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View Full Version : Piracy and Copywrite Infringement (again)


mame
06-15-2002, 11:54 AM
Just a heads up to all who sell/exhibit via cyberspace.

AmyH found this browsing art at ebay. Look familiar?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=884895624

If you are not familiar with Dom's work, this is an exact copy of one of his Railroad Crossing series(although a very poor attempt at it).

I alerted Dom and also emailed the seller/artist advising him that while browsing his work I came across this blatant copywrite infringement.

I don't have the URL handy but to see the original search "Joe Santos" in google and you'll get to Dom's(Joe's) web site.

CHEEKY! Sheesh!

kjsspot
06-15-2002, 01:42 PM
How TERRIBLE! Cheeky is too nice of a word for this.

sandge
06-15-2002, 01:45 PM
:eek: How brazen!

Certainly lacks the master's touch. Here's a link to the real thing:
http://pages.prodigy.net/domsanto/19.htm

kjsspot
06-15-2002, 01:50 PM
LoL Yeah, it's a nice painting... UNTIL you see the original! BIG difference!

arlene
06-15-2002, 01:59 PM
I hope dom let's ebay know too. I wouldn't mind writing ebay about it...

come to think of it, this guy's lighthouse looks a bit too familiar too.

I actually did write this guy and ebay about it. None of us should tolerate it as it hurts us all.

Luckily we have many eyes here on wetcanvas to pick up on this thing...but unfortunately we won't get all.

dk_art
06-15-2002, 02:16 PM
Perhaps we should all write in questions to this seller. Doesn't that show up for anyone to see :evil: ,,,, we could ask questions like " how come this looks like it's been ripped off from this artist's work" :evil:

But really this is annoying and very low ... :mad:

kjsspot
06-15-2002, 02:20 PM
Well, Arlene, I wrote SafeHarbor about it. I don't know if they'll do anything cause I'm not the original artist, but we shall see.

iyoung
06-15-2002, 03:02 PM
If you look in his past sales you'll see he's already sold at least one other of this painting, too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=868140952

Unbelievable that mame found this. What a sleuth!



I.

mame
06-15-2002, 03:07 PM
I Young - it was AmyH who found it doing some research re ebay art sites. I'm trying very, very hard to stay away from ebay. Got a little carried away with vintage Chinese Opera costumes......:D

arlene
06-15-2002, 03:24 PM
if i was really a witch i'd write the guy who purchased it the first time...but don't want to hurt my reputation...i did write the guy and i wrote ebay about it.

kjsspot
06-15-2002, 03:34 PM
Same here Arlene. =)

domsanto
06-15-2002, 03:37 PM
Thanks to Amy and Mame on this one.

I emailed the guy but haven't heard back from him yet. I also emailed the buyer of the "Crossing" piece, As you can see from the link Ilene provided the image is no longer valid. I asked the buyer of "Crossing" if he could supply me with an image of the piece so I can see if I was ripped-off on that one too.

Thanks to you guys for also emailing this guy and letting him know that people are on to him.

domsanto
06-15-2002, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by iyoung
If you look in his past sales you'll see he's already sold at least one other of this painting, too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=868140952

Unbelievable that mame found this. What a sleuth!



I.

From the size and format of the image on that page, I suspect he copied another of my pieces. I wrote the buyer in hopes of finding out for sure.

kjsspot
06-15-2002, 03:46 PM
Dom, I can't believe someone would be this blatent. Ugh. And did you see in his listing where it says, "The piece is hand signed and guaranteed to be a one of a kind original. " Grrrr... I told him that I'd be watching him and that I hope you sue his pants off. heh

AmyH
06-15-2002, 08:43 PM
Ideas are free, and thinking railroads would be cool to paint, like a barn, or a pond, is fine, if you DO IT YOUR OWN WAY, and don't steal someone elses, comp, color, medium...well...everything but talent LOL ;) !

Copying art TO EDUCATE yourself, is comendable, giving CREDIT to the original author is a MUST.

This type of thing infuriates me, and its not the first I have found. I once found a guy scanning nudes, directly from a book on anatomy, by Louise Gordon. He actually had the gall to say these were drawings of a friend of his! I e-mailed him, and told him I was contacting the author. Sadly, he confessed that he copied them (did studies), more lies, they were direct scans from the book, every line matching to a tea. Not to mention, he had some of his own stuff up on the site as well, and the quality compared was so bad, it was laughable!

What is it that drives people like this? What satisfaction? Odd. Very odd.

Makes me wonder how many go print nice paintings on watercolor paper of others work, and try to pass it off as thier own. Inkjet printing is getting so good, some people with "less than trained" eyes, can be fooled. I saw it when I worked in the rerographics field. A guy once came in, to see if an original collectable coca cola litho, hailing form cokes first days, was real, or a color copy (he couldn't tell!) they handed me a lupe and said is it authentic? I said; I don't need the lupe, it's a phoney 100% garanteed. Guy was bummin', he'd already paid for it, I hope he sued.

I say, send the guy a link to this thread.

amy

Paintbrush74
06-15-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by AmyH

I say, send the guy a link to this thread.

amy

Are you talking about the guy who copied? If you do THAT, he'll have access to ALL of our art!!!!!!!!

AAAAAHHHHHHHhhh!!!!!!!!!!

CarlyHardy
06-15-2002, 11:40 PM
This artist has an excellent feedback record at ebay, too and has been selling there since '97. Now you have to wonder about all those paintings and if they are really his creations!

Dom, glad you found this and can hopefully get the situation dealt with.
carly

mame
06-15-2002, 11:58 PM
Just got a response from this gentleman and he said he had painted this work three years ago and was contacting his attorney because dom was the one doing the copying...

I have not answered this guys email but sent a copy to dom.

He did however, close the bidding on it......

kjsspot
06-16-2002, 12:23 AM
He sent me the same. Why would he close the bidding on it if he were not in the wrong?

AmyH
06-16-2002, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by mame
Just got a response from this gentleman and he said he had painted this work three years ago and was contacting his attorney because dom was the one doing the copying...

I have not answered this guys email but sent a copy to dom.

He did however, close the bidding on it......


bluff

arlene
06-16-2002, 03:42 AM
he needs to prove he painted it 3 yrs ago...he didnt respond back to me, but then again he knows i sent a copy of the email to ebay...btw i ilene thinks his magnolia is a rip off from an artist mag cover last year, and i think i remember the barn in the snow from someone here who was doing a lesson from a book...she admitted it and let it known it was only to learn.

Santos
06-16-2002, 04:26 AM
Auction has been closed. That says it all.

AmyH
06-16-2002, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by Paintbrush74


Are you talking about the guy who copied? If you do THAT, he'll have access to ALL of our art!!!!!!!!

AAAAAHHHHHHHhhh!!!!!!!!!!

he already has access. what he needs to *know* is we look, and see what he is doing, and he is accountable. why not just give aritsts who's work you admire enough to copy, credit? seems simple enough.

study after; (insert artists name here). still can sell, still can be proud of your effort.

JeffG
06-16-2002, 10:19 AM
I cant' tell you how much this burns me up.

That guy is a terrible artist and an even worse human being.

What a weasle.

timelady
06-16-2002, 01:03 PM
Weird response, I mean who would want to copy that? I looked at the auction first and just though "hmmm. Railroad signs. Whatever." Not impressed, thought it was a pretty weak subject anyway. THEN I looked at Dom's - far superior, great tones and depth. He makes a railroad crossing sign look interesting. :)

Tina.

Dave Carter
06-16-2002, 01:44 PM
I have to wonder where he got access to the original? Dom's website? E-bay? Or possibly (shirks with horror!!) wetcanvas? If this person is a member of wetcanvas we need to know!!!!!

I looked at his current sales and the lighthouse and snow scenes did look familiar though I do not know from where (lighthouse paintings tend to look much alike so that one would be in conclusive). We should copy all the photos he has on e-bay and start passing them around...I'm sure if these are copies we can find the sources!

iyoung
06-16-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by AmyH


What is it that drives people like this? What satisfaction? Odd. Very odd.

amy

Yeh, this was the topic of our conversation round our usual table in Chinatown Saturday night too. Hard to believe someone would go to all that trouble and violate someone else just to score a possible $50.00 (minus listing fees etc) selling art on ebay. It's certainly not the prestige - there is no prestige. Can't just be the money. If you care about money you'd sell almost anything other than art.

We came up with no answers.

I

cagathoc
06-16-2002, 07:43 PM
The guy is sad, very sad.

Sorry this crappy thing happened to you, Joe. Kind of sickening seeing his version of your art...

Paintbrush74
06-16-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by AmyH


he already has access. what he needs to *know* is we look, and see what he is doing, and he is accountable. why not just give aritsts who's work you admire enough to copy, credit? seems simple enough.

study after; (insert artists name here). still can sell, still can be proud of your effort.


Yes, you are so right. He does need to know that we are watching.

geckonia
06-16-2002, 10:47 PM
Joe, I'm sorry this happened to you. It must be quite disturbing. I hope you are fully compensated. Thanks Amy/Mame for bringing this matter to everyone's attention.

Originally posted by AmyH
why not just give aritsts who's work you admire enough to copy, credit? seems simple enough. study after; (insert artists name here). still can sell, still can be proud of your effort.

This caught my eye as I was reading through this thread. It's my understanding that a study as you discribe, done without permission, would be a derivitive work and an infringement of the original artist's copyright regardless of credit. I haven't read anything in the copyright law that says this is legal. Anyone know?

pixelscapes
06-17-2002, 03:42 PM
Geckonia,
Yeah, you're right, that infringes copyright law. You can do studies of the works of "old masters" because they're in the public domain, though.

-=- Jen

El_Elegante
06-18-2002, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by geckonia
Joe, I'm sorry this happened to you. It must be quite disturbing. I hope you are fully compensated. Thanks Amy/Mame for bringing this matter to everyone's attention.



This caught my eye as I was reading through this thread. It's my understanding that a study as you discribe, done without permission, would be a derivitive work and an infringement of the original artist's copyright regardless of credit. I haven't read anything in the copyright law that says this is legal. Anyone know?

To my knowledge, and I this has been heavily debated here, copying a work in a literal sense, and selling it is only permitted if it is done for the purposes of artistic expression. This is allowed because one of art's primary functions is to critique and react to our society and the world. For example if this guy was making a statement about doms work... and had blood dripping down the very precicely copied railroad sign.. he could successfully argue that he is excercising his artistic freedom to react in some way to dom's work.. Much of Warhols work is also a good example of when this direct copying of an image or trademark is permissable. I don't know the all details of the law, although I have read most of the california statute...

I have not seen the picture.. but if it is nothing more than I direct copy of dom's work... it is a clear copywrite violation.

anyway.. what a terrible thing.. Good luck resolving this dom.. nice to see WCers watching out for one another.

Aselka
06-18-2002, 05:48 PM
It would be useful for us, artists to know how this issue is going to be resolved.

Aselka

arlene
06-18-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by El_Elegante


I have not seen the picture.. but if it is nothing more than I direct copy of dom's work... it is a clear copywrite violation.



it was obviously traced from the internet. Anotherwords, everything was verbatum to what the original was...except the copy wasn't as well executed. If you superimposed one over the other, they'd be the same.

Santos
06-18-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by arlene


it was obviously traced from the internet. Anotherwords, everything was verbatum to what the original was...except the copy wasn't as well executed. If you superimposed one over the other, they'd be the same.

Yeah, the thing that suprised me the most was that it seemed to be traced, and traced badly.

AmyH
06-18-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by geckonia
Joe, I'm sorry this happened to you. It must be quite disturbing. I hope you are fully compensated. Thanks Amy/Mame for bringing this matter to everyone's attention.



This caught my eye as I was reading through this thread. It's my understanding that a study as you discribe, done without permission, would be a derivitive work and an infringement of the original artist's copyright regardless of credit. I haven't read anything in the copyright law that says this is legal. Anyone know?

ah, I see, not sure. good question.

AmyH
06-18-2002, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by pixelscapes
Geckonia,
Yeah, you're right, that infringes copyright law. You can do studies of the works of "old masters" because they're in the public domain, though.

-=- Jen

that makes sense. :D

louise279
06-20-2002, 01:30 PM
I have not seen the picture in question and i am NOT commenting on this particular instance but is this copyright issue soon going to go to far!?

This is something i keep meaning to ask.

How long is it going to be before you cannot paint a subject because someone else has painted it?
For example say I paint a black cat looking at a pink daisy flower and sitting on a mat (just as an example) and someone else at about the same time paints a cat also looking at a pink daisy and sitting on a mat who gets the 'right' to sue the other - i mean it is a pretty common subject and could be conceived by just about anyone.
What about paintings of the sea? Waves are all basically the same no matter where in the world they are- how do I know some one else in some far off obscure country has not painted a similar wave and will sue me just because I have also painted one that looks similar?

There are only so many subjects to paint in the world and thousands upon thousands of artists is it any wonder that sometimes pictures will look 'similar'

Obviously copyright is a fine line and presumably either you have to have dated proof of when you did the painting or be a very well known artist and have loads of money behind you to win the case if you were being sued.

sandge
06-20-2002, 02:39 PM
Louise, I think you might find Chick Levitin's explanation of derivative works interesting. Take a look here:
another (c) question (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41736)

El_Elegante
06-20-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by louise279
I have not seen the picture in question and i am NOT commenting on this particular instance but is this copyright issue soon going to go to far!?

This is something i keep meaning to ask.

How long is it going to be before you cannot paint a subject because someone else has painted it?
I have also painted one that looks similar?

You can paint it the very next day if you wish, and you can sell it. The problem arrises when someone directly copies a work... not a subject. If 5 people do a drawing from the same angle of the same model in a class, and all decide to sell them... who cares... now if one person draws a model.. and someone copies their drawing of the model... that is a problem. the likleyhood of this guy coincedentally painting the exact same scenes, at the exact same angles as Dom is a trillion to one. It is pretty clear he took them directly from dom's work. and that is copywrite infringement.

He is perfectly allowed to go to the nearest railroad tracks and do his own series if he wants...

arlene
06-21-2002, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by louise279
I have not seen the picture in question and i am NOT commenting on this particular instance but is this copyright issue soon going to go to far!?

This is something i keep meaning to ask.

How long is it going to be before you cannot paint a subject because someone else has painted it?
For example say I paint a black cat looking at a pink daisy flower and sitting on a mat (just as an example) and someone else at about the same time paints a cat also looking at a pink daisy and sitting on a mat who gets the 'right' to sue the other - i mean it is a pretty common subject and could be conceived by just about anyone.
What about paintings of the sea? Waves are all basically the same no matter where in the world they are- how do I know some one else in some far off obscure country has not painted a similar wave and will sue me just because I have also painted one that looks similar?

There are only so many subjects to paint in the world and thousands upon thousands of artists is it any wonder that sometimes pictures will look 'similar'

Obviously copyright is a fine line and presumably either you have to have dated proof of when you did the painting or be a very well known artist and have loads of money behind you to win the case if you were being sued.

plain and simple louise, when you trace someones work exactly and call it your own, IT'S COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

I strongly suggest you read through the copyright laws, because if you do, you'll see that ideas cannot be copyrighted, only how they're executed.

Azure Wings
06-23-2002, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by arlene


plain and simple louise, when you trace someones work exactly and call it your own, IT'S COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

I strongly suggest you read through the copyright laws, because if you do, you'll see that ideas cannot be copyrighted, only how they're executed.

And trying to profit by stealing someone else's work (it is indeed theft, if it is taken without permission) is criminal activity....

Ginette
06-23-2002, 11:29 AM
Good for you Amy on being so alert to find this.

I must say "Rip Off Artists" are all over the place.
I have gotten gray hair over some stuff they pulled on very good friends of mine.
Nothing gets me as hot under the collar than "No Talent of their own thieves"

I've been around in the music biz a bit longer then in the visual art world.
Recording artists friends of mine, especially in the Soul/R&B world get ripped off every day.
Friends send us CD's with recordings that match word for word bar for bar to originals songs others wrote.
Often they are recorded by Jamaican artists, they just slap a Jamaican rhythm on and call it their own. One could be a full time detective and have am attorney on 24/7 retainer to just deal with copyright infringement.

Now it's getting just as bad in the visual art world.

Especially with he arrival of superb digital reproduction devises that any "Blow Joe" can use.

I have a Digimark watersign number that I can use to embed in pictures that are on my web site.

They can be traced. Had no problems so far. Maybe because my work sucks, so none wants to copy it in the first place.... just kidding.

I will keep my eyes peeled for this sort of thing too. I bookmarked this guys page and will check back to see if I see something familar.

Kind regards
Ginette

Ginette
06-23-2002, 11:45 AM
To create dated proof of ones own work,
One could just make photos, scans of the work,
burn them to CD or make one print each put them in an envelope with a notarized letter to the creation of the work.
Mail it to oneself and keep the envelope when it arrives unopened in case the dated proof is ever needed.

I know songwriters do that often, especially the ones that don't want (or can't afford) to pay the $30.00 per song for registering the work with the Library of Congress.

Ginette

mame
06-23-2002, 12:21 PM
...and for those of you who choose not to date your work ON the work, think again.

arlene
06-23-2002, 12:58 PM
mame all that's needed for a date is the year, correct?

I date all my work on the white area under the original with a copyright symbol, then the date, then my name.

mame
06-23-2002, 08:00 PM
I think so, arlene. I put the month also. It helps me keep track better. Including the month might be forsight if you ever have to provide proof of authenticity/originality.

louise279
06-24-2002, 08:29 AM
How does dating the actual work prove anything?
surely someone who wanted to make a 'copy' could eaisly write the date on their work as earlier than the art work they are copying!?

El_Elegante
06-24-2002, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by mame
...and for those of you who choose not to date your work ON the work, think again.
It would be easy for someone to simply put an earlier date on their copy of your work. Also, puting the copywrite symbol on your work gives you no added protection from copywrite infringement. It is not necessary in artwork to do so. and in the opinion of most in the artworld, it detracts strongly from the work.

mame
06-24-2002, 09:08 AM
True, louise. Not a guarantee but dated work combined with invoice date for photography of slides combined with date the work entered gallery inventory might carry additional weight.

All speculation of course on my part never having been confronted with copywrite infringement.

El - where the hell did you get "...the opinion of most of the art world"? Who exactly is this "art world" of whom you speak?
You are surely joking.


PS - of course it's a moot question if the piracy/copywrite infringement is not discovered/apprehended.

El_Elegante
06-24-2002, 11:06 AM
Mame I am not joking at all, it is well documented that many famous artists did not sign their works simply because they felt it detracted from the image... a copywrite symbol is even more detracting. While I cannot back up my statement, I'd be willing to place a large wager on it. if anyone is willing to throwdown $1000 on a bet, I'll take a survey of 100 museum currators and high end gallery owners and see if they feel a copywrite symbol detracts from an image.

Further more, a copywrite symbol in the case of a painting adds no added security or legal protection from a copywrite infringement... so adding it to a painting is as arbitrary as drawing a smily face in the corner of a work.... and due to it's association with "products, marketing, bussiness, etc..." It probably detracts more than a smiley face would.

re dating a work, it has little use in copywriting a painting.... when used in other things such as literature, the book is registered with the library of congress etc... and dated for reference.... when a case comes up in court, the lawyer is not going to pull out a copy of the book and point at the date, he is going to get a copy from the library of congress proving that it was copywrited on that date.... you could register images and paintings there as well, but few people bother. It is a bit pricey and redundant to go around registering everything you paint. works of art are copywrited upon creation... the best thing you can do is have documentation of the time of creation.... and a date is nothing, anyone can add a date.

mame
06-24-2002, 11:34 AM
Hey, El.

Not talking about a copywrite mark but signing and dating a painting.

No big deal. Sign and date your work or don't. Perhaps it's a matter of personal ego and methods of record keeping.

I like seeing my name/date of execution smack dab on the front of one of mine hanging on that gallery wall.

:D

El_Elegante
06-24-2002, 12:19 PM
sorry mame, thought you were talking about the copywrite symbol. Most people have no issues with signing work, with the exception of a few mostly post moderns, or abstract expressionists... although I have heard of others who liked to think they were so unique they didn't need too. Dating it? typically not frowned upon, I choose to use other means of documenting it's date myself. but no biggie. some people like it. I own one painting that was dated 1950, it is cool to know how old it is.

Modesto
06-24-2002, 01:29 PM
Just an idea....post your work to a web page and then submit the page to http://www.archive.org/ the "Wayback Machine" will date the page and your work.

El_Elegante
06-24-2002, 02:02 PM
cool site... thanks for sharing... I found that it has archived a good chunk of my website... it may come in handy if I cant recover my hard drives after my server crashed last week.

arlene
06-24-2002, 02:40 PM
that's the same site that took and archived my site without my permission. Thanks I'll stay away from them. If they won't even ask permission to archive, then who knows what else they'll be willing to do?

El_Elegante
06-24-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by arlene
that's the same site that took and archived my site without my permission. Thanks I'll stay away from them. If they won't even ask permission to archive, then who knows what else they'll be willing to do?
Arlene, Google, the worlds most popular search engine has also archived your site, along with many other major internet companies... if you don't want your site archived there is a proper protocal to follow. you need to create a file called robots.txt in your main directory. there are a few very simple text commands that you can learn to allow or disallow scaning and archiving of your site. They did nothing wrong, immoral, or illegal by archiving a publicly available site. This is the agreed upon format for the world wide web, if you did not know about this policy, you have no one but yourself to blame. If you want to avoid it in the future, find a website about robots.txt and add one to your site. It is typically to your advantage to have anyone and everyone archive your site, and save it's info to your database... it will result in more hits to your site.

Modesto
06-24-2002, 04:26 PM
I can see several advantages but, I'm unsure how it might hurt?

Azure Wings
06-25-2002, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by El_Elegante
Mame I am not joking at all, it is well documented that many famous artists did not sign their works simply because they felt it detracted from the image... a copywrite symbol is even more detracting. While I cannot back up my statement, I'd be willing to place a large wager on it. if anyone is willing to throwdown $1000 on a bet, I'll take a survey of 100 museum currators and high end gallery owners and see if they feel a copywrite symbol detracts from an image.

Further more, a copywrite symbol in the case of a painting adds no added security or legal protection from a copywrite infringement... so adding it to a painting is as arbitrary as drawing a smily face in the corner of a work.... and due to it's association with "products, marketing, bussiness, etc..." It probably detracts more than a smiley face would.

re dating a work, it has little use in copywriting a painting.... when used in other things such as literature, the book is registered with the library of congress etc... and dated for reference.... when a case comes up in court, the lawyer is not going to pull out a copy of the book and point at the date, he is going to get a copy from the library of congress proving that it was copywrited on that date.... you could register images and paintings there as well, but few people bother. It is a bit pricey and redundant to go around registering everything you paint. works of art are copywrited upon creation... the best thing you can do is have documentation of the time of creation.... and a date is nothing, anyone can add a date.

You don't have to have a copyright symbol on the front of your painting in order to have the copyright. If you created it, unless you give, sell, or license the copyrights to someone else, they are yours. (I do sign my work on the front - very small - though I didn't until a few years ago. I write the title, copyright symbol, year, and my name on the back, however. I began signing my work after I read a local newspaper issue focusing on open studio weekends, which included little interviews with locals who collected artwork from the artists during their studio visits. One fellow, an attorney and apparently avid collector, described vividly his favorite piece - but couldn't remember who the artist was. I want them to remember me!)

If you can prove you created the work in court, should a case get to that point, you should win. HOWEVER, unless you have registered your work with the Copyright Office, you cannot get back your court costs and attorney fees, which can be pretty pricey - prohibitively so, if you don't have a wad of money available when you need it. If you do have your work registered, you can win costs as well as compensation.

You can register more than one work at a time, too. You can print up images of all your work for the last ten years, and register it as "The Artwork of Moi, 1992 -2002," all for the same fee.

(BTW, I really have posted here before. It's just been a very long time, and it's been under different screennames, which I couldn't remember once I'd been away for awhile.)

Question: Has anyone complained to Ebay about this man's violation of other's copyrights? This is illegal activity; I would think, in the interest of legality, Ebay ought to revoke his sales privileges.

Hoping this information is helpful, and very glad for the vigilance of a colleague that caught the creep in the act,
Karen

kjsspot
06-25-2002, 09:29 AM
:::waving::: Hi Karen! =) The man has pulled his auction. However, the only way for Ebay to do something is for Dom to pursue it. I wrote as did someone else, I do believe. Ebay responded and said that they have to hear from the original artist because they have no way of knowing who the original artist is and they have no idea if permission was given.

This man wrote back to me claiming that he were the original artist. Honestly, I have no way of knowing. It's obvious that both are the same, but we really have no way of knowing which artist is the copier, or if both are from another source.

Before ya'll jump me, I know Dom is a respected member of this community. But OTOH, this other man has a respectable feedback. I'm not saying Dom is in the wrong, I'm just saying that everyone is hopping up and down on this other man when we really don't know.

From what I understand, neither is willing to pursue this legally and that doesn't speak well. A letter of cease & desist from a lawyer does not cost an arm and a leg and it's hard for me to imagine not doing.

Let me reiterate. I'm NOT saying Dom is lying. I'm saying that we shouldn't be hanging a guy as guilty when we don't know. And that goes both ways. And I apologize that I too jumped in hot and angry without truly knowing. I shouldn't have done that either.

Santos
06-25-2002, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by kjsspot
:::waving::: Hi Karen! =) The man has pulled his auction. However, the only way for Ebay to do something is for Dom to pursue it. I wrote as did someone else, I do believe. Ebay responded and said that they have to hear from the original artist because they have no way of knowing who the original artist is and they have no idea if permission was given.

This man wrote back to me claiming that he were the original artist. Honestly, I have no way of knowing. It's obvious that both are the same, but we really have no way of knowing which artist is the copier, or if both are from another source.

Before ya'll jump me, I know Dom is a respected member of this community. But OTOH, this other man has a respectable feedback. I'm not saying Dom is in the wrong, I'm just saying that everyone is hopping up and down on this other man when we really don't know.

From what I understand, neither is willing to pursue this legally and that doesn't speak well. A letter of cease & desist from a lawyer does not cost an arm and a leg and it's hard for me to imagine not doing.

Let me reiterate. I'm NOT saying Dom is lying. I'm saying that we shouldn't be hanging a guy as guilty when we don't know. And that goes both ways. And I apologize that I too jumped in hot and angry without truly knowing. I shouldn't have done that either.

I have downloaded and copied the parerwork/notice of infringement/VeRo program that eBay requires for you to make a claim of copyright infringement. After reading it a few times, it seems that since Roy Elmer closed his auction, that is the end of it. If I fax the notice of copyright infringement to eBay, there is nothing they can do since the auction has been closed. And if Mr Elmer is trying to sell other copied works, the copyright holder of those works has to join the VeRo program and file a notice of infringement. Seems to me, that I/we should have contacted eBay before we contacted Mr Elmer. It seems the only thing I can do is take it to court.

Kjsspot, I know that you have no way of knowing who created this piece first, but your comments highly offend me. The fact that this guy closed his auction should be proof enough.

The fact that Mr Elmer e-mailed various people, including you, and slandered my reputation, is despicable, and by doing so he has put doubt in your mind as to who is the creator of this work, and that infuriates me. You too have become a victim of this guy.

kjsspot
06-25-2002, 07:01 PM
I apologize if I offended you Dom. I was trying to word it so that it would not come across as an offense. I guess I failed at that. My point was not that I hold your name in any ill fashion. My point was that there are a lot of people who jumped on this man without any proof.

I am in no way saying that this man did or didn't copy your work. My gut said yes because of your series and the fact that yours has more detail in it and is by far the better skilled. BUT the fact is, we, the readers here, really have no way of knowing for certain. And because of that, we really shouldn't be dumping on him because we really don't know.

I do know this much. I will be watching him to make sure my stuff doesn't end up on his auctions.

Santos
06-25-2002, 08:28 PM
I just faxed my "notice of infringement" paperwork to eBay. Not really sure what they will do since this guy has already closed the auction. But at least a complaint is on record coming from the creator of the copyrighted work, ME!

It's amazing how having your integrity questioned ( Thanks Kjsspot) really motivates one to fill out legal papers.

kjsspot
06-25-2002, 08:35 PM
Dom, one thing one of my Prof's stressed is the need to stay on top of copyright infringement. Because if we do nothing, then it can come back to bite us. He also claimed that if we allow an infringement to continue that they can eventually argue public domain.

An attorney can send a cease and desist letter for very little $$ and then you'll have that on your side if you ever need it.

I don't know if you're a biblical kinda guy, but even if not, it does have a lot of good tidbits in it. One of them is "do not let your good be evil spoke" (just from memory LoL May not be verbatim)

I'm glad your doing something. =)

Azure Wings
06-26-2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by kjsspot
Dom, one thing one of my Prof's stressed is the need to stay on top of copyright infringement. Because if we do nothing, then it can come back to bite us. He also claimed that if we allow an infringement to continue that they can eventually argue public domain.

An attorney can send a cease and desist letter for very little $$ and then you'll have that on your side if you ever need it.


Dom, look up Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts on the web. I don't know if there is an office anywhere near you, but it may be that you could also get a phone consultation.... They do this for much lower cost than you'd have to pay otherwise, and you will get an attorney who knows copyright and arts issues better than most.

The thing that really bothers me is that this man is probably copying all the stuff he puts up for sale on Ebay. So he gets positive feedback... all that means is that he delivered what they paid for. It is no indication of his honesty, ethics, or artistic integrity.

And Dom happens to have found out about his theft of your image... but what about the other artists who don't know their images are being stolen? So he closes an auction on the one he's been caught on - does this mean Ebay will do nothing unless multiple legal actions, from multiple artists, are taken out against him? It doesn't seem right for him to be able to continue doing what he's doing....

BTW, hi KJ! ::waving back::

Wishing you all the best, Dom, and hoping you don't just let it go,
Karen

Santos
06-26-2002, 02:43 AM
I would appreciate it if anybody who e-mailed Mr Elmer and recieved a reply from this guy, would forward those replies to me in the event that I take legal action.

You can send them to watercolors@joesantos.com

Thanks

Joe

arlene
06-26-2002, 03:14 AM
I sent him an email but never received anything back from him...good luck joe.

mame
06-26-2002, 10:09 AM
I saved his reply to me for my own protection. Will send it to you today.

JeffG
06-26-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by kjsspot
...we really shouldn't be dumping on him because we really don't know...

ah, but how do you know what "we" don't know? That's the broadest assumption that's occured in this discussion.

kjsspot
06-26-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by JeffG


ah, but how do you know what "we" don't know? That's the broadest assumption that's occured in this discussion.

Well perhaps individuals do. However, nothing of the sort has been presented on this thread.

Dom, I'll see if I still have those emails and forward you what I have.

Santos
06-26-2002, 06:05 PM
I have discovered that someone who is participating in this thread is corresponding with Mr Elmer. Because of this, I will no longer discuss this issue or give updates as to the course of action I am taking or may take.

Azure Wings
06-27-2002, 03:07 AM
Sounds like a wise decision, Dom. I'm glad you found that out, and I wish you all the best with this - and I wish all the best to any other artist who finds his or her images have been stolen.

Always rooting for the good guys,
Karen

Azure Wings
06-27-2002, 04:33 AM
I see that the painter in question has now removed from bidding ALL of the paintings he had up for sale.

I'm thinking this is an instance where actions speak louder than words....

I am wondering, though: is he likely to stop altogether? Or will he just reappear, under another name (or screenname)?

And would anyone who knows what he's done be likely to think any of his work is original from now on?

Wishing the good guys (and gals) all the best in this one,
Karen

mame
06-27-2002, 10:15 AM
Yes, Joe. Cease and desist. There is a mole in our midst.

Unconscionable.

kjsspot
06-27-2002, 10:25 AM
Mame, there is no mole. He's refering to my emails to the other guy which I forwarded to Dom. I in no way shared any information with the other man that would hurt Dom in any way. I, as others here have as well, emailed him in outrage when this first began. He emailed me back with his "explaination" and I explained to him why my gut says Dom is the original owner (series, more detail, better rendered) but that I was wrong in making that decision without any facts to back it up.

Total of 2 emails. Original and one reply. I dropped it at that because I don't trust him. I don't have to have all the facts to make that decision.

El_Elegante
06-27-2002, 11:19 AM
This is Dom's issue.. everyone else should stay out of it. doing otherwise, or contacting this individual could only complicate things if legal action becomes necessary.

mame
06-27-2002, 11:36 AM
Txs for the confession, kjsspot but my comments were more of a "hang in there, Dom and do what ya gotta do" kind of thing.

Agree with El. It's Dom's baby and a done deal here.

kjsspot
06-27-2002, 11:36 AM
I agree! Which is why I stopped emailing him. But I am not the only one that reacted quickly out of anger. In fact, that was largely my point. We should stay out of it and stop pointing fingers without proof and let these two hash it out themselves. I posted this opinion because I found myself in error as well.

arlene
06-27-2002, 11:45 AM
actions really do speak louder than words.

kjsspot
06-27-2002, 11:51 AM
I agree Arlene. I'll definitely be watching this guy AND stepping up my copyright registrations. <g> Just in case. ;)

kjsspot
06-27-2002, 11:53 AM
LoL Thanks for the clarification Mame. :D

Santos
06-29-2002, 11:29 PM
Here is the work of a very talented watercolorist I know from the internet. http://www.dianahsu.com/sixandahalf.htm

Here is an eBay auction I found. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=879118719

kjsspot
06-30-2002, 12:38 AM
Egads! Dom, contact your friend and I PROMISE I won't write this guy to tip him off!

Aselka
06-30-2002, 02:59 AM
I cannot see the photo on that auction... He has already took it off. He is probably reading everything, which we post here.


Aselka

Aselka
06-30-2002, 03:02 AM
oops, sorry for a wrong alarm . I saw it.. it is still there! This guy needs to be stopped!!!

Aselka

arlene
06-30-2002, 12:06 PM
I wrote Diana Hsu who is a well respected artist on the art show circuit. I hope she writes ebay also to stop this guy. Is there a way for her and Dom to get together in a group suit or something?

El_Elegante
06-30-2002, 01:46 PM
Wow, I saw both photos... that is pretty clear copywrite infringement. What is wrong with this guy.. can't he at least paint his own flowers. I mean just go grab a handful of gerbadaisies, and arange them differently.... I agree, this guy needs to be watched and stopped.

deevaa
07-15-2002, 10:25 PM
I had one of my paintings copied and posted here on wetcanvas as his own. Zotma alerted me to the fact... when I called him on it he told me that one of his instructors had showen him my work and suggested that he try and imitate it. :rolleyes: right.

THEN he had the nerve to say if he'd known I wasn't a 'real' artist he'd never have copied my work.

I suppose he hadn't expected me to be cruising WetCanvas.

SunnyJon
07-24-2002, 06:43 PM
I went to ebay via thread and it's gone:clap: It just says it's been removed.:clap: GREAT WORK MAME!
The sight of the daisies is up but pic isn't loading. Says it sold for $67.00, there's a lawsuit. There are volunteer lawyers for the arts that would probably handle this.

Aselka
08-29-2002, 12:16 PM
I wonder if the issue with copyright of Dom's works was resolved. For a while Roy elmer was not registered user on Ebay, but now he is selling his works again.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=902143256


Aselka

Hercule
08-29-2002, 07:07 PM
Roy Elmer was recently removed (this past July) from eBay because of complaints from artists about his blatant copyright infringements.
He is now back on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=902143256

I've written to eBay requesting an explanation as to why he has been allowed back on. I had been told by them that he would no longer be permitted to sell through eBay. I await a reply from them.

Elmer also has a web site: http://members.aol.com/elmerart/index.html/

I would like to invite everyone to visit his site and see if they recognize any of the art and to please contact the artists whose work he is infringing.

Hercule
08-29-2002, 10:29 PM
Hello,

RE: issue with Roy Elmer

The seller agreed to our terms of reinstatement. So you know our terms,
they are listed below:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/reinstfaq.html

If you can write us back or confirm the new listing is indeed infringing via
fax, we will end the item and suspend the seller indefinitely.

Regards,

Jason Hughes
Infringement Supervisor
801-545-2537


If you are familiar with the image he has posted on eBay please post here so that I can contact eBay.
Thank you