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re-DICulous
12-23-2007, 01:32 PM
black out of the tube is soo.... black. i want more character to my blacks by mixing my own, but i want to know what to mix, whether it's warm or cool, and how its worked for you (or any masters you might be referencing).

-thanx!

LarrySeiler
12-23-2007, 05:10 PM
I paint typically with a limited palette...of French Ultramarine Blue, Cadmium Lemon Yellow, Bright Red....and white. Sometimes Naples Yellow...sometimes viridian.

Important for me to have a good rich and dark blue as it will be my darkest dark...(I use Utrecht French Ult Blue)...

I mix pure blue, a bit of red..touch of yellow to keep too violet. A bit more yellow if I want a lean toward green...
just depends what it juxtaposes.

Not hard...just a touch one way or the other with the red or yellow to keep the dark warm or cool, one sense of color or another....

Here are some examples of darks I got with these three paintings, all painting from life...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2007/532-bluesharpswc.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2007/532-filmwc.0.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2007/532-presqueisle_westsidePA105dpi.jpg

Einion
12-23-2007, 10:15 PM
black out of the tube is soo.... black. i want more character to my blacks by mixing my own...
If you mix black you get black - the same colour that you might see straight from a tube. With any extremely dark grey (which most blacks actually are) there's almost no way of seeing the hue anyway if we're talking about the colour applied thickly and by itself; little point in not using a black paint in the first place in that case.

In case you might be looking for one of the following:
1, a black paint that when mixed with another colour shows some evident hue that's different from what you tend to naturally get with black pigments (which regularly have tints that are slightly blueish);
2, something where the hue is evident in masstone (which isn't black any more).

For 1, there's a very obvious method - that often seems to be overlooked for some reason - to get a very dark colour and that's to simply mix black paint with something else, particularly transparent or semitransparent pigments. The commonest example of something like this is Payne's Grey.

For 2 you can use the same starting point as above and add a tiny bit of white. You could also use an opaque pigment instead of something transparent, which will lighten the mixture automatically.

If you don't want something 'colourful' then you're really looking for a dark near-neutral (close to grey, with just a hint of the hue visible, when tinted or brushed out thinly); any complementary pair will give this if one or both of the starting colours is reasonably dark in value.

(or any masters you might be referencing).
Most painters in the past used black pigment if they wanted black.

Einion

LarrySeiler
12-23-2007, 10:39 PM
something where the hue is evident in masstone (which isn't black any more).

Einion

it feels dark enough to read black, yet has a hint of color to push further contrast...this is actually a very good painting stragegy.

As an example- if one has a red with lighter value as an adjacent color to the dark...by having the dark you have contrast, but by having the dark (which reads at the first look as a black) a slight hint of green, you get an additional whammy (if-you-will) from a complementary to the red. I don't like the hint of green I get adding a green to black...but I do very much love the richness of the dark I make leaning to a green.

I tweak my darks all the time to get that effect.

Other than when I'm playing with a Zorn palette using a black...with my regular limited palette...I don't like mixing color into black to tweak the black.

I did do just that for nearly 17 years with acrylics...but now, after having made my own pigment that feels black and causing it to lean toward a color I want for additional contrast for the past 12 years or so, it is my testimony and opinion that there is a notable difference. A liveliness or richness. Mixing up what looks and feels like a black leaning toward a color does look different than taking black and adding a color to it. Something about black tends to kill a lot of color.

Thing is...there is much that can be said for learning to make one's darks, just making oneself all the more capable and knowledgable. Confident.

After the past 12 years mixing my own forms of black, I now finally am feeling confident enough to play with palettes....like Zorn's...but took quite some time to get to a place to regain trust in myself. Black became too easy to use...but just as easy to miss better judgments.

Each his own...like black, not like black.

Take the roll of 35mm film I painted above. The dark doesn't look like a black(?)...doesn't immediately strike the eye to read as such? Look carefully, and note all the color in the closeup of that 35mm film canister in effort to compose that dark. Most artists using black to paint such would just paint the dark black...which would then just appear black...and thus flatter, less life.

At very close inspection...see how the hints of color in making the suggestion of black/dark work to pull off the greater excitement...greater illusion of depth I wanted-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Dec-2007/532-filmwcdarks.jpg

Not disavowing opinions, but I'll have to agree to disagree...and many outdoor painters past and present would agree with me on this one. Many that mix their own darks...mix up their own sense of black...

Most painters in the past used black pigment if they wanted black.


Not most Impressionists...not most painters on location...and reading John F. Carlson on Landscape Painting, Edgar Payne, Emile Gruppe on and on would also show many opinions advising to stay away from the use of it.

That being said...I'm certainly not saying there are not traditions, periods of masterful fine art (Renaissance and Baroque for one) and so on that did not use black, nor use it well. Sargent used it wonderfully. I don't believe most modern/living artists work I've seen demonstrates using black well. Not like Sargent did.

I am arguing however that it is a completely legitimate interest and supportive history for those artists interested in learning to paint without black. There are advantages to learning to suggest black or darks, richer livelier color for one.

Scottyarthur
12-23-2007, 10:55 PM
I used to use black out of the tube when I first started to paint, but would rather mix my own as it gives a better feel and look to it. mixing blues, reds, and yellows in very amounts will give you black, brown, and even green depending on the mixture. Larry you are a wealth of info I am finding out everytime I read one of your posts.

Einion
12-24-2007, 08:41 AM
it feels dark enough to read black, yet has a hint of color to push further contrast...this is actually a very good painting stragegy.
Granted, a very dark grey surrounded by lighter colour looks darker.

The important point in relation to the original question though: once you get light enough to see evident hue - regardless of how that colour is achieved - we're not talking about black any more; this is not as pedantic as it might seem. Important to make the distinction IMO - black is black, 'rich darks' are what they are, dark near-neutrals are different again.

I'm reminded of the "how do I paint a black dog so it looks black?" type of question. Well as you know you don't paint the whole thing black (or even close really) but if you get the values right, with good blacks or near-blacks placed appropriately, then the dog's coat looks right - looks black - regardless of whether it is in fact mostly not black :)

Thing is...there is much that can be said for learning to make one's darks, just making oneself all the more capable and knowledgable. Confident.
Ah yes, definitely a good point. Knowledge is power when it comes to how to use one's palette.

But as a corollary: a lot to be said for not dismissing/ignoring that the same kind of results can be achieved starting with a black paint... and sometimes there are better colours available* by this route.

Not most Impressionists...not most painters on location...and reading John F. Carlson on Landscape Painting, Edgar Payne, Emile Gruppe on and on would also show many opinions advising to stay away from the use of it.
They're all wrong :D

I still think that discarding black essentially is a 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' kind of thing. And if a black paint (which aren't all the same anyway of course) isn't quite right often the simplest method is to spice it up by mixing something else with it, instead of starting from scratch.

Tweaking a dark as you say, but just doing it a different way.

Especially if one has the right other paints available (i.e. not using a limited palette, which is, as the name suggests, limited) these black + another paint mixtures can be gorgeous, not at all the type of "dead", "killed" colour that we too often read.

Einion

*Comparisons of enriched blacks with mixed near-neutrals to try for anyone interested (I'd suggest using a carbon black here):
black + Quinacridone Rose v. Quin Rose + Phthalo Green YS
black + Pyrrole Red v. Pyrrole Red + Viridian (or Phthalo Green BS)
black + Phthalo Blue GS v. Phthalo Blue GS + Venetian Red
black + Dioxazine Purple v. Dioxazine Purple + Chromium Oxide Green
black + French Ultramarine v. French Ultramarine + Burnt Sienna

Brush each mix out thinly to see the chroma in undercolour + mix it with white to see the tint.

Richard Saylor
12-24-2007, 11:32 AM
I think I'm beginning to get it. I've always thought of black as an absolute, but a lot of people seem to think of it as another color similar to blue, red, yellow, etc. For example, just as there are green-blue, purple-blue, dark blue, light blue; there must also be green-black, red-black, blue-black, dark black, light black (hmmmm... :confused: ), etc. It almost seems to make sense, even though it doesn't really.

Richard

stoney
12-28-2007, 04:21 PM
I think I'm beginning to get it. I've always thought of black as an absolute, but a lot of people seem to think of it as another color similar to blue, red, yellow, etc. For example, just as there are green-blue, purple-blue, dark blue, light blue; there must also be green-black, red-black, blue-black, dark black, light black (hmmmm... :confused: ), etc. It almost seems to make sense, even though it doesn't really.

Richard

Mindset. Black is simply another colour many people treat differently than others. Due to convention, perhaps? The vast majority of the time I'll mix a tube black with other colours to shift it this way or that. Other times I'll use it as a very dark blue.

White is commonly seen with subtle tints of other colours. What reason is there to treat black differently?

Richard Saylor
12-28-2007, 05:55 PM
It's convention, probably. Terms like 'near black' or 'near white' would be a big improvement.

Richard

re-DICulous
12-30-2007, 08:08 PM
sorry about not keeping up with this stuff, guys. im new to the site and cant ficgure out how to quote out how to quote.

i like to keep things short. it keeps people like me focused.
anyway...

larry, you've got some rockin information and i am greatful for it. i'll let you know when i put it to some good use.

as for this quote:
" The important point in relation to the original question though: once you get light enough to see evident hue - regardless of how that colour is achieved - we're not talking about black any more"
-einion


i definatly agree. but i also think that when you want to make that black, black, you use it only as a speck. black has no information. thats why its so... black.... and why i asked how to mix my own. black out of the tube is nothing but a void. how - uninteresting. its like using white - if you want to make something in your painting glow, and i mean GLOW..... desaturated EVERYTHING else, and only use a speck of white and MAN it will glow

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1529/sargentcarnationts9.jpg


yes black has its uses. but i want to master painting without a dependency of it, being that you only need the magic 4. otherwise, i would have asked: how do you use black out of the tube?.

just outta curiosity, can i see some of your work with black einion?

stoney
12-30-2007, 08:39 PM
sorry about not keeping up with this stuff, guys. im new to the site and cant ficgure out how to quote out how to quote.



Bottom right corner of the post you're reading has the quote button. The left side button is for a reply without quoting.

Cheers.

re-DICulous
12-31-2007, 12:27 AM
Bottom right corner of the post you're reading has the quote button. The left side button is for a reply without quoting.

Cheers.

wow! check it out! and if you didnt quote me, i wouldnt have realized i dont check my writing! maybe i should start!

stoney
12-31-2007, 01:38 AM
wow! check it out! and if you didnt quote me, i wouldnt have realized i dont check my writing! maybe i should start!

chuckling...

mr.wiggles
12-31-2007, 09:31 AM
Everyone has such interesting ideas on Black paint. To use Black or not to use Black...

I like Ivory Black(or WB's Black Roman Earth) myself, sometimes I will add blue to it to make it move back in space. Black is a type of blue, a very dark one. I always have it on my palette, you can't mix a good neutral without it in my opinion.

Art history is filled with painters who used it: Frans Hals, Velásquez and Rembrandt come to mind as do Turner, Constable, Inness, Zorn, Manet and Sargent to name a few who had black on there palettes and used it to great effect.

I am an advocate of simplicity, it's cheaper to use black out of a tube than to mix it from expensive colors such as Cadmiums which at $30 a tube for a good brand is a lot higher than the $6 to $10 for the same size tube of Ivory Black.

This statement "i want more character to my blacks by mixing my own"
is interesting to me. It says more about how your thinking about painting than about the idea of using or not using black paint out of a tube.

" yes black has its uses. but i want to master painting without a dependency of it, being that you only need the magic 4"

This statement makes no sense to me, what is the magic 4? If you want to master painting then why would it matter that you used black or not for that matter. Would not mastering the craft of painting be the isssue and not what colors one uses. Should you not master color in genral and then make dessions based on logical ideas developed from studing?

Also your stating that using it makes you dependant, I am not sure why this is a problem, how is Black differant than say Ultramarine Blue in this context, is it not how one uses it that is the issue, not the abstract idea of the paint itself?

Larry mentions using a limited palette, this is a sound and rathional idea based on wanting to work in a certin way for a result based on an idea.

You use white paint and I am sorry for being presumptious, but lets assume you do. I don't see people saying their 'dependant' on that hue.
Why is this? Why is white good, and Black is bad? One could say that your 'dependant' on White more than Black. No?

If you want to learn to control paint why not do exercises with limited palettes. Such as doing small still lifes with White and Ultramarine Blue and Burnt Umbra. There are a lot variations on this idea. It's a good exercise and from time to time I'll do a few because it makes me think in a differant way. One can also paint in Black and White only, value studies.

I hardly ever use it straight out of the tube myself and I do not know of any painters who do. Except for accents in the shadows of objects that are moving away from the light source. Even then I might mix it with Permanent Alizarin and Ultramarine Blue.

Black is beautiful to me...

Links primary palettes that are good arguments on the problems with primary based palettes:

link1 (http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/palette4r.html)

link2 (http://rourkevisualart.com/wordpress/2006/12/12/the-color-theory-palette/)

ElsieH
12-31-2007, 10:30 AM
:wave: Lots of good stuff to think about here!:heart: :heart:
I have black in my box of tubes, but it rarely goes onto the palatte anymore.
I can get plenty of dark darks without it. But once in awhile, I find I just want very black for some small area and out it comes. However, more often, I mix it with some other color even there.

I had a teacher refer to black this way:
Use it if you want. Lots of old masters did.
But, it you are really looking at nature, you will see that unless you are painting in a cave at midnight, you just can't find real black. Even in the most hidden corners in a lighted day or a lighted room, the darkest darks are influenced by reflected light of some sort or reflected local color.

I guess you can approach it either way: take black and enrich it
or take darks and mix them effectively to get rich darks.

:lol: Being a bit of a rockhound, I have a little lump of coal here on the shelf beside my computer desk. Yep, even coal is not black!:lol: LOL

kolorkoded
12-31-2007, 10:51 AM
Try putting a small amount of black and mixing it with a birght color, this will give the birght color a cool dark effect. You should try it.

kolorkoded
12-31-2007, 10:55 AM
Try putting a small amount of black and mixing it with a bright color, this will give the bright color a cool dark effect. You should try it.

mr.wiggles
12-31-2007, 11:13 AM
The light we see in nature can not be reproduced with paint, you can't get the chroma high enough with pigments to be as bright as the sun or a cloud reflecting the defused light.

We can only come up with approximation's based on observation and pitching the painting to create the desired affect.

Ivory Black is not as dark as a cave that does not have a light source.
How could it be?

All paint is made from pigments and reflect light based on there composition.
I feel it is not good to present things as either or because it's not about the black paint, it's about understanding the principles of how pigments work in relation to color theory. It's not warm or cool, because that's very vague is it not? It's not just using primary colors as you will not be able to get an exact secondary without a lot of mixing. It is to me understanding how hue, value and chroma work in relation to what is observed.
So black is an arbitrary pigment, as is Cadmium Red. They each have position in color space.

re-DICulous
12-31-2007, 12:25 PM
alright alright. let me restate my question (because this turned into a " to use black or not to use black").

im not going to use black. period. i'll give it a shot when im ready to move on.

what are some good color combos to make warm and cool blacks (and yes, they are still black; this all depends on relativity to other colors on the canvas).

(and those magical 4: (primaries) blue, red, yellow, and white)


i still do appreciate the extra input! :wave:

Richard Saylor
12-31-2007, 01:20 PM
I don't use tube black, not because it is 'dead' but in the interest of minimalism (using only primaries and white).

If I want to mix as dark a 'black' as possible, I start with blue, then add a little red. (The value will drop abruptly.) I keep adding red until the mixture is as dark as possible. (I.e., adding any additional red will start to lighten the mixture.) Then add just a tiny bit of yellow. (A small amount of yellow will darken the mixture a bit and neutralize the purple. Too much yellow will lighten it.)

The mixture can be warmed by adding more red, cooled by adding more blue.

The primaries I generally use for this are quinacridone rose, ultramarine blue, and arylide yellow. Other primaries will also work. I'm not sure how cadmium red (and yellow, for that matter) would work in the mixture. I avoid cadmium red because it tends to make dull purples, and I like purple.

It is easiest to mix strong darks with very opaque media such as gouache or casein. Acrylics and oils are more transparent, so it helps to have a high pigment concentration.

Richard

mr.wiggles
12-31-2007, 02:21 PM
well I guess know one read the links.
Learning to paint should be about using a rational methodology that removes all vague terminology such as warm and cool which changes depending on different situations, unless your an abstract painter and that creates a differant set of rules from reperesentational painting.

Some brands have a Cad Orange that is one hue and others will have hue that is higher in chroma. Some pigments have more impurities than others ans this can change from brand to brand. All primaries are not created euqal.

Anyway one thing you could do is experiment with complementary mixing pairs:burnt sienna and ultramarine blue; pyrol ruby and viridian and so forth.

One great inexpensive paint I use is Transparent Oxide Red which you can use with Phthalo Blue or Prussian Blue. This can create a rich dark brown that can move into a black and it does not sink in like the Umbra's.

This is all related to oil painting, water based paints are whole other subject with problems that relate specificlly to them.

I have to say it there is no such thing as primaries; primary and secondary colour theory is just a convenient, easy way to explain one of the behaviours of physical colour- which is only part of the equation.
If you use the Munsell wheel you find it's all about HVC and that no color is any more important than another, you just find them in the physical colour space that they are in. It's all relative.
Once I got into this I found it very liberating as there is no need to think of palettes in the way one has been taught.
You can create palettes related what your painting.

Richard Saylor
12-31-2007, 07:05 PM
.....Learning to paint should be about using a rational methodology that removes all vague terminology such as warm and cool which changes depending on different situations.....Maybe so. However, when in Rome.....

.....All primaries are not created euqal.....Indeed? However, "...there is no such thing as primaries." --wiggles

.....This is all related to oil painting, water based paints are whole other subject with problems that relate specificlly to them.....I think it is rather the case that there are problems which relate specifically to oils that are not shared by watermedia, mostly concerning properties other than color.

I have to say it there is no such thing as primaries; primary and secondary colour theory is just a convenient, easy way to explain one of the behaviours of physical colour- which is only part of the equation.I like the idea of being strict about terminology, but there may be some communication advantages to being a bit slack in this regard. For example, if someone understands the term 'primaries' to refer to red, yellow, and blue, it may be expedient to adopt their terminology, at least temporarily. Similarly, one can communicate readily using the language of color temperature even if one does not believe in the concept. Of course, I could be wrong about this.

Richard

stoney
12-31-2007, 10:59 PM
well I guess know one read the links.

I read some and bookmarked them and a couple others.


Learning to paint should be about using a rational methodology that removes all vague terminology such as warm and cool which changes depending on different situations, unless your an abstract painter and that creates a differant set of rules from reperesentational painting.

Some brands have a Cad Orange that is one hue and others will have hue that is higher in chroma. Some pigments have more impurities than others ans this can change from brand to brand. All primaries are not created euqal.

Anyway one thing you could do is experiment with complementary mixing pairs:burnt sienna and ultramarine blue; pyrol ruby and viridian and so forth.

One great inexpensive paint I use is Transparent Oxide Red which you can use with Phthalo Blue or Prussian Blue. This can create a rich dark brown that can move into a black and it does not sink in like the Umbra's.

This is all related to oil painting, water based paints are whole other subject with problems that relate specificlly to them.

I have to say it there is no such thing as primaries; primary and secondary colour theory is just a convenient, easy way to explain one of the behaviours of physical colour- which is only part of the equation.
If you use the Munsell wheel you find it's all about HVC and that no color is any more important than another, you just find them in the physical colour space that they are in. It's all relative.
Once I got into this I found it very liberating as there is no need to think of palettes in the way one has been taught.
You can create palettes related what your painting.

I've got a sealed Munsell student kit coming at a used price.
I've also got Emille Gruppe's "Brushwork Techniques" coming in in hardback.

ElsieH
01-01-2008, 03:14 PM
:wave: Happy New Year!
I forgot to add to the above about another "black" I do use someitmes.
It is WN Neutral Tint. It is made up of black plus several other pigments.
It is quite dark, but has interesting half-tones.

mr.wiggles
01-02-2008, 01:03 AM
What I mean when I say there are no primaries is that I like to about think about color as relative to it's environment. For example if your painting a lemon for instance at first glance you could say it is yellow. Well you could also say that yellow is a primary color. This is true as a term, but as you start to study this lemon it seems to be more yellow/orange moving into yellow/red. As it moves into the shadow mass it is more of a Y/R hue only with less chroma as it is moving away from the light.

If you observe these subtle shifts of hues than it would stand to reason that it's not a pure primary yellow, which would mean that you could not use a violet complementary exclusively in the mix to create the neutral as the red componiant even if it is very slight will denote this.

I try to think in terms of hues and how they are related to each other, how does the light effect it and so on. By removing absolute terminology such as primary and secondary I can analyze what I am painting and make more educated decisions on how to paint it instead of guessing what to mix.

I just prefer working this way myself if I can and the more I study color theory the more it becomes evident that the Munsell color wheel makes the most sense to me as a tool to describe how color functions.
It's very liberating in some ways as it seems to me to be more open ended as a way of defining color.

LarrySeiler
01-02-2008, 11:16 AM
alright alright. let me restate my question (because this turned into a " to use black or not to use black").

im not going to use black. period. i'll give it a shot when im ready to move on.

what are some good color combos to make warm and cool blacks (and yes, they are still black; this all depends on relativity to other colors on the canvas).

(and those magical 4: (primaries) blue, red, yellow, and white)


i still do appreciate the extra input! :wave:

thought I was to the point on that...but, not going back to look, perhaps I missed..

I have Utrecht French Ultramarine Blue, Utrecht Cadmium Lemon Yellow, W&N Bright Red, and titanium white as my main paints. Sometimes include Naples Yellow...sometimes viridian.

To make darks or my blacks I use the Fr Ultramarine Blue...a bit of red to learn warm, and a touch of yellow to control the blue/red (violet) development, to take a just bit of the power of that violet out.

With the control of yellow I can keep my dark this way warmer...

Another option is Fr Ultramarine blue...a bit of viridian...and use red to control the blue/green development.

I keep the paints purer...less diluted with medium for richest darks.

With the shortest time of practice your black can lean to a blue/violet, a reddish/violet, a bluish-green...and so forth to suggest color temperature, or lean the dark to contrast with adjacent color by its position on the color wheel...an opposite for example.

boomerbeach
01-02-2008, 05:12 PM
I will second some aforementioned comments about "Paynes Gray", which I have much enjoyed adding to my palette in recent weeks. Windsor & Newton tube indicates a mix of UMB and several other colors, which I already use. (Yes, I'm too lazy to mix 'em" myself). That's kool as it's a derivative of already used colors and easy to make darker/lighter and mix with other colors. I have found it excellent to mix with other earth-tones to match rock colors/textures of my knife work, also, the lighter grays in cloudy skies, etc...
boomerbeach in SoCal

gunzorro
01-04-2008, 10:29 AM
Boomerbeach -- most Paynes Grey is a mix of Ultramarine Blue and BLACK (sometimes a little white is added). The poster wants, emphatically, to stay away from black.
I second Mr. Wiggles' suggestion of Transparent Red Oxide and a dark transparent blue -- I like both he suggests.

Why is it you are avoiding black so fiercely? The beauty of black is that it doesn't have any "character" and allows the colors to be cleanly shaded, instead of worrying if your mix is slightly shifted in one direction or another.

Richard Saylor
01-04-2008, 08:36 PM
Boomerbeach -- most Paynes Grey is a mix of Ultramarine Blue and BLACK (sometimes a little white is added). The poster wants, emphatically, to stay away from black.It's interesting that so many people who avoid black use Payne's Gray. According to the WN web site, their Payne's Gray (in Artists' Oils) consists of Powdered slate, Complex sodium alumino-silicate containing sulphur, Synthetic iron oxide, Carbon black. (Carbon black is the pigment for Lampblack.)

.....The beauty of black is that it doesn't have any "character" and allows the colors to be cleanly shaded, instead of worrying if your mix is slightly shifted in one direction or another.Actually, adding black can cause hue shifts, such as yellow to green, but that's no reason not to use it.

Richard

Einion
01-04-2008, 09:41 PM
With your initial request it wasn't clear what you were looking for:
dark neutral;
dark near-neutral (unsaturated dark colour);
very dark-valued but hue still visible in masstone (saturated dark colour);
black mixture in masstone, or as near as makes no odds, but with evident hue in undercolour/tint only).

It's still not, really - "warm and cool blacks" isn't unequivocal - although I'm sure you know exactly what it is you'd like here.

But anyway, are you looking for suggestions on colours you'd be interested in buying for this purpose? If not, could you list your palette please.

Einion

gunzorro
01-05-2008, 02:04 AM
Richard -- . . . and that synthetic iron oxide is probably Mars Black as well! ;)

Of course you are right about black being applied to yellows, particularly bright yellows will make some wonderful greens. I don't know that it is causing a hue shift so much as bringing out the predominant green that is in the yellow color. Maybe someone knows a bit more about that aspect.

Richard Saylor
01-05-2008, 03:16 AM
Richard -- . . . and that synthetic iron oxide is probably Mars Black as well! ;)

Of course you are right about black being applied to yellows, particularly bright yellows will make some wonderful greens. I don't know that it is causing a hue shift so much as bringing out the predominant green that is in the yellow color. Maybe someone knows a bit more about that aspect.The blacks all seem to have a very flat spectral reflectance (no single hue predominates), so it is hard to account for it's bringing out the green in yellow. For now it may remain a mystery.

Richard

GH-Mongo
01-07-2008, 05:16 PM
Generally my colour choices tend to be neutralized anyway, so I'm not all that opposed to using black for mixing. I'll mix a black from Phthalocyanine Green (PG7) and Perylene Maroon (PR179) if I need a dark neutral for glazing.

dcorc
01-07-2008, 06:01 PM
Of course you are right about black being applied to yellows, particularly bright yellows will make some wonderful greens. I don't know that it is causing a hue shift so much as bringing out the predominant green that is in the yellow color. Maybe someone knows a bit more about that aspect.

The blacks all seem to have a very flat spectral reflectance (no single hue predominates), so it is hard to account for it's bringing out the green in yellow. For now it may remain a mystery.


Its not a mystery.

Low-value yellows are perceived as "olive-greens":
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jan-2008/30792-olive.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jan-2008/30792-5Y.jpg

Which, incidentally, is why mixing your own greens is so commonplace, because many natural world "greens" are not actually true greens, but are mid-to-low value yellows and green-yellows.


Dave

Richard Saylor
01-07-2008, 08:59 PM
.....Low-value yellows are perceived as "olive-greens".....You're right. I wasn't thinking. :o

Richard

Patrick1
01-07-2008, 09:37 PM
When you mix yellow + black paints, you not only get an obvious apparent hue shift towards green, but an actual hue shift as well. Taking a photo or a scan, and then sampling the colors will show this slight actual hue shift.

Einion
01-09-2008, 08:20 AM
Patrick and I discussed this a few years ago we confirmed that you get a real shift in hue toward green, not merely an apparent one, and we've posted a few times since that this is the case. Obviously it varies with pigment but using certain yellows and blacks the greenness is more obvious.

The best proof of the pudding might be that this also occurs with some orange-yellows and oranges, where the actual low-chroma examples of the respective hue would be brown-grey or brownish, not greenish as you actually can get.

So why this happens with black pigments, given their flat reflectance, does still remain a mystery :)

Einion

dcorc
01-09-2008, 09:13 AM
Patrick and I discussed this a few years ago we confirmed that you get a real shift in hue toward green, not merely an apparent one, and we've posted a few times since that this is the case.

Can you refer us to some posts where the data for this is shown, please? I don't doubt, in general, that hue shifts can occur in paint mixing - just that if someone's already done the scans as Patrick suggested, and previously posted them, it would be the fastest way to see it actually demonstrated and verified.

Taking a photo or a scan, and then sampling the colors will show this slight actual hue shift.

I'm curious to know what the extent of such a shift might be.


Dave

Einion
01-09-2008, 09:00 PM
Can you refer us to some posts where the data for this is shown, please?
Unfortunately not; I just got it confirmed by someone that owns a spectrophotometer ;)

I'm curious to know what the extent of such a shift might be.
That is a key question yes.

Visual comparative tests await us all :)

Related thread here:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360791

Also referred to in this thread (prior to confirmation if memory serves):
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296570

Einion

Patrick1
01-10-2008, 01:19 AM
Dave, here is a sample from a posting in the first thread Einion mentioned above. It's Hansa Yellow Light + Mars Black.

gunzorro
01-10-2008, 02:26 PM
The brighter the yellow, the more significant the green appearance, when mixed with black.
Some dark brown earths like Van Dyke Brown and Raw Umber will make a green with bright yellows.
Cadmium Lemon and Pale provide some of the most brilliant green combinations.

re-DICulous
01-12-2008, 08:35 PM
let me restate my question again, because i've only found accidental slivers of the information i'm looking for.

here it goes:

what are the EXACT OPPOSITES of certain colors and their color brands (which, in theory, when mixed should make a NEUTRAL BLACK). i know stephan quiller has this information listed on the back of the watercolors, but watercolors aren't oils, nor are they the same over the huge spectrum of brands.

those of you that have listed some of these color combos, thank you. you're awesome. but honestly, i just want a list. that's it.

blondheim12
01-12-2008, 10:20 PM
I've been a location painter for almost 20 years and and a studio landscape painter for about 30 years. I like black, so not all outdoor painters are afraid of it. It makes some very yummy mixes, lovely grays, blues, browns and olives in greens. I've been playing with the Zorn palette, modified by adding FUB to the mix and I love it. I'm totally comfy with black in my palette, but of course, have no worries leaving it out too. The whole angst over black seems silly to me. I don't think we should limit our resources.
Love,
Linda

re-DICulous
01-12-2008, 10:47 PM
i'm not commiting sucide here. i'm not trying to get somebody to talk me out of this this either. i would just like to experiment with the rule of no tube black. i thought i cleared this up. for the love of god - is a list of specific complimentary colors too much to ask for?

Mike Finn
01-12-2008, 11:49 PM
is a list of specific complimentary colors too much to ask for?

I feel your pain :)

Ok to kick it off here's two that I use depending on palette chosen for the day.

Burnt sienna (pr101) and Ultramarine Blue (pb29)
Permanent Rose (pv19) and Phthalo Green (pg7)

There is a sticky thread somewhere I remember that gives more/other options.

Mike Finn

blondheim12
01-13-2008, 10:14 AM
Here are a couple of alternative darks to black:

FUB with Trans Red Iron Oxide
Prussian Blue with Trans Red Iron Oxide
Sap Green with Alizarin Crimson

Love,
Linda

Einion
01-13-2008, 11:32 PM
let me restate my question again, because i've only found accidental slivers of the information i'm looking for.
That might be because you're not reading the responses you're getting thoroughly enough. For instance you were asked for information at the bottom of page 2 that would have helped get answers much more along the lines of what you were looking for.

i'm not commiting sucide here. i'm not trying to get somebody to talk me out of this this either. i would just like to experiment with the rule of no tube black. i thought i cleared this up.
Posters have no control over how other members will choose to try to help with their answers ;)

In a venue such as this it's a good idea to leave room for the fact that respondents who, having more experience, are trying to save questioners some time/effort/trouble/expense, especially when it comes to not avoiding something that doesn't need to be avoided - as you're looking for a mixture that's black or as close as possible (not a chromatic dark of one kind or another) there is little-to-no difference in painting terms whether you use a mix or a tube black except that the mixture will generally cost more; sometimes a lot more.

what are the EXACT OPPOSITES of certain colors and their color brands (which, in theory, when mixed should make a NEUTRAL BLACK).
...
for the love of god - is a list of specific complimentary colors too much to ask for?
If might be! As has been mentioned a number of times just recently - and as you might be aware yourself judging from your post that mentions Stephen Quiller - the exact examples of two pigments are often important in how they mix.

So another oil painter recommending Quinacridone Rose + Viridian, Perinone Orange + Phthalo Blue GS, Pyrrole Red + Phthalo Green YS, French Ultramarine + Burnt Sienna, as good mixtures for this purpose might not be as helpful as you'd think... assuming you have those pairs of pigments in the first place.

These previous threads from the Oil Painting forum should be of further help:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202563
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47143

Einion