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monkhaus
12-06-2007, 11:45 PM
Hey, I realize there are a number of people who have asked about what brands of oil paint are well liked, but I'm curious about which colors are the most liked from these brands. For example I like M.Graham's Quinacridone Violet a lot but can't stand their Raw Umber.

I'm relatively new to oil and have used Graham, Holbein, and Winsor & Newton's Winsor line (ugh) and Artisan (ugh). Having a little money handy I wanted to buy a few tubes and play around with them. I have a list of manufacturers below (having read about many here on WC) and want an idea of peoples' color preferences from these companies. Or others if I've missed someone wonderful. Which colors are particularly great in your estimation?

If it helps, my main interest is landscape, still life, etc. but not really portraiture. Thank you for all assistance! Or feel free to tell me this is a silly idea.

Holbein
Graham
Harding
Vasari
Blue Ridge
W&N's Artist
Sennelier
Maimeri
Williamsburg
Schmincke
Rembrandt
OH
Blockx
Art Spectrum

gunzorro
12-07-2007, 12:18 AM
I'm easy.

Holbein No
Graham No
Harding Yes
Vasari Super Yes
Blue Ridge Maybe -- curious
W&N's Artist Hmmm
Sennelier Hmmm
Maimeri Wait a while
Williamsburg Maybe
Schmincke Mussini Yes
Rembrandt Hmmm
OH Yes
Blockx Yes
Art Spectrum The cheapest quality of those listed. No

To summarize:

Vasari Super Yes
Harding Yes
Schmincke Mussini Yes
OH Yes
Blockx Yes

Also add -- Doak as Yes

monkhaus
12-07-2007, 12:34 AM
So which colors for your positives make you sit up and go "wow!"? Ya know gunzorro, you're such a fount of information... thanks so much for your time.

DLGardner
12-07-2007, 09:59 AM
If I ever have extra money (is there such a thing) I always go for Old Holland. I've never tried Vasari...actually I'm not sure who retails it here in the states. But OH to me are the prize.

I love their accent colors...Kings Lake blue, OH turquoise, cinnebar, blue violet etc. Because they are so expensive I buy a cheaper brand of my essential colors and fortify my collection with the specialty colors of OH.

Although lately I have been studying Hongnan Zhang's The Yin Yang of Painting and invested in his purple/yellow pallette. The next for me will be the blue orange palette. He uses primarily OH.

Dianne

perryjohnson
12-07-2007, 10:38 AM
Here goes:
Old Holland's Raw Umber
Michael Harding's Cremnitz White
Blue Ridge Vermilion
Blue Ridge Trans. Oxide Red (I like their colors in general)
Williamsburg Nickel Yellow - particularly that it's a long paint
Williamsburg Graphite
Mussini Trans. Brown Oxide
Holbein Mars Yellow - I don't usually like Holbein but this isn't the usual Mars Yellow

There's nothing special to me about W&N, Rembrandt, or the other middle-of-the-road paints. I use them when I need a lot of paint. Rembrandt drives me nuts with their nitrogen whipped mousse paint - seems that half what comes from the tube is oily gas.

Brian Firth
12-07-2007, 11:47 AM
Holbein - Their Nickel Yellow (PR157) is a unique clean greenish yellow shade that can't be found anywhere else.

Graham - Napthol Red (PR112) is very strong tinting and brilliant red, his Anthraquinone Red is also very strong and transparent pigment that is a good replacement for Alizarin Crimson

W&N's Artist - Winsor Red Deep (PR149) is an excellent Perylene red with beautiful clean transparency and deep cherry red masstone, Their Naples Yellow Deep (PBr24) is a very close match to genuine Naples Yellow with great tinting strength and clean tinting. Their Rose Madder Genuine is expensive, but a very nice delicate pink that is considerably different from Aliazrin Crimson.

Sennelier - thier Chinese Orange (PO61) is very strong transparent orange that is unique to Sennelier, another favorite of mine is Ultramarine Rose (PR259) which is like a very red shade ultramarine violet

Rembrandt - Permanent Red Violet (PR202) is a brilliant transparent magenta that is unique to their line and highly recommended. Rembrandt's Permanent Blue Violet PV16 is a blue shade manganese violet which is a good economical substitute for cobalt violet deep.

OH - Manganese blue because it is not available anywhere else for a reasonable price - Old Holland is overpriced and if you like the smooth buttery texture of M. Graham you will be put off by the thick pasty texture of Old Holland.

Blockx - their Baryte Yellow PY31 is the traditional Lemon Yellow used by the impressionist and is a rare light yellow that make very unique mixes with other pigments. All their colors are nice and buttery, but expensive.

My opinion is that all manufacturers of artists quality colors have some great colors and that the Vasaris, Hardings, Willamsburgs, Old Hollands, are good paints, but way overpriced and their higher prices are not proportionally equivalent to the alleged additional quality (more pigment?) you get. I also hand grind some colors and would still recommend all the brands I have recommended colors from above.

With that said, I will also offer some Grumbacher colors I would recommend, that are very good quality and pigment load:

Their Quiniacridone Orange PO48 which has excellent tinting strength and is like a beautiful transparent organic burnt sienna. And their Perylene Maroon, which is a very deep transparent crimson pigment with high tinting strength. Both are pretty cheap and highly recommended.

I would also recommend LeFranc and Bourgeois Cobalt Red Violet (PV49) as the best cobalt violet light I have found, and also happens to be one of the cheapest. Much better, meaning more brilliant and higher tinting, than Vasari's or Old Holland's and much, much, cheaper. Their Transparent Indian Orange (PO71) is a beautiful transparent pyrrole orange which is much cheaper than the Mussini version (Translucent Orange) and has considerably greater pigment load.

Einion
12-08-2007, 12:12 PM
Their Naples Yellow Deep (PBr24) is a very close match to genuine Naples Yellow with great tinting strength and clean tinting.
Gotta say I've come to love that pigment; it's one of those where you wonder how you got along without it before it came along :)

Rembrandt - Permanent Red Violet (PR202) is a brilliant transparent magenta that is unique to their line and highly recommended.
I think Daniel Smith's Quinacridone Magenta in oils might be this too; it's used in their watercolour line.

Einion

monkhaus
12-08-2007, 01:59 PM
Thank you for the suggestions. On the Grumbacher I've heard that Chartpak has really tried to bring the line back to its former strength, and reformulated it more towards the original instead of, from what I've understood, letting it be ruined like Sanford did.

monkhaus
12-08-2007, 02:41 PM
Oh, thanks by the way Brian. I have to admit that stiff or creamy consistency don't really matter regarding OH compared to Graham or anything else.

My feeling is that if I'm going to paint and there is a good paint then it's my job to figure out how to create a texture and consistency that works for me and what I am working on. Part of learning what the heck I am doing.

Daniel_OB
12-08-2007, 04:07 PM
I use 3 brands
W&N - use for paintings I will sell.
Old Holland - do not sell these paintings (if your mind, hand and brush are up to OH)
Holbein - I sell these if I relly relly have to (but know to cry) to buy food. Whenever I sell them I want to make them again.

I think that some painters are too picky on Holbein. That paints really deserve much more respects than shown in posts above. If Rubens or Rembrandt could afford these paintings...

As I wanted to have something beside Old Holland, hand came on Holbein OR Blockx. I found that Holbein are more close to OH than Blockx, except some new replacements for "old" tubes, like "... hue". But I found that repcaments as Manganese-Blue-Nova and Chinese-Vermilion (some complain on lightfastness, but not sure they right) are realy nice to have, and will give honour to any painter. Also I never had problem mixing (just sometimes) Holbein and OH. What I also found is that Holbein are very consistent from batch to batch, simple I thrust them, I know what I am getting.

Every brand has liked and disliked tubes (even Old Holland). I think that is not good practice to make mix many of different brands especially when they are really different (e.g. pigment source, vehicle, lightfastness, saturation, pigment content, ground pigment size, ...), but, as said, OH and Holbein go well together.

One should get along with two brands, ..., that can be mixed with no problems, and make up your life around that tubes. Master them and to become Rubens caliber painter OH or Holbein color will be not on your way.
There are other very good paints beside OH and Holbein, but I just have no interest in them.

Daniel OB

Einion
12-08-2007, 05:27 PM
I think that is not good practice to make mix many of different brands especially when they are really different...
This should really make little difference Daniel; even within a single range there are inherent differences of all the things you mention from colour to colour.

Just think about the typical properties of Phthalo Blue GS, Bone Black, Quinacridone Rose, Chromium Oxide Green, Cadmium Red Light, Cobalt Blue and Flake White from a single manufacturer - varied specific gravity and weight in each case (light to heavy), differing pigment-to-binder ratio (from oily to very lean), pigment particle size (from very fine to relatively coarse) and oil-absorption rate. All together this means each colour would have to milled quite differently to the others to achieve homogenous paint, simply as a matter of normal procedure. Plus, amounts of any extenders and/or stabilizers would almost always be specific to each pigment.

And of course for a fair number of brands today there is more than one binder used (which has a long historical precedent, from well before mass-produced paint). Even with a paint bound with 'one oil' - OH is a great example, since it's not from a single source - there will of course be differences in the raw material from batch to batch because it's a natural product; it makes sense that makers could cherry-pick the lighter examples for whites and lighter colours, retaining any darker ones for earths, blacks, dark greens etc.

Einion

Marmothillstudios
12-09-2007, 11:09 AM
Hi, Monkhaus!
I'm new, too! My all-time favourites for landscape are:
Schmincke Mussini Transparent Orange and Brilliant Scarlet for the lovely glow in the clouds at sunrise (the tiniest dabs, 3 of transparent orange and one of brilliant scarlet, with second shade only with transparent orange, mixed with two teaspoons of Sennelier Titanium White;
Schmincke Mussini Shade Grey with Schmincke Translucent White for mist;
And Schmincke Mussini Atrament Black (actually a super-dark grey-green) - mixed with white and here and there a touch of sap green for sagebrush, or straight up for pine trees in shadow.
Sennelier also makes a wonderful sky color, Azure Blue, mixed with just titanium white for a summer sky, or titanium and cobalt for a winter-fall sky.
Personally, I find Old Holland to be very undesirable for painting thin and multi-layers, as I usually do...way too opaque and heavy - especially for skies, makes them "thud" rather than sing - and rediculously expensive! I have a whole drawerful but rarely use it, except occasionally in thicker foregrounds. Although a lot of Winsor Newton reflects the price, their Prussian Green is a wonderful landscape colour. Also try Sennelier's or Schmincke Mussini's Indigo Tone for wonderful mixes in stormy skies or dark foregrounds....

Marmothillstudios
12-09-2007, 11:22 AM
Whoops...forgot to add...I use aswexpress.com as supplier for Schmincke Mussini (and everything else!), unless I'm buying 6 tubes or more, in which case jerrysartarama.com (asw's owner's cousin, I believe) gives a really nice price break....

Einion
12-09-2007, 01:38 PM
Whoops...forgot to add...I use aswexpress.com as supplier for Schmincke Mussini (and everything else!), unless I'm buying 6 tubes or more, in which case jerrysartarama.com (asw's owner's cousin, I believe) gives a really nice price break....
Hi, you might like to give longtime WC! sponsor Dick Blick a look:
http://www.dickblick.com/zz004/73/

With savings of as much as six bucks a tube the price break for 6 tubes or more on Jerry's still might not break even. Blick generally has some of the best S&H online too, both for price and service.

Einion

monkhaus
12-09-2007, 01:45 PM
Thanks Marmot. I'm excited about trying Schminke, even with my list I'd figured they would end up being a definite and a lot of brand mixing and matching seems fine as I decide what I want and play with them all.

Funny enough but I've never even seen a tube of Sennelier's oil. I've used their soft pastels and have been pretty happy with them. Same for their oil pastels. Thanks for your suggestions.

I've never used ASW or Jerry's. I like Blick and will order from IAS at some point. I also use my C/C's art store, which while really tiny has the best non-internet prices I've come across. Surprisingly.

Ribera
12-09-2007, 06:56 PM
]What I've Uncovered Through My Experiences[/B];
Cadmium Green Pale & Cadmium Yellow Light, I use Gamblin. Their Cadmium Green is paler than others' CGP anyway. Moreover, they make the absolute palest yellow I've seen anywhere.
-Quinacridone Rose Deep, a.k.a. Old Holland's "Sheviningen Rose Deep", this obtains the brightest deepest rose I've seen anywhere. Only Alizarin Crimsonish colors get darker or as bright, but this is superior for colors just a little paler.
-Alizarin Crimson: This hue's essential because it's so deep, but I've heard said numerous places that it's not as lightfast as one would desire, so I've replaced it with Winsor & Newton's Rose Madder Genuine. This paint insofar as I can tell is inseperable from AC. It's hue is indistinguishable, and is as transparent, so, likewise, one may glaze with it. If you utilize Alizarin Crimson, try Rose Madder Genuine; you'll probably like it as much.
That Stuff Works for Me Anyway,
r.

Marmothillstudios
12-09-2007, 07:07 PM
Hi, you might like to give longtime WC! sponsor Dick Blick a look:
http://www.dickblick.com/zz004/73/

With savings of as much as six bucks a tube the price break for 6 tubes or more on Jerry's still might not break even. Blick generally has some of the best S&H online too, both for price and service.

Einion
Thanks, Einion! I used to order from Blick, I'll try them again!

ly
05-06-2008, 04:57 AM
Holbein - Their Nickel Yellow (PR157) is a unique clean greenish yellow shade that can't be found anywhere else.

Graham - Napthol Red (PR112) is very strong tinting and brilliant red, his Anthraquinone Red is also very strong and transparent pigment that is a good replacement for Alizarin Crimson

W&N's Artist - Winsor Red Deep (PR149) is an excellent Perylene red with beautiful clean transparency and deep cherry red masstone, Their Naples Yellow Deep (PBr24) is a very close match to genuine Naples Yellow with great tinting strength and clean tinting. Their Rose Madder Genuine is expensive, but a very nice delicate pink that is considerably different from Aliazrin Crimson.

Sennelier - thier Chinese Orange (PO61) is very strong transparent orange that is unique to Sennelier, another favorite of mine is Ultramarine Rose (PR259) which is like a very red shade ultramarine violet

Rembrandt - Permanent Red Violet (PR202) is a brilliant transparent magenta that is unique to their line and highly recommended. Rembrandt's Permanent Blue Violet PV16 is a blue shade manganese violet which is a good economical substitute for cobalt violet deep.

OH - Manganese blue because it is not available anywhere else for a reasonable price - Old Holland is overpriced and if you like the smooth buttery texture of M. Graham you will be put off by the thick pasty texture of Old Holland.

Blockx - their Baryte Yellow PY31 is the traditional Lemon Yellow used by the impressionist and is a rare light yellow that make very unique mixes with other pigments. All their colors are nice and buttery, but expensive.

My opinion is that all manufacturers of artists quality colors have some great colors and that the Vasaris, Hardings, Willamsburgs, Old Hollands, are good paints, but way overpriced and their higher prices are not proportionally equivalent to the alleged additional quality (more pigment?) you get. I also hand grind some colors and would still recommend all the brands I have recommended colors from above.

With that said, I will also offer some Grumbacher colors I would recommend, that are very good quality and pigment load:

Their Quiniacridone Orange PO48 which has excellent tinting strength and is like a beautiful transparent organic burnt sienna. And their Perylene Maroon, which is a very deep transparent crimson pigment with high tinting strength. Both are pretty cheap and highly recommended.

I would also recommend LeFranc and Bourgeois Cobalt Red Violet (PV49) as the best cobalt violet light I have found, and also happens to be one of the cheapest. Much better, meaning more brilliant and higher tinting, than Vasari's or Old Holland's and much, much, cheaper. Their Transparent Indian Orange (PO71) is a beautiful transparent pyrrole orange which is much cheaper than the Mussini version (Translucent Orange) and has considerably greater pigment load.
Hi Brian
Did you made any Lightfast Test for PR149 or other paints you recomend?
Thanks
LY

Brian Firth
05-08-2008, 01:04 PM
Of the colors I have listed above, I have only tested two. I have tested Graham's PR112, and it performed very well and I would rate it as very lightfast. I am also currently testing the Old Holland Manganese blue. It is holding up well, however the control sample is turning green because of the linseed oil and the sample exposed to the sun is actually looking much better. This is the reason I prefer many pigments (whites, blues, violets) in safflower, walnut, poppy, or sunflower oil over linseed oil.

I have tested Winsor and Newton's PR149 in acrylics and it did darken in masstone some after about 6 months, but it did not fade at all.

Howard Metzenberg
05-10-2008, 10:28 PM
There is a reason why Blick carries more than 20 brands of artist oil colors. Of course, different brands occupy different positions on the price-value curve, but some of the brands also have a quality that I'll call evenness or consistent performance over the whole line. These brands use additives such as driers and extenders to even out the line as a whole, to make one color perform more consistently with another.

The makers of these brands assume that most buyers prefer to select all their paint from one paint line, and they hope to foster brand loyalty. They assume that most painters are not familiar with the particular characteristics of individual pigments, and do not want to adjust to differences in the handling properties of pigments. Therefore, they endeavor to produce an entire line that has even and consistent performance.

To a very technical painter, one who wants the highest pigment load possible, and doesn't care about whether one pigment dries much faster than another, or is overwhelming in tints, the efforts of these mainstream manufacturers to simplify the process of painting for the artist who is color oriented rather than pigment oriented is probably an annoyance.

Let me make an analogy to bicycling. My father was a university professor who rode his bicycle to work for more than 20 years. When my dad (who passed away a year ago) was about my age, I recommended to him that he should buy a serious bicycle. Thinking that he would keep up with his son, he dutifully invested in a racing style bike with dropped handlebars. But he never was comfortable on that bicycle, and went back to riding the old one, which he continued to ride until roughly his 70th birthday. My choice of a bicycle was inappropriate for him. My dad never failed to get to work on his bicycle. He just didn't do it as fast as I did.

What I am really doing here is distinguishing between intermediate and advanced paint. In the art world there is a place for and a need for intermediate paints. You may yourself be the painter who uses the racing brand, but what would you want your aging father or your kid sister to use, if you didn't want your choice to discourage them from painting.

I'll ask the painters here which brands they consider to be intermediate, to be even or consistent across the line.

Howard Metzenberg
Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

monkhaus
05-10-2008, 11:18 PM
It's funny but personally I don't really have a desire to be "loyal" to one brand, or even have a favorite brand. My desire, as a new painter, is to try different colors from each brand, get an idea of what those with more knowledge and experience like, and make my own discoveries. Even if it's 20 different brands, even if it's "intermediate" or "professional" paint, the paint is more important than the maker.

I guess pigment and color are both very important to me right now. Maybe that will change with time and one become ascendant...

And good lord the generosity, experience, suggestions, and ideas of The WC (and, among others, Blick, thanks Howard!) has made that learning process so much easier.

gunzorro
05-11-2008, 02:16 AM
Howard -- I'm not sure I have much experience along these lines, as most of the paint brands I use are the "racer" type with a lot of variarion within the line went it comes to drying speed and paint consistency.

The only two I've used that seem to fit are Winton and Georgian. I've heard Lucas is like that, but haven't tried it.

I don't care for too much diversity within a brand -- gritty paint is definitely out on one end, and oily paint on the other. I prefer the paint by the top makers such as Blockx, OH and Mussini. But even Sennelier's new formula has quite a bit of variation in it.

number19
05-11-2008, 02:24 AM
Howard, It's been some time since I've used them but I think Winsor Newton's Artist Quality Oils might be an example of an 'evened out line' ? As I understand it they use linseed oil , safflower oil, or a mix of the two as binding oils depending on the drying properties of the pigments in an effort to even out the drying times of their various paints.

I'd like to raise another possibility, and one that others with more experience with different paint brands could say more about. It seems that at least some of the higher quality paint lines seem to exhibit an over riding aesthetic, The paints may contain fewer additives and be less modified , their lines might contain more single pigment paints, but in the choice of pigment preparations and /or sources, binding oils, grinding procedures, etc. their has been an over riding concept or aesthetic that has been applied more or less consciously. That gives paint lines like Blockx (which I'm using so know best about), and I think , Old Holland, Vasari, Michael Harding , and I'm sure many other brands different, but quite distinct characters as lines. That is their colors often have a kind of family relationship to each other. I wonder if others see that too ?