PDA

View Full Version : Best warm blue for simplified palette: Cobalt...or?


AnnieA
08-31-2007, 01:14 PM
I'm a beginning oil painter using an odd collection of oil paints from a years-ago foray into painting that I wasn't able to continue at the time. I'm starting out with a warm/cool limited palette. Right now, I have ultramarine blue for my cool blue, which works fine, and Windsor (student grade) Cerulean for my warm blue, which isn't satisfactory, as it's not strong enough in mixes. I'm thinking I'll use the Cerulean for skies, but will get a new warm blue to fill out my palette.

I was pretty much decided on Cobalt (the real stuff - artist's grade), until I happened to read Michael Wilcox's description of the pure pigment as "low in tinting strength." Wilcox, I realize, isn't always entirely reliable, but I want to make sure that the paint I buy is going to work for me, since my palette is so limited. Is Cobalt a good choice for such a palette? Is there some other alternative that might work as well, but perhaps be a bit less expensive for a beginner like me? I should add that I'm hesitant to use Pthalo Blue, GS, as it's so strong.

I've read just a little bit about reflectance curves (in the back of Hillary Page's excellent book on watercolor paints), and how a pigment's reflectance curve can predict it's usefulness in mixing, but I haven't really found a good source describing each pigment's reflectance curve. Does anyone have a source? Any thoughts/advice on this issue would be appreciated.

Einion
08-31-2007, 02:12 PM
Phthalo Blue GS (PB15:3 is the usual number you'll see on the labels) would be a good pairing for French Ultramarine.

Einion

Patrick1
08-31-2007, 07:28 PM
Cobalt Blue is a middle blue - I think you'll be disappointed if you want it to mix saturated greens. Cerulean Blue is better for greens but still far short as what you'll get from Phthalo Blue or Phthalo Cyan. If you need a blue that can mix clean greens, I think your only choice will be Phthalo Blue GS - student grade should have less tinting strength than artists' grade.

Or you could keep the Cerulean and get a Phthalo Blue GS, Cyan, Turquoise, or Green for when needed, that's what I'm doing right now. I use the Phthalo only when I need saturated greens, or for mixing with Quinacridone Rose to get black/near black.

AnnieA
08-31-2007, 08:08 PM
Einion: Thanks. I really am hesitant to use Pthalo; if there's any alternative I'd prefer it. Are you saying I shouldn't have this hesitation?

Patrick: Thanks to you too. I do have a tube of Pthalo Green, and Sap Green too, so I think I'm OK as far as mixing greens are concerned, and blacks also. So perhaps that means that the Cobalt isn't such a bad choice, since I already have the greens covered?

I guess I'm asking a difficult question, and not providing information on what I want to paint doesn't help matters much. But I don't know for sure what I want to paint - just about everything interests me at one moment or another. So I guess what I need is a multi-purpose basic warm blue. I'm thinking Cobalt may indeed be it...still not sure though. I'm doing further research myself in between posting here.

illuminous art
08-31-2007, 08:53 PM
Cobalt and cerulean are wonderful for painting flesh, but for mixing greens, I'd go with phtalo blue as the others have said.

Mike Finn
08-31-2007, 09:31 PM
For what it's worth I love Cobalt Blue :). But my basic palette contains only Ultramarine. It used to also contain Phthalo Green (yellow shade) for the intense warm greens... but was seldom used for that. It mixed a good black with Permanent Rose. I think any choice of palette should be taken as a whole so a warm/cool blue may not be needed depending on say the yellow you choose.

Other factors may include opacity/transparency and of course cost :(

There are as many choices as there are Artists :)

My warm/cool palette is:

Cad Lemon
Indian Yellow
Permanent Rose
Cad Orange
Ultramarine Blue
Cerulean Blue

My limited Palette is:

Cad Lemon
Permanent Rose
Cad Orange
Ultramarine Blue

I also include with both:
Mixing White
Davy's Gray

As you see Cerulean is my other blue..
Of course all may change next week :)

Mike Finn

Richard Saylor
08-31-2007, 09:35 PM
There's a bunch of spectral reflectance curves at the Handprint site. Go to http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html. Clicking on a color at the top of the page will take you to descriptions of various pigments. The little spectrum icons are links to spectral reflectance curves.

Coblat blue is a middle blue, neither particularly warm nor cool within the blue family. However, there is a surprising amount of red in its spectral curve, and greens made with cobalt blue + yellow are almost as weak as those with ultramarine + yellow. It is about midway between ultramarine blue and pthalo blue gs. I often use prussian blue as a 'warm' blue in place of pthalo. It is darker than pthalo, but the hue is similar, and it is not as potent in mixtures. Also, you might try pthalo blue rs instead of gs.

Richard

AnnieA
08-31-2007, 09:49 PM
Illuminous: Thanks. Given the near-unanimous opinion of the responders to this thread that it's most useful in mixing greens, whether or not I decide on the Cobalt as my main warm blue, I'll probably have to get a tube of pthalo blue as well. I'll probably get a cheaper student grade though - maybe the fillers will be to my advantage in this case.

Richard: Thanks so much for that link! I had seen that portion of the handprint site a couple of years ago, but couldn't locate it when I visited earlier today. That's just the sort of information I'm looking for, even if it's geared toward watercolorists. I guess Prussian might be an alternative for me, as I'm not comfortable with the pthalos generally (when I tried oil painting before, I remember having quite a time trying to handle them).

I'm off to do more reading at handprint now... Again, thanks very much. :)

Jim T
09-01-2007, 11:49 AM
I'm a beginning oil painter using an odd collection of oil paints from a years-ago foray into painting that I wasn't able to continue at the time. I'm starting out with a warm/cool limited palette. Right now, I have ultramarine blue for my cool blue, which works fine, and Windsor (student grade) Cerulean for my warm blue, which isn't satisfactory, as it's not strong enough in mixes. I'm thinking I'll use the Cerulean for skies, but will get a new warm blue to fill out my palette.




Am i the only one here who thinks this is ass up? Excuse the french, but French Ultramarine is a warm blue and Cerulean is a cool blue :rolleyes:

Pthalo's are cool......and Cobalt blue is a cool blue, but not as cool as Cerulean or Pthalo

OK.....Ultramarine = Warm Blue
Cerulean = cool blue

Both are good to use...Cerulean is great as a base for skies

Cobalt Blue is also a good colour and has it's uses....being transparent, unlike Cerulean ( if you want that )

illuminous art
09-01-2007, 01:25 PM
Annie, you can get artist's grade Grumbacher Thalo Blue for less than $5 at Dick Blick. That's what I did. The color is so strong, and you'll use so little of it in mixes, that it doesn't really matter if you get a cheaper brand.

Grumbacher isn't a top brand any longer, but for this purpose they're fine.


As for warm/cool: When in doubt, I think of a color as leaning toward red or yellow rather than warm or cool.

AnnieA
09-01-2007, 03:36 PM
Mike: My apologies for missing your helpful post earlier. I suppose I could stumble along with the student grade (Winton) Cerulean for the time being. Also, right now I only have one yellow, a Permanent Pigments Cad Yellow Light, so I'll need to be thinking about another yellow soon, I suppose, although to my eye, the hue seems quite balanced, without a strong tendency either toward green or orange. Do you have any thoughts about transparency? I'm baffled about what I should be looking for in that aspect. What brand(s) do you use (I guess that can make a big difference)? I'm planning to use M.Graham, as I'm nervous about solvents, although I may combine brands if it makes sense to do so.

brainless: You're right about the warm/cool...maybe we should switch screen names. :p I know about warm/cool pigments, but somehow goofed. Whoops. :o I guess I should have asked about the best blue to fill out a simple warm/cool palette with Ultramarine. The Ultramarine I'm using is an old tube of Permanent Pigments, and it's not French Ultramarine. I'm not clear about the issue of transparency at this point, being so new to all this. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I plan to paint alla prima (at this point, I'm too impatient to deal with waiting for the paint to dry), which I imagine makes a difference.

Illuminous: Thanks for the tip about the Grumbacher Pthalo. :) I thought I'd just pick up a Winton, but if I can get artist grade, I suppose that's better.

Richard Saylor
09-01-2007, 05:15 PM
Am i the only one here who thinks this is ass up? Excuse the french, but French Ultramarine is a warm blue and Cerulean is a cool blue :rolleyes:There is no consensus either way.

illuminous art
09-01-2007, 05:40 PM
Annie,

You can use all brands without solvents. I work without solvents and use a number of paint brands interchangeably. Although M. Graham makes some fine paint.

All Ultramarine was originally French. So for paint companies to package and sell both "Ultramarine" and "French Ultramarine" is a bit silly to me.

Your yellows are up to you, although I like to have several. I lean towards transparent colors as I like to glaze, myself.

Einion
09-01-2007, 05:48 PM
Pthalo's are cool......and Cobalt blue is a cool blue, but not as cool as Cerulean or Pthalo

OK.....Ultramarine = Warm Blue
Cerulean = cool blue
Are they? (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4547806#post4547806) ;)

Einion

AnnieA
09-01-2007, 06:59 PM
lol, Einion...thanks for posting that. I guess I feel a little less embarrassed now. I wonder why so frequently many of the terms we use to describe art have rather ambigous definitions, or definitions that appear to represent a moving target. Maybe it's because so much of art depends on our perceptions, rather than being factual and objective.

At any rate, I'm going to try to remember to use the term "blue tending toward green" or "blue tending toward red" in the future, in order to make sure I'm communicating my thought.

Patrick1
09-01-2007, 08:23 PM
I do have a tube of Pthalo Green, and Sap Green too, so I think I'm OK as far as mixing greens are concerned, and blacks also. So perhaps that means that the Cobalt isn't such a bad choice, since I already have the greens covered?
Since Ultra Blue + Phthalo Green already can mix a decent cyan and turquoise, you have some latiude in your selection of middle or greenish blue. You might want to maximize chroma (Phthalo Blue GS or Cyan), opacity (Cerulean or Cerulean Hue), you might like the light, greenish color of Cobalt Turqoise, or you might like the mixes you get from Cobalt Blue.

Excuse the french, but French Ultramarine is a warm blue and Cerulean is a cool blue
Another one to add to the list.

As for warm/cool: When in doubt, I think of a color as leaning toward red or yellow rather than warm or cool.
At any rate, I'm going to try to remember to use the term "blue tending toward green" or "blue tending toward red" in the future, in order to make sure I'm communicating my thought.
I can't think of any good reason why people shouldn't always qualify hue like this. The only problem is that it makes sense.

Mike Finn
09-01-2007, 08:52 PM
Annie...

Your student grade paint will be do fine, just use it with the properties it has and not the ones you wish it had :) As to yellows, well I can always warm up a lemon yellow with a bit of a red... I can even make a warm red, from a cool red and a cool yellow :)
I don't really choose based on cool/warm although that's ususally how it turns out to be.. I choose based on what I can mix with what, to get the colour I desire.

The cool/warm thing is only one part of the equation.

Opacity/transparency is, for me, as important. I don't glaze, I paint wet on wet with knives so having opaque paints is more than helpful but a knife stroke of a transparent colour over an opaque one helps create suggested details, adds interesting passages of colour and generally is fun to do. :)

A transparent paint will mix a brighter, more intense colour, generally.... An opaque paint will be brighter more intense out of the tube, generally.

Brands do make a difference but look at any wonderful painting and tell me the brand used :) I use Winsor & Newton Griffin Alkyd paints for their fast drying (hours instead of days), They have an excellent colour range, stiffish but smooth consistency and they are cheaper than standard paints, all ideal when painting thickly with a knife.

I use almost no solvents only Linseed oil for cleaning the palette and maybe a little Liquin for thinning or liquin Imapsto for thickening/extending but 9 out of 10 paintings are done with no mediums/thinners/additives.

When I started I used all the colours...all the mediums...all the thinners... all my money :)

Mike Finn

illuminous art
09-01-2007, 10:33 PM
Opacity/transparency is, for me, as important. I don't glaze, I paint wet on wet with knives so having opaque paints is more than helpful but a knife stroke of a transparent colour over an opaque one helps create suggested details, adds interesting passages of colour and generally is fun to do. :)



At risk of going a little off topic, this sounds interesting..could you point us to some examples of this technique?

Jim T
09-02-2007, 01:04 AM
Are they? (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4547806#post4547806) ;)

Einion


Yep, they are...... i had a quick look at the linked thread and all I can say is that there are a lot of colour blind people here :lol:

Ultramarine is a warm blue
Cobalt is a cooler blue than Ultramarine
Cerulean is a cooler blue than Ultramarine
Pthalo Blue is a cooler blue than Ultramarine

If you think otherwise, then simply put.... there is something wrong with you.

Sorry if that offends, but many forums are full of misinformation and I have no time for such crap.

illuminous art
09-02-2007, 01:11 AM
Warm vs. cool is confusing for people, because what is warmer? Red or yellow? They both seem warm to me.

That's why it's simpler to just say that Ultramarine is a red-blue while Cobalt, Cerulean and Pthalo Blue are green-blue.

Jim T
09-02-2007, 01:51 AM
Warm vs. cool is confusing for people, because what is warmer? Red or yellow? They both seem warm to me.

That's why it's simpler to just say that Ultramarine is a red-blue while Cobalt, Cerulean and Pthalo Blue are green-blue.


Warm vs, Cool is confusing, but it need not be.

What is warmer, or cooler is best worked out from specific colours..... a generic statement like "what is warmer? Red or yellow? They both seem warm to me. " can be seen as correct, but what red and what yellow are you talking about?

If it's a cool red, like an alizarin red with violet in it and a cad yellow extra deep with a bit of orange in it, then the yellow would be warmer.

On a colour wheel the warmest colour is red-orange and the coolest colour is blue-green.

Ultramarine blue is warmer than Cerulean blue because it sits further away from blue-green on a colour wheel & is closer to red-orange on a colour wheel than Cerulean.

That simple!

When mixing complex colours, or simple things like greens.....if you add cad yellow deep (warm yellow ) or orange ( warm ), you can get a warm olive green....if you add lemon yellow( cold yellow ), you will end up with an acidic cool green.

That simple.

Everything is relative to what's near it......ie a cad yellow can be seen as cool because everything else is warm oranges & reds..... or a cad yellow can be seen as the warm part of lemon yellow / green / Cerulean painting.

Richard Saylor
09-02-2007, 03:01 AM
...On a colour wheel the warmest colour is red-orange and the coolest colour is blue-green...Why is red-orange the warmest color? Why not yellow-orange, for example? Please do not respond with an ad hominem comment about my color vision.

Jim T
09-02-2007, 04:53 AM
Why is red-orange the warmest color? Why not yellow-orange, for example? Please do not respond with an ad hominem comment about my color vision.


I'll try not to insult you :cat: ;)

It is, I tell you it is and if you don't believe me, then........ooops, nearly lost it.

OK, trust me red-orange the warmest color....if you don't believe, then look at it compared to yellow-orange.

If you see it differently, then I have the number of a good optometrist.....Ooooops, sorry....I think I said that out loud.

Seriously red-orange is the warmest color, not yellow-orange.


PS forgive me being silly.

Richard Saylor
09-02-2007, 04:56 AM
...If you think otherwise, then simply put.... there is something wrong with you.

Sorry if that offends, but many forums are full of misinformation and I have no time for such crap.Welcome to the world of discussion forums, in which people such as you and I are invited to express our opinions and discuss them with others who may or may not agree. There is certainly misinformation in forums, but that is true of the internet in general and of the real world outside of the internet. Sometimes there are legitimate differences of opinion in which neither side can be accused of spreading misinformation. This is especially true when topics containing undefined terms are discussed. What does 'temperature' mean when applied to color? To some, the yellow-white sun of midday may suggest more warmth than the red-orange sun of a sunset. Ultramarine shadows in the snow on a clear day may seem cooler than the cyan shadows of green foliage in summer. Perhaps it is unnatural to totally dissociate color temperature from that physical property which is measured with a thermometer.

Give a precise definition of color temperature upon which there is general agreement and in which the meanings of all the terms in the definition are self-evident and not ambiguous, and then anyone should be able to determine whether or not they agree with you. Otherwise, if anyone does not agree with you, there is no basis on which to label their opinion as misinformation (or a delusion due to color blindness), merely because it differs from yours.

Richard

Richard Saylor
09-02-2007, 05:11 AM
PS forgive me being silly.Nonsense. The world needs more silliness. :D

Jim T
09-02-2007, 05:25 AM
Welcome to the world of discussion forums, in which people such as you and I are invited to express our opinions and discuss them with others who may or may not agree. There is certainly misinformation in forums, but that is true of the internet in general and of the real world outside of the internet. Sometimes there are legitimate differences of opinion in which neither side can be accused of spreading misinformation. This is especially true when topics containing undefined terms are discussed. What does 'temperature' mean when applied to color? To some, the yellow-white sun of midday may suggest more warmth than the red-orange sun of a sunset. Ultramarine shadows in the snow on a clear day may seem cooler than the cyan shadows of green foliage in summer. Perhaps it is unnatural to totally dissociate color temperature from that physical property which is measured with a thermometer.

Give a precise definition of color temperature upon which there is general agreement and in which the meanings of all the terms in the definition are self-evident and not ambiguous, and then anyone should be able to determine whether or not they agree with you. Otherwise, if anyone does not agree with you, there is no basis on which to label their opinion as misinformation (or a delusion due to color blindness), merely because it differs from yours.

Richard


I thought we were talking about blues ( straight from the tube ) .....and how they relate to each other?

If that is the case.....Ultramarine blue is warmer than Cerulean Blue

I understand the theory of relativity when it comes to art..... ie everything relates to everything else.....and one of them is relative colour temperature.

Yep, your examples run true....."To some, the yellow-white sun of midday may suggest more warmth than the red-orange sun of a sunset." then again it might not....without a visual context, it's just our brains making assumptions of what we are imagining.

Take a flame for instance.......a red-orange candle flame.....warm, right?
But what of a blow torch flame? In reality, the blue flame of a blow torch is a lot hotter than a red-orange flame. However visually, the blow torch flame looks cooler.

When talking colour temperature, we are only talking of the visual relativity of specific colours in specific situations.

and as such, depending of the situation that Cobalt blue finds itself in it can be warm or cool. But, as I will remind you and anyone else bothering to read this far without their eyes glazing over...... I thought we were talking about blues ( straight from the tube ) .....and how they relate to each other? That was the original question?

....and the answer is .....Ultramarine blue is warmer than Cerulean Blue

Richard Saylor
09-02-2007, 05:34 AM
...Ultramarine blue is warmer than Cerulean Blue.And, in a nutshell, my question is: Why?

Jim T
09-02-2007, 05:35 AM
And, in a nutshell, my question is: Why?


.and in a nutshell, because it looks warmer.

Richard Saylor
09-02-2007, 05:44 AM
.and in a nutshell, because it looks warmer.I'll accept that, but that makes it a matter of opinion, not hard fact. Different people see/interpret things differently without there being any visual defects involved.

Jim T
09-02-2007, 05:47 AM
If you don't believe me that Cerulean is cooler than Ultramarine blue......then use you eyes ( and not just believe the words )

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9619/cerulvj2.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5303/ultratp6.jpg


Seriously, if you cant see that, then go to a eye doctor. :lol:

Sure Ultra can be cool in certain contexts, but we are only talking about it in relation to other tubes of blue.

Richard Saylor
09-02-2007, 06:00 AM
Yes, purple looks warmer than green-blue.

Patrick1
09-02-2007, 06:36 AM
I have perfect color vision (so my eye doctor says) and yet I see the Cerulean as warmer and Ultramarine cooler. It's not about one's color vision, but rather it's about how one chooses to see and describe and use color.

Einion
09-02-2007, 07:39 AM
Richard, thanks for post #24; couldn't have put it better myself.

If you think otherwise, then simply put.... there is something wrong with you.

Sorry if that offends, but many forums are full of misinformation and I have no time for such crap.
Well gee, thanks for putting forth your views in a manner guaranteed not to offend :rolleyes:

You need to spend a lot more time looking through the threads here on this subject if you think your opinion on this is the final word. Because I can tell you right now that there are plenty of respected members who are strong artists who do no agree with what you've posted above. And there are plenty of others that don't use 'colour temperature' at all ;)

If you don't believe me that Cerulean is cooler than Ultramarine blue......then use you eyes ( and not just believe the words )
That Cerulean Blue (which is an example of the colour that I don't care for, but that's incidental) looks warmer to me. So you know, I don't think this way, but that's my straight-from-the-hip reaction and this is despite me also being of the opinion that scarlet is the pinnacle of subjective warmth!

To summarise:

And, in a nutshell, my question is: Why?
.and in a nutshell, because it looks warmer.
To you.

Einion

Einion
09-02-2007, 07:42 AM
I didn't want this overlooked in a larger post:

Seriously, if you cant see that, then go to a eye doctor. :lol:
Please don't make comments like this in future.

Einion

Jim T
09-02-2007, 09:58 AM
I have perfect color vision (so my eye doctor says) and yet I see the Cerulean as warmer and Ultramarine cooler. It's not about one's color vision, but rather it's about how one chooses to see and describe and use color.


Ok, then...you obviously choose to describe the colour temperature incorrectly :lol:

Vasari oil paints call their Cerulean Blue a cool blue

Let's see what another oil paint manufacturer says?

Gamblin ;
Cerulean Blue: Mixed metal oxide from the early 19th century with an important place on the mineral palette because blues are rarely shifted to the cool, green side, like this one. Very muted in its tint so most valuable as a pure hue.

Ultramarine Blue: A great glazing color, warm Ultra Blue is one of the few mineral colors that is completely transparent. Lightfast with moderate tinting strength. Consider using Alizarin Permanent instead of Alizarin Crimson to mix violets.


Mate, I am so sorry that you see Cerulean as a warm blue compared to Ultramarine, good luck with your painting.

Jim T
09-02-2007, 10:08 AM
Well gee, thanks for putting forth your views in a manner guaranteed not to offend :rolleyes:

You need to spend a lot more time looking through the threads here on this subject if you think your opinion on this is the final word. Because I can tell you right now that there are plenty of respected members who are strong artists who do no agree with what you've posted above. And there are plenty of others that don't use 'colour temperature' at all ;)

Einion, I can't help that there are a few respected artists here that agree with you that Cerulean is a warm blue compared to Ultramarine. They are wrong and so are you.
You might feel it is a subjective thing, but it isn't.
Apologies again, for being blunt, but as I said earlier ( in a rather blunt way ) that many forums are full of misinformation and I don't put up with that....well I don't... and you seem to be one of those who is misinforming people here.

Cerulean is cooler than Ultramarine by comparison, to people here otherwise ( or it's ok to be subjective about it ) is plain and simply wrong.

Whether I tell you it bluntly or rudely, it doesn't change the fact.




That Cerulean Blue (which is an example of the colour that I don't care for, but that's incidental) looks warmer to me. So you know, I don't think this way, but that's my straight-from-the-hip reaction and this is despite me also being of the opinion that scarlet is the pinnacle of subjective warmth!

To summarise:


To you.

Einion

Ok, so you personally see Cerulean as warmer than Ultramarine......that doesn't change the fact that universally, documentation on this issue is convincingly against you.

:wave:

Jim T
09-02-2007, 10:35 AM
Have a read of this

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color12.html#warmcool

It spells it all out.

However there is only one alternative theory in which Ultramarine can be seen as a cool blue. Where the artist chooses yellow as the warmest hue because the artist intends to use yellow as the symbol of light. Hence the diametrically opposed colour on the colourwheel is a blue-violet....and is used for painting shadows etc.

One problem, if a series of shadows go off into the distance, then ariel perspective kicks in. As in the traditional warm/cool relationships...ie, warm colours come forward...cool colours recede. therefore the nearer shadows would be Ultra Blue and as the go off into the distance the blues become cooler ......and as the traditional warm/cool colour wheel says....towards blue-green....towards cerulean :wave:

There lies the basic problem with seeing it that way.

But all this is irrelevant because the main...traditional way of seeing colour temperature has Ultra Blue warmer than Cerulean.

...and all importantly, the question here was about the relative colour temperature of tubes of paint.....and absolutely nothing to do with painting yellow light as the warmest colour.

LarrySeiler
09-02-2007, 12:54 PM
the burden of proof is on others making comment about how a blue is not supposed to be thought of as one temperature or the other when the paintings produced by an artist are working regardless....

Perhaps there is something more to an artist simply working consistently to their vein of thought that makes the painting work...in a relative way, but work just the same.

Its always going to strike any of us funny when our work earns a reputation over many years...and someone comes along to tell us how we are doing something or thinking about something is wrong.

Like someone saying you simply can't paint with a limited palette...yet have produced 200-300 paintings per year with the palette for a decade or so. No matter their insistence, those paintings don't simply disappear with a bewitched twinkle of the nose. They exist to hold their ground unapologetically so.

For myself...I see French Ultramarine Blue as a mixture of red plus blue. I see Phthalo Blue as yellow plus blue. Yellow...is warmer than red...and thus yellow mixed with blue will be warmer than the red mixed with blue.

It also comes down to perhaps where you live. If you paint outdoors or are influenced in your color choices because of what you have come to see outdoors, then your perception of what a particular blue represents may differ. Heck, Van Gogh didn't have to travel too far in France to come to Arles...where a totally different light could be witnessed and painted.

I'm sure the greens of Hawaii (based on conversations with painters that paint outdoor there) appear quite differently with the sun directly overhead nearer to the equator, than the greens of northern Wisconsin and upper Michigan.

To insist one is stupid or not seeing or thinking rightly because one doesn't come to agree...well, I'm 53 years of age...and it sounds a bit like my father, the now deceased police officer dealing with the youth of the 60's...

My dad's opinion was that everyone had a right to an opinion as long as it agreed with his... ;)

if it didn't...you was just plain stupid!

Stupid...ignorance...all that judgmental stuff aside, all I've known (after over 30 years of painting with some reputation) is that a bit of yellow, or Naples Yellow added to the blue warms up the sky; and yet, I won't have to bother adding yellow or Naples yellow to the blue to warm up the sky if the blue I'm using to begin with is a phthalo blue. It comes off feelin' warm enough all by itself.

To say that is stupid perhaps is to presume one has 30 years experience painting the sky here in northern Wisconsin where I live. If that is the case, please let me know when your next workshop is so that I might sign up immediately!!!

now...having said that...painting with a limited palette limits the choices for the viewer as well. Perhaps taking advantage of the viewer's mind, the psychology of what they want to see...using only Ultramarine blue...I can make the blue feel warmer or cooler by using the facility of compare and contrast. By limiting the viewer's options, I can manipulate much to cause to presume much...

LarrySeiler
09-02-2007, 01:04 PM
as a co-moderator of the forum...
In a broad way not fingering anyone, let me remind folks to feel free to attack the OPINION of an opinion'ator, but not attack the OPINION'ator of the opinions made. It is all part of the user agreement we sign in participating in this broad artist's community.

There is no cause or right to set folks straight that supercedes the agreement we sign in joining this community such that decency and decorum need not be followed. It is a privately owned community and we participate adhering to rules we have signed and agreed to.

Anyone wishing to disagree with that certainly has a right to invest in servers, a host...and begin their own online forum community. Then YOU can make the rules.

Play nice...agree...disagree, rip the opinions to shreds...but organize your thoughts in such a way before hitting the "send" button that no name calling, judging of a person's intelligence you are in disagreement with and so forth is committed. Period...

Larry

Einion
09-02-2007, 03:38 PM
You might feel it is a subjective thing, but it isn't.
It is a subjective thing; discussions here and in other parts of the site (as well as in other fora for that matter) have made that abundantly clear from well before you were even a member.

If you'd like to discount all those other members' opinions/views on the subject then that's your prerogative; doesn't automatically mean you're right and they're wrong just because you say it's so. That again is something we've seen here many times before, hence some parts of the ****Starting tips and posting guidelines**** (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298912) sticky near the head of the forum, which I'd like you to read now.

Einion

Einion
09-02-2007, 03:43 PM
Einion, I can't help that there are a few respected artists here that agree with you that Cerulean is a warm blue compared to Ultramarine.
I didn't say that Cerulean Blue is warmer than Ultramarine - I don't look at colour that way, period - I said, if you'd care to read what I actually posted, that of those two swatches the Cerulean looks warmer to me*. The difference between those two statements - "X is cooler than Y" and "X is cooler than Y to me" - is profound and shouldn't be overlooked in the haste to disagree.

One problem with the recognition of 'colour temperature' is that it's a learned response for most artists; while I personally think there's some inherency to the concept the extremely varied way that people talk about it (to the extent that they can agree in basic principle but disagree on the specifics, which is the heart of the matter here) shows that there is no question, none, that this is not a cut-and-dried factual issue like: which of two greys is lighter in value, what hue is between green and blue, what hue faces yellow-green on a colour wheel?

Another problem about the concept is that it's based on hue, and not on colour (hence the*). Once you bring in the other two dimensions you get into a world of complexity since chroma and lightness (saturation) play such a big part in the determination of 'warmth' or 'coolness'.

Have a read of this

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color12.html#warmcool

It spells it all out.
Have done, many times, over a number of iterations. Now, have you read the author's posts here on the same subject?

As in the traditional warm/cool relationships...ie, warm colours come forward...cool colours recede.
Oh no, not that one too. That's another 'fact', one which I personally dismantled in a past thread (and in numerous subsequent ones) and, since I imagine this will have more weight with you, which the Handprint author has also gone into great detail on.

Bottom line is this: there's a lot more going on with regard to recession than "warm colours advance, cool colours recede". And that's a fact :cool:

... but as I said earlier... that many forums are full of misinformation...
Hopefully in time you'll discover that this forum does its very best not to be one of them. But on the other hand we do strive to leave room for there being personal interpretations on many things so there may be no one right or wrong view ;)

Einion

Jim T
09-02-2007, 11:48 PM
To say that is stupid perhaps is to presume one has 30 years experience painting the sky here in northern Wisconsin where I live. If that is the case, please let me know when your next workshop is so that I might sign up immediately!!!




Alright.....If I feel the urge to do a workshop, I'll let you know :lol: ;) jkn.

Jim T
09-03-2007, 05:00 AM
Essentially, the whole warm/cool colour thing is one of the more trivial aspects to painting. But a simple question was asked.....about the relative temperature of Blues available in tubes of oil paint.


I didn't say that Cerulean Blue is warmer than Ultramarine - I don't look at colour that way, period - I said, if you'd care to read what I actually posted, that of those two swatches the Cerulean looks warmer to me*. The difference between those two statements - "X is cooler than Y" and "X is cooler than Y to me" - is profound and shouldn't be overlooked in the haste to disagree.

One problem with the recognition of 'colour temperature' is that it's a learned response for most artists; while I personally think there's some inherency to the concept the extremely varied way that people talk about it (to the extent that they can agree in basic principle but disagree on the specifics, which is the heart of the matter here) shows that there is no question, none, that this is not a cut-and-dried factual issue like: which of two greys is lighter in value, what hue is between green and blue, what hue faces yellow-green on a colour wheel?


Einion

With you saying in the above.......it's all a learned response is a cop out. If that's true, I could claim that "I see" green as warmer than red-orange?....and because I see it that way, then it only proves warm/cool colour theory isn't cut and dry?

Anyway......there are a million more important things to worry about other than warm/cool.

But getting back to Annie's desire for a limited palette of warm/cool colours.....then this an ok option

Cad Lemon = cool yellow
Cad yellow deep = warm yellow
Cad red = warm red
Alizarin Crimson = cool red
Ultramarine blue = warm blue
Cerulean Blue = cool blue

If you cannot afford the real cad & cerulean pigments, then paints labelled "hue" are the cheap artificial substitutes.

The 6 colours above are a good set to have on any palette for a beginner artist. However...if you like Cobalt blue instead of Cerlulean, then that's ok.

For experienced artists, you can use whatever you like and in any combination....from stuff all colours to a palette made up of hundreds.

Jim T
09-03-2007, 05:05 AM
....and if you're wondering about my palette, here's a piccie :wave:


http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/1042/palettepanoramaub1.jpg

PS you cant see the earth colours on the right....so just imagine about 6 more piles of paint


:eek:

Jim T
09-03-2007, 05:12 AM
Here's a photo with me in it as well as my palette :lol:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8056/wabbitpaljya9.jpg


;)

gunzorro
09-03-2007, 11:02 AM
Ah, Bunny! Always the fun and Theater of the Absurd! :)

I'd like to weigh in a bit on this, even though the subject is pretty well thrashed at this point. ;)

From my experience with all these grid paintings I've been doing, I've learned a lot about these specific colors. In these paintings, I have often used Ultramarine (not "French"), Cobalt Blue and Cerulean Blue (along with Prussian, Indanthrene and occasionally Phthalo) in adjacent boxes with the same under-color mixed in (often various earth colors, sometimes a grey) and the same titanium/flake white. So, there has been a lot of sequential repetition, not only on one canvas, but on several.

Brand of color choice is important, as there are a huge range of hues within each of these color labels. My personal preference was the deciding factor in predominantely using OH Ultramarine Blue Light, Puro Cobalt Blue and Puro Cerulean Blue in these pieces. I ran numerous comparisons between the colors in my collection for each of these colors, and my choices seemed to me to epitomize the hue for each. Somewhat subjective there, but I did have them all side by side and viewed in various light. (I have since gotten Vasari's Cobalt and Cerulean -- a sizable investment! -- and am anxious to give them a try in these grid paintings. They show excellent potenial in comparison to other brands.)

I don't usually consider colors as warm or cool, except for initial broad classification. Beyond that, it is really subjective and dependent on the adjactent colors in a painting -- far from the general color wheel concept. I can certainly see that one half the color wheel is "cool" and one half is "warm"! Not too tough a concern, there! I can also agree that red-orange (or orange-red, if you prefer) is the warmest color and a blue (you guys fight it out!) is the coolest.

But within each color, I find it humorous to try to split hairs and declare Alizarin cooler than Perylene, and on and on. To me, that starts to go beyond the color shorthand of the color wheel and into the need for a line of measured numerical designation (i.e. Munsell, or color space).

I'd like to note that French Ultramarine is quite different from Ultramarine, UB light or UM Deep. French is very much shifted toward violet, or purple, or red, depending on how you think of it. Ultramarine (synthetic Lapis), I find to be a nice clean blue without much shift in it -- just like a nice clean Cobalt Blue. In my grid paintings, it is almost impossible for me to distinquish Ultramarine from Cobalt in its subtle mix with the undercolors and in the resulting mix when tinted with the white! This was an eye-opener to me! I could pretty well prodcue same color with the far less expensive Ultramarine Blue. Cobalt only exceeded the UMB when used nearly straight from the tube at its highest purity and chroma -- even there it could nearly be matched by the UMB mixed with white! :)

Finally:
1) I see French (which I don't use) as being shifted toward violet,
2) UMB/Cobalt as fairly clean blues,
3) and Cerulean shifted toward green.
(This, without getting into a lecture about cyan being "true blue"!) I see the shifts to be approximately equal on either side of UMB/Cobalt, with these being about the center of the "cool" side of the color wheel. So, in my mental shorthand, I see them as about the same distance from the hottest "warm", making debate over which is warmer or cooler to be somewhat irrelevant. One is "greenish", one is "purplish". :)

LarrySeiler
09-03-2007, 11:26 AM
you got a sense of humor, Bunny...I like that! ;) :thumbsup:

AnnieA
09-03-2007, 04:00 PM
Wow...I leave for a day, and when I come back the thread has quadrupled in number of posts!

My thanks to all of you for the ideas put forth here. I don't know if you all realize how valuable it is for a newbie to a medium to read through a discussion between painters with so much more experience - even when you disagree vehemently - it's an amazing learning opportunity, and I appreciate it very much.

And now, since I have a social science background, let me throw another wrinkle into the discussion: http://www.psycport.com/stories/ascribe_2004_07_14_eng-ascribe_eng-ascribe_014026_988726893508805748.xml.html
"We found 85 variants in this gene," Tishkoff said. "That's approximately three times higher than what you see at any other random gene in the human genome. Usually, it's a bad thing to have too much change in a gene, and natural selection gets rid of it. But in this case, we're seeing the reverse. Genetic exchange, or conversion, between the red and green opsin genes has created a greater number of variations than we typically see, and natural selection is acting to maintain that variation."

Those variations may have been especially important, Verrelli and Tishkoff speculate, in a time when humans were hunter-gatherers. Enhanced color perception would have allowed women, who were traditionally gatherers, to better discriminate among colored fruits, insects and background foliage.

The X Factor

The chromosomal difference between women and men is the key to why variation of the OPN1LW gene may have different results in women and men. Women have two X-chromosomes; men have only one X-chromosome and one Y-chromosome. Because this color vision gene resides on the X-chromosome, rare detrimental changes at this gene cause color-blindness in males, whereas females are likely to have at least one good copy of the gene.

However, Verrelli and Tishkoff show that color vision changes can be beneficial too. Because females can have two different versions of this gene, but men can have only one, females may be able to perceive a broader spectrum of colors in the red/orange range. "Men and women may be literally seeing the world differently," Tishkoff said.

The essence of the article for our purposes (for those whose eyes glaze over upon reading social science stuff :lol:) is that color vision is determined by actual physiological differences caused by genes that have, due to natural selection, become more varied with time. This means there are far more variations in how we perceive color than the variations between individuals that occur for other human characteristics. In other words, when one person sees yellow as warmer and another sees red as warmer (or in this case, the difference between cobalt and ultramarine), it isn't just opinion, it's physiological. Those differences in perception that have been noted in this thread are actually hardwired into our brains!

gunzorro
09-03-2007, 06:01 PM
I think Bunny's point is "Some people's brains are just naturally better!" ;)
Hey, I'm only trying to start a fight! ;)

(We should make me "Brainwashed Jim" to Bunny's "Brainless Jim"! Otherwise it can be hard at times to tell the Jims apart. Besides, I likes a good scrubbin'!)

Jim T
09-19-2007, 12:39 AM
AnnieA,

Watch the video :wave:

http://www.gamblincolors.com/navigating.color.space/index.html

stoney
09-19-2007, 10:21 PM
Annie, you can get artist's grade Grumbacher Thalo Blue for less than $5 at Dick Blick. That's what I did. The color is so strong, and you'll use so little of it in mixes, that it doesn't really matter if you get a cheaper brand.

Grumbacher isn't a top brand any longer, but for this purpose they're fine.


Why do you say that? [curiosity]

stoney
09-19-2007, 10:41 PM
....and if you're wondering about my palette, here's a piccie :wave:


http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/1042/palettepanoramaub1.jpg

PS you cant see the earth colours on the right....so just imagine about 6 more piles of paint


:eek:

HOLY WAH!!!!!! I do hope you own an art shoppe with paint piles, and numbers of, like that.

Jim T
09-20-2007, 01:50 AM
HOLY WAH!!!!!! I do hope you own an art shoppe with paint piles, and numbers of, like that.

I find it relatively inexpensive with regards to the price of my paintings and the actual of paint wasted.

I've bogged about it here ; http://jimthalassoudis.blogspot.com/2007/03/art-of-waste.html

:thumbsup:

stoney
09-20-2007, 01:18 PM
I find it relatively inexpensive with regards to the price of my paintings and the actual of paint wasted.

I've bogged about it here ; http://jimthalassoudis.blogspot.com/2007/03/art-of-waste.html

:thumbsup:

Paint sculptor. :) Yeah, that would be a constructive use for the old paint.
That 5 x 10 and the painted pallet are both very nice.

Jeff Rage
09-20-2007, 09:40 PM
AnnieA,

Watch the video :wave:

http://www.gamblincolors.com/navigating.color.space/index.html
That was an awesome and informative video!

Richard Saylor
09-21-2007, 02:49 AM
Why do you say that? [curiosity]Cheaper paint tends to have a lower pigment concentration, but that is not necessarily a disadvantage with an industrial strength pigment such as pthalo blue. (People who are careless about mixing colors often complain that pthalo blue eventually works its way into every color on their palette. Of course, this is really the fault of the artist, not the color. Dipping a contaminated brush into a pile of clean paint is going to have its inevitable effect, especially when a pthalo is the contaminator.)

Richard

stoney
09-21-2007, 01:17 PM
AnnieA,

Watch the video :wave:

http://www.gamblincolors.com/navigating.color.space/index.html

Wild.

stoney
09-21-2007, 01:59 PM
Cheaper paint tends to have a lower pigment concentration, but that is not necessarily a disadvantage with an industrial strength pigment such as pthalo blue. (People who are careless about mixing colors often complain that pthalo blue eventually works its way into every color on their palette. Of course, this is really the fault of the artist, not the color. Dipping a contaminated brush into a pile of clean paint is going to have its inevitable effect, especially when a pthalo is the contaminator.)

Richard

Apologies for not being clear. I didn't catch there were two things which could be seen as questions. I agree about the 'not necessarily a disadvantage.'

My question related to the lady's statement; "Grumbacher isn't a top brand any longer, but for this purpose they're fine."