Care to be inspired...challenged, and discover new courage???

[LarrySeiler]

Okay...I was spending time on PAPA's website, found this one painter, then did a further search engine query on the guy. Joseph Mendez.....

Wow...the guy uses such intense pure bold color, colors you'd find yourself talking yourself out of using. Yet...so full of life. Here's a website...
http://www.robsongallery.com/mendez.html

do yourself a favor, and spend 30 minutes looking at his works. Then, come on back here...and let's talk plein air color. I'm ready to paint!!!!

Larry

[Painted Melody]

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the link. His work is eye popping, I love the flood of warm lights.

I was also noticing the size of his work. I have been taught that, the larger the canvas, the less application of pure color should be added. It seems that, if you have too much bright color on a large canvas, it will work in reverse and dull the painting.

Do you agree?

I hope you don't mind me posting another url (I will take it out if it's a bother) -- I always enjoy vibrant color paintings, but I'm equally inspired and awe struck when grey/atmosphere is used wonderfully as color. I think of this landscape artist:

Charles Warren Mundy

http://cwmundy.com/

Jeremy

[tuatara]

Thanks you two for such inspiring artist links. The colour used by both of them is fantastic and oh so diverse. One similarity that spoke personally to me was the refined, constrained and limited used of very dark darks. Both seemed relatively high key in colour and that made for such interesting colourful tonal choices. There were darks but they were judiciously placed and not over used. Itching to paint too!!!

regards Pam:)

[LarrySeiler]

Heh Jeremy...if in our talking we learn something beneficial about color, getting bolder....then that's what its about...so no problem mentioning Mundy. I've seen a lot of his work in the American Art Review magazines. He has a unique style. Many works look like he paints them, then takes a painter's knife and slashes thru all the adjacent areas so that edges run into each other.

As for large areas...most plein air painters paint small because of time contraints, but some having access to a site where conditions are similar day after day opt to do larger pieces.

How big the piece is as to how large a bright colored area is, is somewhat relevant I would think to where the viewer is going to stand anyway. That sold stilllife image of Mendez's (Stilllife With Roses) is a 16" x 20" which is larger than many plein airs..yet look how large that bright yellow green area is in the background. I'd not say that this piece is dull by any means.

With color...the artist tends to be conservative with the notion that if everything is shouting, "nothing gets heard." Mendez's works seem to shout pretty loud and clear. They work....and its amazing to my eye.

Larry

[DLGardner]

Thank you both for sharing these websites.

Mendez is bright, but Larry, your paintings are bright too and have always amazed me how realistic these colors can be. I remember one time I painted an Arizona sunset and someone told me that my sky colors were unreal. Whoa! look at the pink, the lavender, the turquoise and prussian blue in an Arizona sunset and tell me those aren't real. Not to mention the way the earth is all of a sudden gold tone...but oh well. I think some people just don't see it. When I see your paintings, Larry, and also in Mendez, I have new faith in mankind's eyesight! Why yes, there really is orange in those leaves!

As for Mundy...I see myself leaning towards his tones. Not sure why...maybe because they are softer, more subtle, but still very much alive and colorful. It may be the fact that I've lived in a less sun lit part of the US for the last few years and the bright colors hurt my eyes. Even when I think I am brightening my paintings up they still come out very drab.

I'll get it someday though.
Thanks for the thread Larry.
Dianne

[Ruth]

Although they all exhibit a full range of color, many of Mendez's works have a dominant complementary color scheme, which helps with the zing. Especially noticeable were a purple/yellow painting of aspen trees, a blue/orange painting of a mountain and lake, a red-orange/blue-green painting of olive grove. Some of these colors seen by themselves may not be so intense, but placed in context with the complements they seem to glow.

In the mountain and lake painting, the mountain is blue and the foreground is orange, but even the green trees are touched with orange where they come next to the blue, so both are intensified.

That's what jumped out at me on first visit. Going back for another look later.

Thanks Larry!

Ruth

[blondheim12]

I prefer Mundy's paintings. More subtle.

Love,
Linda

[Wayne Gaudon]

Thanks Larry .. My Fave .. "Chrysanthemums"


This has been great
.. I did myMustard Field last night and was contemplating what I did wrong as I just didn't get the feel I was after ... was thinking I went overboard with the yellow but now I see I went far too limited on the rest of the piece and chose the wrong sky colors. The field should work when i adjust the sky and foilage. Thank you, now I have a place to experiment with as the whole idea of the painting was a yellow gold field.

[impressionist2]

I love Mundy's paintings in Am. Art Review, of the ballerinas looking in the mirror. He is a true American impressionist.

I think Mendez is terrific. They really are birds of a different color, so I don't really get a comparison. Both are great at what they do.

Mendez is what I go for in my paintings. It's the old Sovek "punch" thing. It's beautiful greys with a socko warm vs. cool thing and when done correctly, the painting jumps off the support.

Renee

[Wayne Gaudon]

Why don't you rip a person in two pieces.

Just went in and looked at Mundys stuff .. wow .. I can't decide which one I like best but I do like Mundy's style better. I love bright colors so I like Mendez's colorings. I'm torn .. one has color and the other has style.

Think we could get these guys to cooperate and make one paintinig :D
I could then choose both as the one I like best.

[LarrySeiler]

Mundy's work is something that has always caught my attention, but I think more because of his textural treatments of paint.

His work tends to be often very tonal....
to some degree I was surprised to hear Linda's preference to Mundy because of his subtleties, which as an expressionist painter I thought she flip over Mendez boldness.

Between the two however, as a plein air painter...personally, I have to gravitate more toward Mendez, simply because he is a plein air painter and I can see and sense the reaction of his because of light that he sees. Mundy is more properly a studio painter from what I know.

One thing that tends to come out in studio painting is a tendency toward treatment of color and subjects "tonally"....

Many studio painters (which I was for about 17-20 years) make use of photo references....and film chemistry as well as thru the lens metering preferences make colors relative to settings that the shutter and camera select. IF the camera should prioritize a bright light, it will cause colors in the dark to be lost and register simply as darks, grays, blacks...etc; if the camera prioritizes the shadows so that you can see some hint of color there, then the lights are pushed so bright that it takes on a whiteness and loses its hint of color.

The eye, on the other hand takes in color existing in both sources of light and shadows, and it is left up to the creative mind to prioritize color. However....painting on location usually minimizes if not eliminates much of the greys, blacks and whites familiar to use of photo references.

I put together a chart sometime ago that I use in teaching students how to look at the art of others....and did share it once in the color theory forum. People there either did not get it, nor understand its significance. I'll paste it here, and see if it makes sense.....

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-May-2002/tonewheel_examples.jpg

My methods of painting for near 20 years was tonal. "Tonal" means that the eliptical circle you arrive at in analyzing your own painting will incorporate a degree of black and white. A colorist eliminates black....and how strong s/he as a colorist uses come next depends on the amount of white added to the mix.

I learned to paint back in the early 70's by copying images of Rembrandt and Frans Hals. Though of course, they did not use cameras, their system was based on a rote manner from academic training in strictly controlled apprenticeships. Of course, as they matured as artists they bent rules and came up with their own devices. Still, such training had an affect (similar to a camera) that would prioritize use of color and light in how to go about making a painting.

Just like there are three primaries that make virtually all color, there are three aspects of "tone"...for which color, white, and black make. You can basically study paintings of others, and like the example above...circle their main construct.

What this "tone" model does in effect, is give you a system to analyze how a painter not only uses color, but how they arrive at producing values. Perhaps for this reason, the chart didn't go over so well in the other forum there because quite a few artists believe the only way to make true value is with black added to color. In fact, a good many believe colorists to be very poor at judging values.

My suggestion is...analyze Mendez (and others) use of color and values to identify where they stand on the chart. Identify Mundy's...and you should detect some fundamental differences. Next..identify your own...and see which camp of thought/practice you stand. IF your paintings Wayne, seem to identify more with Mundy's approach, this gives you a bit of a signal to pay more attention to those that appear to master a direction you are heading anyway. If Mendez's...etc., etc., -Larry

[LarrySeiler]

thanks for the comparison Dianne...but, well...I get the sense looking at Mendez work that its a direction I'm somewhat going and my eyes told me instantly to pay attention! He's onto something. Somewhere in my psyche, I must be yet a bit constrained or held back. Reserved.

Some tonalists here at WC have more or less said that if there is one fundamental reason my color as a colorist is working its due to the many years of foundational work I had as a tonalist. If that is true, in their estimation...then it is possible that for that very same reason I am still too natural in my estimation of light and color on location.

I can't force myself to see color I'm not seeing....so, I don't intend to force color on my canvas. However, seeing Mendez's work does encourage me that when I'm squinting my eyes and sensing existing color I need perhaps to be yet more sensitive and when I sense a color....trust my instincts more.

I encourage learning from looking at other's work...but, I'm not suggesting one attempts to alter themselves and become like another artist. Everyone so often though, I see some works and think..."wow, I wish I had painted that!" ....somehow it is stating more perfectly what I think my heart has been yearning to say. When those moments do arrive, and they are not often...I try and pay attention.

I won't become a Mendez however....because I am yet struck by some of the subtleties and control that painters like Clyde Aspevig have. I suppose I'll fall somewhere in between...and, if I'm painting with integrity...I can't ask anything more of myself.
peace,

Larry

[Wayne Gaudon]

Larry
.. months ago it would have been Mundy all the way but since I started going out and painting instead of taking pictures I see differently.
Color is now jumping out at me as I am beginning to now see color in mass (if you will). From my photo references, I saw trees and pond and tried to paint the trees and pond. I am really new to plein air but I find each time out I am trying to paint the masses of color knowing that if I can paint the color I will arrive at trees and pond without ever painting trees and pond (if that makes any sense).
With that being said, Mendez will undoubtly become a factor. I can relate to Mundy's brush work as it is the direction I am heading .. loose and free and I see in it a resemblence to the textures of Gruppe's teachings and style.

This has been a real informative thread for me because I can now get a good eyeful of color theory and brushwork from 2 very different and equally good artists.

later,

[blondheim12]

His work tends to be often very tonal....
to some degree I was surprised to hear Linda's preference to Mundy because of his subtleties, which as an expressionist painter I thought she flip over Mendez boldness.


Not so Larry. I am a big fan of tonalist painters. I appreciate their skill and subtlety. Many colorists use too high a chroma for shock effect, without learning the use of neutrals to make color punch.
I have the good sense to admire what I am not. The idea that plein air painters can't be tonalists is simply not true. Some of the best regional plein air painters I know are tonalists and I am very envious of their skill.
Love,
Linda
http://pleinairflorida.org

[Yorky]

Not my medium, Larry, but I enjoyed the Robson Gallery experience. Did you check out Ken Auster's paintings? Some of his city street paintings are what I assume you are thinking of with your big city plein air group?

Doug

[LarrySeiler]

Yeah...Doug, Auster's works are really something. They really sparkle light.

Linda-

I'll have to agree that some of the finest painters/masters have been our tonalists of the late 1800's and early 1900's such as John Singer Sargent, William M. Chase, etc...

As a system of painting...any unified method can pull of successful paintings, and I find myself in awe at the museums standing there taking in a Sargent, or an Henri, or Chase.

Still...it is a curiosity to me. When I stand outdoors painting, I see the neutrals and grays...but, they appear as grays that have a hint of color. A grey with a hint of color that is best mixed with complementaries and adjustments with white to arrive at proper value, IMHO.

I wonder if it was a matter of having become accustomed to mixing greys with black and white, so it simply was easier to continue working with a "working system?" No further thinking on it was necessary. Or...did their eye actually see an absence of color in the neutrals or grays? Did they not see color hidden within the blacks?

There is a science of course to using neutrals and grays such that less color means existing color might shout stronger. Then again, sensing complementaries in those neutrals might cause color to shout also.

Its not that I don't recognize very good artists painting from life using a tonalist system. I imagine though that color must be ignored for what they think will make for them a better painting. Thus, you have to shut down some of what you're seeing and substitute a system. Not saying that doesn't work. It just doesn't emulate for me anyway, the life that exists in the presence of things living.

I would have loved sitting around the cafes though, with Sargent and his Impressionist friends (whom were dear to him)...and listen to their exchange. I'm sure these things came up.

Larry

[tuatara]

I have always thought that some people are naturally drawn to using colour as an expressive means and some people are naturally tonal. Tone is something that is very very difficult for me to get right instintively without analysis. Colour however is a different matter. It can be so personal and work in many different ways. Some of my friends however seem to be tonal minded, yet struggle more with colour. My feelings are that there are some people that can get great tone and very strong colour together, but not many so I agree with Linda on this! I think the strongest works on the Mendez site are the still lifes. Beautiful colour and tone, ie the tonal work in the shadow areas has amazing colour!!!

What are your thoughts on this? Do some people have certain tendencies naturally or are they all learned through study.

By the way Larry, great discussion going on here!

Renee, can you enlighten a dummy here, Who or what is Sovek?:)

regards Pam

[CarlyHardy]

I know one thing...I'm going to begin working on some larger canvases! I feel so constrained by the small sizes that I'm using now. I'd rather paint for three or four days on a larger size than 3 hours on a small painting. Seeing the size of Mendez' plein air work has given me courage!!

I see the use of full-color (or full-spectrum) technique in his work. The areas in light begin with warm undertones and areas in shadow begin with cool colors. Of the two artists, his work appeals to me the most. But it could be because I see color like that....I just don't have the ability to put it on the canvas like that!

carly

[Phyllis Rennie]

Thanks, Larry. Inspired...challenged...and encouraged!!!!!

When I look at work like Mendez'---I find the courage to ignore those who tell me that I should tone down my colors. I've tried to take their advise in the past but don't enjoy the results.

Maybe with enough trying........and practice..............

[LarrySeiler]

Originally posted by Phyllis Rennie
When I look at work like Mendez'---I find the courage to ignore those who tell me that I should tone down my colors. I've tried to take their advise in the past but don't enjoy the results.

that was my take on his work Phyllis. I guess I was settling into a comfort zone. One of production and ease. Suddenly, I see Mendez's work and I had a double take, like ..."www-uh..HUH???" :confused: :eek:

Then...I realize, there exists some further direction for me if I'm willing to push the envelope a bit. That's one reason I enjoy seeing the works of others so much. Always some fresh vision out there.

Larry

[owens1299]

I have fallen in love with this artist's works... Wayne Morrell... He lives in Mass. now, but his work is awesome... these were only 2 sites that I could find on him... and they don't even show some of this better pieces... I love the colors that he uses and how he works in the natural light in... I own one of his prints and is beautiful... it is one of his many paintings that he painted while at Monet's gardens...

http://www.drloriv.com/morrell/default.asp

http://piercegalleries.com/web-morrell.htm

But, I just wanted to state that I have learned soo much from this thread... thank you for starting it... btw... I like the other 2 artists that have been talked about here also... :)

[israelyang]

Hey Larry, the diagram you made is really cool, that's a science mind in you.

After reading the thread, I think I am more of a tonalist. When I paint, I am usually more concerned with the value instead of the colour (unconciously) and thinking as long as the values are right in the painting, the painting will look right, with less regard to the colours. Of course I still try to match the colours but that's not the priority. And all these choices while painting are intuiative. I only found this out about myself after reading the thread.

israel

[JanB]

Just tried the link to the mendez website and it didn't work :crying: ... all the WC'ers looking today probably overloaded the site LOL, I'm going to try again tomorrow.

[Van Gough]

Here's a website...
http://www.robsongallery.com/mendez.html
Larry

Larry when I try your link I get the message that the site can't be found.

Even if I put the address in manually without the /mendez.html.

What gives?

VG

[LarrySeiler]

wow...this was pulled up from some time ago...three years ago nearly! That's probably why the site might not be working right now, don't know. But, links to the artist are available easily enough putting his name into Google..

I came up with several working at the moment....

http://www.p-a-p-a.com/ArtistPage.asp?varID=17
http://www.cagoldartists.org/jm/jm.htm


enjoy...

Israel...it is an interesting diagram for figuring this out isn't it! Is interesting to help judge the works of painters.

thing is though...don't think that people not using the black side of the three (color white black) aren't capable of good strong values. I use no black, but my darks are as dark as perhaps anyone. FOr my eye...its what the presence of black does to color...sorta snuffs the life right out of 'em IMHO... though some artists are excellent with black with limited use....

Larry

[JanB]

Thanks for updating those links Larry I didn't even notice that this was an older thread!! So, has your approach to color gotten bolder since you first posted this thread?

[LarrySeiler]

Thanks for updating those links Larry I didn't even notice that this was an older thread!! So, has your approach to color gotten bolder since you first posted this thread?

I'm always open to learn...and any teacher should feel such an obligation. I'll experiment at times...but in the end what is most important is knowing you are you and only you are most qualified to be you. No one can be you for you.

What that translates to is understanding there are many styles and intrigues in looking at the works of other artists. In some, you might see a hint of something that has worked out for another, a thing you've been standing knocking on the door trying to figure out yourself, and so naturally you pay more attention.

There already is a Joseph Mendez that lives to be a gift to the world. There already is a Lee Haber, a Marc Hanson...and they are all unique and special, as there is RI...Ben, Frank, Pierre, Ruth, Linda...on and on including yourself and me.

As I sit up and take notice of what someone has accomplished, I do so with also a bit of reserve not wanting to throw the baby out with the water.

I think when you are looking for a particular thing...not just one artist's work will strike you....but a half-dozen, or dozen. Suddenly those artists seem to pop out as though they just showed up on the scene, but really they've no doubt been there quite awhile. ITs just that you yourself have arrived at a point where you are ready to observe and see a thing and consider it.

In 2002 (when I first posted this notice)...I was yet in full swing of my split primary palette...but at the moment I am using half that palette in a limited way. I can thank Marc in part for that...as I was already considering trying the limited palette being an admirer of Scott Christensen's work. As Marc spoke more about the palette himself it was more or less a confirmation of what I had been considering.

So...an odd thing happened for me. I wanted to develop more, but do so by giving myself less to work with. I saw in Scott's work...and Marc's more confirmation in experimenting with a direction than I did in Josephs.

A person may see all sorts of yummy snacks, cakes, and desserts on a table all laid out with an announcement given to come and enjoy. The desires of the heart immediately react with glee to dig in...but seeing all that your conscience may point out that in reality your body needs better REAL food, nutrition.

Often when I see what works for another...I find myself encouraging and happy for that artist...but I have to ask what is best for me? Who am I...and if I abdicate the work I am doing, who will carry it on for me?

So...though the child within wants unrestricted freedom...the parent within steps forward with what is best for the moment. I feel that I have learned to paint fairly bold color and strong darks when I want them though I have only a limited palette. Sometimes there is impatience in wanting to flip thru the pages and read some of what's in store in up and coming chapters of the book. Thing is...in so doing we may spoil the moment and not bother wanting to read where we are at. I'm at a chapter right now in the book of painting of my life that I feel is important for me. Its to learn the power of reserve.

All the eye candy is exciting...and seeing how it excites viewers is surely tempting. There is something deep calling onto deep here at the moment, and I don't want to miss its whisper in the midst of all the noise and clamour.

I just saw another painter whose work just really really caught my eye, in the latest Plein Air Magazine I just received in the mail...my heart and eyes went "HOly cow!!!!!"

Then I follow that moment up with a reminder that HE as the artist already exists!

As a musician/performer its sorta like the decision of...."do I sing and perform as a cover artist (doing other's songs) or write and perform my own?"

You certainly can keep yourself busy as a musician getting hired out do the favorite songs of the crowd done by better knowns, and making good money to boot. Inside every true artist is the desire to sing one's own song and have the message of it taken to heart. To deny that inspite of the success and demand leads to a very empty place for an artist.

long rant....sorry...

I like Mendez work. Has it affected mine? I don't know. I suppose seeing everyone's work accumulates to have some impression or effect that can't be measured.

take care

Larry