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johndill01
03-18-2007, 08:47 PM
Yesterday, here in NorhtWest Arkansas, there was a regional art show, with artists from 4 state represented. The judge was gracious enough to stay after the judging and critique each of the winning paintings. One of the things he stressed several times was the choice of color for a matted piece, be it watercolor or pastels. His comments were that in larger shows, unless the color of the main mat exactly matches a color in the artwork, the piece is frequently bypassed. His suggestion was for a white or cream colored mat. I know that this has been stressed before, but apparently it bears repeating again.

More than once, he commented on either the size or the brightness of the signature, which he stressed draws the eye away from the center of interest. Neutral colors and smaller signatures work best. Again, I know that this subject has been discussed, but there are still many who make the sig so large, it is impossible to miss. I personally like the way Dianne Ponting places her signature on her artwork. The lady who won this competition had placed her signature close to the center of interest, but disguised well enough in the painting that one had to search for the sig.

One other thing stressed on multiple paintings were not enough darks to make the piece really sing.

In his opening comments, he stressed trying as often as possible to get into juried shows. His personal experience was a best of show, one of display and not being juried into a show, all in the last 3 months.

Hope this helps at least one future winner. Have fun and keep painting.

John

Donna T
03-18-2007, 09:19 PM
Thanks, John, I appreciate that info. The part about how to do the signature was especially helpful. I never feel comfortable making my signature stand out from the artwork and I like to make people work a little if they really want to find it.

Donna T

Bhavana Vijay
03-18-2007, 09:58 PM
Thank you for the information John...I found it very interesting. I love the way Dianne Ponting signs too.

David Patterson
03-18-2007, 11:17 PM
Great info John. I'm framing some of my work without a mat. I've read that if done right, that look can have a positive impact on the juror.

David

Kathryn Wilson
03-18-2007, 11:31 PM
Dang, I wish these jurors would stop stressing over the mat colors. I realize that the wrong mat can really influence the look of a painting, but it seems to me that someone with enough experience would know to look further and not judge a painting on the mat.

Maybe some day we will get rid of mats altogether and just use the spacers. Where will they be then - what else can they blame on the non-judging of a painting?

Maybe we should have "mat" jurors and "frame" jurors. Sheesh, get a life already.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Pat Isaac
03-19-2007, 07:45 AM
Thanks, for the tips, John and this is a subject that they go round and round on....colored mats. I do know that around here there are no colored mats...it's such a no, no. Anyway, there was some good advice here.

Pat

bluefish
03-19-2007, 07:54 AM
I once had a 'juror' comment that I should have signed the painting on the back because that's what he does - can you believe that? I think 'jurors' should have some 'professional certification' before they are allowed to judge! Maybe we should eatablish a 'WC School for Jurors' - if they can graduate, they get a certification to judge!:p ........'bluefish'

Pat Isaac
03-19-2007, 08:19 AM
:lol: Not a bad idea.....

Pat

Kathryn Wilson
03-19-2007, 08:21 AM
I wonder what would happen if paintings were judged without frame, mat or glass. The on-line submissions come close to that.

Pat Isaac
03-19-2007, 08:27 AM
That's true, Kat and what about all the shows that require slides for judging. Same thing.

Pat

Constellation
03-19-2007, 09:52 AM
Judged shows are a "crap shoot".... I've seen a blue ribbon go to a painting that was hung upside down....go figure!

Donna Roth

needtopaint
03-19-2007, 10:53 AM
I, for one, love colored mats when they become an extension of the painting itself. White mats, to me, close the work in - box it if you will. Not only that, I love such dark darks that white is not generally complimentary to MY work. It makes the white mat the immediate eye-grabber. I always think of high school when I see white around MY stuff. But then, I've yet to enter a competition. That would change everything! Right now, I'm only trying to please myself.

I've tried to upload a couple examples - actually, I've been trying for an hour. I apologize if they do not work. And they'll probably be dark. Argh...

Christine

P.S. Yep, very dark indeed...

johndill01
03-19-2007, 12:38 PM
In reference to this particular judge, he did pick two paintings with colored mats. His comments were more directed at someone wanting to compete in large shows. By the same token, he moved a pastel portrait, obviously painted from flash photo, because the shadow from the flash was painted in, into the drawing and sketching field, I think primarily because there were only two entries in that field.

The idea of creating a juror test is a great idea, but would probably not fly outside of WC.

A comment was also made on a large oil that was painted on gallery wrap canvas, with the edges painted the same color as the background. His thoughts were that a good frame would enhance this particular piece, even though he did place the painting.

Juried shows are always a crap shoot. Just depends on the background of the juror(s) and how they are feeling at any given time. I felt that in this show there were some excellent works left out.

John

PeggyB
03-19-2007, 04:30 PM
Dang, I wish these jurors would stop stressing over the mat colors. I realize that the wrong mat can really influence the look of a painting, but it seems to me that someone with enough experience would know to look further and not judge a painting on the mat.

Maybe some day we will get rid of mats altogether and just use the spacers. Where will they be then - what else can they blame on the non-judging of a painting?

Maybe we should have "mat" jurors and "frame" jurors. Sheesh, get a life already.

Thanks for letting me vent.

I'm not sayin' this is right Kat, but it is human nature to judge the "book by the cover" - we make judgements all the time based upon what the "packaging" looks like. Mats and frames are part of the presentation (packaging)of artwork. Most people of a "certain" age do not like to see young people covered in tatoos and piercings, and tend to disregard them as not being acceptable to those who respect more traditional appearances. Most people of a certain degree of accomplishment in art have their preferences based upon tradition too, and that includes the packageing of paintings.

Art is way too subjective to ever allow for a "juror test" :lol: Who is going to determine what constitutes "good art"? The abstract artist? the photorealist? the impressionist? the commercially trained artist?, the fine art trained artist? See where I'm going with this? Even those who've been educated in all types of painting will not agree from day to day what is "good" and what is "mediocre". For that matter, anyone I know who's done much juroring or judging in an honest moment will admit that in a show of quality, what grabs their attention and gets an award today may go entirely unrecognized if they were doing the judging tomorrow.

John, it sounds as though your judge did a good job, and I greatly admire him for sticking around to give the critiques. I've been there and done that. People sometimes forget judges are human too, and too often can be (have been!)verbally attacked by a disgruntled artist or the spouse of one - no, I've not had this happen to me. Unlike law school, there are no hard and fast rules to follow when judgeing art - only general guidelines and a lot of personal reaction.

Peggy

bluefish
03-19-2007, 05:46 PM
Zelda - you're the 'judge' this week and I'm in the show - but remember next months show I'm 'judging' and you're in it -

No further comments - everyone can draw their own conclusions!

David Patterson
03-19-2007, 08:24 PM
Zelda - you're the 'judge' this week and I'm in the show - but remember next months show I'm 'judging' and you're in it -

No further comments - everyone can draw their own conclusions!

There goes "bluefish"...throwing out the bait again!:D

Kathryn Wilson
03-19-2007, 08:25 PM
I am playing devil's advocate here - maybe to have people think about it:

If a juror should see a painting submission (either digital or slide) that he absolutely loves, but when he sees the mat or framing job that he does not care for and thinks less of the painting because of that factor - does he love the painting any less, or is he judging on the framing and mat?

Kathryn Wilson
03-19-2007, 08:29 PM
Needtopaint: I love your two pastels and the mats that go with them. They might fall under the category of mat matching the predominant color in a painting.

PeggyB
03-19-2007, 09:07 PM
I am playing devil's advocate here - maybe to have people think about it:

If a juror should see a painting submission (either digital or slide) that he absolutely loves, but when he sees the mat or framing job that he does not care for and thinks less of the painting because of that factor - does he love the painting any less, or is he judging on the framing and mat?

:evil: Oh you little devil you! :evil: :lol: Ok, I'll play too.

It depends entirely upon the judge - I've seen this too! Some judges insist that a painting isn't "finished" until it is signed and framed. Some judges prefer "traditional" finishes, but will put that preference aside if they really like the painting whereas others just can't see the forest for the trees, and insist upon what they think of as being "appropriate" matting and framing.

As an artist just beginning the competition scene, this can really be difficult because you haven't been around long enough to learn what the various judges like. For that matter, being human judges can with time change their mind about what they prefer thereby further complicating the whole ordeal.

Prospectus frequently give you an idea of how the sponsor wants the work presented. Since "neutral" seems to be the primary manner at this time, it saves everyone time and money to comply. Sometimes it isn't even the judges who are the "culpert" - sometimes it is the gallery hosting the event that demands neutral matting and framing for any number of reasons - usually because they know that's what they can market!

Reality of the whole issue is, if you want to seriously compete for prizes, comply with tradition and/or the prospectus. If your only goal is to get into a show, frame any way you want. That way you don't have to wonder what type of framing and matting a judge wants because you're not interested in prizes. Go for your goal, not what someone else thinks you should be going for. Who knows, maybe your off colored decorator cut mat is exactly what some client who sees the show is looking for and you may not get an award, but you do sell the work! The only question is, did they like your painting or did the painting and framing match their living room sofa? but Hey! who cares if you get a pay check? :evil:

Peggy

Donna A
03-20-2007, 12:21 AM
Hi! I did the juroring part of an exhibition 2 weekends ago with the entered slides and jpegs---and I'm really curious to see the show hanging in two weeks when I do the awards portion from the actual paintings hanging in the gallery. Aside from what may or may not come thru in the slides/jpegs, I am very interested in seeing how the pieces are presented. There are sooo many strong pieces that it's going to be really tough to make final choices, I suspect. It surely was with the in/out jurying. (All of which makes for a lovely show!!!) :-)

I definitely think that the artist is responsible, when framing him/herself, for the look of the entire painting presence. I've seen some 'scarey' choices in some shows. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!!!! Painting was really nice in utter isolation, but when stuck into the neighborhood the artist picked out for the framing----argh!!!! The framing needs to honor, respect, and support the painting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another scarey thing-----an art juror who is so isolated within his/her personal Likes/Dislikes that there is no room for simple respect and good taste of what can support and enhance a painting in the framing. Good Grief! Yes---it's all a "crap shoot." Toss of the dice.

Signatures----we've all seen a few horrid choices. Subtle makes sense to me. Something that mellows in to the painting, but is still 'find-able!' For goodness sakes!!!! It's a PART of the painting! Really!!!! It's just part of making a painting that Works! Then---signing on the back just sounds silly to me and for some judge to 'suggest' to someone that they 'do like I do and....' Yikes!

I'm judging another show the end of this month up in Nebraska----a miniature show that is 'open' as long as the stated guidelines of 'miniature' are followed. I'll only need to juror the awards---so for me, it will be interesting to see the works only as they are presented in the show itself---compared to the other one that is 'half-done' right now.

I wrote a 'note' for the show officials to include in the acceptance/declined notices which I encluded below. They had had some concerns at this gallery about further 'educating' artists on best proceedures, etc. for submitting works for jurying. I encluded a few comments about that as well as other things that I think might be useful for the artists. Anyway---thought some of you might find it interesting to see a juror's thoughts about a particular show. By the way---the offer I made artists to email me with questions about works either in or out has led to a lot of really lovely requests for more feedback. Take good care! Donna ;-}

Images Gallery Juried Show ~ March 2007
Comments from Juror Donna Aldridge
www.aldridgestudios.com [email protected]

What a wonderful array of artwork you all have presented! I was delighted to enjoy viewing such a broad spectrum of creative expressions! It was very difficult to make the needed choices of what to rule out, which is a testament to your very many fine pieces! The show will be delightfully eclectic with many different mediums as well as varied in subject matter and styles by the individual artists. I think that makes for a marvelous experience for the viewers who visit the gallery.

There were so many pieces I would love to have included in the show, and indeed I selected a few more than the limits suggested by the gallery. It felt like I cut far beyond the quick, yet I believe any juror has that felling when fortunate enough to have such a wealth of fine works. When I see the pieces IRL (in real life) in a few weeks, there may be a regret or two since the jurying process necessarily uses images “second hand” via slides or digital. In high school, my debate coach told us that we would loose some we should not, win some we should have lost — and that most of it seems to even out as it should. That is something I’ve always kept in mind when entering a juried show! :-)

One of the gifts we artists have to share with others is a different way of looking at, at SEEING the world around us — which opens up and enriches the world for our viewers. Perhaps in our earliest stages of creating artwork, we might have sought the mere satisfaction of doing something that ‘the lady next door’ would recognize as some particular Object. But we eventually grow in understanding of our own very unique expression and view point as well as our medium(s).

I looked for striking compositions and concepts in works that are some combination of evocative; fresh; heartful; well-engineered; seemingly ‘authentic,’ flowing from the artist’s intuitive; well-understood color; full of dynamic energies; cooly-considered; fascinating; beguiling; having an artist’s unique viewpoint — and command of the medium (most all the time). I do believe that ‘command of the medium’ is very important, and something to be sought for — but used in support of expressing the fascination with the subject matter in the moment! (Technique is the vocabulary, not the content!)

Almost all the artists who entered either their slides or digital images for this show did a wonderful job of preparing and presenting their work. Something that may not occur to some artists is that how we present our work suggests to judges the regard we have for our creative efforts. It is often difficult-to-impossible to consider what a piece of artwork actually looks like when there are ‘adverse conditions’ in the presentation. I know of judges who simply ignore any work not cleanly presented. One of the first ‘lessons’ I was given forever-ago about archiving and also presenting work for jurying is to include nothing-nothing-nothing but the image of the art itself for 2-dimension work, and with the utmost simple background in complimentary value/color for 3-dimensional work. For 2-dimension, that means no frame, no mat or liner, no glass with glare and certainly no off-square space surrounding when the image has not been squared up, either when capturing by slide or squared up using a computer program with digitals if shot off-square. Slides need to be masked off with the special silver tape for that very specific use, which we get at a photo or art store. I was so pleased to see that almost all of you have done a meticulous job of this! Hooray!

There were some very fine, very professional pieces that have not been included in this show. That is because sometimes I did not see something ‘new’ from piece to piece, sometimes because some small compositional issue seemed less than my perception of that artist’s overall fine abilities, and sometimes — simply because I liked some piece(s) by some particular person more than another’s. Each juror chooses a different show. I remember ‘way-back-when’ several decades ago the very same painting I’d done took best-of-show in one exhibit and was not accepted into another show. It was a wonderful learning experience. “T’ain’t fair, McGee” as my mom would say about things sometimes. Yep! (Dang!!!)

Please feel free, if you would like to know why I accepted or did not accept a piece(s) of yours, to email me with an image of your work and your questions — and I’ll be very happy to share my thoughts with you. I think it can be so seemingly mysterious what-in-the-world a juror was thinking (or not!) when they made their selections for a show. I must say I was surprised by some of the choices I made — but I can tell you in depth the ‘Whys’ of my choices. Today in class, someone was asking about the style of a juror for an up-coming national show. One of my comments was, “no matter what the personal style of a juror, we must not think that their selections will narrowly parallel their style.” I’m always fascinated to see how ‘eclectic’ my own preferences seem to be, yet so much in line with what I hold in highest esteem: unique personal/intuitive/authentic expression and viewpoint, well-understood sense of color, well-engineered composition, an active sense of the light source and resulting shadows, dynamic energies — and a comfort in the medium. Very best wishes! —Donna

Shari
03-20-2007, 01:51 AM
i would like to understand the slide thing. So if a slide is in a slide mount, you still need to put silver tape around it? I never heard of this before. Can you explain further about this. Can you also give information about submitting jpegs? They don't look the same on each monitor so is there a way to calibrate them? do you submit them RGB or CMYK? thanks.

johndill01
03-20-2007, 09:17 AM
Shari: what Donna is talking about is to totally block out any type of background (or crop the slide) if the artwork does not totally fill the slide. Many different sizes of artwork will not completely fill the slide area and any type of background showing when the slide is projected detracts from the presentation. When doing any type of photography of artwork, it is absolutely necessary to have the camera's backplane totally square to the artwork. Otherwise, the photo is distorted. Professional photographers that copy artwork or photo's use an especially designed copy stand to keep the camera back aligned parallel to the artwork and also to center the lens over the piece being photographed, to eleminate any distortion.

Hope this helps.

John

John

bluefish
03-20-2007, 10:28 AM
this very moment, I'm off to deliver two pastel paintings (30"x38") into a high end show they were accepted into, both framed in a conservative 3" gold frame without any mats! 1/4" spacers keeping the paintings from the plexi! the heck with the juror's mat preferances!.........'bluefish':angel:

PS - they are paintings of 'South Jersey Sedges', the theme of the show and I think they look great without the mats, almost 'oil painting' looking!

johndill01
03-20-2007, 10:46 AM
Bluefish, I agree with you whole heartedly on no mats. I have started using the 1/8" spacer, the clear acrylic, self adhesive type, and am totally pleased with the effect. Mats work better for smaller paintings (IMHO) and increase their visibility, but for larger works, NO MAT.

John

Donna A
03-20-2007, 01:36 PM
John, great explaination about the slides and when/why the mylar tape might be needed!

And I've also been using the spacers and (only) a wide frame for a good while now. Is just soooo much easier, for one thing! :-) And I like the look, but do still like, as well, the look of the 3"-wide linen liners I have used for so long----with a 1" to 1.5" frame---and usually a little gold filet inside the liner. Single frame with spacers is sooo much faster, tho!!! I've never cared to use mats, hence the linen liners, which I had so often also used for my oils and acrylics.

Someone had mentioned to me a year or so ago when we were hanging a show for MidAmerica Pastel Society that they had understood the colored mats to be something more on the 'decorator' side of things (determined by a very, very specific site,) but that for 'presentation purposes' keeping a more neutral quality so that the painting itself is the shining star----simply supported by (cheered on by) the framing. I just know that when we hang our MAPS Small Painting Show every November, it's a chore to find places for the few non-neutral matted pieces since the colored mats usually upstage, 'scene-steal' or override not only the paintings they surround, but also works hanging nearby, interrupting the visual flow of painting to painting. If it were a one-person show and all the works were being framed by similar colored/colorful matting, at least there would be a sense of unity and flow. In the MAPS shows, we usually just have to relagate the several really unusual pieces of framing to the back alcove where there, at least, there will be a 'unity' in that all the pieces hanging together there are reeeeel diff'ernt from anything else and pretty much unable to relate visually to any of the other pieces.

The really big barnwood frame on the landscape it does not compliment (where the barnwood WOULD compliment the right paintings in the right settings,) the super-fussy-filigree-busy-busy frame on the elegantly simple, strong piece (which fight with each other and neither painting nor frame wins,) the 2.5" mat inside the 2.5" flat frame that I have seen too often---in various measurements that are equal to each other---(rather than a narrow frame and wide mat or vice versa,) a hard, plain oak frame with a dark-orangy shiney finish on a painting that is lusciously mellow with delicate, subtle variations in light, color, appropriately-used engrossing details and other fine, elegant and sometimes very gentle aspects (totally opposite the quality of the frame----which would work for an entirely different type of painting,) and so on! I'm just drawing on memories.

And that is why we've done several programs over the years on framing in MAPS. And that is why we've been able to hang ever stronger and stronger shows that look over-all great-----and then each painting is able to hold it's own and shine through beautifully when the viewer looks at each single painting. The stronger the show looks over all, the more positive response the viewer, the show visitor will have to the individual works. Interesting effect I've noticed over the years.

I've uploaded the pdf from a MAPS program I did nearly a year ago about refurbing frames you already have to make each frame work specifically with a particular painting (while perhaps generally fixing up an old frame from the attic or garage sale---or something from a frame sale with kinda ugly-finish frames.) Or---as I helped a friend do recently when he dropped face down on concrete one of two matching frames he was carrying in from the car after picking them up from the frame shop so he could install t he paintings. Ouch! We worked that evening to redo the damaged surface of the gorgeous, very, very smooth curve mahogany finish of the 3+" wide wood frame. Good old Art Spectrum Primer, etc. At the opening of the show, with both pieces hanging nearby and the final frame colors still being similar, Rick said he really loved the 'fixed' frame's finish more than the gorgeous store-bought finish. So---a LOT of reasons why this info might be useful!

OH---and if ya hate to cut mats----or don't have a good mat cutter----etc. you can cut out a piece of mat board or a thin piece of foamcore board with exacto knife (w/o bevel) then cover it with a nice linen-like fabric----and it will look sooo much richer than just the usual cardboard surface. There are some great fabric choices in some lovely neutrals at very modest prices. Just don't choose tooo flashy WHITE white, either. Mellow! Or you have a mat that is gorgeously cut, but----it got smudged or is not a lovely neutral, etc----there are some nice matte spray paints that can give a fabulous, perfect new finish.

A couple of gallery owners have 'gabbed' with me on occasions about framing of works that come in. The more 'versitile' the framing is, the less difficult for a potential-buyer viewer to imagine, to savor having a particular painting living with them IN their home----or office, etc. Something framed rather Early-Americanish, for example, with a painting that 'could otherwise work anywhere' would tend to be overlooked by painting shoppers with a home that was "modern" in it's strong simplicity of design---or by someone with a very 'traditional' room leaning to the comfortable elegant, etc. Just something to think about.

Viewers, potential buyers often do not have the ability to screen out some aspect while taking in other aspects---which is why they say when selling your home, remove as much personal 'stuff' as possible, repaint the bright pink or turquoise walls to something warm, more neutral and lighter---and so on.

Framing can really do a magnificent job of finishing off a painting (irritating some times how much the RIGHT frame can enhance a good painting!!!) :-) (We just sometimes want to think WE did it ALL in the painting itself---but---the right framing should work like a great partnership!) Ahhhh! :-) Teamwork. BUT----hey---we were the artist choosing the framing, so---- :-) (And we are talking exhibiting. A designer buying a painting for a particular room will usually make the frame selection. That's fine. We are talking about paintings we are presenting ourselves for show.)

We just need to be sure, when we frame, that the painting is presented at it's best, not upstaged, not presented to toooo narrow an audience (or the wrong audience) and that the whole 'package' works together as an inviting unit!!! Very best wishes! Donna ;-}

Kathryn Wilson
03-20-2007, 01:55 PM
Now this makes more sense than an arbitrary "I don't like the mat therefore I don't like your painting" reason for having neutral mats:

I just know that when we hang our MAPS Small Painting Show every November, it's a chore to find places for the few non-neutral matted pieces since the colored mats usually upstage, 'scene-steal' or override not only the paintings they surround, but also works hanging nearby, interrupting the visual flow of painting to painting. If it were a one-person show and all the works were being framed by similar colored/colorful matting, at least there would be a sense of unity and flow.

bluefish
03-20-2007, 04:02 PM
My entire new 2007 collection of pastel paintings will be/are framed with wide wooden frames WITHOUT mats. Yes, Donna, it is easier to frame and taking them to galleries, shows, etc., you do not have to worry about the pastel dust on the mat or liner! For the nautical work, I use either a rustic white 'plein aire' frame or silver or gold conservative 3" wide frames - garden scenes get a 4" white wood frame and the others, gold/silver plein aire types. 1/4' spacers are used on the larger pieces but the small ones get the 1/8" spacer. Also tried a couple directly on non-glare plexi - we'll see how the public responds.

I tried one on the new 9"x12" Unison board and framed it in a 3"gold plein aire frame and it looks great - I never paint this small but its a sample piece of the board, which by the way, I like - will take it to a show in April along with the 'biggies'!...........bah, humbug on mats!...........'bluefish:angel: '

Kathryn Wilson
03-20-2007, 04:06 PM
Bluefish - on your larger paintings, do you have them dry mounted first? I'm always afraid to just use the spacers on larger pieces because of buckling of the paper, especially in the middle of a large piece of paper.

bluefish
03-20-2007, 04:58 PM
Kat:

I've had 'humidity' problems with paper in the past, but with matted work - yes, bonding the paper/board to a subsurface is the way to go - I like pastel cloth but it's a devil to bond because of the roll it comes off - yesterday I tried some of the hot iron on adhesive you get at a material store and ironed the pastel cloth onto 3/16" foam board (20"x30")- it worked but not perfectly - I'm finishing the pastel now - it will be O.K. Heat press bonding is the way to go - dakota has the wallis already bonded to a cardboard backing - o.k. but not cheap - the best method is to bond to gatorboard - a little expensive but good! I like to work on La Carte in the 23 5/8"x31 1/2" size; put down a anarchival foam board, the painting, the plexi with 1/4" spacers, then use clear framers tape to seal the edges and pop into the frame - you have a nice little package that will easily come out of the frame if necessary. - I hope this helps a little - I'm just an quick question away .......'bluefish:angel: '

Kathryn Wilson
03-20-2007, 06:06 PM
I don't ordinarily work on La Carte, so for those who do, do you dry mount this on gatorboard? It is a fragile surface, so not sure how you would go about doing that.

I have had some of my Wallis museum paper dry mounted on archival foam core for my next bunch of paintings. Again, not cheap, but they will be easier to frame. Will have to look into the difference in price my framer charges, or buying the Dakota boards + the shipping.

Donna A
03-20-2007, 11:33 PM
A fellow MAPS artist had a piece of Colourfix dry mounted for me when he took some of his sheets to be done. Is really nice, but---I've just always used the 3-M Super 77 Spray Cement when I wanted to mount mine. Can even do it once the painting is completely finished. :-) No damage. Or I sometimes use the Colourfix boards, which are lovely. But I so often simply use the paper as is. I've never had any buckling problems with the Cfx papers when framing---even after some years---well, have been using it since '99---and all our Kansas humidity in the summmers! ARgh! And they've been shipped back and forth to both coasts and beyond----and no problems, even just on the paper. I'm definitely in the Whatever-Works school of thought! :-) As long as it is archival.

With the spacers---the first ones I used were black. Then the frame wholesalers I use here began carrying in stock only the clear, so often, I've ended up spray painting the edges of the spacers since I like an opaque look most of the time, especially when I have a deep or maybe I should say wide rabet and build out my spacers to give a wider ledge on which to rest the painting with the foam core board behind (or 'fixed to') the paper. Take good care! Donna ;-}

bluefish
03-21-2007, 07:58 AM
Kat:

La Carte - I do not mount this as it is a relatively stiff board - it's not fragile - you just can't get it wet - since I'm a 'get the job done directly' painter(no washs, first coats, etc.), this is not a problem for me - the surface holds a lot of pastel and since I really crush 'Peggy's' diamond particles, I can blend,blend,blend and not bleed all over the surface! It frames up nicely-

AS- I can see that the AS paper, as Donna has described, will not buckle, it's made to take washes, etc., - fairly flexible - I just did two paintings on it to use up a supply I had, but I just can't get it to hold the amount of pastel I like unless I keep straying it - it appears to do beautiful portrait and animal paintings but that's not my thing!

77 Spray - I've had 'bubble' problems with the pastel cloth - although Donna alleges she uses it without a problem and I highly respect Donna's opinion - I believe that Kitty mentions on her site that she has had dis-bondment problems with her paper and the 77 also - as Donna states, 'if it works for you, us it'!..........'bluefish:angel: '

sundiver
03-21-2007, 12:36 PM
Hi guys. I rated this very useful thread and suggest you do the same so it can go into the Pastel Library and not get lost.:)

PeggyB
03-22-2007, 12:03 PM
Kat:
77 Spray - I've had 'bubble' problems with the pastel cloth - although Donna alleges she uses it without a problem and I highly respect Donna's opinion - I believe that Kitty mentions on her site that she has had dis-bondment problems with her paper and the 77 also - as Donna states, 'if it works for you, us it'!..........'bluefish:angel: '

I have a painting on pastel cloth I did in the 80's that was mounted on foam core with 3M 77 Professional spray, and it is holding fast even after all this time. However, my process of using the spray included spraying both surfaces (the foam core and the back of the pastel cloth), and then putting the whole thing into a dry vacuum press for a few minutes. I use another method when I don't have a vacuum press handy (where I worked had one, and now I have that very same VP since they went out of business). After spraying, I put some brown paper over the work, and use a slighly warm, dry iron to press out any possible bubbles. I've never had a de-bonding or bubbling problem with anything I've used this method on either.

and Blue - you aren't crushing my pastel diamonds, you're crushing your pastel diamonds! :lol: To each their own.

Peggy

bluefish
03-22-2007, 06:53 PM
Your pastel diamonds, my pastel diamonds, picky, picky, picky! I never knew my pastels were loaded with 'diamonds' until you 'enlightened' me!:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thank you for the info on your bonding method - I'll try the double spray method and cool iron approach - it sounds very logical.

Good thread - I hope it's helpful to some people -

By the way, I finished the pastel painting on the pastel cloth that I ironed on the foamcore with the heat tape - it came out just fine - as a matter of fact I experimented by using the reverse side - used a lot of pastel but it held a lot of pastel and gives a painterly look to the finished piece.

'bluefish:angel: '

PeggyB
03-22-2007, 08:02 PM
By the way, I finished the pastel painting on the pastel cloth that I ironed on the foamcore with the heat tape - it came out just fine - as a matter of fact I experimented by using the reverse side - used a lot of pastel but it held a lot of pastel and gives a painterly look to the finished piece. 'bluefish:angel: '

Hey! I remember doing that too! I didn't particularily like the pastel cloth though on either side. Since it was so long ago, may I ask if the product is still like working with spun glass? I can't imagine using the finger blending technique on the reverse side of the product I worked on. It would have cut my fingers to the bone - and way back then I did use the fingers a lot! :eek: I'm sure your fabric adhesive will hold well so long as you don't try putting it into the wash machine too many times. Detergent tends to dissolve the adhesive over time. :lol: I'm not too certain of it's archival properties either, are you? Perhaps that's not a consideration for every painting one does.

Peggy

bluefish
03-23-2007, 06:26 AM
Yes, the product is the same as back in the 80's, when you were a 'teeny bopper' playing around with the 'pastel cloth'!:D I totally agree with your assessment but I'm trying to use up a roll I have. I used my hands to blend on the spun glass side without any problem except the glass had a tendancy to roll around - since it was a colorful sunrise over the ocean, it added some texture to the light purple diffused clouds amongst the orangy, pinky, lemony yellow sky.The back side is almost like working on a light piece of 'interfacing'! I like the look of a painting done on the front side, with minimal pastel and blending, the surface appears like a 'fine linen' when completed. But again, it's not easy to cover - I put a light wash on a piece but it must be very porous as the backing board absorbed the moisture and really curled up. Also tried to bond it to foam backing board via premixed wallcovering paste to no avail - don't waste your time folks, doing this!.......'bluefish:wink2: '

PeggyB
03-23-2007, 03:13 PM
Yes, the product is the same as back in the 80's, when you were a 'teeny bopper' playing around with the 'pastel cloth'!:D I totally agree with your assessment but I'm trying to use up a roll I have. I used my hands to blend on the spun glass side without any problem except the glass had a tendancy to roll around - since it was a colorful sunrise over the ocean, it added some texture to the light purple diffused clouds amongst the orangy, pinky, lemony yellow sky.The back side is almost like working on a light piece of 'interfacing'! I like the look of a painting done on the front side, with minimal pastel and blending, the surface appears like a 'fine linen' when completed. But again, it's not easy to cover - I put a light wash on a piece but it must be very porous as the backing board absorbed the moisture and really curled up. Also tried to bond it to foam backing board via premixed wallcovering paste to no avail - don't waste your time folks, doing this!.......'bluefish:wink2: '

Thanks Blue - good to know it is the same product. I so wanted to like it back then - hey wait - teeny bopper? :lol: I think when we meet in NM you'll find I have very good genetics where aging is concerned, but my kids became teeny boppers in the mid 80's! I'm now a grandmother! :D

Have you tried YES paste? It is archival and holds most art materials very well. Since it is wet and somewhat messy I don't use it often, but it should work for the pastel cloth.
Peggy

bluefish
03-23-2007, 06:21 PM
YES, I use YES paste all the time and it's archival - thank you - grandmother? , you must have been a 'child bride'!............'bluefish:evil: '

PeggyB
03-24-2007, 01:07 AM
YES, I use YES paste all the time and it's archival - thank you - grandmother? , you must have been a 'child bride'!............'bluefish:evil: '

Not hardly - by the standards of the day, I was older than the average bride by a year, and almost finished with college! :lol: Now - no more hints Blue, you'll just have to introduce yourself in NM. :evil:
Peggy

Alecto
03-24-2007, 11:24 AM
Insisting on neutral mats for the purpose of "levelling the playing field" visually and to accomodate flow makes a lot of sense to me. I personally can't stand plain white mats on anything (with the possible exception of b&w photography -- but even there I think that any shade of grey or neutral that's darker than the lightest light is preferable). When I see a stark white mat around a lovely piece of art, it makes me sad.

Art is way too subjective to ever allow for a "juror test" :lol: --
Peggy

The juror test really only needs one question: "Do you feel that artworks drawn/painted/matted/framed/signed in a manner inconsistant with your personal style are automatically not candidates for award?" A nice binary test for the extremely insular. :)