A Pastel Waterscape in progress...

[LarrySeiler]

Other than a few demonstrations as an art instructor, I really haven't done any serious pastel work for probably about 20 years.

I bought some Rembrandt soft pastels about 2 years with every intent to use them, as well as some NuPastels. This past week though, I picked up a copy of the more recent Pastel Journal magazine and was inspired. In fact, an associate wildlife artist, Marc Hanson...won a second in landscape.

So...I decided to start one. Thought I'd share the process with you since I know some enjoy seeing something come together in steps...and not everyone is brave enough (or dumb enough) to let others see a work in its early stages.

This first image represents the most current stage, (I'll repost when its completed)...a 12" x 16" of Lake Superior shoreline on Tientes paper-
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2002/wetmore3.jpg

Here is the way I began it...with an acrylic underpainting of flat values which I then built up on. One reason is I figure I'm about 150 pastel sticks shy of what I should have, so it gave me a good foundation to build on; two...it had a familiar order to how I paint my plein air oils. The second image is simply a second stage...
-Larry

underpainting-
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2002/wetmore1.jpg

2nd stage-
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2002/wetmore2.jpg

[billyg]

Coming along nicely Larry and you have reminded me along with a friend only yesterday that we have to get back to the pastels. As you say your 150 short as we all are, I have about 100 or so along with 90 derwent pastel pencils but often feel I dont quite have the right tint. Another friend and I are thinking of making our own as per Terry Ludwig, I have some of his and they are great. Hey ho, so many facets there art to creating art.
Billyg.:D :angel:

[walden]

Great composition, great start. I'll enjoy watching it come together. :)

[Rick R]

Could you please tell me how the Mi-Tientes paper held up to the acrylics? I was pretty surprised to see that you'd used them together.

[LarrySeiler]

Well..its been a rough week with a new quarter well under way, requisitioning of supplies for next year, preparations for our hosting the end of the year regional student art show...etc., but..I have to find some time regardless for the therapy and calming to my spirit producing provides for me. So, I managed to do a bit more here and there. Nice thing about these pastels is you can just reach for a stick once in awhile...take a couple strokes, put it down and tend to other matters.

I need to buy a few more colors now though. Only have 48 in my Rembrandt set..and very few Nu Pastels. -Larry

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2002/wetmore4.JPG

[LarrySeiler]

Originally posted by Rick R
Could you please tell me how the Mi-Tientes paper held up to the acrylics? I was pretty surprised to see that you'd used them together.

Remarkably well Rich, I'm surprised! I paid less than $2 for a larger sheet I cut down.

I took a masonite panel, laid and taped down about 6 sheets of a thicker newsprint to create a soft cushioned surface beneath my pastel to work on. I taped the paper down as you see here.

When I initially laid in the washes...it did a minor amount of buckling...but responded as does most watercolor paper that when it dried flattened out straight and perfect. Understand that I applied washes with every intention of not applying the paint so thick so as to in any way be slick. The tooth shows fine, and all has responded quite well to taking the pastel.

I would not have thought to do this if some artists I know hadn't tried it and tested it with success first. Can't believe how happy I am at this point because I would be too impatient to wait until I had all the colors I'd like to have. I am working the underpainting quite thoroughly and am carefully allowing it to show thru only exactly where it adds to the work. It does not at all appear to be anything but a pastel at this point, and as I understand now that many pastelists work over some kind of underpainting don't feel weird at trying this method. Could say I'm a happy camper!

Larry

[gmc]

Larry,

This is coming great. Thanks for allowing us to peek over your shoulder.

I have to say, I too, have been unsuccessful with Mi-tientes and any type of moisture. It handles oil paint and turp just fine. But I am afraid of the turp on paper. In the process of trying acrylic and water, I taped the tientes down and all. The only thing different was I had no several sheets of backing under my tientes paper. How much water did you use? Was your acrylic the consistency of watercolor? And did you use any acrylic gel or just water to obtain your wash?

Would love to try it again. I see no buckle in your paper at all.


Again, thanks for the peek. geri

[Geoff]

THis is looking good. Like the vibrancy in the colours.
Thanks for sharing your technique and progress.

[LarrySeiler]

thanks Geoff and Geri....

I will be experimenting with different papers. I purchased this at Michael's Arts and Crafts. I hope to get some sanded soon, try some Wallis, etc; but will have to order that.

I know some speak of the immediacy of pastel...but I paint oils so fast that something else is appealing to me and I'm not quite sure yet what it is. At any rate...I didn't use the acrylic so wet that it was like watercolor. Yet not so thick either. I used Galeria paints.

I'm amazed to see in this Journal what many use and explain. Some gesso heavy water color paper...then do an oil and turps underpainting, and work pastel right over that. All this mixed media stuff to me is really quite fascinating.

I worked this on a gray paper, so that my darks and my lights have immediate affect. Thus, I'm not painting any more than I need to. Just enough to lay down.

Truth is...I guess I'm glad I didn't read and know others have struggled painting on this stuff as I might not have tried it. :eek:

Larry

[LarrySeiler]

AAAaaaahhh....my apologies Geri....I must have selected "edit" on your post when I meant to select "quote" and somehow my post just now replaced yours.

For those that now are wondering....Geri asked about what consistency I used the acrylics, if like watercolor...etc; Sorry again!

Larry

[gmc]

Larry,

Thanks for replying. I just looked at my wash. I did exactly what you did in your post.

Made a soft backing of 3 sheets of old canson. Taped it all down with masking tape on a piece of watercolor board I had. Laid in a thin wash (only had black acrylic) of color using very little water. It buckled, no, actually only rippled.

I just went to look at it again. The canson is flat as a board and ready for pastel. Unbelieveable!!!!

Thank you for the tips. I now feel I am opened to more use of pastel.

Aren't pastels wonderful. Thanks again, geri

[LarrySeiler]

Originally posted by gloria777a

Thank you for the tips. I now feel I am opened to more use of pastel.


BINGO!!!! Isn't that the coolest thing about WC...!!!! Go girl!

Larry

[MKathleen]

Hi Larry:
This is really nice I love the painterly results you have achieved so far. I was surprised too when I saw you used acrylic on pastel paper. Had you done this before or were you just experiementing? I have used turps on pastel paper but never acrylic or watercolor on pastel paper. I have made my own surface using pumice on illustration board, then used watercolor for a starting point.
Thanks you for the progress images always interesting to see how others tackle their paintings.
As always your work is terrific.
Best,
Kathy:)

[LarrySeiler]

Originally posted by MKathleen
I was surprised too when I saw you used acrylic on pastel paper. Had you done this before or were you just experiementing? Kathy:)

Hi Kathy...thanks for the nice comments and vote of confidence.

I picked up the March/April issue of the Pastel Journal magazine at Barnes and Nobels two weekends ago. They featured the winners and honored entrees of the competition evidently called "The Pastel 100".....

It immediately caught my attention, because the magazine spent the time to interview many of the artists and their techniques or approaches.

What really caught my attention was an artist I was fortunate to meet at a Wild Wings Artists Invitational, a fellow wildlife artist of whose reputation I was familiar living just across the Mississippi River from Wisconsin. I have been invited to come over and paint plein air with this individual...(Marc Hanson), but time and convenience just never worked for me.

In the journal, he was being honored for taking 2nd place in the landscape division...and he used this acrylic underpainting method. I don't know...maybe it was knowing him, his work, that something inside me said, "hey...I could do this too!"

Not really an arrogancy I would think, but a sense of confidence in an adventure worth trying.

So...this piece here is my very first attempt at this process, and it may have helped that I had painted with acrylics for nearly 17 years straight. I guess I just intuitively knew about how much water to add...what consistency, etc;

Just like stretching paper to ready for watercolor, I knew the paper would slightly ripple, and it did. I also knew that in about 20-30 minutes, the paper would flatten and I think even became a tad more ridid as a support for the pastel. It worked quite well for me.

I cut the paper an extra 1/2" all around to tape down, with 1/8th extra to assure coverage by a mat. I haven't matted a pastel to put under glass before, so that will be a new experience (inconvenience) for me. I imagine I'll have to soon look for some kind of spacer to include under the glass to put space between it and the pastel surface. I'm not planning on spraying it with a fix, as I don't want the colors to darken.

Anyone want to give me a bit of insight on that kinda stuff would be welcome. Thanks....

Larry

[MKathleen]

Hi Larry:
Thanks you for a view into the process of using acrylic on pastel paper. I'll have to look for the Pastel Journal I'd love to see some of those pastel paintings.
I've just recently rediscovered my pastels-- in the past as for framing I like the Shadowbox metal frame that has a built in channel. It separates the glass from the artwork, but even with the separate channel I get some pastel dust float down. Spraying pastel isn't something I like either, but I have sprayed between applications. I use plexiglas and the plastic attracts the pastel if you don't use a spacer. I'd be interested too what other methods folks use to eleminate this problem.
Also how do you keep your pastel paintings from dropping pastel dust during shipping--say to shows. I always seem to get the 'King Gorilla' of shipping handlers! who's expertise is toss and throw.....
Will be looking forward to your progress on your pastel painting.
Best,
Kathy:D
Post Note: Daniel Smith Catalog has a product called 'Econospace' acid-free spacers that allow you to frame a piece of artwork, without a mat, and still provide a breathing space. I think I'll look into this product as there are times I think a piece would look better without a matt. Here is the url if you would like to look at this product Online www.danielsmith.com

[KarenU]

Larry,

I just had to tell you that you're beautiful painting in progress inspired me yesterday to go out and buy a set of soft pastels. I've never tried the medium before. Now I've spent my entire morning reading and trying different techniques...I love the medium!

I absolutely love your piece and colors that you've chosen. It is so vibrant and lively.

Thanks for the inspiration. I'll be looking forward to seeing your continued progress.

Karen

[LarrySeiler]

Wow....well Karen, nice to hear! Hope you continue to enjoy them.

There is this sense of immediacy the color has. I would imagine their stark "now'ness" might scare some from the potential of pastels...but, looks like you've got good sense to jump right in! The water's fine!

have fun....

Larry

[Anna Marie]

Hi Larry I am enjoying following your Pastel experience I see you are using the rough side of the Canson Paper. You obviously prefer this but I find the dimples get in my way and go for the smoother side.
Any Thoughts?

[LarrySeiler]

Anna Marie,

I guess since this was the first one of pastel in a long time, I wanted to keep from letting myself tamper and fuss with the work.

I wanted a direct, make a stroke and leave it approach, and the lesser dimpled side is like an invitation to keep things smooth. Get my fingers in there and blend, blend, blend....

Not that I'm against trying it, and I will. I'll also try pastel over pumice texture and see what that's like.


Larry

[Anna Marie]

Pumice textured Paper ... I used it today its a great surface to work on but it eats pastels and you have to shift the dust with a wheelbarrow!

[MarshaSavage]

Larry,

It is nice to see you here in the Pastel forum. I always look forward to reading what you say.

I teach classes in pastel - and teach my students to use Canson paper - either the rough or the smooth side. I use both. I also use Wallis sanded paper, Art Spectrum, etc. But - I have never used acrylic on my canson - can't wait to try it. I usually just use the different colors - burgundy being my personal favorite - along with the black.

Regarding spacers: my framer uses a mats, of course, and then adds foam core cut smaller than the mat to the back side of the mat so you can't see it . This creates a space for excess pastel dust to fall into - instead of onto the beveled edge of the mat. If it is a larger piece, then they use two thicknesses of foam core. To keep from using a fixative, I always give my pastel paintings a couple of thumps on the back side before leaving it at the framer. This dislodges most pastel that might fall off the painting easily after framing.

You can frame smaller works without a mat, using the clear "spacers" that several companies produce. In some instances, it then looks like a small oil painted on paper, then framed under glass. I like to do this occasionally, to keep some small artwork that is more easily bought.

Keep showing us your pastels! Look forward to them.

Marsha --
Marsha Hamby Savage Art (http://marshasavage.artistnation.com)

[LarrySeiler]

Thanks Marsha...I'll put your advice on matting to work, and give 'er a "thump!" hahaha...

Well...here it is, finished...or, at least as far as I'm going to take this one.

One problem I had in my limited number of pastels was having a dark enough dark. I don't want to use the black. I tried it a bit, and it killed surrounding color as far as I'm concerned, and I smudged it out. I worked up some darker blues, a bit of green and dark reds to get my darks, but.. I guess finishing this one officially puts me in the hunt for additional pastels to add to my collection! -Larry

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Apr-2002/wetmore5.JPG

[Luvy]

Great job Love that water Can you teach me how to do water? I can't do water at all grrrrr I can look at this and look at this but doing it I can't. Don't know what the block on water and landscapes are for me.

[KarenU]

A beautiful completion to a wonderful piece!

I told you you inspired me to go out and buy a set of soft pastels. Well....I love the medium, but I can't get past the blending and softening...I just can't keep my hands off the stuff. I have got to get over this and leave it alone. I love the look of your piece with such bold marks that are untouched.

I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future.

Thanks,
Karen

[LarrySeiler]

Thanks Luvy, and Karen...

water...it is tough, but it naturally leads one to contemplation. Water has been a part of my life my entire life. From fishing with a guide/father...to open water duck hunting, to a stint in Uncle Sam's navy during the end of the Nam era. Living in the northwoods where we have 1200 lakes, rivers and streams in our county alone.

I'm playing guitar in a pit orchestra right now for a play. Its a far cry from the bands I've played in, or performing my own brand of blues/folk in coffeehouses. Yet...as musicals go, they constantly shift from flats, whole then sharp keys and back. After four weeks every night practicing with the band and the past two weeks every night with the acting cast...I found myself being re-introduced to my fretboard.

Suddenly, old familiar scales and appeggios are coming back, and my fingers are flying.

I know...that as months go by after this play is over, and I have no cause to play such again, that "feeling" is going to leave me. The performances of coffeehouses will resume.

If I ever consent to another play gig...I know after a couple days, it will start coming back.

I think painting water is a lot like that. You have to see it. Hear it. Smell it. Watch it lap lazily on a shore. Watch it crash with force on large rocks, and tossing boats around like small toys.

See light strike it, penetrate it, bounce off the bottom vegetation and sand. Watch various skies reflect off it, and colors of objects on shore influence it.

Its why at this point I have certain skills that perhaps Southwest desert painters don't have. Its why I think spending sometime out west is rather appealing to me if that opportunity presents itself. To stand tested before unfamiliar scenes with brush at the ready.

Larry

[Geoff]

Great final piece Larry.
I like this style.
Like you I feel that I am short of a number of tints, yet I've seen some lovely work, elsewhere, with just 24 colours. Perhaps having too many is a handicap in itself.
I use Unison - treated myself to a 96 box set of mixed. Often wish I had chosen either the landscape or the portrait sets. But LOL it's fun. Wish I could somehow click and discover where I keep going wrong.

[MarshaSavage]

Larry - love the painting.

About the darks:
-- get a set of Terry Ludwig darks -- they are absolutely the best and size is great. They fall in the softness range somewhere between the Sennelier and the Unison.

-- or the "Dark Jewel Set" by Unison. If you get the Unison set - order them from a company in England (Jackson's Art Supply - they are on the web). I have had great success ordering from them. I have 14 boxes on order from them at the present time for my students.

When I do have to resort to using "black" - I go back over my blacks with a dark local color to give it back some life. This also works pretty well!

Let's see more pastels from you.

Marsha --


Marsha Hamby Savage Art (http://marshasavage.artistnation.com)