posts, but there is no option to copy a post, just move it so you might have to add the link in the chart thread again.
Back later.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-14-2008, 12:38 PM
Thanks, Pat. I think you got everything. Tally ho!!

Bill

AnnieA
03-14-2008, 01:45 PM
I was quite surprised to come by here this morning and see that I had started a new thread in my sleep! :lol: No problem though - it makes sense to separate some of this. My apologies for not starting a new thread on the issue, but when I raised it, I really hadn't anticipated that it would work itself into such a long side discussion. Thanks for moving things, Pat.

I don't directly mix media on my paintings. I will use oil pastel or soft pastel over dried watercolour or thin gouache. I've also done an underpainting of thinned - down oils for oil pastels. I love using soft pastel on wet paper. This is what I meant by combining media. One can also use oil pastel over dried paint sticks. I want to try doing a background and sky in oil sticks and after it is dry using oil pastels for the details. I think anyone who tried to put the hard paint sticks over oil pastels would just end up with a mess. I tried mixing liquin and oil with oil pastels and ended up with a mess.
Wendell, thanks for your thoughts. Still, I've been painting with OPs for about 10 years, but I now find myself confused about the mixing issue. On the one hand, there are warnings against using OPs with wet oil paint, and some have reported problems with acrylic medium. OTOH, Creevy in The Pastel Book uses some very experimental techniques, such as mixing OPs and Shiva paintsticks, and mixing OPs with liquin (although this technique is indeed messy, I have to say it's also a lot of fun). So there are contradictory bits of info floating around.

Which is the accurate take on the mixing issue? Again, this is my reason for suggesting some sort of standard, which I see as a way to clarify some of all this. What brought up this issue for me is the EGs, which are called OPs, but are made with linseed oil. I can see how that would be very confusing for new artists especially. I'm not thinking of categorization as a limiting factor, but as a way to achieve clarity on what each different product does, and how it can best be used. If we called both acrylic paints and oil paints just "paint" wouldn't there be a similar problem there?

I will often experiment using different media for my own enjoyment but certainly would not encourage haphazard mixing for finished works. Responsible artists should know the materials they are using. Driven by curiosity, artists have always tried different things. That's how we learn and that's why oil pastels were invented in the first place.

Yes, everything you've written is true, but it seems to me that one of the ways of advancing OPs as a true artist's medium is to encourage new artists to take it up. So, let's imagine a new artist in the OP forum who decides to purchase sets of Senneliers and EGs, and uses them both in his/her paintings. Is this wise? Is it OK? What would one advise such a person? According to some of what you've written it's not a good idea to mix these two, but since they're both called "OP" can you see how this is confusing to the new person? And this confusion may work against, imho, greater acceptance of both media. Hence, my suggestion of a standard, even if only one to use here in the OP Forum.

I'm not a professional artist, but I still wish to use my materials responsibly. But I also love to experiment and I'm wondering also if maybe "fat over lean" doesn't really apply to the issue of non-drying vs drying oil. At this point, given that the earlier painting I mentioned upthread seems to be entirely OK at this point, although it took over a year to stop being excessively tacky, I'm unclear if it's really OK to use the both together. I can get some good results by laying down a layer of clear Shiva paintstick and painting OP into it, so I'd really, really like to know if this is ok or would be likely to lead to problems. I've asked that question a couple of times now, but nobody has responded. Maybe none of us really know at this point... :confused:

Bill: I see no ill-will here at all, so you're cautions were really not necessary.
You might want to consider re-posting the color matching tool you mentioned in post #14 in this thread to the other thread on color charts.

Pat: WC isn't reflecting daylight savings time. The posts I make are all shown an hour off. It's 10:45 AM as I post this.

Pat Isaac
03-14-2008, 01:48 PM
I think the issues being discussed are important and if not faced will lead to continued problems for talented artists that wish to use OP and find no room at the inn when they try to enter competitions.

Actually, at present there is room for OPs. You can enter in multimedia shows, some pastel shows that allow OPs and there are 2 Oil Pastel Society shows, on line and in Maine. However, most pastel society shows will only accept soft pastels. The breakdown of categories varies depending on the show.

Attempting to create a standard via the ASTM probably is a worthy and suitable goal, but one that will most likely take consistent and persistent effort for about 10 years. Can OP artists wait that long to even begin to argue (based on a standard) their "need" or "right" to a fair and equitable place at the table in art competitions? One that allows their work to be judged with comparable work?


It would take a very long time and I am not sure that it would serve the purpose that we all want.
The categories for multi media shows vary tremendously and I guess you just have to read the prospectus and decide if you want to enter. In many shows pastel and drawing are always lumped together. This includes soft pastel, oil pastel, graphite, charcoal, colored pencil...
I think having a separate category for oil pastel is a long ways away as there aren't enough oil pastel artists to warrant their own category. Drawing, for example, which includes colored pencil is almost always lumped in with pastel. I do know of many oil pastel artists who have been recognized for their outstanding work and ability, so they are out there and I do think the medium is becoming more recognized. I think we have to stop complaining that pastel societies won't recognize OPs and just continue in our efforts to promote OPs, by entering shows we want, giving demos, workshops and educating people. I do think that oil pastel artists have gained respect for their choice of medium and maybe we are looking at the wrong issue.
I seem to be blathering and am not sure I have made sense.

Pat

Pat Isaac
03-14-2008, 01:59 PM
Annie, my clock says 1:52 pm and that is the correct time.

I'm not sure a standard would do what we want it to - Define how the products can be used. I do find that many artists experiment with their media to get different results, but I do think that most artists wouldn't use experiments for their permanent work unless they knew it to be sound.
I like the idea of magazine articles for spreading the word and more of that is happening.

Pat

AnnieA
03-14-2008, 03:06 PM
Pat: Do you have any answers for me to the question I posed earlier about mixing OPs and Shiva clear paintstick? Ok or not? Bill Creevy has used the technique, but others say it's unwise. What to do? :confused:

I can't understand why your clock would be OK and mine not, unless the daylight standard time adjustment was not made correctly for my time zone, but not yours, by whoever it is at WC who does that (or maybe the software?). The clock is set correctly on other sites I visit (with the exception of one that sets everything to EST, but that's been consistent the entire time I've posted there.) The WC clock seemed wildly off for a time right after daylight savings time started, and I'm thinking maybe in correcting that, someone may have adjusted the Pacific time zone back to standard time by mistake.

Pat Isaac
03-14-2008, 03:17 PM
I guess I've not responded to that question, Annie, because I am not really sure. I have never used the Shiva clear paintstick except with my students in high school and that was in a different context. I have, however, used the R&F pigment sticks and used OPs with them and they weren't quite dry. That was about 10 years ago and they are fine. That is about as much as I can answer the question.

Pat

Peiwend
03-14-2008, 03:58 PM
Annie, I guess we are thinking along the same lines but expressing our thoughts differently.

I tend to agree with Bill Creevy when he says that all oil pastels will eventually dry. It may take decades but they will eventually dry if exposed to the air. I have a ten year old unfinished oil pastel done with Holbeins which was exposed to sunlight and air. Parts of it are thoroughly dry and it is unworkable. I, personally, don't believe that an absolutely non-drying oil pastel exists. The good news is that the oil pastel has not faded in the least. Does anyone else have an old oil pastel that has dried?

I should have clarified more what I was saying about layering versus mixing. My opinion is that media should either be thoroughly mixed or layered. I've had good results in mixing Dorland's wax medium with oil pastels etc. A layer of wax medium was first applied and the oil pastels were mixed into it. You've had good results using the same technique with the Shiva blender.

Generally, in painting, the rule is fat over lean when layering. One can also interpret this as slower drying over faster drying. To carry this one step further we could also say non-drying over drying. In using pure oil paint, one should not use ivory black (very slow drying) under raw umber (fast drying). In oil pastels one would first put down a layer of the oil sticks or Kamas followed by a layer of Holbeins or Senneliers.

A simple rule of layering slower drying over faster drying is not that difficult to understand.

I recall reading in an artists magazine that oil paints can be used over a very thin layer of oil pastel drawing as long as the oil in the paint thoroughly permeates the oil pastel. For what it's worth, I wouldn't see any problems mixing some oil pastels into the colourless blender as long as the layer of blender is not completely isolated.

In my opinion, we're better to have a large category of oil pastels with sub-categories of non-drying and drying etc. I think this would add to the appeal of oil pastels.

_________________________________Wendell

AnnieA
03-14-2008, 04:02 PM
I guess I've not responded to that question, Annie, because I am not really sure. I have never used the Shiva clear paintstick except with my students in high school and that was in a different context. I have, however, used the R&F pigment sticks and used OPs with them and they weren't quite dry. That was about 10 years ago and they are fine. That is about as much as I can answer the question.

Thanks very much, Pat. Since it appears this is a gray area, I think I'll continue to experiment with the clear Shiva paintstick and OP. My earlier piece used both the paintstick and liquin, so it's hard to know which caused the abnormally slow drying, and it's possible that it was a result of the heavy impasto I used as well. I don't sell my work, so I guess that gives me more room to experiment. If I notice problems, I'll report back.

I do think, even if there isn't a standard, we should all perhaps try to gently mention the uncertainty around the mixing issue to newbies when and if the issue comes up. As long as we make it clear that we know absolutely that using OPs alone is pretty much foolproof, there shouldn't be any negative consequences to mentioning it.

Pat Isaac
03-14-2008, 04:19 PM
In my opinion, we're better to have a large category of oil pastels with sub-categories of non-drying and drying etc. I think this would add to the appeal of oil pastels.
I agree, Wendell. To find the Kamas, another type of oil pastel was very exciting to me.
Good idea, Annie.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-14-2008, 06:06 PM
Haven't had a chance to read all the comments since last night, but I hope all of you didn't mind my starting the new thread. As I said, Annie, I didn't realize it would look like you had.

I hope some of what I said made some sense and we can all get some ideas about how to improve the OP situation.

Got to run now, wife is hungry. See Gusher for fate of my EGOP's.

:music: :heart: :music:
Bill

Scarefishcrow
03-14-2008, 10:43 PM
Well, I finally got a chance to read the thread since the posts got moved and I find it very exciting.

Pat, Wendell, Annie--I know I probably tend to overreact and sometimes get a little paranoid. I've been flattered, e.g., by things like Annie suggesting I pick up the standard project, and the patience you all have with a Newbie that tends to be hyperbolic when it is late at night. It is just that I think there is so much that can be done and I've gained a better understanding of the issues by perhaps having voiced my perception and getting a different take on some of these issues.

I think last night I was beginning to wonder if I wasn't stepping out of my level of competence and didn't want to come off as pushy. I guess you'd have to understand my background a bit to see where some of my thoughts come from and why they tend to flow in pretty much stream of conscious manner. Annie--you said you tend to be wonky in your approach. I guess I tend to be "thinking aloud and getting caught up in the excitement of being involved in something so interesting!

And, I just realized I'm doing it all over again (aren't I)?? Gosh, I have got to get rid of the last traces of that @#!@# paranoia. (You know, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you!!!).

So, I see things shaping up in the following way and tell me if I have misundertood or am catching on:

1. A standard doesn't really address the more substantive issue of making sure art materials are use appropriately (in terms of archival issues), that standard or not, we need to make certain people are educated on what is and is not appropriate use of materials until evidence is produced to indicate otherwise.

2. I probably have seen the issue of competition categories as a greater problem than it really is. That it is more of an issue of exclusion in more focused societal shows than more general art shows. One question I have is relaltive to the Oil Stick, Bar, EGOP, Paintstick, etc. Are these embraced by traditional oil painting societies and are they pretty much accepted as oil media in general. (I.E., are the more generally accepted than say OP??)

3. I'm not sure I remember who or where it was introduced, but I had been thinking along the lines of a more inclusive view of OP that embraced the stick forms of oil media and separating drying vs. non-drying categories. That would seem to do two things, IMHO. First, it would address concerns that Annie has regarding the appropriateness of practices of mixing media by embracing the "drying" forms as distinct from the "non-drying" forms. In biological societies I have been involved in they sometimes put together statements of "Best Practices" or "Acceptable Proceedures" that act as guidlines for workers in the field. The OPS could play a major role by acting to embrace both drying and nondrying stick forms of oil (wax?) media and setting out in statements "Generally Accepted, Archivally sound practices for the use of these media. In some way, such "standards by professional societies" sometimes carry more weight with members than some poorly undeerstood technical standard that is implemented voluntarily by manufacturers.

Here also, there seems to me, is an opportunity to try and get manufacturers involved (perhaps even providing some support) for the dissemination of information and education of artistists in the use of, new developments in, and quality of modern, professional oil pastels. It would certainly be in their interest to expand the use of them and their popularity in fine arts.

Embracing the drying media would also simultaneously make the circle of artitist that are using OP (in a broader definition of the term) by including those using Oil Sticks, etc.

Doesn't it seem likely, as with the EGOP, that there is going to be a convergence of these media somewhere down the line. Somewhere i ran across a technical article dealing with oil based works mounted under glass and the problem of developing, over time, "ghost images" or "blooms" on the glass. If I understood correctly this has been determined to be due to the slow "evaporation" or loss of fatty acids found in the oils and that over time there is a significant loss of particular fatty acids from particular oils. Wendell, you may be more familiar with this???

4. Regardless of whether a standard is pursued, we need to be more aggressive about raising awareness of the OP medium by putting articles about it into the public arena. I really feel this, more than anything, will have the most rapid and visible results of attracting more people to the qualities and merits of the medium.

5. That dwelling on where we can't participate is a waste of physical, intellectual and emotional energy that could better be focused on taking advantage of where we can participate. While Pat may be correct that a separate OP category (as OP is currently viewed) would probably take a long time to realize, would broadening the concept of OP to include drying and non-drying types add leverage for some appropriate category that would encompass OP defined in broader terms?


Now, as a someone that needs a book on "OP issues for Dummies", could you, my venerable, sage, and world wise inhabitants of the artistic equivalent of Mt. Olympus tell me if I am getting it?

Or, if not, please let me know that the gate is down, the lights are flashing, but there's not train in sight!!! (I.E., in polite terms, say no Bill, you idiot, this is why your standing on the pier and their ain't not boat at the dock yet!

Can y'all do that for little ole me? As Blanche DuBois says in Streetcare Named Desire......"Ya know I have always depended upon the kindness of stranguhrssss!!!!!!" [HANDKERCHIEF FANNING HER SWEATING FACE AS THE DUPE TRIES TO FIX THE CEILING FAN!]

Sincerely,
Blanche DuBois
:wink2: :wink2: :wink2: :wink2:

Peiwend
03-15-2008, 12:23 AM
Bill, you raise some good points.

I think the artist should take some responsibility for educating himself or herself about the materials used. There are plenty of resources available.

I have only entered two competitions, but in both of them there was no entry fee charged and no exclusive restrictions. By the way, I won both of them. Personally, I've serious doubts about some competitions that charge high entry fees and attract thousands of entries.

I completely agree with you about having an inclusive definition for oil pastels. There could be sub-categories for drying and non-drying.

Bill, I've read of fairly rare occurences of ghost bloom but have never really seen it. My understanding is that it's very easy to correct or avoid.

In my opinion, a good awareness is to have oil pastel paintings selling in galleries.

We also have to remember to leave room for the newer oil pastels which have yet to be invented.

______________________________Wendell

p.s. Don't depend too much on Stanley and Stella!

Scarefishcrow
03-15-2008, 12:36 AM
Wendell==Only you could come up with a rejoinder like "Don't depend on Stanley and Stella!!" I like your sense of humor.

I was really glad to see you raise the issue of broader definition of OP. I had been thinking about that all day and nearly flipped when I saw you were on the same wavelength. I have thought about the way Terrance from Pigments Plus phrased some of his comments about EGOP and I almost think that convergence of Drying Oil stick and Non drying oil stick is what he was getting at. I think they may see the EGOP as sort of a prototype for that kind of convergence. I would really hate to see OP become so narrowly defined that we essentially marginalize ourselves. To some extent I see this as (perhaps weakly, but somewhat similar to the acceptance of "hard" pastel and "pastel pencil" as valid variants of "soft pastel". If OP is considered only non-drying (if indeed that is even true) then that leaves us in a rather self defined narrow niche. I think OPS should establish working guidlines for accptable use of drying and non drying oil media in stick form and leave room for new innovations and experimentation that may eventually change our views on the compatibility issues of combining the two.

AnnieA
03-15-2008, 01:24 PM
Wendell: What experience have you had with the mixing of drying and non-drying media? Any problems? The info I've seen so far seems to be contradictory (especially given Creevy's experience and Pat's own response upthread). If there are no problems, then much of this is perhaps academic.

Bill: Your idea about the OPS producing some sort of statement on archivally sound practices is good and would accomplish what I was aiming for with the standards thingie. But apparently, there's still some question of what those practices would entail (see the above paragraph).

Peiwend
03-15-2008, 01:40 PM
Bill, a new variation in "soft pastel" has come along. It's the pan pastel that comes in cake form in a little dish and is applied using tools. Does this fit the definition of "soft pastel"? What if an oily pan pastel comes along?

The MSDS for Sennelier oil pastels indicates that they are made with safflower oil. To a scientist, is this a true non-drying oil? I have some old Senneliers (over ten years) and they seem to be less creamy than the new ones.

Apparently, Holbeins are made with non-drying mineral oil. Yet, I have an old (over ten years) unfinished oil pastel done with Holbeins and parts of it are quite dry. What is the scientific answer as to how and why this could be?

Applied in a thin coat and exposed to light and air how long does it take for a non-drying oil to dry? Ten years? Fifty years? Forever?

Does the addition of wax and pigment affect the drying time of oils?

Does the mixture of a non-drying oil with a drying oil result in a semi-drying oil, or does it result in a slow-drying oil? What is the difference between semi-drying and slow drying?

I was just listening to the radio program "Quirks and Quarks" where scientists attempt to answer common questions. Perhaps, Mr. Scientist, that's what aroused my curiosity.

_______________________________Wendell

p.s. The hapless Stanley is now yelling, "STELLA, STELLAAH!" as the sound of a streetcar is heard in the background. Soon, in the distance the sound of a cat on a tin roof will be heard...

Peiwend
03-15-2008, 02:49 PM
Annie, I often will layer, not mix, a slower drying medium over a faster drying medium on my paintings and have had no problems. However I will not layer oil paints over acrylic paints because of possible future adhesion problems. Following the manufacturers recommendations, I have mixed W&N alkyd paints with W&N oil paints.

Annie, I've made my living for many years now from the sale of my paintings. The possible risks and consequences of selling works based on unproven techniques is too great. Would I be compelled to refund the purchase price including the gallery commission if the painting deteriorates? What about my reputation?

That being said, I can also experiment on my own. The experiments that didn't work, to my satisfaction, involved mixing linseed oil with oil pastel and using Liquin over oil pastel but these same experiments worked using soft pastels. The oil seemed to permeate the soft pastel. The experiment that seems so far to be working with no problems is the mixture of the drying Dorland's Wax Medium with the non-drying oil pastels. The Dorland's Wax Medium also worked well with soft pastels and the Kama Extra-Greasies with no problems so far. I have an old Shiva Paintstik Blender but haven't had the time to try it as yet. I noticed on Ryan Graeler's website that a lot of his works are "Oil pastel & beeswax medium".

I'm sorry I can't offer more definitive information but hopes this helps.

_________________________Wendell

p.s. I'm sorry to read about your medical situation and hope it will be resolved soon.

Pat Isaac
03-15-2008, 04:25 PM
I agree that there should be some kind of inclusive definition of OPs. I know the Oil Pastel Society of Maine includes paint sticks and OPs in their shows. I should talk to the OPS about inclusiveness and now there are EGOPs. All of these in my mind are in the same category as they are an oil medium in stick form. I know that the pan pastels will be included along with stick pastels, because they are a pastel based medium. I have oil pastels in a gallery, but not exclusively to this gallery.
I, too have only layered dry and non drying OPs, not mixed.


p.s....my side's clear Blanche....

Pat

Peiwend
03-15-2008, 04:36 PM
Bill, I hope I don't come across as too aggressive in post #43.

Annie, I just tried the Shiva Blender with oil pastels on paper coated with Golden Acrylic Ground for Pastels. My Shiva Blender is quite old and a bit crumbly so I also tried with a newer W&N Oilbar Blender. Putting the blenders down first and working into them with the oil pastels (Sennelier, Holbein Artist and Neopastel) seemed to work well although a bit sticky for my taste. I had some difficulty working over the oil pastels with the blenders. Probably because they seem to have more pigment and are more akin to oil sticks, the Kamas worked best with the blenders. I also took out the Dorland's Wax Medium again and tried the same things. It worked much better for me and seemed to be more creamy than sticky. This could be a matter of personal preference and someone else may have a different result.

I guess we'll have to wait a few years to see for sure if problems develop. I'll set it on a sunny window sill and wait for it to dry. Then I'll try bending, folding and scratching it.

The oil pastels worked very well layered over dried oil sticks when I tried it.

Hope this helps...

__________________________________Wendell

p.s. Thanks, Pat.

Scarefishcrow
03-15-2008, 05:10 PM
Wendell,Annie--I think the points and questions you raise are very good and they are not unique to OP. I just happened to pull out the October 2003 issue of American Artist Magazine containing an article by Michael Skalka and Ross Merrill that summarized the discussions of The National Gallery of Art Artists' Roundtable on "The Properties and Techniques of Oil Paint". This was a discussion by a panel of the staff of the museum's conservation department and other technical experts held with artists' to provide information on conservators' experience with archiaval properties and problems with oil paintings with artists'. It touches on many of the same issues and talks about concerns about relatively recent developments in oil media and the fact that there has been little or no testing of the effects changes on archival properties (e.g., water miscible oils, alyd paints, heat-set paints, etc.).

When we talk about "drying" vs. "non-drying" my understanding is that this is not the same process the terms evoke in reference to aqueous media. My understanding was that "oils" really don't "dry" as in an evaporative process in water, but principally involves a chemical reaction upon exposure to air that results in an oxidation process that alters the oil components. (I'm not sure how this relates to the information I read on rates of fatty acid loss from oil media and if that is a different process or not).

I am certainly not a chemist and would never presume to speak authoritatively on such topics, but my speculation would be that all "oils" would eventually undergo similar types of changes, but the rate would vary. In particular, oils derived from organic (ala living not simply carbon-based) sources would have similar structural makeup, but the properties would generally depend upon what fatty acids comprise the three FA's attached to each glyerol molecule in the triacylglyeride (triglyceride molecules). The fact that plant oils (fats) rather than animal ones are used is primarily a function of the less saturated nature of plant fats which make them liquid at room temperature as opposed to the animal "fats" that are more saturated and typically solid at room temp.

Now, the interesting thing is that I got my EGOP's today. Have only quickly tried one and found them not really what I had envisioned at all, but much more firm than I expected them to be. I expected something softer than say Senns and these are rather firm. By some fluke, two of the 31 sticks I ordered were inadvertently (I suppose) Oil Sticks instead of EGOP's. I was instantly able to tell the difference before even looking at the label by the distinct feel and softness compared to the EGOP's. I am even more inclined to speculate that Kama/Pigments Plus envisions these as somewhat of a "convergence medium" of oil and op, and I am beginning to believe that Terrances reference to the EGOPs being made with linseed rather than mineral oils as being more "professional" may have been his way of stating this. Would that make any sense, Wendell??

Wendell--all your questions are very good and logically flow from the issues raised in this discussion. The answers are ones that might take years to determine, or less if sufficient resources and methods were brought to bear to examine these questions in an experimentally sound design, using appropriate techniques. Most likely, all of those procedures and techniques are already outlined in standards previously established by ASTM for other art media. Promulagtion of a new standard would, in all likelihood, simply involve pulling together the appropriate sections from previously establishes standards that would be relevant. I think that much of getting a "standard" promulgated by ASTM is more "political and economic", involving the slow process of convincing the manufacturers that it is in their interest to have a standard since they essentially bear the expense (and presumably passed on to the consumer) of the testing and quality control that allows them to state their products meet that standard.

The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to think that societies, since pigments have standards individually established, might better be served by focusing their efforts of determining for media they use what the current state of knowledge is regarding archival properties and establishing committees that promulgate "Best Practices" or "Acceptable Practices" for use of media covered that, as far as can be determined, will result in work that will be archival. (This will always be an evolving set of practices as new information and innovations in media are realized. Standards, once set are not easily changed. OTOH, being able to say that this piece of art has been produced in accordance with the most current "Best Practices" oulined by, say, the Oil Pastel Society, would seem to serve the same purpose and would place the Oil Pastelist's in charge of their own "standards" rather than depending on a glacially slow process in a thrid party standards organization.

Logical or do I get the "OP for Dummies" book down again?

"My, it certainly is hot on this tin roof, dontcha' think, dahlin'? I can tell cause my OP's are startin' to melt down!!!!! I think we bettuh have a mint julip before my colors all run togetha!"

Meowch!!! That burns.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Scarefishcrow
03-16-2008, 03:48 PM
Wendell-Here is a link to the study that discusses fatty acid evaporation from oils used in art media and effects of environmental conditions on rates.

I would be interested in what you think about this and how it might relate to OP drying or nondrying sticks.

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/waac/wn/wn21/wn21-1/wn21-106.html

Bill

AnnieA
03-16-2008, 05:59 PM
Wendell: Thanks for the feedback on blenders and OPs. Your experience seems to mirror my own: it's far easier to lay down the clear blender first and paint OP into it than the other way around. Clear blender applied over OP just tends to lift the color, while OPs over clear blender allows one to mix the colors used. And it is a sort of "sticky" thing that results (although that depends a bit on the thickness of the blender layer). I seem to recall that timing can make a difference - maybe the experience is less or more sticky depending on how long the clear blender has had to dry before the OP is applied. I need to experiment more to know for sure. I'm hoping that we'll ultimately find that combining media made with the two types of oil results in an archivally sound method, because sticky or no, it is a useful technique in some situations, imho. I have yet to try the Dorlands, though, so maybe I'll find that even better. Does it have oil in it?

Bill: Somewhere, I have a bunch of links to sites discussing the properties of oils. Most of it went over my head, since I didn't even take h.s. chemistry. At some point I'll try to dig them up and give them to you, as it sounds as if you'll be better able to assess them than I. An interesting question to ask is whether mixing the two types of oil results in some sort of molecular change that would turn the non-drying oil into a drying one. Wouldn't that be cool. Good points about the various societies producing "best practices" documents. It did cross my mind though, that since the soft pastellists already have a standard in the works, it might be possible to piggy back on their efforts to save time and efforts, since our medium is called "pastel" too. (I don't know how they might feel about that, though. :lol:)

Well, I'm bowing out of this thread, since my primary interest in all of this was whether drying oil and non-drying oil media can or cannot be successfully combined. Since the jury is still out, apparently, the only thing to do at this point, imho, is experiment and see what happens. That should be fun... :)

Peiwend
03-16-2008, 06:49 PM
Annie, the jar of Dorland's Wax Medium says,

"Translucent compound of waxes and resin to be mixed with oil paint, powdered pigments, powdered metals, colored sands, dyes and other compatible fine art materials. Excellent for encaustic painting, hot or cold wax painting and mixed media, and as a protective coating for paintings, wood, plastic, metal objects or photos. Unexcelled as a protective and permanent sealing medium. Resists cracking and dries more quickly than oil paints used by themselves."

Whereas I found the oilsticks/bars to be more shiny, the wax medium is matte. When dry you can buff it to a soft sheen.

Usually, I use the wax medium to make coloured waxes for finishing picture frames or for refreshing old frames.

By the way, the wax medium is not expensive and I bought mine from Daniel Smith in Seattle.

______________________________Wendell

Peiwend
03-16-2008, 09:58 PM
Bill, I went to your Stanford link and don't know what to make of it. The only ghost images I've ever seen were on things like charcoal drawings which had been poorly framed and in bad condition and some of the charcoal or pastel came off on the glass. The places where I saw these were second-hand shops and country auctions. They don't give any information as to how often this happens or if it's a rare occurance. It seems to be something that happens perhaps in dark storage which is why it could be an issue for museums.

Pat, since you have a longer association with oil pastels, have you ever seen these "ghost" images?

________________________________Wendell

Scarefishcrow
03-17-2008, 12:56 AM
I have been rereading Ray Smith's "New Artist's Handbook" which has considerable information about chemistry of the media and pigments. There are some seeming contradictions between this book and Simon Jenning's "New Artist's Handbook" regarding things like compatiility of Oil Bars and OP, and the nature of the chemical properties of the various oils in the OP's. It is a confusiing situation. Somehwere I recall seeing someone post that Senns contain safflower oil. Smith includes that as a Semi-Drying Oil. Linseed oil seems to be the only major oil used by artists that Smith categorizes as "drying". I am beginning to wonder, as I think you may have speculated, whether the oils in OP are truly "Nondrying" or simply take a very long time to "dry". Smith's book describes OP as not suitable for long term work because of durability issues. I'm not sure what that means.

OTOH, I cannot see OP as less durable than soft pastel, can you?

I'm trying to get a better understanding of the composition of the various drying vs. nondrying OP's (I think that it is very artifical to draw a bright line between the two).

There are many questions, some well stated by you, that loom on the horizon unanswered and really need to be addressed.

:music: :heart: :music:

Pat Isaac
03-17-2008, 07:56 AM
So far, I have never seen a ghost image on an OP. Soft pastel, yes, but not OP and all my OPs are framed under glass. Some of my paintings also have pigment sticks in them and there are no ghosts.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-27-2008, 10:46 AM
I just noticed the Fine Arts Links pulldown and went to the Artists Network.com link (Artist's Magazine, etc.). Selected browse by medium and chose Oil Pastel. Then selected show ALL OIL PASTEL ARTICLES.

Check the link and see what's there!

http://www.artistsnetwork.com/ArticleSearch/?category=oil_pastel&orderby=title&orderdir=asc


Is it any wonder that OP artists are often not taken seriously. IMHO, this is where our real problem lies, not in standards, etc.

Pat, an article in Artist's magazine profiling you and your work would be great. An article on the history of OP. An article profiling professional artists marketing OP work entitled "Oil Pastels--They're not just for kids anymore!"

My gosh, I recall an article in Artist's Magazine profiling a guy that specializes in melting CRAYOLA CRAYONS with a hot iron to make art. He even lamented the cost of getting enough White Crayolas and the company sent him a semi loaded with several thousand to promote his work.

We have to start getting our message out. How do we best go about doing that? If we are serious about raising the profile of Oil Pastel, then we can't have people go to ArtistsNetwork.com and find when they select browse by Oil Pastel an empty screen!!

Tell me how to go about it and I will gladly work with people to develop articles and edit them and submit them for publication. We must get some press coverage because people equate the importance of a medium with its prominence in the niche media that cover art.

Maybe I'm just living in a pipe dream! I want to help but am not sure how!:crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:
Bill

Pat Isaac
03-27-2008, 11:43 AM
I have always felt this was the real issue, Bill. Several years ago, I submitted slides to the PJ for consideration in an article and they sent them back saying they were not publishing articles on OPs anymore.
There is a place in the American Artist Mag where you can send info to regarding articles for publication. You might do that and see what they say. I definitely agree that more info about OPs should be out there. It is a slow process. I also had the Walter Foster publishing Co contact me for slides regarding an upcoming book on OPs. They intended to have 4 artists in it and demos of their work. I was turned down, but it would be interesting to see what that looks like when it comes out. Maybe in the fall. It would be nice to have another reference volume out there.
I like your idea of the article called "Oil Pastels - they're not just for kids anymore"

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-27-2008, 12:11 PM
Thanks, Pat. I need a shot of your optimism and encouragement ever so often. I know it's slow and I know how hard you have worked toward this. I just want to work on some of these things, but also need to develop my skills so I will have some credibility.

Maybe I will try drafting some outlines for ideas and then post them here and get some of you that are interested to help suggest how to flesh them out and develop a strategy. I mean it just made my heart sink when I selected OP and a huge blank page came up. (I didn't mean to knock the guy that works with Crayola, but it just seems if that can get coverage talented people like you out to be recognized and profiled. Maybe we could develop something in line with your upcomming show with images and a profile of you and your work!! I think it would make a great topic for the "OP--They're not just for kids anymore!" The Pastel Journal I understand, but I think Artist's Magazine and American Artist would be open to articles like this since I think they want to focus on the broader art scene and highlight developing areas.

Give me any thoughts you have.

Thanks.

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Pat Isaac
03-27-2008, 05:24 PM
That is a good idea, Bill. In the meantime, I'll check out what mags like from someone I know that writes for one of them.

Pat