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Scarefishcrow
03-07-2008, 03:01 PM
Nico- The following link will take you to a complete set of color charts for Sennelier's OP's

http://www.sennelier.fr/v1/gb/13nuanciers/nuanciers/pastelhuile1.htm

I have attached the three images to this post for your convenience. This should allow you to easily match against the color chart you found.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Pat Isaac
03-07-2008, 03:11 PM
Thanks, Bill. That should work nicely.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-07-2008, 05:11 PM
Not a problem, Pat. Just thought I could help out a little. Anytime, let me know.

:music: :heart: :music: :wave:

starblue
03-07-2008, 05:22 PM
I'm reposting Bill's 3 charts to mark the colors that are no longer made. Also, the 200 range of colors is missing, and I couldn't locate one at Sennelier's website.

Pat Isaac
03-07-2008, 05:42 PM
I thought of those new colors, but I have never encountered a separate chart for those colors or one where they are included. However, they are on the chart of new colors that is in the box when you buy them. I haven't found them anywhere on line.

Pat

Pat Isaac
03-07-2008, 05:46 PM
I do have all of them, but won't be back to my studio until after the weekend. Some of the 200 range colors would work well as they have some nice ochres. Maybe you could start and see what you can match with what you have.

Pat

fishfan
03-07-2008, 06:55 PM
From an ad on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-DELUXE-SENNELIER-120-OIL-PASTELS-GIANT-SET-WOOD-BOX_W0QQitemZ330216347263QQihZ014QQcategoryZ28107QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Mar-2008/80491-Pastels120.jpg

Pat Isaac
03-08-2008, 07:08 AM
Ah there are all the 200 colors. thanks, Ed.

Pat

AnnieA
03-08-2008, 11:21 AM
Sennelier has a newish OP color chart brochure available showing all the colors that they now produce, including the 200 series. At first I thought that the image that Ed posted was a photo of the brochure, but it's not, because Ed's image shows the OPs listed in numerical order, while the brochure groups them by hue. I have a copy, but I haven't seen them around much in art stores.

The U.S. distributor of Sennelier is Savoir Faire. I would think anyone that wanted a color chart brochure might be able to get one from them: www.savoirfaire.com (http://www.savoirfaire.com) or 415-884-8090. Although the colors aren't reproduced with complete accuracy (typical for most color charts) it's still quite a useful thing to have.

nico, in your case, you might ask your local art supplier for a copy of the brochure, or write to the Sennelier company itself

Scarefishcrow
03-10-2008, 02:49 AM
From an ad on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-DELUXE-SENNELIER-120-OIL-PASTELS-GIANT-SET-WOOD-BOX_W0QQitemZ330216347263QQihZ014QQcategoryZ28107QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Mar-2008/80491-Pastels120.jpg

I looked at this color chart and looked at my set of Sennelier OPs. Something did not look right with some sections of the chart. I reorganized my Senns, tried to double check numbers with a magnifying glass (not easy when they have been used) and am reasonably sure that I have the correct numbers for the sticks I have (I am missing 2 or 3). I made a copy of the chart Ed found, enlarged it, cut it into segments and printed out the chart with space for swatches of my sticks on two sheets of white Daler Rowney Acrylic Paper (it fit in the printer, ok??). I then put down swatches of my Senns and there are some significant discrepancies. I also desaturated the images and there are even value differences between the chart on EBAY and actual color swatches. It is possible I misread the numbers on some sticks given the small size but I was fairly careful to double check. I have attached both the color images for comparison and the desaturated images for value comparison. If others see differences between the samples from my set vs. theirs, it would be interesting to know and double check my chart for accuracy. If nothing else it shows how misleading printed color charts may be. Let me know what you think.

Bill:music: :heart: :music:

Pat Isaac
03-10-2008, 07:20 AM
I do find that there is a big discrepancy between the color chart and the actual oil pastel. However, I do find it useful when I have taken all the paper off and forgot to record what the #was...:eek:

Pat

fishfan
03-10-2008, 08:38 AM
Bill, those are huge discrepencies. I looked at my set and it's like yours. I'd say the posted chart should be ignored. Here's another that I think someone else posted here (I don't remember who or when). Ed

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Mar-2008/80491-Image1.jpg

Scarefishcrow
03-10-2008, 11:14 AM
I did go back this am and check my chart against the ones posted by Sennelier and (at least for ## below 200) mine matched their chart very well. I think this chart was possibly prepared by the seller and was not carefully done. In a couple of cases it seemed I could see where ## and colors had been swapped.

The color charts by manufacturers are generally fairly accurate, but I think you need to beware of charts from other sources and this exercise takes a little time to do, but is worthwhile in that it gives you an accurate depiction of the colors you have and familiarizes you initially with the range of colors in a set.

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

AnnieA
03-10-2008, 12:03 PM
The charts are always off - it's because the 4-color printing process just can't produce colors accurately. What I generally do is get a copy of the manufacturer's chart, and then reproduce it on my own, using whatever pastels I have. It makes it much easier to know what number OP I need to buy when I've used up one, because there's no doubt about the color. It also can help me know which OP I may next need to purchase because one can more easily judge the colors of an OP on the chart by seeing the actual colors of the OPs surrounding it.

But the brochure is still useful. If anybody thinks it would be helpful, I'll take a photo of the brochure provided by Sennelier and post it here, but with the color distortions involved both in photographing and in posting, it's unlikely it will be entirely accurate either. And/or I could post an image of my own color chart, which includes many of the C.I. numbers. I don't have the full Senn set so I've hesitated to post it so far, and it too is bound to be inexact. Just FYI, the C.I. numbers for Senn OPs can be found on the label which can help in identifying colors too, but only when they're brand new because the lettering on the labels quickly becomes illegible.

Scarefishcrow
03-10-2008, 02:35 PM
Annie--I have started to produce as accurate charts as I can by taking new OP sets I've purchased and photographing the actual pastel sticks with the label showing number, name, CI Numbers, Lightfastness, etc. in groups of about 5 against a black background. I have done this with a brand new set of Erengi ArtAspirers and the entire 225 set of Holbeins. I hope to lay down actual swatches next to the images and post them. Do you think that would be useful to have available for people to refer to? I'm not really sure where to post it, though. Attached is an example pic.

BTW, I printed off the older color charts on the Sennelier site and except for darker colors that get clipped in printing, my chart matched surprisingly well with the one they show (although it does not have the newer 200's. I think the carry away message here is that unless you have confidence in the individual providing a color chart, you should stick to those provided by the manufacturer. As Ed said, some of the color discrepancies were quite dramatic and obviouly not the correct color and number combo. I know making charts seems a tedious bore, but as I said before, I think going through the process not only initially familiarizes you with just what colors are in the huge box, but it also lets you "feel" the differences that are inherent EVEN AMONG STICKS OF DIFFERENT COLOR WITHIN A SET FROM A SINGLE BRAND. Some sticks simply have different texture and properties when laid down on paper that you cannot communicate in any color chart! It is sometimes surprising how different sticks perform from the same set!

Is this something that you have observed also??

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

tubbekans
03-10-2008, 05:44 PM
That's a good idea making a color chart with the numbers. I like the idea of pictures too Bill. I just ordered the 120 piece set of Sennelier's from Dakota Pastel's so I am going to make a chart and probably take pictures as well once they arrive. Dakota Pastels gave me a price match deal on another company that was having a sale, so that was nice. This is the first time I ordered from them too, got a real nice discount. Bill, I usually take my pictures with a little bit of plain white showing so I can use Adobe Elements to correct the color. Elements has an option to "remove color cast" which autocorrects based on a region of white, black or gray in the image. Black BG would work fine too I think, I just haven't tried it with black.

Pat, maybe it would be confusing doing the same MOM as the oilies.

Scarefishcrow
03-10-2008, 10:22 PM
That's a good idea making a color chart with the numbers. I like the idea of pictures too Bill. I just ordered the 120 piece set of Sennelier's from Dakota Pastel's so I am going to make a chart and probably take pictures as well once they arrive. Dakota Pastels gave me a price match deal on another company that was having a sale, so that was nice. This is the first time I ordered from them too, got a real nice discount. Bill, I usually take my pictures with a little bit of plain white showing so I can use Adobe Elements to correct the color. Elements has an option to "remove color cast" which autocorrects based on a region of white, black or gray in the image. Black BG would work fine too I think, I just haven't tried it with black.

Pat, maybe it would be confusing doing the same MOM as the oilies.

Bob, I couldn't agree more. I think photographic charts would be a useful reference but if you are serious it is worth the time to take your new set, print out (preferably an accurate) color chart with spaces and fill in your own swatches. You are absolutely correct in that assessment and I also would encourage anyone to do the same.

Paul, that would be wonderful since my 120 set of Senns have been used and it would be really great to get photo charts of a new set. I'm going to try to do this whenever I get a new set. I also think I will do it for the NeoArt and NeoColor II watersoluble wax pastels.

Let me know when you get your set and take some photos and perhaps we could come up with a common "template" of how to display them. Perhaps setting up albums in the Ref Lib might be the best way since you dont want to put so many on an image you lose the information on the label.

Sound like a plan you might be interest in? I think it would be nice to have color charts like this (I also like to make a desaturated copy to show how the colors read as values, as well) in the Ref Lib for everyone to refer to whether they have full sets or not. I was actually quite surprised how well the hand made chart I did matched with the same sticks illustrated in the printable charts on Senneliers site, though. The problem is with charts like the one Ed ran across, there were some obvious and glaring errors so standard charts would be a nice reference.

Let me know what you think.

Bill:music: :heart: :music:

tubbekans
03-11-2008, 12:19 AM
Hi Nico,
Sorry, we seem to have hijacked your thread. I can't give advice on the Senneleir colors to use, but maybe after I get my set. I am pretty new to actually using OP so you might be better off making your own choices. I wouldn't mind doing the Girl with the Pearl Ear-ring painting also. I think Clare Danes played her part in the movie. Nice movie!

Bill, sounds like a plan. The ref library is a possible place, but maybe the OP forum would be a better location in the long run for pics of colors? We would need to label them with the year and lot number also as they could change colors/formulas at any time the maker decides. We could start a new thread in the talk forum and on the pics and color charts, it might take a while to get them done.

Scarefishcrow
03-11-2008, 01:44 AM
Sorry Nico,

We were trying to help by providing the best color charts we could of the Senneliers so you could try and match the color analysis with the appropriate Senneliers. These are choices that the individual artist is best at making. It is not an easy task and will take considerable time if you wish to match the colors exactly. In this month's Artist's Magazine there is an article that might interest you that deals with how to match the pallettes of various artistis including Rembrandt and Chardin!

I will start a new thread to carry our discussion of color charts further so we don't hijack your thread. I think we all thought we were being helpful and I am certainly sorry if we frustrated you.

My sincere apologies.

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Pat Isaac
03-11-2008, 07:55 AM
hi all,
Im moving some of this discussion to a new thread so you can continue here.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-11-2008, 02:00 PM
Thanks, Pat.

I certainly didn't mean to frustrate Nico, I thought getting accurate color charts would assist him. Sorry for any inconvenience!

:o :o :( :eek:
:music: :heart: :music:

AnnieA
03-11-2008, 02:20 PM
Pat: Thanks for starting off a new OP Color Chart thread, which is probably a useful thing for all of us to have to refer to.

Bill: Just having the mfg's brochure and the color swatch chart I make on my own is sufficient for my needs. For me, photographs would be overkill. Why spend all that time with photographing and color correcting, etc., when a chart with swatches will show all one needs to know? But that's me. As a biologist, I imagine you enjoy the tasks of identifying and categorizing, and there may be advantages to doing so that I just don't see, although I have some of the categorizing bug myself. OTOH, when there isn't a complete brochure available, it may make more sense to photograph, and it also might be a quick way to record the C.I. numbers for each OP before they are rubbed off by use.

Since we now have a separate thread for color charts, I'll go ahead and take some pics of the new Senn brochure, and my corresponding color swatch chart. I'll try to post them later today or tomorrow.

Maybe someone else could post the charts in the Caran d'ache pdf brochure, although since it's available for download to everyone, maybe that's not actually necessary. Here's the link, in case anyone has missed it: http://www.carandache.ch/_img/PDF_Fineart/en_spa/Depl_tech%20NEOPAS.pdf
It's a useful brochure which includes the C.I. number(s) for each OP and also illustrates some OP painting techniques.

Scarefishcrow
03-11-2008, 02:46 PM
Actually, Annie, you are correct that for most cases the brochures are adequeate and, indeed, it may be overkill. However, you hit exactly on the reason I started and that is associating the actual color (I'm not so concerned about absolute colorimetric correction, myself) with all the CI data, generic color name, mfg. stick ##, and lightfastness rating. Plus, sometimes manufacturers posted brochures are out of date as I found with the Senns.

You are probably correct in that a bit of it is the trained biologist in me; particularly since my background was in systematics, evolution and associated with museum's and collection curation.

As Bob has pointed out and I have tried to emphasize, EVERYONE would probably benefit by making their own color chart with a new set of OP's because of the slight change in luminosity with application, vs. a dense stick, and, IMHO, more importantly it familiarizes you with the unique characteristcs of feel and how the OP lays down (smoothly vs. clumpy). I've been surprised at the variation in charactristics of different color sticks from the same set. These are things that come into play in deciding what result you are hoping to obtain.

Plus, I think it would be nice to have examples of what the various colors look like in stick form when new and applied form. I also like to desaturate the images as well because I find translating color into values is challenging for me!

Besides, I need something to tell my wife I've been doing while she's at work so my "honey do" list doesn't keep growing!!! You won't tell on me, will you???

Bill

AnnieA
03-14-2008, 12:31 PM
I hunted down a link to the Holbein OP list that includes the color index names and numbers for each OP. It's available as a downloadable pdf here: http://www.holbeinhk.com/pdf/complet_pg75-107.pdf This may be helpful to some, because the only Holbein "color chart" I know of consists only of photos of their OPs. Knowing the pigments may help in making color choices. Here's a link to that site that offers the online photographic reproduction of a full Holbein set (the old one, with all the intermediate tints shown): http://www.artxpress.com/commerce/ca...=1156277437153 (http://www.artxpress.com/commerce/ca...=1156277437153) It looks like a pretty good reproduction to me, but I have only a few Holbeins, so maybe someone else could comment. The new sets contain the first, third and fifth OPs in any color group.

Also, some may be interested in this: Dakota Pastels offers a binder for recording color info: http://www.dakotapastels.com/index_colorcharts.shtml I made a similar sort of binder for recording my soft pastel colors, using clear plastic slide sleeves (they had the binder ring holes in them already), but I'm not certain that would work for OPs as it might get messy. Dakota also offers hand-made color charts (for a fee) for their soft pastel lines, so maybe they'd do a special order if someone wanted one for OPs.

__________________

Scarefishcrow
03-14-2008, 12:37 PM
Thanks, Annie!

Scarefishcrow
03-25-2008, 12:44 PM
Here's a link to a pdf of a color chart for Talen's Van Gogh line of Oil Pastels:

http://www.talens.com/uploads/products/%7B04AF58E2-1B16-4192-8A52-532E8E9B704E%7D_C_GBR.pdf

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Scarefishcrow
03-27-2008, 01:45 AM
Attached are digital photo color charts of actual sticks in the Erengi ArtAspirer Full Set.

The ArtAspirers are round, about the size and diameter of NeoPastels and with similar working charactertistics to NeoPastels. The are probably just slightly firmer than the NeoPs and perhaps not quite as creamy. But I find them quite useful and all colors EXCEPT FLUORESCENT are lightfast.

Attached are images of the actual individual sticks taken when I received my new set.

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Pat Isaac
03-27-2008, 08:59 AM
Thanks, Bill. Looks like a nice range of colors. I notice that they even have a couple of the nice greys that I love in the Sennelier sets.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
03-27-2008, 10:22 AM
Actually, I have been very surprised at how much I like these. I'm not saying they are the same as NeoPastels, but their shape and size are almost identical and they are definitely moister than the Specialists (not that I don't like to use Specialists for certain things). I think I would have to say IMHO these are the best economical compromise for those on a budget. They list the pigments used and all have +++ lightfast except for the fluorescents which they clearly state are fugitive.

I know I harp on this, but the shape, size and firmess allows use of a large openning manual sharpener to attain as fine a point as you wish. With a light touch this can be excellent for detailing and line work if you don't have or wish to use Oil Pencils.

As long as they are available for about $70 for the full set, I think they are a real bargain if you are on a tight budget!

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

AnnieA
03-28-2008, 12:54 AM
Attached are digital photo color charts of actual sticks in the Erengi ArtAspirer Full Set.

The ArtAspirers are round, about the size and diameter of NeoPastels and with similar working charactertistics to NeoPastels. The are probably just slightly firmer than the NeoPs and perhaps not quite as creamy. But I find them quite useful and all colors EXCEPT FLUORESCENT are lightfast. Thanks for the photo and the info, Bill. I'll ask my questions here rather than in the other thread. It appears that there are a few very pale tints (light value). The following numbers, in particular, look very light:
7-102 Cadmium Lemon Pale Hue
2200 Flesh
7-605 Fresh Green Pale
2020 Ice Green
3100 Jaune Brilliant
2100 Jaune Brilliant Pale
0320 Lilac
4100 Naples Yellow (2)
3000 Naples Yellow Pale
0400 Rose Pink Pale
2400 Salmon Pink (2)
6010 Spring Green
(OK, a few of those aren't the lightest imaginable, but they're still pretty light)

Are these really as light as they appear in the photo, Bill? How does the Flesh OP, for instance, compare with the Flesh OP in the Sennelier line?

It also looks like there are some fairly dark tones as well. And it's great that for a few (too few!) of their colors they offer one or more tints of the same hue. I wish more manufacturers would do that - it's what people who want to paint more directly without much mixing really need.

From what you have said about them here and elsewhere, these might be a terrific way to round out an OP set without spending a huge amount of money. Again, thanks very much for posting this.

Scarefishcrow
03-28-2008, 04:35 PM
Annie,

I am including a hand colored chart with all the colors you mentioned, plus others for comparison. I didn't have my senns handy, but I matched and colored in adjacent blocks for comparable Specialists and where I could reasonably match a likely "Color Name", Holbeins and NeoPastels so you can see how they compare to something you may have experience with. As soon as I can I will try to add to this comparative chart as best I can matching Senns. I had been planning to do something like this so people could see side by side comparisons and similarities and variations in "color names" (most dramatically shown here in the much darker value NeoPastel Lilac than the others).


I hope this proves useful and if you have any other questions just let me know.

Do you think that a side by side comparison like this is useful??

Keep well.

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

AnnieA
03-28-2008, 05:09 PM
Hey, very cool idea, Bill. It's great to see the comparisons between brands. It appears, as I think Pat mentioned some time ago, that Art Aspirers are aiming for the Specialist market, since the names are apparently exactly the same.

That's the only place that I think you might run into difficulties with your idea for this type of chart - the other brands may use different names for essentially the same hues. I happen to agree with Michael Wilcox's idea that we'd all be a lot better off using only the pigment names. But that might be difficult when OPs are made with a mixture of more than one pigment, as they frequently are. (And I also have to admit that there's something seductive about beautiful color names as well.) So making up a chart like this with the rest of the brands might not be so easy, although taking a stab at it certainly is useful.

After all this work that you did, I almost don't have the heart to tell you that I work almost exclusively with Senns. :p Still, even without Senn samples for comparison, this info is very helpful. Thanks! :)

Scarefishcrow
03-28-2008, 07:37 PM
Oh, Annie. I was going to do this sometime anyway, so don't feel bad! Right now, though, I have a couple of wisecrackers in the landscape thread that are spoiling for a battle of wits!!!!! (At least one of them is rather poorly armed, I won't say who but he serves blue wine at his shows and his name is Paul), because that would be in very poor taste and not the sort of thing I would stoop to!!

So off to the sunlit, rocklined pathway in the woods for a rest on a sunny spot of grass just outside Pat's comfort zone! :evil:

Y'all have a nice day, now, ya' hear!

Bill
:music: :heart: :music:

Scarefishcrow
08-07-2008, 06:09 PM
I am posting handmade color charts of the Kama Pigments Extra Greasy Oil Pastels with as much information I have on them regarding Pigments. Some did not scan as well as I hoped but it should give you an idea of the color selection and density.

Hope you find these useful.

Bill:thumbsup:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Aug-2008/108067-1a.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Aug-2008/108067-1b.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Aug-2008/108067-2a.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Aug-2008/108067-2b.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Aug-2008/108067-3a.jpg

Pat Isaac
08-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Thanks, Bill. I hadn't done that with my greasies yet. I'll just print yours out. I don't have all those colors yet either.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
08-08-2008, 04:37 PM
Thanks, Bill. I hadn't done that with my greasies yet. I'll just print yours out. I don't have all those colors yet either.

Pat

He seems to have a real bias toward those lovely "earth tones", don't you think, Pat??:evil: :evil:

This was done on sheets of Daler Rowney Acrylic Paper and in some cases the OP did not adhere as well as I thought it should (not grippy). So these may tend to be biased a little toward the lighter side of the real intensity.

They are heavily pigmented, for sure. I have all their oil sticks and will make the same for them soon.

Bill:thumbsup:

P.S., there's and idea for the futre, a demonstration of how to use Oil Sticks for creating underpaintings for OP???? File it away!

Pat Isaac
08-08-2008, 04:47 PM
Okey dokey...its filed away. I LOVE earth tones.....it was the workshop instructor that said she didn't use earth tones. However, I did mix a bunch of them without any....:rolleyes: One of my fav colors is missing from the greasies, but I can live with it. No ultramarine blue.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
08-08-2008, 04:49 PM
Okey dokey...its filed away. I LOVE earth tones.....it was the workshop instructor that said she didn't use earth tones. However, I did mix a bunch of them without any....:rolleyes: One of my fav colors is missing from the greasies, but I can live with it. No ultramarine blue.

Pat

Hmmm. I'm sure they have UMB in oil stick. Maybe I overlooked one. I'll recheck.

I know you like earth tones! I'm just jerking your chain, as they say!!:lol:

One of my favs is missing too, BURNT SIENNA.

Bill:thumbsup:

Peiwend
08-08-2008, 10:47 PM
I recently bought a new book called "Multi-Brand Color Chart for Pastels" by Marie Meyer at www.huechroval.com (http://www.huechroval.com) . She has analyzed over 5500 different soft pastels and groups them in colour charts according to hue, chroma, and value. There are also coverage rankings.

The reason I am mentioning this here is because she says that oil pastels will be covered in a separate supplement. There may also be another supplement for papers.

By the way, Huechroval is a Wet Canvas sponsor and it's worthwhile to check it out.

_______________________Wendell

Scarefishcrow
08-08-2008, 11:08 PM
I recently bought a new book called "Multi-Brand Color Chart for Pastels" by Marie Meyer at www.huechroval.com (http://www.huechroval.com) . She has analyzed over 5500 different soft pastels and groups them in colour charts according to hue, chroma, and value. There are also coverage rankings.

The reason I am mentioning this here is because she says that oil pastels will be covered in a separate supplement. There may also be another supplement for papers.

By the way, Huechroval is a Wet Canvas sponsor and it's worthwhile to check it out.

_______________________Wendell

Wendell, Thanks for the link and pointing this out. That would be wonderful if she comes out with such a work. I am not familiar with that site but will certainly check it out.

I just picked up a copy of Bill Creevy's book on Pastels and he has considerable information on OP and Oil Stick. Unfortunately, like Ken Leslie's book it was published originally in 1991 and released in paperback 1999, so some of the material and brand info are dated.

I find it curious that in the 1990's there were a spate (small though it be) of books dealing with Oil Pastels in a positive manner. It seems with the exception John Elliott's book, virtually nothing contemporary is in print.

Ohe wonders why OP began to have at least a small groundswell of support among artists, including pastelists like Creevy, but suddenly seemed to have dried up. Is this a fair assessment in your opinion, Wendell. Any idea why interest (at least press) seemed to decline so rapidly??

Bill:thumbsup:

Scarefishcrow
08-08-2008, 11:14 PM
The reason I am mentioning this here is because she says that oil pastels will be covered in a separate supplement. There may also be another supplement for papers.


_______________________Wendell

Wendell, does she say this in the publication itself?? I looked at the site and found mention of supplements to cover papers, pastel pencils and pan pastels, but no mention of Oil Pastel; so I was wondering if that was something that came from the book rather than the site.

Thanks,
Bill:thumbsup:

Peiwend
08-08-2008, 11:31 PM
Bill, it was in the early nineties that I bought a lot of oil pastels but never really got around to using them. At that time, oil pastels were used a lot by illustrators and art directors. I guess that with computers, etc. the market for illustrations has somewhat dried up. Most illustrations now are probably computer generated.

I was an art director for a while in the eighties when a Polaroid camera was considered hi-tech and a colour photocopy was utterly amazing! I was simply astounded when I sent my first sketch by fax!

_____________________________Wendell

Peiwend
08-08-2008, 11:35 PM
Bill, we cross posted but you are right. It is at the bottom of page 10 in the book. Perhaps you could email her at the address under "About us" on the website.

_________________________________Wendell

Scarefishcrow
08-08-2008, 11:57 PM
Bill, we cross posted but you are right. It is at the bottom of page 10 in the book. Perhaps you could email her at the address under "About us" on the website.

_________________________________Wendell

Thanks, Wendell, I just wanted to make sure I hadn't overlooked it somehow.

Bill:thumbsup:

Pat Isaac
08-09-2008, 07:48 AM
Thanks Wendell for all that information. That is actually when I really got into oil pastels. Craypas had come out with a more pro brand in square sticks and I ordered them for my high school students as well as some oil sticks. I also ordered Leslie's book. I always experimented with the materials that I introduced to the students and that's where I started.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
08-19-2008, 07:55 PM
The following are photo and hand colored color charts for Cretacolor Aquastic OP (watersoluble).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-set.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-P8150091.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-P8150098.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-P8150101.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-P8150106.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-P8150111.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-P8150116.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-P8150121.jpg

Hope you find these useful.

Bill:thumbsup:

Scarefishcrow
08-19-2008, 08:00 PM
The following are photo and handcolored color charts for Cretacolor Aquabric blocks (watersoluble):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-asset.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-chart.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-left.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-right.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-First01.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-last.jpg

Hope you find these useful.

Bill:thumbsup:

Scarefishcrow
08-19-2008, 08:03 PM
The following are photo and handcolored color charts for Lyra Aquacolor watersoluble crayons:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-s1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-s2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-s3.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-01.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-02.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-03.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Aug-2008/108067-04.jpg

Hope you find these useful.
Bill:thumbsup:

TBond
08-19-2008, 09:06 PM
Oh my... Bill you are such a teaser!!! I just loooove looking at neatly arranged colours... You've done so much work!!! Thank you!

Scarefishcrow
08-19-2008, 09:14 PM
Oh my... Bill you are such a teaser!!! I just loooove looking at neatly arranged colours... You've done so much work!!! Thank you!

It helps me get in the habit of making color charts when I get new materials as it can really help later on when you are trying to figure out what color you need.

Glad you like them.

Bill:thumbsup:

TBond
08-19-2008, 09:59 PM
Bill, when are you opening your oil pastel supplies shop LOL:)?

Pat Isaac
08-20-2008, 08:12 AM
:lol: :lol: Tanya. Thanks for those charts, Bill. I too love looking at all those neatly arranged colors....Are the bricks the same as the sticks only in block form?


Pat

Scarefishcrow
08-20-2008, 09:51 AM
:lol: :lol: Tanya. Thanks for those charts, Bill. I too love looking at all those neatly arranged colors....Are the bricks the same as the sticks only in block form?


Pat

Actually, the literature seemed a bit obscure on that. It is referred to as "watercolor" blocks, but they are not typical watercolor and can be used to draw or as large "pans" of watercolor. I suspect they are similar, but it is not clear to me.

This is the problem I'm finding is that there is a real blurring of the traditional view of OP. I think the aquastic is closer to "Oil Pastel" and is labeled as such and behaves as such. Lyra aquacolor was crayons are even more obscure on what they are, but they behave similar to aquastic and that is what I did the latest study of cone flower in.

I'm supposed to get my La Grande's tomorrow and I can't wait to see them. I'm hoping their large size will make it easier to pick up color with my color shapers. Love that pic of you in the article about your artist coop with all those Grandes between your fingers.:lol:

Bill!

Pat Isaac
08-20-2008, 10:00 AM
I love my La Grandes. They are great for larger areas of color. The photographer put those between my fingers.....he was photographing everyone with their tools....
Thanks for the info, Bill. i wonder if they are more like watercolor than OP.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
09-07-2008, 06:27 PM
This is a series of swatches of the Aquabric used with water and brush.

The first of each pair of swatches were with a very wet brush, the second relatively little water for dark tones:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-cs1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-cs1d.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-CS2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-cs2d.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-CS3.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-cs3d.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-cs4.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-cs4d.jpg


Bill:thumbsup:

Scarefishcrow
09-07-2008, 06:44 PM
These are also images of Aquabric used with water and brush.
Each set of images represents a sequence of horizontal color stripes laid down and allowed to dry, then vertical swatches overlaid using each of the 20 colors.
The vertical stripes are in the same sequence as the separate color swatches in the previous post, except white was placed last after black.

This was repeated until all the colors had been laid down as horizontal swatches crossed by vertical swatches showing all possible combinations. Sequence of horizontal swatches follows same sequence as vertical swatches:

For next 3 images, horizontal stripes are:
Yellow Light
Yellow Cadmium
Yellow Dark
Orange
Vermillion Dark
Carmine Extra Fine
Magenta
Mars Violet

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW11.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW12.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW13.jpg

Nest 3 images horizontal stripes are:
Prussian Blue
Indigo
Sky Blue
Turquoise
Light Green
Emerald Green
Olive Green

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW21.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW22.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW23.jpg

Next 3 images horizontal stripes are:
Ochre
Sienna
Umber
Black
White

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW31.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW32.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Sep-2008/108067-SW33.jpg


Bill:thumbsup:

Scarefishcrow
09-07-2008, 06:52 PM
While the Cretacolor Aquabrics in the following two posts are treated with watercolor techniques here, they are waxy blocks similar to the Aquastics and can also be used dry to block in color like "blocklike" Aquastics. They are extremely densely pigmented and a wet brush rubbed into the bric will deposit a deep mass of color. Or they can create thin washes. They seem to make a very good medium for creating an underpainting that when dry can serve as a colored ground for layering traditional OP over, even allowing some of the underpainting to show through if you wish.

They behave much like huge pans of watercolor, but their density and texture is unlike any pans of watercolor I have used and they are somewhat of a hybrid between watercolor and wax/oil pastel.

Hope some of you may find this usefull. Color charts of the Aquabric applied in a dry fashion may be found in earlier posts in this thread.

Bill:thumbsup:

Pat Isaac
09-07-2008, 06:58 PM
Thanks, Bill for all these swatches. I really do tend to think they are more like watercolor than OPs but you make a good point for underpainting with them.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
09-07-2008, 07:27 PM
Thanks, Bill for all these swatches. I really do tend to think they are more like watercolor than OPs but you make a good point for underpainting with them.

Pat

I tend to agree that they are more wc than op, but it is an incredibly dense and richly pigmented material and I really got them to try and figure out exactly where they fall. The lines between crayon, op, egop, oil bar, oil stick, wax pastels, etc. makes it useful to try and document what these prodcuts are and how they behave since people often ask about them.

I am coveting your GIFS!!!:envy:

Bill

truck driver
09-13-2008, 09:10 AM
wow why hadnt i come into this section b4 awesome work bill

Scarefishcrow
09-13-2008, 11:44 AM
wow why hadnt i come into this section b4 awesome work bill

Thanks, RG. I still have some that I haven't posted yet. My goal has been to try and get a record of digital images of the sticks themselves and hand drawn color charts for all the brands I have. It is an ongoing project.

Bill:thumbsup:

mysurface
09-24-2008, 09:29 AM
Hi Bill

This is Buncho Oil Pastel which made in Korea. They are definitely not an artist quality OP, but their color is very striking. This OP is really very dusty, and it is so hard to blend. You hardly can apply white on top of any colors.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2008/155060-buncho.JPG

That is not meant to compare, but I just wanna show you, what I have for my first box of OP. Wish one day I could own an artist quality OP.

Ong.

Pat Isaac
09-24-2008, 09:37 AM
It's true, Ong that the set does have a nice range of colors and some nice neutrals. It can be frustrating when they don't blend the way you want, but I think you are doing a good job with them.
If you have the opportunity you might buy a few sticks at a time in open stock.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
10-18-2008, 09:03 PM
Here are some temporary color charts of the 96 set Caran D'Ache NeoPastel Set: (Will try to post cleaned up versions with better labels later)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-colorcorrect.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-ch2.jpg

Scarefishcrow
10-18-2008, 09:24 PM
Here are hand colored charts of the Sennelier colors:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-11_resize.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-12.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-13_resize.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-14_resize.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-15_resize.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-16_resize.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-17_resize.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-18_resize.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-19_resize.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-20_resize.jpg

And photo of full set:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2008/108067-box.jpg

robertsloan2
10-19-2008, 02:14 PM
Oh cool, this thread isn't locked. I didn't realize there was a thread just for color charts. Here's a chart I made for my 24 Mont Marte oil pastels. These are student grade Australian oil pastels that an Australian friend sent me as a get-well present after surgery. I loved their colors, but had some trouble with crumbling and control when I settled into doing the chart. I did a small piece with them and had some serious problems. They are slightly hard compared to other inexpensive oil pastels I've used in the past.

413088

I also have a set of Loew-Cornell Aqua Crayon Sticks in a hinged-lid tin. I bought these on clearance at Blick and seen them elsewhere but not in a set of 30. They were more expensive than L-C oil pastels even on Clearance and I suspect they are at least good student quality, but I'll find out when I test them and make my chart.

Thanks for charting the Cretacolor Aqua Briques. I was tempted by those but didn't know what they'd be like and whether they'd be redundant with my Aqua Monolith woodless watercolor pencils.

I also have a set of 24 Portfolio watersoluble oil pastels. These are very soft and using them dry, are pretty good oil pastels. I'll chart those too if anyone's interested. The sticks are huge on the Portfolios.

robertsloan2
11-14-2008, 03:36 PM
I'm adding this color chart of the 50 color Erengi Art Aspirer set so that people contemplating getting that set can see what colors are included and which ones aren't.

416194

There are three metallics -- a very bright shining yellow-gold, a bronzy dark metallic and a good silver. There are no fluorescents. The little yellow streak at the bottom right of each color swatch is my testing Senneliers over them to see if they mix or glaze -- the Senneliers don't seem to move them around much, which is useful to know.

Scarefishcrow
11-14-2008, 09:56 PM
Thanks, Robert. This is a nice supplement to my photo one.

Bill

robertsloan2
11-14-2008, 10:37 PM
Thanks! Then when my big set arrives I'll do another one -- and write out the color names under it like you did with the Neopastels chart.

robertsloan2
11-19-2008, 10:55 PM
Well, I forgot to write out the color names, but I did chart my new 92 color set and marked the color number under each one. It went to two pages in my A5 sketchbook.

robertsloan2
11-19-2008, 10:59 PM
Well, I forgot to write out the color names, but I did chart my new 92 color set and marked the color number under each one. It went to two pages in my A5 sketchbook.

416923

The upper tray of colors on one page...

416925

The lower tray, including the white over a streak of black pen to test how opaque it is. The fluorescents aren't true to color, the last bright green isn't bluish green but very strong fluorescent yellow-green.

I also made grayscale versions of the scans to see the range of tints in this set. I was delighted with the variety of values, especially within hue groups so when I'm doing things in light and shadow I can connect and unify those hues.

416924

Upper tray grayscale

416926

Lower tray grayscale

robertsloan2
12-05-2008, 12:09 AM
Cretacolor AquaStic both dry and wet, with color name and number under each sample. The right side of each patch has been washed, showing that there is a slight difference per color in how completely they dissolve and how strong they are as wet effects. Light colors seem to go very light, but some of the metallics are surprisingly strong and rich colored when washed.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2008/70184-AquaSticTop.jpg

Top tray on one sheet. Two missing colors have spaces marked, one from each tray. I'll rescan these charts when I get the replacement colors from Jerry's Artarama.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2008/70184-AquaSticBottom.jpg

My scans have color intensified by 50% and are darkened two notches but I didn't try to alter the hue in either direction -- it's a tough call because if I got the greens true the yellows would vanish or turn green. But they came out surprisingly close, these AquaStic colors do scan fairly true. Yellows are clearer and brighter than they show on the scan. Ivory is a good clean yellow tint, very light yellow tint.

hoakley
01-02-2009, 12:51 PM
I have now posted a complete (well, still missing colour number 235) set of the 120 Sennelier OPs to my website. This is available in a handy Numbers spreadsheet, for those with access to a Mac and that application. This is very useful as it contains scanned colour samples for each of the OPs, can be sorted, etc. However for those without such delights, there is also the complete spreadsheet in PDF format, which you can only view and cannot sort. These are available now at http://www.ehnoakley.com/Art.html

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-02-2009, 01:05 PM
I have now posted a complete (well, still missing colour number 235) set of the 120 Sennelier OPs to my website. This is available in a handy Numbers spreadsheet, for those with access to a Mac and that application. This is very useful as it contains scanned colour samples for each of the OPs, can be sorted, etc. However for those without such delights, there is also the complete spreadsheet in PDF format, which you can only view and cannot sort. These are available now at http://www.ehnoakley.com/Art.html

Howard.

Howard,

Thanks for the contribution and link.

Bill

Pat Isaac
01-02-2009, 04:25 PM
Thanks, Howard for the link. I went to your website and opened numbers. What a great chart and the colors are quite exact.
I was also intrigued by your Isle of Wight images. While I was still teaching a group of high school students(some art students and some history students) went there on an archeological dig there for 2 weeks. The pictures they brought back were fascinating. Great opportunity and I would have loved being there.

Pat

robertsloan2
01-02-2009, 04:26 PM
I have now posted a complete (well, still missing colour number 235) set of the 120 Sennelier OPs to my website. This is available in a handy Numbers spreadsheet, for those with access to a Mac and that application. This is very useful as it contains scanned colour samples for each of the OPs, can be sorted, etc. However for those without such delights, there is also the complete spreadsheet in PDF format, which you can only view and cannot sort. These are available now at http://www.ehnoakley.com/Art.html

Howard.

Thanks for that well organized PDF chart. It puts all the information in one place in a good way. I wound up spotting a lot of the colors I have and like best, and was able to see your scan came very close to the true colors.

hoakley
01-04-2009, 05:36 PM
I have now added to that page 2 more downloadables - the equivalent Numbers spreadsheet and PDF version of the complete Sennelier Oil Stick line, all 55 colours. In this case, I do not yet have my own colour samples of each (for a start, I have the 36-stick boxed set, so am already 19 short), so have sampled from the official colour chart. However it also lists which of the 55 ship as standard in the boxed set, so anyone tempted to buy that might find this a useful planning tool.

Those familiar with Sennelier's OPs will be amazed to find not a single proper grey among the oil stick range, but the Ivory Black is really intense.

Robert - I'm sorry, this will really confuse you in your choice of W&N oil bars!

Howard.

robertsloan2
01-04-2009, 09:06 PM
Ever so tempting. But I think I'll still start with the W&N ones. Then try a color or two in each of the other brands and see if I use them a lot, as opposed to oil pastels.

Scarefishcrow
01-05-2009, 12:15 AM
Thanks for the additions, Howard. Problem is that Oil Sticks start getting a bit pricey after Shiva and W&N Slims.

Of course, it can always be worse. Looking in Jerry's catalog at Oil Paints and found these "Resin Oils" which would set you back $150 for two tubes of the most expensive Cobalts in the line!!! (And we are only talking 35 ml tubes, here.) Yikes, don't think I'll be painting "...with the paints of the Old Masters...." anytime soon!:eek:

You mentioned that W&N oilbars are hard to find there which seems sort of odd since they are made over there.



Bill

hoakley
01-05-2009, 01:09 PM
Yes, I am still a bit puzzled as to the rarity of W&N oilbars over here, but we have relatively few online retailers who have very extensive catalogues - most just stock the popular items, so even OPs can be quite hard to find.

The better online store that I use (Jacksons) has Sennelier OSs, regular size, at 3.25 to 5.25 each, which is not too bad. More pricey that OPs, but they are also significantly bigger sticks (38 ml).

I will await someone else trying out the 'Resin Oils' before rushing out to find them!

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-05-2009, 01:41 PM
Do you think is may be related to the overwhelming popularity of Watercolor as a medium in the UK?? In exchanging emails with Tim Fisher he said that WC seems to be what most people are interested in and other media much less. (He currently has a series starting that will run 6 months in UK Leisure Painter on OP basics.)

Bill

Yes, I am still a bit puzzled as to the rarity of W&N oilbars over here, but we have relatively few online retailers who have very extensive catalogues - most just stock the popular items, so even OPs can be quite hard to find.

The better online store that I use (Jacksons) has Sennelier OSs, regular size, at 3.25 to 5.25 each, which is not too bad. More pricey that OPs, but they are also significantly bigger sticks (38 ml).

I will await someone else trying out the 'Resin Oils' before rushing out to find them!

Howard.

hoakley
01-05-2009, 04:14 PM
Partly. I think that it has more to do with commercial practice: in the US, being one very large marketplace, you have excellent specialist retailers who succeed because of the breadth of their stock, and their willingness to please customers. Although Europe is another huge market, it is not as united as the US, and in most parts not as customer-oriented. So most retailers just offer the same popular ranges - and then wonder why their sales fall during a recession.

Although WC - and pencils - are massively popular, it is still fairly easy to get a good choice of oils. When you get down to OPs, you are in real specialist territory, and anything less common has little chance. Distributors do not help - my local shop will get most things in for me, but they have to purchase OPs in boxes of 3, so will only sell me them in boxes of 3. But they are great for boxed sets.

But if you want to see retail at its finest, shop in Japan!

I'm still not trying out those Resin Oils :lol:

Howard.

robertsloan2
01-05-2009, 04:38 PM
I think up in the price range of those Resin Oils, you need to be making thousands of dollars a painting so that it's cost effective. It would be fun to get to try them someday, if I were more into oils. This is the reason I've been leaning more toward mediums other than oils anyway. I like a large palette and the prices on oils sometimes go through the roof.

I looked at the prices of some of my favorite pigments in the Senneliers and even those were a bit daunting. That sort of thing makes a limited palette more appealing. The slim set of W&N Oilbars looked like a good deal. Shiva looked like it wasn't very pigment-rich though, based on how light the samples mixed with 50% white looked. I might try them sometime anyway though because their set is quite inexpensive.

robertsloan2
01-09-2009, 12:26 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2009/70184-DalerRowney24.jpg

Along with my Holbeins, I bought some student grade OPs to review. I charted my 24 color Daler Rowney set.

Texture is smooth and creamy even if they are a bit stiff and not as soft as artist grade, they're still decent texture. Good strong color, all colors are opaque. They are nontoxic and the packaging makes no mention of "fadeproof" or any mention of lightfastness.

There is a very slight difference between the light blue at bottom left and the light greenish blue at bottom right. It's not much, not even a full value step, but it is there -- half a value lighter and half a step greener, like this is between light blue and aqua.

Scarefishcrow
01-09-2009, 11:18 AM
I'm still not trying out those Resin Oils :lol:

Howard.

Well, for the faint of heart, such as you, Howard, we have BLOCKXwhich offers more affordable paint (no more than $70/tube) and provides the amber resin as a separate optional medium in 10ml ($144), 25 ml ($162) or 50ml ($300) sizes as an affordable alternative!

Do you shop online?? The UK seems to have some fairly comprehensive online distributors? Probably a dumb question for someone that writes about Macs!

Bill

Barbara WC
01-09-2009, 12:55 PM
I went to the Sennelie website, http://www.sennelier.fr/en/oil_pastels.php, and they now have a color chart of the full range. It's almost impossible to see, let alone directly print, so I made cropped the color chart and saved in 3 files, shown below.

I know there are a few hand painted color Sennelier charts in this thread, but I wanted to print out the one from the Sennelier website so I can keep track of what I have and what I want to buy!

Hope these help someone:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2009/138866-pastel_huile_sennelier_chart_1_2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2009/138866-pastel_huile_sennelier_chart_2_2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2009/138866-pastel_huile_sennelier_chart_3_3.jpg



Barbara

hoakley
01-09-2009, 01:29 PM
Bill,

I shop online at Jackson's http://www.jacksonsart.co.uk/images/fp_jacksonsuk.php who have a good breadth of stock and are fairly competitive on price. But I am also very careful to buy from my local art shop when possible, so that they keep going - otherwise there would be nowhere to go and touch and feel, and get that last-minute brush or paper...

Local art stores outside of London and the large cities have a problem with stocking speciality products. They would love to keep the complete Sennelier range, but the cost would be huge, and their turnover very small. They are always happy to order in items, so I buy a few of my boxed sets from them.

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-09-2009, 01:51 PM
Bill,

I shop online at Jackson's http://www.jacksonsart.co.uk/images/fp_jacksonsuk.php who have a good breadth of stock and are fairly competitive on price. But I am also very careful to buy from my local art shop when possible, so that they keep going - otherwise there would be nowhere to go and touch and feel, and get that last-minute brush or paper...


Howard.

Unfortunately, unless you live in a big city here, and even then it can be a problem, there aren't the number of "local shops" to patronize but the big chain Art and Craft stores that only stock the big sellers.

I think it is great you take advantage of the local stores.

I take it you are probably going to pass on the Amber Resin that BLOCKX offers a a more affordable alternative to the Resin paints??:lol:

Bill

hoakley
01-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Bill,

I am sorely tempted to get a lovely Sennelier oil set, to augment my Sennelier OS work. But that must be February's goody parcel...

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-09-2009, 05:42 PM
Bill,

I am sorely tempted to get a lovely Sennelier oil set, to augment my Sennelier OS work. But that must be February's goody parcel...

Howard.

Oh come on, Howard. I can't keep the globally economy moving all by myself, can I???:lol:

Bill:evil:

robertsloan2
01-09-2009, 06:40 PM
LOL Bill and Howard. Okay, yes, there are still some art supplies that I would only take a fling on if I started getting ludicrously rich. The Blocxx amber resin is definitely one of them.

Eh, if my little site gets to where I'm earning a living on it I might celebrate by buying the smallest tube of just the amber resin and trying it as an OP thinner. It would be one of those things to tell the upscale collector, just mention that I'm using Sennelier OPs and Blockx amber resin to give them a lifelong painting, that sort of thing. But I'd lay odds I would have to stick to wet effects throughout or use the resin layers on the bottom, just as with regular price alkyd resin.

And if I'm doing that I might as well add 24kt gold leaf passages with amber resin varnish over them so that future archaeologists can tell "Robert was an artist with honking rich patrons."

From the ads, that resin is supposed to have supreme archival qualities. It may or may not be hype, but real amber is expensive like using real gold in paint. Why doesn't Sennelier take the real gold powder used to make shell gold and come out with an expensive but worth-it Real Gold Oil Pastel?

It would actually be pretty cool, I use the shell gold tabs from ASW in watercolors sometimes and that is much prettier and shinier than almost all gold metallic paints or watercolors. Only the Daniel Smith iridescent gold compares with it for color and brightness in a gold metallic detail. If it can be suspended in a gum arabic watercolor base, it could be mixed in with Sennelier's proprietary OP binder.

If I ever get to Paris in person and go to the shop I'll drop in and see if I can afford to have them make one just for me. At least then the expensive ingredient is visible right on the surface of the painting!

Eh, it's probably the cost, those watercolor base tabs are tiny and it's several hundred dollars for the large one. It'd have to be a very small stub of a miniature oil pastel, or on the tip of one that is mostly colorless blender so you have something to hold it by.

I bet they'd make it for me if I brought in the powdered gold though and was actually in Paris to ask them to...

Anyway, here's another student grade brand color chart. Today I charted my 48 color set of Mungyo Gallery, not the full range but the largest cardboard box range. I did not feel like spending $30 for a wood box set of 72 although the box is probably decent if you like sturdy wood boxes. From its style it would be rugged and sturdy.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2009/70184-MungyoGallery48chart.jpg

Mungyo is keen on Caucasian skin highlight tones. I counted four distinct ones, presumably for different light or complexions, way more than needed with that range of browns but not if you do a lot of portraits. It's not a bad idea for a portrait range, that way you can choose the base brown and modulate it with the right highlighter neutral per area, lighting, etc. The brights are in a balanced chromatic range with lots of oranges and inbetween hues at full strengths, a few useful tints but not a range of tints.

The texture was smooth, firm, didn't crumble too badly. I'll have to see how it performs for lightfastness but it's probably a decent student brand. I did see some demos with it and they looked good.

Darks and brights are stronger in life because I reduced contrast in order to show the light colors better.

hoakley
01-11-2009, 05:02 PM
I have just posted updated files on my website - the previous links still apply. The files now contain my latest scans (using a new scanner that has been checked to be close to accurate colour rendition) of actual patches of OS and OP across most of the Sennelier range. The Numbers spreadsheets are quite large because they contain, embedded, complete images of the colour samples that you can copy and paste elsewhere, at high resolution (1200 dpi now). I have squeezed the PDFs down so that they are more modest in size, but still give accurate colour. Note that most of the OS colours are now taken from test samples, not from the colour chart.

Howard.

robertsloan2
01-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Thanks! I can see texture in some of the patches, it's cool you were able to get them that small on the PDF.

I studied it for a good long time, then rearranged my Senneliers in chromatic order. That made it a lot easier to tell what was missing, in colors I use all the time. Obviously Bordeaux, since in colored pencils I use Tuscan Red all the time as a major darkener, but also Pat's favorite greens.

I went looking for them on the Blick site and couldn't find one of her sap greens, but when I read your PDF it was easier because you had everything with color names in number order. I didn't realize one of her "sap greens" was Pthalo Green Light, so I can order it now.

It might be redundant to get extras in some of these colors and then get the big set later on to duplicate them, but not if I start doing a lot of landscapes. I used up the greens and blues so fast in colored pencils that it was like I was eating them for breakfast.

Barbara WC
01-17-2009, 11:48 AM
I didn't know where to put this, but thought this thread is probably the best place.

I decided against buying a set of Senneliers, and instead purchase open stock. The warm colors are on the left, cool on the right. In the middle of those colors, I mixed what looked like complements. I had specifically choosen those 12 colors to fill the spaces on the 12 step tertiary color wheel. The one "hole" in the color wheel is I didn't pick a very good blue-green. However, I rarely use blue-greens in painting because I don't paint landscapes. I decided that midnight blue would suffice for now.

Also included are a few greys, and some ochre colors that I plan on using for portraits. I want to pick up a few other sticks, a couple of more greys and a couple of more ochres (like violet ochre for portraits).

also notice that on the left side of each swatch, I had placed a black line to look at how opaque or transparent a hue is, and on the right side of the swatch, I blended with white.

I hope this is helpful to someone. I found doing this a useful exercise.

Barbara

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jan-2009/138866-Sennelier_scan_color_chart.jpg

Pat Isaac
01-17-2009, 12:39 PM
Looks like a good start with the Senns, Barb. That is how I started with my Senns, bought in open stock, also my Holbeins. some of those tinted greys are nice. I often use #13 yellow gray when doing blond hair.

Pat

Barbara WC
01-17-2009, 12:43 PM
Pat- thanks for the recommendation for the yellow gray. Do you have any other recommendations for particular hues that you use more than others when doing portrait work? I picked the ones I did partly based on what came in the portrait set, but also just going to the art store and trying out the sticks on paper.

Barbara

Pat Isaac
01-17-2009, 12:46 PM
Another color I can think of right now is the #5 hue of Holbein ultramarine. It is a very nice light blue for reflective cool areas in portraits.

Pat

robertsloan2
01-17-2009, 02:04 PM
Barbara, thanks for posting a color mixing chart. I've been thinking of doing a bunch of those myself in my big sketchbook, now that I've got large areas I can work with. Reminds me of Charlie's soft pastels class palette, except for not having tints of all those hues. I think it's cool you chose the colors from the 12 color wheel, it's tempting me to do the same thing sometime at least in how I arrange them.

Scarefishcrow
01-17-2009, 02:04 PM
Barbara,

Thanks for posting the excercise in colors, blending and opacity. This is a good idea. Doing swatches over a dark line helps see the level of translucence or opacity. Some of the translucents would be good for glaze like effects.

I have just completed a color chart for the entire 225 set of holbeins along with an excel spreadsheet printout of the Munsell Hue # coded, Value (1 dark to 9 light) and the Chroma (intensity) value (0 - 20+) for each sitck in each color in the complete set. I have been playing with sorting the data by Hue, V, C, etch and it is interesting to see patters in graphs of, e.g., how the value range and chroma range changes in a predictable pattern with various hue families or by numbering each of the 225 sticks then ploting the Chroma and Value of each stick you see the pattern of how the 5 stick sets vary in some predictable ways (e.g., within each 5 stick set Value increases from stick 1-5 and Chroma is almost always inversely correlated showing a decrease as value goes up.

It also is interesting to compare the distribution of Hue value and family vs. the various sets of 5 sticks to see what hues are well represented and which aren't.

Generally each color family is represented by a fairly narrow range of values that has a range of about 4 values represented for each hue family and that range moving up or down the value scale depending on which hue family you look at.


As soon as I get good scans of the color data I will post a complete color chart and would be glad to do blends of any colors and opacity sheets such as yours for any of the colors that you might like more info on!
:wave:
Bill

Barbara WC
01-17-2009, 04:23 PM
Bill-

Wow! What an undertaking with the Holbeins, with the full set even! I can't wait to see the color chart and supporting data for the Holbeins. Where did you get the Munsell data for the Holbeins? I seem to remember you said something about getting it from the Holbein website, but my memory isn't that great!

It would be cool to have that data for all the major brands. I know you, Wendell and Robert have been talking about scanning brands in and doing colorimetric studies. That should be interesting.

Barbara

Pat Isaac
01-17-2009, 04:28 PM
Looking forward to seeing that, Bill.

Pat

Scarefishcrow
01-17-2009, 07:18 PM
Bill-

Wow! What an undertaking with the Holbeins, with the full set even! I can't wait to see the color chart and supporting data for the Holbeins. Where did you get the Munsell data for the Holbeins? I seem to remember you said something about getting it from the Holbein website, but my memory isn't that great!

It would be cool to have that data for all the major brands. I know you, Wendell and Robert have been talking about scanning brands in and doing colorimetric studies. That should be interesting.

Barbara

Yes, that's really the thing that interests me more than the giclee stuff, finding an affordable way to actually measure the Hue, Value and Chroma of color swatche from the OPs.

I know the old hands will say that you learn that via experience, but some of us don't have our whole life ahead of us when we start up so I'll take any training wheels I can get to get me up to speed. I just felt like I had a much greater understanding of color in general after going through that exercise with the Holbeins and trying to make sense of it.

I mean, we talk about Yellows. Well, one 5 stick set of something Yellow might actually contain some true Y and some RY or maybe some Y and GY. Lots of the Reds contain hues that are actually RP.

And the whole issue of chroma. I find it hard enough (even squinting) to accurately assess colors as values. But try determining chroma (intensity)! Good luck. You pretty much really have to study the color space and develop a general understanding that Yellows, e.g. are always going to be high value and drop rapidly in chroma as you lower the value and never be able to generate values below 5 give or take. P, PB and RP are almost the direc opposite. Very high chrom range and lots of possibilities in the low value range but get much above value 5 and they rapidly extinguish. Each hue family has a chaaracteristic distribution patern and level possible combinations of chroma and value.


I'm going to redo my chart incorportating some of the things you did like a dark line to get an idea of level of opaqueness. Think about some good blends that would be interesting to try and I'll do those later.


Bill

Peiwend
01-17-2009, 09:47 PM
Sorry, Barbara, but I'm not the one who's going to be scanning oil pastels for all that technical stuff. I'm too busy painting! However it is useful to have the technical information when ordering now colours. I only scan with my eyes while painting. It's intuitive and comes from experience.

_____________________________Wendell

Scarefishcrow
01-18-2009, 01:31 PM
Sorry, Barbara, but I'm not the one who's going to be scanning oil pastels for all that technical stuff. I'm too busy painting! However it is useful to have the technical information when ordering now colours. I only scan with my eyes while painting. It's intuitive and comes from experience.

_____________________________Wendell

The thing is, Wendell, you have eyes that have had years of experience learning to discern those subtle color characteristics.

Some of us are late starters and may not have as many years available for that type of training!!

Seriously, I view such exercises as a way to ultimately help me "internalize" these things as you have done. (the Unconscious Competence level of Mastery!)

Bill:thumbsup:

Peiwend
01-18-2009, 02:10 PM
Bill, you are so lucky that you don't have me nearby, standing over you and making you gain that experience...fast! I'm sure Pat could help out with her stick.

One thing that can help is to work around the colour wheel and work with each colour for a day or a week. Try to do as many shades and tints of that colour as you can. Do many exercises using that colour in mixtures and layers with all the other colours. Do studies of the effects of light and shade on objects of that colour. Do many sketches and some paintings using predominantly that colour.

When you focus on learning one thing at a time, it's amazing how fast the intuition will come. Experience is not always measured by time.

____________________________Wendell

hoakley
01-18-2009, 02:18 PM
Bill,

You really have a choice of:
- a decent scanner, with a profile built from a standard test chart, which has much wider use but will cost overall slightly more (as you really do need software to build the scanner profile), and CT&A as below,
or
- ColorMunki, which I have just ordered for 300 plus tax, so should cost you no more than about $400. Get the Design edition, and the software will read colour values for you. You will then I suspect need a product such as BabelColor's CT&A from http://www.babelcolor.com to convert into Munsell.

Howard.

Pat Isaac
01-18-2009, 03:45 PM
Good advice Wendell...I'll keep my stick handy...:lol: Actually I had to do many of those things in art school.....wasn't my favorite thing, but I learned a lot.

Pat

robertsloan2
01-18-2009, 04:12 PM
Wendell, thanks for the tip you just gave Bill. It helped me sort out how I'm going to approach the color mixing charts I'm planning for my site -- if I start with one hue-group it'll be more manageable than doing all of them all at once. It may take me a while doing those but I know when I'm done with them that I'll be a lot better at mixing OP.

That and sometimes for me, doing small studies where a hue predominates can push me to experiment with it. I think that's where a lot of my OP is at right now -- small paintings easily finished and each one teaches me something about that brand and its range.

Scarefishcrow
01-18-2009, 05:56 PM
Bill, you are so lucky that you don't have me nearby, standing over you and making you gain that experience...fast! I'm sure Pat could help out with her stick.

:eek: :eek: Just the vision that conjures up frightens me! Sort of like when I was in the first grade and this gentle, kind teacher would RAP me across the knuckles with a pencil! You gotta watch those kind and gentle, soft spoken sorts. :angel: They are the ones that can sneak up and smack you in the noggin before you realize it!:lol:

One thing that can help is to work around the colour wheel and work with each colour for a day or a week. Try to do as many shades and tints of that colour as you can. Do many exercises using that colour in mixtures and layers with all the other colours. Do studies of the effects of light and shade on objects of that colour. Do many sketches and some paintings using predominantly that colour.

This is a very good suggestion, Wendell, as most (ooops, I should say ALL) of your's are when dealing with art. (Since Pat is here we won't get into other issues). That is kind of what I have been doing in a round about way, really trying to wrap my mind about the concept of color and light and not just learn cliche axioms, but really try and understand how it operates and the natural way it is organized and how its various attributes are interrelated.

You have told me things many times that eventually sink in. One thing that finally hit me like a 2x4 looking at colors more closely was that in the Challenge RI of a little girl by water, THE BLUE WATER TURNED OUT TO BE ONE OF THE HOLBEIN NON-COLORS when I actually compared it to swatches! It looks deep blue, but that is in the context of everything else surrounding it! Your chant of using neutrals to get glowing light is beginning to make sense. That doesn't mean I can suddenly paint like you, but it does mean that gaining technical skill over time will be more likely to result in pleasing work than it might otherwise.

When you focus on learning one thing at a time, it's amazing how fast the intuition will come. Experience is not always measured by time.

I know you are correct, but sometimes an obsession with something can make you impatient for mastery. Thanks for the good advice! Now if I only have the good sense to follow it (and take your fingers off the keyboard, Wendell, before you ruin this "touching" moment with a "WINGER"=Wendell Zinger).:smug:



____________________________Wendell


Bill

Scarefishcrow
01-18-2009, 06:00 PM
Bill,

You really have a choice of:
- a decent scanner, with a profile built from a standard test chart, which has much wider use but will cost overall slightly more (as you really do need software to build the scanner profile), and CT&A as below,
or
- ColorMunki, which I have just ordered for 300 plus tax, so should cost you no more than about $400. Get the Design edition, and the software will read colour values for you. You will then I suspect need a product such as BabelColor's CT&A from http://www.babelcolor.com to convert into Munsell.

Howard.

Thanks for the advice, Howard. Actually, I have a program now that will take RBG, XYZ or Lab values and convert to Munsell color space or vice versa as well as display hue charts, color tolerance charts and value plane diagrams for Munsell hues. Also have an excel spreadsheet with conversion among these values as well.

Bill

Scarefishcrow
01-18-2009, 06:02 PM
Good advice Wendell...I'll keep my stick handy...:lol:
Pat

So that's what awaits me when I follow your LIFELINE back to shore?? A sound thumping with your BIG STICK?:eek:

Enormous Sigh Smiley Here If We Had One

Bill

Pat Isaac
01-18-2009, 06:06 PM
I guess we have to invent one, Bill, a smiley, that is......I actually had a first grade teacher who rapped our knuckles with a ruler.....:eek: Not nice..

Pat

Scarefishcrow
01-18-2009, 06:10 PM
I guess we have to invent one, Bill, a smiley, that is......I actually had a first grade teacher who rapped our knuckles with a ruler.....:eek: Not nice..

Pat


:lol: I used to (still do) slouch when I sit. One day in first grade she scolded me for slouching (in one of those little chairs that would disappear if I sat on it today) and to make me sit up straight ran one of those old flimsy wooden yardsticks down my back inside my shirt.

Short time later I began to slouch and a resounding CRAAACK echoed though the room. This was followed by what seemed and eternity standing in the corner! :lol:

Ah, those memories!

Bill:thumbsup:

robertsloan2
01-18-2009, 06:20 PM
We are of the same generation, Bill. I still get flashbacks about grade school. I'm not quite sure how I survived it.

Pat Isaac
01-18-2009, 06:57 PM
Ah, we all have those memories. I even got what they called the rattan whip when I was in 8th grade because I questioned a teacher....Imagine that. In today's world the would be accused of child abuse.

Pat

robertsloan2
01-19-2009, 11:14 AM
Here's a color mixing page that I did with Senneliers -- primaries up at the top but not mixed with each other, more mixed either to shift hue or value. Then various neutrals occupying most of the rest of the page including the two pale skin tones shaded down with three earth reds and a cloudy batch of all the Sennelier grays in my set off to the right.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jan-2009/70184-SennelierMixing1.jpg

This chart's about very close mixtures and how they behave, more than about creating hues by mixing primaries.

Scarefishcrow
01-19-2009, 12:09 PM
Interesting chart, Robert. Thanks.

Bill

Scarefishcrow
01-20-2009, 02:49 PM
XPosted from NeoColor II Color Chart Thread started by Kerch:

Brian,

Could I ask you how you converted your image to grayscale?

The reason I ask is that I have discovered various programs may have grayscaling functions that differ in how the conversion is accomplished and this can result in considerably different results, especially among particular hues, such as yellows.

One way of grayscaling is to use a "Desaturation" function (although some software simply has a grayscale conversion tool that does not indicate this is how it is being done. While it converts to 256 grays, the image remains a 24-bit Truecolor image but simply removes the color information.

The other is to actually convert to an 8 or 16 bit grayscale image. The results from these two operations can produce significantly different results.

For example, I did the following pics to illustrate this and have been planning to discuss this buth haven't gotten around to it.The following is a color chart of the 96 set CD NeoPastels with first truecolor, then 16bit grayscale, then bw by desaturation:

======COLOR ============16bit Graycale=========== Desaturated

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2009/108067-01.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2009/108067-02.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2009/108067-03c.jpg

EDITED:ADDED MISSING CHARTS

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2009/108067-10.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2009/108067-102.jpg




Bill
__________________

Scarefishcrow
01-20-2009, 04:18 PM
Howard,

Perhaps with your imaging knowledge you could elaborate on the different results from performing a "desaturation" vs. "truecolor to 16 bit grayscale" conversion on scanned color charts and which would provide the most accurate "estimation" for determining approximate values of colors.

It seems to me the desaturation is really showing chroma diffences more than value differences while the grayscale conversion is probably achieving a closer approximation of the "value" scale for the color.

Is that anywhere near correct or is there (probably) something much more complicated going on?

Any wisdom you have would be very much appreciated.

Bill:thumbsup:

hoakley
01-20-2009, 06:24 PM
Bill,

If you work in straight 24-bit RGB colour for a moment, any colour has 3 values, one for red, one for green, and one for blue. There is none for grey or black. To convert to 256-level greyscale, we have to take those 3 numbers and somehow produce one.

A naive approach would be to take the average of the three, or maybe the median, and use that. For a grey (say, 50, 50, 50) that maps straight to a grey of 50, which is true. For a colour of 100, 0, 50 (a reddish purple I'd guess), that will also come out at 50 in grey. Of course the average and median will not always come to the same answer, so already we have two different mappings that will produce different results on some colours. You could also try perceptual corrections that produced a non-linear mapping, convert to a colourspace that does have a greyscale in it and then drop the colour info, and more.

So there are potentially many different ways, with slightly different results, of doing this relatively simple thing. Ideally, for a given software product, you should discover which method it uses for each route to greyscale.

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-20-2009, 08:34 PM
Howard,


Would scanning the chart initially as grayscale be any better or different or do you face the same problem there?

Bill

robertsloan2
01-20-2009, 09:15 PM
Because of a discussion on greens and mixing greens in Oil Pastel Studio on one of Xina's pieces and one of Barbara's, I was inspired to make a mixing page with my Senneliers (the handy, mixes like paint brand on top).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2009/70184-SennelierMixingGreens.jpg

This is by no means complete. I just mixed some obvious combinations on a gradient. The top grid is six strips of yellows, golds and a brown with the yellow from my sampler at the bottom. I went over it with four different blues including 214, a turquoise and 211, a very dark greenish blue. The left hand patch is the blue over a heavy application of the yellow, the right hand patch has been gone over with the yellow again for a sandwich with blue in the middle.

Then I tried a very dark green, 213, shaded up with various yellows and two earth reds. I chose a bright green to the right, 234, and shaded it lighter with three yellows. At the bottom right I tried 90, an orangy reddish brown with Midnight Blue, which resulted in a great dark green in the middle shading toward the ends.

Some of the yellow-blue mixtures came out as bright as the 213 but not as smooth naturally, being mixed they streaked and gave a painterly look. 32 was so strong and opaque it overcame 213 completely, didn't even mix, just covered it.

I think this chart shows some of the answer to getting natural greens in foliage, don't limit it to green. Using green in the mix can help but isn't always necessary, and mixing in orange, brown or red can give surprisingly cool results in some areas.

What I mislabeled as 12 should be 71, and I could not find it on the open stock list at Blick.

Scarefishcrow
01-20-2009, 09:20 PM
These are very nice to have along with the color charts, Robert. Thanks for doing them. They are a very good reference for those who want to see how the OP's blend.

Bill:thumbsup:

Because of a discussion on greens and mixing greens in Oil Pastel Studio on one of Xina's pieces and one of Barbara's, I was inspired to make a mixing page with my Senneliers (the handy, mixes like paint brand on top).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jan-2009/70184-SennelierMixingGreens.jpg

This is by no means complete. I just mixed some obvious combinations on a gradient. The top grid is six strips of yellows, golds and a brown with the yellow from my sampler at the bottom. I went over it with four different blues including 214, a turquoise and 211, a very dark greenish blue. The left hand patch is the blue over a heavy application of the yellow, the right hand patch has been gone over with the yellow again for a sandwich with blue in the middle.

Then I tried a very dark green, 213, shaded up with various yellows and two earth reds. I chose a bright green to the right, 234, and shaded it lighter with three yellows. At the bottom right I tried 90, an orangy reddish brown with Midnight Blue, which resulted in a great dark green in the middle shading toward the ends.

Some of the yellow-blue mixtures came out as bright as the 213 but not as smooth naturally, being mixed they streaked and gave a painterly look. 32 was so strong and opaque it overcame 213 completely, didn't even mix, just covered it.

I think this chart shows some of the answer to getting natural greens in foliage, don't limit it to green. Using green in the mix can help but isn't always necessary, and mixing in orange, brown or red can give surprisingly cool results in some areas.

Kerch
01-20-2009, 10:56 PM
Hi all,

Here's a chart I made of the colours in the Caran D'ache Neocolor II water soluble oil pastels 40-colour set (plus a few extra colour I bought on sale). I tried to put the colours in sequence from darkest to lightest.

I like to refer to the chart when I'm trying to determine the colour to choose. I usually know the value I want, but have to choose a colour from the limited 40 that is available.

I've also included a gray scale image of the chart.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jan-2009/35546-CaranDache40_450.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jan-2009/35546-CaranDache40_450_Gray.jpg

hoakley
01-21-2009, 12:54 PM
Bill,

It all depends what the scanner does to generate a greyscale scan. If it performs a colour scan and then converts the colour to greyscale, the problem would be the same. If it actually scans greyscale in the first place, i.e. only measures a single greyscale channel and not RGB, then it might do better. But I fancy that most scanners will do the first.

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-21-2009, 01:05 PM
Thanks Howard. Your expertise in this is very greatly appreciated and I hope you do not mind what to you may seem "dumb" questions. I have learned much from the time you joined us about color and while I understand that "color spaces" are not substitute for developing an internal understanding of color the discussions have help me see more clearly some things that I knew but did not fully grasp. Color is so essential to art and it is a complex of both physics, perceptual biology and context and not an easy thing to package in a nice simple wrapper. You have done much to strip away some of that complexity.

I wanted to say thanks.

My general impression is that the process of "desaturation" results in retention of a truecolor image simply without color information. Thus would this liikely be less accurate than actual conversiton to grayscale format or is that irrelevant?

Bill


Bill,

It all depends what the scanner does to generate a greyscale scan. If it performs a colour scan and then converts the colour to greyscale, the problem would be the same. If it actually scans greyscale in the first place, i.e. only measures a single greyscale channel and not RGB, then it might do better. But I fancy that most scanners will do the first.

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-21-2009, 01:09 PM
Brian, thanks for putting this here. I will place a companion chart of my 84 set of NeoColor II's for those wishing to see the larger set. I do not have the additional 42 colors, but hope to obtain them via open stock.

Have you ever tried their NeoArt line? They are more densely pigmented and much fatter and short like traditional OP.

Also very expernsive.

You use these about as well as anyone I have seen> Do you always use thm dry?



Bill:thumbsup:

Hi all,

Here's a chart I made of the colours in the Caran D'ache Neocolor II water soluble oil pastels 40-colour set (plus a few extra colour I bought on sale). I tried to put the colours in sequence from darkest to lightest.

I like to refer to the chart when I'm trying to determine the colour to choose. I usually know the value I want, but have to choose a colour from the limited 40 that is available.

I've also included a gray scale image of the chart.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jan-2009/35546-CaranDache40_450.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jan-2009/35546-CaranDache40_450_Gray.jpg

hoakley
01-21-2009, 02:23 PM
Bill,

These are not dumb questions, but actually incredibly important and complex.

General advice given to those wanting to convert from colour to greyscale is that desaturation functions tend to appear more true to our perception.

If you have really sophisticated software that allows you to choose the colour model used (e.g. change from RGB to L*a*b etc.) then you might do better changing to a model that considers 'greyscale' to be one of its channel variables, and then trying setting the other, colour-bearing, channels to zero colour. I suspect that most people would perceive that as a fairly faithful way to move an image to greyscale.

The snag is that most software works in RGB - in which there is no channel that is free of colour info. So the software then chooses how best to create that new greyscale channel, as discussed above.

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-21-2009, 04:12 PM
Thank you, Howard. The more I examine it, the more complex color becomes. And of course you hit (also masterfully casual) on a BIG issue...
perception. Perceptual vs. absolute colorimetric is another ball of wax entirely. And, as we generally know, the perception of hue, value and chroma are all subject to the effects of the context of the colors environment they appear in!

I found it interesting you thought desaturation closer to perception as I would have gone with grayscale conversion (speaking in terms of simple dark to light value assessment).

Bill

robertsloan2
01-21-2009, 06:04 PM
Brian, thanks for the chart on black! I'm planning on getting some Neocolor II's again in a couple of months and it's encouraging to see the results on black. I will probably order some black surfaces when I do.

Bill, could you please chart the NeoArt ones that you have, since you tried them? They sounded great but are indeed very very expensive, not on my list for a while.

Another "color in sticks" product just came out, I noticed a full page on it in my latest Daniel Smith catalog. Expensive with a short range -- $68 and change for a set of six "Watercolor Sticks" that are largish -- 1/2" diameter, 3" long -- all six colors chosen for Lightfast I good mixers. Photos showed a good purple and a good green mixing the Ultramarine respectively with Hansa Yellow and Quinacridone Coral.

I do plan to get that set while it's available at that price, it's listed as ending on April 30th and the total cost isn't so bad when the set is that small. The price per stick is ferocious, but not compared to their watercolors in tubes when I think of how pigment-dense these sticks must be. All their suggested uses involved variations of wet techniques -- dipping the stick, drawing into water, dragging a wet brush over the stick like it's a handheld watercolor pan.

DS claims it's a minimal amount of binder to hold the pigment together in stick form. That still doesn't tell me its softness, hardness, waxiness or dry blending ability though. I hope if they decide to expand the range on them that subsequent sets are additionals that don't repeat the six-color set colors, since that price per stick is ferocious.

It almost seems like they're trying to do a watercolor version of oil sticks for plein air use.

robertsloan2
01-21-2009, 07:38 PM
Another mixing chart, this time in Holbeins. I chose strong top-tray hues because Holbeins are a colourist's delight with their range of tints. The striking thing for me was how opaque they are, mixing them takes multiple layers and very delicate application of the strong colors like vermilion. The light tints mix in a satisfying way.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Jan-2009/70184-Holbein-Mixing-01.jpg

The chromatic strip bending up on either side of the bottom was my testing overlapping soft-edged patches all the same #3 tint in different hues.

Scarefishcrow
01-21-2009, 08:43 PM
I'll get the Neocolors charted soon, Robert. Great mixing chart.

Might check the thread on Custom Duties for info on 25% discount code for Jerry's beginning Feb 1!

Bill

Scarefishcrow
01-22-2009, 03:54 PM
Stumbled upon this color chart I did of my Craypas Specialist set when I first got them and thought I would share it here as I don't know if there is one of the full set posted. Also included are 16bit grayscale, followed by desaturation images of the scan.

Bill

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-22_13-44-16_0077.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-22_13-44-16_007716bgs.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-22_13-44-16_0077ds.jpg

robertsloan2
01-22-2009, 05:23 PM
Thanks for posting the full set of Cray-Pas Specialists color chart, Bill. I know that while I'm getting some next month, I won't have the full range. Only the largest set easily available.

Scarefishcrow
01-22-2009, 07:06 PM
No problem. I did this when I first got them. It is on Strathmore Pastel Paper.

Bill:thumbsup:

Scarefishcrow
01-23-2009, 04:25 AM
Robert,
Haven't gotten the NeoArts done, but Here is the 84 set of NeoColorII's.

The swatch blocks are white, black, 75% Gray, 50% Gray, 25% Gray.

Sequence of pages for each chart is : Color Scan; 16bit Grayscale Converstion; Desaturation of Color Scan




http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-23_02-44-07_0215.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-23_02-44-07_021516bgs.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-23_02-44-07_0215ds.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-23_02-42-19_0214.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-23_02-42-19_021416bgs.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-23_02-42-19_0214ds.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-23_02-47-06_0216.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-2009-01-23_02-47-06_021616bgs.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-16ds.jpg
Hope these are useful!
Bill

robertsloan2
01-23-2009, 11:11 AM
Wow, thanks! The opacity of NeoColor II is so evident in these charts -- and the grayscales help too in seeing what the values really are. I've gotten better at squinting to judge values over the years but this still helps a lot.

I'll definitely have to have some black Colourfix handy when I get these.

Scarefishcrow
01-23-2009, 12:49 PM
Thank you, Robert. I am posting CC's of the set of 30 (of 60) colors of NeoArt I have. These are short, fat sticks ilke traditional pastels. They have high pigment load but are somewhat harder and waxier to me. Each chart has the same as the NeoColor II charts on the left side. On the right side I have attached additional swatches made on some NOT Stratmore WC Paper. The left swatch is laid on dry then pulled out with a wet brush. The swatch on the right is color lifted directly from the stick like a pan WC with wet brush and applied to the dry WC paper.

Hope these are useful.

Bill:wave:

As before: Color Scan: 16bit Grayscale Conversion:Color Scan Desaturation

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-NeoArt1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-NeoArt1_16bgs.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-NeoArt1_ds.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-NeoArt2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-NeoArt2_16bgs.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jan-2009/108067-NeoArt2_ds.jpg

robertsloan2
01-23-2009, 06:16 PM
Nice! I notice NeoArt's also got more variation in opacity than the Neocolor II... interesting. Harder and more waxy but very pigment rich. I'll have to remember that. Price is so sky high that I'll probably wait till I've gotten Neocolor II and the other watersolubles first.

Scarefishcrow
01-23-2009, 06:45 PM
Yes they are about $3.88 / stick! They are large and you can pick the sticks up and use them like a handheld pan watercolor. The color picked up off the stick without excessive water is VERY lush.

All but a few have *** lightfastness.

Bill:wave:

robertsloan2
01-23-2009, 08:34 PM
Drooling at the sets on ASW, I noticed they got in some more of the 225 color Holbein sets. The price is up to $575 but they have them again.

Scarefishcrow
01-24-2009, 09:55 PM
Well, that's not too bad considering I got them some time ago at $450 when they were still abundant.!

I guess it is inevitable they go up.

Bill:wave:

robertsloan2
01-25-2009, 12:23 AM
Yeah. I can wait and hope there will still be some when I'm more prosperous. It could happen. Meanwhile I'm happy with my 100 color set and may also be looking at when they'll do a 145 set with full range new range.

hoakley
01-25-2009, 07:55 AM
I am very happy to scan and perform colorimetry (using the ColorMunki) on patches, as invited by Bill. I have sent him my postal address.

I think the best idea is to send prepared colour patches, on a regular full white paper under glassine. Colour patches need to be full colour (i.e. an even and complete cover of OP, but short of impasto!), around 0.75 inch square or larger. I suggest using a paper with some tooth but not one that needs several layers to fill the tooth. The aim is to get full colour, which should be the most reproducible - whilst we are obviously very interested in levels of shading, these are too variable to be reproducible in colorimetry. Each patch needs to be completely clear from adjacent patches, and labelled with some meaningful identifier. For Senneliers that is easy, using the stick number. I have labelled using a graphite stick, but you need to be careful to ensure the labels are legible and kept clear from the OP.

I have here an almost complete set of Sennelier OPs that I have re-done this morning, 46 of the 55 Sennelier OSs, and a near complete set of Caran d'Ache Neopastels that I will chart in due course. Offerings of other sets are very welcome, and I will post derived info and downloadable colour charts when I process them.

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-25-2009, 12:51 PM
Thanks Howard,
I will prepare the patches and forward them to you in the near future. This will be very useful information.

Thanks again.

Bill:wave:

I am very happy to scan and perform colorimetry (using the ColorMunki) on patches, as invited by Bill. I have sent him my postal address.

I think the best idea is to send prepared colour patches, on a regular full white paper under glassine. Colour patches need to be full colour (i.e. an even and complete cover of OP, but short of impasto!), around 0.75 inch square or larger. I suggest using a paper with some tooth but not one that needs several layers to fill the tooth. The aim is to get full colour, which should be the most reproducible - whilst we are obviously very interested in levels of shading, these are too variable to be reproducible in colorimetry. Each patch needs to be completely clear from adjacent patches, and labelled with some meaningful identifier. For Senneliers that is easy, using the stick number. I have labelled using a graphite stick, but you need to be careful to ensure the labels are legible and kept clear from the OP.

I have here an almost complete set of Sennelier OPs that I have re-done this morning, 46 of the 55 Sennelier OSs, and a near complete set of Caran d'Ache Neopastels that I will chart in due course. Offerings of other sets are very welcome, and I will post derived info and downloadable colour charts when I process them.

Howard.

robertsloan2
01-25-2009, 01:20 PM
Looking at the cool layouts you do for your color charts, Bill, I got an idea.

You could put the paper you're using for the samples into your printer and draw up the areas for the patches with a gutter between them and typed-in text for color number/name under the patches.

I might try doing something like that for my next round of color charts when I have to test and review them for my site -- the ones that do have color numbers like the Van Goghs anyway. Some of the cheap ones may not have color names or numbers to identify them. I'd have to cut my paper to letter size to use it with my printer but it'd make the results look good and easy to understand.

Scarefishcrow
01-25-2009, 01:34 PM
Interesting idea, Robert.

Bill:wave:

hoakley
01-25-2009, 05:47 PM
I have now, after a long day's work with scanner and colorimeter, updated my colour charts at http://www.ehnoakley.com/Art.html

These now provide almost the complete set of Sennelier OPs, and 46 of the 55 Sennelier OSs, with real colour patches, and measured colour values for each colour. Measurements are given in RGB, L*a*b, and in Munsell co-ordinates. (Next time, we must get Bill in love with L*a*b rather than the complexities of Munsell :) )

As before, each is available in the original Numbers 1.x spreadsheet format, for Mac users, and as a PDF for others.

Enjoy!

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
01-25-2009, 06:15 PM
I have now, after a long day's work with scanner and colorimeter, updated my colour charts at http://www.ehnoakley.com/Art.html

These now provide almost the complete set of Sennelier OPs, and 46 of the 55 Sennelier OSs, with real colour patches, and measured colour values for each colour. Measurements are given in RGB, L*a*b, and in Munsell co-ordinates. (Next time, we must get Bill in love with L*a*b rather than the complexities of Munsell :) )


As before, each is available in the original Numbers 1.x spreadsheet format, for Mac users, and as a PDF for others.

Enjoy!

Howard.
Actually, Howard, it is only by chance I encountered Munsell space. In reading D. Smith's resource pages on their color wheel and its basis on Lab space I began to understand the similarities in concept. In many ways it is similar to Munsell space in that its axis is a value scale and colors run from saturated toward the outer surface toward Neutral as they move toward the center.

I'm actually flexible! When more so mentally than physically, it seems.:lol:

ADDED Edit: Howard, took some time and explored you site. INCREDIBLE PHOTOS of a very beautiful place. Also impressive and eclectic set of professional interests and talents. I tip my hat to you!



Bill:thumbsup:

robertsloan2
01-25-2009, 10:17 PM
Thanks for adding so much information to those Sennelier charts, Howard. I hadn't noticed before that you have the value in numeric terms but that helps me a lot -- when I get some open stock ones I have certain values in mind sometimes and it's good to tell which of the light blues is the lightest.

hoakley
01-26-2009, 01:41 PM
No problems, Bill and Robert. The numerical values are the new additions to the charts, Robert, measured yesterday using my new ColorMunki on a fresh colour chart.

I must - once the weather is in better sorts - go out and do some plein air around this island. As you have seen, Bill, it is a gorgeous place in the right conditions. I should get quite good at painting chalk!

Howard.

hoakley
01-28-2009, 05:39 PM
Latest news - as reported in the giclee thread, I have now performed a check cal on the ColorMunki, and the values recorded in my colour charts are most likely to be accurate to within +/- 1 unit in the L and a channels, and within +/- 2 units in the b channel. They are thus much more accurate than earlier measurements on scanned images.

Howard.

robertsloan2
01-28-2009, 06:29 PM
Howard, thank you so much for adding those value numbers. It helps me a lot when I don't see the swatches in order by value to judge value by comparison. Also with looking at sticks, some sticks look much darker than they are on the page.

robertsloan2
01-29-2009, 02:13 PM
My sample Maimeri Classico just arrived -- they sent the entire 12 color set, so a color chart of the twelver is included below.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Jan-2009/70184-MaimeriClassico12.jpg

Texture is firm and a little dry, crumbs are small and blow away easily. White is moderately opaque. I let these warm to room temperature before making the chart, much patience as that took. I'll probably try them on a stone study next to see how well the colors mix and whether that firm texture gives them a lot of control.

Round wrapped sticks 3/8" diameter, 2 3/4" long. Range is 48 colors. The scan made Yellow Ochre Pale come out pinker than it actually is on the page, but it would not look true by color adjustment until I turned the yellow to light green so I left it.

robertsloan2
02-04-2009, 09:14 PM
A couple of color charts not yet posted here, for inexpensive brands. I haven't reviewed these yet but will give brief reviewlets with the charts here:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2009/70184-PrangSketcho24colorchart.jpg

Prang Sketcho -- yukkk! Notice the crumbs all over the page. Low pigment concentration, dry, hard, waxy, the magenta looks like a fluorescent and so do some purples, this is definitely a kid brand and seems like my toddler grandson would enjoy it more than my six year old granddaughter. Giant sticks for very tiny hands but it takes a lot of pressure to make a mark.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2009/70184-Pentel49colorchart.jpg

Pentel 50 stick set. Now I know why I see good drawings with these, they are smooth and the least crumbly of any cheap brand I've tried. Very strong color. They save money by making skinny little 1/4" wide sticks that blend well and have good control. I like them. My sketchbook and my wallet are happy as these are loony cheap, $5 and change for the big set which includes an extra white. So far these are what I recommend for practice set. If they have decent lightfastness in even some of the range, it's the bargain brand to rejoice in.

robertsloan2
02-04-2009, 10:07 PM
One more cheap brand and this fills up my 4" x 6" sketchbook, leaving me free to start the fresh clean virgin new one!

Crayola 28 color oil pastels set. I wish I'd had these as a kid.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2009/70184-Crayola28colorchart.jpg

They RULE compared to the crayons. They probably have all the lightfastness of painting with fruit juice or cereal milk (IE only lightfast if they get on light colored clothing) but the texture though firm is nice. Reasonably smooth, less crumbly than crayons and definitely opaque vs. those pesky crayons. Like crayons but better.

robertsloan2
02-06-2009, 05:24 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2009/70184-ColorChart48Reeves.jpg

48 Reeves oil pastels. These had a nice soft texture, surprising color names (Sapphire Blue is a blue-green? Viridian darker than Dark Green?), some crumbs but blended nicely, the whites are warm whites more yellowish than the bright white paper. A good bargain set, nice big sticks, texture is quite soft but they're not as opaque as Pentels. Opacity varies and isn't very strong except on the white -- see light colors over black swatch on the bottom. White is much stronger than Chinese White and lighter.

Scarefishcrow
02-06-2009, 05:34 PM
Robert, you've been a busy boy.

Bill

Barbara WC
02-06-2009, 08:02 PM
Thanks for the great charts Robert. I had tried Reeves about 5 years ago in a color theory/composition art class and hated them!!!! Same about their soft pastels. I wonder now that I have more experience if they wouldn't be as awful as I remember?

Maybe Pentels might be nice to have for an upcoming visit with my 15 yr. old niece. I have a sampling of sticks from different brands to give her, but i know when she's on her own to buy more colors, she'll need something reasonably priced. The range of hues in the Pentel's look pretty good! Can't beat a set of 50 for under $6.00!

Barbara

robertsloan2
02-06-2009, 10:11 PM
Pentels are better than Reeves. If I were just buying a set to use on a trip or something for sketching I would not bother with the Reeves. I'd use the Pentel. Reeves has some problems with smearing and crumbling, and its pigment load is not as heavy as Pentel for some peculiar reason. Maybe it's their choice of pigments or how they're ground.

Of course Reeves may be more lightfast too. I'll find out when I do the tests. Recommend Pentel for her for cheap to keep on with if she doesn't want to put a lot of money into it. So far they're the best of the cheap ones I've tried, beat out Loew Cornell to my happy surprise. The economy of "make the sticks smaller to keep the price down" versus "make them big but use less pigment" results in better Pentel handling.

robertsloan2
02-07-2009, 07:04 PM
I've been busy today again too! Been roaming through the whole thread to see if anyone else posted CrayPas Expressionist or Junior (thank you kindly, Bill, for posting the FULL range of Specialist!) or the Faber Castell Creative Studio.

So here are three more charts!

Faber-Castell Creative Studio
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Feb-2009/70184-FaberCastellStudio36.jpg

Cray-Pas Junior Artist
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Feb-2009/70184-CrayPasJRcolorchart50.jpg

Cray-Pas Expressionist
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Feb-2009/70184-CrayPasExpressionist50chart.jpg

The three bars at the bottom are a shading bar of Prussian Blue blended with the Extender, then the same color blended with White, then a mixture of Yellow Orange and Prussian Blue for interesting muted greens.

I like these, I can see why people sometimes get confused as to which one's artist grade, they're pretty good! Very smooth and the crumbs blend right back in. Even the Juniors were much better than I expected.

Barbara WC
02-07-2009, 08:06 PM
Robert-

Once again thanks!

All-

I have an idea. Would it be possible to start a thread with the photos of the color charts only??? I think this color chart thread is valuable, but it's getting quite long and has lots of commentary posts in between the color charts- much of which I find useful, but it would be nice to have just the color charts in one thread for quick reference.

What do you think? It would be up to every individual to post in another thread, but it seems like there are only 3 or 4 people that have posted handmade color charts in this thread, so should be doable.

Barbara

Scarefishcrow
02-07-2009, 08:18 PM
Robert-

Once again thanks!

All-

I have an idea. Would it be possible to start a thread with the photos of the color charts only??? I think this color chart thread is valuable, but it's getting quite long and has lots of commentary posts in between the color charts- much of which I find useful, but it would be nice to have just the color charts in one thread for quick reference.

What do you think? It would be up to every individual to post in another thread, but it seems like there are only 3 or 4 people that have posted handmade color charts in this thread, so should be doable.

Barbara

It would be much easier to make an index thread with links to specific posts of the color charts.

There is already one for earlier color charts in the index thread I posted at the start of the OP Studio Forum.

If you like I will post links to the color charts by MFGR once Robert has posted all the color charts of the new ones he has.

Reposting the color charts would probably cause more confusion.

Would that work, Barbara?

Bill:wave:

Barbara WC
02-07-2009, 08:44 PM
Sounds like a good plan! Can you possibly start a new thread with all the links?

Barbara

Scarefishcrow
02-07-2009, 09:00 PM
Sounds like a good plan! Can you possibly start a new thread with all the links?

Barbara

Yes, I can do that. I would rather wait until Robert has finished adding the latest charts and I have a couple to add as well over various gray scale values and then when it seems to have quieted down I will do a new index thread. If I do it now I won't be able to edit the Index post.

For the time being, here are links to all the older CChart posts, but not including the recent ones Robert has added:

Color Charts by Brand:
Sennelier: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...4&postcount=65 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7248594&postcount=65)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...5&postcount=86 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7487925&postcount=86)


Holbein Full Set:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...7&postcount=28 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7487427&postcount=28)

CD NeoPastel: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...9&postcount=64 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7248539&postcount=64)

Erengi:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...5&postcount=27 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6660895&postcount=27)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...9&postcount=71 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7346059&postcount=71)


Daler Rowney:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...4&postcount=84 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7486634&postcount=84)

Lyra Aquacolor:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...1&postcount=48 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7062801&postcount=48)

Cretacolor Aquastic:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...6&postcount=46 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7062776&postcount=46)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...8&postcount=72 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7389628&postcount=72)

Cretacolor AQUABRIC
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...1&postcount=55 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7121531&postcount=55)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...0&postcount=56


Hope that helps.

Bill

robertsloan2
02-07-2009, 10:01 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Feb-2009/70184-HolbeinAcademic48chart.jpg

Holbein Academic. Very traditional, 10 or 11 earth tones if you count Yellow Grey (I do), 5 reds, 4 orange, 8 green, 6 blue, one violet, 3 yellows. This is almost a landscape set. I was surprised at the texture, more detail in the review on my site.

This is the last till my Niji set arrives in the middle of the month. Wow. I am so close to finishing all the reviews, I can taste it. Onward to another artwork and writing another review tonight!

Thanks for doing that index post, Bill. Much appreciated!

Barbara WC
02-08-2009, 10:33 PM
Thanks for doing the work on the links Bill. I agree that it would be better to wait to start a new thread until Robert and you have added your charts.

These charts are so useful, IMO

Thanks again-
Barbara

Scarefishcrow
02-08-2009, 10:41 PM
Thanks for doing the work on the links Bill. I agree that it would be better to wait to start a new thread until Robert and you have added your charts.

These charts are so useful, IMO

Thanks again-
Barbara

That was my thought long ago when I started the thread. I thought a collection of actual hand colored charts would be useful and you are right, the length has gotten to where an Index thread would be useful. Thanks to all those that have also contributed CC's to the thread.

Bill:clap:

robertsloan2
02-20-2009, 03:35 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Feb-2009/70184-ColorChart_36Niji.jpg

36 color Full Range set of Niji oil pastels that just arrived. I wanted to test how they'd look in a light application and found it was a bit tougher to get broken line effects and tonal layers than with some others, at least to get them even. At the bottom are two small studies and a pointillist doodle just testing how they blend, handle and so on. These are cheap and I'll review them in depth on my site now that I've got images to put in the review.

Scarefishcrow
02-20-2009, 10:27 PM
Will try to finish mine up next week, if possible.
Bill

robertsloan2
02-25-2009, 12:30 PM
That's great! Thanks, Bill.

Here is a chart of the 48 color Louvre set, the one you found at MerriArtist.com -- I ordered them and they arrived very fast because shipping was by Priority Mail. I did some sketching at the bottom from imagination and some mixing tests in greens and blues. These are on the hard side and have a lot of crumbs, very small crumbs that go everywhere and smeared on the scanner glass after I scanned this -- even after I used canned air to blow them off the chart, they were everywhere.

The texture seemed to suggest I'd be better off with loose techniques than heavy applcation, more waxy than creamy and not as much pigment concentration as some others I liked. I still need to do an artwork with them so that I can do the review for my site, might catch up to those reviews today or tomorrow (still need to review Niji too.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Feb-2009/70184-LouvreOPchart.jpg

hoakley
03-15-2009, 06:10 PM
As promised, here is a chart of all 36 colours in the newly launched Eberhard Faber Van Dyke OP range. These are just starting to arrive in UK art suppliers, although I suspect that they are OEM products made outside Europe originally. The manufacturer has almost no info on their website, and although claimed to be artist's grade they are quite hard, crumb easily, and unless warmed seem to produce rather patchy colour. I do not know pricing yet, but I suspect they will be much cheaper than Senneliers or Neopastels.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2009/162310-fabervd.jpg

Howard.

Scarefishcrow
03-16-2009, 02:33 PM
Thanks, Howard, and you are most likely right about the OEM. There is a site for importers listing mfgrs I have search for Oil Pastels and there are countless ones in the Asia that produce primarily OP for import and branding for sale to schoolchildren as the target market. Without specific info on the manufacturer it is anyone's guess as to who has made many of these "generic" OP's. This is particularly true of the ones targeted at K-12 which is, along with the "empty nester retiree hobbyist" apparently the vast share of the art materials market.

This is another reason art grade materials are expensive, not only are they more expesive due to the quantity and quality of ingredients, they are also very LOW marketshare relative to the segments mentioned above.

This may be the reason that some of the best ones or most famous are those started and/or run by artist's themselves to provide quality materials.

I am terribly behind on my Color Charting but promise to get going.

Bill:thumbsup:

robertsloan2
03-17-2009, 11:19 PM
Howard, thanks for listing another brand I haven't heard of and reviewing it. I tend not to like the hard, crumby ones as much as the soft creamy ones. It's interesting to think about how the same product can be marketed under so many brand names too, makes me wonder about some close cousins in the ones I have reviewed whether they all really came from the same manufacturer.

I lean more toward some of the student brands than others after sampling so many of them. I try to rotate them when I'm just sketching but keep coming back to the ones I like more. It'll be a long time before I run out of sketch supplies. lol

hoakley
04-06-2009, 04:34 PM
In case anyone wants a free Munsell colour chart, this thread http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=556203
has a link to a free downloadable PDF.

Howard.

robertsloan2
04-06-2009, 05:53 PM
Thanks, Howard. That's very useful to have. It's interesting to look at the way the hues change as you move down into the shades on the chart. Very cool. I'm not sure I'll try to print it but it's great on screen.

hoakley
08-07-2009, 02:52 PM
I have just updated my downloadable colour charts of Sennelier OPs at http://www.ehnoakley.com/Art.html

When I bought my Sennelier OP sets, colour 235 Charcoal blue was missing from each, and until today every attempt to obtain it has failed. Jackson's very kindly sent me no less than three sticks today, so I have added its colour patch and colorimetry info to my charts. As before they are in PDF and (Apple) Numbers spreadsheet formats. Sennelier afficionados may enjoy the other product charts there, for their OSs, oils, and now egg tempera paints too.

Howard.

RainySea
06-26-2013, 04:01 PM
PORTFOLIO OIL PASTELS

They are watersoluble, but I never use them that way. Chart is on regular kids construction paper. The red violet shade is transparent.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jun-2013/132279-Scan.jpeg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jun-2013/132279-portfolio.JPG

Flycatcher10
06-26-2013, 04:18 PM
Excellent RainySea - I'm going to ask Pat is she can sticky this so the OP chart thread can stay at top for easy reference.

Thanks!

Pat, can you sticky this thread so it stays near the top of OP posts here and also under tools. Thanks ~

RainySea
06-27-2013, 10:26 AM
IN case there is not one, here is Pentel 50 set. I couldn't find it here but may have missed it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jun-2013/132279-pentel.jpeg

os2013
08-28-2013, 04:08 AM
Thanks, Bill. I hadn't done that with my greasies yet. I'll just print yours out. I don't have all those colors yet either.

Pat

Dear Pat, was browsing this forum thread and noticed the reference to Greasy Oil pastels from Kama Pigments and your reply above which mentions that you seemed to have these at the time. I have never heard of them. Tried their web site and they do not list these anymore. Are they discontinued? Are they any special compared to other high end brand?
Thanks
OS

Pat Isaac
08-28-2013, 07:26 AM
I do have them and I also believe they have been discontinued. I didn't like them as much as my regular OPs. They acted more like oil sticks, which is fine if that is what your want.

Pat

os2013
08-28-2013, 01:23 PM
Thanks Pat! I also contacted the manufacturer and asked why they discontinued the product. They said (the reply came within hours of the question by the way, wow!) it was not bc of the performance but bc they had trouble with people not knowing where to use it. And your words confirm this - if they do behave like oil sticks in handling then calling them OPs if confusing indeed.

DavidHH
09-08-2016, 07:43 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Feb-2009/70184-ColorChart48Reeves.jpg

48 Reeves oil pastels. These had a nice soft texture, surprising color names (Sapphire Blue is a blue-green? Viridian darker than Dark Green?), some crumbs but blended nicely, the whites are warm whites more yellowish than the bright white paper. A good bargain set, nice big sticks, texture is quite soft but they're not as opaque as Pentels. Opacity varies and isn't very strong except on the white -- see light colors over black swatch on the bottom. White is much stronger than Chinese White and lighter.

I'm pleased that someone is saying Reeves are good bargain pastels. One site quotes that you should never buy them and even in the forums on here few have a good word. As it happens I got a new pack in the post today, then later a job lot from ebay. Ive been trying them out and I'm delighted

PeggyB
02-08-2017, 05:56 PM
I make my own charts every time I get a new set or new color. I use an Excel program to create larger cells under the standard size cells. The new cells are about an inch square, but you can make them whatever works for you. The standard size cell is where I put the color number. I have 9x12 cold press watercolor paper that I cut to 8.5 x 11 to fit one at a time into my printer. I print pages as needed, and then write the brand name at the top of the page. Then I fill in the numbers and colors. When finished I put it in a clear plastic sleeve, and place in a three ring binder. Between the soft and I'll pastels I own the binder is getting quite thick!

Ratchet
02-10-2017, 10:32 PM
Thanks for the tip about the clear plastic sleeves. I haven't given much thought to protection but now that you mentioned it, that would keep them clean and crisp.