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Sadgylee
04-04-2002, 06:44 PM
I am currantly using Winsor & Newton Artisan water soluable oils.
I am not that happy with them. I want to go back to the regular
oils. Could you tell me what brand you think is best? What you use?? I don't want to get studio oils, yet I don't need the most expensive either :). Your help will be appreciated. I have a
Dick Blick sales catalog and would like to place an order..but
there are sooooo many to choose from? HELP!!! LOL

Todd March
04-04-2002, 09:11 PM
Hi SadgyLee,

I too am researching which brands of oils to work with (my background is in watercolors, pastels and egg tempera), and found many interesting previous threads around here at WC which can tell you what many of the knowlegable WC oil forum regulars think of many brands of oil paints...

The search feature (button) at the top right hand side of this very page you are reading now will take you to the WC search page; I did searches on indvidual brands and also generic searches such as "brands of oils". I would also recommend refining your search to only the oil painting forum, or the oil forum hall of fame...

Be prepared for a deluge of information though! I spent almost 5 hours (!) reading through and getting everyone's opinions... Extremely helpful information that I am so thankful for...

In a nutshell, it seems that Old Holland and Blockx and Schmincke Mussini have the best reps among the mast produced oils, as well as the highest prices (which makes sense as they also seem to have the highest pigment concentrations)... I also got the impression that Rembrandt users seemed pleased as well, and this is a much more resonably priced line. What surprised me was the low opinion overall of Winsor and Newton (a brand from my watercolor days that always seemed higher end);and the total lack of anybody's opinions of Sennelier--a line I am very attracted to because of their classic pigment choices (ie, "Vermilion, in either Chinese or French"--classic pigments that have been around for centuries... I would like to know what the heck are Old Holland's "Cadmium Red, vermilioned", or "Scheveningen Blue"...?!!?)

There were also some great new and unexpected ideas to come along in my WC oil paint research as well, such as hand made paints by Robert Doak and Sarkana Paints, both in Brooklyn, NY (I recommend paying close attention to any posts you read by Sarkana, she has some very interesting things to say that really ring true...).

Another thing I learned from my research here at WC is to ask what I am looking for and need in oil paint? I think good coverage (a heavy pigment load) is my prime concern, so I am heavily leaning toward Old Holland to start, and am very interested in Sarkana and Doak as well (I mean does it get anymore romantic than to paint with hand made oil paint from Brooklyn?!)...

Good luck in your research...


Best--

Todd

walden
04-04-2002, 09:53 PM
There's been a long-running thread on the improved quality of W&N's Winton line, which I use. I'm a big fan-- I get a lot of paint at a reasonable price, and as I avoid all hues, the pigments are the same as more expensive lines.

Sadgylee
04-04-2002, 11:10 PM
Hi Todd, Thanks for your excellent information. WOW, you did some heavy research. :) I don't think I have the patience for that much searching.

If you are going from Watercolor to Oils, I have heard Old Holland
has excellent pigment, but it's harder to paint with *thicker* than other brands. I am not sure this is correct or not. You might want to ask someone that uses Old Holland.

I don't like the thicker paints. That's what I have now. Many, many years ago I used Grumbachers and it was smooth and creamy as butter. I have read almost all the ads for different kinds of oils and they all CLAIM to be smooth and creamy but we
know that not all of them are. That's why I wanted other's opinions of what they like. I like what you said about Rembrandt Oils. I will check this brand out...Many thanks for all your help :)

Good Luck to you, too :cat:

Sadgylee
04-04-2002, 11:16 PM
Hi Walden, thanks for letting me know what you use and that you like it. I have seen that thread about the better quality of W&N's
oils. Another one to think about.

Thanks :cat:

DaveTooner
04-05-2002, 12:22 AM
I would reccommend Lukas Sorte 1 oils. This is what I use, and I have no complaints about them. You can read about/order them here:

www.jerryscatalog.com
www.lukasamerica.com

They're actually on sale for the month of april at www.jerryssale.com

Sadgylee
04-05-2002, 12:47 AM
Hi Dave, thanks for posting. I am not familiar with that brand :).
Thanks for your information and for the url that has those paints on sale. I will take a look!

:cat:

Sadgylee
04-05-2002, 01:01 AM
Dave, I just checked that site out and they have all the oils mentioned on here on Sale! * Good Prices* WOW. Thanks for that! I am tempted to try a few tubes of each so I can decide which I really like best :)

Luis Guerreiro
04-05-2002, 06:26 PM
Hi,
Oil Paint brands is a matter of personal choice, more than enything else. So I leave here my own.
I use:
1. WINTON (Winsor & Newton)
2. Artists (Winsor & Newton)
3. Old Holland Classic Oil Colours (Old Holland)

I use the "professional artists" ranges (2 and 3) for the topmost layers and WINTON for building-up.

A lot of artists in London do the same. It saves you money. Unless you get a commissioned picture and the buyer is happy to pay the odds for it (in which case use only Artists ranges), give yourself the benefit of some economy. I have subscribed the idea of considering WINTON more of a mid-range rather than a student grade brand, because it has been designed for not only students, but also and more importantly artists who need large quantities of oil paint at a reasonable cost.
Please keep in mind that the classification of oil paint is students, mid-range and professional artists is highly subjective. In the thread about WINTON I give some examples by comparing WINTON with others, so I will give only one example on this thread:
LUKAS STUDIO and SCHMINKE NORMA PROFESSIONAL are often if not always classified as a mid-range and professional range respectively. I have used both and I find WINTON from Winsor & Newton superior, stronger and altogether a better "all-round" brand than any of the other two. Why WINTON tends to be classified just as "students" grade seems completely absurd in this context, I think.
Regards
Luis

Geoff
04-05-2002, 06:31 PM
Thanks for this thread Sadgylee.
I'm hoping to start oils soon, but have decided that I'll have to make do with the water-soluble type ( odour/mess etc ).

walden
04-05-2002, 07:40 PM
Geoff, I used water-soluble oils for a while-- a mixture of brands. To start with, I bought the absolute cheapest student grade (around here that was Grumbacher MAX 2 (that's not their regular MAX), and found them very sticky and difficult to work with, and colors not so great (lots of hues, rather than the regular pigment). I've also used some W&N Artisan and found them to be much better quality.

But, it is quite possible to use regular oils without solvents or strong chemicals, if you're willing to give up washes and paint alla prima. I did that for a while, and I'm going back to it because the chemicals are giving me sinus headaches (even though I don't use much.) Brushes can be washed in dishwashing soap or brush soap, and straight linseed oil can be used as a medium. It does require a lot of brushes, though-- although I suppose one could wash and then blow-dry them. :D

Sadgylee
04-05-2002, 11:51 PM
Hi Luis,

You have given us a lot of good information about the Winsor & Newton paints. I appreciate that. It's good to know that you can use the Winton alone or as as foundation layers.

Dick Blick has the Winton on sale now but some of them say Hues.

I am getting confused trying to compare the different brands and
sales. LOL They don't all have the same name. They have different sized tubes. One *Sennelier* has 34 ml to a tube, most have 37 ml and some have 40 ml. All these factors have to be figured in and that's not an easy thing for me. :) I will have to say that I am usually pretty lucky though to get in on good sales and good products.

Thanks so much for your information and for posting :cat:

Sadgylee
04-05-2002, 11:58 PM
Geoff, if you haven't used oils before you might be happy with
the water soluables. Many years ago, I used some smooth and creamy oils. What a difference in color and smoothness. I can't forget that, therefore I want to return to that type of oils. :)

Good Luck with the water soluables, hope you enjoy them.. many people do!

Sadgylee
04-06-2002, 12:05 AM
Hi Lisa, thanks for posting :)

Einion
04-06-2002, 12:21 AM
Sadgylee since you're looking for a given consistency above other attributes it would be worth trying a few different brands for yourself, see which feels best to you. It's always a good idea to try a few brands anyway before settling on one as a primary or sole choice. In case you weren't aware some brands are made to be almost identical in handling from colour to colour while others reflect the natural tendencies of a given pigment (the better option for a number of reasons) to one extent or another, so while one colour may be smooth and buttery another may be slightly gritty, another a little stiffer etc.


Todd, if one relied only on the opinions expressed in a forum such as this one would get a very skewed perspective on the paints of choice as such a small proportion of members actually post (regrettably). One of the best examples is all the negative opinions expressed here about Gamblin (student paint etc.) yet William Whitaker uses some and quite apart from being a superb artist, he's also no slouch with regard to thought about his materials.

Bottom line for me is this, take opinions with a pinch of salt unless they are at least based on something meaningful such as a like-for-like comparison (like Luis's above); most people who have used a single brand for years have nothing to compare with so really have nothing meaningful to contribute to a discussion of this nature other than "me like"! A good illustration of this point would be a comment like this "I for one have been using OH for longer than I can remember" right, so how do you know it's better than anything else? If one is relying on memory the paints of today can bear little or no resemblance to those of two decades ago (every brand I know has been revised at least once in that time). Besides, can anyone really remember exactly what anything was like that long ago? I used a brand of acrylics in the early 80s that I wouldn't touch today if they were the same as they were then (they're not) but apart from this the only significant things I remember about them are the complaints I had with a few of the colours (Burnt Sienna being gritty for example) I don't really recall any of their good qualities.

No need to mention my cautions about Old Holland I'm sure but a couple of points:
Blockx, although their pigment selection was updated of late to a much higher standard than previously, all their colours are bound in poppy oil which is considered by many to be one of the poorest choices for a drying oil (slow drier, prone to wrinkling) so you might want to read up on that issue before using them.
Schmincke Mussini are not oils - they are oil-resin paints. This might seem like an irrelevant distinction but there are many technical reasons why this is a questionable idea. They also use walnut and poppy oils as binders which have their detractors so again worth looking into if you want to use them and you have any longevity concerns.
As regard Sennelier, although they don't have nearly so many convenience mixtures some of my reservations about them would be similar to those for OH, their watercolours have what could only charitably be called a mixed reputation (one range reflects on another range in very significant ways no matter what some people would like to think) and a friend who has a few of their oils says they are remarkable only for their (high) price! One really has to wonder if any paint can possibly be worth six times the price of another with the same pigment!!!! BTW why would you want a choice of Vermilions when either is less reliable than other pigments and soooo toxic to boot?

P.S. "Cadmium Red, vermilioned", or "Scheveningen Blue" are not the worst names, believe me!

To rehabilitate Winsor & Newton somewhat, it's not for nothing that theirs is the best-selling paint in the world: they are one of the most highly regarded makers and have been at the forefront of permanence research for generations. They have arguably the best reputation for pigment selection (many being the best example of a given colour available) and they were also one of the earliest, possibly the very first, manufacturer to demystify paint by publishing compositions - in 1892!! That said I wouldn't choose them blindly over other brands for every colour, apart from still supplying some fugitive colours (3 out of 114 ain't bad though) I would prefer to pick and choose colours based on personal preference for hue and handling. FWIW I've been making a point of finding out the brand of choice among artists whose work I admire for a while now and there are quite a number of oil painters who favour W&N over other brands, using it exclusively or more than any other, especially surprising when they also use other "better" brands. One thing that I found especially surprising was one or two comments that went something like "I'll buy X or Y brand, depending on which is in the store" - apparently making no distinction between them for the same colour, all the more surprising considering the polar opinions of others about the two brands in question.

Einion

Einion
04-06-2002, 12:27 AM
Geoff, for what my opinion is worth I would go with real oils over Artisan any day. Not that there is anything really wrong with water-soluble oils technically (despite the obvious oil and water? eeek! reaction) but I have read numerous accounts of people who have found them difficult to handle in practice. One significant thing is you cannot use water in quite the same way as you do solvents with real oils as the more water you add the less water they seem to want to absorb and you have to "[add water] gradually, a little bit at a time, while mixing continuously with a brush or palette knife [to] allow the water and oil emulsion to form evenly." which can be frustrating. They also dry at the same rate as real oils which might be a good or a bad thing, depending on your view.

Other than that there really is no difference between the two with regards mess and if you avoid real turps the odour problem is not significant (and if you choose low-odour solvents it can be darn close to water).

Einion

walden
04-06-2002, 07:33 AM
Regarding pigments and "hues": I believe that all reputable manufacturers indicate on their paint tubes the chemical number(s) of the pigments used. For example, I'm looking at my Winton tubes-- Viridian is PG18. The info is usually in the area of the label where permanence & lightfastness are indicated. P means pigment (I think), G means green, and 18 indicates a specific chemical compound. A hue would have a different number, or maybe combination of pigments. If I am in doubt whether the tube I am looking at uses the standard pigment, I compare it across manufacturers. Many manufacturers also publish such information on their websites, which is useful for comparison shopping in advance.

artbabe21
04-06-2002, 10:12 AM
This is a facinating thread. My humble opinion has always been that paint choices are largely personal choice unless qualified as with Einion's & Luis's posts. She knows so much about pigments it makes my head hurt to think of storing all that information, but good for you! I am glad somebody can make sense of it & is gracious enough to share it! I am glad to hear Winsor & Newton's name cleared btw! My question is to do with your mention of walnut oil, and why I'd want to stay away from that.
I believe there is a paint M. Graham that has that in it rather than linseed oil. Also has anyone heard of Dana oils? Made by Permanent Pigments? They may have gone out of business.
Cathleen~;)

WSPCEO1
04-06-2002, 11:50 AM
Hi

When I did my research on quality vs price I came up with Rembrandt Oils. If find the pigments used are all top quality, the lightfastness is the highest and the prices while not the cheapest are mid priced. When I cant find the color in stock I go to Sennelier as a backup and lastly to Gamblin as final back up. I tried Utrecht for price but found the pigments were not very well mixed and spent hours picking flecks off the canvas. I did buy a book of how to read paints, tubes and pigments and which to stay away from. I am not at home and dont have the full title but I will repost laster onight or tomorrow and psot the title.

Bill

Sadgylee
04-06-2002, 12:27 PM
Hi Einion, thanks for giving us some valuable information, as did
Luis. I see W & N has some devoted followers so that means some thing. I am going to try a few W & N Winton, and some of the
W & N Artist and some Rembrandt. I might also try a tube or two of Old Holland. Price is a serious consideration for me. I cannot
pay some of these horrid prices for one tube of paint. That's ok
if you are painting professionaly and are selling your products. I
won't be doing that. I paint just for the joy of painting but don't
have the years left to become a professional :). Now if I could become a *Grandma Moses* that would be different. LOL
Thanks for your information of the different textures.. You have done a terrific job at seeking out information.
Thanks for sharing.
:cat:

Sadgylee
04-06-2002, 12:41 PM
Walden, thanks for the information regarding pigment and hues.
I haven't seen that information online yet, but am still checking
different sites. :) This will help me very much as I do want good
pigment. I guess I want it all, good pigment, smoothness and a
reasonable price, but then I have always been a dreamer.:D
I think I can come close now that I have more information! :)

Sadgylee
04-06-2002, 12:46 PM
Hi Artbabe21. Glad you like the thread, I am happy about all the
information :). I hope I didn't imply I didn't like W & N. I just don't like water soluables, period. I don't remember seeing any
Dana Oils mentioned online. Thanks for posting :)

Sadgylee
04-06-2002, 12:52 PM
Hi WSPCEO1 (Bill), I am glad you like the Rembrandts. I am going to try those and some W & N and perhaps one other. Haven't made a final decision yet. Thanks for naming your backup oils
as well. The book sounds good, will be wating to hear more about it. Thanks for posting.

:cat:

Geoff
04-06-2002, 01:33 PM
Still a great and informative thread.

Thanks for all the comments made about water-soluables. But as I've already got them, will have to give them a try. It can only put me off:D :D :D and even they must be better than acrylics for learning:D :rolleyes:

Sadgylee
04-06-2002, 11:18 PM
Go for it Geoff. They are better than acrylics anyhow! You will
be able to blend them better than acrylics and they don't dry as fast, giving you time to correct your mistakes.

Down the road somewhere you might decided to try the reg. ones :) Good Luck and Happy Painting :cat:

Luis Guerreiro
04-07-2002, 06:53 AM
Hi All,
I went through all the postings.
I'd like to recommend a good reading of Einion's post on this earlier up on this thread. Good advice, I subscribe to most of it.
I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him directly:

To rehabilitate Winsor & Newton somewhat, it's not for nothing that theirs is the best-selling paint in the world: they are one of the most highly regarded makers and have been at the forefront of permanence research for generations. They have arguably the best reputation for pigment selection (many being the best example of a given colour available) and they were also one of the earliest, possibly the very first, manufacturer to demystify paint by publishing compositions - in 1892!! .

Very few people know some facts about Winsor & Newton, namely that WINTON is the best selling oil paint worldwide, and their ranges (both Artists, Winton, acrylics, etc...) rate as among the best worldwide.
This reputation comes at a price. It is important to mention that they perform thousands of quality tests, supplies are tested at arrival. If they do not pass the tests, they are returned to the supplier and I know for a fact that the supplier will get "politely warned" about maintaining the expected standard, otherwise... CAPUT!
Another important point about ALL Winsor & Newton ranges is that EACH batch of paint they produce undergoes a battery of tests to ensure the batch complies with the pre-set standards, which cover a range of criteria such as consistency of the paint, hue, undertone, etc, etc, etc... As I said before, I visited their factory in England some time ago and can happily testify to the truth of what I am writing here. What amazed me is that W&N have records of these batch tests for at least 100 years, so they can compare, for example a batch of WINTON Yellow Ochre made today with a batch of the same colour and/or range made 70 years ago, for example. Comparative testing doesn't stop here and they compare colour batches across the ranges, to ensure they are all consistent and compliant with their quality standards.
I leave here a photo of one of their colourmen doing one such test. I am sure you will find it interesting.

Sadgylee
04-07-2002, 12:47 PM
.

Very few people know some facts about Winsor & Newton, namely that WINTON is the best selling oil paint worldwide, and their ranges (both Artists, Winton, acrylics, etc...) rate as among the best worldwide.
This reputation comes at a price. It is important to mention that they perform thousands of quality tests, supplies are tested at arrival. If they do not pass the tests, they are returned to the supplier and I know for a fact that the supplier will get "politely warned" about maintaining the expected standard, otherwise... CAPUT!
____________________________________________________Luis, once again you have giving us some excellent information! Enjoy hearing from you! Thanks for keeping us informed :cat:

Einion
04-07-2002, 10:12 PM
Cathleen, the question of walnut oil v. linseed oil is not clear-cut unfortunately. Walnut was apparently most common in Italian painting, particularly northern Italian work, compared to elsewhere in Europe and is often cited as a reason for their poorer condition today. On the other hand their are a number of old master works that used walnut that have stood up well, for instance as Titanium mentioned a while back Caravaggio's <A HREF=http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/c/Caravaggio_Michelangelo_Merisi_da/large/Supper_at_Emmaus1_WGA.jpg>Supper At Emmaus</A> used walnut and looks to be in extremely good condition, as I can attest having studied it at length on a number of occasions.

I have a scholarly volume that specifically highlights walnut's poorer ageing performance compared to linseed but I think not because it is the worst alternative but rather because it is the most common. But personally I think conclusions of this sort are open to question for a number of reasons. First and foremost it would be hard to cite the binder alone as a cause for a failing, if comparing it to a German or Dutch painting using linseed from the same era for example, when the specific technique is almost never known for certain. Then there are variations in drying times employed between layers; the quality (purity, age, heat-modified etc.) of the oil used; what solvents were used (which leave no traces we can detect); the thickness and number of layers; the specific pigments used, their quality, how they interact with the oil and the order in which they were applied (especially worth a thought since we don't use most of them today!); the quality and type of support; the use of resins, or other additives; the type of primer, its thickness and method of applications etc. etc. etc. The atmospheric conditions in play during the painting process and during drying could be vastly different from place to place, not to mention the storage variations during the following centuries. As if that was not enough there is the question of yellowing, where most sources agree linseed has the edge over all other oils but if you check <A HREF=http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24732>this thread</A> you can see that this is not cut-and-dried either. Although there is much more of a consensus in published sources about poppy oil all of these points can probably be used to argue its strengths and weaknesses too!

Oh my poor head! Anyway, what this comes down to ultimately is what one decides is correct based on available evidence and if you really care about longevity conduct your own long-term tests, as a number of artists do.

Einion

Einion
04-07-2002, 10:42 PM
Sadgy if you're looking for manufacturers' sites with pigment information on them here's a bucketload:
<A HREF=http://www.talens.com/>Talens</A> have colour tables for each of their three ranges, with pigment names listed with small scans of actual paint samples.
<A HREF=http://www.winsornewton.com/>Winsor & Newton</A>. Especially worth downloading here is the Oil Colour Book PDF file (from the link near the bottom of the homepage) which also contains a great deal of other useful information about oil paints in addition to full pigment lists.
<A HREF=http://www.schmincke.de/uk/uk_index.htm>Schmincke</A>, also has PDFs (in German mostly) with full pigment details for both their Mussini and Norma ranges. Their pigment PDF is also well worth downloading as it includes extensive information in English to cross-reference with, both for their own paints and others.
<A HREF=http://www.gamblincolors.com/>Gamblin</A> have a very informative and well-designed site with a lot of information on traditional colours and full pigment information for their line.
<A HREF=http://www.oilpaint.com/>Williamsburg</A>
<A HREF=http://www.blockx.be/en/ensembleen.htm>Blockx</A> have the pigment names listed for all their colours although it is in a slightly more cumbersome format (strips of four colours) but they are with scans of actual paint samples.
<A HREF=http://www.mgraham.com/>M. Graham</A> have a limited range of colours but their reputation for pigment selection is very good.
I think <A HREF=http://www.davincipaints.com/>DaVinci</A> and <A HREF=http://www.danielsmith.com/>Daniel Smith</A> also have some pigment info listed for their paints.
<A HREF=http://www.artmir.com/angles/Catalogo/oleosmir.htm>Mir</A>

In my previous post I forgot to actually mention any specifics with regards the consistency. "Short" means stiff, allowing the retention of brush or knife marks; "long" means the opposite, softer, more fluid with a tendency to settle or flatten. Most brands these days are fairly short. Additionally some paints are ropey or stringy which means a tendency to form strings when the brush is lifted (just like toothpaste!) some lead whites are this way for instance. Winsor & Newton's artists and Winton lines are quite short. Talens Rembrandt is of medium consistency usually, their Van Gogh line longer. Blockx and Old Holland are very short.

Einion

artbabe21
04-07-2002, 11:24 PM
Thanks once again for all this extremely useful information, Einion!
I do love the way your mind works!! Someone mentioned the Van Goghs as not student grade, but it would seem to me they couldn't be the very same as the Rembrandt's or why would they make 2 exactly alike. It must contain less pigment. I am not interested in paying through the nose for paints yet don't want
a student grade either. Ah, decisions!!!!!!!!!!
Cathleen~

Sadgylee
04-08-2002, 12:35 AM
Einion, I can't tell you how much I enjoy your postings. The information you have is amazing! Many thanks for the great
links so I can find their pigment amounts. I am going to be checking these out :).

I like your explation on consistency also. I had no idea about the
*short* and *longs*. I surely wouldn't like getting stringy paint.
Ughs!


Happy Painting! :cat:

Leslie M. Ficcaglia
04-08-2002, 01:50 PM
Just to add some extra confusion to this topic, don't forget that different colors behave differently; you might decide that you don't like a brand based on the poor performance or consistency of its raw umber, but other colors in the same brand might behave beautifully. I see a lot of artists describing their paint choices very specifically in terms of hues and the brand they select for each one.

I'm very satisfied with Rembrandt paints. I've used some Old Holland and didn't see much difference between their paints and Rembrandt's. The few Winsor & Newton paints I use also seem good.

I also use either linseed or poppyseed oil as my primary medium, although I occasionally add a little odorless turpenoid. Mostly I paint without thinning, though. Murphy's Oil is an excellent brush cleaner, by the way.

Leslie

Sadgylee
04-08-2002, 08:04 PM
Hi Ficcaglia (Leslie). I can't afford to experiment like others, with different brands for different colors! :) I have pretty much decided to try Rembrandt's also. I had put an order in for
some a couple of other brands but they had too many on back order. I know that means they are popular but I want something
this month to paint with *LOL*. You have to wait 2-3 business days for an online order to be shipped, then they take about a week to get here. I have no patience to wait for back orders on top of that....
I am sure that's true re: colors behaving differently in the same line. Don't know why they can't make them all the same..it's a matter of choosing the right pigments I guess. Most paint companys want to stay in the same price range also, which is a good idea :).

Thanks for your input! :)

impressionist2
04-09-2002, 07:39 AM
This thread is really interesting. I like to try different brands. Right now I am mostly using Danacolors by Triangle Coatings:
http://www.tricoat.com/classicoils/ClassicOils.html

because two galleried artists recommended it. The consistency of the paint is buttery and very little linseed oil is needed. The paint is expensive but the company makes very large sizes to help cut the costs.

I was about to pick up a couple of OH tubes, but now the Winton brand has caught my attention from this discussion.

Renee

ldallen
04-09-2002, 08:39 AM
If you are a fan of Old Holland, Blick has now added it to their catalog. WN is my second choice (and is available everywhere) and I am starting to collect some Gamblin. All of these paints have been discussed at length in past forums and can be reviewed by doing a search. From what I understand the less additives that are used the safer it is.

Winton is a student grade and IMHO I'd rather pay a little more and get the artist grade - it seems there is more oil than pigment in them. I have been told that they are archival and will last as long as the better paint, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Luis Guerreiro
04-09-2002, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by ldallen
If you are a fan of Old Holland, Blick has now added it to their catalog. WN is my second choice (and is available everywhere) and I am starting to collect some Gamblin. All of these paints have been discussed at length in past forums and can be reviewed by doing a search. From what I understand the less additives that are used the safer it is.

Winton is a student grade and IMHO I'd rather pay a little more and get the artist grade - it seems there is more oil than pigment in them. I have been told that they are archival and will last as long as the better paint, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Hi Les,
I have my doubts about considering WINTON a student grade and I have indeed been arguing about rising its class to "MID-RANGE". I have recently compared it to the following brands, all of them considered either mid-range or professional grade:

1. Schminke "Norma Professional"
2. Talens "Amsterdam"
3. LUKAS "Studio"
4. C. Kreul "Solo Goya"
5. Art Spectrum
6. Nerchau "Rubens"

When comparing all the above technical details as published by manufacturers and suppliers, with those of W&N WINTON, one notices that:

A) WINTON is the strongest in pigment concentration;
B) WINTON uses only pure linseed oil as binder while others (Lukas Studio as an example) have high rates of bees wax, poppy oils and sunflower oils mixes;
C) WINTON seeks to use one single pigment per colour whenever possible while others compose the colour from more than one pigment;
D) WINTON uses permanent replacement pigments for the most expensive colours which they call "Hues". So do the others, including the famous Schminke Norma Professional, Lukas, etc. So how come these can be considered "professional grade" and WINTON student grade? Unless someone comes forward and proves beyond doubt the fairness of this, I am to consider WINTON mid-range professional;
E) WINTON is statistically the best selling brand around the World, among NOT JUST students and leisure painters, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY professionals who sell theit work on the high street galleries for enormous prices.
F) Paintings made with WINTON alone look perfectly "professional" to be quite honest. A simple test I made recently using WINTON on one side and another "High Grade" brand I also use shows no major difference. This is what set me up to deffend WINTON a lot lately.

Of course, I am not saying that people should forget about high professional grade paint. ALL I am saying is: Use high grade paint with economy and common sense. Snobbery costs money at the end of the day and it's not worth it. I have been using high grade paint for the topmost layers only and glazes. The results are good.

Best regards
Luis :)

PS: Lovely to "see" you here Les. ;)

nicoletta
04-09-2002, 10:11 AM
very informative thread here. i enjoyed all the comments and helpful info.

my two cents is this, when i paint i have something in mind already, i choose the "paint" accordingly,,,,,,do i want heavy buildup, do i want to be more "fluid ", do i want to have just a statement somewhere in the painting...etc...........what works for me is the "feel" of the paint which for me adds to the method of application. sometimes is works well other times i feel not working and then i will change the paint tubes.

generally speaking tho i do use a variety of paints, w/n, rembrandt, and grumbacker and occasionally one or two others, depending on the way the "color" looks and reacts to another.

ldallen
04-09-2002, 10:22 AM
LOL! How nice to see YOU here - I've been on hiatus from WC for a while. As usual your information is always valuable to me. I don't buy enough paint that I suppose it makes much difference financially (although I'm using more lately) - but I have noticed that there seems to be a lot more oil in Winton than in the artist grade WN. The OH paints seem much heavier and more solid to me and (because of YOU) I've been ordering OH (a tube at a time) when I order paint. However, the next time I need a tube of Cerulean or one of the really expensive paints, I will keep this in mind.

:)

walden
04-09-2002, 10:31 AM
I've said this before but it's worth repeating for the benefit of painters even less experienced than I: my besetting sin is not using ENOUGH paint. Unless cost is no consideration at all (which isn't going to be the case for me anytime soon), a bit lesser quality makes me more likely to be generous which will make for much greater improvement overall in my paintings than a bit higher quality, greater pigment content, etc.. When I get better and start selling, I will buy those higher priced artists quality for my top layers, and maybe, someday, when my work is selling for exorbitant prices I will use them exclusively. One can dream, right? ;)

Luis Guerreiro
04-09-2002, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by ldallen
LOL! How nice to see YOU here - (...) The OH paints seem much heavier and more solid to me and (because of YOU) I've been ordering OH (a tube at a time) when I order paint. However, the next time I need a tube of Cerulean or one of the really expensive paints, I will keep this in mind.

:)

LOL! Les! This is comical... I wonder if you're online just now... No doubt I have responsibilities when it comes to stand for OH paints, they are very good. It is only recently that I started to look at alternatives to build up the under-layers and save money on high grade. The "technique" of applying high grade on glazes and top layers is quite effective and allows huge savings. Especially if painting large, there is no alternative to go with mid-range paint. Of course, manufacturers know this fine well. That is why usually only mid range offers large tubes and 500 ml tins. The only high grade offering big tins is Michael Harding of London. OH goes up to 220 ml tubes only. Savings is what this is all about at the end of the day... Oh boy! Got to stop! This cold is leaving me almost dizzy...

artbabe21
04-09-2002, 11:23 AM
Luis, I have enjoyed your information on Winton Oils, my question is why do you feel the need to cover your top layers in 'professional grade' paints if the 'simple test you did using Winton and a highgrade paint side by side showed no major difference?' I can see covering with more high grade paints IF the Winton wasn't cutting it, but that isn't what I understood from what you said.

Also, I found some older tubes of the large size Winton I bought and never used, which have the flat cap as compared to the newer one you showed. You indicated that the improved formulation {was that what you indicated?} is in the tubes with the newer style top & is that true of both sizes of tubes? thanks for all your wonderful useful information you share so generously!
Cathleen~

bowdog
04-09-2002, 11:41 AM
hi - let me apologize if anything i write is a repeat of something said, or just plain stupid.

I've got a horribly slow PC at home, and its just a bear to keep up everything I want. {i.e., fantasy baseball!}

but - i also have a serious need for talking about painting these days, so, I'm going to try and speak up in here more often...

I'm having a LOT of fun these days with Gamblin paints.
I spent some time checking prices, and I was happy to see Dick Blicks are right there with VIP Misterart.com prices.
[i have a dick blick 2 minutes from home here in Ohio]

I've been amazed with my paintings lately - the tones, and balances of colors. I went and bought Cad Orange, phalto Blue,
cad yellow med, quinticiereiieia magenta,a red, and diox purple. I checked around my 'studio' and other than white and and old big tube of amsterdam phalto green, I've found these are the only paintings I've been using. Pretty cool for me, I tend to go off and keep adding colors to my palates as i go, so I've been real happy with the Gamblins...

Thinking about stopping in on my way out today and grabbing some more.

Yeah, the windsor newton's rock - and if price is no object, you know you cant go wrong, but dang - dick blick has started keeping the cads under lock and key! cripes.

Luis Guerreiro
04-09-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by artbabe21
Luis, I have enjoyed your information on Winton Oils, my question is why do you feel the need to cover your top layers in 'professional grade' paints if the 'simple test you did using Winton and a highgrade paint side by side showed no major difference?' I can see covering with more high grade paints IF the Winton wasn't cutting it, but that isn't what I understood from what you said.

Also, I found some older tubes of the large size Winton I bought and never used, which have the flat cap as compared to the newer one you showed. You indicated that the improved formulation {was that what you indicated?} is in the tubes with the newer style top & is that true of both sizes of tubes? thanks for all your wonderful useful information you share so generously!
Cathleen~

Hi Cathleen,

As for your first question, I don't see the need to cover with high grade top layers. However, if traditional pigments are important for glazes, etc, then higher grade paint must be used as normally mid-range paints avoid expensive traditional pigments. There is no choice really. Just imagine one example: Viridian. Viridian is a "HUE" in all mid-range brands, if memory serves me well. If you need the real Viridian, then you have to use a high-grade professional paint or the true Viridian pigment. Some colours are truly unique in shade and undertone and therefore, if thay are really really needed for the effect you're after, then there is no choice.
As for your second question, I believe whatever changes in the paint were made they have been found in the new tubes, at least from comparing my old stock with the new, I noticed the new handles better. Now, what changes were introduced? I don't know and W&N won't tell for commercial reasons. A lot of our decisions must depend upon the work being done at any given point.
I have published here a picture I have sold recently (Thread "My Afrika" dedicated to Angola). Please note that, as usual, I add a Technical File on the painting, so the buyer knows that I use both synthetic and "traditional" pigments, for the sake of complete honesty (most buyers are happy about the use of synthetic, so long as they are permanent synthetic pigments). That picture was made largely using WINTON, but for the central point of it (the rising Sun) I used Old Holland Cadmium Yellow and Cadmium Red, because of these pigments typical brilliance. Also some glazes done on the sky are made with OH. Underneath, there is a light sketch made with WINTON raw umber, Old Holland Mars black and OH Cremnitz and a light underpainting just to serve as a wee guide, using the same combination. Mediums used were traditional, except for the rising Sun where I used LUKAS Impasto Medium N. 5, and a few drops of turps to thin the paste only slightly.
Because WINTON uses linseed oil as a binder, it is safe to mix Winton with high-grade professional paints if necessary, so long as the mixing is balanced and technically sound, that is OK.
Regards
Luis :)

artbabe21
04-09-2002, 12:25 PM
Thanks Luis-----I appreciate your answer on this and understand now where you were going with it. Your mention of taking notes on what you have used in a painting is such a revelation, even if one doesn't sell your work, knowing what you have used can be beneficial. Is this a general policy in selling paintings, to provide the buyers with this information? However I hadn't done that when I first began painting and don't even remember which ones I varnished!
Cathleen~:(

Luis Guerreiro
04-09-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
Thanks Luis-----I appreciate your answer on this and understand now where you were going with it. Your mention of taking notes on what you have used in a painting is such a revelation, even if one doesn't sell your work, knowing what you have used can be beneficial. Is this a general policy in selling paintings, to provide the buyers with this information? However I hadn't done that when I first began painting and don't even remember which ones I varnished!
Cathleen~:(

Cathleen,
Taking notes is crucial. I have a Database in my computer (which I actually backup once a week) with notes on my studies, materials, technical data, etc. Another database stores technical details of the painting studies in watercolour, the following studies in oils and the final proper picture details. When I sell a picture, a printed "Fact File"is given to the buyer with such details, together with current copyright law and an Invoice. Why is this all important? Firstly for restoration purposes. Suppose the picture presents defects in the near future? The buyer may ask me to restore or repair it. I need to know what I used in it, otherwise I'll be in big big ****! (excuse my French!). I have done the databases myself using MS ACCESS wizards. Piece of cake really.
As for high-grade and mid-range paints, let me remind you of 2 examples: Ultramarine Blue and Sienna Earth colours. Ultramarine Blue example shows how much snobbery goes into the issue of traditional versus synthetic pigments. Sienna Earths show what we all are incurring into if we exclusively insist in the so-called traditional pigments.
First Ultramarine Blue. It is a traditional pigment right?
Wrong! It is not! It is a synthetic, but because it is a very old synthetic pigment, people tend to think of it as the real thing. It was discovered in the 19th century and replaced the true traditional pigment (Lapis Lazuli). Yet, even the best high-profile professional paints use the synthetic pigment. Now should we just go mental and start painting using only Lapis Lazuli? :p Fine, let's see: 100 Gr of dry pigment cost... 1,750,00. Great! Let us get a mortgage shall we?!
Secondly, Sienna Earths. Sienna pigments are called "SIENNA" for a reason: They were extracted from earth of the Sienna region in Italy, because of their caharacteristic colour, undertone, bla bla bla. Practically ALL Sienna colours (doesn't matter if high-grade or mid-range brands) are NOT Sienna Earth pigments. They are either other earths similar in hue and undertone or excellent lightfast synthetic pigments which emulate the true pigment properties almost 99%.
Finally, have a look at this painting. Nothing serious OK?... It is just a little simple study, after a photo of cereal fields in Southern Portugal in the Alentejo Region. Not good enough as it is, I might consider to do it in big format, since a friend of mine actually liked it (you never know!:rolleyes:).
The interesting thing about this little study on paper is that the left-half was painted with Old Holland professional grade and the right half with Winton. Obviously, the same white mix was used to fine tune tones in both halves. I usually employ a 50% Cremnitz White and 50% Zinc White (studies or finished paintings, this is my whites mix normally)
Can you seriously tell the difference between the two halves? If you can, I'll send you a Scottish Butterscotch Biscuit and a cup-of-tea by courier! :D :D :D

blondheim12
04-09-2002, 10:20 PM
I like Old Holland and Bloxx the best. They both are excellent and last a looong time.
Love,
Linda
http://pleinairflorida.org

Sadgylee
04-10-2002, 12:49 AM
This is great. So many good responses! Thank you everyone!
:clap:

I appreciate your help Impressionist2, Idallen, Luis, Nicoletta, Walden, Artbabe, bowdog and blondheim12.

Luis, I couldn't tell the difference in that painting you showed.
NEAT!

I am copying these posts so I will have them for future reference
and keep posting everyone if you like. Everyone has good ideas
and I like hearing about the different brands :)