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~~Kathleen
02-16-2008, 02:22 PM
:wave:
Hi all
My new work and I am stumped.
I have included the reference photo for comparison.
My problem is (are?) the ripples on the water.
How do I achieve the smooth look as opposed to what I have in the Painting so far? What I am doing all ends up very much like "Choppy" water as opposed to calm.
The colour values are bang on, and there are fine tunings to do with the lad and the dock, but they are not my concern right now!
Any suggestions?
Thanks all ~~Kathleen
Edited to add....the yellow light showing in the top middle of the painting is from my light on the easel.:wink2:
Reference photo;
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Feb-2008/92567-meatpies_photograph.JPG
Painting;http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Feb-2008/92567-photo3.jpg

Bill_E
02-16-2008, 02:44 PM
I would suggest getting the water smooth first with soft transitions between areas of different values. Once that looks right, do the old squinty eye trick to see what ripples really make a difference. I would probably dry brush the the darker tones of the ripples in with a small beat up bristle brush (one of my favorites).

Check the horizon. I think it is a little high.

Nice ref. Tough painting.

Shirl Parker
02-16-2008, 03:06 PM
Bill's right, the picture is divided almost exactly in half by the horizon line. The bright areas behind the clouds have been painted more towards the center, than the photo and are now centered on top of each other, almost dividing the picture vertically as well, and looking like a waterfall from the top opening into the lower one. And the light areas appear to be in front of the dark. The edges in the clouds are too hard.

I like the water, though. Overall it is a nice painting and has lots of possibilities.

Shirl

Nomad_Ca
02-16-2008, 04:06 PM
Well..I'm probably the goofball but I find the stormier looking water a bit more interesting..match the storm threatening sky..I'd have to have the dock pilings a bit more vertical but that's just me..

I like it..

eyepaint
02-16-2008, 04:12 PM
Maybe some thin layers of glaze over the water values will help smooth the choppiness?

howyadoin
02-16-2008, 05:27 PM
Maybe some thin layers of glaze over the water values will help smooth the choppiness?Seconded. And maybe a bit of white or neutral grey drybrushed on before the glazes.

That oughta smooth things out pretty well.

mrs willow
02-16-2008, 05:32 PM
I would suggest getting the water smooth first with soft transitions between areas of different values. Once that looks right, do the old squinty eye trick to see what ripples really make a difference. I would probably dry brush the the darker tones of the ripples in with a small beat up bristle brush (one of my favorites).

Check the horizon. I think it is a little high.

Nice ref. Tough painting.

I think Bill has given you good advice .Persevere, you will get there!
Sandy

Charlie's Mum
02-16-2008, 06:14 PM
I agree with the crits about the lake line Kathleen - but I actuall y like the way you painted the water!
It may be just that the scale of your wave painting is a mite large for the rest of the sizes in the work - so smooth them out towards the distance.

susme48
02-17-2008, 12:19 AM
I like the water also, and agree about the sort of approaching storm. Am still learning about composition, so the horizon doesn't bother me, as much as others....I read that some of the greatest painters went against the custom of thirds etc...and went on to paint masterpieces....so....I try not to always let that part bother me. If I was gonna do anything to the dock/pilings...I would lean them into the painting instead of out; but that is just me. I like it alot already. I think the light on the easel is throwing alot of the perspective on the whole thing off...but that also is just me.

dreamz
02-17-2008, 02:03 AM
I dont think i would have added the dock until I was satisfied with the water. I believe what you are seeing as choppy is your brush strokes, if you want flat calm water you have to use long strokes and blend them together (easier said than done on a large piece) after you have the base in then you can add in the ripples and small waves, which can take some time and a LOT of perserverance(sp:()

I do like where your headed with the sky and mountains, I dont generally work with underpainting so it will be interesting to watch this come to life

*Violet*
02-17-2008, 02:38 AM
i'm with liking the water too and feeling it needn't be changed to achieve what you wish with a few things addressed ... the reflection of light should extend toward the viewer the same width of the light itself, as i've indicated on the following copy of your painting with vertical lines .... and then, with ripples added in the fashion of the diagonal lines after the reflected light has been addressed i feel the movement of the water would be achieved .... and then the far shore highlight heightened by horizontal darkness just in front to depict the far surface water would create the depiction of distance as i've suggested ... what do you think? ....

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2008/46454-aa._sunsetjpg.jpg

a fair bit crude, but sorta like this ...
only better !! ... :)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2008/46454-a_a._sunsetjpg.jpg

squint .... see what i mean??

Andun
02-17-2008, 03:16 AM
Very nice ideas Violet! I bet that will help Kathleen:)

~~Kathleen
02-17-2008, 08:21 PM
Thanks everyone.
I am back at it now, and I have considered all the advise.
Yep, the horizon must be lowered a bit....
Dry brushing to attain the ripple effect is working.
The light values are not going to work as you suggested Violet, as if you look in the Reference photo, the light in the clouds, is not finished in my painting.
I think black lines will just make the horizon very harsh!
The only black in the Photograph is in the dock pilings, and the water below.
I like the softness of the photograph.
And, the refracted light on the water is very uneven as opposed to your ammended work, actually, the reflection of light on the water (again, in the photograph) seems to be a more triangular shape to me.
.... and then the far shore highlight heightened by horizontal darkness just in front to depict the far surface water would create the depiction of distance as i've suggested ... what do you think? .... tehehehe, I am not sure just what you have said here!
I am not an experianced painter as you are, I do not know the rules, and quite often paint things in fours, and have horizons that are not to the rule of thirds, because real life does not comform to any rules....I paint what I see mostly.
(Who makes up these rules anyhow? Do they have a problem with real life?)
So to finish, Thanks all, I will update as soon as I have anything of improvement to show.....I am going on a hike up a mountain tomorrow, and when I get back I will get at it again.
~~Kathleen

gurleygirl
02-17-2008, 08:52 PM
I have no idea, but I think its lookin' great.
Tracey

*Violet*
02-17-2008, 09:14 PM
hi again, kathleen ... i hope i didn't offend you with any of my suggestions ... i certainly didn't mean to ... i didn't know you weren't finished with the light in the clouds ... i just assumed you were and only meant to vaguely identify that the reflections come forward in more or less a band straight forward from the source ... in the reference i notice a lesser band to the right of the main band and if that is what you are yet to add, i still feel the right edge of that one has a vertical edge to it .... and regarding my lines ... they're certainly not meant to be taken literally but only suggestively as they're so crude ... i didn't mean them to imply that garrish black or such heavy light lines be painted ... i only meant my lines to broadly identify values that i picked out of the reference ... and the line of my text that you didn't understand meant to speak of the distant highlight of sunlight on the water's surface and the darker band just in front of it that is really the rough waters of the surface a fair distance away ... the closer the water gets, the more light it reflects and so is lighter ... again, i certainly didn't mean any offense and my crude lines were not meant to be taken literally ... i think your treatment of the water is really nice so far and your painting in general is well on it's way to depict the overcast atmosphere in your reference painting very well !! ... :thumbsup:

~~Kathleen
02-17-2008, 09:29 PM
Thanks Violet, Please know, that it really takes a lot to offend me!:lol:
You were in no way offensive in your reply.
I am totally self-taught, and I sometimes get lost in the "Rules" of painting.
I often wonder why one would just not paint what they see?
I have included a pic showing how I see the reflected light (enclosed in black)....The red area is where you suggested the darker values I think, if so I understand what you were trying to tell me.
I do agree with you.
(Takes me a while to figure some things out:wink2:)
Well, back to the drawing board, and hopefully I can achieve some semblance of order from the chaos I have placed in my world with this painting!
~~Kathleen
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2008/92567-for_violet.JPG

*Violet*
02-18-2008, 02:54 AM
*whew* ... thank you so much for not being offended ... i certainly never mean to, tho the typewritten word can so often and easily be misunderstood ... i hope then, that we can continue this discussion in only the best intended way ... :) ...

re *rules* of painting ... i believe that it is more like *the psychology of what makes artwork appealing* ... and that is what has provided the basis on what have become to be known as rules ... eg. understanding why we find odd numbers of objects more appealing to the eye than an even number ... or why we feel an image with a horizon line either above the middle or below the middle is visually more pleasing ... or understanding why objects found in spots according to the rule of thirds are more interesting than the same objects smack in the middle of a painting .... it is understanding why we like things better one way or another that has brought about what are considered the *rules* ... which really are more generally ... good guidelines .... based on what we generally like better than something else .... certainly, tho, many a famous painter has successful paintings in which they've broken all such *rules* ... but learning about painting is best done with such guidelines before trying to break the rules ... like learning how to drive a car properly before learning to race one ...

and as for seeing the light on the water of your reference photo ... i understand that light, like shadows across a relatively flat surface such as the lake, extends from its source a straight line ... and in the reference photo what may be confusing the issue are the differences in light intensity from thicker and thinner cloud patterns vs its play on water with differing wave patterns ... here's how i believe the light bands are, trying to show the different brightness bands .... perhaps someone else can explain the phenomenon better? ...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2008/46454-a_a_lake.jpg

i'm trying to also identify the main differing light intensity sources in the sky ... in my haste the lines aren't perfectly vertical but i hope you can see what i basically mean .... again ... squinting at the reference or taking it out of focus should show the basic value patterns that can be confused with details such as the lines formed by the waves ....

~~Kathleen
02-18-2008, 02:02 PM
Hi Violet.
... but learning about painting is best done with such guidelines before trying to break the rules ... like learning how to drive a car properly before learning to race one ... I know where you are coming from with this statement, but I have never been a comformist:lol:
I found a while back that trying to conform to "The Rules" was seriously endangering how I saw things, and interfering with what my concepts were.
The rules may be good for some, and that is fine, but when I see something, I know from which angle the sun shines on it, and I paint accordingly (well most of the time)
Too many rules removes the joy of painting.
I do now understand where you are coming from.
I grew up on the shores of one of the biggest lakes in the world, and often I have seen light dancing across a lake in patches due to the sun.
The patches were comformed to the light source, but never in straight lines down.
But, while the greater amount of brightness comes from the lower light source, it just impacts on the water nearest to itself, whereas the patch of light in the clouds above in the higher part of the sky, will impact more on the water.
See my amended photo.

Thanks for your help, I do appreciate it!
~~Kathleen
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2008/92567-for_violet.JPG

LavenderFrost
02-18-2008, 04:04 PM
Too many rules removes the joy of painting.

I agree.

I wish I could tell you how to paint the water, but if I was doing it, it would take experimenting and probably a few tries/layers.

You're doing well with it, but it seems pretty gray to me. What about making it more blue like the reference?

*Violet*
02-18-2008, 04:28 PM
hi kathleen ... i see where you're coming from ... and we're seeing things very similarly ... and that's the main thing ... seeing ... with all that, i'm sure your painting will sing once the highlights and wave patterns are in ... it's well on the way to that end ... and i am like you regarding the rules .... i like to paint what i see too ... and what i like ... it is more fun than conforming ... i look forward seeing to your finished piece ...

gaykir
02-18-2008, 04:43 PM
I like this very much - but I think I'll stay out of this and let you Canadian's work it out! :thumbsup: Ha!

edtree
02-18-2008, 06:17 PM
:wave: Hi Kathleen!

You've probably already worked things out, but I'll throw in my suggestion anyway :p - this may have already been mentioned as I didn't read all the posts. I think what would make the water look smoother would be to paint the water near the horizon without waves. Also, maybe smooth out the area to the (our) left of the dock.

The painting is shaping up quite nicely though. I like the way the little figure is illuminated - really makes the eye zero in on that area. :D

Elizabeth

TxAggieDarlin
02-18-2008, 10:11 PM
I am so glad you posted and asked this question. I have struggled with that too. So this has been helpful. It is going to be beautiful and I am anxious to see it:clap:

~~Kathleen
02-19-2008, 06:21 PM
Well, I read, and read, listened, and here is where I am now.
This has not been easy, as I have never worked on a monochromatic type painting before.
The water....I have washed it with a bizillion washes, and can see where I will need more to perfect it....But we all know that the process is a slow one.
I have almost cross-hatched the water with washes....Laying down the angular strokes with dry brushing and then crossing it with a damp brush in a horizontal motion over that.
Hope I am making sense here.
I painted out the lad on the dock for now, and as well have scuffed up the dock as well, I can see where the reference of placement is all I need until I get the water and the mist down pat (Yeah right! As if I will ever do that!)
Reference photo;
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2008/92567-meatpies_photograph.JPG
Where I was when we last left off....
my problem was the choppy water (and a lot of other issues that I was not aware of)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2008/92567-new_zealand_001.jpg
Where I am now;
You can see that I have almost calmed the water, lowered the horizon, and begun to work on the mist that is fronting the light source.
I will begin to drop the light onto the water next.
The shiny area just above the horizon on the mountains is a reflection from the flash. (My poor camera is dying)
The dock support posts will be straightened (they areleaning back), I did not see that until someone pointed it out to me.
In my original painting I had the Lad standing above the base of the dock (almost as if he was floating)...That, as well will be fixed when I put him back.
I have to define the right (our) side hills a bit more, and insert a bit more light from the sun in the center middle behind the mountains.
As is usual comments and critiques are welcome.
~~Kathleen

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2008/92567-new_zealand5.jpg

~~Kathleen
02-20-2008, 02:01 AM
I am bumping this up 'cause I need opinions!
~~Kathleen

kadon
02-20-2008, 02:14 AM
Violet, I think your posts were so full of good advice I have kept them in my favourites for future reference. Kathy

gaykir
02-20-2008, 08:44 PM
Kathleen - where are you on this? Any updates?

~~Kathleen
02-20-2008, 09:47 PM
I posted an update yesterday, the latest pics are just below here...:lol:
(with the old painting as a reference lol)
~~Kathleen

gaykir
02-20-2008, 10:07 PM
I really should pay attention! :D

Linee
02-20-2008, 10:07 PM
This is a challenging photo for sure! It looks like you're making some good headway and have gotten some great advice. I like the way you've opened up the sky more.

loobyteacher
02-21-2008, 12:00 AM
Wow Kathleen, good for you! It is a great artist that is willing to listen to those around him or her, paint out areas and begin again. You have done this and so you are learning to be a great artist! The clouds now look much more natural, the water is smoother, and the dock looks like it is in a misty area. Keep up the work and keep us posted!

~~Kathleen
02-21-2008, 12:38 AM
Thanks for asking Gaykir (and I am as guilty of doing this as you are):lol:

Linee, this is a real challenge, as I am working with various hues of the same colour.
It is doing well, but the going is slow (Something I am NOT good at!)
Lobby....One learns here that often others see what we do not, and if you step back and go back everything mentioned can really glare back at you.
This is the first time I have ever "washed" paint on.
(So it is obvious that "Old dogs can learn new tricks!"):lol:
~~I will keep you all up-dated.
~~Kathleen

kadon
02-21-2008, 12:43 AM
Thanks for asking Gaykir (and I am as guilty of doing this as you are):lol:

Linee, this is a real challenge, as I am working with various hues of the same colour.
It is doing well, but the going is slow (Something I am NOT good at!)
Lobby....One learns here that often others see what we do not, and if you step back and go back everything mentioned can really glare back at you.
This is the first time I have ever "washed" paint on.
(So it is obvious that "Old dogs can learn new tricks!"):lol:
~~I will keep you all up-dated.
~~Kathleen

Dumb me Kathleen. But is your final painting on the link you posted....'cos if it is I couldn't find it??????????????

Kathy

susme48
02-21-2008, 12:57 AM
Kathleen, I love how this is progressing!!

~~Kathleen
02-21-2008, 01:42 AM
But is your final painting on the link you posted
No Kathy, I am posting it as I do it, I have a long way to go on this one yet!
Don't worry, I am Dumber quite often, and that is what makes us unique :lol:
But remember, "The only dumb question is the one that is never asked!":thumbsup:
~~Kathleen

edtree
02-21-2008, 07:31 AM
:wave: Good Morning, Kathleen!

I really admire your bravery in painting out and over portions of the dock to re-do the water. I think it is much better. When I painted my one and only seascape a while back, I kept the areas toward the horizon very simple and smooth...the only variation was in the values and those were very subtle. More detail, of course, toward the front. I think your artistic eye is leading you in this same direction. Great job on the revision. I'm really enjoying watching this evolve! :D

Elizabeth